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Thread: Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

  1. #1 Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms? 
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    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

    Taking the text from another post "The rate of evolution in viruses are so much higher than in Multicellular organisms (MCO). A concept that dawned on me was that viruses could be the factories where new protein forming DNA genes are tested in prior to their inclusion in MCO. That was my thought many years ago and now I am looking for evidence for this. I was thinking this could be a way of speeding up the evolution rate.

    This was emphasised in the YT Evolution Ep1: Darwin's Dangerous Idea (5/11) - YouTube where the Aids virus is mutating and evolving faster than new drugs are invented to fight it."

    This has been in my mind for about 6 years now so I would like to to discuss whether it is a workable hypothesis.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Interesting hypothesis but for broader acceptance as a hypothesis I would couch the question a bit less emphatically as others have done such as........ Do Viruses have a role to play in the evolution of host biology? Re-arranged such as this, the question is still as interesting and warranting of further investigation but not as 'suggestive and perhaps provocative to the scientific community' that evolution of multicellullar organisms is ALL about virus integration in host genome sequences. Before even posting it, I would arm myself with more credible background sources than say a Youtube presentation such as:

    1. Endogenous viruses: insights into viral evolution and impact on host biology;
    2. Viruses and the Evcolution of Life

    Note that I haven't had the time to verify the voracity of these links but in couching an hypothesis such as this, it would be assumed that the positer had investigated these sources.

    .....anyway, very interesting perspective to consider in addition to a swathe of other factors and hypothesis that potentially influence rates of evolution. :-))


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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

    Taking the text from another post "The rate of evolution in viruses are so much higher than in Multicellular organisms (MCO). A concept that dawned on me was that viruses could be the factories where new protein forming DNA genes are tested in prior to their inclusion in MCO. That was my thought many years ago and now I am looking for evidence for this. I was thinking this could be a way of speeding up the evolution rate.

    This was emphasised in the YT Evolution Ep1: Darwin's Dangerous Idea (5/11) - YouTube where the Aids virus is mutating and evolving faster than new drugs are invented to fight it."

    This has been in my mind for about 6 years now so I would like to to discuss whether it is a workable hypothesis.
    First off, as has been discussed in other threads, you have a very vague idea. You need to be doing much more than simply think about something if you want it to have any substance about it. That means you have to do research.

    For one, a virus on it's own is basically an inert thing. It doesn't matter what DNA it has while outside a host. So in what way are you suggesting viruses test new DNA sequences and proteins? What do you mean by "test"?

    And yes, if you want to describe a complex process and someone asks for a citation, you still have to produce one, even here. Otherwise the thread will be about you waffling and us having to trawl the internet for references that refute whatever you dream up. This is very important Rob. That is how things are done, how ideas are hashed out. That is what people refer to when they say you expect us to do your work for you. I will ask you to do us the courtesy of at least trying to reference what you are trying to say.

    Thanks in advance.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Implicate Order View Post
    but in couching an hypothesis such as this, it would be assumed that the poster had investigated these sources.
    LOL. Literally.

    More background here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comd...l#retroviruses
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

    Taking the text from another post "The rate of evolution in viruses are so much higher than in Multicellular organisms (MCO). A concept that dawned on me was that viruses could be the factories where new protein forming DNA genes are tested in prior to their inclusion in MCO. That was my thought many years ago and now I am looking for evidence for this. I was thinking this could be a way of speeding up the evolution rate.

    This was emphasised in the YT Evolution Ep1: Darwin's Dangerous Idea (5/11) - YouTube where the Aids virus is mutating and evolving faster than new drugs are invented to fight it."

    This has been in my mind for about 6 years now so I would like to to discuss whether it is a workable hypothesis.
    First off, as has been discussed in other threads, you have a very vague idea. You need to be doing much more than simply think about something if you want it to have any substance about it. That means you have to do research.

    For one, a virus on it's own is basically an inert thing. It doesn't matter what DNA it has while outside a host. So in what way are you suggesting viruses test new DNA sequences and proteins? What do you mean by "test"?

    And yes, if you want to describe a complex process and someone asks for a citation, you still have to produce one, even here. Otherwise the thread will be about you waffling and us having to trawl the internet for references that refute whatever you dream up. This is very important Rob. That is how things are done, how ideas are hashed out. That is what people refer to when they say you expect us to do your work for you. I will ask you to do us the courtesy of at least trying to reference what you are trying to say.

    Thanks in advance.
    It feels a bit like when I started my "Life first started on Mercury" thread, wondering how and when anyone will join in. Two years later it became the biggest thread by far in the Biology section over at Physforums and it has 170,000 odd views. Someone reckoned "The Onion " did a parody about it, and NASA is planning a mission to Mercury to sample the water up there.
    Well that's how I feel. I feel this thread could make a difference in scientific understanding too. Will it become another reference as great as Darwin's "Origin of the Species"?

    It is going to be a study that will obviously have to go on for a few years, but the result will be significant.

    "Test" - this is a raw idea at the moment, and the topic is going to need so much revision for me, to get the terminology correct. Each virus particle after it assembles is a "test". Did it have a variation that will make it different from its parent virus? Did it take up any new genetic material from the host cell? So much to learn even before I can even ask the right questions.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 12th, 2013 at 04:42 PM.
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    Megalomaniac.
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    Then Rob, no offence, but I suggest you do a lot of research before continuing with this, because at the moment you have a very vague idea and very little knowledge about the actual subject or even the terminology used, even terminology you use yourself! I am afraid that is how science works.

    We are not going to spend page upon page trying to figure out what you are saying, you trying to figure out what we are saying, you trying to figure out what you are saying and us having to spend hours at a time (yes, really) trawling the internet for information pertinent to your ideas in an effort to educate you. We don't appreciate that and you should surely understand why you have been getting so much grief about it?

    Do some work first. Show us you are really serious about this, because at the moment you are not, even if you think you are. Fantasy daydreaming is fine and all, but don't expect to produce anything useful just from that. You have to put in the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Megalomaniac.

    There is no need to disturb this topic with an insult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

    I do not know.
    But if you are confident that you can answer this question and support the answer with the appropriate scientific sources, then feel free to provide your answer.
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    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Implicate Order View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Interesting hypothesis but for broader acceptance as a hypothesis I would couch the question a bit less emphatically as others have done such as........ Do Viruses have a role to play in the evolution of host biology? Re-arranged such as this, the question is still as interesting and warranting of further investigation but not as 'suggestive and perhaps provocative to the scientific community' that evolution of multicellullar organisms is ALL about virus integration in host genome sequences. Before even posting it, I would arm myself with more credible background sources than say a Youtube presentation such as:

    1. Endogenous viruses: insights into viral evolution and impact on host biology;
    2. Viruses and the Evcolution of Life

    Note that I haven't had the time to verify the voracity of these links but in couching an hypothesis such as this, it would be assumed that the positer had investigated these sources.

    .....anyway, very interesting perspective to consider in addition to a swathe of other factors and hypothesis that potentially influence rates of evolution. :-))
    I have a little bit of knowledge, but it always dawned on me as I think about the issues that it seemed viruses could be the step of how an organism picks up a whole new protein forming gene, or even how a species jump (change in species) could occur. I haven't got a clue as to where this study will end up. But is there any evidence of viruses playing a role in changing a host's offspring sufficiently to start off a new species?

    Darwinian Evolution is enough to account for varieties and subspecies but what about species, without having to go for the hybridization theory proposed the other day by Gene mcCarthy?

    I was pretty amazed by this next YT - maybe what I'm proposing is already known. I'll need to listen to that more than once.
    Human Evolution: Are We Descended From Viruses? Human Evolution: Are We Descended From Viruses? - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Megalomaniac.

    There is no need to disturb this topic with an insult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

    I do not know.
    But if you are confident that you can answer this question and support the answer with the appropriate scientific sources, then feel free to provide your answer.
    I'm not thinking it is just me that has do this, but it is a chance for the forum to work on it, just like it has started out (better than I thought it would, so let's keep it going), I think we are going to be surprised by what is known already, but if the links can be grouped and discussed here this will be a great start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Megalomaniac.

    There is no need to disturb this topic with an insult.
    Perhaps you didn't realize it wasn't the Onion parodying him, but me parodying his Life on Mercury thread with an Onion brief. http://www.theonion.com/articles/scientists-theorize-sun-could-support-firebased-li,34559/
    H
    ence, he's either lying or really believes he's that special for attention.

    He already likened this thread, that which he knows nothing about yet, to a possible candidate to be as influential as Darwins' Origin of Species.

    Well, is he lying or not about that one?




    Maybe there is more truth than insult in my one word post. Evidence would be how he spewed his Life on Mercury thread because a moderator turned a blind eye.
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    Just another thread of unsupported bullshit by Bob. Why is this tolerated?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Perhaps you didn't realize it wasn't the Onion parodying him, but me parodying his Life on Mercury thread with an Onion brief. http://www.theonion.com/articles/scientists-theorize-sun-could-support-firebased-li,34559/
    H
    ence, he's either lying or really believes he's that special for attention.

