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Without even bothering to explain how the subject got to this, this is an excerpt from an MSN conversation I just had with an online friend. I'd be curious to hear any opinions/back up for either side from anybody willing to read it. Thanks.
Matt says:
let's not get into that
Michael says:
but God will never leave you or forsake you
Michael says:
he always loves you
Matt says:
<<real name stated... censored>>
Michael says:
no matter what you fo
Michael says:
do
Michael says:
*
Michael says:
seriously it's just that it really seems like He's really trying to speak to you
Matt says:
<<real name stated... censored>> i don't beleive in higher beings.
Michael says:
I mean look at the philosophy behing Christianity
Michael says:
do you have a problem with it?
Matt says:
honestly you're making me feel uncomfortable here, embarassed
Michael says:
why?
Matt says:
to answer truthfully would offend you
Matt says:
I don't think we should even get into religion.
Michael says:
sorry, I am not trying to be preachy I really feel it would add so much to your life..give you more purpose and fullfillment
Michael says:
I don't want to bombard you though that was not the intent
Matt says:
Well then I simply respectfully disagree.
Matt says:
And I view other things in life as being more important than spirituality.
Michael says:
what is the meaning of life to you?
Matt says:
To live.
Matt says:
However you exercise that right you have that meaning of life is up to you.
Michael says:
and what is it "to live:
Matt says:
Everybody has different goals.
Matt says:
Some yearn to improve the lives of others.
Matt says:
That'd be the scientists curing diseases, the teachers educating the new generations.
Matt says:
Other's just want to have fun.
Matt says:
That'd be the partiers and daredevils.
Michael says:
so don't think there are any 'shoulds' in life
Matt says:
It's all up the them.
Matt says:
There are no shoulds in my opinion.
Michael says:
or 'shouldn'ts'
Michael says:
?
Matt says:
Life is just life. You do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't remove another person's right to live.
Michael says:
that's the ONLY rule
Michael says:
don't murder
Michael says:
and your golden
Matt says:
Right I also don't think there are any shouldn'ts, as long as it doesn't inflict on another person's right to live.
Matt says:
Well think about it.
Matt says:
If living is what's important than stealing that from someone is wrong.
Matt says:
Period.
Michael says:
steal cheat lie, but just don't murder
Matt says:
sure
Matt says:
lol
Matt says:
honestly I do think that way
Michael says:
I really don't get that "If living is what's important than stealing that from someone is wrong.
"
Matt says:
It's your own fault though if you don't like the repurcutions of lying cheating and stealing.
Matt says:
get what I mean
Matt says:
it wouldn't be a very enjoyable life
Michael says:
are you a nihilist?
Matt says:
no
Matt says:
I don't follow any religions
Michael says:
really/
Matt says:
Or cults.
Michael says:
you sure about that
Michael says:
do you know what a nihilist is?
Matt says:
That is my personal belief.
Matt says:
If it shares a resemblance to "nihilism" that's just a coincidense
Matt says:
I don't like "ism"s personally.
Matt says:
Labels are unneccesary.
Matt says:
no i don't enlighten me
Michael says:
nihilism |ˈnīəˌlizəm; ˈnē-|
noun
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
Matt says:
lol
Matt says:
Well I'm not a Nihilist then.
Matt says:
because I don't view life as being meaningless
Matt says:
unless you argue that by my saying that you make your own meaning it would be "meaningless"
Matt says:
In that case I would be a Nihilist.
Michael says:
so the meaning to life is that you make your own meaning..sounds kinda like there isn't A meaning then therefore life is meaningless..to you
Matt says:
actually
Matt says:
after reading the wikipedia article I'd agree with the description
Matt says:
I do consider myself a Nihilist.
Michael says:
yeah
Matt says:
that actually perfectly describes my view on the meaning of life
Matt says:
a blank slate
Michael says:
yep thought so
Michael says:
doesn't that make life feel a little..less full to you?
Matt says:
lol
Matt says:
What is 'full'?
Michael says:
and id you make your own meaning what is your meaning of life?/
Matt says:
I can pull the tough question asking card too you know.
Matt says:
My meaning of life... I don't know.
Matt says:
I'm only 18, that's my exuse.
Matt says:
I've still got the rest of an ever-expanding lifetime to find out my personal meaning of life.
Matt says:
if your definition of full is naive satisfaction without wanting to seek the ultimate truth, then I don't want to be full.
Michael says:
haha yes
Matt says:
You could say "god did it" or you could get off your ass and figure it out
Michael says:
thats exactly what my definition of a "FULL LIFE IS pffffff
Matt says:
Mitosis... god did it.... or not.
