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Thread: Where Does Our Energy Go When We Die

  1. #1 Where Does Our Energy Go When We Die 
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    Iím new to the site but am looking for a forum where I can discuss this topic seriously without getting hassled.
    Its my belief that everything is energy and Iíve had unusual life experiences that has proved this to me.
    Ive looked up some scientific information about this which I will add.


    Most people donít consider that we are made from pure energy and that everything in life is made up from it. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed so it never disappears. It just changes form.


    The human body is 99% made from atoms of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen.
    In quantum physics studying the atom even further, there is merely just waves of energy.
    Energy. This energy can be measured but not seen by the naked eye.


    Every cell in our body is made up of these atoms that are continuously giving off and absorbing light and energy at all times so every cell in our body is giving off 1.4 volts. Multiply that by the number of cells in the body (50 trillion) and you get a total of 700 million volts of electricity. The Chinese call this energy Chi. This energy can also be measured.


    Since energy cannot be destroyed, then where does this energy go when we die?

    Can anyone here explain this ?
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here or would this be considered spiritual stuff and not scientific stuff?


    OR is this too deep a topic to try and discuss on an online forum?


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  3. #2  
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    Moved to Pseudo.
    "Chi" is unmitigated nonsense and the claim "we are made from pure energy" isn't supported.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    I’m new to the site but am looking for a forum where I can discuss this topic seriously without getting hassled.
    Its my belief that everything is energy and I’ve had unusual life experiences that has proved this to me.
    Ive looked up some scientific information about this which I will add.


    Most people don’t consider that we are made from pure energy and that everything in life is made up from it. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed so it never disappears. It just changes form.


    The human body is 99% made from atoms of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen.
    In quantum physics studying the atom even further, there is merely just waves of energy.
    Energy. This energy can be measured but not seen by the naked eye.


    Every cell in our body is made up of these atoms that are continuously giving off and absorbing light and energy at all times so every cell in our body is giving off 1.4 volts. Multiply that by the number of cells in the body (50 trillion) and you get a total of 700 million volts of electricity. The Chinese call this energy Chi. This energy can also be measured.


    Since energy cannot be destroyed, then where does this energy go when we die?

    Can anyone here explain this ?
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here or would this be considered spiritual stuff and not scientific stuff?


    OR is this too deep a topic to try and discuss on an online forum?
    There seem to be a lot of misconceptions here. Volts are not energy, for a start.

    Secondly I don't know where you get your figure of 1.4V for a cell, but what does it mean? A potential difference has to be a difference between two points. What points would these be?

    Thirdly, you can only add up the voltage if you arrange sources of potential differences in series. Obviously a human body is not arranged in this way and, if it were, and your 1.4V figure were correct, there would be a huge spontaneous electrical discharge (the breakdown voltage of air is 3000v/cm.)

    So a lot of what you have said does not make sense, scientifically speaking.

    As for what happens to energy when we die, the energy in our bodies is mainly chemical energy in the biochemistry of our cells and thermal energy from our body heat. We all know dead bodies go cold, so that tells you what happens to the heat: it is lost to the environment. The biochemical energy takes longer to dissipate but does so gradually as the tissues of the body decompose.

    So perhaps the key issue from this is to understand from where you get this mysterious idea about a 1.4V potential being created by cells, between two points. Can you quote a source for this?
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  5. #4  
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    Ah, forgot this one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    ...the number of cells in the body (50 trillion)
    Actually it's 37.2 trillion: https://www.google.com/search?client...the+human+body
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  6. #5  
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    Ok thank you.
    I appreciate the help.
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  7. #6  
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    Since this is the internet, I don’t necessarily expect politeness from everyone but the fact that you are a moderator, I think how you answered this thread was far from professional or polite.
    Chi is a term used by the Chinese. Just because you don’t believe it, doesn’t make it nonsense.
    Pseudo science? Yeah ok!
    Genius Duck? More like arrogant fuck.


    Mod note: apologies - I hit "edit" rather than "quote" (new - temporary - computer). The main gist of your post is intact.
    Last edited by Geekette; June 6th, 2019 at 07:33 AM.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Since this is the internet, I don’t necessarily expect politeness from everyone but the fact that you are a moderator, I think how you answered this thread was far from professional or polite.
    The fact that you don't like the response doesn't make it either unprofessional or impolite.
    Chi is a term used by the Chinese. Just because you don’t believe it, doesn’t make it nonsense.
    I agree. But the fact that it is nonsense does make it nonsense. Just because someone (Chinese or not) uses a term doesn't mean that it's not outright drivel.
    Pseudo science? Yeah ok!
    Chi is not science, nor is a lot of your post: see the other replies...
    More like arrogant fuck.
    Part of my "arrogance" is justified in that I do know the difference between science and pseudoscience.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Since this is the internet, I don’t necessarily expect politeness from everyone but the fact that you are a moderator, I think how you answered this thread was far from professional or polite.
    Chi is a term used by the Chinese. Just because you don’t believe it, doesn’t make it nonsense.
    Pseudo science? Yeah ok!More like arrogant fuck.


    I think it's quite arrogant for a new member of a forum to start insulting people when they get called out for talking about unscientific and/or non-existent things on a science forum... People who have scientific training are just blunt and honest. It isn't arrogance to say nonsense is nonsense, it may be blunt and not what you want to hear but so what, reality has no obligation to fit in with what you want to be true...
    Maybe an attitude adjustment is needed or you aren't going to last long here...
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Since this is the internet, I don’t necessarily expect politeness from everyone but the fact that you are a moderator, I think how you answered this thread was far from professional or polite.
    Chi is a term used by the Chinese. Just because you don’t believe it, doesn’t make it nonsense.
    Pseudo science? Yeah ok!More like arrogant fuck.


