Thread: ESP: Extra sensory perception? Do you believe it?

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by sculptor

...(wild guess du jour)
ain't no such thing as supernatural

it's just a lazy mental shortcut, kinda like using profanity
'tis the gift of a lazy mind
...

You say that you do not believe in the supernatural and that you assume there is a natural explanation that we cannot know about or cannot see.
.

"cannot know" ---------------whoa bro
not me
never me
..............
I just see people jumping to conclusions(forming opinions) based on their pet ideas with damned poor research
and little or no real knowledge.

If the testing methodology is flawed, then one can make it say damned near anything one wants.

I much prefer real world testing to find real world information.
Anyone who holds to an opinion derived without knowledge has no ability to learn.

such a pity

OK

how was the australian barrel test structured?
how did they get their "dowsers"
who were these "dowsers"
what did they normally do for a living
(if well drillers, how deep, how did they charge for their work?)

The "test itself was lazy, easy, cheap, and flawed.
one must wonder at the whole testing proceedure.

I doubt the claims of the "testers" every bit as much as you doubt the claims of the dowser/claimants.

Show me some real (well crafted) tests with real results.
Anything less is poorly formed opinions from prejudiced perspectives.

and, Anyone who would form an opinion from those cited "tests" ain't actually looking with an open scientific mind.

sculptor

In your desire to see definitive results, you are asking for perfection. Perfection is rare in this imperfect world. Instead we do what we can with the resources we have.

If a government decided to spend millions of dollars conducting the "perfect" experiment to test dowsing, then we might get what you want. But no government with millions of dollars is involved. Instead, dedicated experimenters with limited resources set up experiments to achieve indicative results.

This has been done, and the indication is that dowsing as a talent is very, very unlikely.

The test carried out by the Aussi Skeptics was devised by their own people, and I do not have those full details, since I was not there. The reason I know what I know is because I went to a lecture presented by one of the Australian Skeptics. The dowsers they used were professional dowsers who made money with their dubious services. I think it is probable that the dowsers fully believed in their own talents, because, after all, they always find water. Because of that belief, they had no hesitation being part of the experiment, in that they had not doubt they would prove their abilities.

However, there is a big difference between practicing something in an uncontrolled way, and doing the same thing under controlled experimental conditions. They failed. Just like all the alternative medical practitioners who fail when their methods are tested with randomised, placebo controlled, double blind clinical trials. When you get away from the careless world of "It seems to work", and into the world of rigorous scientific testing, the bullsh!t gets revealed.

I have to add that the Aussis who did this test were not the only ones. I am aware of a similar set of tests, with a different but equally rigorous test protocol being done in South Africa, with the same results. I am willing to be that, with enough research, I could find other tests done on dowsers. To the best of my knowledge, no proper scientific testing has shown any sign that dowsing is real.

The proper and rational conclusion is that the probability of such a 'special' talent existing is very low.

Originally Posted by sculptor

..............
I just see people jumping to conclusions(forming opinions) based on their pet ideas with damned poor research
and little or no real knowledge.

This is true. But you've been doing it.
You said, that we are all blind people- that we cannot see the actuality. You have proposed that the testing is flawed against dowsers, of all things. It was only an example you provided, though and the implication is that you believe the testing is flawed for many other things that we attritbute to the supernatural.

Again, your personal bias is toward what we attribute to the supernatural and instead of examining the evidence- claim that the testing is flawed simply because again and again and again, they show nothing that suggests something more significant is involved.

So on this topic, ESP is being tested by flawed means?
Is that how to address well over 100 years worth of consistent negative results to constant testing?
It is not about defending the results, but rather, to making excuses for why ESP (or dowsing) consistently and constantly fails all tests.

Originally Posted by skeptic

sculptor

The test carried out by the Aussi Skeptics was devised by their own people, and I do not have those full details, ...
The dowsers they used were professional dowsers who made money with their dubious services.

You're guessing here?

Originally Posted by skeptic

However, there is a big difference between practicing something in an uncontrolled way, and doing the same thing under controlled experimental conditions. They failed. ...
To the best of my knowledge, no proper scientific testing has shown any sign that dowsing is real.

The proper and rational conclusion is that the probability of such a 'special' talent existing is very low.

rational
only if
viewed from a pre-existing prejudice

without an unflawed experiment, the best we could hope for was conjecture
science must adhere to precision
or become the tool of the unscrupled
...............
ergo
no opinion is warranted
.................
we ain't gonna get anywhere here, without "real world testing results"
.................................................. .................................................. .....................

ESP is a broad(meaningless?) set of (pseudo?)phenomena
anyone else got any others within that set they'd care to bring out?

Originally Posted by Neverfly

- claim that the testing is flawed simply because again and again and again, they show nothing that suggests something more significant is involved.

I claim the testing is flawed because the testing is flawed.

I could give a damn less as to whether 0%, 2% 29% 76% or all "dowsers" could actually deliver on a consistently better than random basis.

No one here has presented a study with a real world randomization counterpointing the skills(?) of a dowser.

I'm interested in the methodology.
and I proposed a testable null hypothesis
really simple stuff

But
yer entitled to your opinion

Originally Posted by sculptor

You're guessing here?

No. My information comes from a lecture, and my memory is not that bad.

And sculptor - scientific results do not need to be perfect, and they rarely, if ever, are.
Scientific results are often expressed as probabilities. You may notice that is how I state the conclusions, also. The probability of dowsing being a genuine 'special' ability is very low.

by guessing, i meant the last part

The dowsers they used were professional dowsers who made money with their dubious services

yes
the probability part
i appreciate that

Originally Posted by skeptic

The word 'extra' means what usage causes it to mean. In the normal usage of the word in the ESP context, it means something outside normal physics and biology. So if it turned out that some humans could see ultra-violet lights, as birds can, that would not be ESP, because it is part of normal biology. Ditto an electrical sense similar to that possessed by a hammerhead shark, or sonar like a bat etc. ESP, in the normal meaning of the word, is sensory input from a source not known in normal biology and physics.

Does that make it clear?

extra sense..
hear,see,smell,touch,taste..aything else is extra...
so if we had atributes that mimicked a creature, in the sense of humans, it would be an extra sense, and would qualify for the Extra
Sensory Perception label..(as strictly defined by the words)

ESP is associated with mind reading..
telekinetic is being able to move things..

does ESP need a 'physcic' ability?

could 'cold reading' qualify as 'extra'?
I couldn't do it..maybe if i had idetic(sp?) memory..
but some ppl do not need to know how to 'cold read' a person,to be able to be able to read their minds,(to an extent).
they just 'sense' what the person is thinking,not knowing that they may actually be 'cold reading' a person(and i mean being able to interpret facial expressions and body language).

(wouldn't this also speak to a persons ability to percieve, on some level, ones own subconscience?)

what would qualify a sense as 'extra'?

ESP, if it exists at all would be one of the few sensory abilities we have. Whatever the source, the "percept" is a construct of the sensory mind which consists of the mirror neural network.

wiki,

Quote:Physiology

Main article: Sensory system

A sensory system is a part of the nervous system responsible for processing sensory information. A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception. Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). It has been suggested that the immune system is an overlooked sensory modlality.[41] In short, senses are transducers from the physical world to the realm of the mind. The receptive field is the specific part of the world to which a receptor organ and receptor cells respond. For instance, the part of the world an eye can see, is its receptive field; the light that each rod or cone can see, is its receptive field.[42] Receptive fields have been identified for the visual system, auditory system and somatosensory system, so far.

Parapsychology: Criticism and controversy about Extra Sensory Perception.

However, IMO, ESP is very much related to the mirror neural system of the brain. If we consider that there are many animals who exhibit ESP from extremely subtle atmospheric changes. A cat receives pressure waves through its whiskers. Mosquitos begin to feed when atmospheric pressure changes.
Flowers "go to sleep" (close) at dusk. They "sense" the light and respond appropriately from hardwired mirror responses.

The point is that the brain (observer) perceives a change, however subtle and (projects) a symbolic translation into the mind "as best it can".

ESP (extra sensory perception).

