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Thread: Electromagnetic perception in animals & fish

  1. #1 Electromagnetic perception in animals & fish 
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    Hello all,

    To pose the question.

    Whom here knows or is a specialist of such posed in the title above?


    Thanks


    EMR15


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  3. #2  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    Whom here knows or is a specialist of such posed in the title above?
    Where will this get you?

    Why do you want a specialist in this area? Do you just want to know out of curiosity? Or do you want to ask them questions? If the latter then why don't you point out your full question, and wait for someone to reply?!?


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  4. #3  
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    A specialist in the EM perception of aquatic organisms? That's an awfully specialized field to expect anyone from this forum to be an expert. Perhaps you could contact a marine biologist at a local university?
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  5. #4  
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    Last edited by MindlessMath; March 26th, 2014 at 09:30 AM. Reason: bad grammar
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  6. #5  
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    Yeah, please ask the question, then we will know if we are experts or not. Some questions can be answered very easily, and some can't at all. It really depends.. Trust us .
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    You might look into this http://jeidbioassessment.wikispaces....NETIC+SPECTRUM

    Humans are rather limited compared to many other creatures in our physical perception apparati, but we can see effects from outside of our physical senses to investigate and create things to investigate that which is beyond our physical senses. Not sure we know of any other species that can do this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    You might look into this http://jeidbioassessment.wikispaces....NETIC+SPECTRUM

    Humans are rather limited compared to many other creatures in our physical perception apparati, but we can see effects from outside of our physical senses to investigate and create things to investigate that which is beyond our physical senses. Not sure we know of any other species that can do this.
    I disagree, we are adequately adapted to what we should be able to perceive. We may smell less than dogs, but we see more, we may hear less, but we can feel more, and taste more. It's all in the balance..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  9. #8  
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    March 16th, 2014, 03:31 AM
    Hello all,

    To pose the question.

    Whom here knows or is a specialist of such posed in the title above?


    Thanks


    EMR15


    If you could be be a little more precise with the question, I may be able to offer some assistance.
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  10. #9  
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    I have many questions, but I can start with suppose one immediate/significant one would be:


    Electro-receptors in varied life forms has there been any studies into the process & the sensitivity, the distance of the capability i.e. of the varied species. Fish in water (stingray) for example the water has a dampening effect on the electromagnetic signal of prey fish attenuating the EMR that the stingray can detect.


    EMR15
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    I have many questions, but I can start with suppose one immediate/significant one would be:


    Electro-receptors in varied life forms has there been any studies into the process & the sensitivity, the distance of the capability i.e. of the varied species. Fish in water (stingray) for example the water has a dampening effect on the electromagnetic signal of prey fish attenuating the EMR that the stingray can detect.


    EMR15
    Too garbled. Can you at least put this into decent English, to give us a sporting chance of understanding what you are on about? Since you are in Reading, I'm assuming your command of English ought to be up to the task.
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  12. #11  
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    Oh, I don't know, I worked in Reading for a while and with some of the locals that would be an unsafe assumption
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    I have many questions, but I can start with suppose one immediate/significant one would be:


    Electro-receptors in varied life forms has there been any studies into the process & the sensitivity, the distance of the capability i.e. of the varied species. Fish in water (stingray) for example the water has a dampening effect on the electromagnetic signal of prey fish attenuating the EMR that the stingray can detect.
    These fish detect electric fields, not electromagnetic radiation. (Well, obviously, if they have eyes they also detect electromagnetic radiation. )

    Have there been any studies? Of course. electroreception fish - Google Scholar

    Does water have a dampening effect? Quite the reverse; the reason this is most common in aquatic animals is because water is a better conductor than air.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  14. #13  
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    Yeah, I moved again.


    I kind of feel like an R&D Eng. for hire traveling all the time and constantly moving, Winchester now by the way.

    Summary:

    Electro-receptors process & methodology?
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    Yeah, I moved again.


    I kind of feel like an R&D Eng. for hire traveling all the time and constantly moving, Winchester now by the way.

