and will back-tracking to infinity show us the origin of time?
(i know we cant get those information. if you mind, dont remind me im saying it here xD)
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Not in detail because of chaos theory (makes prediction of deterministic systems impossible) and quantum uncertainty (menas the universe is not deterministic).
But in general terms, yes. See also: big bang theory.
Yes, the universe is not deterministic, but by back-tracking, we will know the origin of acasual events, e.g.(backtracking viewing all the energy regions... etc. till the point where the energy released by the muons come back to form a muon)
and i need to take some time soon to read up on Chaos theory.
someone gave me a link on a website on chaos theory and i dont understand that website, could you/someone kindly help me find one?
i dont know where to start finding, and im afraid i would spend hours reading crackpot ones..![]()
i've read about chaos theory. i understand most parts, but some details are too complex for me.
now, i still dont get why chaos theory makes the prediction of deterministic systems impossible.
it will get more and more harder to predict as time passes. but when will it get to: impossible to predict?
The universe is a chaotic system.
The deterministic part applies to the basic "information".
Why do you say that the universe isn't purely deterministic?
deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.
The initial conditions of the universe were "fixed" (i.e. they were what they were) - any behaviour AFTER the start arises FROM those conditions - ergo the universe is, in the strict meaning of the word, deterministic.
Ho hum, which part of "The initial conditions of the universe were "fixed"" did you miss?
The UNIVERSE, as a whole is deterministic BECAUSE the initial conditions were set.
Anything AFTER the start is chaotic - cannot be predicted 1.
1 Although this applies to different things with different degrees of un/ certainty.
No.
You're so funny.
I suggest you go find out what the word "proof" means and how it's used in science.
You appear to be assuming that the presence of chaos somehow precludes, or at least severly militates against, life.If it was so chaotic how do you function in it. Please substantiate your statement.
Don't make facile assumptions.
Indirectly: the initial conditions of the universe dictated what came after.
At the moment of creation 1.
Not "before" because there was no before.
Everything that has happened since the BB is a "consequence" of those initial conditions - yes, I know that's verging on tautological.
1 Admittedly a rather spread out "moment", since, as I understand it, things could have gone in one of a number of different ways. I'm not sure we'll ever know exactly why it turned out the way it did.
So, space-time does not exist before the big bang?
I thought our universe was a space-time only, void from matter and energy from start of infinity-eternity, (refer. milne model), and at one point of time, big bang appeared (refer. quantum fluctuations).
and you say that space-time don't exist before the big bang?
which part did i understand wrongly?
Since the milne model shows that the universe can exist without energy/matter, and the material universe is made of matter/energy, and this material universe is created by the big bang, which is a quantum fluctuation, why do we say that time cannot exist before this quantum fluctuation appeared?
No.
I'm completely at a loss to understand what you mean by the first part, the Milne Model isn't valid, and how can there be quantum fluctuations 1 when there's no space time, no matter, no energy? In order for there to be quantum fluctuations there has to be a universe...I thought our universe was a space-time only, void from matter and energy from start of infinity-eternity, (refer. milne model), and at one point of time, big bang appeared (refer. quantum fluctuations).
Since time didn't start until the BB itself, then any use of the word "before" is meaningless.which part did i understand wrongly?Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
1 You do seem to have latched on to this term, and you also appear to post it as if it's an "explanation" for any number of things.
if it isn't valid, why do other forumers use in as support for explainations?
Thread here, post #29
So matter and energy exists before the big bang occured?
In essence you'd need a perfectly duplicate universe to the subatomic level of detail to do as you suggest.
Lots of things are not predictable by looking back even if you have good current information. Say for example you know with absolute precision how a goose feather landed on your head--it's velocity, it's position etc. How high was the goose that lost the feather? How fast was it going? In what direction? It's age? See the problem?
You ask for proof and you want everything to be substantiated, but you make these wild assumptions and inaccuracies. You make the people who know what they are talking about look stupid.
What are you talking about? Before the big bang there were preconditions, from what? What do you mean by no time and space, what is space?
Show one, please.
Show one, please.and inaccuracies.
Really?You make the people who know what they are talking about look stupid.
If they actually knew what they were talking about couldn't they simply, er, SHOW that they know, and thereby make me look stupid?
Um, again:Before the big bang there were preconditions
Since time didn't start until the BB itself, then any use of the word "before" is meaningless.
You said it, you do look stupid. I really am not looking for empty conversation, and I really do not think we can conduct one so please lets move on.
Thanks a lot for the not so good connection. Sometimes some people just cannot make conversation, especially when one think they know it all such as you. Take care.
Really?
Have you shown my "wild assumptions" or "inaccuracies" yet?
Or was that false accusation sparked by pique?
I agree. False accusations don't contribute to the conversation at all.I really am not looking for empty conversation, and I really do not think we can conduct one so please lets move on.
You misunderstand. It's the refusal to reason that's stopping the progress of this thread. Please try.Sometimes some people just cannot make conversation, especially when one think they know it all such as you.
people skills baby
people skills
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