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Thread: Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

  1. #801  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Now we need to get back to the OP and get back on topic for "any halfwit could've come up with (your) criticisms".
    The OP asks "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?". The answer has already been given. The answer is No. There is nothing to get back to. If you choose to indulge the fatuous belief that they might drive evolution then you are maintaining the arrogance that I have objected to and others have commented on. You should, by now, understand where that is going to lead: suspension.

    I am willing to entertain a measured discussion of "To what extent might viruses play a role in evolution?". And I would consider solid, peer reviewed studies that had a direct bearing on, and specifically discussed that possibility. I will not tolerate you juxtaposing two cherry picked and misinterpreted studies and claiming that these "might indicate that x,y, or z are possible".
    You reckon the answer to the question was simply "NO"? OK, I have accepted that the word "drive" was not appropriate in that it is better described as a "role". Any position on their role importance would need to be supported. So we can discuss "To what extent might viruses play a role in evolution?", that seems to be a better wording of the original question. Thanks for that clarification.

    Your restriction might end up killing any chance of discussion, for are there any studies that specifically met this requirement "solid, peer reviewed studies that had a direct bearing on, and specifically discussed that possibility"
    When I started this thread in "New Hypotheses" it was a question on my mind that wasn't based on any particular hypothesis or study.
    I should have started it in the "brain farts" sub-forum. It then would have caused a lot less trouble.
    Cheers

    PS: Is this the "Brain Farts" sub-forum?
    Personal Theories & Alternative Ideas


    Hypotheses or ideas that lack both solid disproof and substantial empirical support, be it from a lack of research in the field or a current lack of technology/data that would enable research in the field, to be discussed in solid scientific terms. This does not include ideas that are purely untestable under any conditions.
    If the question had been asked in this alternative forum would it have been under the same restraints?

    PS2:
    I thought it was started in the "New Hypotheses" subforum but there isn't that category as far as I can tell, but it definitely shifted at some stage.
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Well that is what I say on page 1
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

    John can you tell where it was to start from please for wegs had asked the same question and I might have put her wrong?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; January 30th, 2014 at 03:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Your restriction might end up killing any chance of discussion, for are there any studies that specifically met this requirement "solid, peer reviewed studies that had a direct bearing on, and specifically discussed that possibility"
    ...
    I should have started it in the "brain farts" sub-forum. It then would have caused a lot less trouble.
    Cheers
    I don't know squat but I showed you this: The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells And this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genomes/...gi?taxid=10239 Which leads to this: Viruses take center stage in cellular evolution.
    Did DNA come from viruses?
    Three RNA cells for ribosomal lineages and three DNA viruses to replicate their genomes: a hypothesis for the origin of cellular domain.
    The origin of viruses and their possible roles in major evolutionary transitions.
    Origins of DNA: base invaders.
    The two ages of the RNA world, and the transition to the DNA world: a story of viruses and cells.

    Just that one section linked to this

    Genome Biology | Full text | Viruses take center stage in cellular evolution

    Plus, you haven't even lifted a finger to get the book you were blabbing about: "Virolution."




    Sounds like this thread should be locked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Your restriction might end up killing any chance of discussion, for are there any studies that specifically met this requirement "solid, peer reviewed studies that had a direct bearing on, and specifically discussed that possibility"
    ...
    I should have started it in the "brain farts" sub-forum. It then would have caused a lot less trouble.
    Cheers
    I don't know squat but I showed you this: The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells And this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genomes/...gi?taxid=10239 Which leads to this: Viruses take center stage in cellular evolution.
    Did DNA come from viruses?
    Three RNA cells for ribosomal lineages and three DNA viruses to replicate their genomes: a hypothesis for the origin of cellular domain.
    The origin of viruses and their possible roles in major evolutionary transitions.
    Origins of DNA: base invaders.
    The two ages of the RNA world, and the transition to the DNA world: a story of viruses and cells.

    Just that one section linked to this

    Genome Biology | Full text | Viruses take center stage in cellular evolution

    Plus, you haven't even lifted a finger to get the book you were blabbing about: "Virolution."
    Thanks.
    Just from a quick scan of the abstracts (for I have limited time at the moment) they do look helpful but the emphasis seems to be on the origin of cells and not so much the continual evolution of multicellular organisms. Later today I will spend some time going through them and read them deeper.

