Notices
Results 1 to 31 of 31

Thread: Aliens... around or dead?

  1. #1 Aliens... around or dead? 
    Forum Freshman Lightingbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Saint Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    63
    We were discussing this at my job the other day. Made me really think about this. Now I know some person at Nasa from what Ive been told actually came up with this theory.

    Seeing how old the universe is at this point it really makes sense to me one of two things has happened. Either life exists in abundance but far away or alien life has existed several times in different places but some sort of "event" always wipes them out.

    Think about it. As humans we have been around what maybe 10,000 years? Sorry I dont know the exact number. How old is earth? 4 billion years old right. Its almost logical to say that even on our own world other life could have existed but every single trace was destoryed.

    So is it possible that booming alien civilations have existed only to die in a cosmic disaster or by thier own hands? There must be a reason why our system, galaxy, and universe as we know is not teeming with life. Enough advance life to travel the stars at rate we would not remotely understand.

    So anyway...

    Discuss.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: Aliens... around or dead? 
    Forum Ph.D. GhostofMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Thames estuary
    Posts
    851
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightingbird
    We were discussing this at my job the other day. Made me really think about this. Now I know some person at Nasa from what Ive been told actually came up with this theory.
    Was he the janitor?

    Seeing how old the universe is at this point it really makes sense to me one of two things has happened. Either life exists in abundance but far away or alien life has existed several times in different places but some sort of "event" always wipes them out.
    ......Or life is abundant, but we have yet to do the right things to detect its presence.
    Think about it. As humans we have been around what maybe 10,000 years? Sorry I dont know the exact number. How old is earth? 4 billion years old right. Its almost logical to say that even on our own world other life could have existed but every single trace was destoryed.
    Not really likely! There was very little time between the earth settling down to habitable temperatures etc...and life first arising. Certainly not enough time for complex life to have arisen previously(The majority of the time, life was very simple).

    (I think you will find that humans have been around a power of ten longer than that BTW).
    So is it possible that booming alien civilations have existed only to die in a cosmic disaster or by thier own hands? There must be a reason why our system, galaxy, and universe as we know is not teeming with life. Enough advance life to travel the stars at rate we would not remotely understand.
    How do you know any of the above aren't teeming with life? NASA certainly arent so inclined to think so.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Ph.D. Cat1981(England)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    South Downs.
    Posts
    913
    Another thing to consider is that we are on our 2nd or 3rd generation of star at the moment. As i understand it, carbon and other materials that we consider vital for life simply weren't around after the big bang and didn't come about until this generation of stars. So any life which exists now may only be as old as us. Interesting thought though.

    Edit, our not are.
    Eat Dolphin, save the Tuna!!!!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Ph.D. GhostofMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Thames estuary
    Posts
    851
    Yes, good point.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman Lightingbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Saint Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    63
    Well all I am saying is that. Since we havent been able to safely leave our world to do further research to find out more. Agreed, earth may have not have previous intelligent life.

    What about other places? There has been enough time. We don't have enough technology just yet to know for sure.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Ph.D. GhostofMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Thames estuary
    Posts
    851
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightingbird
    Well all I am saying is that. Since we havent been able to safely leave our world to do further research to find out more. Agreed, earth may have not have previous intelligent life.
    Intelligent life previously? You are kidding yeah? There just wasn't the time.....you have to take nearly 3 billion years off the earth history bank account just for life to evolve from single celled organism to primitive sea dwellers.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,245
    Some people argue that any civilization would advance to point where they could possibly destroy themselves. We are currently at such a stage with our nuclear weapons. If we survive this stage, there might arise yet other ways for us to destroy ourselves.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Freshman Lightingbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Saint Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    63
    Ghost,

    I am by no means saying there was life on earth besides humans or even dinosaurs. What I am stating is that there has been plenty of time for something to evolve. Given the overral age of our universe, isn't it logical to assume that some intelligent life that has evolved and not elminated themselves has been around for a very long time?

    Long enough to have sufficent space travel or even be somewhat abundant in the universe? If not... why?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightingbird
    Long enough to have sufficent space travel or even be somewhat abundant in the universe? If not... why?
    Considering that every factor concerning this topic, including the age of the universe and the "standards" for evolution, is still under debate, yes, it probably is possible that life has been coming and going on all scales, like popcorn in a microwave.