    He already likened this thread, that which he knows nothing about yet, to a possible candidate to be as influential as Darwins' Origin of Species.

    Well, is he lying or not about that one?

    Maybe there is more truth than insult in my one word post. Evidence would be how he spewed his Life on Mercury thread because a moderator turned a blind eye.

    I will postpone further comments on that after he has provided more evidence that might support the notion of the evolution of multicellular organisms being driven by viruses.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Implicate Order View Post
    but in couching an hypothesis such as this, it would be assumed that the poster had investigated these sources.
    LOL. Literally.

    More background here:
    Endogenous retrovirus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 4
    That Wikipedia article certainly emphasised the negative effects of the ERVs but if the hypothesis I'm proposing is to work there must not only be negative effects but positive benefits as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Just another thread of unsupported bullshit by Bob. Why is this tolerated?
    I asked him to post his ideas in his own threads, rather than in other people's threads.

    Rob:
    We have posted a whole bunch of references and stuff in other threads. You have to go through them properly and come back with something more substantial. You don't seem to understand the drudgery you have doled out with your own inability to research your claims. Don't expect us to start from scratch! Please show some real initiative for a change.

    You don't realise that WE ALL can come up with ideas like this and have. As an example, I once proposed that we might be able to kill all viruses if we just found the right resonance frequency of each species of virus capsid and bombarded it with that frequency of sound.

    The rub is that it doesn't mean anything unless you put in the time to do some proper research and learning about the subject matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob
    That Wikipedia article certainly emphasised the negative effects of the ERVs but if the hypothesis I'm proposing is to work there must not only be negative effects but positive benefits as well.
    Then why not see if you can find some? You have the internet at your disposal. Don't expect us to do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Just another thread of unsupported bullshit by Bob. Why is this tolerated?
    Kalster thought my hypotheses should be in the new hypotheses section of the forum, and then my comments weren't upsetting other people's thread. Suits me me just to work on the one thread. You don't have to read it, but feel free to contribute.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 12th, 2013 at 04:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Just another thread of unsupported bullshit by Bob. Why is this tolerated?
    I asked him to post his ideas in his own threads, rather than in other people's threads.

    Rob:
    We have posted a whole bunch of references and stuff in other threads. You have to go through them properly and come back with something more substantial. You don't seem to understand the drudgery you have doled out with your own inability to research your claims. Don't expect us to start from scratch! Please show some real initiative for a change.

    You don't realise that WE ALL can come up with ideas like this and have. As an example, I once proposed that we might be able to kill all viruses if we just found the right resonance frequency of each species of virus capsid and bombarded it with that frequency of sound.

    The rub is that is doesn't mean anything unless you put in the time to do some proper research and learning about the subject matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob
    That Wikipedia article certainly emphasised the negative effects of the ERVs but if the hypothesis I'm proposing is to work there must not only be negative effects but positive benefits as well.
    Then why not see if you can find some? You have the internet at your disposal. Don't expect us to do it.
    It is purely optional if anyone wants to join in but I do think it will be educational for most of us. If I had done all the research already it could have been started in the main science, yes?
    I want to think about viruses , genes and cells actually and not have to discuss these sorts of issues at the moment please. It is a hard topic. I'm putting the time and effort in.
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    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    @kalster I can understand why you want to confine Bobs stupid to his own threads that sane people can choose to ignore, but as this is a science forum I am at a loss as to why he is allowed to continue to post bullshit with no science content whatsoever in ANY of the sub forums. The guy has shown he is pig ignorant and incapable of learning. I would rather have 10 Neverflys than this ignorant nutjob
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That Wikipedia article certainly emphasised the negative effects of the ERVs but if the hypothesis I'm proposing is to work there must not only be negative effects but positive benefits as well.
    It has a long section (the bulk of the article) on the positive (or non harmful) aspects. Perhaps you need to read it again. Or get someone to turn it into a video for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That Wikipedia article certainly emphasised the negative effects of the ERVs but if the hypothesis I'm proposing is to work there must not only be negative effects but positive benefits as well.
    It has a long section (the bulk of the article) on the positive (or non harmful) aspects. Perhaps you need to read it again. Or get someone to turn it into a video for you.
    The article as a whole was very technical. How do you get someone to make a video on that topic? I have never heard of requesting a topic being covered this way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The article as a whole was very technical.
    If you can't even understand a dumbed-down Wikipedia article, then you are probably not going to be able to take this idea very far.

    How do you get someone to make a video on that topic? I have never heard of requesting a topic being covered this way.
    It was just a joke, referring to your reliance on yootoob videos as a source of "knowledge".
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    It might have been a joke but it was an interesting concept as well.

    I'm looking at Eddie Holmes - Adaptation and Evolution: The Life of an RNA Viruses

    YT is like attending a lecture. It is a good start into a topic. Who knows what might come up.
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    Again, I know posting in "New Hypotheses" and "Pseudoscience" you get a little more leeway but the level of bullshit Bob is peddling shames even these categories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Again, I know posting in "New Hypotheses" and "Pseudoscience" you get a little more leeway but the level of bullshit Bob is peddling shames even these categories.
    I'm only asking the question at this stage. "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It is purely optional if anyone wants to join in but I do think it will be educational for most of us. If I had done all the research already it could have been started in the main science, yes?.
    Nope. This is not mainstream science. In fact, I am being generous putting it in New hypothesis as you have not done anything more than posting random thoughts that have lingered in you for some years. You will be required to provide some support for your ideas, otherwise it will be moved lower down.


    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon
    @kalster I can understand why you want to confine Bobs stupid to his own threads that sane people can choose to ignore, but as this is a science forum I am at a loss as to why he is allowed to continue to post bullshit with no science content whatsoever in ANY of the sub forums. The guy has shown he is pig ignorant and incapable of learning. I would rather have 10 Neverflys than this ignorant nutjob
    Yes, he has not been behaving scientifically, but he has not been very aggressive. This is an effort to curb his rampant sowing of wild ideas all over the forum. If he continues in the same vein here as he has been, his threads will be moved further down.

    The reasons Rob is here and Neverfly aren't are not related and are not comparable.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    @ Bob: Asking questions is fine but feeding the answers through your internal nonsense generator to produce pseudoscientific bullshit is not. In a number of threads now your "just asking questions" has been a vehicle to propose your frankly stupid pseudoscientific nonsense. Time and again you have shown you understand nothing of science or the scientific method and all you do is surf yootube to find something that supports your fantasy world. Please stop it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    it will be moved lower down.
    Can I propose a sub-forum called "Shite" below even the trash can, it can be home for the more virulent strains of stupid and bullshit. (It goes without saying most of Bobs contributions would belong there).
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    it will be moved lower down.
    Can I propose a sub-forum called "Shite" below even the trash can, it can be home for the more virulent strains of stupid and bullshit. (It goes without saying most of Bobs contributions would belong there).
    All the shite goes into trash, even the most well intentioned bits eventually. The level below that is oblivion. At least in the trash non-members won't be able to see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Implicate Order View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Interesting hypothesis but for broader acceptance as a hypothesis I would couch the question a bit less emphatically as others have done such as........ Do Viruses have a role to play in the evolution of host biology? Re-arranged such as this, the question is still as interesting and warranting of further investigation but not as 'suggestive and perhaps provocative to the scientific community' that evolution of multicellullar organisms is ALL about virus integration in host genome sequences. Before even posting it, I would arm myself with more credible background sources than say a Youtube presentation such as:

    1. Endogenous viruses: insights into viral evolution and impact on host biology;
    2. Viruses and the Evcolution of Life

    Note that I haven't had the time to verify the voracity of these links but in couching an hypothesis such as this, it would be assumed that the positer had investigated these sources.

    .....anyway, very interesting perspective to consider in addition to a swathe of other factors and hypothesis that potentially influence rates of evolution. :-))
    I have commenced reading the 2nd linked article. and immediately found an enticing statement
    As discussed below, evolutionary biology has generally failed to consider the contribution that viruses have made to the evolution of life.
    Thanking you for the links.
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Thanks I'll see if I can open it.
    In the YT i just finished watching the graphics make it really easy to understand. You just about have to accept the common ancestor concept once you see how these Endogenous Retroviruses (ERVs) are passed along branches of the Tree of Life.Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    Thanks I'll see if I can open it.
    In the YT i just finished watching the graphics make it really easy to understand. You just about have to accept the common ancestor concept once you see how these Endogenous Retroviruses (ERVs) are passed along branches of the Tree of Life.Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes - YouTube
    Notice the guy said there are no instances of ERVs shared between, say, rats and humans, but not with other primates. The same follows for pigs or any distantly related animals. If you want this to be true, then you would have to go and find instances of this happening first and then fo your idea to have any merit, for it to occur with large amounts of species specific DNA being swapped between multi-cellular animals. As we have been showing you, this just doesn't happen. Unless you go out and do the actual research showing it does happen, your idea should be scaled down substantially to the limited instances where it has occurred to a much lesser extent.