    You are right I haven't lifted a finger to get the book "Virolution" yet. - Guilty.
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    Not buying the book, but actually reading it would show some initiative if you were serious.

    I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Not buying the book, but actually reading it would show some initiative if you were serious.

    I guess.
    True, I'll do something about it. Very interesting links you sent me. I'm going to write to John and give him a link to an article written by Carl Zimmer. OK, he too is an author (Science writer) and not a scientist, so does it fit the criteria of allowable publications, so I'll find out.
    [I'm going to take a break from the thread until I have read "Virolution". My nerves are shattered and I don't want to get sick. So I'm taking a break, maybe for a month, just reading the jokes and a few other forums but no posting. - Cheers.]
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    Well, no. You're more scared of getting banned than serious about viruses and evolution. Otherwise, you would have payed more attention to my posts to begin with.

    Very thin ice to say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Very interesting links you sent me.


    I don't want to look like a naive sucker for BS, but if you can show you have the ability to learn -go for it.


    A makeshift meme earlier:


    Is he joking, or does he have brain damage?


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    And don't ever PM me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    And don't ever PM me.
    I told you why I was having time out, and you got personal again. Stop being personal then if you don't want PMs. I had told you about this before.
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    Fuck off!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Fuck off!
    Lucky for you I don't take that personally.
    (You are back on my Ignore List.)
    Last edited by Robittybob1; January 30th, 2014 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Ignore List ammended
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Fuck off!
    Lucky for you I don't take that personally.
    Or what?

    I don't really want to belong to a forum that you're a part of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Fuck off!

    MODERATOR ACTION : The use of profanities, particularly the f-bomb, is not acceptable. I am imposing a day's suspension, after which I sincerely hope that all participants in this discussion will refrain from using this type of language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You could mate and produce entirely viable children with them. You personal dislikes do not biology make.

    your continual reference to culture is a red herring
    "Them"? Who is them? Are you referring to the Bushmen of the Kalahari Desert? Right O, you go over there and get one of the women pregnant and you have a child. A helpless baby is born and now who is going to raise it? In what culture is it going to be raised. Theirs or yours? So culture is important. You can't just send them money, (imposing your culture on them) for I didn't see any shops in the area.
    It is a reference to any two humans on the planet. They have the same amount of potential to reproduce as any other pair of humans, irrespective of culture.

    Culture was and still is irrelevant to this discussion.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You could mate and produce entirely viable children with them. You personal dislikes do not biology make.

    your continual reference to culture is a red herring
    "Them"? Who is them? Are you referring to the Bushmen of the Kalahari Desert? Right O, you go over there and get one of the women pregnant and you have a child. A helpless baby is born and now who is going to raise it? In what culture is it going to be raised. Theirs or yours? So culture is important. You can't just send them money, (imposing your culture on them) for I didn't see any shops in the area.
    It is a reference to any two humans on the planet. They have the same amount of potential to reproduce as any other pair of humans, irrespective of culture.

    Culture was and still is irrelevant to this discussion.
    The point I was trying to make on forum is that is isn't going to be easy to raise the child in a family situation involving mother (Kalahari Bushmen, or San tribe), father (you) and child. Which culture would you all live in while doing this?
    I have never ever suggested that there would be any genetic problem having the child. Except I do remember from the documentary the women chose partners who they considered were good hunters. What are your hunting skills like?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; February 1st, 2014 at 12:52 AM.
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    Its entirely irrelevant to the topic of the thread though, culture is the realm of sociology, this is reproductive and evolutionary biology.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Bob, it may help you to understand why you receive the reactions you do if we can explore why you felt it was relevant to make the point about the cultural contrasts involved in a cross cultural marriage.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with any of the evolutionary topics we have discussed in this rambling thread, yet you appear to have thought it was relevant. Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Bob, it may help you to understand why you receive the reactions you do if we can explore why you felt it was relevant to make the point about the cultural contrasts involved in a cross cultural marriage.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with any of the evolutionary topics we have discussed in this rambling thread, yet you appear to have thought it was relevant. Why?
    Today I read back through the last 4 pages of the thread and felt that the question Paleoichneum and I were discussing hadn't been completed. It didn't need to go on forum, for it was followed up by a PM but it didn't stay there in the PMs. Paleoichneum put it back into forum discussion. Every other question seems to have been covered to some extent.
    The point of discussion didn't really involve marriage but just the responsibility of raising offspring.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; February 1st, 2014 at 03:52 AM.
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    I was completed, as there would be no problems with the parenting at all either.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    The link from that page brought me to What is Creationism? . What type of Creationist am I? Am I defined as a "Methodological Materialistic Evolutionist or a Theistic Evolutionist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I was completed, as there would be no problems with the parenting at all either.
    I'd like to hear about your "No Problem Parenting" methods at some later date.
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    "Retroviruses and the Placenta" http://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/ha...pdf?sequence=1