    Summary:

    Electro-receptors process & methodology?
    OK if you're an engineer you will know the difference between EM radiation and an electrostatic field. Electroreception concerns the latter only:Electroreception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The only detection of EM radiation by organisms that I am aware of is detection of light (including near UV in some creatures) and in the IR-microwave region due to perception of heat.
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  16. #15  
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    Well aware of the difference thanks.

    I'm referring to the creatures physical 'electro-receptors' capability to detect electron variations in the surrounding environment of both magnetic radiation and/or biomagnetic radiation to what degree are they sensitive etc... & everything in between.

    I was not referring to the term 'electroreception'.

    I must dash. Stuff to do. Cheers.
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  17. #16  
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    Electroreception sounds like it could be a more pseudoplausible explanation for people who think they can see "auras" than for telepathy. Have there been any experiments done to determine whether people who claim to be able to see auras are more sensitive (or even capable) of electroreception?
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  18. #17  
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    What is the difference between "electroreceptors" and "electroreception"?

    Anyway: electroreceptors fish - Google Scholar

    And, as the name suggest, electroreceptors detect electric fields, not "electron variations" or "magnetic radiation" (whatever they are).
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    Well aware of the difference thanks.

    I'm referring to the creatures physical 'electro-receptors' capability to detect electron variations in the surrounding environment of both magnetic radiation and/or biomagnetic radiation to what degree are they sensitive etc... & everything in between.

    I was not referring to the term 'electroreception'.

    I must dash. Stuff to do. Cheers.
    What do you mean by "biomagnetic radiation"? Does this exist? And have you any references explaining what it is?

    (I have to say the needle on my MacGyver patent woometer is starting to move off its end stop.)
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  20. #19  
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    If it's anything like the other thread in Trash he will claim to have evidence and have done "research"1 but he is "too busy" to present it so instead just flaps his arms about wafting a wind of woo (a shame he isn't too busy for that really...)

    1. I'm guessing by this he means he's watched a few yootube vids made by nutters and read a few crank websites, his apparent scientific illiteracy and made up terms would support this.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    If it's anything like the other thread in Trash he will claim to have evidence and have done "research"1 but he is "too busy" to present it so instead just flaps his arms about wafting a wind of woo (a shame he isn't too busy for that really...)

    1. I'm guessing by this he means he's watched a few yootube vids made by nutters and read a few crank websites, his apparent scientific illiteracy and made up terms would support this.
    Well it's a bit baffling, certainly. Apparently it's about "electro-receptors" but not about electroreception. There seems to be a conviction that organisms detect radio waves or something. So far as I know, they don't. And I don't follow where the stingray comes into the picture either. There is an electric ray of course. But that has nothing to do with radio waves.

    But there is one stingray that can receive and transmit radio waves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E06cNv55jTs
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  22. #21  
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    Yes, there are two ways that fish use electroreception: passive where they just detect the electric fields of other organisms, and active where they generate a field and detect disturbances in it caused by other organisms (a bit like radar without using electromagnetic radiation ).

    As far as I know, there are no animals that use radar!
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  23. #22  
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    Interesting. 'and active where they generate a field and detect disturbances'. Something I have not considered.


    What of animals that navigate using the earths magnetic field? i.e. Birds, mammals, turtles and potentially whales too, bee's also being able to detect charges on plant flowers so they don't visit the same flower twice etc...
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    Interesting. 'and active where they generate a field and detect disturbances'. Something I have not considered.


    What of animals that navigate using the earths magnetic field? i.e. Birds, mammals, turtles and potentially whales too, bee's also being able to detect charges on plant flowers so they don't visit the same flower twice etc...
    The common feature of all these effects is they involve STATIC fields, or slow and non-periodic variations in them. So no EM radiation.
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  25. #24  
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    exchemist,

    Are there any papers that I can read on the process, how the process works etc.... that you can suggest?

    EMR15
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    exchemist,

    Are there any papers that I can read on the process, how the process works etc.... that you can suggest?

    EMR15
    Why not start with Wiki? There is stuff there on electroreception and magnetoception. And you will find these articles contain reference sources.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    exchemist,

    Are there any papers that I can read on the process, how the process works etc.... that you can suggest?

