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Thread: Michael Odent on "Homo, the Marine Chimpanzee"

  1. #1 Michael Odent on "Homo, the Marine Chimpanzee" 
    Forum Bachelors Degree CEngelbrecht's Avatar
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    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Birth-Homo-.../dp/1780664451

    Make of it, what you will.


    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    correlation is not causation......

    (PS, your violating the authors copyright with the images, stop it)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    correlation is not causation......
    In Scandinavia, we have a saying: Can you hear the Fenrir howl?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    (PS, your violating the authors copyright with the images, stop it)
    (PPS. You voted Trump, didn't ya?)
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    Don't troll.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    correlation is not causation......
    In Scandinavia, we have a saying: Can you hear the Fenrir howl?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    (PS, your violating the authors copyright with the images, stop it)
    (PPS. You voted Trump, didn't ya?)
    Its the same as saying global warming is caused by the decline in pirates. Theres a defined demonstrated correlation, but not relation at all in reality.

    Michel Odent is not an evolutionary biologist or palaeontologist. His training was before much of the modern paleontological information.


    Pointing out your post is a copyright violation has nothing to do with politics...
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    I don't even see a correlation.....
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I don't even see a correlation.....
    Ain't that the truth.

    Homo erectus may have been a sailor – and able to speak | The Guardian

    Last edited by CEngelbrecht; February 20th, 2018 at 07:10 AM.
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    The guy is a French obstetric surgeon who published this book when he was over 85 years old. I see that he was one of the pioneers of "birthing pools".

    It rather looks as if his sense of self-importance and lack of perspective has led him to extend this contribution to obstetric technique in a highly speculative way, to account for the origin of the whole human race!
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    The guy is a French obstetric surgeon who published this book when he was over 85 years old. I see that he was one of the pioneers of "birthing pools".

    It rather looks as if his sense of self-importance and lack of perspective has led him to extend this contribution to obstetric technique in a highly speculative way, to account for the origin of the whole human race!
    And Alfred Wegener was a wheatherman.


    There is something to be said about parsimony:

    "Since one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypotheses to prevent them from being falsified, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable."
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    Doesn't change that he's overstepping the evidence and making illogical assertions.

    Ps, why should a oral presentation at a symposium by a single researcher, with no peer review at all be treated as more then random speculation?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    The guy is a French obstetric surgeon who published this book when he was over 85 years old. I see that he was one of the pioneers of "birthing pools".

    It rather looks as if his sense of self-importance and lack of perspective has led him to extend this contribution to obstetric technique in a highly speculative way, to account for the origin of the whole human race!
    And Alfred Wegener was a wheatherman.


    There is something to be said about parsimony:

    "Since one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypotheses to prevent them from being falsified, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable."
    My understanding is that the weakness of the aquatic ape hypothesis is precisely its complete untestability, due to a reliance on speculation about soft tissues and thus a lack of prediction about what we can find in the fossil record to confirm or disprove it.

    What does this man say we should look for?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Doesn't change that he's overstepping the evidence and making illogical assertions.

    Ps, why should a oral presentation at a symposium by a single researcher, with no peer review at all be treated as more then random speculation?
    Right. "Single researcher."
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
    - Carl Sagan, 1980


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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    My understanding is that the weakness of the aquatic ape hypothesis is precisely its complete untestability, due to a reliance on speculation about soft tissues and thus a lack of prediction about what we can find in the fossil record to confirm or disprove it.
    That is your understanding. And your understanding is wrong.

    Surfers ear growth in Homo erectus skulls was predicted in the 1990s by Stephen Munro. Turned out there were indeed in there.

    https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/...sann.2017.0162

    The fossil evidence is out there. But you don't see, why you should read sources presenting that, 'cause you still think you don't have to. You still know, it is all wrong, 'cause Thrasymachus was right. The scientific method goes out the window when inconvient truth walks through the door.
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    My understanding is that the weakness of the aquatic ape hypothesis is precisely its complete untestability, due to a reliance on speculation about soft tissues and thus a lack of prediction about what we can find in the fossil record to confirm or disprove it.
    That is your understanding. And your understanding is wrong.

    Surfers ear growth in Homo erectus skulls was predicted in the 1990s by Stephen Munro. Turned out there were indeed in there.

    https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/...sann.2017.0162

    The fossil evidence is out there. But you don't see, why you should read sources presenting that, 'cause you still think you don't have to. You still know, it is all wrong, 'cause Thrasymachus was right. The scientific method goes out the window when inconvient truth walks through the door.
    So what is the fossil evidence successfully predicted by this hypothesis?
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    I can't force you out of Plato's cave. But the indications of water having had a severe impact on unique human evolution is a flash flood at this point. I guess the rest of you are just too damn high up on your mountain.

