Thread: The Device

Hello... I know I am new here and pretty much none of you know me.. However I am goin to get straight to the point with my first and most urgent need to be here..I am currently working on a perpetual energy device, one that is far more plausible than the others I have reviewed.. I have the schematics already made and I am in the process of building it (unfortunately I cannot and will not reveal any design templates until it is thoroughly patented)... but I am recently out of a job and still live with my parents as I'm only 17, and I lack funds..I figure it's a far fetch to ask for money here but I don't need much... around 100$ to get a prototype built and functioning, but I also figured the power of being numbered could also help, there are many people here, so the more that help me reach my goal, the less it takes from each person.. Per say 100 people help me, only a dollar each, or 50 people with 2$ each, magnificent what could be done!If you want to ask questions, fire away, I haven't an issue answering any of them (except ones revealing schematics, something like this would be snatched up by a thief in no time if it wasn't patented)I have no problem speaking by phone, email, Facebook if you have one, however you like, and if you decide to assist me you may send funds in whatever manner you like as wellIn the event that you do, you may send your name and such indentifying info so when I present this Device publicly, I may recognize you as one of those who helped get it off the ground, and surely include you as an initial investor.Questions? Contact me-Nathaniel Haines

Well, Doc, five dollars is all my mom allows me to spend. That perpetual motion machine better love me long time.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

I am currently working on a perpetual energy device

So you are wasting your time and now you want to waste other people's money. Good luck with that.

Why not tell us how this "perpetual energy device" is supposed to work? Then we can explain where you are mistaken. What is it this this time? Magnets? A series of weights, levers and wheels? Buckets of water?

Don't worry about patents. Most patent offices have explicit exclusions for non-functional ideas like this. And there is no point wasting more time and money to obtain a patent for something which doesn't work anyway.

Actually.. I simply won't reveal designs because it is not like most other perpetual energy designs... And one that might actually work would be stolen nearly immediatelyNever have I witnessed such closed minded ignorance on a subject like this... A real scientist doesn't believe that it's impossible, but incredibly complex

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Actually.. I simply won't reveal designs because it is not like most other perpetual energy designs... And one that might actually work would be stolen nearly immediatelyNever have I witnessed such closed minded ignorance on a subject like this... A real scientist doesn't believe that it's impossible, but incredibly complex

-Refusing to provide any evidence to support claims.
-No reason to believe that the device has had any work put into it and is not, in fact, a WoW subscription.
-Insulting people for not being idiots
----Doing so to ask for money.

I'm seeing a disconnect, here. Call me crazy, but if I want money from people, I think I'd go a different way...


ETA: I've developed a plausible method to turn Smurfs into gold.
I will not tell you how I've developed the method or the details of how it works. Give me money so I can market my product and also, provide personal information I can use to spam you later.

Welcome Doctor Haines

Straight to Pseudo you go then.

Let me assure you here and now that it is not going to work. The idea of such a device goes against everything we know about our world. Overwhelmingly more probable is that you simply don't have a good grasp of the underlying principles that would prevent your machine from working. We are ready to invest our time in helping you understand those reasons, if only you are ready to let yourself be corrected. That seems to be a surprisingly difficult thing to do for some people.

If in turn you are irreparably convinced of the viability of your device, then I am afraid you have come to the wrong place. The choice is yours.

Ahhh.. It is interesting to listen to those who think inside the box of known physics..Back in the day you would have been called just as mad for saying the earth is round or that it orbits the sunThinking outside what we "know about the world around us" is how discoveries are made my friend

And by the way, WoW? Anyone who spends money to sit around and venture through a fantasy world and achieve nothing in reality is mad themselves

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Actually.. I simply won't reveal designs because it is not like most other perpetual energy designs... And one that might actually work would be stolen nearly immediatelyNever have I witnessed such closed minded ignorance on a subject like this... A real scientist doesn't believe that it's impossible, but incredibly complex

You may have heard of something called the Laws of Thermodynamics. You may even have heard of Noether's Theorem. If you haven't then you shouldn't be throwing around accusations of ignorance. If you have, then you should realise that, no matter how open minded you are, you are proposing something impossible.

