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Thread: ISLAM.... The Debate

  1. #1 ISLAM.... The Debate 
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    Hello
    In this topic I will try to prove that Islam is the truth . There will be no probaganda as in the previous threads . I remember There was a thread called "What do you think of Islam" and the discussion went to a different side < and i posted there that i will begin a thread in which i will prove that Islam is true . I think many people here know me and that I am a poster here in tha forum , I will not put a huge article and disappear. So, Will you join the debate?


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    Let's start by defining truth so that we don't run into any misunderstandings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    Truth:

    1 aarchaic : fidelity, constancy b: sincerity in action, character, and utterance
    2 a (1): the state of being the case : fact (2): the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3)often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b: a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics> c: the body of true statements and propositions
    3 a: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality bchiefly British : true 2 c: fidelity to an original or to a standard
    4capitalized Christian Science : god
    — in truth : in accordance with fact : actually
    Now we can proceed with you providing evidence and logical sound arguments, all consistent (because consistancy is a virtue) so we can explore the statement "Islam is truth".

    Why do you believe Islam to be truth?

    EDIT:

    I think it's fair to consider "Truth" and "Fact" to be basically the same thing. Unless there are any objections.


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  4. #3  
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    Raed, I'm not going to take sides but I'll clobber anyone who's simply venting hate here.



    Obviously, that quoted definition of "truth" turned out more various than our collection of philosophers would ever imagine on their own.

    I guess what Raed means by "Islam is the truth" is "Islam is right to believe". That's the point, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Obviously, that quoted definition of "truth" turned out more various than our collection of philosophers would ever imagine on their own.
    Apologies, forgot to "bolden up" some parts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I guess what Raed means by "Islam is the truth" is "Islam is right to believe". That's the point, right?
    I don't know what you mean by "right to believe" but I am expecting him to attempt to prove (1) that God exists, based on objective evidence, and (2) that Islam is preferable to any other religion, based on objective evidence.
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  7. #6  
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    I suspect Pong means: "Correct to believe"
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    I think that we all can guess where this will thread go once rahed will post
    his "proof" on the unproofable entity which is "God".

    It will go something like this I assume:


    raed: blah blah blah blah blah, Islam is the truth!

    we: no it's not, prove it!

    raed: *some lame excuse which has no basis on truth*.

    we: that's not true!

    raed: *repeating the lame excuse*

    we: wtf?!

    raed: infedels!

    we: wth?!!

    And it goes on and on for serval pages at most... :?
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  9. #8 Re: ISLAM.... The Debate 
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    Quote Originally Posted by raed
    In this topic I will try to prove that Islam is the truth .
    First of all, Islam according to who? I hope you do not expect us to believe that all members of Islam agree on what is Islam and what is this truth?

    Second I have a problem with saying something is the truth, because of the ambiguity in the something it refers to and the ambiguity revealed by asking truth about what? But even given that you simply mean that it is true in regards to what it says, truth is still something that typically applies to a statement not an institution, but this is no problem if you are talking about a minimalist position such as the statement, "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His prophet." A discussion of the truth value of this statement might be manageable.

    Lets break it down:

    "There is no God but Allah"
    Well "Allah" is the arabic word for God and so I would hope that we are not going to understand this as saying that the arabic God is the only God. Some Muslims seem to be saying exactly that when they try to make "Allah" out to be some supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. Others see this representing the unnamed transcendent and omnipotent creator of the universe and understand this phrase "There is no God but Allah" to mean something like "there are none worthy of worship except God", which is certainly a statement that I have no problem with, subject to a further discussion as to what worship means and what it consists of.


    Now the second half: "Mohammed is His prophet."

    What does prophet mean?
    proph·et (prft)
    n.
    1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
    2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
    3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
    4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.
    I suspect something like number 1 is meant, and in response to that I must make a further distinction between three possible understandings of this. One is that a prophet is someone who speaks for God, second is someone through whom God speaks, and third is someone whom God uses to speak to all.

    The first I do not believe in. It is a lie perpetrated by manipulators who apparently do not believe that God can speak for Himself. No one speaks for God.