    I think it's quite arrogant for a new member of a forum to start insulting people when they get called out for talking about unscientific and/or non-existent things on a science forum... People who have scientific training are just blunt and honest. It isn't arrogance to say nonsense is nonsense, it may be blunt and not what you want to hear but so what, reality has no obligation to fit in with what you want to be true...
    Maybe an attitude adjustment is needed or you aren't going to last long here...
    Oh well. I’m not really too concerned. I treat people how they treat me.
    The term Chi is no more psycho babble on a science forum as the term ‘nonsense’ is.
    People who have scientific training are just blunt and honest?
    Well I have no scientific training and am being blunt and honest too.... bullshit intolerant.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    I treat people how they treat me.
    Evidently not.
    I point out that your statements/ claims are not scientific and you attack me personally...
    The term Chi is no more psycho babble on a science forum as the term ‘nonsense’ is.
    Wrong.
    "Chi" has zero evidence and is utter nonsense, whereas the term "nonsense" has a valid meaning.
    Well I have no scientific training and am being blunt and honest too
    Well you may claim so, but posting nonsense and then complaining because it's pointed out as nonsense is hardly "honest"; neither, as pointed out, is your claim about how you treat people.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; June 5th, 2019 at 02:01 PM.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Most people don’t consider that we are made from pure energy and that everything in life is made up from it. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed so it never disappears. It just changes form.
    Sort of. Energy and matter are somewhat interchangeable at a high enough level; nuclear weapons operate by transforming some of its mass into energy, for example. But very, very hard to do.
    The human body is 99% made from atoms of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen.
    In quantum physics studying the atom even further, there is merely just waves of energy.
    Not quite. You could say the the subatomic particles that make up those atoms can be expressed by energies, but they are not in fact energy; they make up matter. (And "waves" of energy is generally specific to EM radiation.)
    Every cell in our body is made up of these atoms that are continuously giving off and absorbing light and energy at all times so every cell in our body is giving off 1.4 volts. Multiply that by the number of cells in the body (50 trillion) and you get a total of 700 million volts of electricity. The Chinese call this energy Chi. This energy can also be measured.
    OK that's getting a little silly. Cells do not "give off 1.4 volts" regardless what The Matrix claimed. Nerve cells maintain potential differences (about 50mV) but they are very specialized cells and you can't "use" that voltage from outside.
    Since energy cannot be destroyed, then where does this energy go when we die?
    Turns into food for bacteria.
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here or would this be considered spiritual stuff and not scientific stuff?
    You mean Qi? Qi is a metaphor to allow practitioners of acupuncture and shiatsu to guide their treatment. It certainly works as a metaphor since both acupuncture and shiatsu work and have real, measurable therapeutic results. However, that doesn't make it a real, physical energy; it just means that Eastern medical experts have agreed that it's a way of explaining the body that works for them.
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  13. #12  
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    Sorry, Geekette, you're a moron. Just being blunt and honest...
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Most people don’t consider that we are made from pure energy and that everything in life is made up from it. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed so it never disappears. It just changes form.
    Sort of. Energy and matter are somewhat interchangeable at a high enough level; nuclear weapons operate by transforming some of its mass into energy, for example. But very, very hard to do.
    The human body is 99% made from atoms of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen.
    In quantum physics studying the atom even further, there is merely just waves of energy.
    Not quite. You could say the the subatomic particles that make up those atoms can be expressed by energies, but they are not in fact energy; they make up matter. (And "waves" of energy is generally specific to EM radiation.)
    Every cell in our body is made up of these atoms that are continuously giving off and absorbing light and energy at all times so every cell in our body is giving off 1.4 volts. Multiply that by the number of cells in the body (50 trillion) and you get a total of 700 million volts of electricity. The Chinese call this energy Chi. This energy can also be measured.
    OK that's getting a little silly. Cells do not "give off 1.4 volts" regardless what The Matrix claimed. Nerve cells maintain potential differences (about 50mV) but they are very specialized cells and you can't "use" that voltage from outside.
    Since energy cannot be destroyed, then where does this energy go when we die?
    Turns into food for bacteria.
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here or would this be considered spiritual stuff and not scientific stuff?
    You mean Qi? Qi is a metaphor to allow practitioners of acupuncture and shiatsu to guide their treatment. It certainly works as a metaphor since both acupuncture and shiatsu work and have real, measurable therapeutic results. However, that doesn't make it a real, physical energy; it just means that Eastern medical experts have agreed that it's a way of explaining the body that works for them.
    Thank you very much for your respectful answer. Yes my information was WAY off . Thank you for stating that in a respectful manner.
    Yes acupuncturists, shiatsu and Reiki practitioners use Chi energy. It may be considered non sense to some but is a respected practise for many.

    THIS is the type of answer I would have expected from a respectful perspective.
    Thank you kindly.
    You are a good person billvon
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Yes acupuncturists, shiatsu and Reiki practitioners use Chi energy.
    No, they don't.
    There is no such thing as Chi energy.
    It may be considered non sense to some but is a respected practise for many.
    And many people believe that the world is flat, that we never landed on the Moon or that there was once a world-encompassing flood.
    The number - or intensity - of believers has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity or otherwise of a belief.
    Chi IS - demonstrably - nonsense.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    I’m new to the site but am looking for a forum where I can discuss this topic seriously without getting hassled.
    Its my belief that everything is energy and I’ve had unusual life experiences that has proved this to me.
    Ive looked up some scientific information about this which I will add.


    Most people don’t consider that we are made from pure energy and that everything in life is made up from it. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed so it never disappears. It just changes form.


    The human body is 99% made from atoms of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen.
    In quantum physics studying the atom even further, there is merely just waves of energy.
    Energy. This energy can be measured but not seen by the naked eye.


    Every cell in our body is made up of these atoms that are continuously giving off and absorbing light and energy at all times so every cell in our body is giving off 1.4 volts. Multiply that by the number of cells in the body (50 trillion) and you get a total of 700 million volts of electricity. The Chinese call this energy Chi. This energy can also be measured.


    Since energy cannot be destroyed, then where does this energy go when we die?

    Can anyone here explain this ?
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here or would this be considered spiritual stuff and not scientific stuff?


    OR is this too deep a topic to try and discuss on an online forum?
    There seem to be a lot of misconceptions here. Volts are not energy, for a start.

    Secondly I don't know where you get your figure of 1.4V for a cell, but what does it mean? A potential difference has to be a difference between two points. What points would these be?

    Thirdly, you can only add up the voltage if you arrange sources of potential differences in series. Obviously a human body is not arranged in this way and, if it were, and your 1.4V figure were correct, there would be a huge spontaneous electrical discharge (the breakdown voltage of air is 3000v/cm.)

    So a lot of what you have said does not make sense, scientifically speaking.

    As for what happens to energy when we die, the energy in our bodies is mainly chemical energy in the biochemistry of our cells and thermal energy from our body heat. We all know dead bodies go cold, so that tells you what happens to the heat: it is lost to the environment. The biochemical energy takes longer to dissipate but does so gradually as the tissues of the body decompose.

    So perhaps the key issue from this is to understand from where you get this mysterious idea about a 1.4V potential being created by cells, between two points. Can you quote a source for this?
    Thank you VERY much for your respectful answer.
    My figures were WAY off. My source was some random webpage which clearly was a big mistake.
    I suppose I was just curious how electricity works in the human body to allow us all to function like we do. I find it most fascinating but unfortunately am not quite smart enough to understand it all.
    You explained that in a way that I can understand it without being condescending.
    Once again, thank you for that. THIS is how I expected to be addressed.
    This has made my day.
    Speaking of which, have a wonderful day.
    It looks like a beautiful one here
    Last edited by Geekette; June 6th, 2019 at 07:29 AM.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Yes acupuncturists, shiatsu and Reiki practitioners use Chi energy.
    No, they don't.
    There is no such thing as Chi energy.
    It may be considered non sense to some but is a respected practise for many.
    And many people believe that the world is flat, that we never landed on the Moon or that there was once a world-encompassing flood.
    The number - or intensity - of believers has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity or otherwise of a belief.
    Chi IS - demonstrably - nonsense.
    Oh I am so DONE with you Ducky.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Oh I am so DONE with you Ducky.
    In other words you're going to ignore the science and stick with your belief - got it.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  19. #18  
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    Nope. Just ignoring the DUCKY!
    The science part I’m absorbing from the other respectful members
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    I’m new to the site but am looking for a forum where I can discuss this topic seriously without getting hassled.
    Its my belief that everything is energy and I’ve had unusual life experiences that has proved this to me.
    Ive looked up some scientific information about this which I will add.


    Most people don’t consider that we are made from pure energy and that everything in life is made up from it. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed so it never disappears. It just changes form.


    The human body is 99% made from atoms of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen.
    In quantum physics studying the atom even further, there is merely just waves of energy.
    Energy. This energy can be measured but not seen by the naked eye.


    Every cell in our body is made up of these atoms that are continuously giving off and absorbing light and energy at all times so every cell in our body is giving off 1.4 volts. Multiply that by the number of cells in the body (50 trillion) and you get a total of 700 million volts of electricity. The Chinese call this energy Chi. This energy can also be measured.


    Since energy cannot be destroyed, then where does this energy go when we die?

    Can anyone here explain this ?
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here or would this be considered spiritual stuff and not scientific stuff?


    OR is this too deep a topic to try and discuss on an online forum?
    There seem to be a lot of misconceptions here. Volts are not energy, for a start.