Matt says:
Cancer... god did it? nope.
Matt says:
Curing cancer... god will do it? probably not.
Michael says:
yes he did actually
Michael says:
well God did
Matt says:
explain
Michael says:
he created the earth and everything in it..so God indirectly created cancer
Michael says:
and what exactly do you get off your ass and "figure out"??
Matt says:
origins of things
Michael says:
Christians still study science
Matt says:
Saying "god did it" is the lazy way out.
Matt says:
Yes and then that Christian will deicde that God is responsible for whafever scientific findings he or she finds.
Michael says:
and the origins of things, in fact Christians appreciate it God's creation A LOT and many Christians are environmentalist or at least care about God's creation
Matt says:
That's good, but their logic is still flawed.
Michael says:
no the Christian is amazed at the remarkable detail and ingenuity of the design of whatever he or she is studying and realizes there must be intelligent design
Matt says:
oh please
Matt says:
Intelligent design is a scam.
Michael says:
and there's NO WAY it could be a coincidence cause THAT is flowed logic
Matt says:
An attempt to mask religious indoctrination of the young and impressionable in science.
Michael says:
ok..
Matt says:
it is. It's amazing that humans area s advanced as we are.
Matt says:
But it can happen by chance.
Matt says:
A lot of scientific stuff is "amazing" but we know it's all scientific.
Matt says:
Nothing supernatural about it.
Michael says:
or another explanation just as viable as ohhh uhh yeah sweetie it was ummm and accident
Michael says:
you are born from an accident you will die in the ground with your body
Michael says:
goodnight
Matt says:
That's the thing. Science has come to the conclusion that it was a randome vent that created life based on fact. and accident isn't the same as random event.
Michael says:
lol you say Science like it's some kind of...belief
Matt says:
there is no accident
Matt says:
no purpose
Matt says:
i say Science because I'm grouping together all of the scentific studies done
Michael says:
by people
Matt says:
yes
Matt says:
called scientists
Michael says:
they're just people..victims of human errors too
Michael says:
Scientists are no higher than we are
Matt says:
what?
Matt says:
What are you referring to "victims of human error"
Matt says:
How was the creation of human life a human error?
Matt says:
That itself is flawed logic.
Michael says:
uhh I meant humans make errors
Matt says:
an example of a logic loop
Matt says:
like the bible
Matt says:
God wrote the Bible. He exists because he's mentioned the Bible!!
Matt says:
Uh oh.
Matt says:
mentioned in the bible**
Michael says:
uh oh
Michael says:
that made no sense
Matt says:
I'm pointing out the lack of logic.
Michael says:
in your own mind?
Michael says:
why would you do that?
Michael says:
it doesn't help your case
Matt says:
How can you prove the existance of something by reading about it in a book it itself created?
Matt says:
it's a loop
Michael says:
no..
Michael says:
I don't belive in an author's existance because he put himself in his book..
Michael says:
I believe in him because we're discussing his book over coffee..
Michael says:
get it?
Michael says:
logic check
Matt says:
Yes, you would believe in him because his existance is already proven.
Matt says:
That's the problem with the bible.
Matt says:
get it?
Michael says:
yeah
Matt says:
logic check
Michael says:
no
Michael says:
I dont
Michael says:
what?
Matt says:
because there is no OTHER proof of god
Michael says:
that's were your wron
Michael says:
g
Matt says:
the ONLY thing you can use to prove his existance is the book he himself wrote
Michael says:
no
Michael says:
I don't use that to prove his existance though
Matt says:
then what proof do you use
Michael says:
I use this computer
Matt says:
tell me
Michael says:
I use my brain
Michael says:
I use every detail science
Matt says:
but without knowing that he is responsible for the computer, the human brain... how would you use it as proof of his existance?
Matt says:
listen to this for a sec
Matt says:
hypothetical situation here
Matt says:
I beleive in aiobfqeioaioefgb. he is the god of all gods.
Matt says:
God (christian god...) exists. Therefore SOMETHING must have created him!
Matt says:
It must have been good ol' aiobfqeioaioefgb! Who else?
Matt says:
God is amazing. That guy created Earth.
Matt says:
He must be the work of aiobfqeioaioefgb.
Matt says:
the mere existance of a "god" is a logic loop
Matt says:
think about it
Michael says:
uhhh yeah explain to me how tha proved anything you are saying..
Matt says:
omg
Matt says:
I give up.