Skepticism
Among scientists in the National Academy of Sciences, 96% described themselves as "skeptical" of ESP; 4% believed in psi and 10% felt that parapsychological research should be encouraged.[25] The National Academy of Sciences had previously sponsored the Enhancing Human Performance report on mental development programs, which was critical of parapsychology.[26]

Skeptics claim that there is a lack of a viable theory of the mechanism behind ESP, and that there are historical cases in which flaws have been discovered in the experimental design of parapsychological studies.[27]

Critics of experimental parapsychology hold that there are no consistent and agreed-upon standards by which "ESP powers" may be tested. It is argued that when psychics are challenged by skeptics and fail to prove their alleged powers, they assign all sorts of reasons for their failure, such as that the skeptic is affecting the experiment with "negative energy"or their cellphone is causing interference. Claims of successful use of ESP are viewed by most skeptics as examples of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

Believing is like running, there's no running without legs,

What about an amputee who dreams of running? Is that a belief? Is it ESP?
IMO, beliefs (perceptions real and unreal) are constructs of the mind created by the mirror neural network in the brain. The mirror function begins immediately after the organism is able to process sensory input, but the information is not always correct and creates a false illusion.

Color word illusions

http://www.123opticalillusions.com/p...ing_Dancer.php

http://www.123opticalillusions.com/p...lac_chaser.php

they just 'sense' what the person is thinking,not knowing that they may actually be 'cold reading' a person(and i mean being able to interpret facial expressions and body language).
...
what would qualify a sense as 'extra'?

There are already 'senses' classified that aren't as straightforward as sight or taste. Proprioception, the sensations of knowing where body parts are in relation to other body parts is the obvious one. And this can be messed up by either physical changes, amputation of a limb and the occasional 'phantom limb syndrome', or by brain damage and neurological conditions.

As for heightened perception of body language and facial expression, I expect that we will eventually be able to accurately identify the mechanisms and measure, and therefore train, such abilities in suitable people in much the same way as we now do with peripheral vision.

'Extra'? Anything that we eventually cannot map onto neurological networks or brain function. Just because we can't do this for some people's unusual abilities now doesn't mean that we won't when we get better knowledge and build better equipment to investigate and develop that knowledge.

Several people are trying to apply logic to the definition of 'extra'. That is not how language works. There are heaps of illogical words. How did we get 'butterfly', which is not a fly and contains no butter?

The meaning of words come from usage, not logic. So the meaning of 'extra' in ESP is what usage causes it to mean. Usage does not imply some kind of normal or natural sense that we just have not yet discovered. Usage implies some kind of supernatural sense. That is what 'extra' means.

Telepathy fits that, since there is nothing in biology or physics that would permit telepathy, except under extremely limited conditions.

Originally Posted by adelady

they just 'sense' what the person is thinking,not knowing that they may actually be 'cold reading' a person(and i mean being able to interpret facial expressions and body language).
...
what would qualify a sense as 'extra'?

There are already 'senses' classified that aren't as straightforward as sight or taste. Proprioception, the sensations of knowing where body parts are in relation to other body parts is the obvious one. And this can be messed up by either physical changes, amputation of a limb and the occasional 'phantom limb syndrome', or by brain damage and neurological conditions.

As for heightened perception of body language and facial expression, I expect that we will eventually be able to accurately identify the mechanisms and measure, and therefore train, such abilities in suitable people in much the same way as we now do with peripheral vision.

'Extra'? Anything that we eventually cannot map onto neurological networks or brain function. Just because we can't do this for some people's unusual abilities now doesn't mean that we won't when we get better knowledge and build better equipment to investigate and develop that knowledge.

Plants have some sophisticated perception abilities.

Thigmomorphogenesis: a complex plant response to mechano-stimulation

Senses are used to percieve the world. Extra-Sensory perception implies perceiving of something beyond the senses you already have, therefore extra-sensory perception is impossible as it implies percieving something that you cannot percieve. Kind of like expecting a potato to know it is a potato.

Originally Posted by Quantime

Senses are used to percieve the world. Extra-Sensory perception implies perceiving of something beyond the senses you already have, therefore extra-sensory perception is impossible as it implies percieving something that you cannot percieve. Kind of like expecting a potato to know it is a potato.

<Image: Mr potatoe head facepalm >

Originally Posted by NMSquirrel

Originally Posted by Quantime

Senses are used to percieve the world. Extra-Sensory perception implies perceiving of something beyond the senses you already have, therefore extra-sensory perception is impossible as it implies percieving something that you cannot percieve. Kind of like expecting a potato to know it is a potato.

<Image: Mr potatoe head facepalm >

Joke or passive aggressive?

Originally Posted by Quantime

Originally Posted by NMSquirrel

Originally Posted by Quantime

Senses are used to percieve the world. Extra-Sensory perception implies perceiving of something beyond the senses you already have, therefore extra-sensory perception is impossible as it implies percieving something that you cannot percieve. Kind of like expecting a potato to know it is a potato.

<Image: Mr potatoe head facepalm >

Joke or passive aggressive?

joke..actually spent some time looking for the image but couldnt find it..(thats the first thing that pooped into my head..(spelling intentional))

Originally Posted by skeptic

sigurd

You are asking me to have an open mind. However, I remind you of the skeptic's dictum : "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

When enough testing is done, then it is time to form a conclusion. The conclusion is this case is that the probability that some dowsing claims might be true, is very low.

I tried to find the post where I told you to keep your mind open, but nope!
I cant find it so I dont know how to react... What position to defend. Youre probably correct in your estimation of probability here. Checking my memory I dont find any notation reminding me to tell you your too close minded...so damn the torpedoes, straight ahead man!

Originally Posted by Unknown

Yesterday I had a pyschology class. Our professor asked each individual if we believed in ESP. A number of students in my class were astounded by the question and immediately answered with "No, ESP is not real, It's probably fake". Our professor then told us that he would prove to us that it is real. He then gave us a set of blank flash cards and asked all the individuals in the class to write their names and something about them that the professor does not know about. We put them in an envelop, and without looking the flash cards. The teacher started to say names, and what was exactly written in each card. It was impressive. Now I'm asking all you psychology students out there, is this guessing game real? Is it magic or is actual ESP.

Thank you for reading my long message

Cheers =]

Hi Unknown. ESP is real at least telephaty. I do know someone that transmits everything he ears and reads (it´s involuntary). He has a B.Psych degree and Linux diploma. He is interested in meeting your professor, is there an e-mail adress that the professor can be contacted? In what country is he in? Are there ethic procedures where you live when it comes to testing?

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I know it is real.

Sorry, not giving any details.

You should keep an open mind. There are people who have gone to university and did not believe on ESP, tried to find logical explanations and found out that some things science can not explain it.

KalEl

ESP is and always has been bullsh!t.

The retired stage magician, James Randi, has a one million dollar prize for anyone who can demonstrate it under properly controlled conditions acceptable to science. Dozens of wannabes have tried. None have succeeded.

Originally Posted by Steve555

I do not precisely know what is meant by ESP. But I do know that when I meet someone I know instantly weather this person is ok with me or not.
Also I notice as of now, that I did start this message with "i". That is just jabberwokky, but what is not total poppycock is the fact that I hear the low resonance of a truck miles away, hear the bass of the airconditioning amplified in the building where i am in. I am aware of the tension in a room right away and know who is and who isn't willing to communicate. I can see someone that is lying and the problem is that most people who lie to me sense that i know they are. That makes it all the more awkward.
Do not perceive it to be a sixth sense, cause it is not. As for the intense bass manifestations and low frequency sounds: check a doctor because it might very well be a brain tumor. Oversensitive people just do exist. I can not stand loud tv's, no maddening crowds, and sometimes even a voice sounds to me like nails on a chalkboard
I do not believe in paranormal perception. To my knowledge no crime has ever been solved by means of that. I dare people with ESP to show us what ever happened to Jimmy Hoffa. Or whatever.

Open mind. Some people did not ask to have ESP they just have it, and they are not looking for fame or to prove anything. Some people are scientific about analyzing what is happen to them and the scientific method is what exactly answers that there is something paranormal going on.

Originally Posted by vash31

Skeptic, I understand and generally agree; your evidence is valid.

