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Thread: Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?

  1. #101  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Overly optimistic.

    STOP making claims based off something you have never interacted with.

    You have not read the book, you have not seen the book, you clearly know absolutely nothing about the book other then the name.

    Start backing the claims you have made regarding the generation of new genes.
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Still waiting, Robi. How do viruses effect evolution of multicellular organisms? Villarreal, and Ryan proposed that viruses drive the evolution in multicellular organisms and they back up their claims. You asked in he original post if viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms, so of course, you must know what they said.


    Are you ignoring me?


    BTW Who said "Virolution" was a text book and not just a non-fiction book?
    Good questions this time thanks.
    As I said in the OP
    A concept that dawned on me was that viruses could be the factories where new protein forming DNA genes are tested in prior to their inclusion in MCO. That was my thought many years ago and now I am looking for evidence for this. I was thinking this could be a way of speeding up the evolution rate. ...

    This has been in my mind for about 6 years now so I would like to to discuss whether it is a workable hypothesis.
    I started this thread in the morning and it was later that day (Friday 13th for us) that I discovered what Villarreal and Ryan were saying. OK their ideas far exceeded anything I was contemplating. But honestly I had not heard or knew of them prior to that day.

    The logic goes something like this - to be a successful virus it had to have successful genes that would work in the host's cell.
    The rapid life cycle allows for a rapid test rate, so evolution of a virus is faster than evolution the host (figures of 1 million times faster have been used).
    If the host survives the viral DNA inserted remains part of the DNA of the cell. (I'll need to look at finding if there was a way of removing the virus DNA or blocking it (epigenetic block??).

    If the infection involved a germinal cell, the host's offspring could inherit the (blocked) viral genes. (At times they would unblock and participate as a mutation).
    This way a whole functional gene, which could code for a functional protein, is evolved at a time. This whole gene at a time evolution - gave me the courage to ask "do viruses drive evolution?"

    I think that is as far as I got, 6 years ago, and I left it at that. Obviously I hadn't heard of epigenetics then and only a little about the concept of blocking genes (Note: recent concepts are in brackets). The idea that genes turn off and on has been known for a while, since each cell even though having the same DNA code, yet in the body each cell has a specific function.

    There is a lot of coordination in the nucleus, and the inheritance of shape has always been fascinating. How do you code for shape? And if I understood it correctly, Villarreal's use of the epigenetics of the Endogenous Retroviruses (ERVs) goes someway to explaining that.

    I might have to buy the book myself to really know its value and whether it is a work of fiction or not.
    Rob, you seriously need to start finding some proper citations for your handwaving! That means referencing whatever you think is relevant, and proper references where the material is discussed and their own references given, original papers or so. DO you understand what I am asking for?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  3. #103  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Still waiting, Robi. How do viruses effect evolution of multicellular organisms? Villarreal, and Ryan proposed that viruses drive the evolution in multicellular organisms and they back up their claims. You asked in he original post if viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms, so of course, you must know what they said.


    Are you ignoring me?


    BTW Who said "Virolution" was a text book and not just a non-fiction book?
    Good questions this time thanks.
    As I said in the OP
    A concept that dawned on me was that viruses could be the factories where new protein forming DNA genes are tested in prior to their inclusion in MCO. That was my thought many years ago and now I am looking for evidence for this. I was thinking this could be a way of speeding up the evolution rate. ...

    This has been in my mind for about 6 years now so I would like to to discuss whether it is a workable hypothesis.
    I started this thread in the morning and it was later that day (Friday 13th for us) that I discovered what Villarreal and Ryan were saying. OK their ideas far exceeded anything I was contemplating. But honestly I had not heard or knew of them prior to that day.

    The logic goes something like this - to be a successful virus it had to have successful genes that would work in the host's cell.
    The rapid life cycle allows for a rapid test rate, so evolution of a virus is faster than evolution the host (figures of 1 million times faster have been used).
    If the host survives the viral DNA inserted remains part of the DNA of the cell. (I'll need to look at finding if there was a way of removing the virus DNA or blocking it (epigenetic block??).

    If the infection involved a germinal cell, the host's offspring could inherit the (blocked) viral genes. (At times they would unblock and participate as a mutation).
    This way a whole functional gene, which could code for a functional protein, is evolved at a time. This whole gene at a time evolution - gave me the courage to ask "do viruses drive evolution?"

    I think that is as far as I got, 6 years ago, and I left it at that. Obviously I hadn't heard of epigenetics then and only a little about the concept of blocking genes (Note: recent concepts are in brackets). The idea that genes turn off and on has been known for a while, since each cell even though having the same DNA code, yet in the body each cell has a specific function.

    There is a lot of coordination in the nucleus, and the inheritance of shape has always been fascinating. How do you code for shape? And if I understood it correctly, Villarreal's use of the epigenetics of the Endogenous Retroviruses (ERVs) goes someway to explaining that.

    I might have to buy the book myself to really know its value and whether it is a work of fiction or not.
    Rob, you seriously need to start finding some proper citations for your handwaving! That means referencing whatever you think is relevant, and proper references where the material is discussed and their own references given, original papers or so. DO you understand what I am asking for?
    I do understand you, but the trouble I have had is that to view the scientific papers you basically need to be a student affiliated with a University.
    I have written back to Luis Villarreal asking him for some specific references. So I'm waiting for another reply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Overly optimistic.

    STOP making claims based off something you have never interacted with.

    You have not read the book, you have not seen the book, you clearly know absolutely nothing about the book other then the name.

    Start backing the claims you have made regarding the generation of new genes.
    Overly optimistic or whatever I wrote originally was a reference to Bw/S saying my "Next thread" or "Next time" as in
    Next time don't innuendo a thread like it was to Charles Darwin's Origin of Species.
    I looked up for a list of Peer Reviewed journals and apparently there is no such definition. So how would I know if an article is peer-reviewed?

    But yes I would like to go through and find papers that prove each of the steps in my logic chain.
    The logic goes something like this - to be a successful virus it had to have successful genes that would work in the host's cell.
    The rapid life cycle allows for a rapid test rate, so evolution of a virus is faster than evolution the host (figures of 1 million times faster have been used).
    If the host survives the viral DNA inserted remains part of the DNA of the cell. (I'll need to look at finding if there was a way of removing the virus DNA or blocking it (epigenetic block??).

    If the infection involved a germinal cell, the host's offspring could inherit the (blocked) viral genes. (At times they would unblock and participate as a mutation).
    This way a whole functional gene, which could code for a functional protein, is evolved at a time. This "whole gene at a time" evolution - gave me the courage to ask "do viruses drive evolution?"

    I think that is as far as I got, 6 years ago, and I left it at that. Obviously I hadn't heard of epigenetics then and only a little about the concept of blocking genes (Note: recent concepts are in brackets). The idea that genes turn off and on has been known for a while, since each cell even though having the same DNA code, yet in the body each cell has a specific function.

    There is a lot of coordination in the nucleus, ....
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 16th, 2013 at 05:28 AM.
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  5. #105  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Really Rob? Really? You have got to be joking.

    Read the definition of Peer-reviewed on Wikipedia then report back here as to what you think it means.

    Also Youtube is not and never well be an acceptable source of information. So stop using it
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  6. #106  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Really Rob? Really? You have got to be joking.

    Read the definition of Peer-reviewed on Wikipedia then report back here as to what you think it means.

    Also Youtube is not and never well be an acceptable source of information. So stop using it
    I know what you mean, but if an article is in such and such magazine how do I know whether it was peer reviewed?
    From Wikipedia on Peer Review .
    Peer review is the evaluation of work by one or more people of similar competence to the producers of the work (peers). It constitutes a form of self-regulation by qualified members of a profession within the relevant field. Peer review methods are employed to maintain standards of quality, improve performance, and provide credibility. In academia peer review is often used to determine an academic paper's suitability for publication.
    What was the example I gave you?
    In this link UC Irvine - Faculty Profile System there are 20 or so publications attributed to Prof Villarreal, ...

    Is this in a peer reviewed Journal? An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis

    "An alternative approach to medical genetics based on modern evolutionary biology. Part 2: retroviral symbiosis"
    That article was in the JRSM or the "Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine". Is that a peer reviewed journal or not?

    OK so I put that name into Wikipedia and got:
    The Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine is an open peer-reviewed medical journal. It is the flagship journal of the Royal Society of Medicine with full editorial independence. Its continuous publication history dates back to 1907
    So is "open peer reviewed" good enough?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 15th, 2013 at 10:20 PM.
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  7. #107  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I looked up for a list of Peer Reviewed journals and apparently there is no such definition. So how would I know if an article is peer-reviewed?


    But yes I would like to go through and find papers that prove each of the steps in my logic chain.
    There's logic in your chain?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    ..... But yes I would like to go through and find papers that prove each of the steps in my logic chain.
    There's logic in your chain?
    I think there is.
    Step 1. "to be a successful virus it has to have successful genes that would work in the host's cell. "
    That just about is a certainty. How a virus mutates before it crosses the species barrier, and then builds up infectivity in the new host. (
    1. infectivity
      Web definitions
      • In epidemiology, infectivity refers to the ability of a pathogen to establish an infection. More specifically, infectivity is a pathogen's capacity for horizontal transmission that is, how frequently it spreads among hosts that are not in a parent-child relationship. ...
        Infectivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 16th, 2013 at 01:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I do understand you, but the trouble I have had is that to view the scientific papers you basically need to be a student affiliated with a University.
    I proved that you were wrong about this for planetary origins. Are you asking me to do the same for this? Sure, many papers will be inaccessible to you without paying a fee, but there are many that are freely available, plus the abstract is nearly always accessible.
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    He will say he hasn't made any claims, however:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I haven't made any claims yet. I am just trying to answer the question "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?" Professor Villarreal, and Dr.Frank Ryan have proposed they do and back up their claims..
    So, naturally I asked how those two mentioned backed up theirs.