Matt says:
lol
Michael says:
it felt like you just wanted chance to say aiobfqeioaioefgb and sound intellignet
Matt says:
this isn't even worth it anymore
Matt says:
NO
Matt says:
i was making a random name
Matt says:
I was gonna use Globbleflort.
Michael says:
lol I spely intelligent wrong
Matt says:
but I decided not to
Matt says:
it doesn't matter
Matt says:
I was hoping you would see the flawed logic in a "god" situation
Michael says:
I spelt spely wrong
Michael says:
well that's why at certain point faith is involved
Matt says:
aha
Matt says:
but
Matt says:
Faith isn't scientific.
Matt says:
It doesn't rely on proof.
Matt says:
Therefore it can't be used to prove anything.
Matt says:
No facts.
Michael says:
neither does your crush on Ben
Michael says:
but it gives you something
Michael says:
something to hope for
Matt says:
That's the human brain for you.
Michael says:
right?
Matt says:
It's very advanced and we're still mapping it out.
Matt says:
Understanding it.
Michael says:
w
Michael says:
t
Michael says:
f
Michael says:
are you talkinga bout
Matt says:
Love is a sensation produced by the brain.
Michael says:
yeah..
Matt says:
you didn't know that?
Michael says:
I did..
Michael says:
it's kinda obvious
Michael says:
lol
Matt says:
We're still understanding what exactly "love is" and what specifically in the brainc auses it.
Matt says:
We aren't finished.
Michael says:
ok..cool
Matt says:
No wonder I don't fully ubnderstand my crush on ben.
Michael says:
gotta love them scientists
Michael says:
what would we do without them
Michael says:
you know
Matt says:
be in the dark ages
Michael says:
you can't prove that they exist
Matt says:
I don't like the way you think therefore you have to die.
Michael says:
the scientist
Matt says:
gotta love the good ol days
Michael says:
your whole life could be a dream
Matt says:
lol
Matt says:
could be
Michael says:
but you have faith right?
Matt says:
but if all we ever do is live in a dream we might as well find out as much about that dream as possible
Matt says:
I don't.
Matt says:
I don't have faith in anything.
Matt says:
Not even humanity because of people like you.
Michael says:
what?
Matt says:
Who refuse to admit to fact.
Michael says:
was that as mean as it sounded?
Matt says:
It was.
Matt says:
And I apologise.
Michael says:
you don't belive in humanity because of me?
Matt says:
But sometimes you have to say things like that.
Matt says:
I don't/
Matt says:
And it's sad.
Matt says:
Because I like you a lot.
Matt says:
You're a smart guy.
Matt says:
And it's too bad you aren't smarter, and that you're limited by your religion.
Michael says:
but I'm lost
Michael says:
limited from what?
Michael says:
limited from living a life of complete sin?
Matt says:
what is sin
Michael says:
or 'living it up' as some would call it
Matt says:
how do you know what is right and wrong
Michael says:
because if it doesn't please God it is wrong
Matt says:
wow that sounded cult-like
Michael says:
wow..I'm brainwashed
Matt says:
Who says you have to "please" god even if he exists.
Michael says:
I can't think for myself
Matt says:
You're your own person.
Michael says:
HELP MEEE
Michael says:
no one
Michael says:
and I totally have the right to not please him
Michael says:
and I don't often
Michael says:
but God forgives you and if you ask him he will help you overcome your sin
Matt says:
Um.
Matt says:
See here's the problem. I can't.
Matt says:
He is omnipresent.
Michael says:
whether it be..gambling..drinking and driving..murdering..
Matt says:
he is supernatural.
Matt says:
He has no physical form
Matt says:
I can't ask him, he can't hear me.
Matt says:
BUT HE EXCISTS
Matt says:
ALAS
Michael says:
nono sorry I meant you as in the like people you you know?
Matt says:
Flawed logic.
Michael says:
logic according to Science
Matt says:
Yes, the young and impressionable people.
Michael says:
and Science is your religion
Michael says:
everyone has some belief
Matt says:
Science is the opposite of religion.
Michael says:
yours rests in science
Matt says:
Science is getting off your ass and figuring shit out, religion is casting it aside, waiting for tomorrow or perhaps the enxt passby to do anything about it.
Michael says:
well religion to me means rules
Matt says:
passerby**
Michael says:
hahha
Michael says:
well I don't even want to or strive to be 'religious' by my definition of the word
Michael says:
I strive to get closer to God, because that is right and leads me closer true happiness
Michael says:
also, I can always turn to God, even when there are no people with me
Matt says:
Well here's the thing. You can do that but without proof of god do you even feel comfortable living like that? If you think his best-selling fiction novel is proof enough, you're naive.
