Thread: My experiences with the things unseen...

First off, I would like to say that scientists in general like to see or have some sort of proof in order to confirm the validity of any claim made. I understand that and the scientist inside me wants the very same of any claim made either outlandish or mundane.

I know that my experiences may be attacked from a scientific standpoint of "we want proof" and "your only dreaming this stuff up". Of course this may be a possibility. But from what I know and experienced, it is not likely so.

With all that said. Since 2001 I've had about 400 AP's (astral projections). I came to that number by averaging one and a half AP's a week since january 2001. 52 weeks * 1.5 AP's * 6 years and that gives a rough estimate of 400 or so. Some of my AP's are high quailty expierences, others not so much.

Of course with many scientists (and regular people) are quick to point out that "your just dreaming" and "it's your imagination playing tricks". That could be true except for the fact I've had many "regular" dreams inbetween my AP's. More than enough to give me the ability to decern between AP and a regular dream.

It's a funny thing though about AP's and dreams. When a person, ANY person dreams, they go into a low-level AP and their astral-body hovers slightly out of the position of their physical body. This goes for you, me, everybody.

I've seen many wonders while AP'ing. None of which were "bad", "evil", or "nightmare-ish". That doesnt mean that bad things dont happen. They are just rare events. Only one out of 50 AP's have had ANY sort of encounter with other entities or spirits.

Most of the bad things you hear about when people AP are due to their own imaginations gone awry. As most people here can agree people's thoughts are usually poorly controlled and lack mental discipline. So one thing after another happens when someone is uninformed about what can happen on the astral plane.

The astral plane is sensitive to thoughts and intents. This is the realm where ghosts get imprinted onto and occasionally get "played back" on the physical plane. Thats why most ghosts can pass through walls but dont fall through the floors.

I'll explain more on the happenings on the astral plane and what goes on there in a new topic.

I'm sure I've given enough to keep me busy for a while, so let the onslaught begin!

I'll put a post on this message board soon about what I know and experience and may clear up some confusion about this subject.

If this thread is intended to be the fulfillment of your promise then I can only say that I don't see it.

If you are waiting for me to accept the legitimacy of your proof, don't waste your time. I will neither accept nor repudiate. Religion and spiritual truths are very much based on the subjective aspects of our experiences which may amount to proof for the person who experiences these things but will never suceed in proving anything to any one else. So I can only sugget that you move on to putting your point of view out their on the table.

This is just a small part of what I know and experienced. And I'm not doing this just for you. It's for everyone else who is interested in this subject.

Believe it or not, there may be a way to prove what I am talking about. At least, a part of it.

Dealing with ghosts I'm not sure whether to make heads or tails of them. I've never seen one myself but there are far too many occurrences to say nothings happening. But we probably have the wrong idea of exactly what ghosts are and I find it hard to believe in something completely without definate proof. Astral Projection being one of them.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

When a person, ANY person dreams, they go into a low-level AP and their astral-body hovers slightly out of the position of their physical body. This goes for you, me, everybody.

You've been inside my bedroom?

No I haven't been in your bedroom. I'm not sure if you're joking but in case you are being serious here it goes...

Whenever a person dreams, when ever ANYONE dreams that person goes into a low-level AP. If you need to look up the definition on what an astral-projection is, Wikipedia has great info on the subject. All I can say is AP's are not OBE's even though they appear to be the same thing at a glance.

I'll give more on the nature of what the astral plane is in a little while. Or at least what I know of it.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

First off, I would like to say that scientists in general like to see or have some sort of proof in order to confirm the validity of any claim made. I understand that and the scientist inside me wants the very same of any claim made either outlandish or mundane.

I know that my experiences may be attacked from a scientific standpoint of "we want proof" and "your only dreaming this stuff up". Of course this may be a possibility. But from what I know and experienced, it is not likely so.

With all that said. Since 2001 I've had about 400 AP's (astral projections). I came to that number by averaging one and a half AP's a week since january 2001. 52 weeks * 1.5 AP's * 6 years and that gives a rough estimate of 400 or so. Some of my AP's are high quailty expierences, others not so much.

Of course with many scientists (and regular people) are quick to point out that "your just dreaming" and "it's your imagination playing tricks". That could be true except for the fact I've had many "regular" dreams inbetween my AP's. More than enough to give me the ability to decern between AP and a regular dream.

It's a funny thing though about AP's and dreams. When a person, ANY person dreams, they go into a low-level AP and their astral-body hovers slightly out of the position of their physical body. This goes for you, me, everybody.

I've seen many wonders while AP'ing. None of which were "bad", "evil", or "nightmare-ish". That doesnt mean that bad things dont happen. They are just rare events. Only one out of 50 AP's have had ANY sort of encounter with other entities or spirits.

Most of the bad things you hear about when people AP are due to their own imaginations gone awry. As most people here can agree people's thoughts are usually poorly controlled and lack mental discipline. So one thing after another happens when someone is uninformed about what can happen on the astral plane.

The astral plane is sensitive to thoughts and intents. This is the realm where ghosts get imprinted onto and occasionally get "played back" on the physical plane. Thats why most ghosts can pass through walls but dont fall through the floors.

I'll explain more on the happenings on the astral plane and what goes on there in a new topic.

I'm sure I've given enough to keep me busy for a while, so let the onslaught begin!

See the post 'Belief in the Afterlife' on this Religion Thread.

There are many reports about people that saw themselves while hovering over their bodies in a hospital bed that were finally restored to life again

A former psychic healer (Edger Casey) was able to diagnose peoples illnesses while in an AP and then gave the solutions for restoring their health.
There are books about his successes.

Cosmo

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

No I haven't been in your bedroom. I'm not sure if you're joking but in case you are being serious here it goes...

Joe: what I know of AP, is you can travel anywhere. So you can prove you have traveled, by coming to my house and leaving a message on the notepad by my computer, "Joe was here" something like that. if you like I'd give you some help, I'm in knowsley, Liverpool, england.

Originally Posted by pavlos

Joe: what I know of AP, is you can travel anywhere. So you can prove you have traveled, by coming to my house and leaving a message on the notepad by my computer, "Joe was here" something like that. if you like I'd give you some help, I'm in knowsley, Liverpool, england.

As far as I know, AP doesn't include anything like omniscience and so you are going to at the very least PM him with personal information like name and address. Furthermore I don't think I have ever heard that AP allows one to manipulate physical objects so best that you can expect is probably to read a note you have written on a piece of paper. However if I am right about the nature of anything spiritual then even if AP is real, he will not be able to read such note on a piece of paper or even if he does it is quite likely that what he reads will not match what you have written. But I would not take this as evidence that his AP is not real, for I would expect such a thing, even if it does exist, to be unbound by the laws of space and time so that the room he visits may be one of Everett's many parallel worlds. LOL

Though it's true that if I had the skill and control I could goto a predesignated location and "view" arrangements of objects. But as far as manipulating phyical objects, I'd have to change my astral bodies vibrational density (my best guess) to effect anything.

Astral projection and Out of Body experiences are two different things. It's much easier to AP than to OBE because everyone already does it naturally on a low level.

AP = Happen on the astral plane.

OBE = Happens on the physical plane.

In my work AP just into walls would be so useful. I could view the locations of framing members and wires etc. inside the wall cavity.

Yesterday I photographed a tangled wall cavity around new electric panel I put in, before screwing on the wallboard, because someone may want that buried information later.



As a child I dreamed of astral projection. Floated over to a mirror and met a chimpanzee face.

The astral plane, the plane closest to the physical one, is very sensitive to thought. Think of some camera film. When you expose light to it, the film reacts to create an image. The same is so for the astral plane with our thoughts.

For example, you have a room, and in the corner of the room sits an old chair. The chair has been there for many years. People walk past the chair, rememeber that the chair is there in the corner and that expereince/memory imprints onto the astral plane.