I just think we must be careful of muddling our own inferences/intuitions with scientifically verifiable claims.

Practically speaking, what reason is there to use the phrase 'ESP does not exist' instead of the more precise 'There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of ESP'?

There are books that claim that claim that there is scientific evidence... some people rather keep their abilities to themselves... and been a rat lab may not be very nice for the rat...

IMO, what is often mistaken for ESP is the "mirror neural network function", a shared experience which seems to be uniquely shared at that moment, but actually appears to be a fundamental environmental cognitive power shared by most all sentient organisms.

Originally Posted by KalEl

There are books that claim that claim that there is scientific evidence... some people rather keep their abilities to themselves... and been a rat lab may not be very nice for the rat...

There are very, very few people who would turn down a million dollars. It is easy. Demonstrate ESP and you get a million dollars.
Challenge Info

No one has ever won it. That is very, very, very strong evidence that ESP is bullsh!t.

Originally Posted by Quantime

There is no such thing as ESP. If anyone or group of people say otherwise prove it to them and say there is only one type of sixth sense:

I see braindead people.

Hi Quantine! Imagine that you actually find out you have some ESP, would you spend time trying to prove it to every non believer... that could be exhausting... and if you prove it do you really wan´t to be the center of all the attention?

Originally Posted by skeptic

Sculptor

There is no point being temperate about idiotic ideas. Outspoken is the best way.

Psychic abilities have been the subject of intensive scientific testing for decades, and a lot continues to this day. If the testing is rigorous, the results are negative. Every time. Every damn time!

Wishful thinking does not make it correct. The short answer is that there is no ESP*. There are no psychic abilities. There are only idiots who delude themselves into thinking they are psychic. Plus a bunch of swindlers and hoaxers who screw anyone naive enough to believe them.

Science is about testing and evidence. The testing has been done and the evidence says very clearly - no ESP!!




*OK. I agree that this is not a very scientific way of putting it. I should say something like : proper scientific testing demonstrates a low probability of ESP being real. Or something like that. But I want to drive the point home. So there!

Some people where called crazy because they said the the earth is round, when they said they could create a thing called electricity, when they said they could find a way to fly. But today everyone knows the world is a globe, you used electricity to post your message, if you have money you can buy a plane ticket.

Originally Posted by Strange

Hmmm... Really? So we shouldn't say "there is no such thing as father Christmas/Voldermort/Daleks" (even though we know who invented them) because they might possibly exist? Really?

I came up with a novel (I think) argument that ESP doesn't exist ...

If ESP existed then presumably it would provide an advantage to those individuals that had it. In which case it would be selected for. In which case it would be common. And we would probably have ESP championships where people show off the skillz.

On the other hand, if something that is so subtle and hard to detect that it might as well not exist ...


Also, it isn't just "absence of evidence"; it is stronger than that: every case where people claim to have psychic abilities have been shown to be false. It's not just that we can't find a trace of it; it is that every "trace" turns out to be lies, self-delusion, errors, etc. If this isn't evidence against, I don't know what would be.

Well there is a book that you may wan´t to read. I hope there is an English translation. The title in spanish is "Los Poderes Ocultos de La Mente" by Enrique de Vicente. It scientifically analyzes ESP phenomena.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Some people where called crazy because they said the the earth is round, when they said they could create a thing called electricity, when they said they could find a way to fly. But today everyone knows the world is a globe, you used electricity to post your message, if you have money you can buy a plane ticket.

The idea that people thought the world was flat is a myth. The spherical nature of the world was known as far back as 500 BC.

The craziest ideas are those which science proves to be correct, like quantum entanglement. However, ESP is not among them, and is demonstrated false each time a suitably rigorous test is applied.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Some people where called crazy because they said the the earth is round, when they said they could create a thing called electricity, when they said they could find a way to fly.

How often were they called "crazy?" More importantly, who called them "crazy?" Do you actually know- or are you just throwing this out there because during your life, you've heard this claim made by others?

Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the globe about 2,000 years ago. Scholars have known the Earth was round for a very long time. Only the very ignorant and uneducated believed the Earth was flat.

Flight has been known about since the dawn of mankind. To claim that people laughed at the idea of flight is utterly absurd and for one very, very basic reason: We've been watching big ol' birds do it our entire existence.
Humans have dreamed of finding a way to make ourselves fly for as long as recorded history. Myths are filled with it. People with wax wings or wings made onto a pair of shoes.
Leonardo from Vinci put a great deal of thought into it centuries ago and he followed after those that had done the same a thousand years before, huddled away in the ancient Library of Alexandria.
No, only the ignorant and uneducated might scoff at the idea, but knowledgeable people knew better- they simply had not figured out a workable method during their time.
And name someone who laughed at the Wright brothers? After-all, they were not the only ones, at the time, testing machine designs. It was, in fact, a bit of a race. And the Wrights were first to make a long enough successful glide to gain recognition.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Well there is a book that you may wan´t to read. I hope there is an English translation. The title in spanish is "Los Poderes Ocultos de La Mente" by Enrique de Vicente. It scientifically analyzes ESP phenomena.

No, it doesn't. It promotes a belief with little evidence.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Well there is a book that you may wan´t to read. I hope there is an English translation. The title in spanish is "Los Poderes Ocultos de La Mente" by Enrique de Vicente. It scientifically analyzes ESP phenomena.

You say you have a degree in psychology: apply it to yourself and your beliefs.

Originally Posted by skeptic

KalEl

ESP is and always has been bullsh!t.

The retired stage magician, James Randi, has a one million dollar prize for anyone who can demonstrate it under properly controlled conditions acceptable to science. Dozens of wannabes have tried. None have succeeded.

Just because someone has tried and did not succeed does not imply that there is no ESP. I know someone who could try but he does not want that much attention, the money he has is enough. Well I respect your point of view. Is like arguing about believing in God, either you do or you don´t. But the truth science nor religion explains our origins to the point. The big bang created the universe, but where the explosion comes from? God created all but who created God? It is the same with ESP, I believe it exists and I have prove of it, but not really going to spent that much time trying to prove it, hopefully one day you will experience it yourself (having abilities) or you will meet someone who does.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by KalEl

Well there is a book that you may wan´t to read. I hope there is an English translation. The title in spanish is "Los Poderes Ocultos de La Mente" by Enrique de Vicente. It scientifically analyzes ESP phenomena.

You say you have a degree in psychology: apply it to yourself and your beliefs.

Yes I did a B. Psych degree that's why is why it was hard to believe at first. I spent years trying to explain some ESP phenomena with data collected in a scientific manner but I was way of course. But actually I think that most students get introduced to studying cases of ESP on introduction to Psychology. Most books have the subject of Twins who seam to be able to feel pain at the same time, even the ones who were separated at birth, but this is usually talked very briefly. If you want real study on ESP start with J.B. Rhine.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Just because someone has tried and did not succeed does not imply that there is no ESP.

So you know nothing about weight of probability?

I know someone who could try but he does not want that much attention, the money he has is enough.

Plus the fact that he'd fail ignominiously.

Well I respect your point of view. Is like arguing about believing in God, either you do or you don´t. But the truth science nor religion explains our origins to the point. The big bang created the universe, but where the explosion comes from? God created all but who created God?

Yep, but the MAIN difference is that one view is valid and the other isn't.

It is the same with ESP, I believe it exists and I have prove of it

Er, no you don't. You have no proof at all.

but not really going to spent that much time trying to prove it, hopefully one day you will experience it yourself (having abilities) or you will meet someone who does.

In other words "La la la I can't hear you".
Way to go.

Yes I did a B. Psych degree that's why is why it was hard to believe at first.

Then, like I said - you should apply your science to yourself.

I spent years trying to explain some ESP phenomena with data collected in a scientific manner but I was way of course.

Bzzzt error! What you SHOULD have been doing was to establish whether those claims were in fact valid. Trying to explain something that doesn't exist is futile.

If you want real study on ESP start with J.B. Rhine.

The famous dishonest crackpot? Why would I bother?