    Secondly I don't know where you get your figure of 1.4V for a cell, but what does it mean? A potential difference has to be a difference between two points. What points would these be?

    Thirdly, you can only add up the voltage if you arrange sources of potential differences in series. Obviously a human body is not arranged in this way and, if it were, and your 1.4V figure were correct, there would be a huge spontaneous electrical discharge (the breakdown voltage of air is 3000v/cm.)

    So a lot of what you have said does not make sense, scientifically speaking.

    As for what happens to energy when we die, the energy in our bodies is mainly chemical energy in the biochemistry of our cells and thermal energy from our body heat. We all know dead bodies go cold, so that tells you what happens to the heat: it is lost to the environment. The biochemical energy takes longer to dissipate but does so gradually as the tissues of the body decompose.

    So perhaps the key issue from this is to understand from where you get this mysterious idea about a 1.4V potential being created by cells, between two points. Can you quote a source for this?
    Thank you VERY much for your respectful answer.
    My figures were WAY off. My source was some random webpage which clearly was a big mistake.
    I suppose I was just curious how electricity works in the human body to allow us all to function like we do. I find it most fascinating but unfortunately am not quite smart enough to understand it all.
    You explained that in a way that I can understand it without being condescending.
    Once again, thank you for that. THIS is how I expected to be addressed.
    This has made my day.
    Speaking of which, have a wonderful day.
    It looks like a beautiful one here
    So are you going to provide me with a source for this 1.4V per cell claim you have made, or not?
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    [

    There seem to be a lot of misconceptions here. Volts are not energy, for a start.

    Secondly I don't know where you get your figure of 1.4V for a cell, but what does it mean? A potential difference has to be a difference between two points. What points would these be?

    Thirdly, you can only add up the voltage if you arrange sources of potential differences in series. Obviously a human body is not arranged in this way and, if it were, and your 1.4V figure were correct, there would be a huge spontaneous electrical discharge (the breakdown voltage of air is 3000v/cm.)

    So a lot of what you have said does not make sense, scientifically speaking.

    As for what happens to energy when we die, the energy in our bodies is mainly chemical energy in the biochemistry of our cells and thermal energy from our body heat. We all know dead bodies go cold, so that tells you what happens to the heat: it is lost to the environment. The biochemical energy takes longer to dissipate but does so gradually as the tissues of the body decompose.

    So perhaps the key issue from this is to understand from where you get this mysterious idea about a 1.4V potential being created by cells, between two points. Can you quote a source for this?
    Thank you VERY much for your respectful answer.
    My figures were WAY off. My source was some random webpage which clearly was a big mistake.
    I suppose I was just curious how electricity works in the human body to allow us all to function like we do. I find it most fascinating but unfortunately am not quite smart enough to understand it all.
    You explained that in a way that I can understand it without being condescending.
    Once again, thank you for that. THIS is how I expected to be addressed.
    This has made my day.
    Speaking of which, have a wonderful day.
    It looks like a beautiful one here
    So are you going to provide me with a source for this 1.4V per cell claim you made, or are you going to retract the claim, having thought about it some more? I am fine with either.
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    No I am not going to provide a source for this information.
    I think stating that my figures were way off and that my source was some random webpage which was clearly a mistake should be enough for people to understand I’m not making an accurate claim. In fact, I didn’t make any claim. I merely added some info which I asked for verification on. I got the verification, claimed my mistake , thanked the posters for their help.
    That’s it. I don’t see what providing a source of wrong information is going to accomplish.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    No I am not going to provide a source for this information.
    I think stating that my figures were way off and that my source was some random webpage which was clearly a mistake should be enough for people to understand I’m not making an accurate claim. In fact, I didn’t make any claim. I merely added some info which I asked for verification on. I got the verification, claimed my mistake , thanked the posters for their help.
    That’s it. I don’t see what providing a source of wrong information is going to accomplish.
    OK that's fine. Just want to make sure the issue can be closed, that's all.
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    Yes consider it closed thank you.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here.
    While you are misunderstanding the chi energy as described in Tai Chi or Chi Kung (Qigong), the practice does appear to tap into the electricity in the body to improve health and circulation (as experienced by small shocks to anyone who takes the time and effort to practice it).
    The Chinese are not idiots. They developed these systems hundreds if not thousands of years ago in an attempt to keep the body healthy. In Qigong alone there are believed to be over 3000 forms. I do an hour of Qigong practice every day and it definitely works with the chi growing with practice over time.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    the practice does appear to tap into the electricity in the body
    "Appear" being the operative word here.
    it definitely works with the chi growing with practice over time.
    The word "appear (or variations thereof)" should also have been included at least once in this claim, too.
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  27. #26  
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    Well obviously the Nobel Prize winning molecular biologist Elizabeth Blackburn is wrong about Qigong and the gloomy duck is right.
    Should have known better.

    https://www.elle.com/life-love/news/...nd-cell-aging/
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Well obviously the Nobel Prize winning molecular biologist Elizabeth Blackburn is wrong about Qigong and the gloomy duck is right.
    Should have known better.

    https://www.elle.com/life-love/news/...nd-cell-aging/
    And where, please, does she talk about "electricity in the body"?

    So far as I can see, all she is saying that psychologically well-adjusted people live longer and that mind-body techniques of any kind can help.
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    Or how about reading her best seller The Telomere Effect.

    Obviously you are well placed to comment on Tai Chi or Qigong because you have been practicing it for at least 15 minutes a day for 3 months.
    So what is your explanation for how this remarkable practice which is done by deluded people all over the world to improve their health and well-being actually works?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Or how about reading her best seller The Telomere Effect.
    Have you?
    Does she talk about "electricity in the body"?
    (Is that book a peer-reviewed paper? No - ergo "appear" is the best you can claim so far).

    So what is your explanation for how this remarkable practice which is done by deluded people all over the world to improve their health and well-being actually works?
    Because it's exercise, and that is what the book claims. Any mild aerobic exercise is what (so far1) she states to be effective.

    1 From blurb/ puff pieces about the book. I'll read the book itslef in the next couple of days.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; June 10th, 2019 at 11:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Because it's exercise, and that is what the book claims. Any mild aerobic exercise is what (so far[sup1[/sup]) she states to be effective.

    1 From blurb/ puff pieces about the book. I'll read the book itslef in the next couple of days.
    It would be better to test Qigong yourself and reach your own conclusion. It was kept secret until recently when China opened up to the world. There is plenty of resource on YT. Start with the 5 elements, 8 brocades or 10 symbols.
    I only said Qigong does appear to tap into the body's electricity, based upon the sensations that are felt by practice over time. I did not say it definitely does, so I fail to see your problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Or how about reading her best seller The Telomere Effect.

    Obviously you are well placed to comment on Tai Chi or Qigong because you have been practicing it for at least 15 minutes a day for 3 months.
    So what is your explanation for how this remarkable practice which is done by deluded people all over the world to improve their health and well-being actually works?
    I don't have to have my own explanation to tell that yours is crap. What is this "electricity in the body"?

    The practice may do people good, just as yoga - or prayer - can. But that does not entitle you make up shit about the mechanism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    It was kept secret until recently
    Nonsense.
    I only said Qigong does appear to tap into the body's electricity
    Which is exactly what I pointed out: appear.
    I did not say it definitely does, so I fail to see your problem.
    Then why bother replying to my post that made the point that "appear" is the best you've got?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    While you are misunderstanding the chi energy as described in Tai Chi or Chi Kung (Qigong), the practice does appear to tap into the electricity in the body to improve health and circulation (as experienced by small shocks to anyone who takes the time and effort to practice it).
    Nope. It's not electricity. That's been demonstrated.
    The Chinese are not idiots.
    No one claims they are. They do what works.

