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Thread: what do you think of Islam ?

  1. #1 what do you think of Islam ? 
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    Hi
    I just thought of knowing what do u guys think of islam ( the religion ) ?
    what have u heard about it ?
    waiting for ur answers


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    Just like any religion: antiquated. I find that most religions are a hinderance on society, Islam is no exception.


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    Quote Originally Posted by coltbishop
    Just like any religion: antiquated. I find that most religions are a hinderance on society, Islam is no exception.
    and why do u think of that ?
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    I have a real problem with the intolerance of Muslims toward any other religions. If a Muslim comes to a Western country, he will be able to practice his religion freely, and will have all the rights of citizenship. In countries where Islam is very dominant, they do not allow freedom of religion. If they do tolerate other religions, they still treat them as second class citizens without full rights of citizenship.

    The Muslim policy of killing apostates is also a violation of human rights in my view. Any person should be free to choose their religion, even those who are now Muslims.
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    Bravo!

    I was wondering how soon it would take for a thread like this, supposed to be discussing Islam, to sidetrack into discussing Muslims instead – i.e. a thread supposed to be discussing religion sidetracking into discussing people instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    islam ( the religion )
    NOT

    muslims (the people )
    It took only three replies.

    Well done, well done!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    Bravo!

    I was wondering how soon it would take for a thread like this, supposed to be discussing Islam, to sidetrack into discussing Muslims instead – i.e. a thread supposed to be discussing religion sidetracking into discussing people instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    islam ( the religion )
    NOT

    muslims (the people )
    It took only three replies.

    Well done, well done!
    Well, Jane, I don't see how you separate Islam from Muslims. Islam is whatever Muslims think it is. You can only judge the religion by the way its adherents behave.
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    Yes, but what do you think of, say, the Qur’ān, fasting during Ramadan, Friday prayers, pilgrimage to Mecca, etc? These would be topics about Islam (the religion).

    On the other hand, your tirade against Muslims is not really about religion – more about politics instead.
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    And furthermore
    Quote Originally Posted by what Harold14370
    In countries where Islam is very dominant, they do not allow freedom of religion.
    is not quite true. Some Muslim countries may be more strict than others, but not all of them are intolerant. Take Malaysia, for example. Although Islam is the official religion, the country is nevertheless quite tolerant of other religions. How many Westerners do you know who have got into trouble in Malaysia over religious things?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    Yes, but what do you think of, say, the Qur’ān, fasting during Ramadan, Friday prayers, pilgrimage to Mecca, etc? These would be topics about Islam (the religion).

    On the other hand, your tirade against Muslims is not really about religion – more about politics instead.
    Jane, Motivation asked what we think. I stated what I think. I am not interested in their prayer customs or that sort of thing. I am interested in human rights and how Islam and Muslims interface with the rest of the world.

    I could easily quote the Quran or other Muslim scriptures to support exactly what I stated before about Muslims. That would not necessarily be accurate though. For example, the Bible has passages that could be used to justify slavery. That does not mean Christianity supports slavery, at least the modern version of Christianity.

    PS. A country with an official religion does not meet my definition of a country with freedom of religion.
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    Well, if you have no comments on Islamic practices and the religion itself, then maybe you could have saved what comments you do have for another (more political) thread instead?

    Sorry, but your post in this thread came across to me as abrupt as McCormick’s comments in this thread – in which he joined a thread on algebra problems by talking about algebra-teaching methods. Don’t you see? William’s remarks might have been appropriate in the Education section, but were totally out of place in that thread – so, likewise, I felt that your post was more about Islamic politics than the religion itself (which is what I thought Motivation wanted to discuss here). :?
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    No, Jane. We are discussing Islam. It's just an unpleasant fact of Islam you would rather ignore. It is part of their faith, or at least many Muslims believe it to be so, to establish a national religion. It's called Sharia law.

