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Thread: Dark matter

  1. #1 Dark matter 
    Forum Ph.D. Cat1981(England)'s Avatar
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    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6235751.stm

    In the news today, just in case u miss it.

    BTW in future should i post a link like this under - Links - In the news - or under the subject it is connected to ?


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  3. #2 what is dark matter ? 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    not wanting to seem stupid. (no comments please megabrain lol)
    but what actually IS dark matter ?

    Is it exotic particles / matter ?
    or is it matter, but stuff that doesnt reflect light, such as large clumps of iron ?


    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  4. #3  
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    All that matter required to keep a galaxy together where curently the estimates are that that they should not be!

    So galaxaies are predicted to fly apart which is based on matter estimated from astronomical observations. They do not appear to fly apart so dark matter is proposed to be the 'missing mass'.

    You could have googled that and saved me the effort, but as I like you...

    What actually is it? we er don't know but there has to be some in our galaxy....
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  5. #4 could it be........ 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    Could it be something similar to the local fluff that we are now passing through ?
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  6. #5 Re: could it be........ 
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    Could it be something similar to the local fluff that we are now passing through ?
    uh? Explain... Try to use words that might have some bearing in science,
    as 'A local bit of fluff' has a precise meaning here. :wink:
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  7. #6  
    Forum Senior miomaz's Avatar
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    Could dark matter be matter on another dimension besides our "three"space dimensions? (and one time dimension)
    Cince we can't see the matter (it dosn't emitt nor cast shadows from other stars) but gravety takes affect on it.

    Seemingly gavety dosn't pull matter over the 4[S]D axis just over the other 3[S]D's.
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  8. #7  
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    Does it matter?
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  9. #8 no. 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    No I very much doubt that if matter were on a different dimension it would not affect ours; if you believe in string theory or M-theory, even the matter we are made from oscilates in 11 dimensional space. But anyway........no, dark matter could be made from WIMPS or possibly even something entirely different. A different type of matter; affected by gravity but without having charge (possibly)
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  10. #9  
    Forum Senior miomaz's Avatar
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    No I very much doubt that if matter were on a different dimension it would not affect ours
    Acctually i just sayed the direct opposite:

    dark matter is matter on higher dimensions(4[S]D= the fourth space dimension, not time) pulling them towards it but not in the 4[S]D axis.

    [theory]

    If matter where affected in the 4[S]D axis, life in the way we now know it would be impossible, we would have an extra dimension to move in.
    Some would say "great!" but this has 1 problem, the pull of gravety would
    not be enough for matter to hold right, to little space to clump together.

    Dark matter can be at the same position as a galaxie on a different 4[S]D 'layer' this would make it possible for more matter to reassemble at that point with 1/2 of the needed mass (without flying appart).

    Does it matter?
    yes.



    MOD EDIT: You are drifting off here, please stick to dark matter as science understands it today, otherwise it's psuedo-science! - Megabrain.
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  11. #10  
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    the definition i prefer for dark matter is; all matter that in space that for whatever reason is not visible to us. this has nothing to do with the exotic light travels through, or there in another dimension. we cant see gravity or radio waves, but they apparently exist. we don't even see light waves, but they give us sight.

    all the things that make up what we see have given off multiple amounts of debris and much of what is forming has no means to reflect light from distant places to show us whats going on.

    as to things drifting, even at high speeds, would seemingly not need a reason to maintain that drift. our atmosphere has no reason to drift into empty space, from the upper levels but does not even with the speed the earth is moving.
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  12. #11  
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    invisable matter? This is very unlikely compared to what i sayed


    this has nothing to do with the exotic light travels through, or there in another dimension.
    No,no. You missunderstand me.

    If the following is true:

    -garvety "bends" lights path.