    Let's take a Western example. Hundreds of years ago, doctors in training in London hospitals would often do dissections on recently deceased (often diseased) patients, then would go straight back to patient's rooms to do minor surgeries, deliveries etc. They did not wash their hands; doctors were not considered to be people who got their hands dirty - they were more noble than that. A lot of people died.

    One day one doctor had a theory that it was evil humours who were causing all the deaths in their patients. He had some doctors use perfume to dispel the evil humors. Death rates went down. He decided that he had proven that evil humours were the cause of death in the hospital.

    He, of course, neglected to note that the perfume had an alcohol base, and at that point they didn't understand germ theory.

    But his solution worked, sort of, and saved a lot of patients. He was doing the right thing, even if the reasoning wasn't quite sound. Qi is similar. A method that undoubtedly works, but that has been "explained" by a lot of nonsense.
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    Ox, have you actually looked at what medical studies say about Ti Chi, or have you simply swallowed the Dick Van Dyke infomercials hook line and sinker?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here.
    While you are misunderstanding the chi energy as described in Tai Chi or Chi Kung (Qigong), the practice does appear to tap into the electricity in the body to improve health and circulation (as experienced by small shocks to anyone who takes the time and effort to practice it).
    The Chinese are not idiots. They developed these systems hundreds if not thousands of years ago in an attempt to keep the body healthy. In Qigong alone there are believed to be over 3000 forms. I do an hour of Qigong practice every day and it definitely works with the chi growing with practice over time.
    Thank you for your info. The Chinese are not idiots . These practices are thousands of years old.
    As a holistic practitioner I come across this type of thing often.

    Conventional practitioners don’t take kindly to ancient wisdom.

    You’ll have the same nah slayers here and to me it’s not worth arguing.

    Acupuncture and acupressure works by increasing blood flow to the places where there is pain and has worked for centuries.

    i looked up Qigong. Very interesting. I think I might try it.
    Thanks again. It’s nice meeting like minded people.
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    These practices are thousands of years old.
    It doesn't make the claims valid though.
    Conventional practitioners don’t take kindly to ancient wisdom.
    Mainly because "ancient wisdom" turns out to be A) not wisdom at all and B) complete bunk.
    Acupuncture and acupressure works by increasing blood flow to the places where there is pain and has worked for centuries.
    Actually neither of them "work by increasing blood pressure" (nor do they claim to) and, largely, they don't work any better than placebos.
    holistic practitioner
    Another snake oil "remedy".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    These practices are thousands of years old.
    It doesn't make the claims valid though.
    Conventional practitioners don’t take kindly to ancient wisdom.
    Mainly because "ancient wisdom" turns out to be A) not wisdom at all and B) complete bunk.
    Acupuncture and acupressure works by increasing blood flow to the places where there is pain and has worked for centuries.
    Actually neither of them "work by increasing blood pressure" (nor do they claim to) and, largely, they don't work any better than placebos.
    holistic practitioner
    Another snake oil "remedy".



    This section was put here by you. It’s in the pseudo science section. A section designated for discussions on theories, mythologies and practices that DO NOT conform to what is currently accepted by the scientific community. It’s ‘apparently’ NOT a flame section.


    Not a flame section meaning that it’s not meant to be a section where members get hassled needlessly.


    Oddly enough I am getting hassled in a section you put me in that clearly states the information does not conform to what is currently accepted. So are we not in the right section to discuss what we’d like to discuss without getting hassled by a moderator who moved the post to this very section???


    I stated I’m not trying to make any claims here or do you plan on pouncing on every single statement made?


    By the way, this has nothing to do with snake oil but I didn’t really expect you to know that.
    I’m not trying to debate with you. Get a clue! Please!
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    What a hostile place this is.
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    Only to the unscientific and terminally bewildered...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Only to the unscientific and terminally bewildered...
    Do you get some type of joy commenting on everything I say ?

    Its in the psuendo science section so of course it’s unscientific.
    Were you expecting something different?
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    Stop being a petulant child.
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    [QUOTE=Geekette;623761][QUOTE=ox;623652]
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here.
    Thank you for your info. The Chinese are not idiots . These practices are thousands of years old.
    As a holistic practitioner I come across this type of thing often.

    Conventional practitioners don’t take kindly to ancient wisdom.

    You’ll have the same nah slayers here and to me it’s not worth arguing.

    Acupuncture and acupressure works by increasing blood flow to the places where there is pain and has worked for centuries.

    i looked up Qigong. Very interesting. I think I might try it.
    Thanks again. It’s nice meeting like minded people.
    You miss the point of the criticisms. Nobody is telling you these practices have no therapeutic value.

    What people are rightly objecting to is unscientific use of terms such as "energy" and "electricity", which have defined meanings in science. It is sadly the case that a lot of purveyors of alternative medicine fill their patients' heads with nonsense about such things, while trying to provide rationales for how their treatments work. That sort of thing spreads ignorance about science within the population, whereas forums such as this one are dedicated to the opposite, namely promoting of scientific understanding.

    Earlier in this thread I gave you a dispassionate answer to your question about energy in the body, and we established that the idea you had picked up from somewhere about voltage was false information. So far, so good.

    Ox then introduced a vague and nonsensical statement about "electricity in the body". This was rightly given short shrift, as it has no scientific basis.

    You now say that acupuncture works by stimulating blood flow. Can you provide any links or references to support that claim? I ask because it seems to be at odds with this paper, which attributes the effectiveness of acupuncture to something else entirely: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996195/

    As a scientific person I am always interested to learn how such things work. But I mean how they really work, rather than in terms of pseudoscientific myths.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Stop being a petulant child.
    So in another words, NO! You’re not!
    It doesn’t matter what I say, you’re gonna just being a hater cause that’s what haters do.
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    [QUOTE=exchemist;623772][QUOTE=Geekette;623761]
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Does anyone else believe in this Chi energy here.
    Thank you for your info. The Chinese are not idiots . These practices are thousands of years old.
    As a holistic practitioner I come across this type of thing often.

    Conventional practitioners don’t take kindly to ancient wisdom.

    You’ll have the same nah slayers here and to me it’s not worth arguing.

    Acupuncture and acupressure works by increasing blood flow to the places where there is pain and has worked for centuries.

    i looked up Qigong. Very interesting. I think I might try it.
    Thanks again. It’s nice meeting like minded people.
    You miss the point of the criticisms. Nobody is telling you these practices have no therapeutic value.

    What people are rightly objecting to is unscientific use of terms such as "energy" and "electricity", which have defined meanings in science. It is sadly the case that a lot of purveyors of alternative medicine fill their patients' heads with nonsense about such things, while trying to provide rationales for how their treatments work. That sort of thing spreads ignorance about science within the population, whereas forums such as this one are dedicated to the opposite, namely promoting of scientific understanding.

    Earlier in this thread I gave you a dispassionate answer to your question about energy in the body, and we established that the idea you had picked up from somewhere about voltage was false information. So far, so good.

    Ox then introduced a vague and nonsensical statement about "electricity in the body". This was rightly given short shrift, as it has no scientific basis.

    You now say that acupuncture works by stimulating blood flow. Can you provide any links or references to support that claim? I ask because it seems to be at odds with this paper, which attributes the effectiveness of acupuncture to something else entirely: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996195/

    As a scientific person I am always interested to learn how such things work. But I mean how they really work, rather than in terms of pseudoscientific myths.
    Oh now I miss the point of the criticisms.
    No I don’t. You people criticize because that’s what you enjoy doing.
    Here in a section where members SHOULD be able to safely talk about stuff that’s not scientifically proven, you keep harping on about how it not scientific.