Lets say that one day that chair gets replaced by a bookshelf. On the physical plane the bookshelf is there. On the astral however the chair still remains. Over time the chair will fade out while the bookshelf gradually takes its place.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

The astral plane, the plane closest to the physical one, is very sensitive to thought. Think of some camera film. When you expose light to it, the film reacts to create an image. The same is so for the astral plane with our thoughts.

For example, you have a room, and in the corner of the room sits an old chair. The chair has been there for many years. People walk past the chair, rememeber that the chair is there in the corner and that expereince/memory imprints onto the astral plane.

Lets say that one day that chair gets replaced by a bookshelf. On the physical plane the bookshelf is there. On the astral however the chair still remains. Over time the chair will fade out while the bookshelf gradually takes its place.

Well my notepad has been there for a long long time, on a desk that has been used for the last 25 years in this office, I've written something on it tell me what it says tomorrow. ok.

pavlos, I'd be glad to, if I had the skill and control to do so. AP is as natural as sleeping, but to use it for a conscience effort takes lots of skill and mental discipline. I'm not quite there yet.

Besides, I'll only see the notepad, not what you written on it today for it hasn't been there long enough to imprint on the astral enough for even a most skilled AP'er to see. No dice there. I could describe the notpad and desk if I had the control of my astral body.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

The astral plane, the plane closest to the physical one, is very sensitive to thought. Think of some camera film. When you expose light to it, the film reacts to create an image. The same is so for the astral plane with our thoughts.

For example, you have a room, and in the corner of the room sits an old chair. The chair has been there for many years. People walk past the chair, rememeber that the chair is there in the corner and that expereince/memory imprints onto the astral plane.

Lets say that one day that chair gets replaced by a bookshelf. On the physical plane the bookshelf is there. On the astral however the chair still remains. Over time the chair will fade out while the bookshelf gradually takes its place.

Public toilets must be blazing beacons then, easily outshining all else combined.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

pavlos, I'd be glad to, if I had the skill and control to do so. AP is as natural as sleeping, but to use it for a conscience effort takes lots of skill and mental discipline. I'm not quite there yet.

Besides, I'll only see the notepad, not what you written on it today for it hasn't been there long enough to imprint on the astral enough for even a most skilled AP'er to see. No dice there. I could describe the notpad and desk if I had the control of my astral body.

Ok! So what you are saying is it's not possible.
But you could see something that has been there long enough ok. There is something thats been on this desk in the same position, in the same part of the room, in my office, in Knowsley, Liverpool, England, as long as the desk. Tell me what it is, it must have a big enough imprint.
and stop trying to wiggle your way out of it. you either can astral project or it is just hallucinating/dreaming, being deluded.
It is just one more lame excuse after another.

Originally Posted by pavlos

Tell me what it is, it must have a big enough imprint.

The notion of objects being visible in proportion to the intense attentions others pay them is fascinating.

Try you local gas station or convenience store. Count the cash drawers through the translucent register. See where tampons are kept - that place must have weathered quite a few emotionally charged looks. Check the traffic light: which is brighter, red or amber? Can you see the sun at night through the Earth?

Originally Posted by pavlos

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

pavlos, I'd be glad to, if I had the skill and control to do so. AP is as natural as sleeping, but to use it for a conscience effort takes lots of skill and mental discipline. I'm not quite there yet.

Besides, I'll only see the notepad, not what you written on it today for it hasn't been there long enough to imprint on the astral enough for even a most skilled AP'er to see. No dice there. I could describe the notpad and desk if I had the control of my astral body.

Ok! So what you are saying is it's not possible.
But you could see something that has been there long enough ok. There is something thats been on this desk in the same position, in the same part of the room, in my office, in Knowsley, Liverpool, England, as long as the desk. Tell me what it is, it must have a big enough imprint.
and stop trying to wiggle your way out of it. you either can astral project or it is just hallucinating/dreaming, being deluded.
It is just one more lame excuse after another.

I dont have the control or skill yet to goto your location and see whats on that notepad. What you are talking about is OBE, and OBE's are different from AP's. I'm not wiggling my way out of anything. It's true that a person could do this, but they'd have to be very skilled at AP or OBE'ing.

The best way is to experience an AP for yourself, and experience it over and over to know it isnt some delusion.

Originally Posted by Pong

Originally Posted by pavlos

Tell me what it is, it must have a big enough imprint.

The notion of objects being visible in proportion to the intense attentions others pay them is fascinating.

Try you local gas station or convenience store. Count the cash drawers through the translucent register. See where tampons are kept - that place must have weathered quite a few emotionally charged looks. Check the traffic light: which is brighter, red or amber? Can you see the sun at night through the Earth?

You pretty much have it. The more emotional impact an action has, the more it will be imprinted on the astral plane than the regular mundane action of everyday goings on.

Originally Posted by Pong

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

The astral plane, the plane closest to the physical one, is very sensitive to thought. Think of some camera film. When you expose light to it, the film reacts to create an image. The same is so for the astral plane with our thoughts.

For example, you have a room, and in the corner of the room sits an old chair. The chair has been there for many years. People walk past the chair, rememeber that the chair is there in the corner and that expereince/memory imprints onto the astral plane.

Lets say that one day that chair gets replaced by a bookshelf. On the physical plane the bookshelf is there. On the astral however the chair still remains. Over time the chair will fade out while the bookshelf gradually takes its place.

Public toilets must be blazing beacons then, easily outshining all else combined.

Ever see a ghost take a dump? Not scary enough? How about a ghost that doesn't wash their hands!

Well it looks like I am going to have to ask specific questions to get you to start talking.


So is like this thing you are astral projecting or leaving your body with -- is this like some emanation of the body that vanishes when the body dies or does it have some kind of independent existence so that when the body dies it continues to exist. Your previous posts would indicated the latter but then you were so cagey about what the heck you actually believe, who knows?

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Originally Posted by pavlos

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

pavlos, I'd be glad to, if I had the skill and control to do so. AP is as natural as sleeping, but to use it for a conscience effort takes lots of skill and mental discipline. I'm not quite there yet.

Besides, I'll only see the notepad, not what you written on it today for it hasn't been there long enough to imprint on the astral enough for even a most skilled AP'er to see. No dice there. I could describe the notpad and desk if I had the control of my astral body.

Ok! So what you are saying is it's not possible.
But you could see something that has been there long enough ok. There is something thats been on this desk in the same position, in the same part of the room, in my office, in Knowsley, Liverpool, England, as long as the desk. Tell me what it is, it must have a big enough imprint.
and stop trying to wiggle your way out of it. you either can astral project or it is just hallucinating/dreaming, being deluded.
It is just one more lame excuse after another.

I'm not wiggling my way out of anything. It's true that a person could do this, but they'd have to be very skilled at AP or OBE'ing.

Then prove it, either you, or somebody you believe is skilled at it, tell me whats on the desk.

Originally Posted by Joe(oh)

The best way is to experience an AP for yourself, and experience it over and over to know it isnt some delusion.

How do I do this, can I take someone with me, or do I have to do it by myself, if the latter then please explain what the difference is between astral projection and dreaming/hallucinating your astral projecting. It is after all subjective.

I am having great difficulty in understanding what it is exactly that moves between the AP and the body, i thought i was the body.. What is leaving the body and moving to the AP?

There are actually several different bodies we are composed of. The physical, astral, mental, emotional, and spiritual. I think there are a couple of more in there somewhere I just forgot at the moment what they are. Anyhoo the astral body is connected to your physical one by means of a silver cord attached to your pineal gland (others think that the cord is attached to your intestinal region). The cord is the unbreakable strand that anchors you to your physical body. It can stretch quite far but it wont break or be broken.

When ever you dream you are AP'ing, though most people do this AP at a lower level and aren't aware as much of whats going on. AP'ing and dreaming are related. Regular dreaming is low-level AP, and the full blown "flying around" conscience AP happens on a higher vibrational and conscience level.

