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Thread: Yes, there are ouija evidence...is there anybody studing it?

  1. #1 Yes, there are ouija evidence...is there anybody studing it? 
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    I have been reading a thread about PSI on Feb-Mar.2012 ...

    Which theory may explain paranormal phenomena?

    I saw that every body believe in PSI phenomens...but every body ask for evidences...

    I have been present in two OUIJA sesions....and I can assure that these sessions were not manipulated because I was heading them.

    There are any body with experiences on OUIJA?

    Is anyone exploring the possible causes?...

    can the mind to move rapidly through a glass letters so quickly that you could only point in order ... and then read after separating the words?


    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I have been present in two OUIJA sesions....and I can assure that these sessions were not manipulated because I was heading them.
    Just because you headed them is not proof that the sessions weren't manipulated. By definition, you can't know what your subconscious is doing. You'd have to blind the experiment (e.g., by having a third party scramble the letters and then hiding them from your view).

    There is a mystery, but not the one you think. The real mystery is why you (and others like you) are so credulous. Sure, it would be nice if magic existed, but don't you think you should think more critically? The real world is actually pretty damned amazing, IMHO. As an example, look up "ideomotor effect" online and you can see ample evidence of how manipulation occurs even without conscious intent. It's fascinating and fully explains the "Ouija phenomenon."
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  5. #4  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I have been present in two OUIJA sesions....and I can assure that these sessions were not manipulated because I was heading them.
    Just because you headed them is not proof that the sessions weren't manipulated. By definition, you can't know what your subconscious is doing. You'd have to blind the experiment (e.g., by having a third party scramble the letters and then hiding them from your view).

    There is a mystery, but not the one you think. The real mystery is why you (and others like you) are so credulous. Sure, it would be nice if magic existed, but don't you think you should think more critically? The real world is actually pretty damned amazing, IMHO. As an example, look up "ideomotor effect" online and you can see ample evidence of how manipulation occurs even without conscious intent. It's fascinating and fully explains the "Ouija phenomenon."
    You didnīt understud.

    No one is more skeptical than me ... althought always leave a small crack in doubt.

    But I assure you that these cases are real ... and I lived.

    OK ... I do not believe in spirits with whom I spoke nearly two hours both times. But something happened.

    These evidences are only for me and the people who were with me.

    And I think it is the mind, the unconscious that do it ... but this is worthy enough to be considered and studied.

    You yourself says it will be something of the mind, the unconscious .... and you say so quiet! ... like something normal!
    Last edited by dapifo; June 24th, 2012 at 01:14 PM.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I have been present in two OUIJA sesions....and I can assure that these sessions were not manipulated because I was heading them.
    Just because you headed them is not proof that the sessions weren't manipulated. By definition, you can't know what your subconscious is doing. You'd have to blind the experiment (e.g., by having a third party scramble the letters and then hiding them from your view).

    There is a mystery, but not the one you think. The real mystery is why you (and others like you) are so credulous. Sure, it would be nice if magic existed, but don't you think you should think more critically? The real world is actually pretty damned amazing, IMHO. As an example, look up "ideomotor effect" online and you can see ample evidence of how manipulation occurs even without conscious intent. It's fascinating and fully explains the "Ouija phenomenon."
    You didnīt understud.

    No one is more skeptical than me ...
    None of your previous posts in any thread indicate that.
     

  7. #6  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I have been present in two OUIJA sesions....and I can assure that these sessions were not manipulated because I was heading them.
    Just because you headed them is not proof that the sessions weren't manipulated. By definition, you can't know what your subconscious is doing. You'd have to blind the experiment (e.g., by having a third party scramble the letters and then hiding them from your view).

    There is a mystery, but not the one you think. The real mystery is why you (and others like you) are so credulous. Sure, it would be nice if magic existed, but don't you think you should think more critically? The real world is actually pretty damned amazing, IMHO. As an example, look up "ideomotor effect" online and you can see ample evidence of how manipulation occurs even without conscious intent. It's fascinating and fully explains the "Ouija phenomenon."
    You didnīt understud.