    By the way, here are a couple of quotes from the Wikipedia article Religious freedom in Malaysia

    The Constitution of Malaysia provides for limited freedom of religion, notably placing control upon the 'propagation' of religion other than Islam to Muslims
    Negeri Sembilan is the only state which permits conversion. A convert must first apply to the Syariah Court for a declaration that he or she is no longer a Muslim; the convert will then be counseled for about a year by a Mufti. If, after this period, the convert still wants to convert, the judge may permit the application. This process is unique to the state; no other state allows Muslims to officially convert.
    Massosai was incarcerated for six months in an Islamic re-education camp because of her attempts to renounce Islam in favor of the Hindu religion.[16] Revathi was denied the guardianship of her new born baby and was not allowed to meet her Hindu husband.
    This is your example of religious tolerance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    is not quite true. Some Muslim countries may be more strict than others, but not all of them are intolerant. Take Malaysia, for example. Although Islam is the official religion, the country is nevertheless quite tolerant of other religions. How many Westerners do you know who have got into trouble in Malaysia over religious things?
    Furthermore, the past tells quite a different story. There were periods of history where the Islamic countries were the places of tolerance and the Christian countries were the ones that were intolerant. Furthermore, it is rather funny how the west judges other societies for the things they have stopped doing themselves only recently. What is a hundred years in the context of history?

    Nevertheless, I do give thanks that Islam is not bigger than it is because when I see the accomplishments of women artists (musics, film, writing, etc...) in western society I know full well that these accomplishments would not be tolerated in most Islamic societies. So although there is cause for a little historical perspective, there is also cause for fear and for thanksgiving.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Quote Originally Posted by coltbishop
    Just like any religion: antiquated. I find that most religions are a hinderance on society, Islam is no exception.
    and why do u think of that ?
    Well, first it's quite obvious human have made a point to rely on god to address the unexplainable. This has in turn developed divisive schisms and bloody conflicts. Islam is just another interpretation of human existence and human history that doesn't coincide with actual scientific data. Therefore, Islam is antiquated and without merit; it's basically as fully of fairytales as any other religion.

    R. Dawkins does a superb job of explaining the intricate argument behind this logic. Check out his books or anything by C. Hitchens or S. Harris.
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    Harold:

    If question was “what do you think of Christianity (the religion)” and someone replied with “I have a real problem with the medieval Inquisition whereby innocent women were burnt as witches” and “it was part of their faith, or at least many Christians believed it to be so, to exterminate heretics”, wouldn’t that be out of place as well? That would have been Christianity (history) rather than Christianity (the religion).

    This is a thread about Islam (the religion), started in the Religion section. If we want to discuss Islamic politics, I suggest we continue here.

    BTW, you did a good research on Malaysia. I admit there were a few things about that country I didn’t know about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    Harold:

    If question was “what do you think of Christianity (the religion)” and someone replied with “I have a real problem with the medieval Inquisition whereby innocent women were burnt as witches” and “it was part of their faith, or at least many Christians believed it to be so, to exterminate heretics”, wouldn’t that be out of place as well? That would have been Christianity (history) rather than Christianity (the religion).

    This is a thread about Islam (the religion), started in the Religion section. If we want to discuss Islamic politics, I suggest we continue here.

    BTW, you did a good research on Malaysia. I admit there were a few things about that country I didn’t know about.
    That's a poor example considering Islam is intolerant these days while your example talks about Christianitys past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    PS. A country with an official religion does not meet my definition of a country with freedom of religion.
    You mean like the United Kingdom?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    In countries where Islam is very dominant, they do not allow freedom of religion. If they do tolerate other religions, they still treat them as second class citizens without full rights of citizenship.
    Iran is an Islamic state, legally and practically. And yet despite Christians accounting for 0.4% of the population they are guaranteed a seat in parliament and special minority rights like family law of their own design - it's in the constitution I believe. That's not to say they don't face discrimination plus the odd nutter flipping out on them. I think the media tends to portray exceptional news as the normal situation.



    What do I think about Islam?

    It seems to hold some of the good moral coherence that Christianity lost. By that I mean I can ask, "What's the Islamic position on this issue?" and get an authoritative answer 99% of Muslims agree with. And it may not be a perfect recipe to please all the people all the time but it's pretty good. Of course there are sects with their own nuances but generally I find Islam more consistent than Christianity... consistent enough to base a country's laws around, sure. Virtually any wrong I can imagine in Canada Sharia agrees is a wrong and can even articulate why. Likewise the virtues Muslims think inspired by their religion, just happen to run parallel with those of any human society. So even though I don't believe in God, I appreciate the moral side of Islam.

    There are some quirks.