    “As a scientific person you are always interested in how things work so you hang out in the ‘pseudo science’ section where you are SURE to trip someone up” is MORE what you MEANT to say.

    Well how very NOBLE of you.

    Was a miserable thing to do but clearly you get off on it.
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  46. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Stop being a petulant child.
    So in another words, NO! You’re not!
    It doesn’t matter what I say, you’re gonna just being a hater cause that’s what haters do.

    ...and your last two posts are what petulant children do. Whine rather than address criticism. I'm done with you.
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  47. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Oh now I miss the point of the criticisms.
    No I don’t. You people criticize because that’s what you enjoy doing.
    Here in a section where members SHOULD be able to safely talk about stuff that’s not scientifically proven, you keep harping on about how it not scientific.

    “As a scientific person you are always interested in how things work so you hang out in the ‘pseudo science’ section where you are SURE to trip someone up” is MORE what you MEANT to say.

    Well how very NOBLE of you.

    Was a miserable thing to do but clearly you get off on it.
    This is an irrational response. I meant what I said. I also took the trouble to look up and post a link to a piece of serious and interesting research, that has been done on acupuncture, so you and I could get started on a proper scientific discussion of how it works. Have you looked at it? And have you any reference I can read to support what you you said about blood flow? The Pseudo section is not intended to be a safe space for people to talk nonsense without challenge. This is a science forum, after all. If you want to talk science about acupuncture, or anything else you are involved in, I'll be interested. But if you want the freedom to make up unfounded assertions, you have come to the wrong forum.


    By the way, I do not "hang out" on any particular section of this forum. What I do is look in from time to time on mainly the physical science sections, because that is the area of science I studied at university and have used, off and on, in the course of my career. If you recall, this thread actually started out in the Physics section, where I gave you perfectly civil response to your first question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Stop being a petulant child.
    So in another words, NO! You’re not!
    It doesn’t matter what I say, you’re gonna just being a hater cause that’s what haters do.

    ...and your last two posts are what petulant children do. Whine rather than address criticism. I'm done with you.
    I DID address your criticism. You are all criticizing that there’s no proven science in a section about PSEUDO SCIENCE.
    So YES you SHOULD be done with me cause there’s nothing logical that you CAN say. That’s why you’ve resorted to general TROLL like BEHAVIOUR!!!

    .... you sorry lot of losers.
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    And if YOU recall, the thread was INSTANTLY tossed into this section right from the start , where I should have been able to discuss this PSEUDO stuff WITHOUT being hassled but you boys were having too much fun acting like childish BULLIES to care.
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  50. #49  
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    The pseudoscience subforum is the section for ideas that are couched as science, but do not follow one or more aspect of science. Threads in the pseudoscience section are still subject to being discussed in terms of science, rather then being exempt from scientific scrutiny.
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    A section designated for discussions on theories, mythologies and practices that DO NOT conform to what is currently accepted by the scientific community.
    Quite.
    On the other hand it's also NOT a place to promote pseudoscience as if it were valid.
    It’s ‘apparently’ NOT a flame section.
    Strange that you should point this out since, thus far, the closest to flaming we've had in this thread is your resort to personal attacks.
    Not a flame section meaning that it’s not meant to be a section where members get hassled needlessly.
    1) That's not what "flaming" means.
    2) You aren't being hassled "needlessly", you're havibg your errors and unsupported claims being pointed out as such.
    Oddly enough I am getting hassled in a section you put me in that clearly states the information does not conform to what is currently accepted.
    The fact that it's in this sub-forum is not a free licence to continue to push falsehoods/ unverified claims/ etc as if they had any validity (especially when the scientific data shows that they ARE invalid).
    I stated I’m not trying to make any claims here or do you plan on pouncing on every single statement made?
    Then why do actually make claims and state things flatly?
    If you posed questions rather than bare statements perhaps you'd fare better.
    By the way, this has nothing to do with snake oil but I didn’t really expect you to know that.
    Actually it is snake oil. Unless, of course, you have valid studies showing otherwise (in which case I'll retratct my criticisms and apologise).[quote]
    I’m not trying to debate with you. Get a clue! Please!
    Then stop posting unsupported drivel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    where I should have been able to discuss this PSEUDO stuff WITHOUT being hassled
    And yet - despite claiming to love science and to have studied it - you have persisted (without anything more than "Well the Chinese aren't stupid" as "support") in your position that chi isn't pseudo: apart from all the other specious claims (which you have, irrationally, denied being claims).
    If you wish to discuss woo perhaps you'd be better off finding a woo - rather than science - forum.
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  53. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    And if YOU recall, the thread was INSTANTLY tossed into this section right from the start , where I should have been able to discuss this PSEUDO stuff WITHOUT being hassled but you boys were having too much fun acting like childish BULLIES to care.
    One person can't discuss, and this is not a place for blogs. I engaged you in discussion and offered to continue it. But after all these other posts of yours speculating about people's motives, I get the feeling that discussion is not going to happen. So, having been sufficiently provoked by you, I'm going to take a leaf from your book and speculate about your motives.

    I reckon you don't much like the of a science discussion about your ideas, because you've realised it will be too rigorous and you fear exposure and ridicule. So instead, you have decided to make it about personalities (with a dash of sexism?), so that you can reach for the mantle of victimhood, as you are now doing.
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    With regard to Ox's claim about the book The Telomere Effect:
    Here's something about the alleged "electrical effects": tingling sensation in the tips of their fingers (called chi/Qi sensation). This is partly due to the now-well-understood mechanisms of the relaxation response, which involves the activation of the parasympathetic nervous system and the dilation of blood vessels, creating new blood flow. This feeling is attributed to something from Chinese medicine that we have no concept for in our Western knowledge: chi/Qi energy flow.
    So not only is it not "electricity" but it's also (at least "partly") something already understood by non-Chinese non-superstitious science. Note also that it's stated in the book to be "attributed" (but not shown or verified) to "energy flow". As a non-speaker of Chinese I see also that Qi apparently can mean, merely, "sensation" (first use in the quote) as well as "energy" - that's not a cause for confusion is it?
    Other than the quote and vague waffling about the benefits of qi gong (which, on each occasion it's mentioned just happens to be included with other - far less woo-ey - practices) we have one citation about the effects of qi gong on diabetes: conclusion - results suggest favourable effects, no definitive conclusion and a call for large randomized clinical trials to prove the effectiveness.
    Another citation for its effectiveness re depression concludes: it appears to be beneficial for reducing depression with the caveat that the low quality of studies and the documented evidence of publication bias means that those results should be viewed cautiously.
    On a side note roughly a decade ago I was diagnosed with clinical depression and the doc suggested that ANY regular mild exercise would alleviate the symptoms. I discovered that I got quite a bit of relief when, upon moving house, I had to to do quite a bit of packing of books.... (and none of them were mystical or contained electricity).
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  55. #54  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    With regard to Ox's claim about the book The Telomere Effect:
    Here's something about the alleged "electrical effects": tingling sensation in the tips of their fingers (called chi/Qi sensation). This is partly due to the now-well-understood mechanisms of the relaxation response, which involves the activation of the parasympathetic nervous system and the dilation of blood vessels, creating new blood flow. This feeling is attributed to something from Chinese medicine that we have no concept for in our Western knowledge: chi/Qi energy flow.
    So not only is it not "electricity" but it's also (at least "partly") something already understood by non-Chinese non-superstitious science. Note also that it's stated in the book to be "attributed" (but not shown or verified) to "energy flow". As a non-speaker of Chinese I see also that Qi apparently can mean, merely, "sensation" (first use in the quote) as well as "energy" - that's not a cause for confusion is it?
    Other than the quote and vague waffling about the benefits of qi gong (which, on each occasion it's mentioned just happens to be included with other - far less woo-ey - practices) we have one citation about the effects of qi gong on diabetes: conclusion - results suggest favourable effects, no definitive conclusion and a call for large randomized clinical trials to prove the effectiveness.
    Another citation for its effectiveness re depression concludes: it appears to be beneficial for reducing depression with the caveat that the low quality of studies and the documented evidence of publication bias means that those results should be viewed cautiously.
    On a side note roughly a decade ago I was diagnosed with clinical depression and the doc suggested that ANY regular mild exercise would alleviate the symptoms. I discovered that I got quite a bit of relief when, upon moving house, I had to to do quite a bit of packing of books.... (and none of them were mystical or contained electricity).
    That is interesting. As is the link I posted on acupuncture, which again suggests it is to do with the response of the nerves. A lot of these things will be further obscured by the placebo effect, since the people resorting to these treatments will most often do so with a predisposition to believe in them.
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    With reference to "partly being attributable to an understood mechanism": for the benefit of the woo-mongers among us that does not allow room for, much less validate, any claims of some mysterious "energy" for which there is no evidence whatsoever.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Thank you for your info. The Chinese are not idiots . These practices are thousands of years old.
    As a holistic practitioner I come across this type of thing often.
    While you can't deny western medicine it is still not a perfect system. Drugs can produce side effects. There is still no guaranteed cure for cancer (I've had two). Still no cure for asthma. I've had it all my life, but my symptoms have been alleviated by qigong.