Originally Posted by KalEl

Is like arguing about believing in God, either you do or you don´t. But the truth science nor religion explains our origins to the point. The big bang created the universe, but where the explosion comes from? God created all but who created God?

If you remove God from history except for the one thing unexplained- why bother? It means only that "God created Big Bang" and then had nothing to do with the Universe ever after. It detracts from the whole point of believing in some deity in the first place.

It's similar, here- as you say. You believe in it in but you cannot support that belief with actual evidence. So you shirk having to support it. Yet, it's a belief so far removed as to make ESP useless anyway for you to TRY to show that it's possible to exist- much less whether or not it actually does.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by KalEl

Some people where called crazy because they said the the earth is round, when they said they could create a thing called electricity, when they said they could find a way to fly.

How often were they called "crazy?" More importantly, who called them "crazy?" Do you actually know- or are you just throwing this out there because during your life, you've heard this claim made by others?

Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the globe about 2,000 years ago. Scholars have known the Earth was round for a very long time. Only the very ignorant and uneducated believed the Earth was flat.

Flight has been known about since the dawn of mankind. To claim that people laughed at the idea of flight is utterly absurd and for one very, very basic reason: We've been watching big ol' birds do it our entire existence.
Humans have dreamed of finding a way to make ourselves fly for as long as recorded history. Myths are filled with it. People with wax wings or wings made onto a pair of shoes.
Leonardo from Vinci put a great deal of thought into it centuries ago and he followed after those that had done the same a thousand years before, huddled away in the ancient Library of Alexandria.
No, only the ignorant and uneducated might scoff at the idea, but knowledgeable people knew better- they simply had not figured out a workable method during their time.
And name someone who laughed at the Wright brothers? After-all, they were not the only ones, at the time, testing machine designs. It was, in fact, a bit of a race. And the Wrights were first to make a long enough successful glide to gain recognition.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Well there is a book that you may wan´t to read. I hope there is an English translation. The title in spanish is "Los Poderes Ocultos de La Mente" by Enrique de Vicente. It scientifically analyzes ESP phenomena.

No, it doesn't. It promotes a belief with little evidence.

I don´t know what is your point. You just said the same thing I did but twisted around. You want me to name names, the catholic church forced Galileo to renounce his believes that today we know to be true. Thomas Edison invented the light bulb and failed many times until he could prove it could be done, by whom I read history I did not memorize the names of who did not believe he could do it, history remembers people who accomplish things not the ones that spend all there energy proving that is not possible. But until a certain point we agree that in the past things to have been said to be false and today are considered valid. It is the same with ESP, and I have no interest in be one of the ones who prove it is real.

Originally Posted by KalEl

It is the same with ESP

Assumption.
And not only an unsupported one but also one that has the weight of evidence against it.

and I have no interest in be one of the ones who prove it is real.

So you just want to be able to post (and believe) nonsense without being required to justify it?
Isn't that that somewhat dishonest and more than somewhat unscientific?

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by KalEl

Is like arguing about believing in God, either you do or you don´t. But the truth science nor religion explains our origins to the point. The big bang created the universe, but where the explosion comes from? God created all but who created God?

If you remove God from history except for the one thing unexplained- why bother? It means only that "God created Big Bang" and then had nothing to do with the Universe ever after. It detracts from the whole point of believing in some deity in the first place.

It's similar, here- as you say. You believe in it in but you cannot support that belief with actual evidence. So you shirk having to support it. Yet, it's a belief so far removed as to make ESP useless anyway for you to TRY to show that it's possible to exist- much less whether or not it actually does.

I did not quite get what you say about God creating the Big Bang. I never eared of such a thing but I do believe in God, and I do believe in Science... I do have evidence that extra sensory perception is real, I just don´t have a need to be the hero or try to put my mark in history. If you don´t believe in it is your problem not mine. But I do respect your views, I believe that you never had a chance to develop your abilities (many people believe that all humans are capable of manifesting ESP capabilities, they need training, others are natural) or to feel the touch of someone who has the abilities, I can not blame you for that.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I don´t know what is your point. You just said the same thing I did but twisted around.

I did not say the same thing you said- not even slightly. You said, "they" laughed at people for talking of round Earth and Flight.
Which is nothing like what I said.

Originally Posted by KalEl

You want me to name names, the catholic church forced Galileo to renounce his believes that today we know to be true.

Interesting example... Because Galileo said the Earth was Round, as well. The Church meanwhile, promoted a flat Earth because their holy book said it was flat. Funny... No one was laughing and the ignorant, superstitious and self righteous were wrong- the educated was correct.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Thomas Edison invented the light bulb and failed many times until he could prove it could be done, by whom I read history I did not memorize the names of who did not believe he could do it, history remembers people who accomplish things not the ones that spend all there energy proving that is not possible.

Absolute nonsense. Edison did not invent the light bulb, he patented and marketed his design first. He was one of MANY people that made light bulbs. And again- no one laughed at Edison- you say you cannot name names because you pulled the claim out of your backside. You're just making up your arguments as you go without any regard to validity or accuracy.

Originally Posted by KalEl

But until a certain point we agree that in the past things to have been said to be false and today are considered valid. It is the same with ESP, and I have no interest in be one of the ones who prove it is real.

Yes, and it's been said ESP is real by the ignorant, superstitious and self righteous- but we are well aware today that it's failed every test given. Everything else, such as someone doesn't WANT to take the test is just the same tired lame excuses.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I did not quite get what you say about God creating the Big Bang.

You suggested that with an unknown origin of the Universe, that it's possible that God diddit. You went on to compare this to ESP. Do not act like you did not suggest it.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I do have evidence that extra sensory perception is real

Present your evidence or stop making bold claims that you refuse to support with evidence- it's a science forum, not a belief forum.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I can not blame you for that.

I can blame you for promoting ignorance. I will continue to stand against it.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by KalEl

It is the same with ESP

Assumption.
And not only an unsupported one but also one that has the weight of evidence against it.

and I have no interest in be one of the ones who prove it is real.

So you just want to be able to post (and believe) nonsense without being required to justify it?
Isn't that that somewhat dishonest and more than somewhat unscientific?

Maybe I should not have posted the message. I´m sorry for that, I was not expecting that many reactions. I did graduated from university, I do remember that I had to write papers that I had to find pros and cons and reach a conclusion. However the subject (ESP) is so vast and complex that I would not be able to prove it in a forum, but I did mention a book that does that it explains it scientifically (Los poderes Ocultos de lamente by Enrique de Vicente), I can not write a thesis in a forum. The scientific part of me is the part that actually save me from the assumption that I had, that I was losing my marbles, think God that I did psychology.

Originally Posted by KalEl

thank God that I did psychology.

Thank God I'm not your patient.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I did not quite get what you say about God creating the Big Bang. I never eared of such a thing

Then try reading. Deism and/ or the etiological argument.

but I do believe in God, and I do believe in Science.

Some sort of conflict there. At what point do you decide one of those beliefs is wrong?

I do have evidence that extra sensory perception is real

No you don't.

I just don´t have a need to be the hero or try to put my mark in history. If you don´t believe in it is your problem not mine.

Back to your wishing to be able to promote nonsense without being called on it I see.

But I do respect your views

Obviously not.

I believe that you never had a chance to develop your abilities

On the contrary, YOU are the one that hasn't developed your abilities - critical faculties, reasoning and logic for a start.

(many people believe that all humans are capable of manifesting ESP capabilities, they need training, others are natural) or to feel the touch of someone who has the abilities

Specious rubbish.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Just because someone has tried and did not succeed does not imply that there is no ESP. I know someone who could try but he does not want that much attention, the money he has is enough.

And you think every single person who thinks they have ESP is also indifferent to money? That seems rather implausible. Almost as implausible as ESP.

If ESP exists, why isn't it useful? Do you know anyone who doesn't bother with a telephone or email because they just use ESP instead? Do you know anyone who has been rescued from an accident because they "called" the rescue services using ESP?

Is there any practical evidence for ESP beyond the fact that some people believe they have it?

Is like arguing about believing in God, either you do or you don´t.

Because God is, by definition, undetectable. However, ESP if it were real would be detectable. Do you have an explanation for that?