    :EDIT:

    Oh, I read that wrong. My bad.

    But if I had a dollar for every time...
    Last edited by Beer w/Straw; December 16th, 2013 at 11:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    He will say he hasn't made any claims, however:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I haven't made any claims yet. I am just trying to answer the question "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?" Professor Villarreal, and Dr.Frank Ryan have proposed they do and back up their claims..
    So, naturally I asked how those two mentioned backed up theirs.


    :EDIT:

    Oh, I read that wrong. My bad.

    But if I had a dollar for every time...
    They have either written whole text books on the topic or they've written many articles and peer review their fellow's work. They have their examples but how or at what point would I put them on the forum? No, that just seems like too much work. I need to take a break from this over the Christmas period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I do understand you, but the trouble I have had is that to view the scientific papers you basically need to be a student affiliated with a University.
    I proved that you were wrong about this for planetary origins. Are you asking me to do the same for this? Sure, many papers will be inaccessible to you without paying a fee, but there are many that are freely available, plus the abstract is nearly always accessible.
    References to the abstracts will be OK too! That is why I deleted a previous link for it was only to an abstract. Did you know it could take an hour sometimes to get access to the free link just to see a paper, and then it doesn't quite cover the aspect one hoped.! I will admit any assistance is most appreciated. I am tempted just to pay the fees and save myself time.
    Thanks John but I feel I need to slow down and consider where I'm going with this. Is it worth the time and investment?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 16th, 2013 at 01:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    They have either written whole text books on the topic or they've written many articles and peer review their fellow's work. They have their examples but how or at what point would I put them on the forum? No, that just seems like too much work. I need to take a break from this over the Christmas period.
    So, what were their claims then? Just the thesis that viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    They have either written whole text books on the topic or they've written many articles and peer review their fellow's work. They have their examples but how or at what point would I put them on the forum? No, that just seems like too much work. I need to take a break from this over the Christmas period.
    So, what were their claims then? Just the thesis that viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms?
    I don't know if you understand me properly, but as I've said already twice, it was only 3 and a bit days ago that I discovered their work. Tranquille has read their book but I haven't, so maybe she is in a better position to answer. I have only got to know about it via YT and all the links have been posted already so you can just watch and listen to get to know their claims. It truly amazes me how they ever came to those conclusions. My question in the OP and subsequent discussion show I wouldn't need to go as far as they have, but they have done the study not me, so I am curious, just like you, to see how they came to those conclusions.
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    So, in effect, this thread is a thesis without an argument.

    That is why I said it should be locked and should have not been started in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    So, in effect, this thread is a thesis without an argument.

    That is why I said it should be locked and should have not been started in the first place.
    Refer to Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    That is the list of the points I want to prove. That could be reworded into a thesis if needed.
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    Well there are a lot of cells in the human body.

    Including some from an immune system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Well there are a lot of cells in the human body.

    Including some from an immune system.
    So what was the point? The viruses would have evolved to infect a preferred cell type, that point will need to be considered.

    Immunity to viruses has a role to play clearing an infection in subsequent infections.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 16th, 2013 at 10:23 PM.
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    My point is, you've scarcely made any distinction between an individual cell and 37.2 trillion.
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  20. #120  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Well there are a lot of cells in the human body.

    Including some from an immune system.
    So what was the point? The viruses would have evolved to infect a preferred cell type, that point will need to be considered Immunity has a role to play in subsequent infections.
    Any change in those cells is TOTALLY POINTLESS. If you had taken any actual college biology courses you would understand why.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  21. #121  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Well there are a lot of cells in the human body.

    Including some from an immune system.
    So what was the point? The viruses would have evolved to infect a preferred cell type, that point will need to be considered Immunity has a role to play in subsequent infections.
    Any change in those cells is TOTALLY POINTLESS. If you had taken any actual college biology courses you would understand why.
    @ Paleoichneum - Please stop making your posts so personal.
    If you had taken any actual college biology courses you would understand why.
    Wasn't needed nor appreciated.
    Any change in those cells is TOTALLY POINTLESS.
    That could very well be a true statement but I could just as easily argue that any virus causing deaths or incapacity could be a factor in the evolution of MCOs, whether it infects the germinal tissue or not.
    You are not just posting for my benefit but to the forum and so you should expand on your thoughts rather than just making personal comments directed at me. Please stop directing personal comments to me.
    The moderators make suggestions on how I can improve the thread but that is appreciated, for self development is a good thing.

    "Critical thinking" and providing references to support the "chain of logic" are what I'm focusing on.

    @ Paleoichneum - I have left you a couple of questions and you have not answered them. I would like you to respond to my responses to your posts please. In particular #106.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    My point is, you've scarcely made any distinction between an individual cell and 37.2 trillion.
    Every species would have a different number of cells. Evolution is going to have a number of factors but the number of cells in a multicellular organism is seldom listed as a factor. Some extinction events seemed to favor smaller mammals, but that was mainly because of the habitats they utilized (burrowing animals as opposed to ones exposed on the land surface).
    Extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    and
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous–Paleogene_extinction_event
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretace..._event#Mammals
    K–Pg boundary mammalian species were generally small, comparable in size to rats; this small size would have helped them to find shelter in protected environments. In addition, it is postulated that some early monotremes, marsupials, and placentals were semiaquatic or burrowing, as there are multiple mammalian lineages with such habits today. Any burrowing or semiaquatic mammal would have had additional protection from K–Pg boundary environmental stresses.[49]
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 17th, 2013 at 08:59 PM.
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    It was interesting to see what has been said about viruses on this forum in previous threads.
    What would happen if there was a "DNA Virus?"
    with the amazing animation of cell division
    Drew Berry: Animations of unseeable biology | Video on TED.com
    virus questions(to long to fit in the title)
    Junk Genes
    Immunity to disease - passing it to your offspring?

    and many more .... but really interesting to see who is still here, and what their views were.
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  24. #124  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    @ Paleoichneum - Please stop making your posts so personal.
    There's nothing personal about it. He is absolutely correct. You claim to be a vet, but you don't even know basic biology? Go to your local library and borrow some biology books. Or go to the local university and look it up in the books they have on the shelves.

    As a vet, you would have access to a vast array of information from journals. Why aren't you making use of it?


    Wasn't needed nor appreciated.
    The comment was probably made in light of you claiming to be a vet.


    That could very well be a true statement but I could just as easily argue that any virus causing deaths or incapacity could be a factor in the evolution of MCOs, whether it infects the germinal tissue or not.
    You are not just posting for my benefit but to the forum and so you should expand on your thoughts rather than just making personal comments directed at me. Please stop directing personal comments to me.
    The moderators make suggestions on how I can improve the thread but that is appreciated, for self development is a good thing.
    It is not for him to do the work for you. People have been giving you the answers and you keep ignoring it. This is your study, you have to back up your claims and provide information to back up your proposal. So far you have tried to get out of it and now you whine because he isn't providing you with the answers you should have been providing to back up your proposal?
    "Critical thinking" and providing references to support the "chain of logic" are what I'm focusing on.
    You haven't provided anything at all. It's not for him to do the work for you.

    @ Paleoichneum - I have left you a couple of questions and you have not answered them. I would like you to respond to my responses to your posts please. In particular #106.
    You want him to tell you what a peer reviewed journal article is? You are sinking so low in trying to dodge backing up your proposal?

    Can you stop trying to weasel and bluff your way out of supporting your own claims?
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  25. #125  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    References to the abstracts will be OK too! That is why I deleted a previous link for it was only to an abstract. Did you know it could take an hour sometimes to get access to the free link just to see a paper,
    In what universe? Are you still on dial up? I have very occasionally found a link may take a couple of attempts and a minute or so to load, but since I am likely loading two or three papers simultaneously it is not a practical delay. Please explain how it can take you an hour to download a paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    !Thanks John but I feel I need to slow down and consider where I'm going with this. Is it worth the time and investment?
    No, you need to speed up. You do not appear to be doing anything except throwing out wild ideas, claiming it is difficulty to access papers, and then misinterpreting the papers you do access!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    .....
    You want him to tell you what a peer reviewed journal article is? You are sinking so low in trying to dodge backing up your proposal?

    Can you stop trying to weasel and bluff your way out of supporting your own claims?
    It is a conversation I'm having with Paleiochneum thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    References to the abstracts will be OK too! That is why I deleted a previous link for it was only to an abstract. Did you know it could take an hour sometimes to get access to the free link just to see a paper,
    In what universe? Are you still on dial up? I have very occasionally found a link may take a couple of attempts and a minute or so to load, but since I am likely loading two or three papers simultaneously it is not a practical delay. Please explain how it can take you an hour to download a paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    !Thanks John but I feel I need to slow down and consider where I'm going with this. Is it worth the time and investment?
    No, you need to speed up. You do not appear to be doing anything except throwing out wild ideas, claiming it is difficulty to access papers, and then misinterpreting the papers you do access!
    Yes by the time you do multiple searches and reading abstracts and then trying to open up a document. You might have to register first and wait to get confirmed. Then find it wasn't any help.
    Internet here isn't that great, and my computer needs replacing.