    Financially, I think Islam sucks moldy dates. It's totally out of whack with our modern (out of whack) global economy. I do like the public property and welfare aspects bound to an essentially free-market system, but the antiquated rules particularly against charging interest I think hamper Islamic economies and prevent them from playing normal roles on the world stage.

    Diet. The meat rules I like, being somewhat repulsed by investigation into common North American (atheist) slaughter and "processing" practices... and "meat food products". As for not eating omnivores: it makes sense intuitively. I grew up eating pork but I can't explain how that's different than eating monkey, which everyone knows is just plain wrong (though I gotta wonder, if a monkey just eats fruit, is monkey halal?). Shellfish really shouldn't be an issue now that we have red-tide monitoring. Alcohol had it's day and we have better ways to purify water now, so Muslims are only missing the intoxicant aspect... I don't hear any good arguments for that.

    The formalized toilet habits seem smart to me, as "don't even ask" leads to couples really chafing at each other's "weird" standards. Same for kitchen habits, though I don't know what guidance Islam extends there. Better than nothing!


    EDIT: Oh yeah I forgot the first thing that came to mind is that women in headscarves are cute! I especially like the baggy Malaysian style (no hair, chin tucked). Draws attention to their faces. Lacy eyeslits are just scary though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    PS. A country with an official religion does not meet my definition of a country with freedom of religion.
    You mean like the United Kingdom?
    Yes, like that, though of course the UK official religion doesn't mean much nowadays, does it?

    There are some aspects of UK law I don't like, like restrictions on free speech. I think there are laws that are supposed to prevent you from insulting some groups. Canada has laws like that, too.
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  20. #19  
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    I think Islam is good but Muslim is bad.
    I think Christianity is bad but Christian is good.
    I think Athe is good and Atheist is sometime good and sometime bad, depending on the God's mood.
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
    -Albert Einstein
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    In response to the OP, and given my other post on a thread in this forum, I'd suggest that Islam was a reasonable social update on Christianity, well-modified for the then situation of desert tribes in Arabia and was, therefore, quite an advance on existing Western/Middle-Eastern faith clubs.

    Like all such faith clubs, however, it has stultified, IMO, and much of its strictures are therefore just as outdated as those of any other religion.

    Some real good ideas, compared to previous religions in the area?

    1. Direct relationship between person and god - no formal priesthood established

    2. The non-personification of the idea of god - making the notion transcendental and, to a certain extent, ineffable

    3. Within constraints, the consideration of all humans as equal (or at least, all members of the faith club) - compare with Hindu caste system, for instance

    4. The commitment and consistency to point out that your religion should not just inform, but be an integral part of, your moral system and therefore cannot stay out of government.

    These, and others, ensure that (as someone else pointed out) it retains a consistency and clarity of vision that few other faith-clubs possess. But, for an atheist like me, that doesn't necessarily make it a morally goodf thing! :P
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    The reasons I have deleted this post is due to malicious activity from another user on this and several other forums,

    here is an example -

    http://z8.invisionfree.com/DYK/index.php?showtopic=645

    This forum is run by Jane Bennet and she also poses as admin and other members under pseudonyms.
    She abused her position as admin by changing the content of my posts when i first joined and then proceeded on a personal vendetta of malice after a disagreement on this forum, which amounted to threatening & abusive e-mails and posts on forums.

    Her research and activity i can only describe as being 'stalker' like.

    Many apologies for having to do this, but this person has behaved very threateningly in a way i can only describe as worrying!

    Here are some of the pseudonyms she uses -

    Jane Bennet

    Athene_noctua

    JaneFairfax

    And no doubt other names...

    BEWARE - She appears to be NOT of sound mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I have a real problem with the intolerance of Muslims toward any other religions. If a Muslim comes to a Western country, he will be able to practice his religion freely, and will have all the rights of citizenship. In countries where Islam is very dominant, they do not allow freedom of religion. If they do tolerate other religions, they still treat them as second class citizens without full rights of citizenship.

    The Muslim policy of killing apostates is also a violation of human rights in my view. Any person should be free to choose their religion, even those who are now Muslims.
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims and who told u that muslim countries treat other religions as second class not all of them just few
    there is always a good side and a bad side in everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    Yes, but what do you think of, say, the Qur’ān, fasting during Ramadan, Friday prayers, pilgrimage to Mecca, etc? These would be topics about Islam (the religion).