It is the same with ESP, I believe it exists and I have prove of it, but not really going to spent that much time trying to prove it,

If you have proof, why not present it?

If you don't want to present proof, why keep making unsupported claims about your beliefs?

Originally Posted by KalEl

I´m sorry for that, I was not expecting that many reactions.

This is a science forum. Make ridiculous and unbelievable claims and people are going to ask for evidence. That's just the way it is.

If you want people to just believe everything you say then you are in the wrong place.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I don´t know what is your point. You just said the same thing I did but twisted around. You want me to name names, the catholic church forced Galileo to renounce his believes that today we know to be true. Thomas Edison invented the light bulb and failed many times until he could prove it could be done, by whom I read history I did not memorize the names of who did not believe he could do it, history remembers people who accomplish things not the ones that spend all there energy proving that is not possible. But until a certain point we agree that in the past things to have been said to be false and today are considered valid. It is the same with ESP, and I have no interest in be one of the ones who prove it is real.

The difference between Thomas Edison and ESP is the fact that at night we can turn on a light bulb. Yet there is not a single unbiased and verified case of an effective ESP function, which has saved a life or prevented a plane crash. On the contrary, ESP experiences of a theist nature can lead to nasty things, such as killing Hypatia and arresting Galileo.
I believe a more convincing case can be made for closely matching mirror neural brain configurations, which respond in similar ways to similar stimuli.
The response can be to extremely subtle conditions which may not be readily apparent, and that does not make them especially important other than the response function for which it has evolved over a few million years. How does an insect know its gonna rain? Why does nature go quiet just before a thunderstorm. Atmospheric conditions are subconsciously experienced by all organisms. When this experience seems to duplicate itself in others it is not a sign of ESP among people, but a shared experience of atmospheric conditions by all. A "rainman" does not make rain. He might be able to tell that it is going to rain soon. I've seen a weather prediction by an old man who claimed he could read the color of the sky and know it was going to rain in the near future. IMO, he also had a keen sensitivity to atmospheric changes.

Originally Posted by KalEl

It is the same with ESP, I believe it exists and I have prove of it

I have proof that you don't have proof.

But I'm not going to spend any time posting it.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by KalEl

I don´t know what is your point. You just said the same thing I did but twisted around.

I did not say the same thing you said- not even slightly. You said, "they" laughed at people for talking of round Earth and Flight.
Which is nothing like what I said.

Originally Posted by KalEl

You want me to name names, the catholic church forced Galileo to renounce his believes that today we know to be true.

Interesting example... Because Galileo said the Earth was Round, as well. The Church meanwhile, promoted a flat Earth because their holy book said it was flat. Funny... No one was laughing and the ignorant, superstitious and self righteous were wrong- the educated was correct.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Thomas Edison invented the light bulb and failed many times until he could prove it could be done, by whom I read history I did not memorize the names of who did not believe he could do it, history remembers people who accomplish things not the ones that spend all there energy proving that is not possible.

Absolute nonsense. Edison did not invent the light bulb, he patented and marketed his design first. He was one of MANY people that made light bulbs. And again- no one laughed at Edison- you say you cannot name names because you pulled the claim out of your backside. You're just making up your arguments as you go without any regard to validity or accuracy.

Originally Posted by KalEl

But until a certain point we agree that in the past things to have been said to be false and today are considered valid. It is the same with ESP, and I have no interest in be one of the ones who prove it is real.

Yes, and it's been said ESP is real by the ignorant, superstitious and self righteous- but we are well aware today that it's failed every test given. Everything else, such as someone doesn't WANT to take the test is just the same tired lame excuses.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I did not quite get what you say about God creating the Big Bang.

You suggested that with an unknown origin of the Universe, that it's possible that God diddit. You went on to compare this to ESP. Do not act like you did not suggest it.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I do have evidence that extra sensory perception is real

Present your evidence or stop making bold claims that you refuse to support with evidence- it's a science forum, not a belief forum.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I can not blame you for that.

I can blame you for promoting ignorance. I will continue to stand against it.

Wow this is a lot... I don´t mean to be judgmental but you come across as someone who is more worried about arguing and win his argument than actually finding the truth, is time consuming to try to discuss with someone like that. I more like I respect your point of view, we should agree to disagree. Some discussions are pointless. I don´t understand why you would write in latin, a dead language... I had to do latin in school and was not useful once in my life... it sounds to me that you wan´t to prove that your intelligent... I mean this is a English speaking forum why don´t you write "For among [times of] arms, the laws fall mute"... I hope I´m wrong especially because I really don´t really know you, and I don´t want´to past judgment...
"Absolute nonsense. Edison did not invent the light bulb, he patented and marketed his design first. He was one of MANY people that made light bulbs. And again- no one laughed at Edison- you say you cannot name names because you pulled the claim out of your backside. You're just making up your arguments as you go without any regard to validity or accuracy." I heard the first time that Edison invented the light bulb about 20 years ago in a tape about success, and I have been reading in other motivation books, and I just double checked it in wickipedia. You concentrate in small details, and you try to twist it around... I don´t think you going to grow much with your attitude, no wonder why you don´t believe in ESP, you got to have a open mind to be able to experienced... if you choose to believe that I promote ignorance I respect that, it´s a free world... but if you really wan´t to find out (you seam fixated with the idea that is not real) you should try finding an English version of Los Poderes Ocultos de La Mente by Enrique de Vicente, he does quote several books, and tells both sides of the story.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by KalEl

It is the same with ESP, I believe it exists and I have prove of it

I have proof that you don't have proof.

But I'm not going to spend any time posting it.

You made me laugh.

Originally Posted by Write4U

Originally Posted by KalEl

I don´t know what is your point. You just said the same thing I did but twisted around. You want me to name names, the catholic church forced Galileo to renounce his believes that today we know to be true. Thomas Edison invented the light bulb and failed many times until he could prove it could be done, by whom I read history I did not memorize the names of who did not believe he could do it, history remembers people who accomplish things not the ones that spend all there energy proving that is not possible. But until a certain point we agree that in the past things to have been said to be false and today are considered valid. It is the same with ESP, and I have no interest in be one of the ones who prove it is real.

The difference between Thomas Edison and ESP is the fact that at night we can turn on a light bulb. Yet there is not a single unbiased and verified case of an effective ESP function, which has saved a life or prevented a plane crash. On the contrary, ESP experiences of a theist nature can lead to nasty things, such as killing Hypatia and arresting Galileo.
I believe a more convincing case can be made for closely matching mirror neural brain configurations, which respond in similar ways to similar stimuli.
The response can be to extremely subtle conditions which may not be readily apparent, and that does not make them especially important other than the response function for which it has evolved over a few million years. How does an insect know its gonna rain? Why does nature go quiet just before a thunderstorm. Atmospheric conditions are subconsciously experienced by all organisms. When this experience seems to duplicate itself in others it is not a sign of ESP among people, but a shared experience of atmospheric conditions by all. A "rainman" does not make rain. He might be able to tell that it is going to rain soon. I've seen a weather prediction by an old man who claimed he could read the color of the sky and know it was going to rain in the near future. IMO, he also had a keen sensitivity to atmospheric changes.

Quite interesting... there is hope in you, it´s the most intelligent cement I have read so far... I can not defend all the ESP abilities I can only defend telepathy... that what I know about... but I really not going to spend that much time trying to convince you... and I respect your views....

Originally Posted by KalEl

Wow this is a lot... I don´t mean to be judgmental but you come across as someone who is more worried about arguing and win his argument than actually finding the truth, is time consuming to try to discuss with someone like that. I more like I respect your point of view, we should agree to disagree.

That is not me. I am heavily confrontational, combative and determined. I'm like a dog- once I sink my teeth in, I have great difficulty in letting go. That is one difference between us. The other is that I've supported my statements and provided useful information- which you've not done.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Some discussions are pointless.

You engaged in it...
By the way, Latin is very much alive and in current use.

Originally Posted by KalEl

it sounds to me that you wan´t to prove that your intelligent...

Oh.... I already have. Now it's just a matter of maintenance...

Originally Posted by KalEl

I mean this is a English speaking forum why don´t you write "For among [times of] arms, the laws fall mute"...

