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About LinkBacksWe have a spacestation... can it be altered so as to be selfsufficient?
Supporting life? In need of no transports from Earth? How?
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December 14th, 2012, 11:26 PM
We have a spacestation... can it be altered so as to be selfsufficient?
Supporting life? In need of no transports from Earth? How?
Everything would eventually need replacing no matter how good you construct it. Everything mechanical will break down and then you would be in very bad shape. So it is possible to build a space station which could support life but only for a very short time. Unless there's a way to manufacture parts and update things you won't last long out in space.
I agree. But manufacturing parts and updating things is already assumed in the concept of self sufficiency.Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
Theres not much to find close to the station. Im only aware of solar power and hydrogen in the form of ions.
We could use induction to harvest it. Its close to cheating to steal from Earth,
but lets check if the upper layers of Earths athmosphere can support the self sufficiency:
I think the first task is to make a list of available resources,
finding out if there are alternatives to ordinary construction materials,
and verify that construction of replacement parts can be manufactured in near space.
Heres a quote from wikipedia:
ppmv: parts per million by volume (note: volume fraction is equal to mole fraction for ideal gas only, see volume (thermodynamics)) Nitrogen (N2) 780,840 ppmv (78.084%) Oxygen (O2) 209,460 ppmv (20.946%) Argon (Ar) 9,340 ppmv (0.9340%) Carbon dioxide (CO2) 394.45 ppmv (0.039445%) Neon (Ne) 18.18 ppmv (0.001818%) Helium (He) 5.24 ppmv (0.000524%) Methane (CH4) 1.79 ppmv (0.000179%) Krypton (Kr) 1.14 ppmv (0.000114%) Hydrogen (H2) 0.55 ppmv (0.000055%) Nitrous oxide (N2O) 0.325 ppmv (0.0000325%) Carbon monoxide (CO) 0.1 ppmv (0.00001%) Xenon (Xe) 0.09 ppmv (9×10−6%) (0.000009%) Ozone (O3) 0.0 to 0.07 ppmv (0 to 7×10−6%) Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) 0.02 ppmv (2×10−6%) (0.000002%) Iodine (I2) 0.01 ppmv (1×10−6%) (0.000001%) Ammonia (NH3) trace Not included in above dry atmosphere: Water vapor (H2O) ~0.40% over full atmosphere, typically 1%–4% at surface
Structure of the atmosphere
Principal layers
Layers of the atmosphere (not to scale)
Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is more to read in the article, the space in here is restricted so I only took what was necessary to get the nice picture above. A problem is that at the height of the space station theres only helium and hydrogen. Harvesters must probably be able to reach far down.
Will the search result in failure? Is self sufficiency in near Earth space impossible?
Last edited by sigurdV; December 15th, 2012 at 02:20 AM.
Where do they get all of the raw materials to build things that need replacing? You can't have mountains of ore stored in some place which are needed to extract minerals from that are needed in building most things. So again I say that EVENTUALLY you will run out of things to build with so no station can ever be built without a link to Earth for supplies of the natural kind or man made ones.But manufacturing parts and updating things is already assumed in the concept of self sufficiency.
Well, if we wanted to do that (don't see why, on a planet would be far easier) then first of all, biologically we'd apply permaculture. This will sustain all biological needs. Then construction, well, we could invent self repairing materials, or something like that. But the vacuum of space will always eat on the exterior, which we cannot repair. Instead a corundum shell would be more simple. Also we'd most importantly need a source of energy, which is probably the most tricky part.
So what is going to fix the leaks that micro meteorites make or even large ones that put large holes into the station. There are so many hazzards in space that as yet we know little about that could be an unforseen problem which there is no remedy for. Radiation that is found in space has at least 23 different sources that wew know about, how do you protect humans from that and the things that we as yet don't know about?
Asteroids...mine the "flying mountains."
But manufacturing parts and updating things is already assumed in the concept of self sufficiency. Asteroids...mine the "flying mountains.
Have you read anything about what minerals are found in asteroids? If you would investigate you would find very few minerals are in asteroids, nickle and iron being the primary minerals in many asteroids already explored. You still have to find and mine the asteroids as well and that's no easy thing to do and could take years to extract enough raw materials to help with rebuilding processes on the spacecraft.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55325884,d.eWU
I thought that you wanted a completely self sufficient space station and already you are going out to get things to keep the station up and going. That is why I stated that you can't keep a station going without getting materials from outside somewhere sometime in the future. So your idea of a totally self sustaining station isn't feasible is it.
Im not saying that it is possible to construct a selfsufficient space station: I want to prove it can be done!
And its not obvious to me how to prove either conclusion: It depends on how you define things.
Ive forbidden the surface of Earth (and trading exchanges) but not its athmospere which means youre allowed to harvest anything in there...there are molecules in the air containing metals but as you point out: its no mountain of ore... And it would be time consuming and expensive and perhaps interferring with going ons on earth.
Thats why solar power should be used as tEChnOLOGICAL foundation of its running...
Thats why I search for alternatives of metals...Whats wrong with silicates?
There are no restrictions in constructing it but after that:
NO more help should need to be given unless the station is interferred with...
First we prove it cant be done because of a missing ingredience...
Next we ask where, not on earth, do we find the missing ingredience
and include using it in the maintenance and repair of the self sufficient space station.
Post Scriptum: In a later stage the station will stop stealing earthly air
and only use non terrestial resourses,say,
Venusian Air, oxygen from Moon silicates... whatever is practical.
Main article: Atmosphere of Venus
Cloud structure in the Venusian atmosphere in 1979, revealed by ultraviolet observations by Pioneer Venus Orbiter
Synthetic stick absorption spectrum of a simple gas mixture corresponding to the Earth's atmosphere
and Venusian atmosphere composition based on HITRAN data[40] created using Hitran on the Web system.[41] Green color – water vapor, red – carbon dioxide, WN – wavenumber (caution: other colors have different meanings, lower wavelengths on the right, higher on the left).
Venus has an extremely dense atmosphere, which consists mainly of carbon dioxide and a small amount of nitrogen. The atmospheric mass is 93 times that of Earth's atmosphere, while the pressure at the planet's surface is about 92 times that at Earth's surface—a pressure equivalent to that at a depth of nearly 1 kilometer under Earth's oceans. The density at the surface is 65 kg/mł (6.5% that of water). The CO2-rich atmosphere, along with thick clouds of sulfur dioxide, generates the strongest greenhouse effect in the Solar System, creating surface temperatures of at least 462 °C (864 °F).[11][42] This makes the Venusian surface hotter than Mercury's, which has a minimum surface temperature of −220 °C and maximum surface temperature of 420 °C,[43] even though Venus is nearly twice Mercury's distance from the Sun and thus receives only 25% of Mercury's solar irradiance. The surface of Venus is often described as hellish.[44] This temperature is even higher than temperatures used to achieve sterilization.