    This article was downloaded from Harvard University's DASH repository, and is made available under the terms and conditions
    applicable to Open Access Policy Articles ....
    (John I presume it is peer reviewed.)

    Retroviruses appear to have a particular ‘affinity’ for placentas. Retroviral particles and mRNAs are often observed in placentas [2–4] and several genes use retroviral promoters to
    produce placenta-specific transcripts [5]. Domesticated retroviral envelope proteins (‘syncytins’)
    promote the fusion of mononucleate trophoblast cells to form a syncytial layer at the maternal–
    fetal interface of primates and rodents [6–9], and are suspected of performing a similar function
    in ruminants, lagomorphs, and carnivores [10–12]. Most remarkably, the syncytins of each of
    these taxa have been recruited from different retroviral families.
    [Emphasis mine.]
    That would be significant surely?
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  22. #822  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    And what do you think its significance is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    And what do you think its significance is?
    OK you are just asking me to "think" not prove anything OK.

    (You might not like it, so please don't suspend me simply because my brain is spluttering !)

    The idea that has kept coming up involves those periods of "changing over", changing over, for example from being an egg laying mammal to a live birth mammal, right back at those periods where the two lines diverge on this one issue, or changing from one syncytin to another or from one ERV to another.

    It is not possible for me just to "think" how these changes took place, but it felt like these changes are significant enough to define the start of a new species.
    If you use a different retrovirus to develop your syncytin you are the start of a different species, in fact as it said you could be the start of a new "taxa".

    Are there 4 billion female humans on Earth today all using the same ERV when it comes to placentation??? If we all believe in Evolution there should come a time when a mutation occurs and another Retrovirus (a different syncytin) is used instead?

    "Brain fart" time - will this new retrovirus be based on HIV? HIV seems to be real modern day challenge to the human species. Can an organism stop a retrovirus by endogenizing it?

    This is more like science fiction! But that is what evolution is about; coming up with the unusual e.g. flying dinosaurs => birds, quadrupeds going back into the sea => dolphins.

    The challenges of HIV. https://www.immunology.org/sslpage.aspx?pid=1272
    HIV/AIDS

    The mechanism by which human immunodeficiency virus (HIV; the virus that causes AIDS) evades the immune system is far from being completely elucidated. HIV poses a unique challenge for Immunology, which is currently unable to keep up with HIV's profound ability to change its structure and protective coating (which it uses to help mask itself from any antibodies produced by the immune system).

    Immunology is crucial to developing an understanding of how AIDS evolves, but it is also vital to help find an effective remedy for it. Many drugs have been developed to block HIV's ability to reproduce.

    HIV, like other viruses, is unable to grow and reproduce outside living cells. HIV must attach itself to, and then invade, a cell before it can replicate. Newly created viruses then destroy the host cell and seek out other cells to continue replication.

    The HIV/AIDS research community have for the most part shifted their attention away from anti-retroviral drug therapy towards producing effective vaccines against HIV.

    The biggest challenge facing immunologists is developing a vaccine that can help the immune system recognise the different strains of HIV. Although information from the Human Genome Project should help, and several vaccines are currently undergoing trials in humans, most researchers have accepted that it is likely to take years before vaccines for use against HIV/AIDS become available. Moreover, any vaccine produced will be unlikely to block infection completely. A useful vaccine would most likely reduce the amount of HIV in the body, where it is hoped HIV levels remain low and not develop into full blown AIDS.