    Conventional practitioners don’t take kindly to ancient wisdom.
    That's because there is no money to be made.

    You’ll have the same nah slayers here and to me it’s not worth arguing.
    The ducks and demons here are a bit like someone describing the experience of flying without ever having flown.

    i looked up Qigong. Very interesting. I think I might try it.
    Forget yoga, it causes injuries, does little for the circulation and takes too long. Tai Chi can take years to learn.
    Qigong is a holistic system, ticking all the boxes. Muscles, tendons, joints, bones, circulation, cells, telomeres, mental health.
    The only very small drawback is that only practice can make perfect. Try it for 15 minutes a day for 3 months and find the chi growing like compound interest.
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    I posted my question and instantly got told the Chi is unmitigated NONSENSE with no claims to back it up. What is nonsense supposed to mean? I could not find it in any science books!


    Then I get told that only people with scientific training can use the term nonsense.


    Ok then. I point out that I’m not trying to make any claims and get told I’m a MORON by someone of course who has scientific training to use the term correctly.


    I state that I wasn’t trying to make any claims in the pseudo science section and even pointed out that I was fine with being wrong about my information but that wasn’t good enough.


    I then get asked for a reference which I declined because, once again, I’m not trying to prove anything so the thread was considered closed which I was ok with.


    Another member who comes in who understands the terms I’m using so we start a conversation which get picked apart by you lot . When he asks for an explanation he gets told that he doesn’t need an explanation because it’s all just CRAP and NONSENSE.


    With my response I get told it’s a SNAKE OIL REMEDY and COMPLETE BUNK!


    What’s snake oil got to do with the conversation? Or is this once again a term only people with scientific training can use?




    When I state that all of this is in the pseudo science part and state word for word what it says it’s for on the forum I get told that I’m wrong again and called a PETULANT CHILD.


    Then I get told I’m missing the point of the criticisms and once again get lectured and once again told its NONSENSE!


    When I mention I’m getting unfairly picked on I get called a WHINER!


    Then I get told by Daffy Duck that I’m not getting picked on ; I’m just getting my unsupported claims corrected by people using terms like:


    Nonsense
    Crap
    Moron
    Complete Bunk
    Snake oil remedy
    Unsupported DRIVEL?


    Such scientific terms you all use. LOL!


    I got told I’m trying to promote something.
    What am I trying to promote? I’m retired for goodness sake. LOL!


    And I WAS having a conversation with OX but you lot ( with all the scientific training) came down like vultures to attack everything said with all these scientific words like nonsense, crap, complete bunk, unsupported drivel, snake oil remedy .


    Because ALL scientists use words like CRAP, NONSENSE, DRIVEL, & BUNK when they are proving their points.


    I tried looking up these SCIENTIFIC terms you are using to make your claims and NONE of them EXIST so I rest my case.


    So carry on and pretend that you aren’t arrogant vultures out to prove how superior you are!!!


    The one thing you ARE right about is that this is NOT a site for me. While I do have a degree in biology and USUALLY enjoy discussing science , I don’t really like the company here.




    UNSUBSCRIBED!!!!!
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  59. #58  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    While you can't deny western medicine it is still not a perfect system.
    Beside the point.
    That's because there is no money to be made.
    Oops wrong.
    Once - if - any of these "ancient practices" are validated then someone will find a way to make money out of them (how much were you charged for your lessons in qi gong for example)?
    Simply claiming that "non-profitability" is the "reason" that certain practices aren't adopted is not a good argument.
    The ducks and demons here are a bit like someone describing the experience of flying without ever having flown.
    And yet that statement is - so far - your "best" argument.
    Rather than denigrate posters have you considered supporting your claims and thus refuting their arguments?
    Forget yoga, it causes injuries
    Ah right. A side effect then, just like "Western medicine"
    Qigong is a holistic system, ticking all the boxes. Muscles, tendons, joints, bones, circulation, cells, telomeres, mental health.
    Again, qi gong has not been shown to do things that other things cannot do.
    find the chi growing like compound interest.
    You mean "become more convinced that the bullsh*t is real" don't you?
    Unless, of course, you have reliable support for the claim.
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    Hi Ox! It truly WAS nice chatting with you.
    I’m a retired holistic nutritionist by trade so understand your language.
    Thank you for being kind and considerate to me. You are a good person.
    I sincerely appreciated it.

    Take care

    note: you and I could get into some very interesting conversations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    I posted my question and instantly got told the Chi is unmitigated NONSENSE with no claims to back it up.
    I didn't need to back it up: you gave a bare-faced statement (without support), I responded in kind.
    What is nonsense supposed to mean? I could not find it in any science books!
    In ANY? I doubt that. For the record "nonsense", while not being a scientific term, IS a valid English word.
    As a side note: did you find "chi" in any science books?
    Then I get told that only people with scientific training can use the term nonsense.
    If you have to invent excuses... (i.e you weren't told that at all).
    Ok then. I point out that I’m not trying to make any claims
    Except that you did make claims (or at least wrote so sloppily that that your "not claims" were indistinguishable from actual claims.
    and get told I’m a MORON by someone of course who has scientific training to use the term correctly.
    Now go back and take a look at the context in which the word "moron" was used.
    I state that I wasn’t trying to make any claims in the pseudo science section and even pointed out that I was fine with being wrong about my information but that wasn’t good enough.
    And then you came back (post 35) with statements giving the distinct impression that you hadn't accepted that you were wrong.
    I then get asked for a reference which I declined because, once again, I’m not trying to prove anything so the thread was considered closed which I was ok with.
    YOU may have considered your part in the thread closed, but Ox joined in... (and then your post 35 again).
    Another member who comes in who understands the terms I’m using
    Except that the term has no scientific validity whatsoever.
    With my response I get told it’s a SNAKE OIL REMEDY and COMPLETE BUNK!
    Do you have any valid sources that say otherwise?
    What’s snake oil got to do with the conversation?
    Google is your friend: a substance with no real medicinal value sold as a remedy for all diseases., a product, policy, etc. of little real worth or value that is promoted as the solution to a problem.