    The second I believe is true of everyone. If we have the ears to hear it, God can and will speak to us through the greatest teacher, through the humblest child, and even through the mouth of our "enemy".

    The third is therefore the most reasonable meaning for the word prophet and it refers to scripture or writings of authority which God has given man as his general guide to all as the means by which they can seek the truth. But then the problem is that there is considerable disagreement among those who believe that there is such scripture about what writings have this authority. For Islam the writings with authority is the Quran, and since these are the words of Mohammed, the phrase may mean no more than this claim that the Quran is scripture. But before the Quran was written there are many other writings considered scripture by other peoples. For example, for the Hindus scripture is the Bhagavad Gita. For the Jews it is the Torah. Christians add the New Testament to the Torah and call it the Bible. In addition there are later groups making different writings their scripture possibly as an addition to one of these others.

    Since I think it is most likely the third which is meant by "Mohammed is His prophet" or "Mohammed is His messenger" as it is sometimes written, then I don't think you can succeed in proving that "Islam is the truth" for none of these groups can prove their claims that their scripture is the one true message from God to all mankind. As a Christian I certainly believe something similar, that the Bible is the word of God, but I certainly would not claim that I can prove such a thing.

    The Bible is what I know to be the word of God and I have made a committment that I will steadfastly point to it as such. And the most important reason is simply to deny that I speak for God myself, and so it is to the Bible I point to as my inspiration to where people can go to see if there is any truth in what I say. But I have also made some committment to the principles of pluralism and so I will repudiate an exclusivist interpretation of my assertion as meaning any kind of denial of the claims of others as if I had some authority to say that God cannot speak to mankind as a whole, however and in as many ways as He chooses.
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  10. #9 Re: ISLAM.... The Debate 
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    Quote Originally Posted by raed
    Hello
    In this topic I will try to prove that Islam is the truth . There will be no probaganda as in the previous threads . I remember There was a thread called "What do you think of Islam" and the discussion went to a different side < and i posted there that i will begin a thread in which i will prove that Islam is true . I think many people here know me and that I am a poster here in tha forum , I will not put a huge article and disappear. So, Will you join the debate?
    As long as you don't trudge down the road of absolutism and indoctrination, you'll find good debate.

    Please explain why Islam supports lying, killing and going to war, and then claims to be a religion of peace?
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  11. #10 Re: ISLAM.... The Debate 
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    Quote Originally Posted by raed
    Hello
    In this topic I will try to prove that Islam is the truth.
    Proving that Islam is the sole truth will be a futile attempt.

    First of all religion by virtue of its nature due with unprovable entities and phenomenal such as God and miracles. By conventional logic these claims are not less verifiable than the claim that unicorns exist. The only way to substantiate these claims is either true faith or subjective experience. There can be no objective conclusions drawn on the issues pertaining to religion, more so in the relation to other religion.

    Secondly Islam is the truth with respect to what? If you are comparing Islam to Christianity and other religions, and trying to debunk all the other religions, you still have not proven that Islam is the truth. The other more common approach I encountered is by trying to pick out verses from the Quran that has some resemblance to modern science, and saying that "Hey! The Quran is God's work because thousands of years ago people wouldn't have known that cloud generates electricity!" Blah blah blah. I find this extremely lame as more often than these verses are taken out of context.

    Faith and subjective experiences being the only rational means for one to adopt any religion, religion inherently cannot be proved or disproved. Truth, along with rationality, is relative in this sense. What is true or rational for one religion might not be so for another. Likewise, this is the fundamental problem between atheist and theist where one party tries to impose their beliefs onto another - it is just empty arguments.
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  12. #11 Re: ISLAM.... The Debate 
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    @arkofnoah. I guess we're watching from the same bleacher. Have some popcorn.



    @mitchellmckain. Maybe better let your opponent make the first move.

    "Islam is the truth"
    Come on we all know what this means. We understand Raed's motive. Let's not start semantics now.

    "There is no God but Allah"
    Doesn't that suggest monotheism? I believe the point is there is only one God, and this God has some defining characteristics we shall set under the title "Allah".

    "Mohammed is His prophet."
    The final words about this God came from Mohammed. So heed Mohammed not some other prophet.
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