    The trick is to figure out how many times previously, and currently, there exist favorable conditions for extended existence of life. (What is "favorable" and "extended" being big subjects of debate right now.) To get a picture, though, we examine the universe with the information we have currently. The current theory of the universe's age is somewhere between 12 and 14 billion years. If we assume that life must exist around a main-sequence star, that gives life an average of about 10 billion years to do something (we've currently got just about 5 billion left...tick tick...)

    If you state that intelligent life can evolve in that time window, not counting planet development, then all you need to figure out how many times life "could have" evolved to an intelligent level in the past is to figure out how many main-sequence stars existed before now. There isn't much wiggle-room in the current age of the universe, but there's probably at least two sets of main-sequence stars before our own set, if you count overlapping generations.

    As for life existing before us on Earth, there simply hasn't been enough time, if we follow our current theories on life. Even if there was, evidence would be present, especially if that civilization knocked itself out by nuclear war. If there was some kind of natural catastrophe, like an asteroid impact that completely destroyed the surface of the planet, there'd still be evidence. We'd find bits of stuff all over, not to mention that if the impact happened while the civilization was at our level of growth, there might still be crap in space left behind by us. Most of it would have left or fallen, but there'd still be a few places where we'd find bits and pieces of that civilization's technology rotting in the vacuum.

    Makes for good science fiction, though! :P
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Ph.D. GhostofMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Thames estuary
    Posts
    851
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightingbird
    Ghost,

    I am by no means saying there was life on earth besides humans or even dinosaurs. What I am stating is that there has been plenty of time for something to evolve. Given the overral age of our universe, isn't it logical to assume that some intelligent life that has evolved and not elminated themselves has been around for a very long time?
    If you were to be optimistic and said:

    1) Life got going about a soon as it was possible for earth to support life , therefore life may have propped up pretty well everywhere it can be supported in the cosmos.

    2) Life tends to evolve towards more complexity, more immediate adaption and therefore problem solving and intelligence.

    ..........Then, yes of course!
    Es ist Zeit für sauberen



    You guys
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Ph.D. GhostofMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Thames estuary
    Posts
    851
    Long enough to have sufficent space travel
    Caution! Relativity! Relativity!Relativity! Where you going to get the energy? energy ? energy?
    Es ist Zeit für sauberen



    You guys
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Freshman Lightingbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Saint Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    63
    Ah good points.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    Quote Originally Posted by GhostofMaxwell
    Relativity! Relativity!Relativity!...energy? energy ? energy?
    What's with the repeats? We've already got that maxheadroom guy, we don't need another one.
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    There's no saying the whole universe isn't full of intelligent life. If the culture (or cultures) that control our area of the universe are much further along intellectually (or even evolutionarily) then it's possible that they see our planet as a wild life preserve.

    At least, that would explain why they don't interact with us, or if they do it's only enough to make UFO seekers wonder.

    If we really are the only intelligent life forms in our area of the universe, that would seem pretty exceptional. That would indicate that either they always wipe themselves out, or they're not expansionistic enough to make it this far from their home planet, or the universe is still pretty young.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    If they judge the intelligence of our species by examining our social groups and behaviors...it's no wonder they're not interested.

    We can only hope they don't look at -certain- leaders. If they do, we're toast.

    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    A lot of the aliens-invading-the-earth scenarios were thought of in a time when slavery was still in fairly recent memory and manual labour was still the driving force of the economy.

    Nowadays we realize that, with greater technology, slave labour is less and less valuable. You can't stand over people with a whip when they are doing intellectual work. It's less likely to make them think faster than it is to simply confuse and distract them so they don't get anything done.

    If advanced aliens found our planet, all they could really use it for is a wild life preserve. They can mine asteroids more easily if they need resources.

    The only way they'd invade us is if they were overpopulating aliens, and our world gave them a habitable place to expand.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    ...or they wanted our resources...

    ...or they wanted to eat us...

    ...or they thought we might become a threat...