    On the other hand, your tirade against Muslims is not really about religion – more about politics instead.
    u're right
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    I felt that your post was more about Islamic politics than the religion itself (which is what I thought Motivation wanted to discuss here). :?
    u can talk about both of them if like
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    Quote Originally Posted by coltbishop
    Therefore, Islam is antiquated and without merit; it's basically as fully of fairytales as any other religion.

    .

    nothing in islam is a fairytale it's all true i don't know what u heard but if u want to check on something ask me
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    I think Islam is good but Muslim is bad.
    .
    u r right islam is good and muslims were good long ago and there r some of them now but not all of them i am muslim and i see that every day and it breaks my heart
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    The reasons I have deleted this post is due to malicious activity from another user on this and several other forums,

    here is an example -

    http://z8.invisionfree.com/DYK/index.php?showtopic=645

    This forum is run by Jane Bennet and she also poses as admin and other members under pseudonyms.
    She abused her position as admin by changing the content of my posts when i first joined and then proceeded on a personal vendetta of malice after a disagreement on this forum, which amounted to threatening & abusive e-mails and posts on forums.

    Her research and activity i can only describe as being 'stalker' like.

    Many apologies for having to do this, but this person has behaved very threateningly in a way i can only describe as worrying!

    Here are some of the pseudonyms she uses -

    Jane Bennet

    Athene_noctua

    JaneFairfax

    And no doubt other names...

    BEWARE - She appears to be NOT of sound mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    People make religion. .
    people don't make religion god made them and i'm talking about three main religions in here
    1- the religion of Jew
    2- christianity
    3- islam

    islma is the last one and the right one because the others were changed by people
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  30. #29  
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    The reasons I have deleted this post is due to malicious activity from another user on this and several other forums,

    here is an example -

    http://z8.invisionfree.com/DYK/index.php?showtopic=645

    This forum is run by Jane Bennet and she also poses as admin and other members under pseudonyms.
    She abused her position as admin by changing the content of my posts when i first joined and then proceeded on a personal vendetta of malice after a disagreement on this forum, which amounted to threatening & abusive e-mails and posts on forums.

    Her research and activity i can only describe as being 'stalker' like.

    Many apologies for having to do this, but this person has behaved very threateningly in a way i can only describe as worrying!

    Here are some of the pseudonyms she uses -

    Jane Bennet

    Athene_noctua

    JaneFairfax

    And no doubt other names...

    BEWARE - She appears to be NOT of sound mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    People make religion. .
    people don't make religion god made them and i'm talking about three main religions in here
    1- the religion of Jew
    2- christianity
    3- islam

    islma is the last one and the right one because the others were changed by people
    What rubbish!

    You are obviously a religious adherent that neither thinks logically or comprehends rationality.

    Discussion with you has ended due to this fact.
    i'm sorry if i insulted u in any way but if u feel uncomfertable of this discussion then don't reply
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims and who told u that muslim countries treat other religions as second class not all of them just few
    there is always a good side and a bad side in everything.
    I am not aware of any western countries that outlaw Islam, or any other religion. And while it might not be explicitly outlawed to be a christian, in most Islamic countries it is indeed illegal for a person to convert from Islam to christianity. In fact, as I recall something like 30% of all muslims in the world live in countries where they legally have the death penalty for converting to any other religion. That's not something that you find in the west.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    People make religion. .
    people don't make religion god made them and i'm talking about three main religions in here
    1- the religion of Jew
    2- christianity
    3- islam

    islma is the last one and the right one because the others were changed by people

    That's a very arrogant claim. What makes you think so?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims and who told u that muslim countries treat other religions as second class not all of them just few
    there is always a good side and a bad side in everything.
    I am not aware of any western countries that outlaw Islam, or any other religion. And while it might not be explicitly outlawed to be a christian, in most Islamic countries it is indeed illegal for a person to convert from Islam to christianity. In fact, as I recall something like 30% of all muslims in the world live in countries where they legally have the death penalty for converting to any other religion. That's not something that you find in the west.