    All the purely terrestrial scenarios trying to explain our evolution amongst the apes leave nothing but questions for creationists to molest. Add water, and they're all answered.
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    My understanding is that the weakness of the aquatic ape hypothesis is precisely its complete untestability, due to a reliance on speculation about soft tissues and thus a lack of prediction about what we can find in the fossil record to confirm or disprove it.
    That is your understanding. And your understanding is wrong.

    Surfers ear growth in Homo erectus skulls was predicted in the 1990s by Stephen Munro. Turned out there were indeed in there.

    https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/...sann.2017.0162

    The fossil evidence is out there. But you don't see, why you should read sources presenting that, 'cause you still think you don't have to. You still know, it is all wrong, 'cause Thrasymachus was right. The scientific method goes out the window when inconvient truth walks through the door.
    So what is the fossil evidence successfully predicted by this hypothesis?
    So you can't even be bloody bothered to click the URL above?

    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
    - Carl Sagan, 1980


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    Fuck paradigm shift.

    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post

    So you can't even be bloody bothered to click the URL above?
    No I read it, admittedly quickly. But it is in a medical journal, and concerns the bony growths that occur in some humans who spend a lot of time in the water. The tendency to develop these outgrowths, when repeatedly immersed, is general to a wide variety of mammals (even guinea pigs). It is clearly therefore not a evolutionary change that can be traced in the fossil record as species evolve. It is more like joint damage from running or something, i.e. something which can be seen in individuals practising a particular lifestyle.

    There was a mention of finding this characteristic in neanderthals, who are not thought to be our ancestors, but I did not see - perhaps I missed it - fossil evidence showing that a large proportion of skulls, from an early hominid species recognised as one of our direct ancestors, have these outgrowths.

    Clearly, finding just one skull with this won't do, as it not an inherited adaptation that is present in a whole population. It arises from the lifestyle of the individual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post

    So you can't even be bloody bothered to click the URL above?
    No I read it, admittedly quickly.
    Exactly, to find the comma sentence, that'll help confirm your prenegative...

    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    But it is in a medical journal, and concerns the bony growths that occur in some humans who spend a lot of time in the water. The tendency to develop these outgrowths, when repeatedly immersed, is general to a wide variety of mammals (even guinea pigs).
    "When repeatedly immersed." I'll leave that as is.

    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    It is clearly therefore not a evolutionary change that can be traced in the fossil record as species evolve. It is more like joint damage from running or something, i.e. something which can be seen in individuals practising a particular lifestyle.
    Exactly, the lifestyle of being in water for hours a week throughout their lifespan, all while becoming an ape with less and less fur and a drastically expanding brain best fed by bleedin' seafood.



    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    There was a mention of finding this characteristic in neanderthals, who are not thought to be our ancestors, but I did not see - perhaps I missed it - fossil evidence showing that a large proportion of skulls, from an early hominid species recognised as one of our direct ancestors, have these outgrowths.
    Basic facts: One, neanderthals are direct descendant from erectus; two, four percent of your gene mass would be neanderthal, unless you're of African-SoS heritage, which would make neanderthals your direct ancestors too, alongside sapiens.

    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Clearly, finding just one skull with this won't do, as it not an inherited adaptation that is present in a whole population. It arises from the lifestyle of the individual.
    Right. These erectines could not have grown this feature in their lifespan, unless they had spent hours in water a week for years. Anything you don't understand?

    How would that not confirm what the likes of Elaine Morgan was talking about for decades? Along with archeological evidence of hominins somehow also reaching distant islands.
    Last edited by CEngelbrecht; February 20th, 2018 at 11:59 AM.
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post

    Basic facts: One, neanderthals are direct descendant from erectus; two, four percent of your gene mass would be neanderthal, unless you're of African-SoS heritage, which would make neanderthals your direct ancestors too, alongside sapiens.

    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Clearly, finding just one skull with this won't do, as it not an inherited adaptation that is present in a whole population. It arises from the lifestyle of the individual.
    Right. These erectines could not have grown this feature in their lifespan, unless they had spent hours in water a week for years. Anything you don't understand?