    No one is more skeptical than me ...
    None of your previous posts in any thread indicate that.
    I donīt think so...one think is to be skeptical...and other to leave a small crack in doubt... to give ideas scientifically possible, although not proven:

    - That may be other universes with other scales of our
    - That may be other unknown energy sources
    - That man could not have freedom of decision and action

    I do not think are impossible issues ... are issues that simply provide an opportunity to see things more broadly.
    Close at band, is typical of people without imagination and creativity.
    One thing is to make categorical statements on issues that are not tested, and another to deny everything that is not scientifically proven and accepted.
    These two extremes are not what I like ... I like to talk and look forward on these issues openly.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I like to talk and look forward on these issues openly.
    That's what you say, but not how you actually behave. You're quite open to ideas that appeal to the wooniverse, but you ignore the ones that are explainable without invoking magic. That's why I asked why you were so credulous. You are not remotely skeptical, except about ideas that clash with your biases. Did you even bother to read about the ideomotor effect? Or does your open-mindedness not extend that far?
     

  9. #8  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I like to talk and look forward on these issues openly.
    That's what you say, but not how you actually behave. You're quite open to ideas that appeal to the wooniverse, but you ignore the ones that are explainable without invoking magic. That's why I asked why you were so credulous. You are not remotely skeptical, except about ideas that clash with your biases. Did you even bother to read about the ideomotor effect? Or does your open-mindedness not extend that far?
    When I talked about MAGIC?...

    Thank you very much for inform to me about the "ideomotor effect". It is the first time I read about it !!!

    Yes this could be the cause of OUIJA (!!!)....Several minds together..could move a glass very fast...stopping in sequential letters .... giving some meaningful words and phrases ....and having a long dialogue.

    But you talk about it like it was something very normal and ussual (!!??) ...For me it is also so strange !!!... and somthing that could be interesting to study deeper.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  10. #9  
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    Funny how people change their views on these things. When my mother was a kid/teenager, say 75 years ago, nobody thought anything about playing with a ouija board. No magic, no spirits, just fun asking the board silly questions.

    Now it all has to be deep and meaningful and portentous.

    It's not. It's a kids' game.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    When I talked about MAGIC?...
    You didn't use the word, but you have been talking consistently about magic nonetheless. In your original post, you asserted strongly that the Ouija board behaved as it did without manipulation. You thus assumed the existence of the paranormal. That credulous acceptance of magical phenomena is inconsistent with your claim that no one is more skeptical than you. Just look at how you worded this thread's title.

    If -- and this is a big if -- you wish to live up to your claim, you need to stop being so quick to accept magical explanations just because you wish them to be true. Yes, scientists don't know everything, but they've investigated a great many things. You'd profit from studying what is known. You'd especially profit from understanding better what skepticism means. To paraphrase the great Inigo Montoya, you keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means.
    Last edited by tk421; June 24th, 2012 at 08:17 PM.
     

  12. #11  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Funny how people change their views on these things. When my mother was a kid/teenager, say 75 years ago, nobody thought anything about playing with a ouija board. No magic, no spirits, just fun asking the board silly questions.

    Now it all has to be deep and meaningful and portentous.

    It's not. It's a kids' game.
    Did you play it sometime?
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  13. #12  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    When I talked about MAGIC?...
    You didn't use the word, but you have been talking consistently about magic nonetheless. In your original post, you asserted strongly that the Ouija board behaved as it did without manipulation. You thus assumed the existence of the paranormal. That credulous acceptance of magical phenomena is inconsistent with your claim that no one is more skeptical than you. Just look at how you worded this thread's title.

    If -- and this is a big if -- you wish to live up to your claim, you need to stop being so quick to accept magical explanations just because you wish them to be true. Yes, scientists don't know everything, but they've investigated a great many things. You'd profit from studying what is known. You'd especially profit from understanding better what skepticism means. To paraphrase the great Inigo Montoya, you keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means.
    Dear friend.

    I play OUIJA clearly and without manipulation... several times. I have it clear...possibly tou donīt belive me ...but it is true.

    I advise you to try it once .... and you'll see.

    Ans as I live it...I am only questioning in this thread about possible aswers....or state of the art of studies and theories about the causes of it.

    And I obtain one I think could be good: the "ideomotor effect". (?)

    Very clear (no MAGIC) only askig for scientific answer to an real succes or event !!!!

    I think that who has problems with the science is yourself....
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    And I think it is the mind, the unconscious that do it ...
    With this one you are probably not far from the truth. In either case, there is nothing supernatural about it, it's really more of a psychological trick, albeit an involuntary one.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    No one is more skeptical than me
    My cat is more sceptical than you.
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Dear friend.