    That should pretty much kill this thread.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    Thanks I'll see if I can open it.
    In the YT i just finished watching the graphics make it really easy to understand. You just about have to accept the common ancestor concept once you see how these Endogenous Retroviruses (ERVs) are passed along branches of the Tree of Life.Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes - YouTube
    Notice the guy said there are no instances of ERVs shared between, say, rats and humans, but not with other primates. The same follows for pigs or any distantly related animals. If you want this to be true, then you would have to go and find instances of this happening first and then fo your idea to have any merit, for it to occur with large amounts of species specific DNA being swapped between multi-cellular animals. As we have been showing you, this just doesn't happen. Unless you go out and do the actual research showing it does happen, your idea should be scaled down substantially to the limited instances where it has occurred to a much lesser extent.

    That should pretty much kill this thread.
    I have listened to the lecture in the Luis P. Villarreal – “Can viruses make us human?” | Center for Virus Research link and that was a lecture the likes of I have never contemplated before (but they are talking about humans being a type of symbiosis (cooperation) between viruses and and our ancestral types). It would not be a very popular idea and I'd have to think it through a lot more to see if I can accept that idea.

    Did anyone else struggle through that lecture, if you did what did you think?

    Notice the guy said there are no instances of ERVs shared between, say, rats and humans, but not with other primates. The same follows for pigs or any distantly related animals. If you want this to be true,.....
    (That was a reference to Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes - YouTube

    )
    This thread (Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?) has nothing to do with pigs in particular, this evolutionary feature I was hypothesising was possibly a result of some viruses that cross over from other species (particularly of the Retrovirus type but not limited to Retroviruses).
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 12th, 2013 at 08:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Unless you go out and do the actual research showing it does happen, your idea should be scaled down substantially to the limited instances where it has occurred to a much lesser extent.
    Viruses effect the evolution of bacteria.

    Done.

    Horizontal gene transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Beer w/Straw; December 12th, 2013 at 09:26 PM. Reason: link
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    Thanks I'll see if I can open it.
    In the YT i just finished watching the graphics make it really easy to understand. You just about have to accept the common ancestor concept once you see how these Endogenous Retroviruses (ERVs) are passed along branches of the Tree of Life.Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes - YouTube
    Notice the guy said there are no instances of ERVs shared between, say, rats and humans, but not with other primates. The same follows for pigs or any distantly related animals. If you want this to be true, then you would have to go and find instances of this happening first and then fo your idea to have any merit, for it to occur with large amounts of species specific DNA being swapped between multi-cellular animals. As we have been showing you, this just doesn't happen. Unless you go out and do the actual research showing it does happen, your idea should be scaled down substantially to the limited instances where it has occurred to a much lesser extent.

    That should pretty much kill this thread.
    I have listened to the lecture in the Luis P. Villarreal – “Can viruses make us human?” | Center for Virus Research link and that was a lecture the likes of I have never contemplated before (but they are talking about humans being a type of symbiosis (cooperation) between viruses and and our ancestral types). It would not be a very popular idea and I'd have to think it through a lot more to see if I can accept that idea.

    Did anyone else struggle through that lecture, if you did what did you think?

    Notice the guy said there are no instances of ERVs shared between, say, rats and humans, but not with other primates. The same follows for pigs or any distantly related animals. If you want this to be true,.....
    (That was a reference to Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes Facts Of Evolution: Retroviruses And Pseudogenes - YouTube

    )
    This thread (Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?) has nothing to do with pigs in particular, this evolutionary feature I was hypothesising was possibly a result of some viruses that cross over from other species (particularly of the Retrovirus type but not limited to Retroviruses).
    WTF! This again?

    We provided you with numerous studies, links, articles in that thread. You did not read a single one of them, if this thread is anything to go by.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It feels a bit like when I started my "Life first started on Mercury" thread, wondering how and when anyone will join in. Two years later it became the biggest thread by far in the Biology section over at Physforums and it has 170,000 odd views. Someone reckoned "The Onion " did a parody about it, and NASA is planning a mission to Mercury to sample the water up there.
    Well that's how I feel. I feel this thread could make a difference in scientific understanding too. Will it become another reference as great as Darwin's "Origin of the Species"?

    It is going to be a study that will obviously have to go on for a few years, but the result will be significant.

    "Test" - this is a raw idea at the moment, and the topic is going to need so much revision for me, to get the terminology correct. Each virus particle after it assembles is a "test". Did it have a variation that will make it different from its parent virus? Did it take up any new genetic material from the host cell? So much to learn even before I can even ask the right questions.
    If you even think about pulling the same stunt here, then forget it. This site will lose members in droves if you do, just like people left the other site in disgust when you did it there. You claim it was the biggest thread there, you fail to tell everyone here that the majority of the thread was you ranting on and on and posting youtube links and treating it like your personal blog and the rest was everyone else abusing you. Perhaps this gets you off somehow, because you keep trying to repeat the same thing everywhere you go, claiming that the result will be significant, as though you are again trying to prove the existence of your own deity, as you have done in every single thread like this that you have started.

    You never once, not once, substantiated your claims, and instead, showed your lazy ass self and expected others to do the work for you.

    You cannot do a study and know what the result will be, you certainly cannot know that it will be significant. What you are saying here is that you plan to bore us to death with your inane claims and beliefs, that you try to pass off as "science", without any scientific basis whatsoever. You are telling us that the results are pre-determined. So once again, as we have been unfortunate enough to witness countless of times, no matter what proof people with a clue provide to refute your inane beliefs, you will disregard it, because it does not fit into the "significant" end you have already predicted.

    You don't even know the terminology, but you already know the end result will be significant? The arrogance you show is obscene. You claim you wish to learn, but you do not learn, you refuse to. Even when we provided you with proof that you are wrong, you were even banned for refusing to accept the fact that you have to provide proof to back up your claims, you come back and repeat the exact same behaviour again. You don't learn, you don't even bother reading the numerous scientific journals you were provided with, to explain how and why your claims are incorrect. Had you been willing to learn, we would not be here, seeing you repeat the exact same behaviour as last time.

    Youtube videos don't cut it. Do your research, provide citations to research that supports your claims. Don't expect others to do the work for you.
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    Just to refresh as to the amount of viral DNA in our genome. Is this just total junk and has the Human body not been able to use any of the genes transferred across from viruses? Why do the cells persist in copying this junk DNA every time a cell replicates?
    Your Genes: More Virus than Human Your Genes: More Virus than Human - YouTube

    By the same commentator The Virus as a Planetary Force http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAkVEX4Gqrk
    (At least there he has given me some names to checkout.)


    One other YouTube on Viral evolution pointed out that because the viruses are general RNA viruses and RNA transcription mechanism are less foolproof there are natural a lot more mutations occurring in viruses that in our DNA based cells. So the rate of evolution in a virus genome is so much faster.
    This one is very educational Virus Evolution http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I_y_edjM9s

    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 12th, 2013 at 10:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Implicate Order View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Interesting hypothesis but for broader acceptance as a hypothesis I would couch the question a bit less emphatically as others have done such as........ Do Viruses have a role to play in the evolution of host biology? Re-arranged such as this, the question is still as interesting and warranting of further investigation but not as 'suggestive and perhaps provocative to the scientific community' that evolution of multicellullar organisms is ALL about virus integration in host genome sequences. Before even posting it, I would arm myself with more credible background sources than say a Youtube presentation such as:

    1. Endogenous viruses: insights into viral evolution and impact on host biology;
    2. Viruses and the Evcolution of Life

    Note that I haven't had the time to verify the voracity of these links but in couching an hypothesis such as this, it would be assumed that the positer had investigated these sources.

    .....anyway, very interesting perspective to consider in addition to a swathe of other factors and hypothesis that potentially influence rates of evolution. :-))
    1. Endogenous viruses: insights into viral evolution and impact on host biology; finally found a site where i could read the article http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/67/98/42/PDF/Feschotte_2012_endegenousvirusesNRG.pdf

    L
    ink 2 http://cvr.bio.uci.edu/files/2011/10/Book-10-28.pdf
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    Rob, please stop relying on youtube videos and provide actual studies.

    *Edit*

    Nevermind..
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    Bob, post one more YouTube video as evidence and I ban you for a week. Kalster has been patient with you. Now it's payback time. You owe the forum! Start behaving like someone of intelligence who listens to others and start now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Bob, post one more YouTube video as evidence and I ban you for a week. Kalster has been patient with you. Now it's payback time. You owe the forum! Start behaving like someone of intelligence who listens to others and start now.
    Well that was lucky then for I had run out of YTs that were related to the topic. Now to read those two papers provided by Implicate Order.

    Tranquille - Were these not good enough?
    1. Endogenous viruses: insights into viral evolution and impact on host biology; finally found a site where i could read the article http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/67/98/42/PDF/Feschotte_2012_endegenousvirusesNRG.pdf

    L
    ink 2 http://cvr.bio.uci.edu/files/2011/10/Book-10-28.pdf
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 13th, 2013 at 02:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Implicate Order View Post
    but in couching an hypothesis such as this, it would be assumed that the poster had investigated these sources.
    LOL. Literally.