I prefer it in Latin. To gain knowledge, build, progress and seek more knowledge...well... Per Aspera ad Astra.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I don´t want´to past judgment...

You wouldn't be the first that did- bring it on...

Originally Posted by KalEl

I heard the first time that Edison invented the light bulb about 20 years ago in a tape about success, and I have been reading in other motivation books, and I just double checked it in wickipedia. You concentrate in small details, and you try to twist it around... I don´t think you going to grow much with your attitude

Nonsense- You claimed that people laughed at him- Support Your Claim.

Originally Posted by KalEl

if you choose to believe that I promote ignorance I respect that, it´s a free world... but if you really wan´t to find out (you seam fixated with the idea that is not real) you should try finding an English version of Los Poderes Ocultos de La Mente by Enrique de Vicente, he does quote several books, and tells both sides of the story.

I'm familiar with the books which is why I commented on it previously. It promotes his beliefs, with no real support or evidence, just anecdotes and claims- same as you do.

Originally Posted by Strange

Originally Posted by KalEl

I´m sorry for that, I was not expecting that many reactions.

This is a science forum. Make ridiculous and unbelievable claims and people are going to ask for evidence. That's just the way it is.

If you want people to just believe everything you say then you are in the wrong place.

Well I have been expose to science in two universities... and I understand where you trying to say... for me to be able to prove it I would have to give you recordings, probably will imply flying you over here or me flying over there... and will mean after a lot of exposure that I don´t need nor I wan´t...

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by KalEl

thank God that I did psychology.

Thank God I'm not your patient.

Ha Ha... thank God I don´t practice..

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by KalEl

I did not quite get what you say about God creating the Big Bang. I never eared of such a thing

Then try reading. Deism and/ or the etiological argument.

but I do believe in God, and I do believe in Science.

Some sort of conflict there. At what point do you decide one of those beliefs is wrong?

I do have evidence that extra sensory perception is real

No you don't.

I just don´t have a need to be the hero or try to put my mark in history. If you don´t believe in it is your problem not mine.

Back to your wishing to be able to promote nonsense without being called on it I see.

But I do respect your views

Obviously not.

I believe that you never had a chance to develop your abilities

On the contrary, YOU are the one that hasn't developed your abilities - critical faculties, reasoning and logic for a start.

(many people believe that all humans are capable of manifesting ESP capabilities, they need training, others are natural) or to feel the touch of someone who has the abilities

Specious rubbish.

The only thing that I can answer is

but I do believe in God, and I do believe in Science.

Some sort of conflict there. At what point do you decide one of those beliefs is wrong?.... there is no conflict... Psychology is a science, and it does accept a spiritual component... in health there is social health, physical health, mental health, spiritual health... acknowledging God does not mean that you can not be a scientist, there are a lot of scientist who believe in God or have some spiritual side... I don´t know how to answer all your questions nor I have the time...

Originally Posted by KalEl

there is no conflict... Psychology is a science, and it does accept a spiritual component... in health there is social health, physical health, mental health, spiritual health... acknowledging God does not mean that you can not be a scientist, there are a lot of scientist who believe in God or have some spiritual side...

Ah, I see your error.
Psychology is not (quite) a science - yet.
And the "spiritual component" is nothing to do with god.

At some point you will have to reject or ignore one or the other (god/ science) since there are mutually incompatible.

I don´t know how to answer all your questions nor I have the time...

But you have the time to tell me you don't have time.
Got it.

for me to be able to prove it I would have to give you recordings

Recordings aren't proof.
If you'd paid attention in your science classes you'd know that.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by KalEl

Wow this is a lot... I don´t mean to be judgmental but you come across as someone who is more worried about arguing and win his argument than actually finding the truth, is time consuming to try to discuss with someone like that. I more like I respect your point of view, we should agree to disagree.

That is not me. I am heavily confrontational, combative and determined. I'm like a dog- once I sink my teeth in, I have great difficulty in letting go. That is one difference between us. The other is that I've supported my statements and provided useful information- which you've not done.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Some discussions are pointless.

You engaged in it...
By the way, Latin is very much alive and in current use.

Originally Posted by KalEl

it sounds to me that you wan´t to prove that your intelligent...

Oh.... I already have. Now it's just a matter of maintenance...

Originally Posted by KalEl

I mean this is a English speaking forum why don´t you write "For among [times of] arms, the laws fall mute"...

I prefer it in Latin. To gain knowledge, build, progress and seek more knowledge...well... Per Aspera ad Astra.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I don´t want´to past judgment...

You wouldn't be the first that did- bring it on...

Originally Posted by KalEl

I heard the first time that Edison invented the light bulb about 20 years ago in a tape about success, and I have been reading in other motivation books, and I just double checked it in wickipedia. You concentrate in small details, and you try to twist it around... I don´t think you going to grow much with your attitude

Nonsense- You claimed that people laughed at him- Support Your Claim.

Originally Posted by KalEl

if you choose to believe that I promote ignorance I respect that, it´s a free world... but if you really wan´t to find out (you seam fixated with the idea that is not real) you should try finding an English version of Los Poderes Ocultos de La Mente by Enrique de Vicente, he does quote several books, and tells both sides of the story.

I'm familiar with the books which is why I commented on it previously. It promotes his beliefs, with no real support or evidence, just anecdotes and claims- same as you do.

A lot... let´s start with books, it´s not possible for you to have read all the books, I mentioned only one book, there are anecdotes and also things that where proven... maybe you just google the book I just mentioned and you found a test criticizing the book, there are some cases that were proven not all...
you seriously want me to mention who exactly laugh at him... well really you would have to read for instance You Can Make It Happen: A Nine Step Plan for Success by Stedman Graham (he was oprah winfrey boyfriend I don´t know if they still together), he mentions a lot of people including Thomas Edison that people were trying to discredit but became successful... but that is completely of topic of ESP, it has nothing to do with it...
Latin is not spoken anymore... some people refer to Spanish speaking people as Latinos (especially from the ones from the central and southern part of America, witch is called Latin America), but that is do to the fact that Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French are languages originated from Latin... when Rome conquered most of Europe they left the influence in their languages, that I know since I was about 15 years old, I learned in a private school in Europe, and also I learned again in the U.S., and in Canada.... Latin is only useful for someone who studies ancient tests, maybe to an archeologist...
maintenance... is more about you been insecure and trying to show that your intelligent... communication is best when it is simplified and, I can start writing in Portuguese and Spanish, but that would not prove that I´m more intelligent especially because they may be people who don´t speak those languages in the forum...
"That is not me. I am heavily confrontational, combative and determined. I'm like a dog- once I sink my teeth in, I have great difficulty in letting go. That is one difference between us. The other is that I've supported my statements and provided useful information- which you've not done." I have supported my statements, you just like arguing, but what good is an argument if you don´t learn anything you just try to win... that mentality in creating a business for instance it can drag your company to the ground because you wan´t to win and argument and not solve the problem...

Originally Posted by KalEl

Blah blah blah non-sequiturs ¹ blah blah blah missed points blah blah blah I have supported my statements

No you haven't.
You've just made claims and then said you don't have the time, or don't want to make the effort, to actually support them.

and not solve the problem...

Except that the problem is you making unsupported claims.


1 Which is, by the way, Latin. And in current use. Thus refuting your "argument". QED. ².

2 That was more Latin. Were I particularly interested I could give more examples e.g. ³; viz., i.e., etc., CV, AM, et al...

3 Oops, that was another!

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by KalEl

there is no conflict... Psychology is a science, and it does accept a spiritual component... in health there is social health, physical health, mental health, spiritual health... acknowledging God does not mean that you can not be a scientist, there are a lot of scientist who believe in God or have some spiritual side...

Ah, I see your error.
Psychology is not (quite) a science - yet.
And the "spiritual component" is nothing to do with god.

At some point you will have to reject or ignore one or the other (god/ science) since there are mutually incompatible.

I don´t know how to answer all your questions nor I have the time...

But you have the time to tell me you don't have time.
Got it.

for me to be able to prove it I would have to give you recordings

Recordings aren't proof.
If you'd paid attention in your science classes you'd know that.