    I play OUIJA clearly and without manipulation... several times. I have it clear...possibly tou donīt belive me ...but it is true.
    And in that statement we have a perfect example of your credulous attitude. You can't possibly know that it is true. You apparently did not read about, or did not understand, the ideomotor effect. No supernatural causes, no inexplicable deviations from the ordinary laws of physics need to be invoked. Nothing other than ordinary fooling of oneself. But you'd rather live in a world of dark mystery. Follow the light, man!

    I advise you to try it once .... and you'll see.
    Humanity already did try it. For millennia. It was not pretty, so no thank you.

    Ans as I live it...I am only questioning in this thread about possible aswers....or state of the art of studies and theories about the causes of it.
    No, you're just shopping for an explanation that you like. The correct answer has already been known for over a century. You just don't like it, so you allude vaguely about other "possible answers".

    Very clear (no MAGIC) only askig for scientific answer to an real succes or event !!!!
    So you say, but when the scientific answer is presented to you, you continue to prattle on nonsensically.

    I think that who has problems with the science is yourself....
    Our posts speak to that issue. I'll let others judge the accuracy of your assertion.
     

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    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    And I think it is the mind, the unconscious that do it ...
    With this one you are probably not far from the truth. In either case, there is nothing supernatural about it, it's really more of a psychological trick, albeit an involuntary one.
    What is for you supernatural or natural? ...I supose that the only difference is what is known and accepted by the current scientific comunity in nowadays.

    For me already my own existence is supernatural: A being formed of vacuum and energy (only 10 exp -7 is matter), able to be communicating (online) with someone who is thousands of miles away ... at the speed of light ... and discussing about the laws that govern the universe. (incredible...but true !!!).

    What will think scientifics of the V Century about this?....and other things like: round earth revolving around the sun, movement of continental plates, neutrons, dinosaurs, Big Bang, electricity, moon travels, TV, airplanes, cell phone, ....(??)... sure that they would say that are supernatural things.

    What is really surprising is that in the XXI century scientists like you can be as negative as they were at that time.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  18. #17  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    What is really surprising is that in the XXI century scientists you can be as negative as they were at that time.
    I really don't think that science would have progressed as well as it has done if it just accepted every "possibility" without employing the sort of critical thinking that you (and my cat) lack.

    It is the fact that science is able to analyse and reject ideas that have no basis in evidence or reality that allows us to develop the technology that you are so impressed by. The fact that people in the past (and, in fact, most people today) don't understand how that technology works is irrelevant. That technology was developed using rational fact-based processes. Future technology will be developed the same way (not by people speculating about magic forces).
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

  19. #18  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    What is really surprising is that in the XXI century scientists you can be as negative as they were at that time.
    I really don't think that science would have progressed as well as it has done if it just accepted every "possibility" without employing the sort of critical thinking that you (and my cat) lack.

    It is the fact that science is able to analyse and reject ideas that have no basis in evidence or reality that allows us to develop the technology that you are so impressed by. The fact that people in the past (and, in fact, most people today) don't understand how that technology works is irrelevant. That technology was developed using rational fact-based processes. Future technology will be developed the same way (not by people speculating about magic forces).
    Ok...I agree that we donīt have to accepted every "possibility" without employing the sort of critical thinking that you and me (possible not your cat..i am not sure at all) have.

    But yes to be a little more open and give the possibilty if you donīt have any evidence against them... give them the same opportunity !!!
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Ok...I agree that we donīt have to accepted every "possibility" without employing the sort of critical thinking that you and me (possible not your cat..i am not sure at all) have.

    But yes to be a little more open and give the possibilty if you donīt have any evidence against them... give them the same opportunity !!!
    Science is VERY open to possibilities (how do you think these theories developed??). As Strange said, we avoid wasting time chasing rainbows by insisting on evidentiary support. When someone makes assertions (such as "we are supernatural"), science replies, Really? What's your evidence? If you have some, great. If all you have is a belief, then you will be rightly ignored. There are too many beliefs -- most of them wrong -- and too little time. You make a claim, you have to back it up.

    Seems open and fair to me.
     