The only real proof I can give at the moment is for you to take a sincere intrest in the subject and try it for yourself. It wont be an "overnight" type deal, but once you experience it full-on, then things will become clearer.

A great website forum to check out is this: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/we...ousness-b30.0/

It has loads on information on many techniques on how to achieve a full-blown AP. This website has many other forum sections, but this one will focus on how to get started.

But then again, this could be some mass-delusion. Only one way to find out...

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Only one way to find out...

You mean trying it ourselves as we slip into dreamland.

No, there are better ways to find out if this is mass-delusion. If you truly want to test this Joe(Oh) surely you can set up some bedroom experiment, see for yourself.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

There are actually several different bodies we are composed of. The physical, astral, mental, emotional, and spiritual. I think there are a couple of more in there somewhere I just forgot at the moment what they are. Anyhoo the astral body is connected to your physical one by means of a silver cord attached to your pineal gland (others think that the cord is attached to your intestinal region). The cord is the unbreakable strand that anchors you to your physical body. It can stretch quite far but it wont break or be broken.

So finish answering the question. When the body dies do any of these things remain? I mean we know the physical body gets eaten by worms or something. So, according to you, what happens to the others?

AFTER you answer that question then maybe you tell be about these other "bodies" and what function they play. I mean I certainly have not problem understanding the role of our mental life and our emotional life but I do find it a little unusual that you say that these are represented by different bodies.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

But then again, this could be some mass-delusion. Only one way to find out...

Does this mean that you think it could be a mass delusion?

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

The only real proof I can give at the moment is for you to take a sincere interest in the subject and try it for yourself. It wont be an "overnight" type deal, but once you experience it full-on, then things will become clearer.

I repeat:
How do I do this, can I take someone with me, or do I have to do it by myself, if the latter then please explain what the difference is between astral projection and dreaming/hallucinating that you are astral projecting. It is after all subjective.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

It has loads on information on many techniques on how to achieve a full-blown AP.

There are a few others too, drugs, dreaming, become bipolar, and a blow to the head.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

But then again, this could be some mass-delusion.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Only one way to find out...

And what is that.(oh back to the top, understood.) lol.

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

There are actually several different bodies we are composed of. The physical, astral, mental, emotional, and spiritual. I think there are a couple of more in there somewhere I just forgot at the moment what they are. Anyhoo the astral body is connected to your physical one by means of a silver cord attached to your pineal gland (others think that the cord is attached to your intestinal region). The cord is the unbreakable strand that anchors you to your physical body. It can stretch quite far but it wont break or be broken.

So finish answering the question. When the body dies do any of these things remain? I mean we know the physical body gets eaten by worms or something. So, according to you, what happens to the others?

AFTER you answer that question then maybe you tell be about these other "bodies" and what function they play. I mean I certainly have not problem understanding the role of our mental life and our emotional life but I do find it a little unusual that you say that these are represented by different bodies.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

But then again, this could be some mass-delusion. Only one way to find out...

Does this mean that you think it could be a mass delusion?

Sure, they all remain, it's just that the physical body is a finite one. Just a vessel. Also just so you know, I'm speaking from my many many experiences, I'm not going to refer to anything biblical. Just what I've seen and done myself.

Also, as a psuedo-scientist (cause I'm not officially trained in the methedoloy) I have to keep that as a possibility. Though I feel it's a slim-slim chance of it being some mind-trick.

Originally Posted by pavlos

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

The only real proof I can give at the moment is for you to take a sincere interest in the subject and try it for yourself. It wont be an "overnight" type deal, but once you experience it full-on, then things will become clearer.

I repeat:
How do I do this, can I take someone with me, or do I have to do it by myself, if the latter then please explain what the difference is between astral projection and dreaming/hallucinating that you are astral projecting. It is after all subjective.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

It has loads on information on many techniques on how to achieve a full-blown AP.

There are a few others too, drugs, dreaming, become bipolar, and a blow to the head.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

But then again, this could be some mass-delusion.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Only one way to find out...

And what is that.(oh back to the top, understood.) lol.

You can do a AP by yourself, or someone else. That all depends on your (and their) skill and control of the projection. Many techniques for getting started are at this website I suggest a good look around and see what they have. It is quite extensive the info you can find.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/we...ousness-b30.0/

The subjectivity is not in question, the thing is *Something* other than regular dreaming is going on. It'd be great if I can pass this off as some of fantasy, but I'd be lying to myself if I told myself what I experience was just some dinky dream. I'm afraid it's not. It's much more than that and that's the thing that keeps me continuing my research into this phenomenon.

As far as drugs are concerned, most people dont know how to use them effectivly to get any sort of "otherworldy" experience. I reccomend against using drugs legal or otherwise to try to shortcut your way to a spiritual journey.

Lastly mental ailments contribute to many delusions, illusions, and fantasizing about outlandish or uncommon situations. I find that many people that are diagnosed with bipolar or other maladies of the mind lack decernment that tells a person what is "real" or flights of fancy.

If what I do is only a form of regular dreaming then so be it. But if there is something else going on (which is much more likely from what I decern) then it needs to be studied and eventually confirmed. Cause from what I know, everyone does a low level AP when they dream, they just dont recogize it for what it really is.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Originally Posted by pavlos

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

The only real proof I can give at the moment is for you to take a sincere interest in the subject and try it for yourself. It wont be an "overnight" type deal, but once you experience it full-on, then things will become clearer.

I repeat:
How do I do this, can I take someone with me, or do I have to do it by myself, if the latter then please explain what the difference is between astral projection and dreaming/hallucinating that you are astral projecting. It is after all subjective.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

It has loads on information on many techniques on how to achieve a full-blown AP.

There are a few others too, drugs, dreaming, become bipolar, and a blow to the head.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

But then again, this could be some mass-delusion.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Only one way to find out...

And what is that.(oh back to the top, understood.) lol.

You can do a AP by yourself, or someone else.
That all depends on your (and their) skill and control of the projection.

So what your saying, if I understand it right, is two or more (skilled)people can astral travel to the same place at the same time, look and converse with each other. Ok!( some evidence for this actually happening, would not go amiss, thank you)

Originally Posted by Joe(oh)

The subjectivity is not in question,

Why! is it an objective experience, if so wouldn't there be irrefutable proof.

Originally Posted by joe(oh)

the thing is *Something* other than regular dreaming is going on.

And the evidence for this is where. Evidence other than anecdotal please. Substantial objective evidence.

Originally Posted by joe(oh)

It'd be great if I can pass this off as some of fantasy, but I'd be lying to myself if I told myself what I experience was just some dinky dream.

Unless someone else can actually experience the exact same experience, you allege to have had, then I'm sorry but thats all it can be. A fantasy.

Originally Posted by joe(oh)

I'm afraid it's not. It's much more than that and that's the thing that keeps me continuing my research into this phenomenon.

What evidence other than anecdotal do you have. Anything concrete.

Originally Posted by joe(oh)

As far as drugs are concerned, most people dont know how to use them effectivly to get any sort of "otherworldy" experience. I reccomend against using drugs legal or otherwise to try to shortcut your way to a spiritual journey.

Irrelevant as to whether people use them properly, the effect is the same delusional, illusions, visions, hallucinations.
And why would anybody want to use anything to cause a hallucinatory experience, how could they be sure, what they envisioned, was not just the drugs talking.

Originally Posted by joe(oh)

Lastly mental ailments contribute to many delusions, illusions, and fantasizing about outlandish or uncommon situations. I find that many people that are diagnosed with bipolar or other maladies of the mind lack decernment that tells a person what is "real" or flights of fancy.

So your illusions/hallucinations are discerned ones, lol. This is not a good thing. could cause mental problems.