Im with you in trying to determine what really is meant by "Self Sufficient Space Station"
I think that what is meant is that it is independent of the EARTH.
You didnt seriously think I meant "independent of its outside environment" did you? (just teasing)
You correctly pointed out that it will need resources lacking in its immediate surroundings.
Concentrating on ore... I woulda been more concerned about life sustenance!
We need O&C and nearest good source is VENUS! But how do we access it!
Together with hydrogen and some other "letters" we can make lots of things
(including oil) but how do we transport things in space IF we have a consumer?
The station might try to collect all available C in the Earth athmosphere
but it builds up exponentially and the station will not be able to filter out all C
unless it too grows exponentially. I fear Earth in the future will become a Sister of Venus.
I suggest we speed up the building of the independent space civilisation.
This is something I strongly agree with. But there is one major resource that is more important than any other- and in short supply currently: Knowledge.
There is more to making a list of necessities- there is the know how to make it happen. This includes effective and efficient propulsion, fuels, power sources, and massive engineering feats and energy demands we can barely fathom today.
The only way for us to learn what we need to know to make this happen in the future is to buckle down and convince the entire world the importance of Space Missions. For countries to stop squabbling and cooperate, as we are just now beginning to do- and start sending people UP there. The LHC is only one step. But hands on experience is a great teacher.
We need to be spending more time and resources on space programs now to gather the knowledge we need to make what we may have to do later possible.
Thank you! I found nothing said to disagree with.This is something I strongly agree with. But there is one major resource that is more important than any other- and in short supply currently: Knowledge.
There is more to making a list of necessities- there is the know how to make it happen. This includes effective and efficient propulsion, fuels, power sources, and massive engineering feats and energy demands we can barely fathom today.
The only way for us to learn what we need to know to make this happen in the future is to buckle down and convince the entire world the importance of Space Missions. For countries to stop squabbling and cooperate, as we are just now beginning to do- and start sending people UP there. The LHC is only one step. But hands on experience is a great teacher.
We need to be spending more time and resources on space programs now to gather the knowledge we need to make what we may have to do later possible.
YES! Knowledge is a vital resource...I take things slowly.
It would have arrived on the list eventually.
But it warms my heart when anyone speeds up things.
Looking statistically on mass extinctions in the past...
I calculated that we should be extinct by now!
Did anyone else do the arithmetics?
So IF a threat arrives...how early must we now identify it in order to save the Earth?
My own speculations is it's a few hundred years. To develop the technology and resources for massive scale... I did say "speculations."
On the fuel problem alone, I think we shot ourselves in the foot and are a hundred years behind already. We may need to scramble to try to get caught up.
Ha! I knew there was something to attack!
There are no "only ways", but you are immediately excused for the simple reason that you were saying something vital and gave yourself no time to check the vehicle used. This only goes to show that repair&maintenence is important but not as absolutely necessary as "know how" is: A friendly advice: As you sit down in your car...dont forget to check its condition, I have confidence in your driving style but ...eh... thats not all there is to the journey.The only way for us to learn what we need to know to make this happen in the future is.
I wish I knew how!
Im a peaceful guy you dont have to worry about me in here!
In here speculation is the norm. We cant accurately foresee the future but we want to effect it!
Anyone telling a TRUTH should point that out. Were pseudoscientists, huh?, "they" will leave us alone.
I think you are slightly pessimistic...
But Im afraid youre correct in making the judgement that we must see incoming dangers far in advance.
But some dangers give no warning in advance! Supernovas shoot rays travelling with the speed of light and such rays
(there might be more lightspeed dangers) cannot be detected in advance:
Is there any other way to protect life against that threat but starting self sufficient colonies deep underground?
Where should the first be put? (I want it underneath Sweden.)
By "shooting ourselves in the foot" are you perhaps referring to nuclear technology?
Perhaps we should impersonate greenies and demand all powerplants to be moved deep underground in order to protect life...We wouldnt actually be lying...would we?!
EDIT: Besides forcing coal burning deep down under the sea bottom perhaps makes it easier to clean out the coal before it reaches the athmosphere... Theres someting about water circulation scratching my mind...
Last edited by sigurdV; December 16th, 2012 at 10:57 PM.
It seems to me that in order to build the ship below we will have to know how to sustain life in space for long periods of time without a supporting planet anywhere around close by. So until we can do that we need to keep our supporting planet in good working order.
I'm not suggesting we don't continue gaining knowledge ASAP, but we do need to take care of the home planet first and foremost.
Design of a Multi-Generational, Interstellar Ship
1 Good we now have a design of a spaceship in the thread. " Its late I will look closer at it tomorrow.
2 I hope the resource problem can be solved by accelerating resources in ion form sending a continuos stream in a ray accompanying the ship. If a molecule is needed its simply picked up. No need to carry resources inside the ship. The ray fills the same function as a planet. when the ray arrives at the target we either let it land on a planet or direct towards the next target.
3 The situation of the earth is EXACTLY the reason we must control near earth space. Whats your ideas on how to prevent comets to destroy life on earth? Ignorance or Prayers wont work. First we go out to protect earth . Next we start production of necessities and luxury...business as usual...but independent business...trading? or just delivering goods with the earth. So what are the pressing problems we should solve before we form "the shield of earth"?
I think stopping asteroids will be easier than stopping comets, because we should have a great deal more lead time to deal with the problem. On the plus side we don't get a lot of new comets coming into the inner solar system, but if they do we will be lucky to get a few months notice and that's the big trouble with comets. Comets might be mostly be big icy snowballs, but they tend to be coming in at two or three times the speed of an asteroid, so they have a great deal of kinetic energy. At the moment I'm not sure what the best way to deflect them is, but I currently like using nukes as deflectors rather than blowing it into pieces. Also, I might like using kinetic impactors, but have concerns about how well they might work against an icy snowball. Either way the lead time will be very short, so if we don't have a plan with the space hardware already in place we will be screwed.
You forgot energetic rays from outer space...supernovas,for example, shoot out rays powerful enough to sterilize earth from far distances if they happen to hit...the probability is close to zero but not close enough!I think stopping asteroids will be easier than stopping comets, because we should have a great deal more lead time to deal with the problem. On the plus side we don't get a lot of new comets coming into the inner solar system, but if they do we will be lucky to get a few months notice and that's the big trouble with comets. Comets might be mostly be big icy snowballs, but they tend to be coming in at two or three times the speed of an asteroid, so they have a great deal of kinetic energy. At the moment I'm not sure what the best way to deflect them is, but I currently like using nukes as deflectors rather than blowing it into pieces. Also, I might like using kinetic impactors, but have concerns about how well they might work against an icy snowball. Either way the lead time will be very short, so if we don't have a plan with the space hardware already in place we will be screwed.