    I was just hoping all the interjections would slow down so I could get down to the searching for the papers. Do I need to prove I'm a vet, and that I have studied biology, although years ago. It just feels like they are trying to undermine my confidence. Beer w/Straw wanted to know what the authors of the book "Virolution" proposed. Why doesn't she answer that question since she is familiar with it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Yes by the time you do multiple searches and reading abstracts and then trying to open up a document. You might have to register first and wait to get confirmed. Then find it wasn't any help.
    Internet here isn't that great, and my computer needs replacing.
    Then don't post until you have the information. Stop continuing to make random assertions without actually having a clue.

    I was just hoping all the interjections would slow down so I could get down to the searching for the papers. Do I need to prove I'm a vet, and that I have studied biology, although years ago. It just feels like they are trying to undermine my confidence. Beer w/Straw wanted to know what the authors of the book "Virolution" proposed. Why doesn't she answer that question since she is familiar with it?
    This is basic text book stuff Robi. I'd suggest you go to your local library and brush up if you are struggling.

    Also, I did answer your question.

    Not my fault you didn't pay attention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Beer w/Straw wanted to know what the authors of the book "Virolution" proposed. Why doesn't she answer that question since she is familiar with it?
    WTF does this mean? I didn't even know there was a book called "Virolution" until this thread.

    And yes, a pathogen can be purposely released in Australia to kill lots and lots of rabbits. This is nothing new, but how it fits in with your idea nobody knows because it is extremely vague.

    If a virus infects a bacteria cell and a protozoa eats the bacteria, does its offspring become like Wolverine from the X-Men?
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  30. #130  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Well there are a lot of cells in the human body.

    Including some from an immune system.
    So what was the point? The viruses would have evolved to infect a preferred cell type, that point will need to be considered Immunity has a role to play in subsequent infections.
    Any change in those cells is TOTALLY POINTLESS. If you had taken any actual college biology courses you would understand why.
    @ Paleoichneum - Please stop making your posts so personal.
    If you had taken any actual college biology courses you would understand why.
    Wasn't needed nor appreciated.
    Any change in those cells is TOTALLY POINTLESS.
    That could very well be a true statement but I could just as easily argue that any virus causing deaths or incapacity could be a factor in the evolution of MCOs, whether it infects the germinal tissue or not.
    You are not just posting for my benefit but to the forum and so you should expand on your thoughts rather than just making personal comments directed at me. Please stop directing personal comments to me.
    The moderators make suggestions on how I can improve the thread but that is appreciated, for self development is a good thing.

    "Critical thinking" and providing references to support the "chain of logic" are what I'm focusing on.

    @ Paleoichneum - I have left you a couple of questions and you have not answered them. I would like you to respond to my responses to your posts please. In particular #106.
    Yes that is a peer-reviewed journal. As is the majority (though not all) of what is found using google scholar.

    The criticism is entierly valid as you do claim to have the biology training you would have got to become a vet.

    I guess I should have gotten more information though. Did you do your biology before or after Watson & Crick published their discovery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    .....
    You want him to tell you what a peer reviewed journal article is? You are sinking so low in trying to dodge backing up your proposal?

    Can you stop trying to weasel and bluff your way out of supporting your own claims?
    It is a conversation I'm having with Paleiochneum thanks.
    Actually you are having a conversation with the entire forum, not just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    .....
    You want him to tell you what a peer reviewed journal article is? You are sinking so low in trying to dodge backing up your proposal?

    Can you stop trying to weasel and bluff your way out of supporting your own claims?
    It is a conversation I'm having with Paleiochneum thanks.
    Are you also going to assert that the event favored large reptiles too then? As crocodylians and testudines both had larger members survive the event. The K-T extinction uniformly killed all life over a certain range, so saying it favored a certain animal group under a certain size is bollocks in the context you are using.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Yes by the time you do multiple searches and reading abstracts and then trying to open up a document. You might have to register first and wait to get confirmed. Then find it wasn't any help.
    Internet here isn't that great, and my computer needs replacing.
    Then don't post until you have the information. Stop continuing to make random assertions without actually having a clue.

    I was just hoping all the interjections would slow down so I could get down to the searching for the papers. Do I need to prove I'm a vet, and that I have studied biology, although years ago. It just feels like they are trying to undermine my confidence. Beer w/Straw wanted to know what the authors of the book "Virolution" proposed. Why doesn't she answer that question since she is familiar with it?
    This is basic text book stuff Robi. I'd suggest you go to your local library and brush up if you are struggling.

    Also, I did answer your question.

    Not my fault you didn't pay attention.
    It was Beer w/Straw's question not mine. She was wanting those answers not me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Yes that is a peer-reviewed journal. As is the majority (though not all) of what is found using google scholar.
    ....
    The criticism is entierly valid as you do claim to have the biology training you would have got to become a vet.
    .....
    I guess I should have gotten more information though. Did you do your biology before or after Watson & Crick published their discovery?
    ....
    Actually you are having a conversation with the entire forum, not just me.
    .....
    Are you also going to assert that the event favored large reptiles too then? As crocodylians and testudines both had larger members survive the event. The K-T extinction uniformly killed all life over a certain range, so saying it favored a certain animal group under a certain size is bollocks in the context you are using.
    "Yes that is a peer-reviewed journal. As is the majority (though not all) of what is found using google scholar." Thanks
    ....
    "The criticism is entierly valid as you do claim to have the biology training you would have got to become a vet." - Funny but thanks
    .....
    "I guess I should have gotten more information though. Did you do your biology before or after Watson & Crick published their discovery?" even funnier and thanks.
    ....
    "Actually you are having a conversation with the entire forum, not just me." Yes but those questions were for you "@ Paleiochneum" means in my language "for you".
    .....
    "Are you also going to assert that the event favored large reptiles too then? As crocodylians and testudines both had larger members survive the event. The K-T extinction uniformly killed all life over a certain range, so saying it favored a certain animal group under a certain size is bollocks in the context you are using." - too much is unknown about the mechanism of that extinction period, but the one feature seemed to me to be "protection - underground or under water" maybe. It is not possible to sum it up in a few words. But moving on....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Beer w/Straw wanted to know what the authors of the book "Virolution" proposed. Why doesn't she answer that question since she is familiar with it?
    WTF does this mean? I didn't even know there was a book called "Virolution" until this thread.

    And yes, a pathogen can be purposely released in Australia to kill lots and lots of rabbits. This is nothing new, but how it fits in with your idea nobody knows because it is extremely vague.

    If a virus infects a bacteria cell and a protozoa eats the bacteria, does its offspring become like Wolverine from the X-Men?
    "She" is not referring to you in particular.
    "a pathogen can be purposely released in Australia to kill lots and lots of rabbits" The ones that don't die have an advantage that is part of evolution. "Survival of the fittest" seems like a basic Darwinian concept.

    "does its offspring become like Wolverine from the X-Men?" - don't follow it sorry.
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    Well, when a thread starts to get incoherent (aside from Wolverine who is a mutant with possible protozoa parents) it should IMO get back on track.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Well, when a thread starts to get incoherent (aside from Wolverine who is a mutant with possible protozoa parents) it should IMO get back on track.

    Thanks.

    My wishes too.
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  36. #136  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    but the one feature seemed to me to be "protection - underground or under water" maybe. It is not possible to sum it up in a few words. But moving on....
    Wait! What?

    What the?

    You think dinosaurs went under ground and under water for protection?

    Do you believe in the Loch Ness monster Robi?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    but the one feature seemed to me to be "protection - underground or under water" maybe. It is not possible to sum it up in a few words. But moving on....
    Wait! What?

    What the?

    You think dinosaurs went under ground and under water for protection?

    Do you believe in the Loch Ness monster Robi?
    Have you heard of the Tuatara?
    Tuatara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That "dinosaur" survived and it lived in a burrow.

    No I haven't seen a Loch Ness Monster, have you?
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  38. #138  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    but the one feature seemed to me to be "protection - underground or under water" maybe. It is not possible to sum it up in a few words. But moving on....
    Wait! What?

    What the?

    You think dinosaurs went under ground and under water for protection?

    Do you believe in the Loch Ness monster Robi?
    Have you heard of the Tuatara?
    Tuatara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That "dinosaur" survived and it lived in a burrow.

    No I haven't seen a Loch Ness Monster, have you?
    Its not even close to being a dinosaur. And the Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all.

    If burrowing or aquatic living was a protection why are the Plesiosaurs extinct?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    You think dinosaurs went under ground and under water for protection?
    Sure they did: Silurians
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    but the one feature seemed to me to be "protection - underground or under water" maybe. It is not possible to sum it up in a few words. But moving on....
    Wait! What?

    What the?

    You think dinosaurs went under ground and under water for protection?

    Do you believe in the Loch Ness monster Robi?
    Have you heard of the Tuatara?
    Tuatara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That "dinosaur" survived and it lived in a burrow.

    No I haven't seen a Loch Ness Monster, have you?
    Its not even close to being a dinosaur. And the Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all.

    If burrowing or aquatic living was a protection why are the Plesiosaurs extinct?
    In the phylogenic tree Dinosaurs had a common ancestor (Sauria) with the Tuatara so it is back there in time.