I understand there are now seven billion people on the planet. If we exclude the present children that's at least ten billion people alive since the start of the 20th century. Admittedly mnany of them lacked education, but that could be an advantage when seeking to design a perpetual motion device. Still, what is it that makes you think that out of these ten billion people you are the one to have found a solution to the problem of perpetual motion machines? I'm quite an egotistical, arrogant, self satisfied kind of a guy, but I couldn't even begin to approach that level of self-aggrandisement. How do you do it?

Anything outside the box of known physics has to be able to explain what is inside the box of known physics. that's because - wait for it - it's known physics. It is known to work. If your device were to work then some fundamental law would be flouted and things we know work would not have been able to. Of course, since you've - apparently - spent most of your time thinking outside the box you have bugger all idea of what is inside it.

Another random thought.: after we send you the $100 will you then ask for the $10,000 required to file the patent?

And another: are there no lawns to cut in Florida?

A 17 year old who just lost his job, lives with his parents, and calls himself 'Doctor' is asking me for $100?

Well, at least you're not that damn Nigerian Prince again.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Ahhh.. It is interesting to listen to those who think inside the box of known physics..Back in the day you would have been called just as mad for saying the earth is round or that it orbits the sunThinking outside what we "know about the world around us" is how discoveries are made my friend

You choose ignorance then? Fine. No skin off my back.

My knowledge stretches far beyond this.. I'm quite good with organic chemistry and physics as well as pharmaceutical botanyAs to why you people had to so rudely bombard an idea I proposed with such obsurdity is beyond meIf every scientist or physicist in the world treated aspiring learners like all of you, the scientific community would slowly sputter and die

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

As to why you people had to so rudely bombard an idea I proposed

You haven't presented an idea. You have refused to do so. You have said "I have invented a machine the defies the most basic laws of physics".

As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Or at least a little explanation. I see no reason to take this any more seriously than I would claims of a flying broomstick.

But feel free to convince us otherwise. Show us we are wrong. If you are right, you will get a Nobel prize and you can use the money to fund your development.

Well, you could have simply left it at that could you not have? Instead of telling me I'm going to use the money for some online gameI am in fact almost to where I can build one.. I am just slightly short of fundsBut make no mistake.. remember my name for once I've made it you will surely know about itAnd to the remark about my user name.. It's just a nickname because I plan on getting a few PhDs in my life

Never have I witnessed such closed minded ignorance on a subject like this

In all your 17 years?

5 bucks a lawn and in 20 lawns you get your 100. Or maybe you could get a paper route.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Well, you could have simply left it at that could you not have? Instead of telling me I'm going to use the money for some online game

Hey! That wasn't me.

I am genuinely curious about what your idea is (even though I know it won't work). So do please come back when you are ready to tell us more.

If you do plan to patent it, you will have to be very careful to avoid it sounding like perpetual motion or it will be instantly rejected.

You can file a patent fairly cheaply if you do it yourself (abut $300 in the US, I think). You need to be careful how you describe it though. You need a description that is complete enough that someone else could build one but you also need to be generic enough that someone can't get round it by, say, replacing a copper pipe with a plastic one. You would need to say something like, "in one embodiment, this could be carried through a copper pipe but other suitable materials could be used". Getting all those weasel words right is what we pay patent attorneys so much for!

You can file just a detailed description and that gives you a "priority date" (your invention will be protected from that date if/when granted). You then have 12 months to file a full patent specification, which must include the claims, which define exactly what is protected. Writing claims is also tricky and worth paying a patent attorney. Within that 12 months you can also file the same patent in other countries.