Originally Posted by joe(oh)

If what I do is only a form of regular dreaming then so be it. But if there is something else going on (which is much more likely from what I decern)

How so, objective evidence please.

Originally Posted by joe(oh)

then it needs to be studied and eventually confirmed.

Which I very much doubt will ever happen, but as long as you do no harm( mental or physical) to yourself or other, then go enjoy your fantasy.

You know those times when you are laying in bed getting all snug and sleepy and your mind starts to drift and suddenly you get some amazing landscapes or intricate geometric shapes and visuals, and you are suddenly amazed at where all these complex visions come from?

How did that sudden ready made intricacy and complexity pop into my mind?

What you are seeing is the astral plane.

You don't need to 'leave your body' to enter the astral plane.

The astral plane is the landscape of the mind. It is our thoughts dreams and fears that construct the astral plane.

We also share this plane with others. Jung would call it the 'collective unconscious'. That complex geometric shape or vision which suddenly popped into your mind without you constructing it, was probably a vision someone else has constructed. A mathematician working out a geometric pattern. Or the landscape that someone else is remembering somewhere else on this planet.

It's a big pot that anyone can dip into. It's where the artist goes to gain inspiration. It's where mystics and occultists go to understand the next level up from the physical. It's where symbols hang out, and phantasms.

All our thoughts, good and bad take shape on the astral plane.
Emotions are the force behind thought. If a thought is attached to a strong emotion, it will take on more form and be stronger on this plane. This is the technique of magic and the occult.

Leaving your body is an expression that means you forget your body in order to focus on this plane.

Next time you have that experience and you see all those amazing visions, go with it and see where it takes you.
Ignore anything scary, don't give anything which appears malign any attention and it will go away. If you give anything attention on this plane, you give it energy from your thought about it.

There is an experience where the subtle body leaves the physical body completely, and i would describe this more as an 'out of body' experience, rather that astral.

Out of body experiences usually take a lot of practice and training to achieve.

If you want to try that technique then plan yourself a route in your house from your bed in your mind, and then imagine yourself getting out of bed and following this route. Keep practicing this technique and it is quite possible that you will find you are actually out of bed and actually 'there' on your route, whilst your body remains in the bed.

Anyone can visit the astral plane quite easily in the method i described. In fact we do it every day and most of the day without realizing it because we are distracted by the body and it's sensations.

Every time you have an idea or thought pop into your mind, you have touched the astral plane.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

First off, I would like to say that scientists in general like to see or have some sort of proof in order to confirm the validity of any claim made. I understand that and the scientist inside me wants the very same of any claim made either outlandish or mundane.

That's life Joe, and that's science for you! And so it should be. There has to be a rigorous test of evidence and proof for the 'truth' to pass through. The reason for this is because science knows how powerful the imagination can be and also how vulnerable we are to it, by it being able to influence our ideas, decisions and conclusions so easily.

It's like that with most things.

We can only know our own truths about life through our experiences and confirmation of it.

People want evidence and proof for everything, God, scientific theories, occult philosophies, telepathy.....etc etc

I can't tell anyone else what i believe to be the truth because they haven't experienced what I have. The only thing you can do is offer up your own experience and if others want to validate it by attempting to experience the same than that's up to them.

I have experienced the astral plane and out of body experiences so i also know that they are an actual experience.

But how 'real' in reality they are, and how close to the truth it is, i can only hold my hands up and say 'I really just don't know for sure'.

I have experienced these areas for many years now, making my first attempts about 21 years ago. Still I cannot say to anyone with conviction that it is the 'truth' and that it really exists.

It exists for me, but will it exist for others? I don't know until enough people try it.
I have studied other peoples experiences and they seem to have similar experiences as mine, but some do vary and seem to have qualities we don't share.

Unfortunately i think astral journeys are one of those things uniquely unique to the individual.

Just as you and i might look at a landscape, we might actually perceive it differently and have a totally different experience.

But so many things require our imaginations in order to make them possible.

Therefore anyone who hasn't actually experienced it are quite justified to say that we are imagining it and it is all in the mind.

Knowing the astral plane, i would say i would have to agree, and that's part of the fun!

I know the astral plane is made up of my thoughts and images and other thoughts and images i don't perceive are coming from me, therefore i conclude that they must be somebody else's thoughts and I am in this heaving pot of collective thoughts coming from everyone else on this planet.

Yet I also have to make allowances that i could be wrong because there seems to be no absolute way to prove this.

Another possible theory is the thoughts and images that i perceive as not coming directly from me but another source, are actually from another part of myself, another I, that I may not be consciously aware of?

This is a strong point to consider. The theory that we consist of many I's and what we perceive to be myself is only a small and selective part of our consciousness has been put forward by many philosophers, mystics and thinkers where certain evidence has proved that this might be the case.

Therefore that vision which i do not know from where it came, could have come from me, or another 'me' all along!

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Sure, they all remain, it's just that the physical body is a finite one. Just a vessel. Also just so you know, I'm speaking from my many many experiences, I'm not going to refer to anything biblical. Just what I've seen and done myself.

Peculiar so what happened? You were this fundamentalist Christian with this ridgid interpretation of the Bible with no connection to reality and thinking that the Bible was the ONLY source of truth, and then one day you had experiences which didn't fit so you decided that the Bible was a crock. So you come here telling us that people who read the Bible as only one source of information among many are all wrong and that they should understand the Bible in the brainless way that you once did, even though you know it is wrong??? Or was that all just some beef and prejudice that you had with evangelical Christians? I can certainly understand that because in that you are hardly alone. They are an extremely diverse group and some are the most obnoxious Christians on the planet.

O...K.... moving right along...

Now my view which in addition to the Bible (more as an experience than as some kind of text book) has for additional sources of information science, philosophy and my personal experiences of life, which does not include any AP or OBE.

The emotions are primarily chemical states of the body and brain, largely produced by the minds interaction with the brain. The mind is a physical living organism in the brain consisting of a self-organization of dynamic structures in the information flow in the brain. Thus when the body and brain dies the mind dies also and the emotional states cease to exist. However it is possible for the mind to die separately from the body in which case the emotional states would also mostly cease to exist also, and you have those who are "brain dead". The spirit is a product of the choices of all living things and in the case of human being that includes both the body and mind. It consists of energy outside the structure of space-time and all its laws and is in fact a law unto itself like a separate universe, this means that it is eternal, but whether it is alive or not depends on the nature of the choices that created it. Thus when the body dies the spirit continues to exist according to its own "laws" i.e. its choices.

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

AFTER you answer that question then maybe you tell be about these other "bodies" and what function they play. I mean I certainly have not problem understanding the role of our mental life and our emotional life but I do find it a little unusual that you say that these are represented by different bodies.

There is now this additional question which you have not answered, and perhaps you can focus on the roles of the astral and the spiritual. What are their natures and relationships to the body and how do they differ from each other? Are there any differences between them in regards to what happens to them after death?

If what you say about the old chair and the bookshelf is true then the bit about the ghost's must be false...
You say that the old chair is in the same possition for years on both physical and astral planes, and remains for quite a while on the astral plane even after it's replacement with the bookshelf on the phisical plane...
In that case in order for Ghost's to be the same they would have ether had to walk the exact same line for years or taken years to walk it in the first place in order to be thair long enough to be imprinted on the astral plane, and would fade with time, where as some apparent Ghost sightings still apparently seen today are said to be hundreds of years old...

Originally Posted by Absum!

You know those times when you are laying in bed getting all snug and sleepy and your mind starts to drift and suddenly you get some amazing landscapes or intricate geometric shapes and visuals, and you are suddenly amazed at where all these complex visions come from?

You maybe amazed.

Originally Posted by Absum!

How did that sudden ready made intricacy and complexity pop into my mind?