Ha ha... since when Psychology is not a science? You just proving that your ignorant... it´s a young science but it is a science or else it would not be validated and not be thought in universities all over the world... one of the definitions of psychology is "the science that studies human behavior"...you never opened a book about Psychology have you, that you learn in Introduction to Psychology... let me guess you wan´t me tell you were I got that information from...
"And the "spiritual component" is nothing to do with god." God is with capital letter, and forget open a book about psychology open a dictionary, if you don´t know that spirituality has to do with God you have a long way to go.
Time to explain you the definition of spirituality, I really now I don´t have time...

If you can prove ESP is real, under controlled conditions, you can win yourself a million dollar prize. Go ahead.

If you aren't prepared to prove it under controlled conditions, shut up about it.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Ha ha... since when Psychology is not a science?

Since it fails to fulfil all of the criteria for science.

You just proving that your ignorant.

Right. Doing a degree course course in psychology made me ignorant. ¹

it´s a young science but it is a science or else it would not be validated and not be thought in universities all over the world.

No, it's a nascent science - it's on its way to becoming a science.

you never opened a book about Psychology have you, that you learn in Introduction to Psychology

Funnily enough ON MY VERY FIRST DAY of my degree course the tutor admitted that psychology isn't (yet) a science (despite falling under the general heading of "Social Sciences"). ¹

God is with capital letter

Wrong again. God, with a capital letter refers ONLY to the Christian god - there are (supposedly) others you know.

if you don´t know that spirituality has to do with God you have a long way to go.

Yeah?
Those who speak of spirituality outside of religion often define themselves as spiritual but not religious
How can "god" be included if there's no religion?
Modern spirituality is centered on the "deepest values and meanings by which people live.
No "god" required.
Secular spirituality emphasizes humanistic ideas on moral character (qualities such as love, compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, responsibility, harmony, and a concern for others.^[52]:22 These are aspects of life and human experience which go beyond a purely materialist view of the world without necessarily accepting belief in a supernatural reality or divine being.
Oops, a specific exclusion of "god".
Etc. Etc.
Maybe I'm further ahead than you.

Time to explain you the definition of spirituality, I really now I don´t have time...

Yet something else you "don't have the time" to explain, and that you're also wrong about.


1 You see what assuming things does for your credibility? Try not to do it in future.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by KalEl

Blah blah blah non-sequiturs ¹ blah blah blah missed points blah blah blah I have supported my statements

No you haven't.
You've just made claims and then said you don't have the time, or don't want to make the effort, to actually support them.

and not solve the problem...

Except that the problem is you making unsupported claims.


1 Which is, by the way, Latin. And in current use. Thus refuting your "argument". QED. ².

2 That was more Latin. Were I particularly interested I could give more examples e.g. ³; viz., i.e., etc., CV, AM, et al...

3 Oops, that was another!

Those are expressions... every language uses expressions or words from other language because of discoveries and inventions that where made... Internet is not a Portuguese but is used, but if you speaking Portuguese and then you say Internet it does not mean that you speaking English... Latin is not spoken anymore only a few words that are use... life will be much easier for you if you communicate in a manner that every one understands, I probably understand Latin more than you, it is the root of Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian (Italian would be probably the closest thing to Latin right now because the Roman empire is from Rome/Roma the capital of Italy)...
Supporting my statements... well what I can see is that somethings that I consider common knowledge need explaining to you... that´s a lot of work, I´m sorry if I can not explain everything...

Originally Posted by KalEl

Those are expressions... every language uses expressions or words from other language because of discoveries and inventions that where made... Internet is not a Portuguese but is used, but if you speaking Portuguese and then you say Internet it does not mean that you speaking English... Latin is not spoken anymore only a few words that are use... life will be much easier for you if you communicate in a manner that every one understands

Hmm, that argument appears to be, prima facie and a priori, incorrect.
Maybe, mutatis mutandis, you'd come to see that, inter alia, you'd made an error.
Mea navis aëricumbens anguillis abundat!

Supporting my statements... well what I can see is that somethings that I consider common knowledge

In other words - you're assuming again.

Originally Posted by KalEl

for me to be able to prove it I would have to give you recordings, probably will imply flying you over here or me flying over there... and will mean after a lot of exposure that I don´t need nor I wan´t...

No objective, measurable evidence then. Just some "recordings". What of? How do they support ESP? How do you prove the recordings are not fake? (I am not saying they are fake, just that science has to consider every possible explanation) How do prove the results are due to ESP and not some other phenomena?

You just sound very credulous: "I have no good evidence but I still believe".

Lets assume someone did have ESP. They could go into a controlled laboratory setting, prove their ability, and instantly be at the center of one of the most important discoveries in world history.

This test could be as simple as consistently predicting coin flips just over 50% of the time.

I think its safe to assume ESP does not exist.

However, science hasn't yet discovered everything about reality, and we have no idea what abilities some alien species may have evolved.

Originally Posted by markashley

However, science hasn't yet discovered everything about reality, and we have no idea what abilities some alien species may have evolved.

I read a good book some years ago which had a race of intelligent aliens that were somewhat dog-like in that lived as packs and had a level of collective consciousness. At first you were led to believe that this was because of some sort of ESP; they knew what each other were thinking all the time. But as the story went on it became clear that their collective thinking only worked when they were in sight of each other and they were just sharing very subtle visual and auditory cues. A nice touch for a hard SF novel.

It might have been Fire on the Deep by Vernor Vinge. But I'm not sure. (Although that is worth reading, anyway.)

Originally Posted by KalEl

Well I have been exposed to science in two universes... and I understand where you trying to say... for me to be able to prove it I would have to give you recordings, probably will imply flying you over here or me flying over there... and will mean after a lot of exposure that I don´t need nor I wan´t...

so clark, you still haven't learned what beating your head against a brick wall feels like?

Professor Richard Wiseman is an example of a scientist who has carried out extensive research into ESP, and determined it is all a load of crap.
Richard Wiseman - Research

Originally Posted by KalEl

it´s not possible for you to have read all the books,

Why is that impossible?
Either way- I have not read all the books. I don't read trashy novels.

Originally Posted by KalEl

also things that where proven...

What was 'proven?' You keep making claims and not supporting them.

Originally Posted by KalEl

you seriously want me to mention who exactly laugh at him...

Of course.

Originally Posted by KalEl

(he was oprah winfrey boyfriend I don´t know if they still together), he mentions a lot of people including Thomas Edison that people were trying to discredit but became successful... but that is completely of topic of ESP, it has nothing to do with it...

Ok, so some guy... and by the way, Oprah Winfrey is a well established wackjob that believes in almost anything that is not scientific. You may as well have referenced Sylvia Browne.

Originally Posted by KalEl

Latin is not spoken anymore...

You claim to have a bachelors degree in pshycology? Latin is spoken, regularly and as fluently as you and I are speaking English, now. Well, as fluently as I am speaking English. Your terrible grammar, poor spelling, bad syntax and diction make usage of the language less than fluent... I had thought it was your second language, until you said you live in the USA.
Again- that bachelors degree you hold is looking shady.

Originally Posted by KalEl

maintenance... is more about you been insecure and trying to show that your intelligent... communication is best when it is simplified and, I can start writing in Portuguese and Spanish, but that would not prove that I´m more intelligent especially because they may be people who don´t speak those languages in the forum...

This all started because my sig line is in Latin. As far as maintenance goes- You lack the credibility to psychoanalyze me.

Originally Posted by KalEl

I have supported my statements, you just like arguing, but what good is an argument if you don´t learn anything you just try to win... that mentality in creating a business for instance it can drag your company to the ground because you wan´t to win and argument and not solve the problem...

Nonsense - as usual. If you provide evidence, clear rebuttals and strong refutations, you can win the argument. I argue from the well supported position and you don't argue at all. You just throw out vague claims and refuse to support them.

Though most claims of ESP are straight up bullcrap as Skeptic said, some are only false in the sense that Santa is false. The often socially necessary "a little bird told me" isn't far from saying "I'm psychic". So to those who feel indignant about every untruth, indignant in the name of scientific proof, I suggest they pause and ask if they're really making asses of themselves by attacking a white lie. I wonder if such people ever packaged an expensive Christmas present for another person's child.