HTH

I'm going to get the money, just obviously not here, but where I get it doesn't matter to me at allYou'll all see

You could try those crowd-funding web sites. (But note that raising money for a perpetual motion machine might be considered fraud in some jurisdictions - IANAL)

Thanks for the input.. but I may actually as of now be getting the funds soonAnd also.. think not... perpetual motion.. but self sustainedPerpetual motion isn't possible.. because no matter what, gravity and friction will equal or overpower whatever motion you set in place eventuallySelf sustained energy is not the same as perpetual motion (which is not what I'm referring to)

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Hello... I know I am new here and pretty much none of you know me.. However I am goin to get straight to the point with my first and most urgent need to be here..I am currently working on a perpetual energy device, one that is far more plausible than the others I have reviewed.. I have the schematics already made and I am in the process of building it (unfortunately I cannot and will not reveal any design templates until it is thoroughly patented)... but I am recently out of a job and still live with my parents as I'm only 17, and I lack funds..I figure it's a far fetch to ask for money here but I don't need much... around 100$ to get a prototype built and functioning, but I also figured the power of being numbered could also help, there are many people here, so the more that help me reach my goal, the less it takes from each person.. Per say 100 people help me, only a dollar each, or 50 people with 2$ each, magnificent what could be done!If you want to ask questions, fire away, I haven't an issue answering any of them (except ones revealing schematics, something like this would be snatched up by a thief in no time if it wasn't patented)I have no problem speaking by phone, email, Facebook if you have one, however you like, and if you decide to assist me you may send funds in whatever manner you like as wellIn the event that you do, you may send your name and such indentifying info so when I present this Device publicly, I may recognize you as one of those who helped get it off the ground, and surely include you as an initial investor.Questions? Contact me-Nathaniel Haines

Right lets start at the beginning, here you have a group of people with varying levels of understanding of science, if you have really invented what you are claiming to have I'm sure that pretty much most of us would pony up all the money and more besides, sounds easy huh? But here is the thing, you have to actually persuade someone of the validity of your claim and pretty much everybody is going to dismiss the term "perpetual energy device" straight away. This is because we all understand that energy has to come from somewhere and the term you are using is suggestive that it comes from nowhere which anyone with even the most basic understanding of physics will tell you is impossible.

What I would strongly suggest to you is that because you are still very young and have time on your side is to stop wasting it with this idea, if you really want to and are interested in working on energy generation devices then go away and start to learn about how energy is actually generated, by this I mean the 'real' sources from which energy is actually extracted, then who knows in a few years you might actually be able to come up with something real that people can take you seriously over.

Anyway best of luck.

Actually... I do know where energy comes fromIt's key conponent is the magnets and copper coils of which are in it's design, because if I'm not mistaken, passing a magnetic field through inductive metal coils generates EMF, or electromotive forceThe thinner the gauge and the more turns, the higher the voltage and lesser the currentThe thicker the gauge, the lesser the voltage and the higher the currentFaradays Law

That's just ONE source of energy.. but it is the one I'll be using in this case

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Actually... I do know where energy comes fromIt's key conponent is the magnets and copper coils of which are in it's design, because if I'm not mistaken, passing a magnetic field through inductive metal coils generates EMF, or electromotive forceThe thinner the gauge and the more turns, the higher the voltage and lesser the currentThe thicker the gauge, the lesser the voltage and the higher the currentFaradays Law

Unfortunately for you, what you have described is not a source of energy but the operating principle of an electrical generator. I think you will discover that you need to do mechanical work to pass your magnetic field through your inductive metal coils. There's the rub.

Ahhh, did you think I was un aware of this? I realize that the magnets are no going to move themselves! This is raw common sense...However that is the point where the secret of its function of which I do not want to reveal until patented liesYou may believe it will not work however I have done thorough calculations on nearly every variable, I'm convinced enough to be going as far as this to get it built.. I was also aware that what I described is the basic principle of a generator..

As any fool knows, though, you can use some of the electricity to drive a motor to turn the generator. Isn't that right Doc?

Yes, quite obviously

I really hope you are joking.

But not enough energy will be flowing to keep the motor going... It would likely slowly bog down until the RPM of the generator is insufficient to power the motor

Phew!

That's what the hand crank is for. Perpetual energy, as long as you keep cranking it.

This was a serious question:

I understand there are now seven billion people on the planet. If we exclude the present children that's at least ten billion people alive since the start of the 20th century. Admittedly mnany of them lacked education, but that could be an advantage when seeking to design a perpetual motion device. Still, what is it that makes you think that out of these ten billion people you are the one to have found a solution to the problem of perpetual motion machines? I'm quite an egotistical, arrogant, self satisfied kind of a guy, but I couldn't even begin to approach that level of self-aggrandisement. How do you do it?