    How would that not confirm what the likes of Elaine Morgan was talking about for decades? Along with archeological evidence of hominins somehow also reaching distant islands.
    I asked where is the fossil evidence. You have not addressed that question. I conclude there is none.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    I asked where is the fossil evidence. You have not addressed that question. I conclude there is none.
    "Good day, fellow Axe handle." Is that the level we're at now? I just answered. I don't see any reason to give you the exact same answer twice. Or are you trying to have me banned from these talks, because "he avoids answering to counter questions," even though I quite demonstrably do for anyone with eyes in their head? That tactics has worked before with you ignants, and because Thrasymachus was right, it will probably work again. 'Cause who really gives a shit about human origin?

    "Ever talked to someone, that didn't like an answer you give them, so they just pretend, you didn't say it?"

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    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    I bet you already reported me to the moderators for refusing to answer direct questions, didn't ya? And they couldn't be bothered to read through the entire thread, 'cause this guy supports the aquatic ape lunacy, and we all know these lunatics believe in mermaids and ha, ha, ha...
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post
    I bet you already reported me to the moderators, didn't ya?
    What for? Paranoia?
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    Just ignore him, he's an obvious loony.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    I asked where is the fossil evidence. You have not addressed that question. I conclude there is none.
    "Good day, fellow Axe handle." Is that the level we're at now? I just answered. I don't see any reason to give you the exact same answer twice. Or are you trying to have me banned from these talks, because "he avoids answering to counter questions," even though I quite demonstrably do for anyone with eyes in their head? That tactics has worked before with you ignants, and because Thrasymachus was right, it will probably work again. 'Cause who really gives a shit about human origin?

    "Ever talked to someone, that didn't like an answer you give them, so they just pretend, you didn't say it?"

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    There was no mention of fossil evidence in your reply, so far as I can see. Maybe I have misunderstood you. Would you oblige by copying just the line or lines in which you answer this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Just ignore him, he's an obvious loony.
    It's gonna be a glorious day, when the faculties finally get their head out of their ass, and you're all proven to be ignorant little wankers pissing on your own giants. So we're an old beach ape, so fucking what?
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    There was no mention of fossil evidence in your reply, so far as I can see. Maybe I have misunderstood you. Would you oblige by copying just the line or lines in which you answer this?
    These erectines could not have grown this feature [surfer's ear exostosis] in their lifespan, unless they had spent hours in water a week for years.

    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    Yeah, it's fun trolling around with someone taking shit serious, init?
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    Thanks for proving my point...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Thanks for proving my point...
    You ever been pissed down your back by people not knowing what the fuck they're talking about? For years? When not a single one of them is capable of giving you a straight answer as to why you're so obviously wrong? Ever burned at the stake for reading banned volumes everyone thinks they know the content of? How would you react?

    I have spent all my patience for human stupidity a long time ago.


    "Waterside hypotheses of human evolution assert that selection from wading, swimming and diving and procurement of food from aquatic habitats have significantly affected the evolution of the lineage leading to Homo sapiens as distinct from that leading to Pan."
    - Elaine Morgan & Algis Kuliukas, 2013
    "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. (History) shows us clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
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    This is now in the appropriate forum... Wait for the tedious tantrum about the move
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    There was no mention of fossil evidence in your reply, so far as I can see. Maybe I have misunderstood you. Would you oblige by copying just the line or lines in which you answer this?
    These erectines could not have grown this feature [surfer's ear exostosis] in their lifespan, unless they had spent hours in water a week for years.

    And yet the paper says that this feature is developed by swimmers during their individual lifetimes, i.e. it is not generally present in the rest of the population. So the growths are not an inherited feature, evidently.

    Furthermore the tendency to grow them is not an evolutionary adaptation in hominids either, since even guinea pigs grow them too, if subjected to cold water. It seems to be a rather general mammalian feature.

    So it proves nothing, except that some of the population whose skulls were inspected spent time in the water. Which is interesting, certainly, but tells us nothing about the habits of their ancestors, so far as I can see.

    So no fossil evidence of an aquatic ape ancestor, just evidence that some of our Neanderthal cousins swam or dived.
    Last edited by exchemist; February 20th, 2018 at 03:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    This is now in the appropriate forum... Wait for the tedious tantrum about the move
    Heh heh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht View Post
    You ever been pissed down your back by people not knowing what the fuck they're talking about? For years?
    Yep - every time you post about your "aquatic ape" religion. (Although I wouldn't call it "pissed down your back" - more like "watching someone else piss into the wind.")
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    When not a single one of them is capable of giving you a straight answer as to why you're so obviously wrong?

    What irks me over the years.... a complete refusal to listen despite being told hundreds of times and often in very specific ways why "aquatic ape" ideas, are rejected.
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