From your imagination, we are all born tabula rasa (a blank slate )from the on set of our lives, we are taking in information via our senses. This knowledge/experiences is used by every part of our being to discern our world even when we are relaxing, it is perpetual. Our bodies never stop moving, but they do get fatigued.

Originally Posted by absum!

What you are seeing is the astral plane.

Duh! no. there is nothing supernatural about it, it is just our bodies functioning whilst we relax, else we be dead.

Originally Posted by absum!

You don't need to 'leave your body' to enter the astral plane.

Exactly you can use your subjective imagination anytime you wish.

The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad: There are two states for man - the state in this world and the state in the next; there is also a third state, the state intermediate between these two, which can be likened to the dream [state]. While in the intermediate state a man experiences both the other states, that of this world and that in the next; and the manner whereof is as follows: when he dies he lives only in the subtle body, on which are left the impressions of his past deeds, and of those impressions is he aware, illumined as they are by the light of the Transcendent Self

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Sure, they all remain, it's just that the physical body is a finite one. Just a vessel. Also just so you know, I'm speaking from my many many experiences, I'm not going to refer to anything biblical. Just what I've seen and done myself.

Peculiar so what happened? You were this fundamentalist Christian with this ridgid interpretation of the Bible with no connection to reality and thinking that the Bible was the ONLY source of truth, and then one day you had experiences which didn't fit so you decided that the Bible was a crock. So you come here telling us that people who read the Bible as only one source of information among many are all wrong and that they should understand the Bible in the brainless way that you once did, even though you know it is wrong??? Or was that all just some beef and prejudice that you had with evangelical Christians? I can certainly understand that because in that you are hardly alone. They are an extremely diverse group and some are the most obnoxious Christians on the planet.

O...K.... moving right along...

Now my view which in addition to the Bible (more as an experience than as some kind of text book) has for additional sources of information science, philosophy and my personal experiences of life, which does not include any AP or OBE.

The emotions are primarily chemical states of the body and brain, largely produced by the minds interaction with the brain. The mind is a physical living organism in the brain consisting of a self-organization of dynamic structures in the information flow in the brain. Thus when the body and brain dies the mind dies also and the emotional states cease to exist. However it is possible for the mind to die separately from the body in which case the emotional states would also mostly cease to exist also, and you have those who are "brain dead". The spirit is a product of the choices of all living things and in the case of human being that includes both the body and mind. It consists of energy outside the structure of space-time and all its laws and is in fact a law unto itself like a separate universe, this means that it is eternal, but whether it is alive or not depends on the nature of the choices that created it. Thus when the body dies the spirit continues to exist according to its own "laws" i.e. its choices.

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

AFTER you answer that question then maybe you tell be about these other "bodies" and what function they play. I mean I certainly have not problem understanding the role of our mental life and our emotional life but I do find it a little unusual that you say that these are represented by different bodies.

There is now this additional question which you have not answered, and perhaps you can focus on the roles of the astral and the spiritual. What are their natures and relationships to the body and how do they differ from each other? Are there any differences between them in regards to what happens to them after death?

I told you before, I'm NOT a christian. I NEVER was. I dont claim the bible, I just read what is plainly there. I'm not interpreting squat, I say what the scripture says. PERIOD.

Are we clear?

I am about to go to sleep and would like to travel out of my body and into the astral plane to see the universe and its contents good and bad, big and large, ugly and beautiful, existent and non existent, i am ready

Originally Posted by Sulabell83

If what you say about the old chair and the bookshelf is true then the bit about the ghost's must be false...
You say that the old chair is in the same possition for years on both physical and astral planes, and remains for quite a while on the astral plane even after it's replacement with the bookshelf on the phisical plane...
In that case in order for Ghost's to be the same they would have ether had to walk the exact same line for years or taken years to walk it in the first place in order to be thair long enough to be imprinted on the astral plane, and would fade with time, where as some apparent Ghost sightings still apparently seen today are said to be hundreds of years old...

Dont forget Sulabell83, than many apparitions are due to violent or emotionally intense situations. Though its true that everyday actions get imprinted onto the astral, it's the emotionally intense ones that are easiest for us to see.

Either an ordinary object has to be there for a long time to be seen on the astral, OR a violent action has taken place with enough intensity to occasionally poke through to be seen on the physical.

Some places for a reason unbeknownst to be seem to be more prone to ghost sightings than others. I have a few ideas on this but for now, we are gonna stick to the basics.

Originally Posted by Dlrow

I am about to go to sleep and would like to travel out of my body and into the astral plane to see the universe and its contents good and bad, big and large, ugly and beautiful, existent and non existent, i am ready

go here and read on some techniques...

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/we...ousness-b30.0/

I've been following this thread throughout a nasty illness, fever & shivering. I hoped to get one good delirious fever dream out of it... astral projection welcome. But damn! all I got was fretting about missed work even in my dreams. :x

Apparently some people just aren't cut out for it.

Oh right i get it now, i think...
Most Ghosts apparently seen have usually been through some great trauma at the time of thair death eg murder, suicide ect... and so at the time the intensity of the event could push it through to the astral plane and in some extreem cases, back to the phisical again where they are apparently seen as shady images...
Or something like that...? :?

I do enjoy this stuff, although i do not believe nor disbelieve fully, i like to learn from others anyway then i can at least understand (understanding is the key)...
Apparently this A.P stuff has been around for thousands of years amoungst old african tribes and some original native american indian tribes...?



8)

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

I'm not interpreting squat, I say what the scripture says. PERIOD.

But see there, THAT is the source of my confusion, because THAT is EXACTLY what the fundamentalist Christians say, including the PERIOD.

But leaving that behind, why don't we go onto the other question assuming these things are really what interests you (though your reluctance to discuss them and your harping on how you and only you know what the Bible says, sure is making me wonder).

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

There is now this additional question which you have not answered, and perhaps you can focus on the roles of the astral and the spiritual. What are their natures and relationships to the body and how do they differ from each other? Are there any differences between them in regards to what happens to them after death?

Please nothing more about the Bible, Please, Please.......... Please....
I just had a row about the Bible, Religion and god.....
Don't make me do it again....!! !!
Its crap you know...
Your so called bible isn't even the original version, not that the original was better but whole sections have been taken out and the whole bloody thing has been re-written more times than Cinderella...
Plus it's a complete bloody contradiction of itself....
OK, calm.... I'm calm.... I am...

Originally Posted by Sulabell83

Please nothing more about the Bible, Please, Please.......... Please....
I just had a row about the Bible, Religion and god.....
Don't make me do it again....!! !!
Its crap you know...
Your so called bible isn't even the original version, not that the original was better but whole sections have been taken out and the whole bloody thing has been re-written more times than Cinderella...
Plus it's a complete bloody contradiction of itself....
OK, calm.... I'm calm.... I am...

Do what I say and not what I do!

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

I'm not interpreting squat, I say what the scripture says. PERIOD.

But see there, THAT is the source of my confusion, because THAT is EXACTLY what the fundamentalist Christians say, including the PERIOD.

But leaving that behind, why don't we go onto the other question assuming these things are really what interests you (though your reluctance to discuss them and your harping on how you and only you know what the Bible says, sure is making me wonder).

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

There is now this additional question which you have not answered, and perhaps you can focus on the roles of the astral and the spiritual. What are their natures and relationships to the body and how do they differ from each other? Are there any differences between them in regards to what happens to them after death?

Reluctance to discuss?? Are you blind? I STARTED these posts to begin a discussion.

Just because my look on the bible is similar to the fundementalist christians take on it doesn't make me a FC. I never was, am, or will be ANY sort of christian.

Don't get me wrong, Jesus is a real entity and one of the ascended spiritual masters. That's the only way I accept Jesus of Nazareth, as one of the ascended spiritual masters. No more, no less.

I dont know the precise mechanics on how and what each body does OR how they interact with one another. I know that they are just there. I've tried to find info on the net about them with little success. Maybe you'll have better luck at it.