    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...snum=0&spell=1

    do u see this link above. press on it and watch some of the videoes
    the man ( khalid yasin ) i s muslim guy listen to what he says about islam
    i mean why anybody would ever want to leave this religion
    the people who did r blind i don't think they really knew what is islam they only had the name that they r muslims.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims and who told u that muslim countries treat other religions as second class not all of them just few
    there is always a good side and a bad side in everything.
    I am not aware of any western countries that outlaw Islam, or any other religion. And while it might not be explicitly outlawed to be a christian, in most Islamic countries it is indeed illegal for a person to convert from Islam to christianity. In fact, as I recall something like 30% of all muslims in the world live in countries where they legally have the death penalty for converting to any other religion. That's not something that you find in the west.


    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...snum=0&spell=1

    do u see this link above. press on it and watch some of the videoes
    the man ( khalid yasin ) i s muslim guy listen to what he says about islam
    i mean why anybody would ever want to leave this religion
    the people who did r blind i don't think they really knew what is islam they only had the name that they r muslims.
    This video proves nothing, seriously.

    Firstly, from a neutral viewpoint I find what this man said very biased. It would be a great sermon but it has no significance in any academic discussion. A Christian preacher would have said the same thing against Islam.

    Secondly, all it does is to show how Christianity is wrong, and thereby concludes that Islam is the right way. This is like young-earth creationist trying to pick apart evolution, but failing to provide any positive evidence of whatever they are proposing. You are basing your argument on prior beliefs, namely that Quran/Bible is the word of God, and that all it says is therefore truth.

    Islam shows how the Bible is inconsistent. Christianity shows how the Quran is inconsistent. Judaism shows how neither or them are consistent. Claiming one is more right than the others is just stupid. Why not you raise up some points to streamline this discussion, rather than linking people to a few dozen videos and expect them to look for the answers themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkofnoah
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims and who told u that muslim countries treat other religions as second class not all of them just few
    there is always a good side and a bad side in everything.
    I am not aware of any western countries that outlaw Islam, or any other religion. And while it might not be explicitly outlawed to be a christian, in most Islamic countries it is indeed illegal for a person to convert from Islam to christianity. In fact, as I recall something like 30% of all muslims in the world live in countries where they legally have the death penalty for converting to any other religion. That's not something that you find in the west.


    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...snum=0&spell=1

    do u see this link above. press on it and watch some of the videoes
    the man ( khalid yasin ) i s muslim guy listen to what he says about islam
    i mean why anybody would ever want to leave this religion
    the people who did r blind i don't think they really knew what is islam they only had the name that they r muslims.
    This video proves nothing, seriously.

    Firstly, from a neutral viewpoint I find what this man said very biased. It would be a great sermon but it has no significance in any academic discussion. A Christian preacher would have said the same thing against Islam.

    Secondly, all it does is to show how Christianity is wrong, and thereby concludes that Islam is the right way. This is like young-earth creationist trying to pick apart evolution, but failing to provide any positive evidence of whatever they are proposing. You are basing your argument on prior beliefs, namely that Quran/Bible is the word of God, and that all it says is therefore truth.

    Islam shows how the Bible is inconsistent. Christianity shows how the Quran is inconsistent. Judaism shows how neither or them are consistent. Claiming one is more right than the others is just stupid. Why not you raise up some points to streamline this discussion, rather than linking people to a few dozen videos and expect them to look for the answers themselves.
    Indeed! Motivation, this kind of anti-theistic behavior on the part of a religious person does not prove Christianity and Judaism is wrong but that all religion as you practice it in your particular mindset is wrong and evil. I am afraid Motivation that you are one of these bad Muslims that you were talking about earlier. These days nothing has done more damage to the cause of God and religion than Islam and it appears that you want to continue this unholy work of convincing the world that religion and God is stupid and evil. You are more effective for the cause of atheism than a thousand Qs and how they must love you here.

    As for myself, I truly believe in God and I believe that people like you and all the others that seek to defame and ridicule God as you do, all cannot help but contribute to the plan of God to bring down religion that is stupid, deceptive and irrational so that only what is pure, sensible and sincere remains. Therefore I join the atheists here in giving thank to idiots like you, just as I give thank to all the theists, atheists, and anti-theists as part of the wonderful diversity of man that is a beautiful creation of God. Together we will prove what is right by making clear to the world what is sensible and good compared to what stupid and bad.
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims and who told u that muslim countries treat other religions as second class not all of them just few
    there is always a good side and a bad side in everything.
    Which Western country does not allow Muslims to practice their religion?
    Your country, UAE is probably one of the more tolerant Islamic countries. Yet, they restrict new citizens to the Sunni Muslim religion. All citizens are Muslims. They strictly limit the construction of churches or non-Muslim houses of worship. They subsidize Sunni Muslim mosques, but not any other religion. They forbid the preaching of other religions. That means other religions are second class.
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    i'm sorry i opened this subject i guess i'm just to young to discuss these things
    i'm muslim and i'm not a bad one if u see me i'll treat u like my brother or sister i love god and i believe in him