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    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Ok...I agree that we donīt have to accepted every "possibility" without employing the sort of critical thinking that you and me (possible not your cat..i am not sure at all) have.

    But yes to be a little more open and give the possibilty if you donīt have any evidence against them... give them the same opportunity !!!
    Science is VERY open to possibilities (how do you think these theories developed??). As Strange said, we avoid wasting time chasing rainbows by insisting on evidentiary support. When someone makes assertions (such as "we are supernatural"), science replies, Really? What's your evidence? If you have some, great. If all you have is a belief, then you will be rightly ignored. There are too many beliefs -- most of them wrong -- and too little time. You make a claim, you have to back it up.

    Seems open and fair to me.
    You are free to do whatever it deems most appropriate, but not disqualify those who think differently from you.

    They may have as much or more right than you.

    Remember: "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking".
    George S. Patton
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    You are free to do whatever it deems most appropriate, but not disqualify those who think differently from you.

    They may have as much or more right than you.
    You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. Science is open to considering all claims. But the claimants have to provide actual evidence in support of their assertions. The disqualification has nothing to do with those who think differently. But it has everything to do with those who don't think. You seem happiest in the second category; daydreaming about magic rainbows is more pleasant than facing the possibility that one's cherished beliefs might prove to be wrong.

    You have proven yourself not to be particularly skeptical, contrary to your loud assertions. Do you not understand this?
     

  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    You are free to do whatever it deems most appropriate, but not disqualify those who think differently from you.
    It is not about "thinking differently" or not. It is about EVIDENCE. Is that really hard to understand?

    The scientists who have come up with great new ideas "thought differently" but supported their ideas with evidence. Do you begin to see the point?
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

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    Its funny no one ever remembers exactly what they asked the ouija
     

  25. #24  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blarg View Post
    Its funny no one ever remembers exactly what they asked the ouija
    I do...It is very long to explain.

    But all it explain to us over the future...didnīt happened...so there was any vident there (also the espirit wasnīt)

    But the important is the fact !!!... two hours talking with one glass moving faster that you can imagine...and telling a lot of things with sense...also asking for a letter that was missing (??).

    But... the "ideomotor effect"...could explain it ... and fit very well with my opinion. Althought it is also Magic and extrange... that four-five minds can work together to move quickly one glass telling things (???)... deserves to be studied (!!!)
    Last edited by dapifo; June 25th, 2012 at 07:01 PM.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  26. #25  
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    Of course
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    ... two hours talking with one glass moving faster that you can imagine...
    Somehow this is just sad...
     

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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    dapifo,
    I think part of the reason you are finding it difficult to get people to listen to your message is that you must write here in a foreign language. I would like to write here what I think you are trying to say. Let me know if this is close:

    I have played with a ouija board with some friends and was surprised by the results. I don't believe that the action of a ouija board is due to magic, or ghosts, or anything supernatural. However, the observed fact that it will sometimes produce understandable words and sentences, seem able to answer questions and to hold a conversation is surely worthy of study.

    Probably the explanation lies in the subconscious of the particiipants who may act, unknowlingly, in concert to generate the messages. Whatever the cause it seems to me very interesting and something that is worth studying. I am surprised that your attitude is to state so strongly and repeatedly that it is not supernatural, even though I have agreed with this from the start. I am also surprised you do not consider it interesting and worth some more study. Surely if we can find it worthwhile to study the mating habits of a moth found only in a small section of remote jungle, then this phenomenon that reveals something about the human mind is worth some attention.

    Let me know if this is close to what you meant.
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    Anyone seen:



    Ouijia board claims fall apart even at the level of comedic testing.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
     

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    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    dapifo,
    I think part of the reason you are finding it difficult to get people to listen to your message is that you must write here in a foreign language. I would like to write here what I think you are trying to say. Let me know if this is close:

    I have played with a ouija board with some friends and was surprised by the results. I don't believe that the action of a ouija board is due to magic, or ghosts, or anything supernatural. However, the observed fact that it will sometimes produce understandable words and sentences, seem able to answer questions and to hold a conversation is surely worthy of study.

    Probably the explanation lies in the subconscious of the particiipants who may act, unknowlingly, in concert to generate the messages. Whatever the cause it seems to me very interesting and something that is worth studying. I am surprised that your attitude is to state so strongly and repeatedly that it is not supernatural, even though I have agreed with this from the start. I am also surprised you do not consider it interesting and worth some more study. Surely if we can find it worthwhile to study the mating habits of a moth found only in a small section of remote jungle, then this phenomenon that reveals something about the human mind is worth some attention.