My view is that since we can be dead within a couple of months if were very unlucky we shouldnt take any chances. when theres the survival of life on earth at stake I refuse to take any chanses however small...Theres not much we can do my friend but...eh...ahem: SHALL WE GO AHEAD AND DO IT!?
Last edited by sigurdV; January 3rd, 2013 at 05:40 PM.
In Liddell Hart's words,
In strategy the longest way round is often the shortest way there;
a direct approach to the object exhausts the attacker
and hardens the resistance by compression,
whereas an indirect approach loosens the defender's hold by upsetting his balance.
Questions?
- Why werent we planning for this?
Predation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe intergalactic space our way to escape?
http://en.wikipedia....e#Intergalactic
http://en.wikipedia....scale_structure
Neither we nor them can exceed the speed of light
so if the prey keep moving it is safe for the moment...
- http://en.wikipedia....ki/Civilisation
1 Where?
2 What kind of civilisation?
3 Where can we flee?
http://en.wikipedia....ki/The_Universe
http://en.wikipedia....of_the_universe
I didn't forget about it. I was just answering your question about comets and asteroids. From current observations the chances of a supernova happening close enough to us to be of much concern is quite slim and we do have time to become advanced enough to spread our species out into the galaxy on many different planets ( if we don't do anything stupid like make our planet unlivable before that happens).
The best way to avoid extinction is not to have all your eggs in one basket (Planet Earth). If we don't become a multi planet species however that might be possible, we will go extinct. It's just a matter of when.
Im feeling slightly depressed:
I want to do something to improve our chances
of survival but have no idea of what would help!
It will pass... Ill be back when in better mood: Cya!
EDIT: Welcome Forrest! Let me guess... You wont tell the tale of Venus?
What once was there... Proof still hidden and buried somewhere in its rocks...
If I may disturb the equilibrium:
On Venus the first civilisation in the solar system suicided.
(Sorry folks in this mode of mine Ill say anything just to taunt ya!)
Last edited by sigurdV; January 2nd, 2013 at 03:15 AM.
Hi SigurdV,
(Transferred from another thread.)
(Your quote)........heres my prediction:
We will be extinguished either soon, by local dangers like incoming comets, or later by Alien "Visitors"
(your quote)Yeah, this might be humanities fate someday, but I hope notI hope by then that humans will have become a multi-planetary species, as well as having many large traveling space colonies, traveling arks so to speak.
It will take us roughly 500 years to terraform Mars to form substantial livable underground colonies. Eventually man will probably be able to live on the surface of Mars without pressure suits, maybe just insulation suits and "re-breathers" converting CO2 to oxygen. My expectation is that there will be over 10,000 workers on the moon colonies and asteroid belt colonies, also in about 500 years. They will be doing both mining and manufacturing for Earth, space colonies, and Mars colonists. It will take at least 10,000 residents for a permanent, totally self sufficient space colony. Most colonists will be educated and grow up as vegetarians. I expect protein will be gained from legumes, soy, vegetables, so animals will not be needed or wanted for such colonies.I would like you to tell me more about it ....
The space colonies will be something like large navy aircraft carriers, concerning needed personnel of many varied educations and professions. They will generally have their own laws related to the needs of the colony. Breading colonists will be genetically screened, and I would expect the colonies to carry a large supply of cryogenically frozen zygotes for implantation to provide a large variety for future genetics of the colony besides normal breeding. Space colonies, I expect, will be multi-generational taking hundreds of years to go from one star system to another. By then we will have specific targets with less speculation concerning our destinations. A zoo of animals could be carried for extra-stellar colonizations plus a large inventory of animal genetics for transplantations if and when a extra-planetary colony might be established. In the history of mankind, 10,000 years is all of civilized history, but less than 1% of man's total history concerning the genus Homo. In 10,000 years I expect there will be large extra-stellar planetary populations.
When the Earth is much more crowded it will also be easier to find willing space, moon, and other-world colonists.
Last edited by forrest noble; January 2nd, 2013 at 12:30 AM.
Correction a rebreather does not convert CO2 to O2.
A rebreather is a closed-circuit breathing apparatus that absorbs the carbon dioxide of a user's exhaled breath to permit the rebreathing (recycling) of the substantially unused oxygen content of each breath. Fresh oxygen is added to replenish the amount metabolised by the user.
Yes, that's right. That's why I put re-breather into quotes. I probably should not have used the word rebreather. My intent is a device at that time which will convert CO2 from ones breath and the atmosphere, into oxygen. Such a back-pack sized device does not presently exist, as far as I know.Correction a rebreather does not convert CO2 to O2.
Happy New Year to you
Same for you, and yes as far as I know your right no such device exist. If you could invent one, you would be rich. Plants do a good job, but they are not very convenient for the use you want the device for.Yes, that's right. That's why I put re-breather into quotes. I probably should not have used the word rebreather. My intent is a device at that time which will convert CO2 from ones breath and the atmosphere, into oxygen. Such a back-pack sized device does not presently exist, as far as I know.Correction a rebreather does not convert CO2 to O2.
Happy New Year to you
O'Neill colony. Two words which make the discussion thus far irrelevant.
I don't get your point here John. I see nothing about O'Neill's designs that could preclude space colonies in general of many possible designs. 500 years, for instance, is a long time to perfect and test possible designs, discover and test new related inventions that could seemingly overcome any present day design objections.
The problem with biosystems is when they are small and self contained there's not much forgiveness or time when something fails or wears out. We humans are having trouble with an entire planetary biosystem with lots of forgiveness. I won't say it's impossible but I'd have trouble betting my life on it without a proven track record of success.I don't get your point here John. I see nothing about O'Neill's designs that could preclude space colonies in general of many possible designs. 500 years, for instance, is a long time to perfect and test possible designs, discover and test new related inventions that could seemingly overcome any present day design objections.
Welcome John! You are as everybody else entitled to state your opinions. But some seriousness is expected in here. How can a few mere words make anything irrelevant? Isnt the meaning of the words also involved? Would you please explain to readers what is meant by your inadequate statement? Not ALL readers of this thread are familiar with O´Neill colonies and your concept of irrelevancy.
The concept of "re breathers" I find new and interesting since terraforming Mars will take lots of time, and such a thing would open up Mars for early exploitation (Not to mention other possibilities.)...but what else than Scientific Knowledge has Mars to offer? Will not high export costs be an obstacle to economically successful Marsian enterprises?
Theres the remote possibility that life gets sterilised by cosmic radiation...Protected "Breeding Centers" would safe guard life...Where do we construct the first? Not on Earth surely?
So HOW will it ever become Reality?Im interested in what I find missing in your Five hundred year vision. It seems your looking away from the sun! What about Venus, Mercury and Near Solar Space? You envisage lots of life in space... Where do they get the necessities of life (like C) from? And energy? The farther away we are from the sun the weaker the sunshine is...wouldnt it make sense to collect energy (sunshine and perhaps solar wind) closer to the sun and transport it in a concentrated form outwards?