I really would welcome a serious answer.

Quite simple. Tis nothing to do with grandiose or anything of the like. I simply don't see why one should totally write it off? It is impossible in accordance with our current understandings, yes.. But the laws of physics have been re written many a time, things considered completely impossible proven to be completely correct hundreds of times, some of the most scholarly physicists even cast out of society way back when they attempted to present a theory that others deemed "impossible" just as had occurred here. Sure something SEEMS impossible, but what is the harm in attempting a crack at it? Where is the huge level of grandiose I exhibit for trying to think outside the box or be creative, come up with a new idea? Was Isaac Newtons mind infested with the same affliction that you assume mine is? What is the problem with TRYING to create something, is what I don't understand, most inventions of our time took hundreds of prototypes or hundreds of redesignings of the schematics for them to work, so what if it took 5000 trys to make something but nearly everyone who tries gives up at 4500? Where is the grandiose or self absorption in trying to create a device like one that provides limitless energy, as impossible as it may seem, labeling someone such things for trying to create something is entirely, completely, and wholesomely ridiculous and absurd.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

But the laws of physics have been re written many a time, things considered completely impossible proven to be completely correct hundreds of times

A few have been modified over time. Very few have been completely overthrown. Some never will be. For example, basic conservation laws.

some of the most scholarly physicists even cast out of society way back when they attempted to present a theory that others deemed "impossible" just as had occurred here.

That is a common claim of people with ideas they think are revolutionary. Unfortunately I don't believe it is true. But even if it were, it is irrelevant.

Where is the huge level of grandiose I exhibit for trying to think outside the box or be creative, come up with a new idea?

But that is not what you are doing. You are trying to work against the laws of thermodynamics. This is even less plausible than saying you have developed a time machine or faster than light travel. Without very strong evidence, I see no reason to even consider it a possibility.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Quite simple. Tis nothing to do with grandiose or anything of the like. I simply don't see why one should totally write it off? It is impossible in accordance with our current understandings, yes.. But the laws of physics have been re written many a time, things considered completely impossible proven to be completely correct hundreds of times, some of the most scholarly physicists even cast out of society way back when they attempted to present a theory that others deemed "impossible" just as had occurred here. Sure something SEEMS impossible, but what is the harm in attempting a crack at it? Where is the huge level of grandiose I exhibit for trying to think outside the box or be creative, come up with a new idea?

This entire rant was nothing but twaddle. Name even ONE sound scientific principle that was shown totally in error if you can. You claimed there are hundreds.
You tried the old "Earth was believed flat" crap already. Actually, over two thousand years ago, Eratosthenes accurately calculated the circumference of the globe.
Only the ignorant uneducated layman believed the Earth was flat. Scientists did not. It's common that proponents of garbage pull this, "Scientists used to say the Earth was flat." NO! Ancient philosophers have said it, true- but not scientists.
"Scientists used to say flight was impossible."
Seriously? NO! Any scientist had already observed birds.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Was Isaac Newtons mind infested with the same affliction that you assume mine is?

What an absurd comparison; You, sir, are no Isaac Newton. Newton did not have opposition as you claim. He was well received for Principia Mathematica. Lucasian Chair

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

What is the problem with TRYING to create something, is what I don't understand, most inventions of our time took hundreds of prototypes or hundreds of redesignings of the schematics for them to work, so what if it took 5000 trys to make something but nearly everyone who tries gives up at 4500? Where is the grandiose or self absorption in trying to create a device like one that provides limitless energy, as impossible as it may seem, labeling someone such things for trying to create something is entirely, completely, and wholesomely ridiculous and absurd.

Keep asking for Money.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

But the laws of physics have been re written many a time,

Earlier, you wrote this:

I have done thorough calculations on nearly every variable

When you did your calculations, did you use the old laws of physics, or re-written laws of physics? If you used the old laws of physics, I suggest you sharpen your pencil, or calculate the other variables you left out.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

It's key conponent is the magnets and copper coils of which are in it's design

I bet it's one of those flashlights you shake.