    More background here:
    Endogenous retrovirus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 4
    Thank you all for your support today.
    I'm just hanging in there. It is a fascinating topic and not easy for me, but I have had a bit of help from Implicate Order and you and Cogito's comment to Beer w/Straw helped heaps, as I was losing confidence to continue.

    Kalster and John Galt too for offering advice and assistance. It is all much appreciated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It is a fascinating topic and not easy for me, but I have had a bit of help from Implicate Order and you and Cogito's comment to Beer w/Straw helped heaps, as I was losing confidence to continue.
    I am curious what your goal is here.

    This is obviously an area of research where a lot of interesting and cutting edge work is being done by teams of people with extensive expertise in DNA analysis, genetics, evolutionary theory, biology, statistics, computer programming, etc.

    Are you just hoping to learn more about it? Or do you really think that, as someone who appears to know almost nothing of the basic science involved, you will be able to contribute useful ideas? By posting on an obscure science forum? That would be rather like me offering to coach the UK national football team (or should that be the English national team) by yelling at random strangers on the street.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Just as an FYI Rob. Do not expect the majority of members to fall for your bait and switch tactics for getting others to answer the questions posed to you.

    You do not get to say "I'm studying it, what do you think ..." and have others do the work for you.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    That would be rather like me offering to coach the UK national football team (or should that be the English national team) by yelling at random strangers on the street.
    It turns out that this approach may be as, or more effective, than our current coaching efforts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    That would be rather like me offering to coach the UK national football team (or should that be the English national team) by yelling at random strangers on the street.
    It turns out that this approach may be as, or more effective, than our current coaching efforts.
    Oh dear. Are they not doing well in the world series (or whatever it is called).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It is a fascinating topic and not easy for me, but I have had a bit of help from Implicate Order and you and Cogito's comment to Beer w/Straw helped heaps, as I was losing confidence to continue.
    I am curious what your goal is here.

    This is obviously an area of research where a lot of interesting and cutting edge work is being done by teams of people with extensive expertise in DNA analysis, genetics, evolutionary theory, biology, statistics, computer programming, etc.

    Are you just hoping to learn more about it? Or do you really think that, as someone who appears to know almost nothing of the basic science involved, you will be able to contribute useful ideas? By posting on an obscure science forum? That would be rather like me offering to coach the UK national football team (or should that be the English national team) by yelling at random strangers on the street.
    It is all part of my personal quest to know how life originates and develops.
    I had no idea, so much was already known, so really it is a matter of catching up, and seeing whether this "Virolution" written about by Luis P. Villarreal gives the same result as the hypothesis.
    It might well be, but now I'm wading through the text book. The link provided doesn't give me a title or author and I Googled and got this title, maybe it isn't correct. "Viruses and the Evolution of Life" by Luis P. Villarreal"

    I just can't understand why there was so much opposition if it was at all well known.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 13th, 2013 at 04:37 AM. Reason: correction
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Well that was lucky then for I had run out of YTs that were related to the topic. Now to read those two papers provided by Implicate Order.

    Tranquille - Were these not good enough?
    1. Endogenous viruses: insights into viral evolution and impact on host biology; finally found a site where i could read the article http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/67/98/42/PDF/Feschotte_2012_endegenousvirusesNRG.pdf

    L
    ink 2 http://cvr.bio.uci.edu/files/2011/10/Book-10-28.pdf
    Things that are already well known and were provided for you, the content of which had already been discussed in the previous thread.

    Can you tell me what you learned from them both?

    Can you please also explain what you meant by "driving evolution"?

    I had no idea, so much was already known, so really it is a matter of catching up, and seeing whether this "Virolution" written about by Luis P. Villarreal gives the same result as the hypothesis.
    He did not write that book.

    Do you understand the role viruses played in our evolution? The book "Virolution" looks at that role and it applies it to natural selection. We have now evolved to have natural defenses or the ability to fight off many viruses as a result, for example. The article you linked also shows that viruses have not affected our evolution, or more to the point, it slowed down significantly in the last 150,000 years. As Dr Frank Ryan explains, much of the viral DNA we have is what is known as junk DNA, it doesn't really do much and it's stuff that mammals have picked up probably since the time prior to our ancient ancestors leaving the primordial ooze. If a virus in the future comes along and somehow manages to, well, give one a different function, then it would spread throughout the human species or ape species through natural selection. Maybe. Or maybe because our ancestors were so exposed to viral and bacterial infections, we could simply just fight it off.

    To understand this, you need to have the basics of human evolution, which perhaps you may be lacking, which will make a lot of these concepts difficult for you to grasp or understand that they dont really support your beliefs as you seem to see it.
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    "Viruses and the Evolution of Life" by Luis P. Villarreal" = the book, but he also uses the term "virolution". There is apparently another book with the same name "Virolution" by Frank Ryan. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7235776-virolution
    Luis Villarreal on Virolution | Center for Virus Research
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    I do value the contributions of others on this forum since I am particularly passionate about this topic. I will take your advice as I do value your feedback but I realize that I have been a bit stubborn in actually doing enough about it, for it is hard when the criticism hurts. I will genuinely take the time to read the information that has been provided to me by you all. The more I read about this topic the better, it is definitely going to help me understand it even more and I know I am going to thank you all the more.

    I am going to take some time off the topic to actually read this stuff.


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    Rob:

    Due to your MO thus far, I am going to move this thread to Pseudo for now. Depending on how you head the advice given to you a hundred times over thus far, we can decide where it goes after that.

    If you are really passionate, I still hope that you might prove that passion by starting to give this a proper go, instead of sitting back and idly thinking stuff up for us to check on for you.

    Good luck.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I do value the contributions of others on this forum since I am particularly passionate about this topic. I will take your advice as I do value your feedback but I realize that I have been a bit stubborn in actually doing enough about it, for it is hard when the criticism hurts. I will genuinely take the time to read the information that has been provided to me by you all. The more I read about this topic the better, it is definitely going to help me understand it even more and I know I am going to thank you all the more.

    I am going to take some time off the topic to actually read this stuff.


    The book Virolution is actually a really good book on the subject Rob. I assumed you meant the book, and not a journal article.

    The book is very good though and breaks it down and has the numbers and the studies in the book, so you can refer to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Are viruses part of the enviroment of multicellular organisms?

    Yes.

    So the answer is yes.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    new protein forming DNA genes are tested in prior to their inclusion in MCO.

    Oh goodie. There are genes not made out of DNA? I didn't know.

    So you mean to say that "novel proteins are formed from genes encoded in DNA of multicellular organisms.

    Maybe try phrasing your hypothesis correctly. Usually you can then already see whether something is completely bullshit or not.

    Viruses are never the factories. They don't have a factory. They are barebone genetic material.

    Virues introduce novel genetic information into multicellular orgasms by inserting their genetic material into random places. This leads to all kinds of mutations.

    Increase in mutation rate offers evolution more to work with.

    Do you have a novel insight???

    No.

    Old text book stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Are viruses part of the enviroment of multicellular organisms?

    Yes.

    So the answer is yes.
    No way. Where did you just come from? Are you back? If so, WELCOME!


    Yep, there is no dispute about viruses having a role, but Rob has something much bigger in mind and for that there isn't evidence.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    and Cogito's comment to Beer w/Straw helped heaps
    That's ironic.

    Assuming you were referring to the comment I got from a one word post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Are viruses part of the enviroment of multicellular organisms?

    Yes.

    So the answer is yes.
    No way. Where did you just come from? Are you back? If so, WELCOME!


    Yep, there is no dispute about viruses having a role, but Rob has something much bigger in mind and for that there isn't evidence.
    Do you accept there is evidence of "Virolution"?
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    Um...

    If that's an entire text book that we are not reading and something none of us are majoring in, I think you have to be more specific.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    new protein forming DNA genes are tested in prior to their inclusion in MCO.

    Oh goodie. There are genes not made out of DNA? I didn't know.

    So you mean to say that "novel proteins are formed from genes encoded in DNA of multicellular organisms.

    Maybe try phrasing your hypothesis correctly. Usually you can then already see whether something is completely bullshit or not.

    Viruses are never the factories. They don't have a factory. They are barebone genetic material.

    Virues introduce novel genetic information into multicellular orgasms by inserting their genetic material into random places. This leads to all kinds of mutations.

    Increase in mutation rate offers evolution more to work with.

    Do you have a novel insight???

    No.

    Old text book stuff.
    "new protein forming DNA genes" What I was trying to express was that the RNA genetic material is saved in the host as DNA. The Retroviruses themselves have RNA as their genetic material, so can I think of the terms of an "RNA gene" in contrast to "DNA gene"? The term RNA gene is used in a different context by the scientists - sorry, I did say at the start it will take a while to get the terminology right.