Shouldnt we check "matter and energy" transports more closely?
Forgetting the construction of Space Colonies...or "Spaces Cities" as I envisage them...
Our Solar system is a really BIG place I think we really should try to get the picture to readers:
The Sun > The inner Planets > The asteroid Belt > The outer Planets with their moons > The Oort cloud > The Centauri System four light years away ...Eh... what did i forget? We should protect Earth from comets coming in from the Oorth Cloud...can we do that without being present there?
We need them already in controlling our Solar System.Why does everybody stick to the thought that the "Space Culture" will settle on planets?
Why rule out the possibility that future Humans will PREFERE living in space?!?This latest short statement should be expanded! Hopefully your interesting view will be discussed and analysed. I have some remarks and objections but I will save them for later when and IF a serious and healthy conversation is going on in here. Welcome to contribute anyoneWhen the Earth is much more crowded it will also be easier to find willing space, moon, and other-world colonists.
Last edited by sigurdV; January 2nd, 2013 at 05:49 PM.
Hi Kerling!
Why not return and extend this? ("corundum shell"?)
Youre not alone there. "Farming experiments" should begin NOW at the space station.The problem with biosystems is when they are small and self contained there's not much forgiveness or time when something fails or wears out. We humans are having trouble with an entire planetary biosystem with lots of forgiveness. I won't say it's impossible but I'd have trouble betting my life on it without a proven track record of success.I don't get your point here John. I see nothing about O'Neill's designs that could preclude space colonies in general of many possible designs. 500 years, for instance, is a long time to perfect and test possible designs, discover and test new related inventions that could seemingly overcome any present day design objections.
sigurdV,
Yes, exports of goods and materials from Mars could not seemingly sustain the colony. It would have to be generally self sustaining and self maintained. Mars material and manufactured imports from the Earth's moon seems like a likely possibility. Engineering designs, unique technologies, on-line internet talents, on-line management and consulting skills, documentary photography, Martian theatre-style motion pictures, intellectual properties, patented and copyrighted materials, etc. could be exported.The concept of "re breathers" I find new and interesting since terraforming Mars will take lots of time, and such a thing would open up Mars for early exploitation (Not to mention other possibilities.)...but what else than Scientific Knowledge has Mars to offer? Will not high export costs be an obstacle to economically successful Marsian enterprises?
The first colonies will be within the solar system and can start much smaller. The moon is the easiest place for general non-Earth colonization. After that the asteroid belt and from these materials, manufacturing colonies could provide the parts needed for ever larger space colonies. After the moon, the next colonization will most likely be the asteroid belt closely followed by Martian colonies. Someday I expect Mercury will be colonized underground near the large polar reservoirs of water. And Venus, I expect will eventually be terraformed and habitable.Im interested in what I find missing in your Five hundred year vision. It seems your looking away from the sun! What about Venus, Mercury and Near Solar Space? You envisage lots of life in space... Where do they get the necessities of life (like C) from? And energy? The farther away we are from the sun the weaker the sunshine is...wouldnt it make sense to collect energy (sunshine and perhaps solar wind) closer to the sun and transport it in a concentrated form outwards?
Shouldnt we check "matter and energy" transports more closely?
Matter and energy transport systems I expect will be greatly improved by that time.
Excepting for the moon, however, I expect the colonization of space within the solar system will be the easiest of non-Earth colonies, building with lunar materials. Only when these colonies become very large will some of these large, generally independent colonies consider venturing off toward another star system. Before any leave I would expect that robotic crafts will have discovered other Earth like habitats to eventually colonize.
Yes, I expect many will prefer space colonial life to planetary life, which may involve many more unknowns and risk factors.Why does everybody stick to the thought that the "Space Culture" will settle on planets?
Why rule out the possibility that future Humans will PREFERE living in space?!?
OKThis latest short statement should be expanded! Hopefully your interesting view will be discussed and analysed. I have some remarks and objections but I will save them for later when and IF a serious and healthy conversation is going on in here. Welcome to contribute anyone
Last edited by forrest noble; January 2nd, 2013 at 07:34 PM.
I will happily accompany you to the Moon... but I would like more details of the journey.
And I will select Venus Atmosphere as the next stop!
Im interested in C and O (together with other possible stuff...
perhaps manufactoring oil) ! We dont build a colony on the surface of Venus...
That interesting challenge will have to wait.
Instead we use colonies in orbit above and IN the atmosphere.
Advantages:
1 Its the largest volume able to sustain life in the solar system.
2 Lots of what life needs is found in the heavy atmosphere...
We can use balloons for ecospheres... among other things.
And who says the beginning colony cant be all through artificial?
Constructed by the Moon Colony? From mostly Lunar resources?
3 Possibly profit can be made in exports.
SigurdV,
Orbiting inside Venus's atmosphere is one of the ideas of Bigalow inflatable "space hotels." Such hotels could float in the upper atmosphere of Venus in the shadow of the planet maybe near twilight zones, where both water, oxygen, and moderate temperatures exist. Bigalow first plans such habitats for high Earth orbit, then for the surface of the moon, orbiting the moon, and later orbiting Mars and/or Venus. Later for Mars surface colonies. Adjacent "agricultural hotels" could grow food from recycled water. Sounds like an interesting and even probable concept for the foreseeable future, right?
Bigelow Space Hotel – Reservations Coming Soon!
Last edited by forrest noble; January 2nd, 2013 at 09:21 PM.
Indeed! Its late here. Ill check details tomorrow. But this Bigelow surely makes sense! Thank you!SigurdV,
Orbiting inside Venus's atmosphere is one of the ideas of Bigalow inflatable "space hotels." Such hotels could float in the upper atmosphere of Venus in the shadow of the planet, in a Zone where both water, oxygen, and moderate temperatures exist. Bigalow first plans such habitats for high Earth orbit, then for the surface of the moon, orbiting the moon, and later orbiting Mars and/or Venus, and for the surface of Mars. Adjacent "agricultural hotels" could grow food from recycled water. Sounds like an interesting concept in the foreseeable future, right?
Bigelow Space Hotel – Reservations Coming Soon!
Yes, a proven track record of success over a few hundred years of complete independence would be a great proof-of-concept test for such a future interstellar venture.The problem with biosystems is when they are small and self contained there's not much forgiveness or time when something fails or wears out. We humans are having trouble with an entire planetary biosystem with lots of forgiveness. I won't say it's impossible but I'd have trouble betting my life on it without a proven track record of success.I don't get your point here John. I see nothing about O'Neill's designs that could preclude space colonies in general of many possible designs. 500 years, for instance, is a long time to perfect and test possible designs, discover and test new related inventions that could seemingly overcome any present day design objections.