On an aside, are you going into higher education? At the very least, your misguided passion could help you do well in class. And I'm sure the professors would LOVE to have you around.

On yet another aside, your English could use some more work. Maybe it's shallow of me, but I'd be more inclined to listen to your claims if you could use a period properly.

So, take the money he's asking for and put it toward a proper education instead of a novelty gimmick? Well spoke.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

So, take the money he's asking for and put it toward a proper education instead of a novelty gimmick? Well spoke.

I was getting there.

Spend my money on a machine that violates the known physical laws, or go to college?

He may be an unparalleled expert in organic chem and pharma botany, but he's no economist.

You're right, I am no economist. And I do in fact plan on a higher education, in quite a few fields, such as being a field botanist searching for alternative natural medicine. Things like that. This, is just a side interest of mine, though no less focused on it than any other passion I have. And regardless of how many Laws of Thermodynamics and ideals of inevitable entropy you fire at me, it will continue to burn just as strongly. Granted my chances of failure are great, this fact will never thwart me. No matter how impossible you proclaim it to be, I believe that if you get it just right, find that one key principle to make such a design roar to life, it is possible.. Just beyond our current understanding. And THAT will ALWAYS be my understanding. Like I said, granted I may fail. But what if I do not? What if for some IMPOSSIBLE reason I DO make such a thing? Where will your Laws of Thermodynamics be then, my friend?Sincerely, Nathaniel Haines

What if for some IMPOSSIBLE reason I DO make such a thing?

So you are saying that it is possible to pick yourself up by your belt, using your very own hands, and lift yourself up away from the earth that way ?
Because in principle that is precisely what you are proposing.

Now tell me, is it our lack of understanding which prevents us from doing so ? Do you think we will be able to pick ourselves up by the belt in, say, 2000 years time, because our understanding will be greatly improved then ?

Now THAT is impossible, quite ludacris to compare what I have brought up with something like that.. Have you ever heard of gravity? That an object at rest will remain so until an OUTSIDE force acts upon it, you pulling on your own belt generates zero inertia and therefore zero motion.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Now THAT is impossible, quite ludacris to compare what I have brought up with something like that.. Have you ever heard of gravity? That an object at rest will remain so until an OUTSIDE force acts upon it, you pulling on your own belt generates zero inertia and therefore zero motion.

Now look who's being negative.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Now THAT is impossible, quite ludacris to compare what I have brought up with something like that.. Have you ever heard of gravity? That an object at rest will remain so until an OUTSIDE force acts upon it, you pulling on your own belt generates zero inertia and therefore zero motion.

If you understand that, then why are you laboring under the misconception that something else that's equally as absurd is somehow possible?

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

Now THAT is impossible, quite ludacris to compare what I have brought up with something like that.. Have you ever heard of gravity? That an object at rest will remain so until an OUTSIDE force acts upon it, you pulling on your own belt generates zero inertia and therefore zero motion.

Have you ever heard of the law of the conservation of energy ? That you have to first input energy into a system in order to extract work ?
The example of the person picking himself up by the belt is exactly analogous to a perpetuum mobile performing work - it is simply a ludicrous idea ( by your own admission ), and has nothing to do with our understanding of nature. Thus it is not possible ( and never will be ) to construct such a machine as the one you are proposing. You are wasting your time.

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

find that one key principle to make such a design roar to life, Nathaniel Haines

Could you stop it?

Originally Posted by Doctor Haines

What if for some IMPOSSIBLE reason I DO make such a thing? Where will your Laws of Thermodynamics be then, my friend?Sincerely, Nathaniel Haines

You will not do such a thing. The Laws of Thermo will continue to hold just fine.

These laws are not just some random idea cooked up by a standards committee. They are based on quite fundamental considerations, whose violations would have been evident in the many experiments run (both within our laboratories, and by the universe at large). Look up "Noether's First Theorem" to understand that certain symmetry principles imply these laws.

By the way, "ludacris" is the name of a rapper. I think you meant "ludicrous."