    "Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all" - Getting the timescale right
    The Cretaceous (/krɨˈtʃəs/, krə-tay-shəs), derived from the Latin "creta" (chalk), usually abbreviated K for its Germantranslation Kreide (chalk), is a geologic period and system from circa 145 4 to 66 million years (Ma) ago. In the geologic timescale, the Cretaceous follows the Jurassic period and is followed by the Paleogene period of the Cenozoic era. It is the last period of the Mesozoic Era, and, spanning 79 million years, the longest period of the Phanerozoic Eon.
    How did you figure out that "Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all"?
    When did the Plesiosaurs become extinct?
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  41. #141  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?
    Are viruses part of the enviroment of multicellular organisms?

    Yes.

    So the answer is yes.
    No way. Where did you just come from? Are you back? If so, WELCOME!


    Yep, there is no dispute about viruses having a role, but Rob has something much bigger in mind and for that there isn't evidence.
    Do you accept there is evidence of "Virolution"?
    Define virolution.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post

    Define virolution.
    as I posted before.
    I found a talk by LUIS P. VILLARREAL (Professor, Molecular Biology and Biochemistry
    School of Biological Sciences, Director, Center for Virus Research, Center for Virus Research PH.D., University of California, San Diego B.S., California State University at Los Angeles, 1971, Biochemistry)
    UC Irvine - Faculty Profile System
    Working at the University of California, Irvine.

    In the interview he defines virolution. The quote defines virolution in his words, "Virolution is a process of evolution that is mediated by the addition of virus information to the host.
    Historically when such a process has been seen it has been thought of as unimportant unrelated to the adaptation and survival of the host, but viruses have a lot of selection because there exists this enormous virosphere that wasn't appreciated historically and certainly not during the genesis of the modern synthesis of the Darwinian thinking.....".

    But I was hoping to see if it was possible to find evidence to support the following:
    "
    The logic goes something like this - to be a successful virus it had to have successful genes that would work in the host's cell.
    The rapid life cycle allows for a rapid test rate, so evolution of a virus is faster than evolution the host (figures of 1 million times faster have been used).
    If the host survives the viral DNA inserted remains part of the DNA of the cell. (I'll need to look at finding if there was a way of removing the virus DNA or blocking it (epigenetic block??).

    If the infection involved a germinal cell, the host's offspring could inherit the (blocked) viral genes. (At times they would unblock and participate as a mutation).
    This way a whole functional gene, which could code for a functional protein, is evolved at a time. This whole gene at a time evolution - gave me the courage to ask "do viruses drive evolution?""

    I want to discuss these steps, step by step to see if MCOs can get whole genes from the viral genome.
    (Sorry I'm just too tired to be accurate tonight but I'll fix it in the morning.)
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  43. #143  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Its not even close to being a dinosaur. And the Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all.

    If burrowing or aquatic living was a protection why are the Plesiosaurs extinct?
    In the phylogenic tree Dinosaurs had a common ancestor (Sauria) with the Tuatara so it is back there in time.

    "Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all" - Getting the timescale right
    The Cretaceous (/krɨˈtʃəs/, krə-tay-shəs), derived from the Latin "creta" (chalk), usually abbreviated K for its Germantranslation Kreide (chalk), is a geologic period and system from circa 145 4 to 66 million years (Ma) ago. In the geologic timescale, the Cretaceous follows the Jurassic period and is followed by the Paleogene period of the Cenozoic era. It is the last period of the Mesozoic Era, and, spanning 79 million years, the longest period of the Phanerozoic Eon.
    How did you figure out that "Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all"?
    When did the Plesiosaurs become extinct?
    And being in the same higher taxonomic clade as ALL other lizards and snakes makes the Tuatara a dinosaur how?

    Crocodylomorphs also survived the event, does that mean they are burrowing animals?

    You avoided the question regarding the plesiosaurs.
    Beer w/Straw likes this.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Instead of addressing Pale... why don't you say how viruses drive the evolution of MCOs?

    I think everyone is getting fed up, or do we have to wait a couple years for an answer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Perhaps you didn't realize it wasn't the Onion parodying him, but me parodying his Life on Mercury thread with an Onion brief. http://www.theonion.com/articles/scientists-theorize-sun-could-support-firebased-li,34559/
    H
    ence, he's either lying or really believes he's that special for attention.

    He already likened this thread, that which he knows nothing about yet, to a possible candidate to be as influential as Darwins' Origin of Species.

    Well, is he lying or not about that one?

    Maybe there is more truth than insult in my one word post. Evidence would be how he spewed his Life on Mercury thread because a moderator turned a blind eye.

    I will postpone further comments on that after he has provided more evidence that might support the notion of the evolution of multicellular organisms being driven by viruses.

    130 posts later and I have yet to see something that might support this notion.
    I noticed that members Paleoichneum and Tranquille seem to know more about these subjects than I do, therefore I will refrain from commenting on the O.P.
    Last edited by Cogito Ergo Sum; December 19th, 2013 at 12:27 PM.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    That's still not an apology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Instead of addressing Pale... why don't you say how viruses drive the evolution of MCOs?

    I think everyone is getting fed up, or do we have to wait a couple years for an answer?
    I have never said I have the answer to this one. The question is yet to be answered, but I had formulated this chain of logic years ago and I hoping to tackle it now. So I don't mind Paleiochneum asking his questions for he does ask the most in depth questions which is going to help me achieve the result.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Its not even close to being a dinosaur. And the Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all.

    If burrowing or aquatic living was a protection why are the Plesiosaurs extinct?
    In the phylogenic tree Dinosaurs had a common ancestor (Sauria) with the Tuatara so it is back there in time.

    "Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all" - Getting the timescale right
    The Cretaceous (/krɨˈtʃəs/, krə-tay-shəs), derived from the Latin "creta" (chalk), usually abbreviated K for its Germantranslation Kreide (chalk), is a geologic period and system from circa 145 4 to 66 million years (Ma) ago. In the geologic timescale, the Cretaceous follows the Jurassic period and is followed by the Paleogene period of the Cenozoic era. It is the last period of the Mesozoic Era, and, spanning 79 million years, the longest period of the Phanerozoic Eon.
    How did you figure out that "Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all"?
    When did the Plesiosaurs become extinct?
    And being in the same higher taxonomic clade as ALL other lizards and snakes makes the Tuatara a dinosaur how?

    Crocodylomorphs also survived the event, does that mean they are burrowing animals?

    You avoided the question regarding the plesiosaurs.
    I tried to find the answer to the plesiosaurs question. I personally feel it is uncertain that the plesiosaurs all died out at that time (65 million Y ago.)
    I accept now that the way New Zealanders call their Tuataras "little dinosaurs" is wrong.
    Crocodylomorphs - I don't know of course but some lived in the water so some could presumable bury themselves in mud, or burrow into the banks of streams.
    Crocodylomorpha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it says "very adaptive" so burrowing is a possibility too, but I don't know and can't really see how it is on topic. - moving on.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 18th, 2013 at 02:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Instead of addressing Pale... why don't you say how viruses drive the evolution of MCOs?

    I think everyone is getting fed up, or do we have to wait a couple years for an answer?
    I have never said I have the answer to this one. The question is yet to be answered, but I had formulated this chain of logic years ago and I hoping to tackle it now. So I don't mind Paleiochneum asking his questions for he does ask the most in depth questions which is going to help me achieve the result.
    Yes yes yes.

    We'll have to wait years for your expert opinion.
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  50. #150  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post

    Define virolution.
    as I posted before.
    I found a talk by LUIS P. VILLARREAL (Professor, Molecular Biology and Biochemistry
    School of Biological Sciences, Director, Center for Virus Research, Center for Virus Research PH.D., University of California, San Diego B.S., California State University at Los Angeles, 1971, Biochemistry)
    UC Irvine - Faculty Profile System
    Working at the University of California, Irvine.

    In the interview he defines virolution. The quote defines virolution in his words, "Virolution is a process of evolution that is mediated by the addition of virus information to the host.
    Historically when such a process has been seen it has been thought of as unimportant unrelated to the adaptation and survival of the host, but viruses have a lot of selection because there exists this enormous virosphere that wasn't appreciated historically and certainly not during the genesis of the modern synthesis of the Darwinian thinking.....".

    But I was hoping to see if it was possible to find evidence to support the following:
    "
    The logic goes something like this - to be a successful virus it had to have successful genes that would work in the host's cell.
    The rapid life cycle allows for a rapid test rate, so evolution of a virus is faster than evolution the host (figures of 1 million times faster have been used).
    If the host survives the viral DNA inserted remains part of the DNA of the cell. (I'll need to look at finding if there was a way of removing the virus DNA or blocking it (epigenetic block??).

    If the infection involved a germinal cell, the host's offspring could inherit the (blocked) viral genes. (At times they would unblock and participate as a mutation).
    This way a whole functional gene, which could code for a functional protein, is evolved at a time. This whole gene at a time evolution - gave me the courage to ask "do viruses drive evolution?""

    I want to discuss these steps, step by step to see if MCOs can get whole genes from the viral genome.
    (Sorry I'm just too tired to be accurate tonight but I'll fix it in the morning.)
    if you want to seek evidence why don't you do a pubmed search.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
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  51. #151  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Instead of addressing Pale... why don't you say how viruses drive the evolution of MCOs?