Originally Posted by Pong

I've been following this thread throughout a nasty illness, fever & shivering. I hoped to get one good delirious fever dream out of it... astral projection welcome. But damn! all I got was fretting about missed work even in my dreams. :x

Apparently some people just aren't cut out for it.

Pong, usually when you are fighting sickness it's not the best time to try to practice AP'ing. Your body is going through enough for now. I'm not saying it cant happen when you are sick, but the chances are reduced. Get some rest, get well, and then goto the website I suggested and do some reading on the many techniques shared on that forum.

Get well soon-

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

I dont know the precise mechanics on how and what each body does OR how they interact with one another. I know that they are just there.

Ok then HOW do you know that they are there? Sometimes information can be extracted when we examine the details of what we do know.

Originally Posted by pavlos

Originally Posted by Absum!

You know those times when you are laying in bed getting all snug and sleepy and your mind starts to drift and suddenly you get some amazing landscapes or intricate geometric shapes and visuals, and you are suddenly amazed at where all these complex visions come from?

You maybe amazed.

Originally Posted by Absum!

How did that sudden ready made intricacy and complexity pop into my mind?

From your imagination, we are all born tabula rasa (a blank slate )from the on set of our lives, we are taking in information via our senses. This knowledge/experiences is used by every part of our being to discern our world even when we are relaxing, it is perpetual. Our bodies never stop moving, but they do get fatigued.

Originally Posted by absum!

What you are seeing is the astral plane.

Duh! no. there is nothing supernatural about it, it is just our bodies functioning whilst we relax, else we be dead.

Originally Posted by absum!

You don't need to 'leave your body' to enter the astral plane.

Exactly you can use your subjective imagination anytime you wish.

You obviously have difficulty in projecting your imagination further than Knowsley to Huyton Pavlos,

Still your profile states your occupation as 'layabout' and your interests as 'whatever' so that's not really surprising

Perhaps Astral Projection is just not the adventure for you?

Originally Posted by Absum!

Originally Posted by pavlos

Originally Posted by Absum!

You know those times when you are laying in bed getting all snug and sleepy and your mind starts to drift and suddenly you get some amazing landscapes or intricate geometric shapes and visuals, and you are suddenly amazed at where all these complex visions come from?

You maybe amazed.

Originally Posted by Absum!

How did that sudden ready made intricacy and complexity pop into my mind?

From your imagination, we are all born tabula rasa (a blank slate )from the on set of our lives, we are taking in information via our senses. This knowledge/experiences is used by every part of our being to discern our world even when we are relaxing, it is perpetual. Our bodies never stop moving, but they do get fatigued.

Originally Posted by absum!

What you are seeing is the astral plane.

Duh! no. there is nothing supernatural about it, it is just our bodies functioning whilst we relax, else we be dead.

Originally Posted by absum!

You don't need to 'leave your body' to enter the astral plane.

Exactly you can use your subjective imagination anytime you wish.

You obviously have difficulty in projecting your imagination further than Knowsley to Huyton Pavlos,

Why! would I want too, I'm perfectly fine using my imagination to paint, write, or act out for my children, it doesn't involve becoming a lunatic.

Originally Posted by absum!

Still your profile states your occupation as 'layabout' and your interests as 'whatever' so that's not really surprising

Did you ever strike you, lol ( not likely if you belief in astral projection) I was being humourous and private.

Originally Posted by absum!

Perhaps Astral Projection is just not the adventure for you?

That's because I'd rather stay of the drugs/lunacy.

Originally Posted by pavlos

Originally Posted by Absum!

You obviously have difficulty in projecting your imagination further than Knowsley to Huyton Pavlos,

Why! would I want too, I'm perfectly fine using my imagination to paint, write, or act out for my children, it doesn't involve becoming a lunatic.

No lunacy is better practiced at a full moon :wink:

Originally Posted by absum!

Still your profile states your occupation as 'layabout' and your interests as 'whatever' so that's not really surprising

Originally Posted by pavlos

Did you ever strike you, lol ( not likely if you belief in astral projection) I was being humourous and private.

Private? It's there for anyone to see on the net, even those who are not viewing this forum

Originally Posted by absum!

Perhaps Astral Projection is just not the adventure for you?

Originally Posted by pavlos

That's because I'd rather stay of the drugs/lunacy.

Drugs? Whoever said you needed to take drugs. In fact drug use is likely to shut down the ability to astral project or turn it into a nightmare.

What a silly thing to say!

Originally Posted by Absum!

Originally Posted by pavlos

Originally Posted by Absum!

You obviously have difficulty in projecting your imagination further than Knowsley to Huyton Pavlos,

Why! would I want too, I'm perfectly fine using my imagination to paint, write, or act out for my children, it doesn't involve becoming a lunatic.

No lunacy is better practiced at a full moon

or astral projecting.

lunacy:
• noun (pl. lunacies) 1 insanity. 2 extreme folly.

Originally Posted by absum!

Originally Posted by absum!

Still your profile states your occupation as 'layabout' and your interests as 'whatever' so that's not really surprising

Originally Posted by pavlos

Did you ever strike you, lol ( not likely if you belief in astral projection) I was being humourous and private.

Private? It's there for anyone to see on the net, even those who are not viewing this forum :

Yes for all to see what I've written, but not what I actually do. I could have wrote I was Chinese, that does not mean I am.

Originally Posted by absum!

Originally Posted by absum!

Perhaps Astral Projection is just not the adventure for you?

Originally Posted by pavlos

That's because I'd rather stay of the drugs/lunacy.

Drugs? Whoever said you needed to take drugs. In fact drug use is likely to shut down the ability to astral project or turn it into a nightmare.

It states drugs/lunacy it equates to the same thing.

Rather than trying to make it sound intelligent (astral projection) give it's real title Cloud cuckoo land.

If it was at all objective, it would have some creditability.
However it is as god, purely subjective, there is not one iota of unequivocal evidence that either exists.

Like I said, until my control and skill of AP increases to the point of reliability, I wont be able to provide any useable evidence to prove that I can do what I say I can do.

All I am saying is that there is something going on with what I am experiencing other than plain dreaming. I know the difference between AP's and regular run-of-the-mill dreaming.

If I just had a few AP's then I wouldnt be sure what they were and prolly blow them off. But the thing is when I had so many AP's as I have it's hard to ignore what is going on.

And from a scientific standpoint I have to investigate this phenomenon as much as I can, and maybe one day be able to provide the kind of proof desired by the rest of the scientific community.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

There are actually several different bodies we are composed of. The physical, astral, mental, emotional, and spiritual. I think there are a couple of more in there somewhere I just forgot at the moment what they are.

So let me ask again. How do you know this?

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

There are actually several different bodies we are composed of. The physical, astral, mental, emotional, and spiritual. I think there are a couple of more in there somewhere I just forgot at the moment what they are.

So let me ask again. How do you know this?

I'm just going to evade the question to annoy you......

But seriously, I've read this in many astral related articles based on other peoples experiences. Nothing I've read so far about those articles makes me want to discount the possibilities of these other-bodies.

So far I've only dealt with the physical, astral, emotional, and mental body. The other ones I havent had a rememberable experience with yet.

Though it's true that the common emotions come from phyisiological reactions in the brain such as bursts of anger or paralizing fear, the deeper ones, the ones you "feel in your gut" come from the emotional body.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Like I said, until my control and skill of AP increases to the point of reliability, I wont be able to provide any useable evidence to prove that I can do what I say I can do.

I'd give up now, as it is something you will never acheive.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

All I am saying is that there is something going on with what I am experiencing other than plain dreaming. I know the difference between AP's and regular run-of-the-mill dreaming.

If you believe that Joe, then you should see a Shrink.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

If I just had a few AP's then I wouldnt be sure what they were and prolly blow them off. But the thing is when I had so many AP's as I have it's hard to ignore what is going on.