    From Wikipedia on Retrovirus.
    Retroviridae is a family of enveloped viruses that replicate in a host cell through the process of reverse transcription. A retrovirus is a single-strandedRNA virus that stores its nucleic acid in the form of an mRNA genome (including the 5' cap and 3' PolyA tail) and targets a host cell as an obligate parasite. Once inside the host cell cytoplasm the virus uses its own reverse transcriptase enzyme to produce DNA from its RNA genome, the reverse of the usual pattern, thus retro (backwards). This new DNA is then incorporatedinto the host cell genome by an integrase enzyme, at which point the retroviral DNA is referred to as a provirus. The host cell then treats the viral DNA as part of its own genome, translating and transcribing the viral genes along with the cell's own genes, producing the proteins required to assemble new copies of the virus. It is difficult to detect the virus until it has infected the host.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Um...

    If that's an entire text book that we are not reading and something none of us are majoring in, I think you have to be more specific.
    I was trying to get you a shorter definition of the term "virolution" and I found that Frank Ryan the author had posted on Sciforums in 2009. Do you remember that?
    Viruses Are The Ultimate Symbionts "Viruses Are The Ultimate Symbionts".

    I'll go back and see if there is a concise definition of "virolution" and edit later if I do.

    In the book review of "Virolution"
    http://cfcul.fc.ul.pt/pdfs e powerpoints/Virolution.pdf
    Monod believed that mutation was the main source of genetic change. Although he does not consider this argument to be incorrect—but simply one side of the story—Frank Ryan argues that natural selection alone could not have given rise to the evolution of life and its subsequent diversity.
    Therefore, the core message of Virolution is to prove, from an entirely scientific standpoint, that mutation is not the exclusive source of genetic variation

    I notice this seems to be a contradiction for the "genetic variation" in the viruses was ultimately a form of mutation, but maybe the meaning then is "
    that mutation is not the exclusive source of genetic variation" [occurring only in the MCO]. (This then brings back the thought of "test", for any variant has to be tested for functionality and ultimately proven to be an advantage. So it then becomes very similar to Darwinian Evolution when fully explained.)
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 13th, 2013 at 01:35 PM. Reason: defining statement?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I do value the contributions of others on this forum since I am particularly passionate about this topic. I will take your advice as I do value your feedback but I realize that I have been a bit stubborn in actually doing enough about it, for it is hard when the criticism hurts. I will genuinely take the time to read the information that has been provided to me by you all. The more I read about this topic the better, it is definitely going to help me understand it even more and I know I am going to thank you all the more.

    I am going to take some time off the topic to actually read this stuff.


    The book Virolution is actually a really good book on the subject Rob. I assumed you meant the book, and not a journal article.

    The book is very good though and breaks it down and has the numbers and the studies in the book, so you can refer to it.
    Have you read the book yourself, and would you recommend it? If so I will get it too, only trouble is it takes a month to get it here. Thanks
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 13th, 2013 at 01:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Have you read the book yourself, and would you recommend it? If so I will get it too, only trouble is it takes a month to get it here. Thanks
    Yes I have read it and it provides an interesting read. But it doesn't support your 'vision'. When he talks symbiosis, he doesn't mean it like you did in the other thread. He doesn't argue that we caught viruses or bugs from pigs, for example, and that made us human.

    Also, "virolution" is just a title and a quirky. It's not really a real word as such. So you searching for a definition won't really get you anywhere and asking people if they believe in "virolution" is like asking someone if they believe in any made up word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Have you read the book yourself, and would you recommend it? If so I will get it too, only trouble is it takes a month to get it here. Thanks
    Yes I have read it and it provides an interesting read. But it doesn't support your 'vision'. When he talks symbiosis, he doesn't mean it like you did in the other thread. He doesn't argue that we caught viruses or bugs from pigs, for example, and that made us human.

    Also, "virolution" is just a title and a quirky. It's not really a real word as such. So you searching for a definition won't really get you anywhere and asking people if they believe in "virolution" is like asking someone if they believe in any made up word.
    I found a talk by LUIS P. VILLARREAL (Professor, Molecular Biology and Biochemistry
    School of Biological Sciences, Director, Center for Virus Research, Center for Virus Research PH.D., University of California, San Diego B.S., California State University at Los Angeles, 1971, Biochemistry)
    http://www.faculty.uci.edu/profile.cfm?faculty_id=2705
    Working at the University of California, Irvine.

    In the interview he defines virolution. The quote defines virolution in his words, "Virolution is a process of evolution that is mediated by the addition of virus information to the host.
    Historically when such a process has been seen it has been thought of as unimportant unrelated to the adaptation and survival of the host, but viruses have a lot of selection because there exists this enormous virosphere that wasn't appreciated historically and certainly not during the genesis of the modern synthesis of the Darwinian thinking.....".

    Whether the word "virolution" will persist in the modern scientific language I do not know, but that is its meaning at the moment.

    So when I ask "whether you believe in virolution?" By this it is meant, do you think the process of evolution that is mediated by the addition of virus information to the host is important or still unimportant?
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    No, that is not its meaning, that is one particular persons interpretation of it. It still remains a term that has not at any point been defined in a per-reviewed publication. Therefore it has absolutely no set definition, and no real use in this conversation.

    Now please move along and start answering the specific requests for support of your biology assertions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    No, that is not its meaning, that is one particular persons interpretation of it. It still remains a term that has not at any point been defined in a per-reviewed publication. Therefore it has absolutely no set definition, and no real use in this conversation.
    ....
    That is surprising then isn't it that this professor and his colleagues are going around using this word and writing books about it. Why isn't there a real challenge to it?
    What I'm saying is I copied his words fairly accurately so I am surprised you say that is not the meaning. Professor Luis Villarreal might be way out on a limb, I was only introduced to the word yesterday.

    In this link UC Irvine - Faculty Profile System there are 20 or so publications attributed to him, which obviously I haven't read, and are you saying he never used that "virolution" word in any of them?

    There seems to be plenty of links that have the word in them....
    I will send an email to prof Villarreal with your argument and see if he replies.

    Is this a peer reviewed Journal? http://jrs.sagepub.com/content/102/8/324.short

    "An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis"
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 13th, 2013 at 11:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That is surprising then isn't it that this professor and his colleagues are going around using this word and writing books about it. Why isn't there a real challenge to it?
    What I'm saying is I copied his words fairly accurately so I am surprised you say that is not the meaning. Professor Luis Villarreal might be way out on a limb, I was only introduced to the word yesterday.

    In this link UC Irvine - Faculty Profile System there are 20 or so publications attributed to him, which obviously I haven't read, and are you saying he never used that "virolution" word in any of them?

    There seems to be plenty of links that have the word in them....
    I will send an email to prof Villarreal with your argument and see if he replies.

    Is this a peer reviewed Journal? An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis

    "An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis"
    You and your emails. Didn't you email that guy who said we came from pigs and chimps as well? Please make sure you don't reference this site when you pull these stunts. It's kind of embarrassing.

    Is it in a dictionary? Scientific dictionary?

    No, it is not.

    It's made up to convey an idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That is surprising then isn't it that this professor and his colleagues are going around using this word and writing books about it. Why isn't there a real challenge to it?
    What I'm saying is I copied his words fairly accurately so I am surprised you say that is not the meaning. Professor Luis Villarreal might be way out on a limb, I was only introduced to the word yesterday.

    In this link UC Irvine - Faculty Profile System there are 20 or so publications attributed to him, which obviously I haven't read, and are you saying he never used that "virolution" word in any of them?

    There seems to be plenty of links that have the word in them....
    I will send an email to prof Villarreal with your argument and see if he replies.

    Is this a peer reviewed Journal? An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis

    "An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis"
    You and your emails. Didn't you email that guy who said we came from pigs and chimps as well? Please make sure you don't reference this site when you pull these stunts. It's kind of embarrassing.

    Is it in a dictionary? Scientific dictionary?

    No, it is not.

    It's made up to convey an idea.
    Do you like the idea?
    All words have a start-date, but I'm surprised it isn't more widely used.
    The word virolution is not used here either but it covers some of Prof Luis Villarreal's ideas. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ses-alive-2004

    Yes Gene McCarthy did email me back, but he only linked me back to parts already on his website.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 14th, 2013 at 02:44 AM.
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    You're betting so much on the book "virolution" that you haven't read, while I gave you a term in usage "horizontal gene transfer" in that wiki link on how viruses effect evolution of bacteria and more. I thought it was exactly the notion you were looking for, yet you appear to ignore it.

    Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You're betting so much on the book "virolution" that you haven't read, while I gave you a term in usage "horizontal gene transfer" in that wiki link on how viruses effect evolution of bacteria and more. I thought it was exactly the notion you were looking for, yet you appear to ignore it.

    Why?
    The concepts are different. I have yet to hear "horizontal gene transfer" being discussed at this stage. It happens in bacteria but does it happen in MCOs? It is early days yet, I might come back to it. Too tired to discuss now though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That is surprising then isn't it that this professor and his colleagues are going around using this word and writing books about it. Why isn't there a real challenge to it?
    What I'm saying is I copied his words fairly accurately so I am surprised you say that is not the meaning. Professor Luis Villarreal might be way out on a limb, I was only introduced to the word yesterday.