    I think everyone is getting fed up, or do we have to wait a couple years for an answer?
    I have never said I have the answer to this one. The question is yet to be answered, but I had formulated this chain of logic years ago and I hoping to tackle it now. So I don't mind Paleiochneum asking his questions for he does ask the most in depth questions which is going to help me achieve the result.
    Yes yes yes.

    We'll have to wait years for your expert opinion.
    Well what do you make of this?
    Scientists Discover Second Genetic Code Hidden in DNA
    Scientists have discovered a second code hiding within DNA. This second code contains information that changes how scientists read the instructions contained in DNA and interpret mutations to make sense of health and disease
    It doesn't explain it very well but it shows where the experts are looking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post
    if you want to seek evidence why don't you do a pubmed search.
    I will. I have already signed up for several of those sites but now I'm confused over usernames , passwords and email addresses. I'm just a bit disorganized at the moment, but I'll reorganize and get going. It has been less than a week, but most of that has been establishing the ground work, and I feel that is settling down now.

    Does it sound like a sensible logic plan to you? Do you think it could be worth the effort of doing the study?
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    Stop deleting my posts.

    I can argue their validity but you you assume too much.

    :EDIT:

    Also, I've said this thread should be locked several times. So whoever is deleting my posts should blame themselves first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    ....
    @ Beer w/Straw - Who are you addressing? Deleting posts would be a moderator function surely. Please try and keep this thread on topic.

    The first point to look at 1. "to be a successful virus it had to have successful genes that would work in the host's cell.

    (I have been very curious as to know what the viral genes actually code for.)
    Here is a little information what HIV codes for.
    http://www.cellsalive.com/hiv4.htm

    Interesting! That the proteins are cut up by the virus and then assembled, whereas it would seem logical (at least to disorganized me) to cut it up after it has been packaged. How do it keep the right number of proteins together and bundle into the package?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 18th, 2013 at 06:10 PM.
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    I can't say anything bad about you -the moderators think you're a great scientist!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Its not even close to being a dinosaur. And the Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all.

    If burrowing or aquatic living was a protection why are the Plesiosaurs extinct?
    In the phylogenic tree Dinosaurs had a common ancestor (Sauria) with the Tuatara so it is back there in time.

    "Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all" - Getting the timescale right
    The Cretaceous (/krɨˈtʃəs/, krə-tay-shəs), derived from the Latin "creta" (chalk), usually abbreviated K for its Germantranslation Kreide (chalk), is a geologic period and system from circa 145 4 to 66 million years (Ma) ago. In the geologic timescale, the Cretaceous follows the Jurassic period and is followed by the Paleogene period of the Cenozoic era. It is the last period of the Mesozoic Era, and, spanning 79 million years, the longest period of the Phanerozoic Eon.
    How did you figure out that "Cretaceous genera known do not indicate if burrowing was a behavior at all"?
    When did the Plesiosaurs become extinct?
    And being in the same higher taxonomic clade as ALL other lizards and snakes makes the Tuatara a dinosaur how?

    Crocodylomorphs also survived the event, does that mean they are burrowing animals?

    You avoided the question regarding the plesiosaurs.
    I tried to find the answer to the plesiosaurs question. I personally feel it is uncertain that the plesiosaurs all died out at that time (65 million Y ago.)
    I accept now that the way New Zealanders call their Tuataras "little dinosaurs" is wrong.
    Crocodylomorphs - I don't know of course but some lived in the water so some could presumable bury themselves in mud, or burrow into the banks of streams.
    Crocodylomorpha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it says "very adaptive" so burrowing is a possibility too, but I don't know and can't really see how it is on topic. - moving on.
    What contradictory evidence do you have for plesiosaurs living past the impact 66 million years ago? ( 66mya is the currently agreed on end of the Cretaceous)

    yes it is , they are using Dinosaur in the highly vernacular sense and not in any way a taxonomic sense.

    There is absolutely no evidence of burrowing in any of the Crocodylomorph clades, your "what-if" is as valid and supported as saying they turned to steel until the food repopulated. So no we are not moving on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    I can't say anything bad about you -the moderators think you're a great scientist!
    If you have anything bad to say about me say it in a PM. I'm listening to everyone who writes to this thread, and I'm reading and researching what anyone says.

    "Viruses" and "Evolution" are very large topics, but I'm not studying any one particular virus but viruses in general to see if it was possible for MCOs to make use of viral sourced information. If that recent research is correct there are two codes within the same DNA sequence (which sounds a bit like epigenetics). They certainly have some nifty genes producing efficient enzymes and they can reproduce at an enormously fast rate, well that is my impression.
    But if there are two codes within the same strand (as the prior article mentioned.), does that mean one code can be shut down and the other still remain functional? So the code may no longer produce viral proteins (from viral source DNA) but still give the cell information regarding some other function.
    (So that was similar to my thoughts on virolution, where they were saying the viruses in our DNA are inactive (non-coding) but still play a part in the epigenetic regulation of the cell. (Cells in MCO makes up the organism, but each cell is primarily regulated by its own DNA (nucleus)).

    How fast can a virus replicate? Does that determine it's evolution rate?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 19th, 2013 at 12:03 AM. Reason: each cell is primarily regulated by its own DNA (nucleus)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What contradictory evidence do you have for plesiosaurs living past the impact 66 million years ago? ( 66mya is the currently agreed on end of the Cretaceous)

    yes it is , they are using Dinosaur in the highly vernacular sense and not in any way a taxonomic sense.

    There is absolutely no evidence of burrowing in any of the Crocodylomorph clades, your "what-if" is as valid and supported as saying they turned to steel until the food repopulated. So no we are not moving on.
    I never said I had "contradictory evidence" that "plesiosaurs living past the impact 66 million years ago". It was an opinion.

    We need to move on. Crocodiles lay eggs underground that in itself is a form of "burrowing". And They can hold their breath underwater so that would be an advantage in a flash fire situation. Burrowing or submerging were the options I first proposed as protection.

    Read about burrowing crocodiles!
    "Crocodiles: Their Ecology, Management, and Conservation"
    also
    "
    A CROCODILE'S NATURAL HABITAT"

    http://animals.pawnation.com/crocodi...itat-3107.html
    Burrow Habitat

    American crocodiles dig burrow systems that provide an alternative refuge and resting place in case water levels are too low to offer cover. The entry to the burrow is usually camouflaged as it is built partly or completely underwater. The burrow may be quite shallow, perhaps only 2 feet below ground, according to the University of Michigan Museum of Zoology's Animal Diversity Web.
    So my "what-if" is more valid and supported than your attempt at saying "they turned to steel until the food repopulated" because that has never happened in any animal, yet burrowing and submerging behaviours is well known.

    Now move on please.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 18th, 2013 at 08:27 PM. Reason: examples of burrowing crocodiles.
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    Now move on please.
    More shite from Robbity. Why is this permitted?
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
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    What am I saying that is so wrong AlexG? You must have some reason for a comment like that or are you just harping on about the troubles of our past and not being able to let it go and move on?

    Personally I'd prefer if you just stayed away from this thread unless you are willing to contribute something relevant to the biological sciences.
    Discuss viruses, evolution, virolution and life please.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 19th, 2013 at 12:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You're betting so much on the book "virolution" that you haven't read, while I gave you a term in usage "horizontal gene transfer" in that wiki link on how viruses effect evolution of bacteria and more. I thought it was exactly the notion you were looking for, yet you appear to ignore it.

    Why?
    The concepts are different. I have yet to hear "horizontal gene transfer" being discussed at this stage. It happens in bacteria but does it happen in MCOs? It is early days yet, I might come back to it. Too tired to discuss now though.
    How are the concepts different? How does a virus effect DNA if not through HGT in your concept?

    Multicellular organisms are still composed of cells that viruses infect. If you can't address those questions, the thread seems to be nothing but a flight of fancy.
    HGT was when one species gains a small portion genetic material from another species or the same species using the actions of an intermediary (a virus or bacterium). So it was not really a true viral gene that gets transferred but part of another previous host.

    Virolution is the use of the whole viral genome directly. Whether this is a mutated form of the virus or a virulent form I am unsure. So at times they could virtually be one and the same but the usual amount of DNA transferred is vastly different in my opinion.
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    Another online paper by Professor Villarreal. He just sent me the link to the paper so I haven't had time to read it yet.
    (This was to answer Paleiochneum's question as to whether Prof Villarreal had published peer reviewed articles (Prof. himself thought that was a weird accusation to make against him.)

    "Detection of the human endogenous retrovirus ERV3-encoded Env-protein in human tissues using antibody-based proteomics."

    Detection of the human endogenous retrovirus ERV3-encoded Env-protein in human tissues using antibody-based proteomics
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    HGT was when one species gains a small portion genetic material from another species or the same species using the actions of an intermediary (a virus or bacterium). So it was not really a true viral gene that gets transferred but part of another previous host.

    Virolution is the use of the whole viral genome directly. Whether this is a mutated form of the virus or a virulent form I am unsure. So at times they could virtually be one and the same but the usual amount of DNA transferred is vastly different in my opinion.
    Well, the moderation staff thinks you're right.

    Bravo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    HGT was when one species gains a small portion genetic material from another species or the same species using the actions of an intermediary (a virus or bacterium). So it was not really a true viral gene that gets transferred but part of another previous host.

    Virolution is the use of the whole viral genome directly. Whether this is a mutated form of the virus or a virulent form I am unsure. So at times they could virtually be one and the same but the usual amount of DNA transferred is vastly different in my opinion.
    Well, the moderation staff thinks you're right.