    Research into microbicides has also been proposed as a novel way tackling the battle with HIV/AIDS. By applying these anti-microbial agents at external sexual sites of the body, HIV is immobilised before it gains entrance into the body.
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    The conclusion of the article has a remarkable statement:
    Conclusion Mother and offspring come into intimate contact at the placenta which is a potential route for
    transmission of pathogens between the generations. The placenta is also a site across which
    resources are transferred to the developing fetus and from which hormones and other factors are
    released into the mother’s circulation to influence maternal metabolism for fetal benefit. As such,
    a fetus resembles a parasite engrafted on a maternal host [41]. Natural selection may have
    coopted adaptations of retroviruses, for their parasitic existence, to help fetuses ‘parasitize’ their
    mothers.
    "a fetus resembles a parasite engrafted on a maternal host [41]. Natural selection may have coopted adaptations of retroviruses, for their parasitic existence, to help fetuses ‘parasitize’ their
    mothers."

    That plus

    "Domesticated retroviral envelope proteins (‘syncytins’)
    promote the fusion of mononucleate trophoblast cells to form a syncytial layer at the maternal–
    fetal interface of primates and rodents [6–9], and are suspected of performing a similar function
    in ruminants, lagomorphs, and carnivores [10–12]. Most remarkably, the syncytins of each of
    these taxa have been recruited from different retroviral families...."

    So there must be some good reason for organisms to change their retrovirus syncytin from time to time. Each taxa or even species might have some specific requirements to overcome*. For the mammals to coopt retroviral proteins for their evolutionary advantage is the type of evidence that supports the hypothesis Viruses play a major role in evolution (of MCOs) well mammals at the very least.

    * I know in some ruminants the placenta stops the transfer of immunoglobulins and they must be given to the offspring in the first few hours after birth in the form of colostrum. This differs from humans where Immuniglobulins of a certain type do cross the placenta.Immunoglobulin G - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    IgG is secreted as a monomer that is small in size allowing it to easily perfuse tissues. It is the only isotype that has receptors to facilitate passage through the human placenta, thereby providing protection to the fetusin utero. Along with IgA secreted in the breast milk, residual IgG absorbed through the placenta provides the neonate with humoral immunity before its ownimmune system develops. Colostrum contains a high percentage of IgG, especially bovinecolostrum. In individuals with prior immunity to a pathogen, IgG appears about 24–48 hours after antigenic stimulation.

    Just a quick look at what a syncytin is:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncytin
    Syncytins are genes encoding proteins derived from the envelope protein of endogenous retroviral elements that have been captured and domesticated on multiple occasions and independently in diverse mammalian species.[4]Gene knockout of syncytin genes in mice provides evidence for their absolute requirement for placenta development and embryo survival.
    The human ERVWE1 locus is derived from a human endogenous retrovirus-W (HERV-W) provirus located on chromosome 7. This provirus has inactivating mutations in the gag and pol genes, but the envelope glycoprotein gene has been selectively preserved. The product of this gene, syncytin, is expressed in the placental syncytiotrophoblast and is involved in fusion of the cytotrophoblast cells to form the syncytial layer of the placenta. The protein has the characteristics of a typical retroviral envelope protein,


    The question then is could the mammals have ever evolved these proteins any other way? My gut feeling is .... but until I have the proof I dare not say it.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; February 3rd, 2014 at 08:16 PM.
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    This article has a very interesting statement in its abstract:
    Syncytin is a captive retroviral envelope protein involved in human placental morphogenesis.

    Abstract

    Many mammalian viruses have acquired genes from their hosts during their evolution. The rationale for these acquisitions is usually quite clear: the captured genes are subverted to provide a selective advantage to the virus. Here we describe the opposite situation, where a viral gene has been sequestered to serve an important function in the physiology of a mammalian host. ......
    This might be an aspect to evolution that I have not yet appreciated; that viruses acquire genes from us as much as we do from them.

    But what I think is particularly remarkable is the potential of transfer of genes from host to host through this mechanism.

    A gene could go from species A to virus A it mutates and infects species B and becomes endogenized in species B. (So species B ends up with part of species A's genetic code.) I don't have an example of this but this could be how the gene for amylase jumped into chimps and humans.
    I wonder how we can find out for certain how the amylase gene entered our common ancestor. It has the characteristics of being associated with a endogenized retrovirus as humans have many more copies of this gene than chimpanzees do.
    This seems so important for amylase is useful for the breakdown of starch and it ends up that the human diet is now predominantly starch based (corn rice wheat potatoes etc.).

    Here too the variant has to be present at the time the diet changes and this initiates a selection advantage, the more copies of the amylase gene (up to some limit) the better.