    ...or our planet was in the way of their new highway... :P
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    The threat possibility is an interesting one. It suggests that, as long as we keep our technology below a certain level, they won't worry about us, though they might assigne a few people to observe us and make sure we don't start progressing too much.

    I don't think Earth has any resources you couldn't mine out of an asteroid much more easily, and then you wouldn't have to go to the trouble of escaping a high gravity planet.

    If the wanted to eat us, they could just grab a few of us as breeding stock and create a human being farm.

    As for highways............. given all the empty space out there, what are the odds that our planet could just so happen to be located in the path of anything?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    As for highways............. given all the empty space out there, what are the odds that our planet could just so happen to be located in the path of anything?
    Uh...that was a joke. Haven't you ever read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"?
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    Yeah...... I read it........ or at least I watched the movie. :?


    My perspective on aliens is that they're interested in our world because we have something to teach them. It seems crazy to imagine that being so, but most sightings of aliens seem to confirm that they've lost their sense of emotion.

    I wonder if losing their capacity to feel emotion was perhaps the price they paid in order to avoid nuclear anihilation when they reached the point we're at right now?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    If you're gathering that there seems to be a lack of depth and emotion in the aliens reported in alien sightings...it's probably because the loons making the stuff up are about as creatively shallow as possible.
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    in our galaxy, theres approximately 200 billion stars.
    only 5% of those stars have a size similar to our sun.
    thats about 10 billion stars.
    lets say only 5% of those stars have planets the size of earth.
    thats about 500 000 000 earth sized planets.
    now lets say only 5% of those earth sized planets have life developed similarly to our own.
    thats still 25 million planets with life like earth.

    now if only 5% of those planets had a head start of say... 1000-3000 years,
    negligible numbers in an astronomical timescales, but 3000 years of alternating wars and scientific progress can mean a LOT,
    theres still a MILLION civilizations that had the possibility to develop far beyond us.
    and remember, these numbers are derived from generously pessimistic assumptions.
    and if 95% of those civlizations wiped themselves out in planet-spanning antimatter wars, that would still mean 62 500 civilizations with technology
    far beyond our own, capable of at least traversing their own solar systems with ease. and thats being pessimistic.

    and remember, i didn't consider any of the OTHER galaxies.
    and theres one hundred billiion of them.
    so you might as well multiply 62 500 with one hundred billion.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    in our galaxy, theres approximately 200 billion stars.
    only 5% of those stars have a size similar to our sun.
    thats about 10 billion stars.
    lets say only 5% of those stars have planets the size of earth.
    thats about 500 000 000 earth sized planets.
    now lets say only 5% of those earth sized planets have life developed similarly to our own.
    thats still 25 million planets with life like earth.

    now if only 5% of those planets had a head start of say... 1000-3000 years,
    negligible numbers in an astronomical timescales, but 3000 years of alternating wars and scientific progress can mean a LOT,
    theres still a MILLION civilizations that had the possibility to develop far beyond us.
    and remember, these numbers are derived from generously pessimistic assumptions.
    and if 95% of those civlizations wiped themselves out in planet-spanning antimatter wars, that would still mean 62 500 civilizations with technology
    far beyond our own, capable of at least traversing their own solar systems with ease. and thats being pessimistic.
    And there are 100 billion galaxies or more (yes definatley) out there too who knows if they mastered infinite velocity or time travel as well.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    It becomes a question of how far you think technology can *ever* go, then. History tells us that pretty much every generation thought they'd pushed the envelope as far as it could be pushed, and every generation was wrong.


    People in the 1800's thought heavier than air flight would never be possible.

    People before the early 1900's would never have imagined that splitting atoms would facilitate bombs that blow up full cities.

    Who ever imagined we'd reach the moon?