    dicussion ends here we don't want any more insults, please
    just don't add more replies cus i can't answer any more
    i guess u guys r old enough to know good from bad and i hope u do.
    thank u
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  39. #38 Re: what do you think of Islam ? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Hi
    I just thought of knowing what do u guys think of islam ( the religion ) ?
    what have u heard about it ?
    waiting for ur answers
    Since I have never seen any evidence that any of it is true, I am inclined to believe that it is probably not true. If you have any evidence that it is true, I would be happy to look at it. Note that by "evidence" I don't mean chatter about how great it is - I mean specific pieces of evidence that support the claim that Islam is true.
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  40. #39  
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    In what I've learned from being here and being like you I've learned this:

    "Believe what you believe, and let others do the same".
    Good and bad are just words, what matters is that you as a person do what you feel is right. If people love you and you love them, if you can love your enemy. Your life will feel and be frivolous, and many people wil adore you for your devotion and love. And if that is true, it doesn't matter what other people believe, your in control of your own life. Other people are people and can think and look after themselves and others just as well as you can, even if they don't want to.

    Help is only needed by the helpless. And many people, especially on this forum motivaiton, are far from it.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    i'm sorry i opened this subject i guess i'm just to young to discuss these things
    i'm muslim and i'm not a bad one if u see me i'll treat u like my brother or sister i love god and i believe in him

    dicussion ends here we don't want any more insults, please
    just don't add more replies cus i can't answer any more
    i guess u guys r old enough to know good from bad and i hope u do.
    thank u
    You should not be sorry if you have learned something. The humility to recognize your limitations is a gift from God that I value more than any other, because it is only through humility that we understand that we have so much more to learn and thus giving us the courage to open our minds to learn more. If you are one of these bad Muslims in some ways then know that I understand that I am one of the worst Christians in other ways. Such is the hopelessness of mankind that causes so many like us to put our hope in God.
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  42. #41  
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    Good grief Mitchell, you did that with me didn't you. I finally understand that, thank you. Hohohoho, that prooves a statement regarding God's influence on Earth I heard. It being:

    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all".
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    Good grief Mitchell, you did that with me didn't you. I finally understand that, thank you. Hohohoho, that prooves a statement regarding God's influence on Earth I heard. It being:

    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all".
    Hmmm.... intriguing. Where did you "hear" this?
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  44. #43 Re: what do you think of Islam ? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Hi
    I just thought of knowing what do u guys think of islam ( the religion ) ?
    what have u heard about it ?
    waiting for ur answers
    Since I have never seen any evidence that any of it is true, I am inclined to believe that it is probably not true. If you have any evidence that it is true, I would be happy to look at it. Note that by "evidence" I don't mean chatter about how great it is - I mean specific pieces of evidence that support the claim that Islam is true.
    u want an evidance go talk to a muslim person he'll tell u
    talking is better than writing
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    In what I've learned from being here and being like you I've learned this:

    "Believe what you believe, and let others do the same".
    Good and bad are just words, what matters is that you as a person do what you feel is right. If people love you and you love them, if you can love your enemy. Your life will feel and be frivolous, and many people wil adore you for your devotion and love. And if that is true, it doesn't matter what other people believe, your in control of your own life. Other people are people and can think and look after themselves and others just as well as you can, even if they don't want to.