    When I state that all of this is in the pseudo science part
    Which part of "Threads in the pseudoscience section are still subject to being discussed in terms of science, rather then being exempt from scientific scrutiny" and "it's also NOT a place to promote pseudoscience as if it were valid" did you not understand?
    When I mention I’m getting unfairly picked on I get called a WHINER!
    Mainly because you aren't being "unfairly picked on".
    Because ALL scientists use words like CRAP, NONSENSE, DRIVEL, & BUNK when they are proving their points.
    While I admit the possibility of there being some scientists that don't use one or more of those terms your statement is, in the large, quite factual.
    I tried looking up these SCIENTIFIC terms you are using to make your claims and NONE of them EXIST so I rest my case.
    Which begs the question - and I'm being really blunt here: are you so stupid that you actually think those words used are used as "scientific terms" or are you now trolling? (How many of the words used in the OP would you find in a scientific dictionary?)
    While I do have a degree in biology
    And how much of that degree involved "chi"? None at all I'll bet. So why are you ignoring your scientific education in favour of unsupported crap?
    and USUALLY enjoy discussing science
    Given the multiple and egregious errors in your first post in this thread, and the continued insistence that there's some validity to qi that's not at all evident.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; June 12th, 2019 at 12:17 PM.
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    And again with your bullshit assertion regarding yoga. (Anyone can get hurt doing anything so your claim is bollocks)

    No money to be made? Then why the hell is Dick Van Dyke doing hour long infomercials for it??? There hella money to be made off gullible people. Just look at the price of a poor quality quarts crystal in a rock show and the same crystal in a alt healing store, the price will be exponentially higher due to assertions of "energy"
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  63. #62  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    how much were you charged for your lessons in qi gong for example?
    Virtually nothing. I have viewed for free the YT videos, and all of them are great.
    I have never been to lessons on Tai Chi or Qigong.
    I have been to some yoga lessons, but would not recommend it. Yoga is not suitable for everyone.
    I paid 10 pence for a book on Tai Chi and Qigong sold off from a library and that's all.

    Ah right. A side effect then, just like "Western medicine"
    Correct. Yoga causes injuries. It works off the idea of NO PAIN NO GAIN.
    Never known that with Qigong.

    (find the chi growing like compound interest)
    You mean "become more convinced that the bullsh*t is real" don't you?
    Unless, of course, you have reliable support for the claim.
    Anyone practitioner will tell you something like that, but there again you know nothing about it because you haven't tried it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Hi Ox! It truly WAS nice chatting with you.
    I’m a retired holistic nutritionist by trade so understand your language.
    Thank you for being kind and considerate to me. You are a good person.
    I sincerely appreciated it.

    Take care

    note: you and I could get into some very interesting conversations.
    Don't take too much notice of the duck. He just loves to pick a fight. Stay longer.
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  65. #64  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    but there again you know nothing about it because you haven't tried it.
    So, yet again, you have nothing whatsoever to offer to support the claims. Got it.
    I can see where this thread is headed...
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    Before you trash this thread, have you not yet read Blackburn's book The Telomere Effect where she endorses Qigong?

    She is the Nobel Prize winner who discovered telomerase and the telomeres' role in the aging process. In under 8 months I'll be 70. I have more energy than most people half my age.
    Challenge me to running, jogging, cycling, long distance walking, football, cricket, golf if you dare.
    It's down to telomeres and how you protect them, and Qigong is of huge benefit for this.
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  67. #66  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Before you trash this thread, have you not yet read Blackburn's book The Telomere Effect where she endorses Qigong?
    So you didn't bother to read post 53?
    and Qigong is of huge benefit for this.
    You're making stuff up - again.
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    So nothing different, essentially, from what Exchemist stated in post 3.
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    Yes not bad.

    However I can't help noticing they tiptoe round the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, consideration of which would cause the physicist in the pulpit to explain how the energy of your body is converted to low temperature heat, which is the most useless form of energy in the universe i.e. the least available to do work. This idea of energy "running down" is intrinsic to the 2nd Law and explains why spontaneous processes are irreversible. Like death, for example.
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    Ox. I do yoga every morning also and haven’t ever injured myself doing it.
    Ive been doing it for years but I’ve always wanted to do tai chi. My mom did it for years but can’t any more.
    Shes getting too old.
    Last edited by Geekette; June 14th, 2019 at 04:49 PM.
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  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Ox. I do yoga every morning also and haven’t ever injured myself doing it.
    Ive been doing it for years but I’ve always wanted to do ti chi. My mom did it for years but can’t any more.
    Shes getting to old.
    I do a home-made collection of stretch exercises every morning for back, sides, shoulders, arms, quads, hamstrings, calves and neck, taken from my years as an oarsman and they do me very nicely, with the added benefit of not being accompanied by any extraneous mumbo jumbo. They also help me with my singing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Ox. I do yoga every morning also and haven’t ever injured myself doing it.
    Ive been doing it for years but I’ve always wanted to do ti chi. My mom did it for years but can’t any more.
    Shes getting to old.
    I do a home-made collection of stretch exercises every morning for back, sides, shoulders, arms, quads, hamstrings, calves and neck, taken from my years as an oarsman and they do me very nicely, with the added benefit of not being accompanied by any extraneous mumbo jumbo. They also help me with my singing.
    Stretching is great for the physical body, especially as we age but I can’t believe you sing. That’s cool.
    I sing and play the saxophone. Not at the sane time of course.
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  74. #73  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    I do a home-made collection of stretch exercises every morning for back, sides, shoulders, arms, quads, hamstrings, calves and neck, taken from my years as an oarsman and they do me very nicely, with the added benefit of not being accompanied by any extraneous mumbo jumbo. They also help me with my singing.
    Stretching is great for the physical body, especially as we age but I can’t believe you sing. That’s cool.
    I sing and play the saxophone. Not at the sane time of course.
    Two "classical" choirs, one large (100) and one small (15). Big choir did Bach B Minor Mass last term, quite a stretch, but fantastic, with proper Baroque chamber orchestra. Little one tends to do a cappella stuff. I like Renaissance polyphony best, but we don't do too much of that as it is a bit demanding for some of the singers.
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  75. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Before you trash this thread, have you not yet read Blackburn's book The Telomere Effect where she endorses Qigong?
    So you didn't bother to read post 53?
    Which is incomplete and unintelligible.
    The biggest factor in ageing is cell damage by the shrinkage of telomeres.
    But she argues that it is possible to reverse the damage by Kriya yoga (which I can't comment on) and Qigong in particular.

    (Qigong is of huge benefit for this) You're making stuff up - again.
    Then she is making it up.
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  76. #75  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Ox. I do yoga every morning also and haven’t ever injured myself doing it.
    That's good, but try going to Ashtanga yoga classes!