    In this link UC Irvine - Faculty Profile System there are 20 or so publications attributed to him, which obviously I haven't read, and are you saying he never used that "virolution" word in any of them?

    There seems to be plenty of links that have the word in them....
    I will send an email to prof Villarreal with your argument and see if he replies.

    Is this a peer reviewed Journal? An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis

    "An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis"
    You and your emails. Didn't you email that guy who said we came from pigs and chimps as well? Please make sure you don't reference this site when you pull these stunts. It's kind of embarrassing.

    Is it in a dictionary? Scientific dictionary?

    No, it is not.

    It's made up to convey an idea.
    Do you like the idea?
    All words have a start-date, but I'm surprised it isn't more widely used.
    The word virolution is not used here either but it covers some of Prof Luis Villarreal's ideas. Are Viruses Alive?: Scientific American

    Yes Gene McCarthy did email me back, but he only linked me back to parts already on his website.
    Get over the damn word.

    Start actually backing the assertions you have made regarding the biology problems that have been pointed out about your idea.

    NO the word is NOT an actual biology term, its has no scientific definition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You're betting so much on the book "virolution" that you haven't read, while I gave you a term in usage "horizontal gene transfer" in that wiki link on how viruses effect evolution of bacteria and more. I thought it was exactly the notion you were looking for, yet you appear to ignore it.

    Why?
    The concepts are different. I have yet to hear "horizontal gene transfer" being discussed at this stage. It happens in bacteria but does it happen in MCOs? It is early days yet, I might come back to it. Too tired to discuss now though.
    How are the concepts different? How does a virus effect DNA if not through HGT in your concept?

    Multicellular organisms are still composed of cells that viruses infect. If you can't address those questions, the thread seems to be nothing but a flight of fancy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you like the idea?
    What idea?

    That our ancestors caught a virus from an animal and it made us human? No.
    All words have a start-date, but I'm surprised it isn't more widely used.
    I am surprised twaddle isn't more widely used and it would fit any discussion with you perfectly.

    The word virolution is not used here either but it covers some of Prof Luis Villarreal's ideas. Are Viruses Alive?: Scientific American
    Get over the stupid word and start backing up your claims.
    Yes Gene McCarthy did email me back, but he only linked me back to parts already on his website.
    Yay the loon emailed you back.

    Lucky you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you like the idea?
    What idea?

    That our ancestors caught a virus from an animal and it made us human? No.
    All words have a start-date, but I'm surprised it isn't more widely used.
    I am surprised twaddle isn't more widely used and it would fit any discussion with you perfectly.

    The word virolution is not used here either but it covers some of Prof Luis Villarreal's ideas. Are Viruses Alive?: Scientific American
    Get over the stupid word and start backing up your claims.
    Yes Gene McCarthy did email me back, but he only linked me back to parts already on his website.
    Yay the loon emailed you back.

    Lucky you.
    This virolution concept isn't dependent on "a virus" but something like thousands of viruses. It certainly isn't just a single virus, definitely not "a virus" as you said.
    It would be premature to give examples of this without the background knowledge so as i've explained to the moderators I'm not putting up examples till i feel a bit more confident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That is surprising then isn't it that this professor and his colleagues are going around using this word and writing books about it. Why isn't there a real challenge to it?
    What I'm saying is I copied his words fairly accurately so I am surprised you say that is not the meaning. Professor Luis Villarreal might be way out on a limb, I was only introduced to the word yesterday.

    In this link UC Irvine - Faculty Profile System there are 20 or so publications attributed to him, which obviously I haven't read, and are you saying he never used that "virolution" word in any of them?

    There seems to be plenty of links that have the word in them....
    I will send an email to prof Villarreal with your argument and see if he replies.

    Is this a peer reviewed Journal? An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis

    "An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis"
    You and your emails. Didn't you email that guy who said we came from pigs and chimps as well? Please make sure you don't reference this site when you pull these stunts. It's kind of embarrassing.

    Is it in a dictionary? Scientific dictionary?

    No, it is not.

    It's made up to convey an idea.
    Do you like the idea?
    All words have a start-date, but I'm surprised it isn't more widely used.
    The word virolution is not used here either but it covers some of Prof Luis Villarreal's ideas. Are Viruses Alive?: Scientific American

    Yes Gene McCarthy did email me back, but he only linked me back to parts already on his website.
    Get over the damn word.

    Start actually backing the assertions you have made regarding the biology problems that have been pointed out about your idea.

    NO the word is NOT an actual biology term, its has no scientific definition.
    Paleoichneum you gave me 3 sentences. Two were about "the word", and the third one didn't make sense, for when I read the OP it isn't about making "assertions" and there has been no one pointing out biological problems in this thread as yet, well not that i recall.
    I go back up to the OP and see I am looking for evidence if to see if a workable assertion could be made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You're betting so much on the book "virolution" that you haven't read, while I gave you a term in usage "horizontal gene transfer" in that wiki link on how viruses effect evolution of bacteria and more. I thought it was exactly the notion you were looking for, yet you appear to ignore it.

    Why?
    The concepts are different. I have yet to hear "horizontal gene transfer" being discussed at this stage. It happens in bacteria but does it happen in MCOs? It is early days yet, I might come back to it. Too tired to discuss now though.
    How are the concepts different? How does a virus effect DNA if not through HGT in your concept?

    Multicellular organisms are still composed of cells that viruses infect. If you can't address those questions, the thread seems to be nothing but a flight of fancy.
    I am on a journey of learning, from memory I think I suggested HGT back in a previous unnameable thread, and Paleiocheum pointed out in there, by repeated asking me the same question, about "proving it", I found that I had no immediate examples to answer him. That HGT does happen in bacteria is without question but does it happen in MCO? That is not immediately clear.
    What Luis Villarreal and his colleagues propose isn't really a "gene transfer" but a symbiosis, the viruses have infected our ancestors and they seem to be residing in our genome but at times they are still being activated (partially activated) either causing disease or helping us in our lives. Now that is a completely new concept to me, way beyond what I ever imagined in the OP.
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    Well now, "a journey of learning." I noticed you said virtually nothing in your post. Also you say mentioned to the moderators that you have no current examples -looking for an excuse to keep this thread open I presume.

    In that "Life on Mercury" thread you said you were looking for evidence as well...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Well now, "a journey of learning." I noticed you said virtually nothing in your post. Also you say mentioned to the moderators that you have no current examples -looking for an excuse to keep this thread open I presume.

    In that "Life on Mercury" thread you said you were looking for evidence as well...
    lol.

    Have you got evidence of Horizontal gene transfer in MCOs?
    Have you read about "Pandoravirus" I smiled when i read when some speculated it came from Mars. Obviously it has not been involved in that many Horizontal Gene transfers. How would you explain such a large organism having so little commonality with the rest of the living organisms? I've got other things to do today. "six per cent of its genes resemble anything seen on Earth before.

    Read more: Scientists find GIANT Pandoravirus that could have come from an alien planet | Mail Online
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    This thread should have not been started in the first place and deserves to be locked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    This thread should have not been started in the first place and deserves to be locked.
    You've asked questions in it and even offered advice and then say a thing like that!
    Why do you think it should be locked? It is a genuine attempt to understand the role of viruses as a source of genetic variation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    This virolution concept isn't dependent on "a virus" but something like thousands of viruses. It certainly isn't just a single virus, definitely not "a virus" as you said.
    It would be premature to give examples of this without the background knowledge so as i've explained to the moderators I'm not putting up examples till i feel a bit more confident.
    But that wasn't what you said to them, was it? You said you were going to take some time off to read about "this stuff" and instead, you have just kept repeating the same thing, clearly you haven't actually read it.

    This is you starting yet another thread to try to prove something you have no knowledge about, you are still hung up on a word that does not exist and you are again being dishonest about your true motive here. We know this because you have already said that you know what the end result will be and you plan to keep this going for years, while you apparently lead us to that final answer, which you have told us will be significant. So much so that you pondered your hypothesis becoming as great as Darwin's "Origin of the Species".

    You are obsessed with speeding evolution up for some bizarre reason. What you fail to understand is that in the grand scheme of things, evolution on this planet has been very fast. You also did not read your own links, or perhaps you did not understand them, because they do explain what you are apparently trying to "discover". You are not doing anything new, nor are you on the verge of a great scientific discovery, which you seem to believe that you can again pull the same stunt as you have elsewhere where you prattle on with your theories and people have to provide you with the information. You've done it here. After you realised you couldn't get away with spamming youtube videos, you were forced to find journal articles and you ended up getting those from what people suggested without even reading them. Reading the synopsis isn't enough Robi.

    Frankly, I am still trying to figure out how you can claim to be a vet but have so little understanding of evolution and basic biology.

    To support your claims, you need to read the articles, and clearly explain how and why they support your hypothesis. You need to post links to those articles and quote where and explain in detail how and why. What you have been doing has been to provide a link and ask us to do the work for you. Does not work that way.