    Help is only needed by the helpless. And many people, especially on this forum motivaiton, are far from it.
    i like what u said and i agree with u
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  46. #45  
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    @ Motivation. Did you taste irony when all those posters from Western countries piled in to mock your religion, insult your virtue, and attack your opinion that
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims
    :wink:


    People please, try a little discretion if not tolerance or common courtesy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    People please, try a little discretion if not tolerance or common courtesy.
    You are asking posters at thescienceforum.com to be discrete?, consistent, rational, tolerant or courteous in a discussion involving religion? Are you on dope? oh... wait a minute... you did say "people"... I guess this might be a more reasonable suggestion if we exclude a few posters from this category... LOL
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    @ Motivation. Did you taste irony when all those posters from Western countries piled in to mock your religion, insult your virtue, and attack your opinion that
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims
    :wink:


    People please, try a little discretion if not tolerance or common courtesy.
    so u know about what they did to us, i mean we never isulted any religion
    why did they do that ?
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  49. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    @ Motivation. Did you taste irony when all those posters from Western countries piled in to mock your religion, insult your virtue, and attack your opinion that
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims
    :wink:


    People please, try a little discretion if not tolerance or common courtesy.
    so u know about what they did to us, i mean we never isulted any religion
    why did they do that ?
    If you are referring to me, I never mocked or insulted anybody. I am only dealing in facts. As Harry Truman once said, I didn't give them hell, I told the truth and they thought it was hell.

    You still haven't given an example of a western country that restricted Muslims from practicing their religion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    @ Motivation. Did you taste irony when all those posters from Western countries piled in to mock your religion, insult your virtue, and attack your opinion that
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims
    :wink:


    People please, try a little discretion if not tolerance or common courtesy.
    so u know about what they did to us, i mean we never isulted any religion
    why did they do that ?
    If you are referring to me, I never mocked or insulted anybody. I am only dealing in facts. As Harry Truman once said, I didn't give them hell, I told the truth and they thought it was hell.

    You still haven't given an example of a western country that restricted Muslims from practicing their religion.
    no i didn't mean u
    well not a country mostly the people let's forget about that
    there r always good people and bad ones everywhere so i'll just get over it
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    so u know about what they did to us, i mean we never isulted any religion
    why did they do that ?
    Oh really Muslims "never insulted any religion"? Never? No offense, but I find this statement very disturbing...
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  52. #51  
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    Some Muslims never insulted another religion. Some did. Some Christians never insulted another religion. Some did.

    You can't sterotype an entrie religion or a country based on some peoples acts being publicised by the media and propoganda. Every single party known in existence will do the opposite and the akin to something. Its not the religion, or the country that causes the harm, its the people.

    To back that up, take computer errors for instance, its not the computer that made the fault, its the human behind it.

    Which is what Motivation just said 8).
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  53. #52 Re: what do you think of Islam ? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    [Since I have never seen any evidence that any of it is true, I am inclined to believe that it is probably not true. If you have any evidence that it is true, I would be happy to look at it. Note that by "evidence" I don't mean chatter about how great it is - I mean specific pieces of evidence that support the claim that Islam is true.
    I would be happy to show you some evidences , But give me some days to arrange them :-D . I think another thread about that will be good , and disscution will be better .
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  54. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    @ Motivation. Did you taste irony when all those posters from Western countries piled in to mock your religion, insult your virtue, and attack your opinion that
    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    not all western countries allow muslims to practice their religion, most of them actually hate muslims
    :wink:


    People please, try a little discretion if not tolerance or common courtesy.
    so u know about what they did to us, i mean we never isulted any religion
    why did they do that ?
    If you're talking about some events in history, I don't know which you mean. And I'm no expert there either.

    I meant that in this thread many posts are basically attacks, not useful criticism. And I see a lot of good in Islam but others rather take up the bad points to beat you with those.

    You get your proof that "most Western countries actually hate Muslims" right here at the Science Forum. In fact it is the individuals doing the hating, but of course a country's actions must be through the work of many individuals. You'd better judge a country by the peoples' actions, not just the written laws and politicians' words. If a great number of people are hostile, then it's fair to say the country is hostile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motivation
    why did they do that ?
    Well there's the old cause: "my God is better than yours" but I think the modern intolerance is something else.

    We're looking at countries where civilization is dissolving. Westerners lost their common morality (BTW I think they still have it, but recent generations can't see it). So one way they can feel a common cause is by attacking the outsider. You're going to see this nasty grouping most intensely from the most liberal (baseless) countries. Atheist intellectuals crave targets they can get on side against.

    Salman Rushdie make that Sir Salman Rushdie Knight of what's left of British identity these days.

    They won't let up until they find a better target, or *gasp* reform some positive common ground of their own.