Michael says:
and He DOES comfort me
Michael says:
and He will always love me
Michael says:
I don't need scientific proof of God
Michael says:
I have alllllll kinda of other prood that's plenty for me..thanks though
Matt says:
what proof though
Michael says:
proof*
Matt says:
and remember faith is not proof
Michael says:
life
Matt says:
life is life
Matt says:
we don't know if it's god yet
Matt says:
so don't jump to coclusions
Michael says:
life for me is proof of God, you it's all about perspective
Michael says:
to me, I call him God
Michael says:
someone people call him other things
Matt says:
Life is proof of god?
Michael says:
for me
Michael says:
yes
Michael says:
love in life
Matt says:
Life as in living life is what I meant.
Matt says:
but okay
Matt says:
As for me, life is life.
Matt says:
We don't have a definitive answer yet.
Michael says:
you don't
Matt says:
So we'll keep on searching for one.
Michael says:
I do
Matt says:
listen
Michael says:
I'm sound
Matt says:
If we ever find solid proof of the existance of a god I will "beleive" in him.
Michael says:
secure, and it's not upsetting my life
Matt says:
Because it will be interpreting scientific fact.
Matt says:
Until then, in humanity's thousands of years of existance we haven't.
Michael says:
we don't find solid proof unitil we die
Matt says:
flawed logic again!
Matt says:
There's no life after death!
Matt says:
when you die you die
Matt says:
How can you have proof of an afterlife if that itself is an oxymoron?
Matt says:
Because death is the end of life?
Michael says:
omgosh, if you say the word flowed logic once more!
Matt says:
If you get to heaven that's all fine but you can't shout back down to Joe and Billy about how awesome it is.
Michael says:
I just know that God's love is eternal
Matt says:
it's a loop
Michael says:
and certainly the physical life ends at death, but the spirtual life carries on
Matt says:
There's no proof yet of a spiritual life.
Matt says:
so you can cancel that out
Matt says:
next?
Michael says:
lol, I'm glad my life isn't limited by scientic proof
Matt says:
you know what
Matt says:
If I think about it what you're doing is fine. You have the right to live however you wish. if you want to live in denial that's fine.
Matt says:
it doesn't affect me
Matt says:
I just wish people would strive for more.
Matt says:
Religious people are like the welfare bums of society, leeching off the hard work of the non-religious who advance civilization.
Matt says:
If I grew up to cure cancer and you would attribute the "miracle" to god.
Matt says:
Kind of sucks doesn't it.
Michael says:
what do you think is more important in life? spending your time shutting down all those idiots who get off their bum and love God by serving others and trying to help the needy or people who sit on their bum cursing those idiots who think there is some kind of God..
Michael says:
I just wish people would strive for me
Matt says:
If I finished mapping out the human genone you would go "oh ya that god guy is cool eh? he did that" and get right back on your knees worshipping him
Michael says:
more**wow bad typo
Matt says:
really
Matt says:
People who doubt god realize that we are responsible for helping the needy.
Matt says:
There are non-religious who help needy too.
Michael says:
well I would yeah cause I'm not a Christian who is interested in Science. A Christian who is interested in Science would say wow what an opportunity for me to serve God by saving people's lives with my discoveries
Michael says:
ah ah careful carefulll wouldn't want too much meaning your life there..responsibilities..? sounds like a duty to me
Michael says:
should I help those dying people?
Matt says:
I would.
Matt says:
Some wouldn't.
Matt says:
It's their choice.
Michael says:
no right or wrong?
Matt says:
I have a human emotion called compassion so I would.
Michael says:
honestly?
Michael says:
you must hate are legal system
Matt says:
no right or wong
Matt says:
honestly
Matt says:
I do!
Matt says:
it's full of laws based on morals
Matt says:
It's wrong to lay with man as thou would with woman.
Matt says:
Oops, nevermind we changed that.
Matt says:
it doesn't matter anymore
Matt says:
how do you know what does?
Michael says:
you know this has been a very revealiing conversation.for both of us I think we discovered you are a nihilistic anarchist
Matt says:
not an anarchist
Matt says:
anarchy leads to disaster
Matt says:
but definetely a Nihilist
Matt says:
and I have discovered that you are a very Closed-minded Theist
Michael says:
not close minded-cause closed mindedness leads to disaster
Matt says:
There's probably an adjective out there that describes your cult-like feeling of duty to a supernatural being out there too, but I don't feel like figuring it out atm. 4am does that to ya
Matt says:
i'll just settle with 'religious" for that adjective
Michael says:
whatever makes you feel bigger
Matt says:
closed-minded doesn't neccesarily lead to disaster
Michael says:
I mean better
Matt says:
but it doesn't lead to progress that's for sure
Michael says:
I know
Michael says:
I hate close mindedness
Matt says:
I'll ignore your intended ironic meaning.