    Bravo.
    What do you think? Have you read the threads listed below? What caused single celled organisms to evolve into complex multi-cellular organisms?

    This is hypothetical.
    Is interesting for this thread is discussing MCOs too. How do they go from unicellular to multicellular? I was thinking it had to do with epigenetics and cell specialization. Previously all cells reproduced as individuals but even if two cells became the first MCO one cell must have specialized and the other retained the role of reproduction. But if the 2 cells are stuck together that reproduction, practically requires a type of sexual reproduction or if loosely bound maybe budding (Meiosis) of the germinal cell only. Would that step be a step too far?

    So that leads me to think that specialisation might have happened in unicellular first, yet is hard to see how they cooperated.

    Was specialization even mentioned? Yes MarnixR got it. What caused single celled organisms to evolve into complex multi-cellular organisms?

    I was thinking maybe it would need to be more than 2 cells to work effectively for the first two specializations could have been one cell being male like and the other female like. Then those two would need others to become specialized at procurement in animals, and they would share the nutrients. So a 4 cell structure might be a starter. 2 for reproduction and 2 for procurement and digestion.

    Well that was my first attempt to think that one through. Interesting to add in the virolution idea of endogenous viruses being involved in this initial specialization.
    It is certainly something to look out for as the study progresses.
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    Well, since I've had my intoxicated abreaction already, I'm a more amiable. You probably didn't read the questions I asked you cause they got deleted. (They were probably too nice.)

    Anyway, you ask me what I think? Ultimately, I think you're more concerned that microorganisms on the planet Mercury migrated to Earth some how.

    I really don't know what else to say.
    Last edited by Beer w/Straw; December 19th, 2013 at 09:06 AM.
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  66. #166  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What am I saying that is so wrong AlexG? You must have some reason for a comment like that or are you just harping on about the troubles of our past and not being able to let it go and move on?

    Personally I'd prefer if you just stayed away from this thread unless you are willing to contribute something relevant to the biological sciences.
    Discuss viruses, evolution, virolution and life please.
    Can you stop with the made up words.
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    OK, I wanted to give you a Christmas present but I couldn't find Brock Biology of Microorganisms in pdf.

    I may be cheap and the link may have been posted before, however, it's the thought that counts.

    The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What contradictory evidence do you have for plesiosaurs living past the impact 66 million years ago? ( 66mya is the currently agreed on end of the Cretaceous)

    yes it is , they are using Dinosaur in the highly vernacular sense and not in any way a taxonomic sense.

    There is absolutely no evidence of burrowing in any of the Crocodylomorph clades, your "what-if" is as valid and supported as saying they turned to steel until the food repopulated. So no we are not moving on.
    I never said I had "contradictory evidence" that "plesiosaurs living past the impact 66 million years ago". It was an opinion.

    We need to move on. Crocodiles lay eggs underground that in itself is a form of "burrowing". And They can hold their breath underwater so that would be an advantage in a flash fire situation. Burrowing or submerging were the options I first proposed as protection.

    Read about burrowing crocodiles!
    "Crocodiles: Their Ecology, Management, and Conservation"
    also
    "
    A CROCODILE'S NATURAL HABITAT"

    A Crocodile's Natural Habitat | Animals - PawNation
    Burrow Habitat

    American crocodiles dig burrow systems that provide an alternative refuge and resting place in case water levels are too low to offer cover. The entry to the burrow is usually camouflaged as it is built partly or completely underwater. The burrow may be quite shallow, perhaps only 2 feet below ground, according to the University of Michigan Museum of Zoology's Animal Diversity Web.
    So my "what-if" is more valid and supported than your attempt at saying "they turned to steel until the food repopulated" because that has never happened in any animal, yet burrowing and submerging behaviours is well known.

    Now move on please.
    This is a science forum, so it is required of you to support your opinion with backing data.

    You have implicitly stated that you do not think plesiosaurs when extinct in the K-T event. Now support it.

    One modern species shows some burrowing, the majority of the group does not, and the large fully aquatic members that lived in the Cretaceous did not survive the event. So your assertion of water protection is needing much more.

    Also how did so many of the avian group members survive but the burrowing dinosaur genera not?

    How did the large turtle members survive?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    OK, I wanted to give you a Christmas present but I couldn't find Brock Biology of Microorganisms in pdf.

    I think that the only chapters that would be relevant in this discussion are Ch. 9 ("Viruses and Virology"), Ch. 16 ("Microbial Evolution") and Ch. 21 ("Viral Diversity") (in the 13th Ed.). After all, the focus of "Brock Biology of Microorganisms" is more on Bacteria.


    PS: Thank you for the study you have provided. It seems interesting and the figures look very helpful.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Well, since I've had my intoxicated abreaction already, I'm a more amiable. You probably didn't read the questions I asked you cause they got deleted. (They were probably too nice.)

    Anyway, you ask me what I think? Ultimately, I think you're more concerned that microorganisms on the planet Mercury migrated to Earth some how.

    I really don't know what else to say.
    I'm going to leave the answering of that up to NASA or the Chinese depending on who lands on the ice filled craters first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What am I saying that is so wrong AlexG? You must have some reason for a comment like that or are you just harping on about the troubles of our past and not being able to let it go and move on?

    Personally I'd prefer if you just stayed away from this thread unless you are willing to contribute something relevant to the biological sciences.
    Discuss viruses, evolution, virolution and life please.
    Can you stop with the made up words.
    I'll wait and see what John and Kalster say. All words are made up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What contradictory evidence do you have for plesiosaurs living past the impact 66 million years ago? ( 66mya is the currently agreed on end of the Cretaceous)

    yes it is , they are using Dinosaur in the highly vernacular sense and not in any way a taxonomic sense.

    There is absolutely no evidence of burrowing in any of the Crocodylomorph clades, your "what-if" is as valid and supported as saying they turned to steel until the food repopulated. So no we are not moving on.
    I never said I had "contradictory evidence" that "plesiosaurs living past the impact 66 million years ago". It was an opinion.

    We need to move on. Crocodiles lay eggs underground that in itself is a form of "burrowing". And They can hold their breath underwater so that would be an advantage in a flash fire situation. Burrowing or submerging were the options I first proposed as protection.

    Read about burrowing crocodiles!
    "Crocodiles: Their Ecology, Management, and Conservation"
    also
    "
    A CROCODILE'S NATURAL HABITAT"

    A Crocodile's Natural Habitat | Animals - PawNation
    Burrow Habitat

    American crocodiles dig burrow systems that provide an alternative refuge and resting place in case water levels are too low to offer cover. The entry to the burrow is usually camouflaged as it is built partly or completely underwater. The burrow may be quite shallow, perhaps only 2 feet below ground, according to the University of Michigan Museum of Zoology's Animal Diversity Web.
    So my "what-if" is more valid and supported than your attempt at saying "they turned to steel until the food repopulated" because that has never happened in any animal, yet burrowing and submerging behaviours is well known.

    Now move on please.
    This is a science forum, so it is required of you to support your opinion with backing data.

    You have implicitly stated that you do not think plesiosaurs when extinct in the K-T event. Now support it.

    One modern species shows some burrowing, the majority of the group does not, and the large fully aquatic members that lived in the Cretaceous did not survive the event. So your assertion of water protection is needing much more.

    Also how did so many of the avian group members survive but the burrowing dinosaur genera not?

    How did the large turtle members survive?
    These questions are not in my field of interest nor relevant to the discussion of whether or how viruses drive evolution.
    But could the turtles have only survived via the buried unhatched eggs? For I was thinking what sort event would a burrowed or buried or submerged animal be protected from? The only idea that came up was flash fire. Did the birds have buried nesting sites as well? It is not so hard to imagine birds in the air being able to out-fly a fire storm.
    But all these questions, it is not up to me to offer any real answers, for you could end up just keeping on asking good questions but completely off the topic, and bog me down forever.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 21st, 2013 at 09:14 PM.
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    You are the one that made the initial assertions regarding the K-T extinctions and size favoritism. There was a hell of a lot more going in the even then just a day/week long firestorm.

    "Virolution" is a bullshit term that has no defined biological meaning. This has been shown to you multiple times in this thread. You refuse to acknowledge that.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Robbitty, you are as bad as Realitycheck was. You are simply full of feces and it oozes out of your orifices.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    After all, the focus of "Brock Biology of Microorganisms" is more on Bacteria.
    I have little to go on.

    It's a university text book I've barely read a paragraph of. I have the 12th edition and it scares me to look at some of the pictures of microbial diseases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You are the one that made the initial assertions regarding the K-T extinctions and size favoritism. There was a hell of a lot more going in the even then just a day/week long firestorm.

    "Virolution" is a bullshit term that has no defined biological meaning. This has been shown to you multiple times in this thread. You refuse to acknowledge that.
    Oh for sure, and each and every one of those life threatening situations had to be survived, but I was trying to identify the one that could have favoured the majority of the species that survived. I took a guess based on what I had read about what happen immediately and for years thereafter. Like if you could submerge or burrow and hold your breath for an hour you might have an advantage to survive an inferno.
    It is just a thought. I could be right or wrong. Certainly there would have been situations where other species survived without having this. Maybe we will never know what is needed to survive an impact like that.