My point is that the discussion up till this point has been an ineffectual attempt to recreate the thinking that O'Neill has already done with elegance and a degree of precision. Sigurd wants a self-supported space station - fine! Build a frigging O'Neill habitat.I don't get your point here John. I see nothing about O'Neill's designs that could preclude space colonies in general of many possible designs. 500 years, for instance, is a long time to perfect and test possible designs, discover and test new related inventions that could seemingly overcome any present day design objections.
1. this was a very serious statement. Thus far the thread has fumbled around with concepts very well addressed by O'Neill a couple of decades ago. So, seriously, cut the amatateur crap and work to tupdate the O'Neill concepts.
2. A few words can make something irrelevant because they point towards the natural conclusion of the fumbling in this thread were your question ever to be properly and seriously considered.
3. All readers are now capable of searching for O'Neill colonies and educating themselves.
4. If they do so then your questions has some chance of being answered promptly and meaningfully.
5. You are welcome.
I will not conduct your basic literature search for you. If you were serious about your question you would know that some such experiments have already been conducted.
Its really nice of you to inform the readers of this thread to search the net for facts. But it can be a lonesome business as you must have noticed sometimes...facts should be shared dont you think? Shared and discussed. Expressed in our own words. Assimilated in our own thinking processes.My point is that the discussion up till this point has been an ineffectual attempt to recreate the thinking that O'Neill has already done with elegance and a degree of precision. Sigurd wants a self-supported space station - fine! Build a frigging O'Neill habitat.I don't get your point here John. I see nothing about O'Neill's designs that could preclude space colonies in general of many possible designs. 500 years, for instance, is a long time to perfect and test possible designs, discover and test new related inventions that could seemingly overcome any present day design objections.
1. this was a very serious statement. Thus far the thread has fumbled around with concepts very well addressed by O'Neill a couple of decades ago. So, seriously, cut the amatateur crap and work to tupdate the O'Neill concepts.
2. A few words can make something irrelevant because they point towards the natural conclusion of the fumbling in this thread were your question ever to be properly and seriously considered.
3. All readers are now capable of searching for O'Neill colonies and educating themselves.
4. If they do so then your questions has some chance of being answered promptly and meaningfully.
5. You are welcome.
I will not conduct your basic literature search for you. If you were serious about your question you would know that some such experiments have already been conducted.
We differ a lot John! To you its the information in itself and the authority behind it that is holy! You like to see it organised in pretty threads visited by reverent pilgrims copying the information placing it in their notebooks for future reference.Overseen guided and directed by dedicated guards of authorised thought.
For me its the minds that are hungry for the information that is of interest. Breaking cultural and geopolitical barriers. Uniting forces for good will and understanding and inspiring each other. Trying to make our world a better place.
Why didnt you say: Hi Guys! Have you heard about O neill? He has done lots of work in your field of interest... Instead of telling us our efforts has been futile and of no importance and all work already done?
Who do you work for really?
Hi Guys!
We should unite forces...it doesnt matter HOW individually weak and fumbling we are.
And WHAT we are trying to achieve.
We decide that NOW is the time to do something however inefficient and naive it may be.
IF we do something now it may be noticed tomorrow and we find a new friend.
Together we can make a difference. Alone we will be assimilated by darkness.
Whatever it is Sig, count me in. Your a man I will do bussiness with. You can count me as a loyal team mate.Hi Guys!
We should unite forces...it doesnt matter HOW individually weak and fumbling we are.
A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you.
Noble Forrest
Im going to slaughter your text.
Im sorry but I think its good
and I will abstract and exemplify on it.
Kiss it good bye!
sigurdV,
Yes, exports of goods and materials from Mars could not seemingly sustain the colony. It would have to be generally self sustaining and self maintained. Mars material and manufactured imports from the Earth's moon seems like a likely possibility."re breathers"
Marsian enterprises?
(Thats why I say: Mars can wait!)
Engineering designs, unique technologies, on-line internet talents, on-line management and consulting skills, documentary photography, Martian theatre-style motion pictures, intellectual properties, patented and copyrighted materials, etc. could be exported.
(This is creative... but why wait for "Marsians"? Lets count on earlier start of these activities.)
The first colonies:your Five hundred year vision. It seems your looking away from the sun!
What about Venus, Mercury and "matter and energy" transports ?
( Its questionable if the space station merits the name COLONY
But YES! Its a hotel, experimental station and the Earth spaceport
There The Space Adventure starts With Space Manufacturing.
We need lots of practise before we develop the asteroids.)
The moon is the easiest place for general non-Earth colonization.
After that the asteroid belt and from these materials,
manufacturing colonies could provide the parts needed for ever larger space colonies.
After the moon, the next colonization will most likely be the asteroid belt
closely followed by Martian colonies.
(We should really fight each other on this verry important difference:
ITS TOWARDS THE SUN WE FIRST SHALL TRAVEL!
After the Lunar industry is working!
And our Breeding Center is established.
It will be the wet dream of every earth male,
and even poor males have a chance to get there
The lottery guarantees that
Otherwise only the rich can afford the visit...
The rest of us can only watch and sigh on internet.
Its inhabited mostly by women taking the chance
of escaping oppression, poverty and enslavery
and living a life in freedom and luxury
the one way ticket is free for fertile young women...
(I want more speed than you seem to prepare for.)
Lunar industries most important product will be construction materials
and solar energy collectors
we want as much as possible to be automated and run on free energy.
Every solar ray touching the Moon will be converted to electricity.
We will export from the Moon so An induction transporter is built.
Able to put spaceships travelling in all wanted directions
but also transporting matter in ion form towards Venus where
An inductor transporting venus air and eventually other derivatives
will be built for transport to the Earth system.)
"Someday I expect Mercury will be colonized underground near the large polar reservoirs of water.
And Venus, I expect will eventually be terraformed and habitable."
(Nahh its atmosphere should be exploated, its no hurry to dig down into the ground.
we have farms and factories in the Venusian air streaming food and oil to the Moon!
Or...thats how I dream it...now please shatter my fantasy!)
Confront it with Harsh Reality...Show me how stupid I am
"Matter and energy transport systems I expect will be greatly improved by that time.
Excepting for the moon, however, I expect the colonization of space within the solar system will be the easiest of non-Earth colonies, building with lunar materials. Only when these colonies become very large will some of these large, generally independent colonies consider
venturing off toward another star system. Before any leave I would expect that robotic crafts will have discovered other Earth like habitats to eventually colonize."
Yes, I expect many will prefer space colonial life to planetary life, which may involve many more unknowns and risk factors.Why does everybody stick to the thought that the "Space Culture" will settle on planets?
Why rule out the possibility that future Humans will PREFERE living in space?!?