    You made a claim. You have to provide support for it. And no, that does not mean we have to sit here and read it over a number of years as you make the "discoveries". This isn't a discovery, we already know the answers. We gave you the answers in the other thread. Had you bothered to read it, then this thread would not have even had to have been started. But then again, you aren't interested in the answers, are you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    This virolution concept isn't dependent on "a virus" but something like thousands of viruses. It certainly isn't just a single virus, definitely not "a virus" as you said.
    It would be premature to give examples of this without the background knowledge so as i've explained to the moderators I'm not putting up examples till i feel a bit more confident.
    But that wasn't what you said to them, was it? You said you were going to take some time off to read about "this stuff" and instead, you have just kept repeating the same thing, clearly you haven't actually read it.

    This is you starting yet another thread to try to prove something you have no knowledge about, you are still hung up on a word that does not exist and you are again being dishonest about your true motive here. We know this because you have already said that you know what the end result will be and you plan to keep this going for years, while you apparently lead us to that final answer, which you have told us will be significant. So much so that you pondered your hypothesis becoming as great as Darwin's "Origin of the Species".

    You are obsessed with speeding evolution up for some bizarre reason. What you fail to understand is that in the grand scheme of things, evolution on this planet has been very fast. You also did not read your own links, or perhaps you did not understand them, because they do explain what you are apparently trying to "discover". You are not doing anything new, nor are you on the verge of a great scientific discovery, which you seem to believe that you can again pull the same stunt as you have elsewhere where you prattle on with your theories and people have to provide you with the information. You've done it here. After you realised you couldn't get away with spamming youtube videos, you were forced to find journal articles and you ended up getting those from what people suggested without even reading them. Reading the synopsis isn't enough Robi.

    Frankly, I am still trying to figure out how you can claim to be a vet but have so little understanding of evolution and basic biology.

    To support your claims, you need to read the articles, and clearly explain how and why they support your hypothesis. You need to post links to those articles and quote where and explain in detail how and why. What you have been doing has been to provide a link and ask us to do the work for you. Does not work that way.

    You made a claim. You have to provide support for it. And no, that does not mean we have to sit here and read it over a number of years as you make the "discoveries". This isn't a discovery, we already know the answers. We gave you the answers in the other thread. Had you bothered to read it, then this thread would not have even had to have been started. But then again, you aren't interested in the answers, are you?
    I will admit that going to school and university was a long time ago and science has moved along immensely since then. I passed my exams, I wouldn't say I was a brilliant student for i wasn't but in the end I gained my degree in Veterinary Science. Evolution was not part of the curriculum. I am amazed with the amount of information being available to students on the YT channels. This can then be followed up with Google searches on the topics so the education potential that is available off the internet is truly surprising.

    OK that reference to Darwin was a bit odd but by the end of the day we had gone from Evolution to the word Virolution. Was this the sort of step that i would have imagined? And it was just the sort of step in understanding that I imagined could come from a study of this topic. I'm a bit surprised that you have read the book but you are not a believer. I haven't read the book nor do I have enough background to really take it all in at this stage but with time I was hoping to be able to do it. Why does it all have to be done overnight?

    It will be continuous study on viruses, biology and genetics for a couple of years, and then maybe I will have sufficient evidence to say whether i agree with virolution or not.

    I am not making anyone help me but if there were others with a common interest why not cooperate? Strange as it may seem you have the most interest in the topic. I would only be interested in working together provided you drop all the personal attacks that you are prone to level at me.

    We both keep referring to that previous thread but that was such a horrible experience for me I can't get the courage to face that thread at the moment. I would prefer you to just repost links that you think I should read again here. Just the thought of going there makes me anxious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I will admit that going to school and university was a long time ago and science has moved along immensely since then. I passed my exams, I wouldn't say I was a brilliant student for i wasn't but in the end I gained my degree in Veterinary Science. Evolution was not part of the curriculum. I am amazed with the amount of information being available to students on the YT channels. This can then be followed up with Google searches on the topics so the education potential that is available off the internet is truly surprising.
    And this is why you fail. Yes, the internet has a lot of potential, only if you have the ability to weed the kook and the woo out of it. You seem to lack that ability. Your reference to youtube is a prime example of this.

    For example:

    OK that reference to Darwin was a bit odd but by the end of the day we had gone from Evolution to the word Virolution.
    No, we have not. Virolution is not even a real word, nor is it a valid term. It is merely a catchy headline, made to grab your attention and to convey what the author is trying to convey.

    If you think a made up word will replace evolution, then you clearly are headed in the wrong direction and you have already failed before you began.


    Was this the sort of step that i would have imagined? And it was just the sort of step in understanding that I imagined could come from a study of this topic. I'm a bit surprised that you have read the book but you are not a believer. I haven't read the book nor do I have enough background to really take it all in at this stage but with time I was hoping to be able to do it. Why does it all have to be done overnight?
    Believer of what? That we have viral DNA? Oohh.. This is basic biology. High school biology as a matter of fact. If you wish to understand what you are trying to discuss, then educate yourself first. At the very least, you won't come out with stupid comments like "we had gone from evolution to the word virolution".

    It will be continuous study on viruses, biology and genetics for a couple of years, and then maybe I will have sufficient evidence to say whether i agree with virolution or not.
    As I said before, if you try and pull the same stunt that you tried to pull on other threads, where you ramble on and on, treating this site as your personal blog, than all the members the other site lost because of your inane and frankly stupid posts and trolling and who came to this site will leave this site in droves. Think I'm kidding? There is a reason why you are banned from everywhere you go Robi and it isn't because of your intelligence, but because you try to ram your woo down people's throats and try to claim it is science or a scientific study.

    You have not provided a single thing on your very own but have instead expected and demanded others do the hard work for you. You haven't even bothered to read anything and you actually have the nerve to expect people to put up with your rambling and your woo for years while you just keep making stuff up and expect people to prove you wrong?

    What you are proposing here is not new, nor is it yet to be discovered. It was 'discovered' years ago. To think that you are so deluded that you think your work will somehow overtake Darwin says more about what your delusional fantasies than it does about what you think you are on the cusp of discovering. There is no discovery. We gave you the answers to the questions you have asked in this and the other thread. Had you bothered to read the links and even the parts quoted, then you would have realised that.

    I am not making anyone help me but if there were others with a common interest why not cooperate? Strange as it may seem you have the most interest in the topic. I would only be interested in working together provided you drop all the personal attacks that you are prone to level at me.
    Mate, we only have to open a biology book and read it for ourselves. It's a shame you haven't bothered to even do that and instead expect people to "cooperate", which in other words, you expect people to provide you with the answers. You can't even figure out the search terms for google scholar, for goodness sake, and you spent how long looking up a sentence there because you thought it was scientific?

    If you expect to be taken even remotely seriously, then you need to come into the thread at least understanding what it is you are trying to discuss instead of expecting people to do the work for you.


    We both keep referring to that previous thread but that was such a horrible experience for me I can't get the courage to face that thread at the moment. I would prefer you to just repost links that you think I should read again here. Just the thought of going there makes me anxious.
    You never bothered to read them the first time, why should I bother providing you with the answers again, when your head was stuck so far up your anal cavity to have bothered to read them, and instead you dismissed them because they did not support what you were trying to say?

    What? You expected to be taken seriously when you tried to claim that our ancestors caught a virus from a pig and it resulted in homo sapiens?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    ..... You expected to be taken seriously when you tried to claim that our ancestors caught a virus from a pig and it resulted in homo sapiens?
    Did I really say that? I'd be definitely surprised if it was a statement, I'd be more likely to ask a question, for how could I make a statement with my limited knowledge?
    There definitely were more viruses challenging the humans once we started eating meat and having domesticated animals. That was emphasised in the reports I've listened to so far. OK I'm using YT to help me with the ideas and the terminology so now when I read the textbooks it is more familiar and I understand what they are saying. It is a starting position that's all.

    I definitely don't want this thread to be a continuation of the former, so I'd prefer if you stopped making references back to it. Let's put that stupid thread behind us and progress on the new topic.

    I skimmed through the first page and a bit #108, sounds a bit like traces of Virolution but you never said anything.
    Some useful links;
    Provirus link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provirus
    Link: Horizontal gene transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Link: Horizontal gene transfer between bacteria and animals
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 15th, 2013 at 03:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Also you say mentioned to the moderators that you have no current examples -looking for an excuse to keep this thread open I presume.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    ...sounds a bit like traces of Virolution...
    But it seems OK for examples of terms that have no meaning.

    I mean, how could anyone argue with nothing? It's carte blanche for a blog quest!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Also you say mentioned to the moderators that you have no current examples -looking for an excuse to keep this thread open I presume.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    ...sounds a bit like traces of Virolution...
    But it seems OK for examples of terms that have no meaning.