    EMR15
    Did you look at the links I provided?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  28. #27  
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    Sorry no, I am now though.

    When short on time I skim over things.


    Thanks
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  29. #28  
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    'Double-blind, independent replication is crucial before any finding should be accepted as an established fact'.


    I like this quote. (By C.Giovanni Galizia on 'Electrorecption').
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  30. #29  
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    It's not a specific quote attributable to Galizia. It's a statement about the scientific method, attributable to absolutely everyone who considers themself a scientist.
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  31. #30  
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    I'll add since the question has been posed why have I posted this blog etc..., also as comments have been made on other such related topics too regarding research on EMP & BEMR.

    The reasons: 'posts' regarding 'electromagnetic perception' & related topics is so that others can provide an input on the science and I can discover the truth or fact if you will, thus far I have had little scientific input from most were as others have been helpful.


    To those whom have been helpful, thanks.

    To those whom wish to argue etc.... I have no interest.


    EMR15
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    Hello all,

    To pose the question.

    Whom here knows or is a specialist of such posed in the title above?


    Thanks


    EMR15
    Sharks have ampule de Lorenzini that's all I know. I think fish scales is a dermis derivative and has some sort of similar taxis.
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndresKiani View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    Hello all,

    To pose the question.

    Whom here knows or is a specialist of such posed in the title above?


    Thanks


    EMR15
    Sharks have ampule de Lorenzini that's all I know. I think fish scales is a dermis derivative and has some sort of similar taxis.
    Thanks for this. I looked up Ampoule de Lorenzini and found a nice Wiki article explaining how this works to sense minute electric fields in water. You learn something every day.

    (Note for EMR15: These are STATIC fields, or ones that change slowly with time, in a non-periodic way. They do NOT indicate detection - still less emission - of EM radiation of any kind. And they have nothing to do with magnetism.)
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  34. #33  
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    Thanks, for the input.

    With respect to the passive electro-receptors can any one recommend books that go into detail on the molecular biochemical composition and functional process of the sensors?


    i.e the mitochondria cell levels, associated Axion's and dendrites composite.


    EMR15
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR15 View Post
    Thanks, for the input.

    With respect to the passive electro-receptors can any one recommend books that go into detail on the molecular biochemical composition and functional process of the sensors?


    i.e the mitochondria cell levels, associated Axion's and dendrites composite.


    EMR15
    This maybe irrelevant. .

    Biochemical approach is mostly protein pathways.
    Molecular approach is mostly DNA, RNA, genetically based approach.

    Neuroscience approach is what you would be looking.
    Cell biology maybe also.
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  36. #35  
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    Fishes have a laterline system in their dermis which is derived from a mesodermal origin. They have special taxis system of neuromasts along this line which are special sense receptor organs. Basically, what happens is that the receptor will receive vibrations of bioelectrical field (electrical field that all organisms have). Thus once vibrations are recieved the ampullae de Lorenzini in sharks or neuromasts in fishes may or may not shoot a signal, depending on whether or not the threshold irratibility has been overpassed. Neuromasts and the Ampullae de Lorenzini are just an aggregate of specialized neurons. The sharks ampullae de Lorenzini is located around their rostrum region, while the fishes' neuromasts are located around their lateral regions.
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  37. #36  
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    I took an Animal neurophysiology class as an elective.
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  38. #37  
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    The chemistry is similar to any other neuron. To keep it basic...When the threshold irratibility is met, this sends an action potential causing a self propagating depolarization of the axon (ion channel Na+ K+ transition as we all know). Once the action potential reaches the end of the axon near the presynaptic hillock.. this allows for a rush of Ca++ to be released from the ER membrane. Once released, the Ca++ will adhere to the membrane of vesicles(which contain neurotransmitters) that contain specific receptors for Ca++. This copulation initiates the release of these .neurotransmitters into synapses, which will be taken up by dendrites of postsynaptic neurons depending on the neural pathway.

    Typing on my phone is annoying apologize for any typos..
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