Yes the imagination is a wonderful thing, the point is to not think what your seeing is real, that's when a hospital visit becomes wise.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

And from a scientific standpoint I have to investigate this phenomenon as much as I can, and maybe one day be able to provide the kind of proof desired by the rest of the scientific community.

Sorry simply imposssible, you cannot look at it for a scientific standpoint, it has no falsifable evidence, no evidence bar anacdotal, if you could call anacdotal evidence.

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Like I said, until my control and skill of AP increases to the point of reliability, I wont be able to provide any useable evidence to prove that I can do what I say I can do.

I'd give up now, as it is something you will never acheive.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

All I am saying is that there is something going on with what I am experiencing other than plain dreaming. I know the difference between AP's and regular run-of-the-mill dreaming.

If you believe that Joe, then you should see a Shrink.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

If I just had a few AP's then I wouldnt be sure what they were and prolly blow them off. But the thing is when I had so many AP's as I have it's hard to ignore what is going on.

Yes the imagination is a wonderful thing, the point is to not think what your seeing is real, that's when a hospital visit becomes wise.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

And from a scientific standpoint I have to investigate this phenomenon as much as I can, and maybe one day be able to provide the kind of proof desired by the rest of the scientific community.

Sorry simply imposssible, you cannot look at it for a scientific standpoint, it has no falsifable evidence, no evidence bar anacdotal, if you could call anacdotal evidence.

Oh Susan, pulling out the "crazy" card are we?? Because you know SOoo much and know it ALL. What you know is law and you dont need to know any more becuase you are perfect in your absolute view on existance...

Kiss off-

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Like I said, until my control and skill of AP increases to the point of reliability, I wont be able to provide any useable evidence to prove that I can do what I say I can do.

I'd give up now, as it is something you will never acheive.

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

All I am saying is that there is something going on with what I am experiencing other than plain dreaming. I know the difference between AP's and regular run-of-the-mill dreaming.

If you believe that Joe, then you should see a Shrink.

That's rather harsh.

Just because a person has an experience that you haven't had, or perhaps you have but you are not aware of it, and they give it meaning, you call them nuts.

If that's the case then most of the human population should go and see a shrink, because we all have experiences with meaning that others find meaningless.

To immediately dismiss him as nuts when there is overwhelming evidence of many other people who have also had this experience is very short sighted and narrow minded.

Joes shared an experience with the aim of discussing and trying to make sense of it. It's inevitable there might be others who have also had this experience and others who have not.

If you have any solid evidence to the contrary that such a phenomena does not exist and is impossible then please do share it with us.

Until then Sandra perhaps you could practice self restraint and be a little less spiteful and obnoxious in your remarks.

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

If I just had a few AP's then I wouldnt be sure what they were and prolly blow them off. But the thing is when I had so many AP's as I have it's hard to ignore what is going on.

Yes the imagination is a wonderful thing, the point is to not think what your seeing is real, that's when a hospital visit becomes wise.

You obviously have little understanding of what the imagination is and what it can actually achieve.
Everything you see and experience in life becomes 'real' through the imagination.

If i look at a picture or a landscape or a flower, i can either just look at it as a passive observer where it just remains an image and 'unreal' or i can look at each and include the imagination, where everything becomes alive and much clearer and deeper because my imagination has given the images meaning.

The imagination is a creative force which gives meaning and ultimately purpose everything we do.

I admit there is a risk with the imagination having too much control and this can prove a problem for an individual. There is a risk of unbalance with all our qualities.
Too much reason and rationality whilst omitting the faculty of imagination can cause death, a much more scary death than mortality where one exists in a world which is meaningless, dull with limited dimensions.

Such people have inability because of their condition to see further than the four dimensions we find ourselves imprisoned in.

Thankfully many thinkers mystics and scientists as well as many 'ordinary' people can see further than this prison and are aware that there is a real possibility there are more dimensions.

I see those sorts of people as 'evolvers' they are much more likely to push human evolution to fullfill its potential than those Qlipphoth who stand on the side lines poo-poohing such possibilities dragging humanity back from even exploring and attempting to discover if such things might be 'real'

Such people can be said to be more so trapped in illusion because they fail to take into account that, even with such amazing equipment that science has produced in order to see more closely the 'real' picture, we are still very limited in our capacity to perceive what's really out there and what is 'real'

It is this unfortunate arrogance of humans which i consider a disease, where they state 'because i can't see, feel, or hear it, it doesn't and cannot exist' and therefore they firmly slam the door on such possibilities they have no certain proof they know is true or not, without even taking the sensible option of keeping an open mind and a let's wait and see attitude.

What an awful imprisonment that must be!

So Joe carry on with your explorations, write them down and i would be very interested to hear of any more experiences and especially the content of them.

It's a fascinating subject and experience.

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

And from a scientific standpoint I have to investigate this phenomenon as much as I can, and maybe one day be able to provide the kind of proof desired by the rest of the scientific community.

Sorry simply imposssible, you cannot look at it for a scientific standpoint, it has no falsifable evidence, no evidence bar anacdotal, if you could call anacdotal evidence.

This is one thing i agree on that currently it is impossible to prove such things, and the only verification we have at present are statistical evidence of the amount of people who have had such an experience and the comparisons of them.

But......who knows maybe at some point in the future there might be a way of proving.....

Best to keep an open mind huh?

But not too open so your brain falls out!

:wink:

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Like I said, until my control and skill of AP increases to the point of reliability, I wont be able to provide any useable evidence to prove that I can do what I say I can do.

I'd give up now, as it is something you will never acheive.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

All I am saying is that there is something going on with what I am experiencing other than plain dreaming. I know the difference between AP's and regular run-of-the-mill dreaming.

If you believe that Joe, then you should see a Shrink.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

If I just had a few AP's then I wouldnt be sure what they were and prolly blow them off. But the thing is when I had so many AP's as I have it's hard to ignore what is going on.

Yes the imagination is a wonderful thing, the point is to not think what your seeing is real, that's when a hospital visit becomes wise.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

And from a scientific standpoint I have to investigate this phenomenon as much as I can, and maybe one day be able to provide the kind of proof desired by the rest of the scientific community.

Sorry simply imposssible, you cannot look at it for a scientific standpoint, it has no falsifable evidence, no evidence bar anacdotal, if you could call anacdotal evidence.

Oh Susan, pulling out the "crazy" card are we?

Do you seriously believe with no evidence whatsoever, that what you think you've experienced, will ever be able to be proven. If you're that delusional then your only recourse is to see a doctor, I'm just stating fact. If you feel hurt, everbody who's ever been told there losing it, has got hurt by being told.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Because you know SOoo much and know it ALL. What you know is law

Facts usually are.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

and you dont need to know any more becuase you are perfect in your absolute view on existance...
Kiss off-

anything which does not have a objective basis to it can be dismissed as rubbish, this includes belief in god, fairies, elves, unicorns or anything else that's purely subjective.

Originally Posted by Absum!

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Like I said, until my control and skill of AP increases to the point of reliability, I wont be able to provide any useable evidence to prove that I can do what I say I can do.

I'd give up now, as it is something you will never acheive.

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

All I am saying is that there is something going on with what I am experiencing other than plain dreaming. I know the difference between AP's and regular run-of-the-mill dreaming.

If you believe that Joe, then you should see a Shrink.

That's rather harsh.

Just because a person has an experience that you haven't had, or perhaps you have but you are not aware of it, and they give it meaning, you call them nuts.

I never said he was nuts, I just suggest seeing a shrink, it's for the shrink to decide whether he's insane or not, I just stated facts.
Unless you know of someway for him to prove astral projection is real.

Originally Posted by Absum!

If that's the case then most of the human population should go and see a shrink,

And they are, but unfortunately we allow it to go unchecked, because the majority suffer from the same delusions.