Dowsers in my area classically begin the ritual by going to a willow tree and selecting a supple, forked branch. Healthy willow works best. Think about it. What % of British Columbians understand what's going on? It works for the locals anyway, when someone from the city buys a property. I hope the practice quietly continues.

Originally Posted by Pong

So to those who feel indignant about every untruth, indignant in the name of scientific proof, I suggest they pause and ask if they're really making asses of themselves by attacking a white lie. I wonder if such people ever packaged an expensive Christmas present for another person's child.

When my son asked me if there was a Santa Clause, I answered him truthfully.
I don't care if the lie is white, gray or black- a lie is a lie and I do not believe in breaking my bond of trust with my son by lying to him.

Call me an ass all you like, at least I'm an honest ass.

Originally Posted by Pong

Though most claims of ESP are straight up bullcrap as Skeptic said, some are only false in the sense that Santa is false. The often socially necessary "a little bird told me" isn't far from saying "I'm psychic". So to those who feel indignant about every untruth, indignant in the name of scientific proof, I suggest they pause and ask if they're really making asses of themselves by attacking a white lie.

When someone makes such a claim on a science forum, let alone The Science Forum, the claim must be challenged. If someone makes such a claim at a dinner party, maybe not.

This ain't no dinner party.

Originally Posted by Pong

The often socially necessary "a little bird told me" isn't far from saying "I'm psychic".

Incorrect: a little bird told me - definition in British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - Cambridge Dictionary Online

Dowsers in my area classically begin the ritual by going to a willow tree and selecting a supple, forked branch. Healthy willow works best.

One question - how can willow work best when dowsing doesn't, in fact, work?
What definition of "best" is being used here?

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by Pong

The often socially necessary "a little bird told me" isn't far from saying "I'm psychic".

Incorrect: a little bird told me - definition in British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - Cambridge Dictionary Online

Dowsers in my area classically begin the ritual by going to a willow tree and selecting a supple, forked branch. Healthy willow works best.

One question - how can willow work best when dowsing doesn't, in fact, work?
What definition of "best" is being used here?

Moreover, I would not call a branch, recently yanked from its greater body and stripped of its leaves, in a state of good health.

P.s. Willows like lots of moisture, because they have shallow roots. Where there are willows, water is sure to be near.

A) For sake of discretion, I prefer "I'm psychic" or "I sense" over "a little bird..." The difference is stylistic only. What do you say? Or are you never discrete?

B) Willow works best because it's a water-greedy tree that tolerates waterlogged soil around its roots. If you find a healthy willow tree to cut your dowsing branch from, you've already found water.

Originally Posted by Pong

B) Willow works best because it's a water-greedy tree that tolerates waterlogged soil around its roots. If you find a healthy willow tree to cut your dowsing branch from, you've already found water.

And why hope the practice continues of Dowsing?

Originally Posted by Neverfly

And why hope the practice continues of Dowsing?

The only dowsers I knew of could use the employment, when a city person buys land in the country. The dowser's fee is negligible beside the cost of the road access, power line, house, etc.

Edit: What's the alternative? Pay ten times as much for a guy in a white company van that reads "Advanced Environmental Technology Systems"? Rackets abound.

Soo... selling a false service is a white lie?

Sylvia Browne will rejoice.

Originally Posted by Pong

A) For sake of discretion, I prefer "I'm psychic" or "I sense" over "a little bird..." The difference is stylistic only. What do you say? Or are you never discrete?

Huh?
The link I gave clearly states that "a little bird told me" is used in the sense of "I'm not going to tell you who told me". Nothing whatsoever to do with "pyschic" or "sensing".
Ergo it's not a "stylistic" difference at all.
One is a declaration of keeping someone's identity secret, the other is a crackpot falsehood.
Yes, I can be, at times, discrete. But if anyone says to me "I'm psychic" my first reaction is "No, but you are full of bullshit".

Edit: What's the alternative? Pay ten times as much for a guy in a white company van that reads "Advanced Environmental Technology Systems"? Rackets abound.

Surely the alternative is to pay no one and help prevent the growth/ sustainment of crackpottery.
I fail to see any benefit in paying anything for something that doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

selling a false service is a white lie?

Wrong paragraph. I said cooking awkward knowledge (e.g. Q:"How'd you know my boyfriend's circumcised?" A:"I'm psychic") or marking a gift "from Santa" can be a white lie.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by Pong

A) For sake of discretion, I prefer "I'm psychic" or "I sense" over "a little bird..." The difference is stylistic only. What do you say? Or are you never discrete?

Huh?
The link I gave clearly states that "a little bird told me" is used in the sense of "I'm not going to tell you who told me". Nothing whatsoever to do with "pyschic" or "sensing".
Ergo it's not a "stylistic" difference at all.
One is a declaration of keeping someone's identity secret, the other is a crackpot falsehood.

No rule one must invoke little birds to prevaricate. You challenge how I know something, I could say I'm Athena goddess of wisdom that's how.
Birds telling people things seems more crackpot than people inexplicably sensing them.

Originally Posted by Pong

Birds telling people things seems more crackpot than people inexplicably sensing them.

Er, you do realise that it is meant to be not taken as a serious claim about birds, don't you?
It's a way of saying "None of your damn' business how I know".
The claim is supposed to be unbelievable at face value, despite its biblical connection - (rumours "on the wing").

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by Pong

Birds telling people things seems more crackpot than people inexplicably sensing them.

Er, you do realise that it is meant to be not taken as a serious claim about birds, don't you?
It's a way of saying "None of your damn' business how I know".
The claim is supposed to be unbelievable at face value, despite its biblical connection - (rumours "on the wing").

Yes, it is a metaphor, similar to saying, "heard it on the grapevine", and another physical metaphor, 'this news story may have legs"

When I was establishing a new property, and getting ready to build a house, I hired a well digging company to put down a water bore for me. No dowsers, or any other water seeking operation. Just a well. We ended up with wonderful water!

The fact is that 90% of all wells dug strike water, and the last 10% are in deserts. You do not need a dowser or other charlaton. The water is there, to be dug for.

Dowsing has been tested scientifically, several times, using double blind methods, and failed every time.

Originally Posted by skeptic

The fact is that 90% of all wells dug strike water, and the last 10% are in deserts.

Dowsing has been tested scientifically, several times, using double blind methods, and failed every time.

Seems that the odds would allow for more success, then...

Originally Posted by Pong

Originally Posted by Neverfly

selling a false service is a white lie?

Wrong paragraph. I said cooking awkward knowledge (e.g. Q:"How'd you know my boyfriend's circumcised?" A:"I'm psychic")

Being aware of someones partners genitals is a white lie?
Maybe you could have picked a better example- or explained that one better...

[QUOTE=Pong;397446]

Originally Posted by Neverfly

No rule one must invoke little birds to prevaricate. You challenge how I know something, I could say I'm Athena goddess of wisdom that's how.
Birds telling people things seems more crackpot than people inexplicably sensing them.

IMO, both are kinda crackpot. How about "I just don't know but I sense this"? The confirmation or denial will establish whether your "intuitions" are correct in any specific detail. Most likely the knowledge is already there in your neural mirror system and you are "naturally" responding to empathic experiences.

This is why the correct answer should be "I feel these things because I am empathic" (the ability to mirror and experience the emotions of another). And that makes scientific sense. It is testable.

what?

(don't reply, I am just thinking "What?!")

i had 4 very weird experiences in my life so far(it was more, but those 4 affected me or my surroundings directly), so i'm always torn about this subject. i don't believe in this stuff, but these things will stick with me.

i think sometimes weird things can happen, but it's not something controllable or being used on time. it just could have been the weirdest coincident(s) that doesn't mean nothing, but for sure its nothing you could make a living of.

besides fortune tellers on a fairy.

I once used telepathy to realize that, after I vigorously insulted someone, they were angered.

Do I sense... sarcasm?
OMG! I'm telepathic!

Well, that would certainly make you more empathic than Sheldon Cooper.