    -we have more than our known 4 dimensions

    -matter can exist on a higher dimension


    this would be a basic idea of the fourth spaceial dimension:
    layer 1 (our know universe in 3d ofcourse)
    layer 2 (a second layer of "universe" containing also matter)

    what happenes:

    1.light travels though space.
    2.light is bent by gravety eventough matter isn't there in 3d space.

    Besides that it makes sense , I can proove it to you.

    what are the simptoms of matter on higher dimensions like the forth spacial one? Because, this is exactly what you would expect.

    This is defenitly not psuedo-science since it all was prooven alreday light is bent by gravety (or if you perfer; matter that bends space), the ten dimensions exist and mass defenitly can exist on other dimensions.

    you have nothing to put against me. Why attack and not say somthing loggically disprooving me, or else I will never keep my mouth shut.
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  13. #12  
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    miomaz; certainly i would not attack a view. any view or opinion, since thats why explore these forums to begin with....

    some think light travels through matter (matter as we understand it) and this is exotic dark matter. my opinion is these things are below our visual capabilities. put another way, if anything was bright enough to reflect an image of something, it has to be in our eye/brain ability. no doubt this stuff would be seen if we get or were close enough.

    neither am i questioning additional possible dimensions. frankly i think there are likely quite a few. an additional amount of energy sight however would not be an added dimension. now if we could see energy in motion this could be an added dimension.

    what you see as color, some others do not. some have no sense of color and see in black and white only. color is not called a dimension, but its not l-w-d-t.

    yes matter could exist in another dimension, but not the matter we understand. i like using the dream analogy. none of what is in your dream is real. but while your mind places you in the realm (or dimension?) the event is very real.

    one last thing, i do not judge what is real or hypothetical science. i feel anything is possible, unless its really well proved. indisputable so to speak.
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  14. #13  
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    miomaz; certainly i would not attack a view. any view or opinion, since thats why explore these forums to begin with....
    good. I forgot to write that the last part wasn't ment for you. Sorry.
    my opinion is these things are below our visual capabilities. put another way, if anything was bright enough to reflect an image of something, it has to be in our eye/brain ability. no doubt this stuff would be seen if we get or were close enough.
    Of what I have understood, what you are saying is:

    the matter is to ........ to be traced or reflected by light(or our eye/brain ability; ).

    - but wait a minute... we live in the 20th century and have camaras/computers that do the job for us

    - dark matter is near us, every galaxie has dark matter, sometimes holding it together.(but not the other way around)

    so you're theory might have its problems.(pausable)

    what you see as color, some others do not. some have no sense of color and see in black and white only. color is not called a dimension, but its not l-w-d-t.
    I agree, I see how you combined this example with you're theory.

    yes matter could exist in another dimension, but not the matter we understand. i like using the dream analogy. none of what is in your dream is real. but while your mind places you in the realm (or dimension?) the event is very real.
    why would higher dimensions not be bound to the (our)laws of physics?
    We clearly see that the first 3 spacial dimensions and the first time dimension are all bound to the same rules, It would be nearly impossible that these laws abruptly change that this point. I do not understand.

    This would be the case by parallel Universes, different laws of physics, other world , like a dream, but still real.
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  15. #14  
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    yes, our technology can see many things we do not. for instance Hubble can take in an image from places well beyond our sight or any land based telescope. however it is limited and must have reflections to give an image.

    much of energy (what light is), is not seen by us. radio waves to gamma rays are seen through devices and we see or hear what the device allows.
    its that energy from places where nothing should be that gave rise to dark matter. the idea of dark matter holding a galaxy together is based on the idea, nothing else explains how this happens. many if not most question this as a possibility.

    our laws of physics are based or give reasoning for things we see, feel or expect to be. i am sure those attempting to understand dark matter have an understanding of possibilities based on current principles. to add a dimension to perception could happen, but it would be a change in us to allow it. we may actually see in five or ten dimensions and we do see many things that do not fit our three known plus time if you prefer. what we see or feel are in some manner dimension. i like the entity darkness when this comes up, as we do see darkness (not black or w/o light) and it appears very flat. w/o the known four.