Matt says:
I'm not closed minded though.
Michael says:
uh yeah haha.. fake laugh
Matt says:
I've looked at religion with an open mind.
Matt says:
And flat out denied it, realizing that it's pointless.
Michael says:
wow, you have to be joking
Michael says:
you think you're not close minded to faith?
Matt says:
If closed-minding means unwilling to examine it then yes I think I am most definietely NOT.
Michael says:
I'm and open minded person of faith
Michael says:
but I'm not like completely unstable like, wait "what? there IS NO GOD?? he can't be scientifcally proven so he's not real..WHAT? I have flawed logic? ohhhhh wow I guess I'll ignore my gut feelings and whole life of experiencing God and screw 'im
Matt says:
you should after realizing there is no god
Matt says:
There's no shame in being wrong.
Matt says:
that's human too
Michael says:
haha you think I think there is no God?
Matt says:
The only thing that matters is the future. The more people that are willing to make that realization in the future the better.
Matt says:
I don't.
Michael says:
obviously I was joking, God exists
Matt says:
I wish you did.
Michael says:
why?
Matt says:
because that'd the point of this debate.
Michael says:
how will that 'better the future'
Michael says:
???
Matt says:
I'm arguing that there aren't any gods and you are arguing that there are.
Michael says:
no
Matt says:
My goal is to convince you.
Michael says:
I'm arguing that there is a God
Matt says:
I use a generic, genderless, noun for the sake fo the debate topic.
Matt says:
Doesn't matter... god/gods same thing.
Michael says:
NO
Michael says:
wrong
Matt says:
we're argueing about the possiblity of a god
Michael says:
and intelligent design
Michael says:
I belive there is and if there isn't then what?
Matt says:
Then there isn't and you believed wrong.
Matt says:
Simple as that.
Matt says:
but if you ignore facts then you're stupid
Michael says:
EXACTLY
Michael says:
so who cares
Matt says:
no arguing there
Michael says:
ohh noo boo boo
Michael says:
I'm stupid
Michael says:
so the point of life to you is to not be stupid
Matt says:
yes, that's one of my personal points of life
Matt says:
To be smart.
Matt says:
To look at facts.
Michael says:
and waste your entire life searching for 'the truth' which quite frankly doesn't look liek you'll find
Matt says:
I don't beleive in a "truth" i told you I'm not religious
Matt says:
But I am interested in finding the origin of things like Earth, so I'll go as far as I can.
Michael says:
as far as you can..
Michael says:
meaning..
Matt says:
Uncovering as much knowledge as possible.
Matt says:
And handing it over to my grandchildren to finish.
Matt says:
Scientific progress.
Michael says:
that's certainly a feather in your cap
Michael says:
I'm not saying it wouldn't be neat
Michael says:
but what would you do with all this knowledge
Matt says:
Give it to humanity.
Matt says:
Allow it to better humanity.
Michael says:
tell your grandkids
Michael says:
well that's good..except you want to be an accountant
Matt says:
lmao
Matt says:
exactly
Matt says:
not everyone is cut out to be a scientist
Michael says:
sorry it's late and I'm not being a good example of Christian, I'm being rude
Matt says:
I'll balance their checkbooks while their busy making scientific progress.
Michael says:
I apologize for my rudeness
Matt says:
you don't have to
Matt says:
you pointed out hypocrisy in what I said
Matt says:
that wasn't rude
Michael says:
what if it's a Chrisitan's checkbook whose not busy making sceintific progress?
Michael | cOOmmon shut UP says:
lol
Matt says:
Well that's life.
Matt says:
It's money for me anyways.
Michael | cOOmmon shut UP says:
lol
Matt says:
Michael says:
so to sum up you don't mind living life with no faith or one real meaning..just so long as you 'live' and I need some kind of underlying purpose and a God to be able to turn to and I offically have carpel tunnel syndrome
Michael says:
my and has never been in so much pain
Michael says:
lol
Michael says:
it's actually like my lower wrist..
Matt says:
Well we share a lot in common.
Michael says:
ohh my goshh
Matt says:
Carpal tunnel syndrome.
Michael says:
yeah
Originally Posted by verzen