    As far as virolution goes I am in discussion with Prof Villarreal and will make up my own mind as time goes on thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Robbitty, you are as bad as Realitycheck was. You are simply full of feces and it oozes out of your orifices.
    Not to totally agree with you entirely, but I did have an embarrassing incident yesterday that fitted that exact description. How did you know?
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    This article has an interest grabbing title "Interactions Between Species: Powerful Driving Force Behind Evolution?"
    Interactions between species: Powerful driving force behind evolution?
    What else does it say?

    Feb. 25, 2010 — Scientists at the University of Liverpool have provided the first experimental evidence that shows that evolution is driven most powerfully by interactions between species, rather than adaptation to the environment.
    It doesn't quite support the hypothesis being questioned in this thread unless it could shown that the bacterial adaptation involved the inclusion of genetic material from another virus or bacteriophage by transduction.
    What changes did the bacteria make? Were the changes genetic or epigenetic? (Epigenetic effects could alter the shape of bacterium and/or position of receptors) or were there new proteins developed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    I have the 12th edition and it scares me to look at some of the pictures of microbial diseases.

    I second that. Hence I did not opt for becoming a doctor.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  80. #180  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You are the one that made the initial assertions regarding the K-T extinctions and size favoritism. There was a hell of a lot more going in the even then just a day/week long firestorm.

    "Virolution" is a bullshit term that has no defined biological meaning. This has been shown to you multiple times in this thread. You refuse to acknowledge that.
    Oh for sure, and each and every one of those life threatening situations had to be survived, but I was trying to identify the one that could have favoured the majority of the species that survived. I took a guess based on what I had read about what happen immediately and for years thereafter. Like if you could submerge or burrow and hold your breath for an hour you might have an advantage to survive an inferno.
    It is just a thought. I could be right or wrong. Certainly there would have been situations where other species survived without having this. Maybe we will never know what is needed to survive an impact like that.

    As far as virolution goes I am in discussion with Prof Villarreal and will make up my own mind as time goes on thanks.
    it was a global extinction event, with multiple causes. There is no one trait that every group which survived all had/did.

    "you are in discussion"? you mean you sent an email to which they have not responded. Even if they do, it has not been used in peer-reviewed literature, and thus is useless in biological discussions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    This article has an interest grabbing title "Interactions Between Species: Powerful Driving Force Behind Evolution?"
    Interactions between species: Powerful driving force behind evolution?
    What else does it say?

    Feb. 25, 2010 — Scientists at the University of Liverpool have provided the first experimental evidence that shows that evolution is driven most powerfully by interactions between species, rather than adaptation to the environment.
    It doesn't quite support the hypothesis being questioned in this thread unless it could shown that the bacterial adaptation involved the inclusion of genetic material from another virus or bacteriophage by transduction.
    What changes did the bacteria make? Were the changes genetic or epigenetic? (Epigenetic effects could alter the shape of bacterium and/or position of receptors) or were there new proteins developed?
    Did you read ANY further then just the title and opening line of the abstract at all?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    This article has an interest grabbing title "Interactions Between Species: Powerful Driving Force Behind Evolution?"
    Interactions between species: Powerful driving force behind evolution?
    What else does it say?

    Feb. 25, 2010 — Scientists at the University of Liverpool have provided the first experimental evidence that shows that evolution is driven most powerfully by interactions between species, rather than adaptation to the environment.
    It doesn't quite support the hypothesis being questioned in this thread unless it could shown that the bacterial adaptation involved the inclusion of genetic material from another virus or bacteriophage by transduction.
    What changes did the bacteria make? Were the changes genetic or epigenetic? (Epigenetic effects could alter the shape of bacterium and/or position of receptors) or were there new proteins developed?
    Did you read ANY further then just the title and opening line of the abstract at all?
    Yes, but it doesn't mention transduction or insertion but only evolution, so we don't know the mechanism of the evolution nor how much or what effectively was the differences in the viruses.
    Public release date: 25-Feb-2010
    [ Print | E-mail Share
    ] [ Close Window ]

    Contact: Samantha Martin
    samantha.martin@liv.ac.uk
    01-517-942-248
    University of Liverpool
    Scientists reveal driving force behind evolution

    The team observed viruses as they evolved over hundreds of generations to infect bacteria. They found that when the bacteria could evolve defences, the viruses evolved at a quicker rate and generated greater diversity, compared to situations where the bacteria were unable to adapt to the viral infection.
    The study shows, for the first time, that the American evolutionary biologist Leigh Van Valen was correct in his 'Red Queen Hypothesis'. The theory, first put forward in the 1970s, was named after a passage in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass in which the Red Queen tells Alice, 'It takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place'. This suggested that species were in a constant race for survival and have to continue to evolve new ways of defending themselves throughout time.
    Dr Steve Paterson, from the University's School of Biosciences, explains: "Historically, it was assumed that most evolution was driven by a need to adapt to the environment or habitat. The Red Queen Hypothesis challenged this by pointing out that actually most natural selection will arise from co-evolutionary interactions with other species, not from interactions with the environment.
    "This suggested that evolutionary change was created by 'tit-for-tat' adaptations by species in constant combat. This theory is widely accepted in the science community, but this is the first time we have been able to show evidence of it in an experiment with living things."
    Dr Michael Brockhurst said: "We used fast-evolving viruses so that we could observe hundreds of generations of evolution. We found that for every viral strategy of attack, the bacteria would adapt to defend itself, which triggered an endless cycle of co-evolutionary change. We compared this with evolution against a fixed target, by disabling the bacteria's ability to adapt to the virus.
    "These experiments showed us that co-evolutionary interactions between species result in more genetically diverse populations, compared to instances where the host was not able to adapt to the parasite. The virus was also able to evolve twice as quickly when the bacteria were allowed to evolve alongside it."
    The team used high-throughput DNA sequencing technology at the Centre for Genomic Research to sequence thousands of virus genomes. The next stage of the research is to understand how co-evolution differs when interacting species help, rather than harm, one another.
    ###

    The research is published in Nature and was supported by funding from the Natural Environment Research Council (NERC); the Wellcome Trust; the European Research Council and the Leverhulme Trust.
    Notes to editors:
    1. The University of Liverpool is a member of the Russell Group of leading research-intensive institutions in the UK. It attracts collaborative and contract research commissions from a wide range of national and international organisations valued at more than 93 million annually.

    So what does this mean? "They found that when the bacteria could evolve defences, the viruses evolved at a quicker rate and generated greater diversity, compared to situations where the bacteria were unable to adapt to the viral infection.

    How did they stop the bacteria evolving? Did the evolved defenses originate from virus assisted "transduction" or "specialized transduction"?
    It could be the difference between mono-culture or mixed colonies of bacteria. I see on the sources document is an email address so I might ask for access to the paper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    "you are in discussion"? you mean you sent an email to which they have not responded. Even if they do, it has not been used in peer-reviewed literature, and thus is useless in biological discussions.
    There was a further email and an offer to me. I have asked the mods whether I can post the second email and they haven't replied yet, so it feels like "Yes", but I'll wait a little longer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    OK, I wanted to give you a Christmas present but I couldn't find Brock Biology of Microorganisms in pdf.

    I may be cheap and the link may have been posted before, however, it's the thought that counts.

    The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells
    That was a very helpful link
    A brief natural history of viral genes

    Sequence analysis of viral proteins reveals several categories of virus genes that markedly differ in their provenance. The optimal granularity of classification might be subject to debate but at least 5 classes that can be assorted into three larger categories seem to be readily distinguishable.
    Genes with readily detectable homologs in cellular life forms
    1. Genes with closely related homologs in cellular organisms (typically, the host of the given virus) present in a narrow group of viruses.
    2. Genes that are conserved within a major group of viruses or even several groups and have relatively distant cellular homologs.
    Virus-specific genes
    3. ORFans, i.e., genes without detectable homologs except, possibly, in closely related viruses.
    4. Virus-specific genes that are conserved in a (relatively) broad group of viruses but have no detectable homologs in cellular life forms.
    Viral hallmark genes
    5. Genes shared by many diverse groups of viruses, with only distant homologs in cellular organisms, and with strong indications of monophyly of all viral members of the respective gene families, – we would like to coin the phrase "viral hallmark genes" to denote these genes that can be viewed as distinguishing characters of the "virus state".
    It is the genes in this section that are of particular interest and relevance to this thread:
    Genes with readily detectable homologs in cellular life forms

    1. Genes with closely related homologs in cellular organisms (typically, the host of the given virus) present in a narrow group of viruses.

    2. Genes that are conserved within a major group of viruses or even several groups and have relatively distant cellular homologs.
    Now from the previous article (Interactions between species: Powerful driving force behind evolution?) based on scientific study the genetics of the virus precedes the cellular organism so it might be proposed that it is the virus that evolved these genes using the cells, rather than the cells evolving the genes independently of the viruses.
    Then these viral genes are used by the host species after a transduction type transfer. (The fact that the virus and the host share closely related homologs suggests to me it does happen.)
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 19th, 2013 at 08:22 PM.
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    Still waiting for you to support your assertions regarding the K-T extinction.....


    And none of what you posted says anything about transfer of genes between a virus and the host multicellular animal.

    YOu "feel its related" is STILL not an acceptable science answer.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Still waiting for you to support your assertions regarding the K-T extinction.....


    And none of what you posted says anything about transfer of genes between a virus and the host multicellular animal.

    YOu "feel its related" is STILL not an acceptable science answer.
    Transfer = viral infection.
    If the homologous genes are found in both the host and the virus how do you think they got there? It doesn't take too much imagination to realize that the virus is the reason for that. The mere fact that a virus infects a host cell and the way the infection occurs implies the viral DNA is inserted into the host cell DNA, So 99% of the mechanism is there.