Originally Posted by Absum!

because we all have experiences with meaning that others find meaningless.

To immediately dismiss him as nuts when there is overwhelming evidence of many other people who have also had this experience

Sorry logical fallacy: an appeal to popularity.

Originally Posted by Absum!

is very short sighted and narrow minded.

Sorry it is the opposite actually, he is single mindedly following his course of belief without looking at the real picture. Hence why he should see a shrink.

Originally Posted by Absum!

Joes shared an experience with the aim of discussing and trying to make sense of it. It's inevitable there might be others who have also had this experience and others who have not.

Other people have heard or read about astral projection and convinced themselves what they experienced is the same it happens in all delusional and subjective beliefs, talking to God, alien abduction, etc...

Originally Posted by Absum!

If you have any solid evidence to the contrary that such a phenomena does not exist and is impossible then please do share it with us.

The onus is on the claimant, I make no such claim. It is nonsensical to demand proof of non-existence.

Originally Posted by Absum!

Until then Sandra perhaps you could practice self restraint and be a little less spiteful and obnoxious in your remarks.

Who's Sandra, (Freudien slip). Just stating facts.

Originally Posted by Absum!

Originally Posted by susan

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

If I just had a few AP's then I wouldnt be sure what they were and prolly blow them off. But the thing is when I had so many AP's as I have it's hard to ignore what is going on.

Yes the imagination is a wonderful thing, the point is to not think what your seeing is real, that's when a hospital visit becomes wise.

You obviously have little understanding of what the imagination is and what it can actually achieve.
Everything you see and experience in life becomes 'real' through the imagination.

Oh does it, so all objective things never existed until someone imagined them, Wow I never knew that!
I just imagined a red polka dotted gorilla with eight arms and three tongues. Do you see any anywhere. Because they must exist.

Originally Posted by Absum!

If i look at a picture or a landscape or a flower, i can either just look at it as a passive observer where it just remains an image and 'unreal' or i can look at each and include the imagination, where everything becomes alive and much clearer and deeper because my imagination has given the images meaning.

As I said the subjective imagination is a wonderful thing, but it should not be allowed to invade your objective mind and control your reality, thats when you need a doctor. The insane asylums are littered with people who went too far.

Originally Posted by Absum!

The imagination is a creative force which gives meaning and ultimately purpose everything we do.

Wrong, it is a tool we use in ever aspect of our lives.

Originally Posted by Absum!

I admit there is a risk with the imagination having too much control and this can prove a problem for an individual. There is a risk of unbalance with all our qualities.
Too much reason and rationality whilst omitting the faculty of imagination can cause death, a much more scary death than mortality where one exists in a world which is meaningless, dull with limited dimensions.

Who lives in a world like that, no human thats for sure.

Originally Posted by Absum!

Such people have inability because of their condition to see further than the four dimensions we find ourselves imprisoned in.

How many dimensions. The fourth dimension hypothosis is one that is purely based in time, physics, maths, it is not one that can effect our plane of existence.

Originally Posted by Absum!

Thankfully many thinkers mystics and scientists as well as many 'ordinary' people can see further than this prison and are aware that there is a real possibility there are more dimensions.

Yes there is the possiblity of a lot of things. Theres the possiblity of a red polka dotted gorilla with eight arms and three tongues. no one is denying the possiblity.
But to actually believe in such things, before they find evidence is foolish in the extreme. It's knowing where the boundary line is.

Originally Posted by Absum!

I see those sorts of people as 'evolvers' they are much more likely to push human evolution to fullfill its potential than those Qlipphoth who stand on the side lines poo-poohing such possibilities dragging humanity back from even exploring and attempting to discover if such things might be 'real'

Such people can be said to be more so trapped in illusion because they fail to take into account that, even with such amazing equipment that science has produced in order to see more closely the 'real' picture, we are still very limited in our capacity to perceive what's really out there and what is 'real'

It is this unfortunate arrogance of humans which i consider a disease, where they state 'because i can't see, feel, or hear it, it doesn't and cannot exist' and therefore they firmly slam the door on such possibilities they have no certain proof they know is true or not, without even taking the sensible option of keeping an open mind and a let's wait and see attitude.

what you see as slamming the door, I see as leaving the door slighty ajar, there are no absolutes, it would be extreme foolish to believe there were.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

First off, I would like to say that scientists in general like to see or have some sort of proof in order to confirm the validity of any claim made. I understand that and the scientist inside me wants the very same of any claim made either outlandish or mundane.

This is because it would be foolish, to believe otherwise.
I will give you a million dollars as will james randi http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/

So thats two million, if you can come up with one iota of solid evidence, for this fantasy.

Originally Posted by geezer

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

First off, I would like to say that scientists in general like to see or have some sort of proof in order to confirm the validity of any claim made. I understand that and the scientist inside me wants the very same of any claim made either outlandish or mundane.

This is because it would be foolish, to believe otherwise.
I will give you a million dollars as will james randi http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/

So thats two million, if you can come up with one iota of solid evidence, for this fantasy.

I've heard of this "challenge" before. Even if I provided repeatable provable results, Randi would find some way of weaseling out of the bargin with some "oh that isnt supernatural cause <insert weasel excuse here>". Becuase Randi would never be satisfied with what he saw. How about that for subjectivity?

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Originally Posted by geezer

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

First off, I would like to say that scientists in general like to see or have some sort of proof in order to confirm the validity of any claim made. I understand that and the scientist inside me wants the very same of any claim made either outlandish or mundane.

This is because it would be foolish, to believe otherwise.
I will give you a million dollars as will james randi http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/

So thats two million, if you can come up with one iota of solid evidence, for this fantasy.

I've heard of this "challenge" before. Even if I provided repeatable provable results, Randi would find some way of weaseling out of the bargin with some "oh that isnt supernatural cause <insert weasel excuse here>". Becuase Randi would never be satisfied with what he saw. How about that for subjectivity?

But I'm not randi, You can try to convince me. Having said that, I very much doubt you will.
So I think my million is safe too.
incidentally a factual reason for refusing to give someone the money cannot be deemed as weaseling out.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

I've heard of this "challenge" before. Even if I provided repeatable provable results, ...

"provide repeatable provable results"? Their bet that you cannot provide any such thing is a safe one that I would bank my money on. If you claimed to be able to do this I would be the first to scoff.

This is why I demand no such thing. What would be the point of demanding something I know with certainty that you cannot provide. Instead what you have provided is EXACTLY what I would have expected for it is the same as every religion on the planet, and that is simply a suggestion that people try it themselves and see if it works for them.

Originally Posted by Joe(Oh)

Even if I provided repeatable provable results, Randi would find some way of weaseling out of the bargin with some "oh that isnt supernatural cause <insert weasel excuse here>". Becuase Randi would never be satisfied with what he saw. How about that for subjectivity?

Randi may indeed be subjective in his skepticism especially if he demands proof, but if he demands repeatable proceedures then his demand is the very definition of objectivity, and there is no weasling out of such. That is the secret behind the success of science.

Any scientist would find the same thing and that is that your "repeatable provable resuts" are not repeatable results let alone provable. This is something that science excells at for this is its business. For the provable you would have to go to mathematics but in the case of repeatable results, science can tell you an enormous quanty of things that meet that criterion.

Yet I do not conclude from this that the experiences and the knowledge you claim to have gained from it are bogus. This is because I do not believe that what is knowable by means of provable or repeatable procedures is the sum total of reality.

Many of the greatest past thinkers and explorers who have made breakthroughs and given mankind a wider understanding of the universe and his inners self have been labeled mad.

Thank goodness they never accepted this label and continued with their explorations.

People ridicule others because they are terrified someone might point out to them that there is more to life than their limited perception of it.

What a shame for those people who turn their back on the potential and possibilities of human consciousness.

It must be a very lonely, dull, mediocre and isolated world in which to live.