OKThis latest short statement should be expanded! Hopefully your interesting view will be discussed and analysed. I have some remarks and objections but I will save them for later when and IF a serious and healthy conversation is going on in here. Welcome to contribute anyone
You will find many instances in many threads where I have provided links to excellent websites, or to research papers that provide an explanation or information more cogently and comprehensively than I can. You will find many other instances where I shall carefully explain a concept, pitching it at what I judge to be the appropriate level for its intended audience.
I am most likely to do the former for topics I am familiar with, but not deeply so. Where I have a level of expertise on a matter I may offer material in my own words. However, as befits a science forum, I shall often try to provide references that either validate my summary, or provide a more in depth treatment.
Why did I employ a two word response on this thread? Two reasons.
1) As far as I can see the solution to your question is comprehensively provided by such work as has been done on O'Neill space habitats. I have not explored details of these for more than a decade so putting it into my own words is not an option. The two words and the use of search engines should be sufficient to provide all that is required. I caqn't think you want me to do your work for you.
2) Your demeanour in this thread struck me as arrogant. You appeared to have some answers already waiting in the wings, ready to reveal at the appropriate point, with the expectation of applause. I didn't like that. If you are going to approach this question with arrogance then you really ought to know about O'Neill. If you had come across as being genuinely interested in a solution, rather than promotion of your ego then I would have likely offered you three or four key links and a summary of O'Neill's work. Perhaps I've misread the arrogance, but your behaviour on multiple other threads makes me doubt that.
You favour sharing information. I am happy to share this information with you. If making the world a better place is your goal then your approach stinks.
Proud Warrior! Daring to face scorn and persecution. I Wish I Could Adorn Your Encouraguing Words With Roses!
I was going to warn people off from openly supporting me...I guess I was too late in your case. So be it friend!
The rest of you unless you are prepared for an an endless boring defence against the forces of Darkness...Message me!
I will provide you with the means of communication... and eventually these "Concentration Camp Guards"
will realise they have misjudged me...They will not be able to admit that openly of course, too much rope have they utilised. I expect them to continue attacking me (but perhaps not my friends) on sight, thereby actually strenghtening my cause. (Enemies CAN be useful in some cases.)
So if you exist then message me and I will publish in your place
Whatever it is Sig, count me in. Your a man I will do bussiness with. You can count me as a loyal team mate.Hi Guys!
We should unite forces...it doesnt matter HOW individually weak and fumbling we are.
(Well then Qfy... Its nice that we are now
TWO warriors a 50% rise in power!
hmmm... me and math...isnt it 100%?)
A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you.So whats your thoughts on the colonisation of space?
Any ideas on intergalactic travel? (Coming soon in this thread.)
Last edited by sigurdV; January 3rd, 2013 at 09:00 AM.
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Macbeth, Act 5 Scene V
sigurdV,
Ha, Ha.....Confront it with Harsh Reality...Show me how stupid I am
This thread has not reached the common-man level yet where some "stupid comments" would be expected
I particularly like the idea of adding Bigalow type hotels/enclosures to permanent structures like the space station.
Free floating structures in the Venusian atmosphere might only support a crew of at most maybe 20 to 50, where an orbiting structure would not need control and would not be subject to vagaries of atmospheric currents, which are strong in the upper atmosphere of Venus.
As a starter such relatively low cost Bigalow type structures could set the stage for more substantial, permanent structures.
One really silly question is how to survive the Venus ground conditions... A sond sent by the Russians was very shortlived but managed to convey some data before it succumbed. Perhaps you noticed that drops of water can survive on a hot stove by the vapor shielding it from contact. Id like to examine this a bit further, we are in no particular hurry... no pressing matters to attend to... no particular info to collect...
Let us now see how crazy sigurdV possibly can get:
Can an egg refusing to get boiled be constructed: An "egg" using only the incoming heat with no energy reserves to protect itself from its surroundings? If it is theorethically possible then we can leave the construction details to unemployed engineers! (Welcome!) And consider other uses such vehicles could be constructed for. Could they be used for sundiving?
Exploring the Inside of our Sun ??????????
Dont shoot me...this thread is in PseudoScience remember? Some wackiness must be expected of us
Let us imagine inductive transporters on the solar surface (or near it) sending rays of super energetic solar hydrogen into space?
Or simply a shielding Dyson Sphere at the sun surface? (While we are at it let us build a laboratory there experimenting with creating variations of life able to survive and FIGHT in any imagined conditions!)
Lets now turn Mercury into PLASMA! (The greens will love me.) And export it...er...somewhere.
And could we perhaps exploate our gas giants? Im enquiring into the possibilities of extreme machinery...
I doubt there will be any such technological monsters within our 500 year window except perhaps machinery sent in advance to the Centauri System clearing the way for our colonists!
The Centauri system:
Let us just for fun imagine that the Ignorant Powers of Darkness will succeed in keeping us chained and busy here on Earth, and while we happily make war on each other, the Dimwitted Monsters In The Centauri System ... in chains and brutally whipped by their insane overlord ...I sorta forgotten his name... is preparing their expansion into space... (Next stop our Sun!) Hopefully some of you have talents for story telling? Welcome to finance our rescue of mankind. Please start collecting the facts needed for the ridiculous collective pseudo fantasy:
THE COMING INTERSTELLAR WAR.
I think space is already colonised by the trinity of consciousness, energy and matter. We are already a part of that colonisation... why colonise other parts of this dimension when we have the most suitable habitat right here? I'm more focussed on encouraging people to preserve what I consider to be our natural home, rather than running for the promised intergalactic lands.(Well then Qfy... Its nice that we are now
TWO warriors a 50% rise in power!
hmmm... me and math...isnt it 100%?)
A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you.
Any ideas on intergalactic travel? (Coming soon in this thread.)
I find it much easier to believe that I will travel the intergalactic cosmos, through the ether, as an ectoplasmic entity... than to believe I will be travelling intergalactically with the aid of technology.
It's like this for me at the moment... if we cannot manage to sustain the locale in which we find ourselves.... then I'd rather not be manisfest into this physical form again. I will inform the universal mind that I do no longer wish to participate in this devolution.
I think we have a duty as a conscious pathological organism to ensure we do not contaminate innocent galactical bodies... I hope those bodies prove imune to our kind and the space that surrounds them proves too large to conduct the spreading of the Humaneae virus.
If however we evolve into a species capable of forming symbiotic relationships with our host... whilst at the same time being able to borrow enough sustenance from our host in order to eject ourselves from it into other galactic bodies, then I might head out to Gliese 667 Cc for a little gander. Though I wonder if it would grow tedious wishing everybody a happy new year every four weeks...
I will not contend with any aliens, so none will contend with one, I will accept and become whole, once whole the Universe will become my home. The way will lead my path.
I think space is already colonised by the trinity of consciousness, energy and matter. We are already a part of that colonisation... why colonise other parts of this dimension when we have the most suitable habitat right here? I'm more focussed on encouraging people to preserve what I consider to be our natural home, rather than running for the promised intergalactic lands.(Well then Qfy... Its nice that we are now
TWO warriors a 50% rise in power!
hmmm... me and math...isnt it 100%?)