    (This thread was started in the "New Hypotheses" subforum because I was going to propose that host cell gets whole genes supplied to them from the infecting viruses. I think that hypothesis is supported by the evidence shown so far even if the exact method of transfer has not yet been studied.
    For it is either a new hypothesis or and one that has already been proposed by someone else. I'm getting to think that "New Hypotheses" is really a subforum where we discuss new hypotheses proposed by other scientists.)

    I will start another thread to discuss "Still waiting for you to support your assertions regarding the K-T extinction....." It is an unrelated issue as far as I can see.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 20th, 2013 at 01:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    These questions are not in my field of interest nor relevant to the discussion of whether or how viruses drive evolution.
    But could the turtles have only survived via the buried unhatched eggs? For I was thinking what sort event would a burrowed or buried or submerged animal be protected from? The only idea that came up was flash fire. Did the birds have buried nesting sites as well. It is hard to imagine birds in the air being able to out-fly a fire storm.
    What the hell?

    Do you just keep pulling crap out of your backside?

    Do you even know why certain animals bury their eggs?

    Turtles do not guard their eggs and they need to incubate in a safe environment and be camouflaged. So laying them in pit they dig out and then camouflage them allows them to incubate in even temperatures where they won't dry out and where the eggs are protected from predators.

    But because they are unable to remain on the beach to guard their eggs from predators, so the eggs are buried in the sand and remain camouflaged from predators, to give her eggs and thus her offspring, the better chance at survival. And being air breathing animals, she cannot lay them in the water because they start breathing air while still in their eggs. It's not because of a flash fire, you dolt. And you claim to be a vet.

    But all these questions, it is not up to me to offer any real answers, for you could end up just keeping on asking good questions but completely off the topic, and bog me down forever.
    Don't worry, you have enough silliness to keep yourself bogged down forever.

    This article has an interest grabbing title "Interactions Between Species: Powerful Driving Force Behind Evolution?"
    Interactions between species: Powerful driving force behind evolution?
    What else does it say?
    Did you read the rest of the article and understand it?

    If species did not evolve to adapt, then they would perish. This was also provided to you earlier when it was pointed out to you that the viral DNA we have would have been important to help our ancestors adapt and evolve. Which you discounted I might add.

    It doesn't quite support the hypothesis being questioned in this thread unless it could shown that the bacterial adaptation involved the inclusion of genetic material from another virus or bacteriophage by transduction.
    What changes did the bacteria make? Were the changes genetic or epigenetic? (Epigenetic effects could alter the shape of bacterium and/or position of receptors) or were there new proteins developed?
    Yes, but it doesn't mention transduction or insertion but only evolution, so we don't know the mechanism of the evolution nor how much or what effectively was the differences in the viruses.


    You shouldn't be allowed to post anything pertaining to science on any site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    These questions are not in my field of interest nor relevant to the discussion of whether or how viruses drive evolution.
    Yes, but it doesn't mention transduction or insertion but only evolution, so we don't know the mechanism of the evolution nor how much or what effectively was the differences in the viruses.


    You .....
    you seem to have misunderstood the points I was making and I don't want to have to repeat them sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    This article has an interest grabbing title "Interactions Between Species: Powerful Driving Force Behind Evolution?"
    Interactions between species: Powerful driving force behind evolution?
    ...
    If species did not evolve to adapt, then they would perish. This was also provided to you earlier when it was pointed out to you that the viral DNA we have would have been important to help our ancestors adapt and evolve. Which you discounted I might add.

    It doesn't quite support the hypothesis being questioned in this thread unless it could shown that the bacterial adaptation involved the inclusion of genetic material from another virus or bacteriophage by transduction.
    What changes did the bacteria make? Were the changes genetic or epigenetic? (Epigenetic effects could alter the shape of bacterium and/or position of receptors) or were there new proteins developed?
    Yes, but it doesn't mention transduction or insertion but only evolution, so we don't know the mechanism of the evolution nor how much or what effectively was the differences in the viruses.


    You ......
    they were only measuring evolution from the changes to the DNA in the viruses weren't they. And the viruses were infecting bacteria so until I see the whole study I don't want to comment further re that experiment.
    I understand adapting to the environment etc, but what is becoming clearer is that the changes to the host DNA are changes largely assisted by viruses. I haven't got the entire picture clear yet but I have tried to explain it as much as I know at present. I will wait to see what Luis Villarreal sends me in the New year.
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    A group of single celled entities(organisms?) driving the evolution of another group of single celled organisms is not evidence for DNA transmutation by viruses in multicellular organisms.

    Can you tell us what basic multicellular reproductive feature found in complex sexually reproducing organisms would prevent the type of manipulation you are asserting?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    A group of single celled entities(organisms?) driving the evolution of another group of single celled organisms is not evidence for DNA transmutation by viruses in multicellular organisms.

    Can you tell us what basic multicellular reproductive feature found in complex sexually reproducing organisms would prevent the type of manipulation you are asserting?
    Well that is what I want to discover, for it would be disastrous IMO if this manipulation was made impossible in MCO. I don't know off the top of my head what feature you are talking about just at the moment, but please mention it and I'll consider it.

    Why do you think it forbids viral infection of the germinal tissue? Please discuss.
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    Let me edit my post number 97 with a bit of red

    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Still waiting, Robi. How do viruses effect evolution of multicellular organisms? You said Villarreal, and Ryan proposed that viruses drive the evolution in multicellular organisms and they back up their claims. You asked in the original post if viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms, so of course, you must know what they said.


    Are you ignoring me?


    BTW Who said "Virolution" was a text book and not just a non-fiction book?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Let me edit my post number 97 with a bit of red

    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Still waiting, Robi. How do viruses effect evolution of multicellular organisms? You said Villarreal, and Ryan proposed that viruses drive the evolution in multicellular organisms and they back up their claims. You asked in the original post if viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms, so of course, you must know what they said.


    Are you ignoring me?


    BTW Who said "Virolution" was a text book and not just a non-fiction book?
    I have already answered you Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?.

    Till I read the book "Virolution" it may either be a text book or a non-fiction book. Tranquille has read it so maybe you should be asking her not me. I do not know the book other than its name and the name of its author.
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    No, you didn't answer me. Beating around the bush is not an answer.

    You shouldn't have said that they had backed up their claims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    No, you didn't answer me. Beating around the bush is not an answer.

    You shouldn't have said that they had backed up their claims.
    Show me the post where I say this please.
    Luis villarreal has sent me a PDF document with 50 or so references that they use to back up their claims. I am not supporting their claims but I could share the PDF with you if you want it. But I would need instructions on how to attach it to a PM, or send me your email address.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; December 20th, 2013 at 09:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post

    How about you ..... actually back up your claims?
    I haven't made any claims yet. I am just trying to answer the question "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?" Professor Villarreal, and Dr.Frank Ryan have proposed they do and back up their claims. I have even attempted to find articles that refute their work but I haven't found any yet.

    OK?
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  97. #197  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Let me edit my post number 97 with a bit of red

    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Still waiting, Robi. How do viruses effect evolution of multicellular organisms? You said Villarreal, and Ryan proposed that viruses drive the evolution in multicellular organisms and they back up their claims. You asked in the original post if viruses drive the evolution of multicellular organisms, so of course, you must know what they said.


    Are you ignoring me?


    BTW Who said "Virolution" was a text book and not just a non-fiction book?
    I have already answered you Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?.

    Till I read the book "Virolution" it may either be a text book or a non-fiction book. Tranquille has read it so maybe you should be asking her not me. I do not know the book other than its name and the name of its author.
    Then until such time, stop F*cking referencing the damn thing, you have absolutely no clue what its about, and yet you are adamant that it supports your bullshit concepts.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post

    How about you ..... actually back up your claims?
    I haven't made any claims yet. I am just trying to answer the question "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?" Professor Villarreal, and Dr.Frank Ryan have proposed they do and back up their claims. I have even attempted to find articles that refute their work but I haven't found any yet.

    OK?
    See above post #195
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  99. #199  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    A group of single celled entities(organisms?) driving the evolution of another group of single celled organisms is not evidence for DNA transmutation by viruses in multicellular organisms.

    Can you tell us what basic multicellular reproductive feature found in complex sexually reproducing organisms would prevent the type of manipulation you are asserting?
    Well that is what I want to discover, for it would be disastrous IMO if this manipulation was made impossible in MCO. I don't know off the top of my head what feature you are talking about just at the moment, but please mention it and I'll consider it.

    Why do you think it forbids viral infection of the germinal tissue? Please discuss.
    What is there more to discover? How many times to we have to spoon feed you the answers before you understand your concept does not hold water.

    I WILL NOT supply the basic biological answer that you should already have from any level of study into biology that is High school or above. I have asked you to supply that answer and will keep asking until you do.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post

    How about you ..... actually back up your claims?
    I haven't made any claims yet. I am just trying to answer the question "Do Viruses drive Evolution in Multicellular organisms?" Professor Villarreal, and Dr.Frank Ryan have proposed they do and back up their claims. I have even attempted to find articles that refute their work but I haven't found any yet.
    OK?
    See above post #195
    Read the bolded sentence that YOU originally posted, B-W/S has provided exactly what you asked for, now answer the questions posed by B-W/S
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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