    And once again Carl Zimmer sums it up in a nice story. "Mammals Made By Viruses"
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/lo.../#.UvBb42LWJvA

    Thierry Heidmann and his colleagues discovered a second version of syncytin in humans and other primates, and dubbed them syncytin 1 and syncytin 2. Both virus proteins seemed to be important to our well-being. In pre-eclampsia, which gives pregnant women dangerously high blood pressure, levels of both syncytin 1 and syncytin 2 drop dramatically. Syncytin 2 also performs another viral trick to help its human master: it helps tamp down the mother’s immune system so she doesn’t attack her baby as a hunk of foreign tissue.
    The whole article is worth reading.

    Strangely enough pigs and horses don't appear to have "the open layer of cells in their placenta like we do". But they seem to breed OK so was it an advantage to have these syncytins?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; February 4th, 2014 at 03:09 AM. Reason: pigs and horses different!
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    If you cannot learn to talk sense, would you at least find a way of condensing your nonsense.
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    Review these articles: Thanks for these links.
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If you cannot learn to talk sense, would you at least find a way of condensing your nonsense.
    I'll try and be to the point. So you still think it is nonsense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    a fetus resembles a parasite engrafted on a maternal host [41]. Natural selection may have
    coopted adaptations of retroviruses, for their parasitic existence, to help fetuses ‘parasitize’ their
    mothers.
    Everyone pay more attention to Mother's Day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    a fetus resembles a parasite engrafted on a maternal host [41]. Natural selection may have
    coopted adaptations of retroviruses, for their parasitic existence, to help fetuses ‘parasitize’ their
    mothers.
    Everyone pay more attention to Mother's Day.
    Here is a Mother's Day gift. Your very own "Article Archives" of Carl Zimmer.
    CarlZimmer.com: Articles
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    I think that was a good come back line Bob..
    ~ Via a 'U-Tube' link I watched the whole 'Debate' between Dr Bill Nye and Mr Ken Ham. I think it's also been in here.. elsewhere.
    There is a small exchange regarding evolution of humanity and smarter bugs.. I think you would enjoy it.. It is 2.48 hours worth and is almost frightening to me to see such as Mr Ham.. I do hope a better education will overcome such foolishness.. there must be something wrong with his wiring.. Regardless of how clever we think we are. A super bug may be what takes us out. The way evolution works is slow and ruthless., and alarming.. Mark.
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    @Astromark.
    Thanks for taking the time looking into it Astromark. I watched it too because you recommended it and I must admit it was a good debate. Deep down there surely must be some inkling within Ken Ham's intellect that the Creationist position is wrong. Been there done that myself. It is disturbing for me as a Christian to find that our beliefs in the traditional sense are so intertwined with the story of Genesis.
    If you want to be surprised read the links from Beer w/Straw. I think it was this one, The two ages of the RNA world, and the transition to the DNA world: a story of viruses and cells.
    In which the researcher proposes that viruses shared with primitive cells the ability to make DNA rather than sticking with the original RNA. Now I was left with the feeling that if that is true, Viruses can never be surpassed as the leading role in evolution, for that in itself seemed such a hugely important step.

    H7N9 Bird flu on the News as I write this .... any virus that allows us to make a vaccine can't really "wipe us out" at the moment. We might practice safe sex saving ourselves and all that but in the long term HIV has got us beat so far.
    Cheers.
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    How exactly has HIV got us beat? It does not stop reproduction, and it is not managed with a number of treatments, The main factor in its spread is the lack of proper sex education.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    How exactly has HIV got us beat? It does not stop reproduction, and it is not managed with a number of treatments, The main factor in its spread is the lack of proper sex education.
    I wouldn't make myself an expert on HIV but from what I seen and read on it during the research for this thread:
    1. It mutates rapidly and overcomes treatments.
    2. Since it mutates so rapidly it is difficult to make and test a vaccine.

    As I was commuting home thinking about how they could make an AIDs vaccine I thought once they use a vaccine then some of the tests for it lose their effectiveness. Is that true? OK it might be kept down at a low level compared to an Influenza Pandemic but the cost and the lifelong HIV infection takes it toll on the health budget.

    Are the numbers of HIV infected cases going down?