    I’ve always wanted to do tai chi. My mom did it for years but can’t any more.
    Shes getting too old.
    Then I recommend her to try static Qigong which is excellent.
    The 8 Extraordinary Channels are available on YT.
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  77. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Which is incomplete and unintelligible.
    Really?
    How so?
    Or are you just going to hand wave (again)?
    The biggest factor in ageing is cell damage by the shrinkage of telomeres.
    But she argues that it is possible to reverse the damage by Kriya yoga (which I can't comment on) and Qigong in particular.
    Then please quote the part where this is claimed - and supported.
    Then she is making it up.
    Like I said, I can find generalised claims that qi gong increases telomere length but no references to actual studies that show this.
    E.g.: Several mind-body techniques, including meditation and Qigong, have been shown to reduce stress and to increase telomerase, the enzyme that replenishes telomeres.
    But I'd already noted this in post 53: Other than the quote and vague waffling about the benefits of qi gong (which, on each occasion it's mentioned just happens to be included with other - far less woo-ey - practices)
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    Conversely we do have this - Conclusions and Relevance: The findings of this study do not support a significant benefit of Baduanjin qigong on telomerase activity (from here)
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    My bad, I missed one reference in the book: Telomerase activity increased in the qigong group from 0.102 to 0.178 arbitrary units.
    For patients with chronic fatigue syndrome.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  80. #79  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Conversely we do have this - Conclusions and Relevance: The findings of this study do not support a significant benefit of Baduanjin qigong on telomerase activity (from here)
    Oh, goody. 8 Brocades are only 8 movements out of hundreds of Qigong movements, and it's a study of abuse directed at women which is very sad but not universal. But at least there is some benefit.
    The 8 Brocades are only a basic set of moves. There are more comprehensive and specialized forms. Quote studies for 18 movement Qigong, or the 10 symbols, or the 12 meridians. Each of these is more powerful than the 8 Brocades.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Oh, goody. 8 Brocades are only 8 movements out of hundreds of Qigong movements
    ...expanded from eight to twelve movements over the centuries... but keep going.
    and it's a study of abuse directed at women which is very sad but not universal.
    Correct.
    Now - as requested - please quote the parts of the book that support your contentions.
    The 8 Brocades are only a basic set of moves. There are more comprehensive and specialized forms. Quote studies for 18 movement Qigong, or the 10 symbols, or the 12 meridians. Each of these is more powerful than the 8 Brocades.
    Isn't it funny how you'll happily waffle on about qiqong (albeit, given my quote, in a misinformed way) yet continue to not provide the requested supporting quotes nor respond to other queries.
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  82. #81  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    All right. Originally 8 but having found their way into the Taoist monastery in Wudang province, China they were altered and expanded to 12. Happy now?
    The same place also changed the 5 Animals practice and the Muscle and Tendon Change Classic.

    As for the rest, have you actually read The Telomere Effect or not? It's where a Nobel Prize winning author claims the practice of Qigong, Tai Chi, yoga and meditation can help protect and even repair the telomeres.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    As for the rest, have you actually read The Telomere Effect or not?
    No. That's how I managed to find the quotes.
    It's where a Nobel Prize winning author claims the practice of Qigong, Tai Chi, yoga and meditation can help protect and even repair the telomeres.
    You persist in claiming this yet have -so far - failed to produce the multiply-asked-for quotes that support this.
    I, meanwhile, HAVE provided quotes: apart from the one study referring to a specific condition (which even you have admitted may not apply universally) any reference to what you claim is unsupported by actual science.
    Last time of asking: provide the quotes that support your contention, or do you also agree that the claims of protecting/ repairing telomeres ARE just unsupported waffle in the book with no studies to back it up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Which is incomplete and unintelligible.
    Really?
    How so?
    Or are you just going to hand wave (again)?
    The biggest factor in ageing is cell damage by the shrinkage of telomeres.
    But she argues that it is possible to reverse the damage by Kriya yoga (which I can't comment on) and Qigong in particular.
    Then please quote the part where this is claimed - and supported.
    Then she is making it up.
    Like I said, I can find generalised claims that qi gong increases telomere length but no references to actual studies that show this.
    E.g.: Several mind-body techniques, including meditation and Qigong, have been shown to reduce stress and to increase telomerase, the enzyme that replenishes telomeres.
    But I'd already noted this in post 53: Other than the quote and vague waffling about the benefits of qi gong (which, on each occasion it's mentioned just happens to be included with other - far less woo-ey - practices)
    You must have no friends. LOL!
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    I do a home-made collection of stretch exercises every morning for back, sides, shoulders, arms, quads, hamstrings, calves and neck, taken from my years as an oarsman and they do me very nicely, with the added benefit of not being accompanied by any extraneous mumbo jumbo. They also help me with my singing.
    Stretching is great for the physical body, especially as we age but I can’t believe you sing. That’s cool.
    I sing and play the saxophone. Not at the same time of course.
    Two "classical" choirs, one large (100) and one small (15). Big choir did Bach B Minor Mass last term, quite a stretch, but fantastic, with proper Baroque chamber orchestra. Little one tends to do a cappella stuff. I like Renaissance polyphony best, but we don't do too much of that as it is a bit demanding for some of the singers.
    A bit slow in response but very impressive. So you definitely sang classical professionally.
    Thats excellent. I played and sang semi professionally. Jazz band / stage band with sax for dances etc.,
    Singing was more for a pop band I was in which was lots of fun.
    Now I play and sing more for my own satisfaction.

    Instead of sight reading I’m now picking songs from the top of my head and playing them in whatever key I prefer which I like. Then I can write my own music for it and everything will be in a good key for me. I’m sure YOU can appreciate that.

    Interestingly though is when I purchased my soprano I did a lot of damage to my thumb. The reason being is that the alto saxophone is curved so the sound is projected upwards whereas my soprano is straight so the sound goes down. This makes playing the instrument more difficult for projecting a clear sound with holding the saxophone up which puts incredible pressure on the thumb.

    Note: not writing a thesis
    This is based on my saxophone playing and my own observations.
    I don’t really care if it’s not scientific.
    It’s a NORMAL conversation or it is in my opinion that is.
    Last edited by Geekette; July 10th, 2019 at 02:49 PM. Reason: To add stuff
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  86. #85  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    I do a home-made collection of stretch exercises every morning for back, sides, shoulders, arms, quads, hamstrings, calves and neck, taken from my years as an oarsman and they do me very nicely, with the added benefit of not being accompanied by any extraneous mumbo jumbo. They also help me with my singing.
    Stretching is great for the physical body, especially as we age but I can’t believe you sing. That’s cool.
    I sing and play the saxophone. Not at the same time of course.
    Two "classical" choirs, one large (100) and one small (15). Big choir did Bach B Minor Mass last term, quite a stretch, but fantastic, with proper Baroque chamber orchestra. Little one tends to do a cappella stuff. I like Renaissance polyphony best, but we don't do too much of that as it is a bit demanding for some of the singers.
    A bit slow in response but very impressive. So you definitely sang classical professionally.
    Thats excellent. I played and sang semi professionally. Jazz band / stage band with sax for dances etc.,
    Singing was more for a pop band I was in which was lots of fun.
    Now I play and sing more for my own satisfaction.

    Instead of sight reading I’m now picking songs from the top of my head and playing them in whatever key I prefer which I like. Then I can write my own music for it and everything will be in a good key for me. I’m sure YOU can appreciate that.

    Interestingly though is when I purchased my soprano I did a lot of damage to my thumb. The reason being is that the alto saxophone is curved so the sound is projected upwards whereas my soprano is straight so the sound goes down. This makes playing the instrument more difficult for projecting a clear sound with holding the saxophone up which puts incredible pressure on the thumb.

    Note: not writing a thesis
    This is based on my saxophone playing and my own observations.
    I don’t really care if it’s not scientific.
    It’s a NORMAL conversation or it is in my opinion that is.
    If you want to talk about music, we should probably do that in the Art and Culture section.
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  87. #86  
    Forum Freshman
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    I did not know there was such a section but Iím good.
    I was just politely responding to your post.
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  88. #87  
    exchemist
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekette View Post
    I did not know there was such a section but I’m good.
    I was just politely responding to your post.
    Politely? I should jolly well hope so, too.
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