    So........... now people want to say the speed of light is an unbreakable speed limit? Sure it is, as far as we know right now.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Forum Freshman Lightingbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Saint Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    in our galaxy, theres approximately 200 billion stars.
    only 5% of those stars have a size similar to our sun.
    thats about 10 billion stars.
    lets say only 5% of those stars have planets the size of earth.
    thats about 500 000 000 earth sized planets.
    now lets say only 5% of those earth sized planets have life developed similarly to our own.
    thats still 25 million planets with life like earth.

    now if only 5% of those planets had a head start of say... 1000-3000 years,
    negligible numbers in an astronomical timescales, but 3000 years of alternating wars and scientific progress can mean a LOT,
    theres still a MILLION civilizations that had the possibility to develop far beyond us.
    and remember, these numbers are derived from generously pessimistic assumptions.
    and if 95% of those civlizations wiped themselves out in planet-spanning antimatter wars, that would still mean 62 500 civilizations with technology
    far beyond our own, capable of at least traversing their own solar systems with ease. and thats being pessimistic.

    and remember, i didn't consider any of the OTHER galaxies.
    and theres one hundred billiion of them.
    so you might as well multiply 62 500 with one hundred billion.
    Agreed^^^

    I say that all the time about pushing our limits. I've heard so many people with stern beliefs about how the universe works, dark matter, black holes, life on other worlds, system travel, and etc. My biggest conflict has always been how can we even really talk about what we cannot do and we still are stuck on the planet? They are all theories to me. Life exists on other worlds, I firmly believe that. There is no solid prove to say otherwise or to say I'm wrong. Every bit of logic that is used to say, "theres not enough time", "its too random", or "we were just lucky" , all of that is just assumptions and theories.

    Any real scientist should and must know that. Not to mention anyone with any real logical mindset. Theres a whole universe of things we don't understand. Yet in still there are so many professionals explaining things and defining things as fact and "must be".

    Its all theory to me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    well, i can say with 100% certainty that theres at least 1 other highly developed intelligent civilization out there.
    the question is, is it even possible for them to have developed the technology to traverse the universe? would 3000 years be enough? or would it require millions of years of research?
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    My only concern is that we have enough problems talking to each other...What makes us so confident that communications with another world will be great?
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Freshman Lightingbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Saint Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    63
    Deja the more I read your input about the amount of stars and possiblily of life. The more it hits home. Its simply amazing how big our galaxy is alone. It just doesnt really make any logical sense that life, err other life cannot exist. Based on that information, how can we be the only living and thinking beings?

    Is it possible that we are the only ones? Sure.

    Likely we are not alone... based on the sheer vast possiblities I say again.

    No way.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    My only concern is that we have enough problems talking to each other...What makes us so confident that communications with another world will be great?
    It's a very good point. Maybe we should hope we don't make contact. My thinking, however, is that, if they got past their own nuclear weapons dillema, then they're probably not expansionists, so at least they won't attack us.


    On the other hand, they won't take to kindly to the idea if we start going out into space and claiming territory as our own, unless its all territory they didn't want. Just because they aren't interested in crowding us out doesn't mean they're ok with us crowding them out.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Professor WVBIG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    1,059
    Here is my new theory on alien abduction: "Memories" of alien abduction experiences are actually memories, warped by time, of birth.

    Q. What do we first see when we are born?
    A. A large brightly lighted room full of "beings" that look strange to us
    Q. Who do we first see when we are born?
    A. A bunch of "people" which because of the masks & caps, had no visible mouths, noses, or hair, & very noticeable eyes. But they must have mouths because we hear them speaking & if they have eyes & mouths, they must have noses. Even if they are very small. Plus, consider how a hand looks compared to a hand with a surgical glove on it.

    The "large eyes, small mouths, small noses, no hair" all fits the classic description of an alien. The procedures people report aliens performing on them could actually be the clipping of the umbilical chord and/or circumcission. I realize the idea of even a sliver of a memory from that far back being recalled in any form is out there. But is it really as far out there as the idea of aliens & alien abduction? I recently saw the last interview by the late Betty Hill. In it she said the doctor she & her husband Barney were going to referred them to a hypnotherapist "who told them" their memories had been blocked & he had unblocked them.
    Steven
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    625
    If I may, the idea that all alien species wipe themselves out at some point in their future can be shown to be extremely unlikely if there were many alien societies. The chances of every single one dying off decrease as the number of specie goes up, and increase if only a few alien societies have ever existed.

    Taken from this point of view, I doubt every alien society will wipe itself out. If they exist.

    Which scientist are you talking about?
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •