Thread: Wow!! Telekinesis actually works!

My hearbeat is out of control right now, I'm totally freaked out!
Okay.. so I've been looking into Telekinesis lately and I thought I'd give it a go, so I folded a piece of paper to resemble a pyramid and balanced it on top of a nail. Then I started staring at it, visualising it move. I tried different things in my head but nothing seemed to work (I've read about some different techniques on the subject). After about 30 minutes I was near giving up when all of the sudden the paper started rotating! And It wasn't wind or anything, the way it moved, it looked so.. I dont know, stable and regulated. There couldn't have been wind either, my room is completely sealed off and the paper hadn't been moving a single bit in a half hour. Anyway, I freeeaked out! And when i did, it stopped rotating.. holy crap, I'm shaking right now, never thought telekinesis would actually work!! This is freaky..

Of course, I understand if you don't belive me, I would have a hard time beliving it too. I just wanted to get that off my chest.. there's no way I'm telling my friends about this, they'll think I've gone completely insane, hehe..

(Sorry about my english)

Sorry, put a glass over it and see if you can still do it.

I will try that.

Originally Posted by davedave

My hearbeat is out of control right now, I'm totally freaked out!
Okay.. so I've been looking into Telekinesis lately and I thought I'd give it a go, so I folded a piece of paper to resemble a pyramid and balanced it on top of a nail. Then I started staring at it, visualising it move.

Someone has been looking at psipog. Visualization? Hah, don't get me started on the issues with it. Not to mention the fact a piece of paper is easily disturbed by air of any type (I should know as I've conducted similar experiments). Put it under glass, and do not touch the glass because it can be vulnerable to movement due to temperature changes. Then you have to take into account how level it is (if what you set it on isn't level it can move), make sure there are no tremors (some floors are weak enough to wobble with movement), etc.

I'll stress the stupidity of visualization (See: imagination) later.

I tried different things in my head but nothing seemed to work (I've read about some different techniques on the subject). After about 30 minutes I was near giving up when all of the sudden the paper started rotating! And It wasn't wind or anything, the way it moved, it looked so.. I dont know, stable and regulated. There couldn't have been wind either, my room is completely sealed off and the paper hadn't been moving a single bit in a half hour. Anyway, I freeeaked out! And when i did, it stopped rotating.. holy crap, I'm shaking right now, never thought telekinesis would actually work!! This is freaky..

Your doubt has inconvinienced me for the last time! *force chokes*

But to be serious, even a small temperature change around it can cause movement. If it was heated up then some cool air in the room came in, or visa versa, it'd cause it to move. As for those "techniques" they're normally written by imbeciles who like DBZ/naruto too much (psipog is rampant with this lately) and are highly unscientific. I'd advise you use a bit of skepticism.

Of course, I understand if you don't belive me, I would have a hard time beliving it too. I just wanted to get that off my chest.. there's no way I'm telling my friends about this, they'll think I've gone completely insane, hehe..

Oh sure. While I'm at it why don't I tell people I can do the same thing. Same effect, nobody believes me and a video can easily be forged. I know of numerous ways to stabilize the movement of a simple piece of paper without it appearing jerky. Further study in this area is suggested.

thats nothing, telekenisis doesnt work. if you had it on your finger you can (without your own knowledge) rotating your finger (so little your eyes cant see it) and cause it to rotate, for that to be accepteble proof you need to not touch it, be inside a lead container and still cause to rotate at your command

Zelos: I didnt have the paper on my finger, I had it on a nail/spike. Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the paper rotated at the direction I wanted it to.

Originally Posted by davedave

Zelos: I didnt have the paper on my finger, I had it on a nail/spike. Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the paper rotated at the direction I wanted it to.

Yes you did say that you had it on a nail in your original. You may have come across the 'psi wheel' effect which is well explained. If you can do it under a glass, and change the direction of spin at will, there is a $1.5M prize.

Originally Posted by Zelos

thats nothing, telekenisis doesnt work. if you had it on your finger you can (without your own knowledge) rotating your finger (so little your eyes cant see it) and cause it to rotate, for that to be accepteble proof you need to not touch it, be inside a lead container and still cause to rotate at your command

Zelos, you remind me of a theist.

Atheist: "What if your god doesn't exist?"
Theist: "He does exist"
Atheist: "Hypothetically though, what if he didn't?"
Theist: "But he does exist"
Atheist: "Well simulate an instance where, hypothetically your beliefs were wrong, and god didn't exist"
Theist: "That's impossible because god does exist"
Atheist: "...lets try this again...what if it was proved god didn't exist?"
Theist: "You can't prove to me god doesn't exist"
Atheist: "I know but hypothetically what if it was proven beyond all reasonable doubt and it was impossible to disagree?"
Theist: "That's impossible because you can't prove he doesn't exist to me"
Atheist: "AAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH *rips out hair*"

The above is an actual conversation, although rephrased a bit. That is basically how numerous theists tend to act. also, incidentally, how you're acting towards the possibility Zelos.

I'm wondering how the OP can state "it wasn't the wind." What controls were in place to ensure that air pressure was constant? It doesn't take much change in air pressure to create enough current to move a light piece of paper balanced on a small point. Merely changing body position could create the current.

Nothing mysterious here. No telekinesis either.

Jeremyhfht, i´ll belive in phsyckic shit but not until its proven until then its crackpotswho belive in it and frauds who use it to trick crackpots to give them money

btw, if you honestly belive in this crap why not make some money? there is a prize to get if you can do something under controlled conditions that is phsychic. Guess what? no one have claimed the prize yet. Guesss why? becuase its bullshit. Science has determend it to not be possible by testings

i was wondering how long till someone mentioned religion

Originally Posted by davedave

Zelos: I didnt have the paper on my finger, I had it on a nail/spike. Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the paper rotated at the direction I wanted it to.

Funny that, we used to keep the paper on a nail, before we used it.

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the paper rotated at the direction I wanted it to.

Which means that there was a one in two chance it would do so.

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

i was wondering how long till someone mentioned religion

Well yeah. It's perfect for this discussion

btw, if you honestly belive in this crap why not make some money? there is a prize to get if you can do something under controlled conditions that is phsychic. Guess what? no one have claimed the prize yet. Guesss why? becuase its bullshit. Science has determend it to not be possible by testings

I'm like, what, 16. I don't even have the funds to *DRIVE* to any testing centers. Aside from that I've made no claim as to ability, so why do you assume I practice it to begin with? Staring at a piece of paper all day is boring and useless, even if one wishes to accomplish "telekinetics".

Secondly, those tests will always fail.
Know why?
"I'll give you X amount of dollars if you prove to me something exists" doesn't work because you have to "prove" to another person something exists, which is impossible. You could probably lift cars over a persons head with your mind and he'd say "must be the wind".

As another criticism is that those testing centers automatically refuse certain things. for example a piece of paper on some stand, even with a glass over it, can be moved by an outside source. They'd require further testing and even the most impossible and obvious "I call bullshit" video's I've seen probably wouldn't pass.

Third there is the "government uses as secret weapon" effect I explained before.

Originally Posted by Zelos

Jeremyhfht, i´ll belive in phsyckic shit but not until its proven until then its crackpotswho belive in it and frauds who use it to trick crackpots to give them money

As Jeremy rather eloquently demonstrated (with considerable diplomacy) you have a closed mind. It is more firmly shut and sealed than the room in which davedave conducted his experiment. You wont even entertain the possibility that psychic phenomena might exist.

Davedave, if you have a completely sealed room I take it you were inside a bank vault? A fallout shelter? A biohazard area?

You wont even entertain the possibility that psychic phenomena might exist

i will when i see somekinda evidence that has any credibility by people who dont honestly belive in it but seem to get results that can indicate them. as science work. it doesnt exist until proven existing.

also i want a explination how it would be biological possible.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Davedave, if you have a completely sealed room I take it you were inside a bank vault? A fallout shelter? A biohazard area?

The sealed nature of the room is irrelevant. It could be a hermetically sealed glass container, but unless the experiment was conducted in vacuum, there are any number of ways that micro-vortices could have been started from reaching into the container to set the experiment to simply scratching one's brow or shifting one's weight in a chair.

Everyone reading this can do this simple experiment: wet you lips with your tongue then slowly move your hand in front of your face. You'll feel a cold sensation as the hand passes. That's a micro-vortex that. Wind.

Then we're left only with the experimenter's desired direction of the pinwheel's travel. There are only two. I wish I could get one-in-two chances at the state lotto when I wanted it. I'd not go off to work today.

Originally Posted by SkinWalker

The sealed nature of the room is irrelevant.

I agree. But the claim that it was sealed is not irrelevant.
By making this claim (assuming it was not a bank vault, or similar) davedave has demonstrated that he does not have a good grasp of how difficult it is to have a perfectly sealed room. That in turns calls into question his grasp of experimental method, which raises even more questions about the validity of his experiment.

davedave, I applaud you for attempting the experiment. What you ought to do now is tighten up the experimental conditions - isolated chamber; constant humidity, illumination and temperature; rigid placement.

My own rudimentary experiments in telekinesis were conducted several decades ago. I was a little more ambituous. I attempted to move an empty flower vase from its position on a shelf, approximately 2" from the edge. I stared at that sucker for several hours over a period of days, but to no effect.
Then a day or two later I went into the room and saw the vase lying on the floor broken. I still haven't figured that one out. 8)

Science exists to explain phenomina, to give explanation to our physical world. Telekinesis is not an observed phenomina it does not need a description by science. If and when anyone can demonstrate movement of matter by the power of mind only, then science will discover it's secret and all will be revealed. The basic test is to cause some small discernible amount of matter to rise from a surface, describe a 'figure-of-eight' and then return to it's starting point.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Telekinesis is not an observed phenomina it does not need a description by science.

Certain people claim to have observed it. If it did exist it merits investigation by science. If people claim to have observed it, then it may exist. Ergo, it may merit scientific investigation.

Many people claimed to have seen rocks fall from the sky. Science declared this was impossible. Today many people base their entire career on the study of such rocks.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Telekinesis is not an observed phenomina it does not need a description by science.

Certain people claim to have observed it. If it did exist it merits investigation by science. If people claim to have observed it, then it may exist. Ergo, it may merit scientific investigation.

Many people claimed to have seen rocks fall from the sky. Science declared this was impossible. Today many people base their entire career on the study of such rocks.

To date there are NO cases of of observed telekinesis. IF a person says 'I saw it' it is not the job of science to prove they did not see it, otherwise, I could say "my cat flew of it's own accord last night" nobody could prove it did not. There is no biological mechanism., if there were then that very same cat of mine might just 'will' his food closer and become a very successful, dominant species. There lies in wait a prize of 1 million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate TK in controlled conditions. And I too offer a 2.5million pound prize to anyone who can influence six little lightweight ping-pong balls with numbers on them to be chosen on a saturday evening. (If you offer 3million I'l pop round and beat the crap out of you!). :wink:

Originally Posted by Zelos

You wont even entertain the possibility that psychic phenomena might exist

i will when i see somekinda evidence that has any credibility by people who dont honestly belive in it but seem to get results that can indicate them. as science work. it doesnt exist until proven existing.

Scientific discovery or proof of any phenomenon doesn't require the observer having no belief in it beforehand. Most hypotheses, I would imagine, begin with a belief that something could happen - maybe even an honest belief. Gregor Mendel no doubt honestly believed what the results of his experiments would be and even made a few of them up to conform to his hypothesis. Yet his hypothesis is still widely believed and subsequent tests appear to verify his beliefs.

This, by the way, is not a defence of telekinesis but a refutation of one of Zelos's criterion for belief. I myself do not believe in telekinesis but was a little astounded to see a cup of water suddenly skid around on the table at a Chinese restaurant I was visiting. It just happened to be wet underneath and the air conditioners may have been causing it to aquaplane across the surface.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

To date there are NO cases of of observed telekinesis.

Rubbish. Many people say they have observed telekinesis. You are taking the position, from the outset, that this is false. This is the same logical, or rather illogical, position adopted by creationists.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

There is no biological mechanism.,:

Science has been unable to identify a mechanism. That is quite a different thing. And, curiously, if we don't look for a mechanism what do you think the chances are we will find one?

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by Megabrain

To date there are NO cases of of observed telekinesis.

Rubbish. Many people say they have observed telekinesis. You are taking the position, from the outset, that this is false. This is the same logical, or rather illogical, position adopted by creationists.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

There is no biological mechanism.,:

Science has been unable to identify a mechanism. That is quite a different thing. And, curiously, if we don't look for a mechanism what do you think the chances are we will find one?

There are NO cases of observed telekinesis. There are cases, of psi wheels reported as being TK, but todate nobody has observed TK.
Name a case of OBSERVED TELEKINESIS, you cannot. It is something that has never, and will never exist other than as a product of the entertainment industry. There is no biological mechanism for TK. If you are convinced I am wrong then where is your evidence/proof - anecdotal evidence is not acceptable.

Megabrain, you are missing the entire point I am making. For the record I doubt very much that telekinesis exists.
But I am not adopting the position, which you are, that it does not exist. I am openminded to the possibility. I believe the possibility to be low, very low, but that too is irrelevant.
For decades scientists, including physicists and meteorologists, dismissed the phenomenom of ball lightning. "There has never been an observed case of ball lightning", they said.
"What about all the people who say they have seen it", replied the open-minded brigade.
"They are lying, or delusional, or misinterpreting something else," replied the sceptics.
Today we can produce ball lightning in the laboratory.

Now please tell me what is different about those who claim to have observed telekinesis and those who claimed to have observed ball lightning.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Megabrain, you are missing the entire point I am making. For the record I doubt very much that telekinesis exists.
But I am not adopting the position, which you are, that it does not exist. I am openminded to the possibility. I believe the possibility to be low, very low, but that too is irrelevant.
For decades scientists, including physicists and meteorologists, dismissed the phenomenom of ball lightning. "There has never been an observed case of ball lightning", they said.
"What about all the people who say they have seen it", replied the open-minded brigade.
"They are lying, or delusional, or misinterpreting something else," replied the sceptics.
Today we can produce ball lightning in the laboratory.

Now please tell me what is different about those who claim to have observed telekinesis and those who claimed to have observed ball lightning.

What people claim as TK is not, todate there have been explanations for all so called examples of TK. There is no mechanism for TK in the Human body, full stop. In the same way if I said my car travelled to the moon last night under it's own power, a quick examination would simply reveal no mechanism. Ball lightning occurs outside, in the atmosphere, just a small branch of science which continually throws up surprises.

Your suggestion that ball lightning observers and TK claimers should somehow be given the same credence is unfair, one is an observance of a once disputed, now accepted natural phenomina. The other is a claim that oneself has the ability to manipulate mass by thought alone. You have been fairly free with the quotes, what was your source?

You are openminded, I have been through that stage but now have reached a conclusion.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

You are openminded, I have been through that stage but now have reached a conclusion.

Scientists don't reach conclusions.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Your suggestion that ball lightning observers and TK claimers should somehow be given the same credence is unfair, one is an observance of a once disputed, now accepted natural phenomina.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The comparison is between the status of TK today, when it is rejected by orthodox science, and the status of ball lightning (and meteorites, and continental drift) in the past, when it was rejected by orthodox science.
There was no mechanism, period, for ball lightning.
There was no mechansim, period, for stones from the sky.
There was no mechanism, period, for continental drift.
All are now accepted. On what basis, therefore, do you reject the possibility of TK? The only benefit of this stance, that I can see, is that it puts you in the same box as many great (and wrong) scientists of the past.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by Megabrain

You are openminded, I have been through that stage but now have reached a conclusion.

Scientists don't reach conclusions.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Your suggestion that ball lightning observers and TK claimers should somehow be given the same credence is unfair, one is an observance of a once disputed, now accepted natural phenomina.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The comparison is between the status of TK today, when it is rejected by orthodox science, and the status of ball lightning (and meteorites, and continental drift) in the past, when it was rejected by orthodox science.
There was no mechanism, period, for ball lightning.
There was no mechansim, period, for stones from the sky.
There was no mechanism, period, for continental drift.
All are now accepted. On what basis, therefore, do you reject the possibility of TK? The only benefit of this stance, that I can see, is that it puts you in the same box as many great (and wrong) scientists of the past.

Just what part of ' there is no mechanism', are you unable to grasp?
my car can't fly, if I said it could a quick examination would show there is no mechanism. Which of the atomic forces Strong, Weak, Gravity, Electrostatic, do you think might have a dual use?

There's nothing obtuse about it, you were trying to apply the same rules to the atmosphere as you were to the mind.... ie, ball lightning and TK
how can you possibly class them together?

I've also made up my own mind that man cannot take off, fly a fig of 8 and land of his own muscle power whilst naked, is that not a fair conclusion to reach?

As for ball lightning, there WAS a mechanism, it had simply not been discovered or hypothesised, and the same for meteorites & tectonics.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

What people claim as TK is not, todate there have been explanations for all so called examples of TK. There is no mechanism for TK in the Human body, full stop.

That's ignorance. The human brain controls every aspect of the body. There have been meditators that have been studied which could control atonomous function such as heart rate, blood pressure (without raising the heart rate), stomach function, etc. Why, then, do you not accept the possibility that it can use features of the body to control objects?

More specifically I adhere to a brain wave hypothesis (which, again, I'm working on part-time). Given the complexity of the brain, there is a likely chance that one can learn to directly control it and use it to a small degree. I don't really think lifting a CAR would be probable at this point, but smaller things like that "psi wheel" (under the proper testing conditions).

The main key to doing TK is to have continual motion. Heat can only move it so long, and wind as well, but if you continually move it for an extended period of time, in either direction (or change direction), I do believe there is reasonable evidence to examin the probability further.
Even some "debunk" websites I've seen can only get the wheel to move temporarily by heat or wind. So the key to "proving" it, is continual motion.

In the same way if I said my car travelled to the moon last night under it's own power, a quick examination would simply reveal no mechanism. Ball lightning occurs outside, in the atmosphere, just a small branch of science which continually throws up surprises.

You are as stupid as you are ugly. Neuroscience Has a very hard time studying the brain and is still stuck at technology-improved observations. How can you say the mechanism isn't there, when you've never looked for it? Your "quick examination" is biased, and holds no real value.

Your suggestion that ball lightning observers and TK claimers should somehow be given the same credence is unfair, one is an observance of a once disputed, now accepted natural phenomina. The other is a claim that oneself has the ability to manipulate mass by thought alone. You have been fairly free with the quotes, what was your source?

You are openminded, I have been through that stage but now have reached a conclusion.

You sound like a theist. "I used to think like you do, but now I've been saved!" is of similar mentality. It's not really thought alone as it is thought probably directing some form of energy from your body (brain waves) towards an object and causing motion.

Originally Posted by Zelos

i will when i see somekinda evidence that has any credibility by people who dont honestly belive in it but seem to get results that can indicate them.

Uh...wait, what? So credible evidence can't come from people that believe in it? Only those that don't believe in it can provide credible evidence? How can that be since nobody that doesn't believe in the possibility bothers to research the possibility?
Or is it simply you don't want to believe in anybody but scientists with Ph.D's? Contrary to belief, ones title does not give automatic credibility or knowledge. So define these "credible sources"

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

That's ignorance. The human brain controls every aspect of the body. There have been meditators that have been studied which could control atonomous function such as heart rate, blood pressure (without raising the heart rate), stomach function, etc. Why, then, do you not accept the possibility that it can use features of the body to control objects?

Er... let me see now... the brain has physical connections to these organs that it controls via the basal ganglia, which has a mass of interconnections with the higher brain, maybe that's why the brain can control the heartrate?.

The rest of your post is a mix of insult and male bovine excretia.


Are I see where I've gone wrong this is psuedo-science, ie not real, ok then whatever you like....

Except, see, it is connected to it. If the brain emits these waves, why can't it control which direction they are emitting? or intensity, or any number of other factors.

By the way, with the brain and a car, you compared an apple to a buick. XP

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Except, see, it is connected to it. If the brain emits these waves, why can't it control which direction they are emitting? or intensity, or any number of other factors.

By the way, with the brain and a car, you compared an apple to a buick. XP

Yeah, as I said it's psuedoscience, so send me a check and i'll post you back a matter remote controller. It does not need batteries, it uses a new form of energy called BIBO cells - Bollocks In Bollocks Out. I also have some dud flashlights here, the beams were bent during transit so they only shine around corners, any good to you?.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Yeah, as I said it's psuedoscience, so send me a check and i'll post you back a matter remote controller. It does not need batteries, it uses a new form of energy called BIBO cells - Bollocks In Bollocks Out.

Fact: In recent months scientists have succeeded in testing and using organism-powered things. No need for batteries!

However the brain is far more complex than a remote control. Also, a remote control is composed of different elements altogether. We are organic, and depending on the type of remote, a remote is mostly plastic.

I'd prefer you refrain from acting like you know it all, and instead of calling "bullocks" you could try disagreeing by providing evidence. Unless you have none against it. In which case, why are you so readily disagreeing in a hostile fashion?

I also have some dud flashlights here, the beams were bent during transit so they only shine around corners, any good to you?.

That's nice. You'd get an award for that kind of queer photon travel.

Fact: photons don't behave like brain waves. And the brain waves don't need to be bent in mid-transit if the brain provides a continual-output that changes an objects location slowly but surely. Which it does anyway! Just not intense enough to do anything.

Let's just step back a bit...

Brainwaves are a manifestation of nuerological signals, they form part of what we call a 'closed system'. The problem is as soon as one calls them 'waves' people imagine them as being like radio or light waves somehow radiated outwards, this does not happen. We use sensors to detect these waves by attaching them to the surface of the head. These sensors are very sensitive and only work when in direct contact with the skin. IF they are NOT in very good contact they simply do not detect any of the signals generated by the brain. The sensors themselves are even coated with a conductive gel to aid the detection process. In short, if you do not connect to the closed system you cannot detect them. These signals are no more than minute electrical currents which need conductors to flow in, hence the wires which connect the head to the analyser. The detected amplitude of these signals is around a few millionths of a volt.

My contention is that you MUST have a physical connection for the brain to have influence on matter. If it were possible for the brain to influence 'unconnected' matter why on earth would life need [motor] nerves? why would a person with a severed spinal cord not be able to continue as normal, a small gap within the body would surely be easier to 'jump' than a few feet to a piece of external matter.

I'd recommend you have a really close look at exactly what brainwaves are and perhaps gain a little insight into wave theory plus electrical conduction and attenuation theory. If you can provide a link to the research you call 'fact' I'd like to see it, I suggest that whatever it is, it relies on physical conductors/connections to work, which by it's very definition rules it out as TK.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Let's just step back a bit...

Brainwaves are a manifestation of nuerological signals, they form part of what we call a 'closed system'. The problem is as soon as one calls them 'waves' people imagine them as being like radio or light waves somehow radiated outwards, this does not happen. We use sensors to detect these waves by attaching them to the surface of the head. These sensors are very sensitive and only work when in direct contact with the skin. IF they are NOT in very good contact they simply do not detect any of the signals generated by the brain. The sensors themselves are even coated with a conductive gel to aid the detection process. In short, if you do not connect to the closed system you cannot detect them. These signals are no more than minute electrical currents which need conductors to flow in, hence the wires which connect the head to the analyser. The detected amplitude of these signals is around a few millionths of a volt.

All correct. Except...there isn't a limit on brainwave output. Also; brainwaves are detected with varying success depending on how active they are. There are also alternative theories to other types of energy the brain might emit (although I've yet to read them).
It's also been noted (psipog has an FAQ that denies it though. Morons) that the farther away certain practitioners go the less success they have. Most are nearly directly in front of it (close range).
another thing is that numerous people that "claimed" TK have stated they tend to become very hungry after practicing. Suggesting the use of energy of your physical body. Naturally this assumes they ate a fairly gigantic meal prior and the "very hungry" feeling isn't a natural part of their daily life.

My contention is that you MUST have a physical connection for the brain to have influence on matter. If it were possible for the brain to influence 'unconnected' matter why on earth would life need [motor] nerves? why would a person with a severed spinal cord not be able to continue as normal, a small gap within the body would surely be easier to 'jump' than a few feet to a piece of external matter.

Evolution answers all. I'm speaking of a proccess that might just have evolved as a by-product of certain areas of the brain or is evolving slowly but surely to aid in survival. Precognition, for example, or a sixth sense, would aid greatly in survival. Although those are two things I'm leaving unexplained.

I'm not well versed in guessing possible reasons for evolution. I'll leave that up to those that actually are good at creating a hypothesis.

However for an alternative hypothesis, guess how strong of an EM field the body emits? I'll be covering that as well. It really can go either way, but if you wish we can diverge and go to electromagentism and the human body, rather than brain waves.

I'd recommend you have a really close look at exactly what brainwaves are and perhaps gain a little insight into wave theory plus electrical conduction and attenuation theory. If you can provide a link to the research you call 'fact' I'd like to see it, I suggest that whatever it is, it relies on physical conductors/connections to work, which by it's very definition rules it out as TK.

Actually, by your limited definition it does. This I cannot disagree with. However you're limiting it. The brain tends to have a very high capacity for energy, and the body tends to be very good at delivering that energy at times of need. However I do believe there is a duality here, the body or the brain are equally capable of emitting this energy.

As for the links, sure.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14560502/

And isn't it common sense that photons don't behave like electromagnetic radiation, fields, etc? Seriously now...

Would you care to post exactly how you define Telekinesis or psychokinesis?

Maybe there is some misunderstanding.

Well, there could be a million mile long philosophical discussion that would end in bludgioning eachother, or I could just use a dictionary.

...or not.
tel·e·ki·ne·sis
The movement of objects by scientifically inexplicable means, as by the exercise of an occult power.

Let me redefine it then: The movement of objects by hypothetical means such as electromagnetics or another type of bodily function. Not necissarily done by the mind alone of you wish to entertain the idea of using your body's electromagnetic field. However there are varying degrees of debates over the overall effect electromagentic radiation has on matter..

But to add in a fact you can wiki, lightning that strikes next to a person can severely damage their body simply due to the EM field produced by it. Which lessons with distance (which the theory you mentioned explains, no?).

This can aid in a hypothesis, but I wanted to tackle the brain waves thing first. Hence why I'm researching brainwaves rather than another hypothesis.

Fair enough, as long as there's no physical contact I'm game to debate.
The psi wheel operates by small currents of heated air rising and therefore setting in motion the wheel, can I add to your definition there must be a solid screen between the mass and the mind? - any material any thickness you like, so long as it touches neither part.

If you want to look up the electromagnetic power of the body, remebember it will not even deflect even the most sensitive compass needle. If you wish to study the effects of electric brain waves, remember their frequency is very very low, and so will not be radiated and also since there are many, only a high amount of activity is discernable, many will simply 'cancel' out - Have a look at Kirchoff's Law.

I have a 'scientific tongue-in-cheek' reply to your hunger post....

I'd like to think that people who sit there for hours trying to 'influence' things to move probably forget they need to eat and drink. If you sit there long enough without food and water you will hallucinate, sooner or later this manifests as things moving around, you perceive success, hunger and thirst kicks in....

Actually, at best most of them are idiots that practice for, what, 15 minutes? Trust me, few of them if any practice for hours. And those that do tend to have nothing better to do, but they still take breaks and eat.

However I don't believe it's incorrect to assume that ones EM field, or your brain waves, can increase. Quite the opposite, since your body has a very good capacity for it.
This could explain why one would have to "train" in order to do anything.

The nuero signals are very finely balanced, any increase in 'signal strength' results in a thing called a brainstorm, where the circuits are'overloaded' it's the cause of epilepsy and may be the root of some mental disorders. The skull attenuates brainwaves by a factor of between 10,000 and 30,000 times.

If the entire output of the brain were increased about 1000 fold it might produce enough energy (if it could all be collected, or directed in one direction), to raise 1milligram of matter. In order to do this it would produce as a by product some 60,000 watts of heat. THe size of the human brain is about 1400cc with a relative density of about one. That much heat would raise the temperature of the brain from around 35deg c at a rate of 10Deg c per second. you would fall unconscious after about 1/3rd of a second.

As I have said before because brainwaves are detected by conduction they do not leave the body.

EM waves (IF produced by the brain), would have a frequency of around 10Hz or so, if you wanted to 'transmit' these 'waves' you would need an antenna some 14,250KM in length, thats about 8750 miles long.

So if you want to explore forget 'brainwaves', and EM waves, you are going to have to find another mechanism. BUT moving a milligram by whatever means you come up with will boil your brain in about 6.5 seconds. 8)

Originally Posted by Megabrain

The nuero signals are very finely balanced, any increase in 'signal strength' results in a thing called a brainstorm, where the circuits are'overloaded' it's the cause of epilepsy and may be the root of some mental disorders. The skull attenuates brainwaves by a factor of between 10,000 and 30,000 times.

Incorrect. Epilepsy is caused (sometimes) by incorrect "wiring" in the brain that causes the brain to send "messages" or impulses up to 500 "messages" per second. These messages tend to "short circut" the brain and cause many problems because it's "overloaded".
However many people have had similar occurances, where a brain would send far higher impulses than normal and yet have no seizures. The neuro signals in the brain are _far_ from balanced.

http://az.essortment.com/causesofepilep_rloq.htm (500 per second)


I'd also like to note that it depends where this "brainstorm" occurs, how quickly the signal strength is increased, how long it happens, which areas it effects, etc. You're omitting numerous factors. The brain can easily slowly adjust to increased signals and signal strength. In fact no two people have the _exact_ signal strength in their brain.
Then again, no two people have exact anything if you look deep enough.

Regardless of this, I'd like to see a study that proves the brain can't slowly but surely increase in this manner. And as an interesting note you can google (or I can give you links if you wish), meditation "masters" have been able to raise or lower brain waves for an extended period of time.

And I demand a source for that "attenuation" claim of 10,000.

As a side note, most that claim telepathy develop headaches after a very short period.

If the entire output of the brain were increased about 1000 fold it might produce enough energy (if it could all be collected, or directed in one direction), to raise 1milligram of matter.

A source, or the math. Don't go giving off mathematical figures without sources. I refuse to accept them, and so does everybody else. However you're omitting the bodies EM field

In order to do this it would produce as a by product some 60,000 watts of heat. THe size of the human brain is about 1400cc with a relative density of about one. That much heat would raise the temperature of the brain from around 35deg c at a rate of 10Deg c per second. you would fall unconscious after about 1/3rd of a second.

You appear to be making things up. One can survive a lightning bolt directly to the skull, and remain perfectly conscious.

As I have said before because brainwaves are detected by conduction they do not leave the body.

EM waves (IF produced by the brain), would have a frequency of around 10Hz or so, if you wanted to 'transmit' these 'waves' you would need an antenna some 14,250KM in length, thats about 8750 miles long.

Source, again, for your math. And I said the body, not the brain, would be an alternative for EM fields. Looks like I'm not the only one that doesn't read carefully.

So if you want to explore forget 'brainwaves', and EM waves, you are going to have to find another mechanism. BUT moving a milligram by whatever means you come up with will boil your brain in about 6.5 seconds. 8)

Source for your math. It's missing. And I'm not exactly going to abandon something based on math that isn't backed up by a mathematical equation, source, and is lacking numerous factors. So yes...kindly do be explanative.

Here are the references I used;
http://www.merkle.com/brainLimits.html
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/co...ll/285/6/R1317
http://www.armory.com/~moe/prod01.htm
http://ecjones.org/physics.html

(1mv = 1000 uV)

When you can't rationalise the info remember that electrical attenuation:

(voltage) is 20Log(vs/vo)
(Power) o2 10Log(pi/po)

To get my figure of 10,000 or so I took the energy available in a single 'firing' and compared it to the sensitivity of a machine for measuring brainwaves(at the skull's surface. A perfectly valid method.
Energy produced/energy collected = attenuation

If you take the conservative estimate that the brain has about 10W of energy to produce brainwaves, yet an 11Kohm detector will only recieve a few uV this is a power of 4.5/10^-10 watts! even if you assume the area of the detector is about 4cm sq and take the area of the skull as a conservative 1sq Metre, the brain output (at the surface of the skull becomes around 1.136*10^-6 watts, so from 10 watts thats an attenuation of 8.8million not my original estimate which was calculated differently. I decided to use the lower figure of my original estimate,
As it seemed closer to attenuation of radiowaves in water.

If you are going to suggest that the 'body' (other than the mind) can produce some sort of energy then you have stepped outside the definition of TK.


As for conversion of electrical to mechanical energy, Field strength equation and antenna (1/2 wave dipole design...

Electronics Engineers Refernce Book (Butterworths 5th Ed - F Mazda)
ISBN 0-408-00589-0.

You'll find all the info in the above references.
As for the electromagnetic radiation YOU claim the body is capable of, let me know the full frequency spectrum, and I will investigate it with a very sophisticated EM spectrum analyser.(this of course excludes infrared heat radiation over which the brain has no direct control).

Your epilepsy source...

"In a normally functioning brain, neurons fire about 80 times a second. When they’re damaged, or for some reason behave in an abnormal way, the result is an epileptic seizure. Now the neurons send as many as 500 messages per second."

signal strength, measurements are cumulative rather than instantaneous measurment, accumulation can also cancels (some) noise effects,
my use of increased signal strength was perfectly justified.

Your use of the term 'short curcuit' is the mis-use of a very precise term it does NOT appear in the article you quote.

ALL of the chemical process's within the brain are VERY FINELY balanced.


Quote-
You appear to be making things up. One can survive a lightning bolt directly to the skull, and remain perfectly conscious. /quote

What if any relevance does this have to anything?

Incidentally the formula for designing a half-wave dipole
Length(total) = pC/2F

p = propogation of the speed of light through the atmosphere value used = 0.95.
F= frequency of the wave(Hz)
c= Speed of light taken as 3*10^8 metres/second

Brain waves are somewhere between 075Hz and 15 or so.
(I used 10Hz)

0.95*3*10^8/(2*10) = 14250KM.

Happy now, ie it aint possible with the brain we have?

You know I try to be nice. but people always find new ways to somehow piss me off. So rather than attempting to be diplomatic and speculative, I'll just be straightforeward. Lets enjoy this while it lasts, shall we?
I'll now requote some of the previously quoted claims and question them extensively.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

The skull attenuates brainwaves by a factor of between 10,000 and 30,000 times.

This depends on if bones are a conductive material or they're a resistor. Do kindly tell me which, as I cannot find it.

If the entire output of the brain were increased about 1000 fold it might produce enough energy (if it could all be collected, or directed in one direction), to raise 1milligram of matter.
In order to do this it would produce as a by product some 60,000 watts of heat. THe size of the human brain is about 1400cc with a relative density of about one. That much heat would raise the temperature of the brain from around 35deg c at a rate of 10Deg c per second. you would fall unconscious after about 1/3rd of a second.

That's funny. Since everything else can boil water at far under 60,000 watts. Not to mention 1 milligram of water can be evaporated long before boiling point. or that it can be effected by numerous instruments that run under 100 watts. A light bulb, for example, can run on say 30 watts. Put a drop of water on it, and what happens? ZAP!

And what's the one? One what? Supernova? Sufficed to say, your calculations are flawed and lacking.

EM waves (IF produced by the brain), would have a frequency of around 10Hz or so, if you wanted to 'transmit' these 'waves' you would need an antenna some 14,250KM in length, thats about 8750 miles long.

Why so low?
In fact, none of your sources hint at there being a Hz figure.
While I don't disagree with the antenna bit, that Hz figure is entirely enfounded by your listed sources.

In fact here are numerous sources of my own that disagree with you.

The normal range of brainwave frequency activity in the cortex neurons has traditionally been from 0.5 Hz Delta to 30.0 Hz Beta.

There have also been reports in the EEG literature from other researchers, that there is evidence of extraordinary states of consciousness associated with higher-than-Beta brainwave activity. These brainwave patterns go from 40 Hz and above - in some cases, as high as 100 Hz or more. The 40 Hz higher-than-Beta activity is now an accepted brainwave state in EEG nomenclature being referred to as "Gamma" brainwaves. We are calling brainwave frequency patterns significantly higher than 40 Hz "Hyper-Gamma" brainwave states. More recently, there have been reports by EEG researchers of ecstatic states of consciousness associated with brainwave frequencies of 200 Hz, we are calling these frequencies "Lambda" brainwave states.

http://www.healingmusic.org/Library/...sciousness.asp

Wow...all above 10 Hz!
Here is an interesting fact for the "if EM is produced by the brain". Many people don't know this, but "brainwaves" is a fancy name for the electromagnetic radiation the brain gives off from neurons firing. Due to the electrical nature of the brain.

Actually...even wiki disagrees with you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...hy#Limitations

Here are the references I used;
http://www.merkle.com/brainLimits.html
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/co...ll/285/6/R1317
http://www.armory.com/~moe/prod01.htm

Those references don't back up anything you said prior (as I've shown). You made it up, or your references don't know what they're talking about.

(1mv = 1000 uV)

Uh...what? You know, I couldn't find "mv" in your sources anywhere. Nor "uV". Except for the "source" that was selling an EEG machine that was insanely outdated.
In fact I googled "1mv = 1000 uV" and what did I find? Nothing! "mV to uV" still nothing. I'd love to know where you got that bit of information.

(voltage) is 20Log(vs/vo)
(Power) o2 10Log(pi/po)

You know I can't find that calculation anywhere in your sources either. Amazing!

As for conversion of electrical to mechanical energy, Field strength equation and antenna (1/2 wave dipole design...

Electronics Engineers Reference Book (Butterworths 5th Ed - F Mazda)
ISBN 0-408-00589-0.

Do you know what the most common tactice online is for escaping something you can't back up with a source? Claim a book has the information. Almost nobody will waste their time to buy the book, read it, then read it again, just to find nothing. Whereas sources you can read instantly seem to hold more weight.

You'll find all the info in the above references.

But...I didn't. Despite searching using the search feature, and reading, I didn't. It's also nice to know that your "sources" tend to make things overly complex language wise. While this does make it an interesting read, it seems more focused on confusing the reader than teaching them.
Not to mention a lot of equations, mathematical claims, etc, are still not backed up.

As for the electromagnetic radiation YOU claim the body is capable of, let me know the full frequency spectrum, and I will investigate it with a very sophisticated EM spectrum analyser.

Unfortunately here is where it becomes difficult. There are assloads of theories out there, and barely any of them make any sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofield
Biofields, for example. Biofields are the result of new-age spiritists gone mad.
The problem with biofields is that it suffers from the same problems creationists do: You can never tell if they're making things up. There is a possibility a "biofield" exists of sorts, but according to popular definition they've destroyed it with their bias.

Not only that, but it's insanely rife with frauds. Fortunately this theory can be quickly tossed aside and ignored in favore of something much less stupid! Hurray!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioelectromagnetics
or, rather
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioelectromagnetism

Which branches off into an insane amount of sub-categories that I must find time to read. However I'm having greater difficulty finding an exact number than I would hope. So rather than making up random figures, I'll just keep searching and hope for the best.

signal strength, measurements are cumulative rather than instantaneous measurment, accumulation can also cancels (some) noise effects,
my use of increased signal strength was perfectly justified.

Your use of the term 'short curcuit' is the mis-use of a very precise term it does NOT appear in the article you quote.

90% of what you said doesn't appear in any articles you listed. However I used the term with quotation marks. Which was purposeful (in case you didn't know).

ALL of the chemical process's within the brain are VERY FINELY balanced.

This is a lie. They're never balanced, and people never make attempts to balance them more. An average brain still has "abnormalities" chemical wise. There is absolutely no way to make the brain "finely balanced". You're talking like a theist that believes the human body was created.

Incidentally the formula for designing a half-wave dipole
Length(total) = pC/2F

p = propogation of the speed of light through the atmosphere value used = 0.95.
F= frequency of the wave(Hz)
c= Speed of light taken as 3*10^8 metres/second

Brain waves are somewhere between 075Hz and 15 or so.
(I used 10Hz)

0.95*3*10^8/(2*10) = 14250KM.

Happy now, ie it aint possible with the brain we have?

No, since you were wrong in assuming it was 10 to begin with. Haha

Instead of trying to make the longest post ever, lets deal with things one at a time..

Resistors ARE conductors. - A Phd in Electronics says they are.

I have told you in my previous post how I arrived at the attenuation figure, it's 10Log(power IN/Power out).

Congratulations, if you can raise the temperature of 1400cc's of water from 37.4 to 100C in 6.114 seconds using less than 60,000 watts of electricity you have invented perpetual motion.

Brainwaves come in various types:
http://www.web-us.com/brainwavesfunction.htm
It's not one I posted before but do read it, it backs my power calculations to within a few percent.
Here's a quote..
It is well known that the brain is an electrochemical organ; researchers have speculated that a fully functioning brain can generate as much as 10 watts of electrical power. Other more conservative investigators calculate that if all 10 billion interconnected nerve cells discharged at one time that a single electrode placed on the human scalp would record something like five millionths to 50 millionths of a volt /quote.

It will also tell you that brain waves exist way up past ten hertz.

I fail to see why if we agree brainwaves occupy form <1Hz to > 30 why I cannot pick a middle of the road figure to illustrate an antenna?
Take your highest figure 200Hz if you like that's still an antenna of some 712KM in length.

You failed to find my references in electronics because it and power is clearly a subject you know nothing of.

1uV = 1 microvolt. 1mV = 1 millivolt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuation
look halfway down the page....

No more time to shoot down the rest of your post, duty calls.
Back later 8)

quote
Do you know what the most common tactice online is for escaping something you can't back up with a source? Claim a book has the information. Almost nobody will waste their time to buy the book, read it, then read it again, just to find nothing. Whereas sources you can read instantly seem to hold more weight. /quote.

You asked me to quote my sources, if you'd care to give me your email address I'll scan in the relevent pages and transmit them to you.



I said....
"ALL of the chemical process's within the brain are VERY FINELY balanced."

You replied ....quote "This is a lie. They're never balanced,"/quote.

The chemical balance of my brain is maintained physiologically to a very fine degree, almost any imbalance will produce an adverse effect.

http://www.youthinformation.com/Temp...p?NodeID=90291
"Many drugs interfere with the chemical processes in the brain, altering or destroying the brain's infinitely finely tuned balance. This can result in changes in personality, memory and mood."

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/mar06/3050/2
"the brain is a very finely controlled feedback system." For some diseases, he suggests that the "control system is a little bit out of balance." The periodic pulses from his device in effect "pace" the vagus nerve,

I don't care much for being called a liar when I have presented clear scientific fact to counter your 'mumbo jumbo' I'll leave it to others to decide which of us has a chemical imbalance in their brain.

When we are dealing with telekinesy, we have to deal with two several aspects :
- what the brain is able to do in emission
- what emission produced by any device can produce telekinesitical phenomenas ?

Currently speaking of the brain, the only emission are electrical one, on the scalp that can be recorded via special device like electroencephalogram. I don't think that the brain is able to emit any magnetism, nor any photonic or other particles emissions.

Even if we admit that brain could emit magnetism, I don't see how, it would be able to have an impact on a sheet of paper (no metal in it).

We will also note, that we can have static electricity, but this one is not produced by our metabolism.

For the second aspect, I will say that in order to move several types of objects you will have to control gravitation. That's interesting, but has not been discovered yet.

So here my 2 cents

Originally Posted by Megabrain

As for ball lightning, there WAS a mechanism, it had simply not been discovered or hypothesised, and the same for meteorites & tectonics.

And what makes you so mind numbingly, eyes wide shut, brain out of gear certain that we there is no mechanism for TK. The scientists who were asked about ball lightning also declared it could not exist because there was no mechanism. They were wrong. You might also be wrong.
The only scientific way of considering this is with a mind open to the possibility that there may be an as yet undiscovered mechanism. Your failure to acknowledge this possibility I find quite sad. I see no point of continuing the discussion. There is clearly no mechanism by which I can cause you to see sense.

What is your proposed mechanism?
All I have done is try to educate the poor chap that his 'Electromagnetic, brainwave theory of remote manipulation' simply does not, nay, cannot exist, in humans as they are composed today.

There are some fairly simple well established laws about the motion of matter, which one do you wish to delete in order to achieve TK?

Of course, If I believed in God I might be persuaded that a mechanism existed whereby man could create matter from nothing, since god had done it, but I don't. This is a debate, I am of fixed opinion that it is impossible, so far none of his arguments have persuaded me to relinquish ground. Debates are all about convincing people aren't they?

Originally Posted by Megabrain

What is your proposed mechanism?

I do not have a proposed mechanism. Neither did those who claimed to have observed ball lightning.
I do not propose, therefore, to delete any of the known forces. Please note that we did not always know there were four forces. Guess what? There might just be more. There might be some interesting circumstances in which currently unknown forces lead to baryonic matter interacting with dark matter in unimagined ways. Who knows? I don't. But I shall not blind myself to the possibilities.

I consider it very highly probable that there are as yet undiscovered forces, even Einstein did hence a few little extras he put in to his theory.

But to suggest the mind can somehow remotely manipulate matter and accept this as a possibility I would then need also to accept the possibility of ghosts, leprachauns, telepathy, astrology gods and other absurditites.

It's not a closed mind at all, it is the conclusion of having weighed all the known facts and having a firm grasp of both science and reality. :wink:

Be open minded, do not imply to accept everything, because there is an epsilon chance that it might be true.
Following this logic, if you are open minded, you should accept that it's possible that I am god.

Originally Posted by Powerdoc

Be open minded, do not imply to accept everything, because there is an epsilon chance that it might be true.
Following this logic, if you are open minded, you should accept that it's possible that I am god.

Powerdoc of course being open minded does not imply accepting everything. Indeed, I would argue that true open mindedness involves accepting nothing. But that includes not rejecting possibilities for which there is a scattering of anecdotal evidence, but no well orchstrated research, nor obvious mechanism.

I give up "arguing" with him. He's the same as the "I'll pay you X amount of dollars if you prove this to me" people. You could throw houses over his head and he'd still deny it's a possibility. That and it proves pointless, since I've reached the end of my research rope and I've not enough time to research more. So bleh.

Anybody like to comment on this?

It purportedly shows TK in action, it is one of the best spoof films I have seen.


http://www.tdfun.com/video/view.php?...video&id=13052

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Anybody like to comment on this?

It purportedly shows TK in action, it is one of the best spoof films I have seen.


http://www.tdfun.com/video/view.php?...video&id=13052

yea its fake, and a good request would be to put some magnets around tha, see what he do then.

How do you think they faked it? I have a guess that says because they used 4 glass's to support the table I know how it's done!

I think I'd like to see him use a slightly curved sheet of glass such that a marble might always roll to the middle, and then put some sponges between the glasses and the table top to damp down the high frequency ultrasound that is causing the glass to slide down that slope.

You all know how high frequency sound loves glass, it can shatter it, ot make it 'ring'

He's either actually doing it, or it's the table. The jerky movement looks nice, but his tensing seems more (as the psi community calls it) "fluff" (or fake) than anything. I vote it's the table or whatever it was that white sheet there was covering!

EDIT: In case there are some of you immature enough to think I meant something more dirty, I was talking about the glass and how it's movement was rather not-smooth and more jagged.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

The jerky movement looks nice, but his tensing seems more"fluff" than anything.

Whatever turns you on...... 8)

Oh go to hell.

They say the truth hurts.... :wink:

So that's why you hated being called "special" in school. 8)

The thread is telekinesis, it does not work otherwise you'd have your head up your ass by now..... :-D

Telekinesis is an outrageous and seemingly impossible thing. I know things like flight and lightning and the auroras seem ordinary and understandable now, because we know so much. But please remember. When we knew less, there were things which were simply impossible because the little we had was incomplete. We have tons left to learn, and assuming otherwise is frankly moronic.

TK is unexplainable by normal brain activity, and obviously so. If normal brain activity could move objects, furniture would slide every time you walked in a room.

TK is NOT normal brain activity by its very definition. The minds currents are very small and insignificant. But the means of generating those currents are in place and they do not have a limit, they simply generate only what the mind calls for and no more. If by some focusing technique you could force those already present sources to generate a greater current, you indeed use it to effect objects by static electricity. (human lightning is a well-documented and provable phenomena, the body is fully capable of generating enough energy for self-electrocution).

That being said, remember that education is stressed now as it has never been before. We are constantly trying to force our brains to memorize things faster, to solve puzzles faster, and we never seem to be good enough. We are using our brains in a way open for vast improvements. Anyone who understands natural selection knows that if our brains did not begin evolving, then there is something seriously wrong. Who knows in what way an organism that employs electrical charges on a constant basis will try to expand itself?

Ps: I heard someone say they would only accept proof of tk from someone who did not believe in it. If you tell your mind it can't do something, even in ordinary things most of the time it can't. In something so focused, you'll never get it if you don't believe it.

Originally Posted by blazer2000x

Ps: I heard someone say they would only accept proof of tk from someone who did not believe in it. If you tell your mind it can't do something, even in ordinary things most of the time it can't. In something so focused, you'll never get it if you don't believe it.

That's like saying you'll only accept proof a chicken exists if the person knew the chicken didn't exist. It's a blatant logical fallacy.

That's what I said. (in quieter tones)

Originally Posted by Zelos

i will when i see somekinda evidence that has any credibility by people who dont honestly belive in it but seem to get results that can indicate them. as science work. it doesnt exist until proven existing.

That's what I was referring to. I was simply trying to explain why you can't get proof from someone who doesn't believe it in the instance for tk.

Obviously if regardless of whether someone believes bullets do not exist they will still die if you shoot them in the head. Tk has a snag there, you probably (and I stress "probably" as I don't know for sure) can't do it if you don't believe it's possible.

[quote="blazer2000x"]

Originally Posted by Zelos

, you probably (and I stress "probably" as I don't know for sure) can't do it if you don't believe it's possible.

True. You'll likely won't be able to perform psychokinesis if you don't believe in it. So trying psychokinesis with a tó sceptical attitude will probably result into no results.

I personally 'believe' in it and practice it. I think people need to realise that something like this mÃ*ght exist, and open up a bit. The media has given a terrible image to these phenomena, and that should be corrected... in my opinion.

Why must it be TK to move an object? why not believe you can change it's shape, it's molecular structure? or the time in which it exists?
Why not believe you can make it talk, or light up? maybe change colour?

If your version of TK can so make a mockery of the laws of physics than surely any of these would also be possible.

How about this scenario, you cannot and will never (whilst I am alive) do TK - as I command all matter to behave to our universally accepted laws and NOT move - since I am a master at this you cannot achieve TK. I can command any stationary matter to remain unaffected by tk motion.

I challenge you to a duel we will place any Item you desire under a glass I command it to stay - you command it to move I will always win.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Why must it be TK to move an object? why not believe you can change it's shape, it's molecular structure? or the time in which it exists?
Why not believe you can make it talk, or light up? maybe change colour?

Get your facts straight. TK, refering to Telekinesis, is moving objects with the mind.

Same logic, if you can break one law why not any other law?

If you can move it, why can't you shrink it?

Let's call that teleduction.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Same logic, if you can break one law why not any other law?

If you can move it, why can't you shrink it?

Let's call that teleduction.

Let's call it teleduction. :wink:

And lighting it up could be er.

I know! Teluminescence !

Originally Posted by Megabrain

And lighting it up could be er.

I know! Teluminescence !

Wow! awesomeness! I know, I know, let's call sceptical people towards psionics, SCEPIONS!

Quote WIKI

Psionics is the practice of using a variety of psychic abilities. Although the evidence of psychic abilities in a controlled setting is not supported by science, believers in psychic phenomena have developed numerous hypotheses on its function. Beliefs on how these claimed abilities work vary greatly.

The term, psionics, is also a recurring element in fiction, usually works of fantasy and science fiction as well as video games, especially role-playing games.


So NOT supported by science?

Perhaps you'd better write and tell them you know different...

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Quote WIKI

Psionics is the practice of using a variety of psychic abilities. Although the evidence of psychic abilities in a controlled setting is not supported by science, believers in psychic phenomena have developed numerous hypotheses on its function. Beliefs on how these claimed abilities work vary greatly.

The term, psionics, is also a recurring element in fiction, usually works of fantasy and science fiction as well as video games, especially role-playing games.


So NOT supported by science?

Perhaps you'd better write and tell them you know different...

Maybe I will some day. But, won't I be dismissed as another idiot?

sorry if someone already posted this in this thread, i wasnt going to read 5 pages of posts to find out. everyone kinda started repeating themselves at page 3.

I think that its possible. maybe not in our reality. Science has proven that the human only uses like what, 10 or so percent? maybe a little more if your real smart or something? No one knows for sure what the possibilities of 100 percent of their brain capacity could produce.

Einstein proposed that their are an infinite amount of realities, so according to him, it has to be possible, in any form, in any way. And although there are somethings about Einstein i dont agree with, that, i happen to.

but alas, at this point, this cannot be proven true or wrong, which is the real folly of man.

Perk: as posted in a prior thread, the 10% bit is a myth. You can google it.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Perk: as posted in a prior thread, the 10% bit is a myth. You can google it.

Would you say that of Messers Bush and Blair? :wink:

Okay, but there IS a medical condition where some people don't know they are missing 50% of their neurons! I think. Sort of. Maybe. Okay so I just heard that from some random person and it pretty much fits bush...

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Perk: as posted in a prior thread, the 10% bit is a myth. You can google it.

well i did google it, and this is what i found.

Research Report
Dormancy of the Human Brain
Dormant Brain Research and Development Laboratory
T.D.A. Lingo, Director


The human brain is only 10% functional, at best.
The first to outline this theory, later proved a fact by others, was Australian Neurology Nobel Laureate Sir John Eccles. (Lecture: University of Colorado, University Memorial Center Boulder, July 31, 1974.) "The brain indicates its powers are endless."

In England, John Lorber did autopsies on hydrocephalics. This illness causes all but the 1/6th inch layer of brain tissue to be dissolved by acidic spinal fluid. He tested the IQ's of patients before and during the disease. His findings showed that IQ remained constant up to death. Although over 90% of brain tissue was destroyed by the disease, it had no impact on what we consider to be normal intelligence.

Russian neurosurgeon Alexandre Luria proved that the 1/3 bulk of frontal lobes are mostly dormant. He did this by performing ablation experiments on persons. He gave physiological and psychological tests before, cut out parts and whole frontal lobes, the re-tested after. His conclusion: removal of part or all of frontal lobes causes no major change in brain function, (some change in mood alteration). The frontal lobes are mostly dormant, asleep. (Luria, A.R. "Frontal Lobes and the Regulation of Behavior." In: K.H. Pribram and A.R. Luria, Editors, Psychophysiology of the Frontal Lobes. New York, and London, Academic Press, 1973)

Finally, the human brain contains 10 billion neurons, mostly in the outer layer of brain cortex. the function of these currently dominant cells is fairly clear. but the brain also contains 120 billion glial cells. Aside from some secondary nurturing of neurons, the primary function of the glia is not clear. What big bang mirical awaits mankind within these mysteries?

Today, most would agree without argument that the potential of the human brain is infinite. Thus, to state that a person uses 10%, 5%, or even 1% of their potential brain capacity (infinity) is overly generous.

The point is this: There is no dispute among honestly rational experts about the latent potential of the human think box. There is only friendly dispute about how much and what still awaits us, patiently to be self-discovered between each set of ears. Hence, the wisdom of intuitive folksay was correct: "The human brain is only 10% functional." John Eccles thinks that number is too high. "How can you calculate a percentage of infinity?"


meh. draw your own conclusions. i stand by what i stated.

they're claiming potential. Note: Potential and use are two different things. the human brain USES 100% of everything. Does it use full potential? That depends. Assuming infinite potential, since the brain would evolve, then we aren't even 1%.

In England, John Lorber did autopsies on hydrocephalics. This illness causes all but the 1/6th inch layer of brain tissue to be dissolved by acidic spinal fluid. He tested the IQ's of patients before and during the disease. His findings showed that IQ remained constant up to death. Although over 90% of brain tissue was destroyed by the disease, it had no impact on what we consider to be normal intelligence.

Tell that to people whose brains are shrinking and such. SPECIFICALLY: TERRY SHIVO (don't tell me you don't know of her). I call bullshit.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

they're claiming potential. Note: Potential and use are two different things. the human brain USES 100% of everything. Does it use full potential? That depends. Assuming infinite potential, since the brain would evolve, then we aren't even 1%.

In England, John Lorber did autopsies on hydrocephalics. This illness causes all but the 1/6th inch layer of brain tissue to be dissolved by acidic spinal fluid. He tested the IQ's of patients before and during the disease. His findings showed that IQ remained constant up to death. Although over 90% of brain tissue was destroyed by the disease, it had no impact on what we consider to be normal intelligence.

Tell that to people whose brains are shrinking and such. SPECIFICALLY: TERRY SHIVO (don't tell me you don't know of her). I call bullshit.

to be honest, the name doesnt ring a bell. unless she was that lady where they had all that legal bullshit about keeping her in some form of life, but is it life, blah blah blah thing.

Yes it is potential, BUT, there are parts of our brain that are dormant. People cant just awaken them by thinking, awaken, and therefore, i draw the conclusion that we are only using 10%(ish) of our brains ability. what the extent of that ability(potential) is not what im arguing.

I've shown some photos of that guy levitating paper before, here is a actual video of it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x1MQJesgJP0

Originally Posted by Perk

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

they're claiming potential. Note: Potential and use are two different things. the human brain USES 100% of everything. Does it use full potential? That depends. Assuming infinite potential, since the brain would evolve, then we aren't even 1%.

In England, John Lorber did autopsies on hydrocephalics. This illness causes all but the 1/6th inch layer of brain tissue to be dissolved by acidic spinal fluid. He tested the IQ's of patients before and during the disease. His findings showed that IQ remained constant up to death. Although over 90% of brain tissue was destroyed by the disease, it had no impact on what we consider to be normal intelligence.

Tell that to people whose brains are shrinking and such. SPECIFICALLY: TERRY SHIVO (don't tell me you don't know of her). I call bullshit.

to be honest, the name doesnt ring a bell. unless she was that lady where they had all that legal bullshit about keeping her in some form of life, but is it life, blah blah blah thing.

Yes it is potential, BUT, there are parts of our brain that are dormant. People cant just awaken them by thinking, awaken, and therefore, i draw the conclusion that we are only using 10%(ish) of our brains ability. what the extent of that ability(potential) is not what im arguing.

Not exactly. Dormant areas of our brain are removed during early childhood development years. Neuron paths that aren't used are destroyed, ones that are will be made better, etc. On an evolution scale, it's utterly improbable to say the human brain only uses 10%. And, if it was, victims of brain diseases, shots to the head, etc, would all be non-lethal.

And, if it was, victims of brain diseases, shots to the head, etc, would all be non-lethal

but obviously were still learning

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

And, if it was, victims of brain diseases, shots to the head, etc, would all be non-lethal.

Guess you weren't listening to Perk earlier. Destruction of brain cells does not lower intelligence or hinder ordinary brain functions. That's what John Lorber found in his research.

You can argue they still died, but then there are plenty of diseases that kill you, not just brain diseases. It's only a matter of weather or not the body can beat the disease. If it can, it will, no matter what part of the body the disease is effecting.

Shots to the head are fatal because the amount of damage is tremendous. The entire brain is filled with blood. Ordinary arteries that try to keep going find themselves cut off from the heart, and veins find no way to reach it. Chemical signals are misdirected and result in false relays, and nerve networks that distribute the brains commands to the body are destroyed.

The human body needs 5 things in order to heal. 1. Protein. 2. Energy. 3. Oxygen. 4. A way to move blood cells to and from the damaged area. 5. Control of the previous four items.

When the brain cannot command the body due to damaged nerves, it cannot control the lungs so the body loses oxygen, and it cannot redirect cells to repair itself. That is why head woulds are fatal, not because the brain finds itself short of operable cells.

In patients with brain tumors intelligence can actually be increased as a symptom, despite the fact that far fewer cells are available than in a healthy brain.

Umm....what?

Originally Posted by SpiritNL

I've shown some photos of that guy levitating paper before, here is a actual video of it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x1MQJesgJP0

Not to burst your bubble, and I'm not trying to say that I don't believe in TK because I am pretty sure there are some who can in reality move objects with their minds, but I've played around with magic tricks a lot and if there's one thing I've spent the most time trying to solve, it's a smooth levitation. That ball was on a string. Try it yourself with a thread and a small piece of paper. It trembles and then has a minute pendulum motion just like the ball in the video.

The string wasn't attatched to his fingers, but there could have been someone helping him, or he could have made some simple device to do it for him controlled by his foot or something. But don't be tricked, it's a fake.

(P.S.: Just note again, nothing saying TK is fake, just that video.)

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Umm....what?

Yeah... Ok. Confused a little? Sorry, my fault.

Simplify:

The brain will continue to function even after the destruction of more than 90% of its cells without any loss of ability.

This suggests that the brain does not infact use 100% of its cells for normal ability even when they are present.

Better?

Originally Posted by blazer2000x

Originally Posted by SpiritNL

I've shown some photos of that guy levitating paper before, here is a actual video of it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x1MQJesgJP0

Not to burst your bubble, and I'm not trying to say that I don't believe in TK because I am pretty sure there are some who can in reality move objects with their minds, but I've played around with magic tricks a lot and if there's one thing I've spent the most time trying to solve, it's a smooth levitation. That ball was on a string. Try it yourself with a thread and a small piece of paper. It trembles and then has a minute pendulum motion just like the ball in the video.

The string wasn't attatched to his fingers, but there could have been someone helping him, or he could have made some simple device to do it for him controlled by his foot or something. But don't be tricked, it's a fake.

(P.S.: Just note again, nothing saying TK is fake, just that video.)

It's not fake. Sorry to burst your bubble. :wink:

You probably understand that I know that videos can be faked pretty easily, even this one. And it is in now way proof of psychokinesis. But this video is legit. I know this guy long enough to know he is not faking videos. '...because I am pretty sure there are some who can in reality move objects with their minds' - Your pretty sure right, so why say that this vid is fake? Yeah, it wobbles a bit, so what?

The person in the video is a personal friend of yours? I assume that's what you mean by saying you know him.

I've tried to make videos like that I don't know how many times. They were on strings and they looked exactly like that.

But, you obviously don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

----edited by jeremyhfht, to reduce multiple successive posts. USE THE EDIT BUTTON----

I take it back. The string is on his fingers. There are two strings, one from his thumb to the ball, and the other from his index finger to the ball, watch the video closely, when his thumb or index fingers move, the ball does too, when they go up, the ball goes up. Those two fingers remain in the same position when he is not trying to move the ball, they are there in the begining of the video and still in the same place at the end.

----edited by jeremyhfht, to reduce multiple successive posts. USE THE EDIT BUTTON----

http://digitonblaze.sitesled.com/tk%20illusion.avi

There. I made my own video using the same technique. It turned out quite nicely I think.

IMPORTANT!! THIS IS NOT TELEKINESIS! IT IS A SIMPLE ILLUSION! PLEASE DO NOT GO AROUND SAYING I CLAIMED TO BE ABLE TO PERFORM TK.

Originally Posted by blazer2000x

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Umm....what?

Yeah... Ok. Confused a little? Sorry, my fault.

Simplify:

The brain will continue to function even after the destruction of more than 90% of its cells without any loss of ability.

This suggests that the brain does not infact use 100% of its cells for normal ability even when they are present.

Better?

----EDIT----
Actually, I was going to ignore this, but it proved to...lacking to be ignored.

The brain will continue basic function after destruction of certain areas of the brain. I've never seen *ONE* person survive, without being impaired, 90% or even 50% brain cell destruction. You basically just said "well I know a guy that knew this person who heard from a friend about his cousin that met this guy on a bus who said he saw a doctor who described this story he got from a fellow professional that..." and it continues forever.

Current studies suggest that, in fact, the brain damage fully depends on the type of thing damaging the brain, which areas are effected, how, etc.
----end edit----

Um...no...see, you just happened to post a second before me. I said "what" to PERK. See, if you actually had observation skills, you may have noticed that my post was a second or so behind yours.

Lets ignore this stupid simplification, and move on:

Originally Posted by blazer2000x

Guess you weren't listening to Perk earlier. Destruction of brain cells does not lower intelligence or hinder ordinary brain functions. That's what John Lorber found in his research.

No, see, I guess you weren't listening to me. There are thousands, maybe even more than a million, that suffer from a degenerative disorder regarding their brain cells. All of these people suffer severe (depending on the disease) loss of mental ability.
The brain and body, however, does combat this depending on the disease. Ones neurons in other areas of the brain can start increasing their load slightly, the body attempts to adjust to compensate, there are tons of things the body does brain wise in order to keep things stable and balanced.

And, the best part is, the "disease" in question. While the source (from what I just reread) doesn't list it, I'll quote wiki and provide some sources for further detail:

Because hydrocephalus injures the brain, thought and behavior may be adversely affected. Learning disabilities are common among those with hydrocephalus, who tend to score better on verbal IQ than on performance IQ, which is thought to reflect the distribution of nerve damage to the brain. However, the severity of hydrocephalus differs considerably between individuals and some are of average or above average intelligence. Someone with hydrocephalus may have motivation and visual problems, problems with co-ordination, and may be clumsy. They may hit puberty earlier than the average. About one in four develops epilepsy.

During the course of this problem, many varying effects happen. A person can become smarter in some areas, and dumber in others (See: other areas of the brain taking up the slack). Furthermore, another quote from wiki (the Human Brain)

New neurons cannot be created, they only die as one ages.

In fact, new neurons can grow within the mature adult brain; this process is known as neurogenesis. Regardless of neuron growth or death, brain function and capabilities can be learned and developed throughout life.

shows that neurons can (and do) regenerate. This mounts some evidence to the fact that such a disease has varying effects, and the brain can (and will) repair itself regardless of damage. And, as the disease states, this varies widely on the person.

You can argue they still died, but then there are plenty of diseases that kill you, not just brain diseases. It's only a matter of weather or not the body can beat the disease. If it can, it will, no matter what part of the body the disease is effecting.

...and? This isn't the case. The disease in question is a birth defect, and thus effects everybody from birth on. It isn't a question of "fighting" the disease, but the fact your body doesn't even know it's there. Since you were born with it, your body acts like it's a normal process and makes no attempt to really repair it.
This is similar to cancer in that way, your body doesn't realize it's a threat.

Shots to the head are fatal because the amount of damage is tremendous. The entire brain is filled with blood. Ordinary arteries that try to keep going find themselves cut off from the heart, and veins find no way to reach it. Chemical signals are misdirected and result in false relays, and nerve networks that distribute the brains commands to the body are destroyed.

But if it hit the part of the brain that was dorment, people wouldn't die almost instantly. They could live for minutes, maybe hours, depending on where the shot hit.

However lets quickly completely refute any claims some part of the brain lies in dormancy: If it did, neurology scans wouldn't detect signals running through them.
And now I shall explain actual "dormancy": When a brain develops, neuron paths and such are created, and those that are used most are kept and improved. Those that aren't used tend to lack any and all improvement, and thus they are either "destroyed" or receive less activity (since they're less used).
This doesn't mean major areas of the brain are "dormant," this means that those areas haven't developed. The part of those areas that have are active as the rest of the brain when used. Because of this you can end up with brains like einstein, which probably had more blood and neurons firing in areas where mathematics are concerned, or some famous artist/scientist like Leonardo, who most likely had his abstract and logical areas of the brain refined to a very high extent. Combinations of abstract and logical thought tend to produce the smartest people, but at the same time the areas of the brain not used in the process tend to lack development (and use), and thus they don't improve. They are "dorment" only in the fact that they aren't "expanded."

When the brain cannot command the body due to damaged nerves, it cannot control the lungs so the body loses oxygen, and it cannot redirect cells to repair itself. That is why head woulds are fatal, not because the brain finds itself short of operable cells.

Wrong. If the brain had numerous "free" operable cells, it would quickly diverge as a "failsafe" in order to prevent death, and start using them as quickly as possible. It would keep the heart beating, lungs going, and probably reduce consciousness to an unconscious state, and end up doing a number of failsafe routines like making sure the heart remains at a slow rate, slowing the travel of blood to the effected areas and increasing the flow of certain restorative bodies (which the body does regardless in some cases), etc.

This "failsafe" may be a definite evolutionary advantage, but the body hasn't had the time, nor the increasingly dangerous habitat, to evolve them. In fact, evolution wise, so far no environment has required those dormant cells be developed.

In patients with brain tumors intelligence can actually be increased as a symptom, despite the fact that far fewer cells are available than in a healthy brain.

as suggested above, this isn't so because of the reasons you believe them to be. Not only is intelligence increasement a very RARE side effect, but it also ends up damaging certain areas of the brain. As with the case of certain seizures, very few people walk away from them (when they increase intelligence) without a permanent and lasting damaging effect. In fact there was a show on the science channel regarding this, there are only a handful that walk away without a serious disability.

Furthermore, depending on the tumor, it can link, destroy, increase activity, burn out, etc, areas of the brain. Just because it increases intelligence, doesn't mean it activates "dormant" areas.

I wasn't trying to say that brain diseases can't harm the brain, only that they do not harm the brain by killing of cells that it needs. They harm it by damaging connections between cells and between the brain and the rest of the body. As for the bullet hitting a dormant area and the person surviving, I don't think the dormant areas are that big, probably just a number of cells spread out through the brain that are not used by the conscious mind.

Also note that (I realize I did not say this, but I did not see the need) I do not believe "dormant" areas are out of use. I think most of them are probably used by the subconscious. But that is just opinion as I have not really researched it to any great extent.

Clumsiness as a result of brain damage but no marked drop in cognitive abilities is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. The brain does not lose its ability to learn, it just does not have the ability to control the body's muscles through the same nerve networks as before.

If it will make you happy though, I will recant everything I have said while I research it some more. After all, a lot of it was based on Perk's little article.

_________________EDIT_____________________________ ________

OK, I researched it some more. I think (I may be wrong) but I think that you might be misinterpreting some of what I was trying to say. I do not believe that there are large areas of the brain full of cells that just sit there and do nothing at all. I believe that there are certain cells that develop independantly of our conscious mind.

This is what our subconscious mind consists of. And, if sectors of the conscious mind have been damaged, and if the mind is given enough time (all healing takes time), then sectors of the subconscious can be converted into conscious members.

That's what I was trying to say, and as I reread I can see how I could have been clearer.

P.S. Sorry about the multiple posts, they weren't all the same or anything; it's just in the order I wrote them, and I did other stuff between writing them. I think long posts are uglier, but I guess that doesn't really matter much.

:P at least we have someone that actually researches stuff

Originally Posted by blazer2000x

The person in the video is a personal friend of yours? I assume that's what you mean by saying you know him.

I've tried to make videos like that I don't know how many times. They were on strings and they looked exactly like that.

But, you obviously don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

----edited by jeremyhfht, to reduce multiple successive posts. USE THE EDIT BUTTON----

I take it back. The string is on his fingers. There are two strings, one from his thumb to the ball, and the other from his index finger to the ball, watch the video closely, when his thumb or index fingers move, the ball does too, when they go up, the ball goes up. Those two fingers remain in the same position when he is not trying to move the ball, they are there in the begining of the video and still in the same place at the end.

----edited by jeremyhfht, to reduce multiple successive posts. USE THE EDIT BUTTON----

http://digitonblaze.sitesled.com/tk%20illusion.avi

There. I made my own video using the same technique. It turned out quite nicely I think.

IMPORTANT!! THIS IS NOT TELEKINESIS! IT IS A SIMPLE ILLUSION! PLEASE DO NOT GO AROUND SAYING I CLAIMED TO BE ABLE TO PERFORM TK.

Naah, this video is not fake. Yeah, by saying I know him, I mean personally. It may actually look like there are strings, but I don't believe that. The next video will probably have something in it to make sure no strings are attached. *Goes watching your fake PK vid*

If you actually know the person and don't think that they are faking it it's a little reafirming, but anyone is capable of lying. I'll wait for the next vid.

Just one thing I'd like to point out though. At the end of the video, right before the camera goes off, his thumb moves, and the paper ball moves with it. It's just a tiny shift, but it's there without a doubt.

Who knows. Maybe he really can do tk but the camera makes him nervous or something, or maybe he doesn't have quite that much power, and so he faked the video as a last resort to convince people of what he already knew to be true. I'm not saying there is no TK, nor that even the individual involved does not posess it, but I have watched that video through and through in every minute detail and I am convinced it is a fake. So like I said, I'll wait for the next one.