    It is a big topic so these views are based on my opinion and paranoia only.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...eat-hiv-565119 Interesting!
    Last edited by Robittybob1; February 5th, 2014 at 02:12 PM.
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    my post should have read "...and it is now managed..." rather then not managed.

    Its all dependent of WHAT is being targeted in the virus. if its targeting the protein sheith then yes there is difficulty due to rotation of the proteins.

    That still doesn't change the statement that it is NOT preventing reproduction, and AIDS is now managed with a number of treatments.

    If using a retroviral treatment the protein rotation may not change the treatment.

    What does this have to do specifically with the OP?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    my post should have read "...and it is now managed..." rather then not managed.

    Its all dependent of WHAT is being targeted in the virus. if its targeting the protein sheith then yes there is difficulty due to rotation of the proteins.

    That still doesn't change the statement that it is NOT preventing reproduction, and AIDS is now managed with a number of treatments.

    If using a retroviral treatment the protein rotation may not change the treatment.

    What does this have to do specifically with the OP?
    I had realized you had made an error, but it was good of you to correct it.
    I have not heard about this "rotation of the proteins" aspect you mention - sorry. Did you mean mutation?

    HIV is a an emerging disease in humans. It will be a good example to see if it effects evolution of the human species, those with a natural resistance will have a selective advantage.
    In Africa whole families have been devastated by the virus so I think your statement "that it is NOT preventing reproduction" could be a bit dubious. Without treatment babies born from infected mothers would be infected with the virus at birth. What will be happening in countries with less developed medical care?
    HIV/AIDS Fact Sheets | AIDSinfo
    I don't want to get stuck in the discussion on HIV.
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    Mitochondrial DNA (after a reasonably extensive internet search) I would say doesn't seem to have picked up any retroviral DNA.

    This was a follow-up to the question in the thread Evolutionary advantage of endosymbionts' double membrane? and my question about whether the double membrane holds out viruses.

    HIV RNA was found inside mitochondria, but from memory the integration of the code had to be preceded by reverse transcription and to do this it relied on its own viral reverse transcriptase enzyme to produce DNA from its RNA genome. Could the required reverse transcriptase be restricted entry into the mitochondria (by the double membrane), and hence there are no ERVs within the mitochondrial DNA?

    Is this a valid argument or not?
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    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    Thought this was worth sharing. I'm amazed. Immune to HIV: How Do They Do It? | LiveScience As it relates to the OP, you might be onto something.
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    Virolution is not an easy book to read. I can see why there were those who thought I had read it prior to this thread.
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    To be honest I dont think anyone though you had actually read it. There was a lot of suggesting that you needed to read it before making assertions based on it.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    To be honest I don't think anyone thought you had actually read it. There was a lot of suggesting that you needed to read it before making assertions based on it.
    I'm only part way through it, but I am having trouble taking it in. It doesn't seem to be improving my knowledge on the subject. I keep getting the feeling one would need to read it along with a Google search on the topics to double check it. This would mean it might take month to finish the book, but at least you would have learnt something from it.
    Was I making assertions based on it, without having read it? I would have just be making assertions based on my own understanding on the topic. They definitely couldn't have been based on the book that I hadn't read yet.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; February 26th, 2014 at 10:34 PM.
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    duplicate post sorry
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    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

    Why did I think it came from a bacterium? It seems to be a repeat of a prior gene. When the gene is repeated it is possible to have different expressions in different tissues, with amylase 1 in the salivary glands and variants of amylase 2 in the pancreas.
    Strangely enough this Mormon site gives a very good explanation (for me).
    http://mormonevolution.blogspot.co.n...r-biology.html

    and to finish with a quote from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylase#Human_evolution
    Human evolution

    Carbohydrates are a food source rich in energy. Amylase is thought to have played a key role in human evolution in allowing humans an alternative to fruit and protein. A duplication of the pancreatic amylase gene developed independently in humans and rodents, which could be suggestive of the importance of the gene. The salivary amylase levels found in the human lineage are six to eight times higher in humans than in chimpanzees, which are mostly fruit eaters and ingest little starch relative to humans.[17]
    How the same genes are expressed with this intensity in humans is not explained, but it sure seems to be a significant evolutionary divergence.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; March 11th, 2014 at 11:24 PM. Reason: URLs added
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  44. #844  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It is a big topic so these views are based on my opinion and paranoia only.
    I admire your consistency.
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