    @Raed. I agree, debating if "Islam is true" better go in another thread. Let's keep it real in this one. Islam is a reality here on Earth if only because Muslims are a reality, which is plenty. I thought this was a practical discussion about Islam.
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    Im muslim and have studies science in depth including evolutionary genetics all to degree length, and im still a devout muslim, because Islam answers more questions that science ever can.

    All you need to do is read the Quran with an open mind, and have no bias in your mind from what you see in the media.
    Motivation will almost always beat mere talent in the scientific world.
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  56. #55  
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    assassin3000 wrote
    Im muslim and have studies science in depth including evolutionary genetics all to degree length, and im still a devout muslim, because Islam answers more questions that science ever can.
    I would like to see the questions and answers that Islam provide but science cannot. Could you show me some? Do they related to science?
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
    -Albert Einstein
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  57. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by assassin3000
    Im muslim and have studies science in depth including evolutionary genetics all to degree length, and im still a devout muslim, because Islam answers more questions that science ever can.

    All you need to do is read the Quran with an open mind, and have no bias in your mind from what you see in the media.
    "We should be open minded, but not so open minded that our brains fall out"
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  58. #57  
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    Quote Originally Posted by assassin3000
    Im muslim and have studies science in depth including evolutionary genetics all to degree length, and im still a devout muslim, because Islam answers more questions that science ever can.

    All you need to do is read the Quran with an open mind, and have no bias in your mind from what you see in the media.
    I find it every interesting that you would suggest an open mind would suddenly deliver our senses to the teachings of a man long since dead and antiquated. An open mind, a rational mind would certainly take an individual to another end of the religious spectrum all together. If not open agnosticism then unabashed atheism.
    An OPEN MIND would certain make one face all the facts not just the delivered mesage of the Quran. Perhaps what you meant was, " If you put blinders on and ignored your senses you would be more religious; perhaps even muslim."
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  59. #58  
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    Quote Originally Posted by assassin3000
    All you need to do is read the Quran with an open mind, and have no bias in your mind from what you see in the media.
    I think it also helps if you are ignorant as a blank slate, such as is the case in many poor uneducated populations with no access to anything that might help you develop any sort of discernment before you read this book. Then once this belief system is installed and solidified so that you perceive everything through this filter then none of the information that might conflict with the Quran can get in anymore.

    The same applies to Christianity of course as it does to most religions.

    This doesn't mean that one cannot become a muslim after having a good education any more than it means one cannot become a Christian after having a good education, though I only have personal experience of the latter. HOWEVER, I do think that it is more difficult AND I think that a very different muslim or Christian is the result.

    Personally, I cannot even imagine ever converting to Islam myself. I know enough about Islam to know this could never happen. However, I imagine that it is quite possible to convert from Christianity to Islam and visa versa, and I think this is largely because "muslim" and "Christian" are anything but singlular or static identifications, so people convert from superficial versions of one to a more profound version of the other.

    I do know one person however who converted from a superficial Christianity to Islam and then from Islam to a more profound version of Christianity. This may not prove anything, but I do believe that the Christian message is primarily to people with a religious background just like Islam, for I think that despite the fact that Islam came after Christianity, Islam has more in common with Judaism than Christianity.

    I think it is clear that both Judaism and Islam find thier beginings in polytheistic or "pagan" cultures, representing a call to belief in a single transcendant God. Islam may be more "evangelical" and thus a little more inter-cultural than Judaism, but its emphasis on monotheism above everything else is quite similar.

    The gospel message and Christianity is specifically aimed at a people in a legalistic monotheistic religion like Judaism and Islam. Looking at the history of Christianity you will see repeated attempts by people to turn Christianity itself into a legalistic religion. This kind of legalism, in fact, happens all the time in individual congregations of every denomination but there are also groups like the LDS and the Jehova Witnesses who have done so in a formal manner. So the fact that Mohammed created Islam after the birth of Christianity does not contradict this assessment.

    BUT this does not mean that a muslim with the most profound understanding of Islam is going to convert to Christianity. I very much doubt this. The same of course goes for the reverse. I believe there is that in religion that goes beyond words and is part of the personal and unique development of a person in relationship to the divine. In the end words are but sounds and symbols and it is really the meaning that we give them that matters and not the sounds and symbols themselves. That makes what I am trying to say difficult to express in words.
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