    I mean, how could anyone argue with nothing? It's carte blanche for a blog quest!
    The book "Virolution' could hardly have been written without an attempt to define the word.
    Even if it is an entirely new word it would have been defined at the the beginning of the book surely?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robittybob1 View Post
    the book "virolution' could hardly have been written without an attempt to define the word.
    Even if it is an entirely new word it would have been defined at the the beginning of the book surely?
    You haven't even read the book!
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    But there was that link to the one and a half hour lecture on the topic and the 20 minute interview where the term is defined, so logically it would also be in the book. Therefore when you read the book you must know what the meaning is.
    I am trying to always use critical thinking, and that is not always easy, but you surely aren't suggesting that in the textbook on Virolution they failed to define the term, or try to explain it.
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    Rob.

    let go of the NONSENSE word.

    Its NOT a technical term.

    Five different members have told you this now. This is the EXACT behavior that go you suspended last week.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I skimmed through the first page and a bit #108, sounds a bit like traces of Virolution but you never said anything.
    Some useful links;
    Provirus link: Provirus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaLink: Horizontal gene transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Link: Horizontal gene transfer between bacteria and animals
    People have been giving you the answer to this query you have and you choose to refuse to acknowledge it, instead you dismissed it because you did not even understand what was being said.

    As I have said previously. We dragged your dehydrated carcass to the water and put the water right in your face. Not our fault if you refuse to drink it.

    The book "Virolution' could hardly have been written without an attempt to define the word.
    Even if it is an entirely new word it would have been defined at the the beginning of the book surely?
    OCD much?

    It's a made up term because it sounded catchy and helped convey what the authors were trying to say.

    It's not a real word.

    How about you read the book, and others, do some research, and then get back to us? Because trying to keep this thread going by obsessing over a made up word is just stupid.

    But there was that link to the one and a half hour lecture on the topic and the 20 minute interview where the term is defined, so logically it would also be in the book. Therefore when you read the book you must know what the meaning is.
    I am trying to always use critical thinking, and that is not always easy, but you surely aren't suggesting that in the textbook on Virolution they failed to define the term, or try to explain it.
    What part of 'a made up word, invented to convey a message' don't you get?

    It's a made up word. Not a real word.

    How about you stop obsessing about it and actually back up your claims?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Rob.

    let go of the NONSENSE word.

    Its NOT a technical term.
    .....
    What about the concept?
    There is a book on the topic using that word so it is hardly that easy to talk about Viruses and evolution without using the concept of "virolution" at some point.
    Earlier in this thread I attempted to answer your questions and I don't think you have acknowledged that. Did i answer you correctly? Answer in #65 and a few more after that.

    What do you think of the concept? Had you read about it and what is your opinion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post

    How about you ..... actually back up your claims?
    I haven't made any claims yet. I am just trying to answer the question "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?" Professor Villarreal, and Dr.Frank Ryan have proposed they do and back up their claims. I have even attempted to find articles that refute their work but I haven't found any yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post

    How about you ..... actually back up your claims?
    I haven't made any claims yet. I am just trying to answer the question "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?" Professor Villarreal, and Dr.Frank Ryan have proposed they do and back up their claims. I have even attempted to find articles that refute their work but I haven't found any yet.
    Well then, how do they back up their claims? And no, a one and a half hour youtube video or reference to a book you haven't read will not suffice.

    Being as vague as possible is another tactic of yours. Alongside excusing yourself from giving examples besides to a word that doesn't exist except for some fiction in your thoughts. But you never intended this thread to be a discussion. The premise before you started it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Rob, how about you start a few of your own threads about viruses and such, instead of posting in other people's threads about it? In New hypothesis if you don't mind.
    I'd have been thinking whether that was an acceptable idea, so thanks for the suggestion. So I won't be forced to come up with references etc in that section?
    I'll try that.
    From the thread: Does evolution keep going until perfection has been acheived?

    But apparently Villarreal, and Ryan know what you mean. And you've just made the claim that they've backed up theirs, so have at it.
    Last edited by Beer w/Straw; December 15th, 2013 at 11:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I haven't made any claims yet. I am just trying to answer the question "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?" Professor Villarreal, and Dr.Frank Ryan have proposed they do and back up their claims. I have even attempted to find articles that refute their work but I haven't found any yet.
    Well then, how do they back up their claims? And no, a one and a half hour youtube video or reference to a book you haven't read will not suffice.

    Being as vague as possible is another tactic of yours. Alongside excusing yourself from giving examples besides to a word that doesn't exist except for some fiction in your thoughts. But you never intended this thread to be a discussion. The premise before you started it:


    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'd have been thinking whether that was an acceptable idea, so thanks for the suggestion. So I won't be forced to come up with references etc in that section?
    I'll try that.
    From the thread: Does evolution keep going until perfection has been acheived?

    But apparently Villarreal, and Ryan know what you mean. And you've just made the claim that they've backed up theirs, so have at it.
    The text book "Virolution" (Frank Ryan) that Tranquille has read, seems to be more than a fiction in my mind.

    But apparently Villarreal, and Ryan know what you mean. And you've just made the claim that they've backed up theirs, so have at it.
    Who knows what you mean by that sentence but I don't sorry.
    Are you affected with a virus today? lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The text book "Virolution" (Frank Ryan) that Tranquille has read, seems to be more than a fiction in my mind.

    Is it?

    Who knows what you mean by that sentence but I don't sorry.

    A lame copout and why this thread should be locked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The text book "Virolution" (Frank Ryan) that Tranquille has read, seems to be more than a fiction in my mind.

    Is it?

    Who knows what you mean by that sentence but I don't sorry.

    A lame copout and why this thread should be locked.
    There doesn't seem to be the logical steps between those two ideas. I'm finished discussing this topic with you.
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    Prof Villarreal has replied
    Hi Robert,

    The following interview might interest you.


    cheers,

    Luis P. Villarreal, Ph.D.



    Professor,
    Center for Virus Research
    Department of Molecular Biology and Biochemistry
    2208 Biological Science 3l
    University of California, Irvine
    Irvine CA 92697


    CVR office phone: (949) 824-9314
    CVR FAX (949) 824-9437
    http://CVR.bio.uci.edu



    Somewhere is an interview?
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    Still waiting, Robi. How do viruses effect evolution of multicellular organisms? Villarreal, and Ryan proposed that viruses drive the evolution in multicellular organisms and they back up their claims. You asked in he original post if viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms, so of course, you must know what they said.


    Are you ignoring me?


    BTW Who said "Virolution" was a text book and not just a non-fiction book?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Still waiting, Robi. How do viruses effect evolution of multicellular organisms? Villarreal, and Ryan proposed that viruses drive the evolution in multicellular organisms and they back up their claims. You asked in he original post if viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms, so of course, you must know what they said.


    Are you ignoring me?


    BTW Who said "Virolution" was a text book and not just a non-fiction book?
    Good questions this time thanks.
    As I said in the OP
    A concept that dawned on me was that viruses could be the factories where new protein forming DNA genes are tested in prior to their inclusion in MCO. That was my thought many years ago and now I am looking for evidence for this. I was thinking this could be a way of speeding up the evolution rate. ...

    This has been in my mind for about 6 years now so I would like to to discuss whether it is a workable hypothesis.
    I started this thread in the morning and it was later that day (Friday 13th for us) that I discovered what Villarreal and Ryan were saying. OK their ideas far exceeded anything I was contemplating. But honestly I had not heard or knew of them prior to that day.

    The logic goes something like this - to be a successful virus it had to have successful genes that would work in the host's cell.
    The rapid life cycle allows for a rapid test rate, so evolution of a virus is faster than evolution the host (figures of 1 million times faster have been used).
    If the host survives the viral DNA inserted remains part of the DNA of the cell. (I'll need to look at finding if there was a way of removing the virus DNA or blocking it (epigenetic block??).

    If the infection involved a germinal cell, the host's offspring could inherit the (blocked) viral genes. (At times they would unblock and participate as a mutation).
    This way a whole functional gene, which could code for a functional protein, is evolved at a time. This whole gene at a time evolution - gave me the courage to ask "do viruses drive evolution?"

    I think that is as far as I got, 6 years ago, and I left it at that. Obviously I hadn't heard of epigenetics then and only a little about the concept of blocking genes (Note: recent concepts are in brackets). The idea that genes turn off and on has been known for a while, since each cell even though having the same DNA code, yet in the body each cell has a specific function.

    There is a lot of coordination in the nucleus, and the inheritance of shape has always been fascinating. How do you code for shape? And if I understood it correctly, Villarreal's use of the epigenetics of the Endogenous Retroviruses (ERVs) goes someway to explaining that.

    I might have to buy the book myself to really know its value and whether it is a work of fiction or not.
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    There are millions of bacteria and about ten times as many viruses in a millimeter of sea water. Most of the viruses are bacteriophages...

    Next time don't innuendo a thread like it was to Charles Darwin's Origin of Species.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    There are millions of bacteria and about ten times as many viruses in a millimeter of sea water. Most of the viruses are bacteriophages...

    Next time don't innuendo a thread like it was to Charles Darwin's Origin of Species.
    "Next time ..." that sounds optimistic.
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