    there is nothing in a dream that fits our dimensional concepts. its the mind or subconscious working, i suppose, but nothing is real but creative to what we are and a requirement for sleep. this could be a jump into the parallel existence but we have no means to understand this. death could be as a permanent dream or even life itself a dream from another dimension. we just don't know.
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  16. #15  
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    yet.(we still have a few years to go, I hope Ill last a while)

    We never had any proof for the existence (yes, I know the maths but this is just "thoeretical work" as some say) of higher dimensions. And now its right infront of us, we mapped it and think its some 'exotic matter'(I put this in quotes because I beleve this Universe to be patterned by the laws of physics). This is just another argument (but a great one) for higher dimensions to exist.
    I haven't come to fight my word, but to find the truth.
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    I can also think of dark mass as matter which travel along a fifth coordinate. For it to intersect with our world with gravity, i make the conclusion that it would need the spatial dimension (atleast BH radius) and an extension in time, not to mention that 5:th dimension. Everyone clear on this?
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  18. #17  
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    here we go again....
    I can also think of dark mass as matter which travel along a fifth coordinate.
    Well, if you mean that the dark matter is on a different position on the 5th dimension, yes.
    But it is mostprobaly impossible for dark matter to move on the 5th dimension(just in the normal 3d's) why?
    Very simple, this would allow (dark)matter to appear at 1 point in our "universe" and then dissapear, because of the movement in the 4th spatial dimension.
    --- If you don't under stand take the flatlanders example a ball falls though space,
    --- for a flatlander this would seem like if the ball would have simply dissapeard.

    For it to intersect with our world with gravity, i make the conclusion that it would need the spatial dimension (atleast BH radius) and an extension in time, not to mention that 5:th dimension
    5th dimension=spatial dimension
    There is no need for an extra time coordinate for matter on a different "~" coordinate(while ~=the 4th spatial dimension; so x,y,z,~)
    Eventhough I beleve there to be 3d time it is independent to a 4th spatial dimension.
    Still Im glad someone tryed to understand the logic of higher dimensions.
    ... I was spelling spatial with 'c'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miomaz
    here we go again....
    I can also think of dark mass as matter which travel along a fifth coordinate.
    Well, if you mean that the dark matter is on a different position on the 5th dimension, yes.
    But it is mostprobaly impossible for dark matter to move on the 5th dimension(just in the normal 3d's) why?
    Very simple, this would allow (dark)matter to appear at 1 point in our "universe" and then dissapear, because of the movement in the 4th spatial dimension.
    --- If you don't under stand take the flatlanders example a ball falls though space,
    --- for a flatlander this would seem like if the ball would have simply dissapeard.

    For it to intersect with our world with gravity, i make the conclusion that it would need the spatial dimension (atleast BH radius) and an extension in time, not to mention that 5:th dimension
    5th dimension=spatial dimension
    There is no need for an extra time coordinate for matter on a different "~" coordinate(while ~=the 4th spatial dimension; so x,y,z,~)
    Eventhough I beleve there to be 3d time it is independent to a 4th spatial dimension.
    Still Im glad someone tryed to understand the logic of higher dimensions.
    ... I was spelling spatial with 'c'.
    If it didn't move along the fifth dimension, it would not be along the fifth dimension. If it was somewhere else along the fifth dimension, and didn't move, it would never have popped into existence.
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  20. #19  
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    If it didn't move along the fifth dimension, it would not be along the fifth dimension. If it was somewhere else along the fifth dimension, and didn't move, it would never have popped into existence.
    If I may ask, why do you beleve this? It dosn't make any sense and I can't find a reason why you would think this way.
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  21. #20  
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    Because everything does, according to heisenberg, move.

    And if it was somewhere else along the fifth coordinate, then it would not effect us, since force decay with distance squared.
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