A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you.
Any ideas on intergalactic travel? (Coming soon in this thread.)
I find it much easier to believe that I will travel the intergalactic cosmos, through the ether, as an ectoplasmic entity... than to believe I will be travelling intergalactically with the aid of technology.
It's like this for me at the moment... if we cannot manage to sustain the locale in which we find ourselves.... then I'd rather not be manisfest into this physical form again. I will inform the universal mind that I do no longer wish to participate in this devolution.
I think we have a duty as a conscious pathological organism to ensure we do not contaminate innocent galactical bodies... I hope those bodies prove imune to our kind and the space that surrounds them proves too large to conduct the spreading of the Humaneae virus.
If however we evolve into a species capable of forming symbiotic relationships with our host... whilst at the same time being able to borrow enough sustenance from our host in order to eject ourselves from it into other galactic bodies, then I might head out to Gliese 667 Cc for a little gander. Though I wonder if it would grow tedious wishing everybody a happy new year every four weeks...
I will not contend with any aliens, so none will contend with one, I will accept and become whole, once whole the Universe will become my home. The way will lead my path.
Yes everything you just typed yes! Immitation of Humanity came at high price NO?
YesI think space is already colonised by the trinity of consciousness, energy and matter. We are already a part of that colonisation... why colonise other parts of this dimension when we have the most suitable habitat right here? I'm more focussed on encouraging people to preserve what I consider to be our natural home, rather than running for the promised intergalactic lands.(Well then Qfy... Its nice that we are now
TWO warriors a 50% rise in power!
hmmm... me and math...isnt it 100%?)
A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you.
Any ideas on intergalactic travel? (Coming soon in this thread.)
I find it much easier to believe that I will travel the intergalactic cosmos, through the ether, as an ectoplasmic entity... than to believe I will be travelling intergalactically with the aid of technology.
It's like this for me at the moment... if we cannot manage to sustain the locale in which we find ourselves.... then I'd rather not be manisfest into this physical form again. I will inform the universal mind that I do no longer wish to participate in this devolution.
I think we have a duty as a conscious pathological organism to ensure we do not contaminate innocent galactical bodies... I hope those bodies prove imune to our kind and the space that surrounds them proves too large to conduct the spreading of the Humaneae virus.
If however we evolve into a species capable of forming symbiotic relationships with our host... whilst at the same time being able to borrow enough sustenance from our host in order to eject ourselves from it into other galactic bodies, then I might head out to Gliese 667 Cc for a little gander. Though I wonder if it would grow tedious wishing everybody a happy new year every four weeks...
I will not contend with any aliens, so none will contend with one, I will accept and become whole, once whole the Universe will become my home. The way will lead my path.
Yes everything you just typed yes! Immitation of Humanity came at high price NO?
Absolutely none of the stuff being talked about in this thread will happen in the time I have left and most likely in the time anybody else reading this has. But yes it's fun to speculate about it anyway.
Yes, that's the sad partAbsolutely none of the stuff being talked about in this thread will happen in the time I have left and most likely in the time anybody else reading this has. But yes it's fun to speculate about it anyway.But I expect to see the first Bigalow space hotel within maybe 5 years, a small moon colony maybe within 15 years, and maybe man landing on Mars within 20 years, seems feasible to me.
All our eggs in one basket is not a good idea. Natural home or not, it won't last forever and there is some chance that in the next few hundred years some very bad things could happen on earth that would set us back in a big way. I would like to be wrong about that but we are due for a large CME that could knock out our power grid for years, not to mention our complete satellite infrastructure. Then we all know the Yellowstone super volcano is over do. It would virtually take out the US completely and the rest of the world would suffer for decades. Also, who know how global warming is going to play out? I'm thinking it will be very bad for all humans for maybe centuries to come.
But que sera sera.All our eggs in one basket is not a good idea. Natural home or not, it won't last forever and there is some chance that in the next few hundred years some very bad things could happen on earth that would set us back in a big way. I would like to be wrong about that but we are due for a large CME that could knock out our power grid for years, not to mention our complete satellite infrastructure. Then we all know the Yellowstone super volcano is over do. It would virtually take out the US completely and the rest of the world would suffer for decades. Also, who know how global warming is going to play out? I'm thinking it will be very bad for all humans for maybe centuries to come.
Not everybody will be able to be evacuated... I certainly won't be offered a lift out of here so I'd appreciate it if my home is not destroyed in the search for a way out for a very privelidged few. If the earth dies, then I will go down with this ship.
If you want to rip up the ship in order to make a few life boats then all I ask is that you don't completely destroy the ship in the process... and who will you put on these life boats? women and children and a lot of sperm samples?
Theres people starving on this ship and theres a lot of nutters who are undermining the stability of this long lived vessle with careless practices. It doesn't seem rational to me expending resourses on an escape route when those resources would be better used helping the people who need them, rather than planning a highly unrealistic escape proceedure for a select few in the highly unrealistic event of a cataclysm.
As the captain I must insist on going down with the ship... what we need to put our energy into is maintaining a safe course for this ship, maintaning it's structure and stability and looking after the passengers needs. Those cowards who rip a hole in the hull out of an irrational fear that it will sink... and thereby making it sink... will find themselves adrift in the dulldrums, they will become hysterical and dehydrated and be force into cannibalism in order to delay their inevitable long drawn out and painful death.
Stop ripping up the decks or you will be made to walk the plank pirates!
Last edited by question for you; January 4th, 2013 at 01:11 PM.
I believe in survival. To be a survivor is an important attribute- but it has limits.
I've faced certain death more than once in my life. That said, given the hypothetical; If the Earth was impending doom and disaster and there were enough ships to evacuate all humans, I would like to believe I would opt out. I would choose to remain behind.
Actually I wasn't thinking about evacuation, but was more thinking about the human race going extinct problem. Let the best and brightest start new earth colonies and the rest of us can go down with ship if we have to.But que sera sera.All our eggs in one basket is not a good idea. Natural home or not, it won't last forever and there is some chance that in the next few hundred years some very bad things could happen on earth that would set us back in a big way. I would like to be wrong about that but we are due for a large CME that could knock out our power grid for years, not to mention our complete satellite infrastructure. Then we all know the Yellowstone super volcano is over do. It would virtually take out the US completely and the rest of the world would suffer for decades. Also, who know how global warming is going to play out? I'm thinking it will be very bad for all humans for maybe centuries to come.
Not everybody will be able to be evacuated... I certainly won't be offered a lift out of here so I'd appreciate it if my home is not destroyed in the search for a way out for a very privileged few. If the earth dies, then I will go down with this ship.
If you want to rip up the ship in order to make a few life boats then all I ask is that you don't completely destroy the ship in the process... and who will you put on these life boats? women and children and a lot of sperm samples?
There's people starving on this ship and there's a lot of nutters who are undermining the stability of this long lived vessel with careless practices. It doesn't seem rational to me expending resources on an escape route when those resources would be better used helping the people who need them, rather than planning a highly unrealistic escape procedure for a select few in the highly unrealistic event of a cataclysm.
As the captain I must insist on going down with the ship... what we need to put our energy into is maintaining a safe course for this ship, maintaining it's structure and stability and looking after the passengers needs. Those cowards who rip a hole in the hull out of an irrational fear that it will sink... and thereby making it sink... will find themselves adrift in the doldrums, they will become hysterical and dehydrated and be force into cannibalism in order to delay their inevitable long drawn out and painful death.
Stop ripping up the decks or you will be made to walk the plank pirates!
If any of us were good or bright then we would realise the Earth is a self sustainable habitate.Actually I wasn't thinking about evacuation, but was more thinking about the human race going extinct problem. Let the best and brightest start new earth colonies and the rest of us can go down with ship if we have to.
There is the sun burning out issue... but do we really know with absolute certainty that the sun will become a red giant and die? What if the sun could potentially be a self sustainable system? it's possible isn't it? if not then what if the sun gets a load more material from space to sustain itself for ever? What if the Earth as part of the solar sytem will never be drawn itno the sun? what if the moon keeps us constantly away? what if the is a 300billion year cycle that refreshes the whole system? we just dont know for sure do we?
All this earth dying thing simply doesn't bear thinking about!
I reckon the chances are civilisations greater than ours will come and go many times befor the earth stops being a habitable environment... It's great that we can consider these implications, but let the fear not be such that we manisfest this scary prospect through our desperation to avoid it.
After all, we either live on in a different dimension after life, in which case it doesn't matter... or we dont and we all die, in which case it doesnt matter. Lets just preserve what we have for as long as possible. Right?
All this adolescent joy riding might be useing up the oil that our descendents will need to get off this rock! Let us preserve this earth, for it might never die as long as we dont kill it. I don't think science can yet prove otherwise.
I'm not suggesting we don't do our best to take care of what we already have. But I like the idea of learning more about our universe and having more than one place in it to live.If any of us were good or bright then we would realize the Earth is a self sustainable habitat.Actually I wasn't thinking about evacuation, but was more thinking about the human race going extinct problem. Let the best and brightest start new earth colonies and the rest of us can go down with ship if we have to.
There is the sun burning out issue... but do we really know with absolute certainty that the sun will become a red giant and die? What if the sun could potentially be a self sustainable system? it's possible isn't it? if not then what if the sun gets a load more material from space to sustain itself for ever? What if the Earth as part of the solar system will never be drawn into the sun? what if the moon keeps us constantly away? what if the is a 300billion year cycle that refreshes the whole system? we just don't know for sure do we?
All this earth dying thing simply doesn't bear thinking about!
I reckon the chances are civilizations greater than ours will come and go many times before the earth stops being a habitable environment... It's great that we can consider these implications, but let the fear not be such that we manifest this scary prospect through our desperation to avoid it.
After all, we either live on in a different dimension after life, in which case it doesn't matter... or we don't and we all die, in which case it doesn't matter. Lets just preserve what we have for as long as possible. Right?
All this adolescent joy riding might be using up the oil that our descendents will need to get off this rock! Let us preserve this earth, for it might never die as long as we don't kill it. I don't think science can yet prove otherwise.
I can see the appeal for sure. The universe is like a big easter egg hunt. I can see some potential problems with have two or more colonies simultaneously.
Did you see that movie about the Nazi's living on the dark side of the Moon and coming back to conqour us all?
Yes I was wondering what they were doing up there all this time? But I have to tell you I'm just not very worried about it.I can see the appeal for sure. The universe is like a big easter egg hunt. I can see some potential problems with have two or more colonies simultaneously.
Did you see that movie about the Nazi's living on the dark side of the Moon and coming back to conqour us all?
What is the right thing to do? It depends on the context:
If theres an immediate threat lika a car that will hit you unless you move you will find yourself moving out of the way unless your children must be moved out of harms way first. But if theres no immediate threat to react to you look inwards: What do I want to do you ask yourself...but then the lady of your heart suddenly tells you that she wants go swimming and you put back the book you REALLY long to read and go fetch your swimming suit.
No one in here wants to extinguish life on earth... we all want to protect and improve the conditions on Earth...
so shall we give away our money for saving the tigers and give our home to some homeless beggar?
It sounds somewhat stupid doesent it?
Now somebody must save us! Instead of saving someone else.
What was gained?
Suppose we are attacked by aliens intending to make us their dinner, we raise the gun and suddenly we see our baby crawl out on the road where a car will kill it ...shall we save our baby so the alien can eat it alive or kill the alien and let our baby die under the wheels of the car?
Whats the point of improving conditions on the Earth if we cant stop a threat from killing all life on Earth?
I honestly think we can do both! We need now to summon the needed forces for doing the right thing.
In doing so the conditions will improve and also make it possible to protect the Earth from threats!
We must study the question from all perspectives...the different time windows: 5 months 5 years 50...5000 and so on. And check our insides for what we are able to do right now and tomorrow! We are here in the thread.
Lets be scientific!
copy to be edited later
We probably wont have to...within the 500 year window we should be able to construct both the Shield and the Space Elevator.Actually I wasn't thinking about evacuation, but was more thinking about the human race going extinct problem. Let the best and brightest start new earth colonies and the rest of us can go down with ship if we have to.
Have the greens been able to make a fool out of you? The Earth is dependent on its environment! Dont forget that! And dont spin fairytales about the environment! The sun will swallow the earth when it turns into a red giant. Its not a very long time to wait... only some five billion years I think. Normal people have difficulties in estimating risks...consult scientists or insurance companies ... stop dreamingNo! Its a finite system.
Could happen... but at that time the Aliens have turned our Solar system into Plasma to feed their own sun.Again: the destiny of the Earth is Plasma!Plasma.Will we or the aliens benefit?
Lets make sure!
I think its you being desperate in trying not to face factsAll this earth dying thing simply doesn't bear thinking about!
I reckon the chances are civilisations greater than ours will come and go many times befor the earth stops being a habitable environment... It's great that we can consider these implications, but let the fear not be such that we manisfest this scary prospect through our desperation to avoid it.
You recommend us to suicide right now to find out? Too drastic in my taste.Very good idea...but let us preserve it also for our children... and their children... their childrens children ...please let not the chain of life ever be broken!
Your personal time window is too narrow. Please dont gamble away the lives of our descendants!
All this adolescent joy riding might be using up the oil that our descendents will need to get off this rock! Let us preserve this earth, for it might never die as long as we dont kill it. I don't think science can yet prove otherwise.
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