    Let me know if this is close to what you meant.
    Exactly !!!!!... Thanks very much to be able to resume what I try to explain with my few academic and understandable English (sorry for that).

    The "ideomotor effect"...may be a feasible explanation.

    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass (they were over without touching) ... and what we did was try to follow the fast moving glassl stopping at certain points an instant (enough for me to say the letter and someone else pointed out on paper). Then, when the glass stopped at all, we tried to separate words and phrases in a soup of consecutive letters.

    It is not an "ideomotor effect"..., but rather an "ideo-energetic effect". In which the energy of the people (human Aura) could move the glass (???).
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

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    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo
    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass (they were over without touching) ... and what we did was try to follow the fast moving glassl stopping at certain points an instant (enough for me to say the letter and someone else pointed out on paper). Then, when the glass stopped at all, we tried to separate words and phrases in a soup of consecutive letters.
    Then I suspect you have been had by a cunning friend, i.e. someone has played a trick on you. Glasses can't move on their own.

    It is not an "ideomotor effect"..., but rather an "ideo-energetic effect". In which the energy of the people (human Aura) could move the glass (???).
    Nope. There is no such thing as telekinesis.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

  32. #31  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyoko View Post
    Anyone seen:



    Ouijia board claims fall apart even at the level of comedic testing.
    Tanks...very funny.

    Try to do it once and then tell me what do you think...Ok?
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass (they were over without touching) ... and what we did was try to follow the fast moving glassl stopping at certain points an instant (enough for me to say the letter and someone else pointed out on paper). Then, when the glass stopped at all, we tried to separate words and phrases in a soup of consecutive letters.

    It is not an "ideomotor effect"..., but rather an "ideo-energetic effect". In which the energy of the people (human Aura) could move the glass (???).
    This is beyond sad. "Most skeptical person?" Not even close. And this is the first time that you have claimed that no fingers touched the glass. We could have saved much time had you said this at the beginning.

    Here's your fundamental problem. You so wish magic to be true that your first inclination is to invoke a magical cause whenever you encounter something that seems mysterious. Instead, you should be much more open-minded and consider the possibility (actually, probability) that the explanation lies in the real world.

    There are no human auras (and please don't prattle on about Kirlian photography and other non-evidence of auras), so why invoke them as possible explanations? Why don't you instead think "Hmmm...the glass is moving 'by itself'...someone could be blowing on it, or subtly tilting the board, or..."? Stage magicians entertain us by fooling us. Or do you believe that they really saw people in half?

    THINK, man, THINK. Try living up to your bold claim that "no one is more skeptical" than you.
    John Galt and Strange like this.
     

  34. #33  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass (they were over without touching) ... and what we did was try to follow the fast moving glassl stopping at certain points an instant (enough for me to say the letter and someone else pointed out on paper). Then, when the glass stopped at all, we tried to separate words and phrases in a soup of consecutive letters.

    It is not an "ideomotor effect"..., but rather an "ideo-energetic effect". In which the energy of the people (human Aura) could move the glass (???).
    This is beyond sad. "Most skeptical person?" Not even close. And this is the first time that you have claimed that no fingers touched the glass. We could have saved much time had you said this at the beginning.

    Here's your fundamental problem. You so wish magic to be true that your first inclination is to invoke a magical cause whenever you encounter something that seems mysterious. Instead, you should be much more open-minded and consider the possibility (actually, probability) that the explanation lies in the real world.

    There are no human auras (and please don't prattle on about Kirlian photography and other non-evidence of auras), so why invoke them as possible explanations? Why don't you instead think "Hmmm...the glass is moving 'by itself'...someone could be blowing on it, or subtly tilting the board, or..."? Stage magicians entertain us by fooling us. Or do you believe that they really saw people in half?

    THINK, man, THINK. Try living up to your bold claim that "no one is more skeptical" than you.
    Please, read the post of John Galt (Yes, there are ouija evidence...is there anybody studing it?)
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    The "ideomotor effect"...may be a feasible explanation.
    God.

    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass (they were over without touching)
    Oh! And you were doing so well. We are back to magic.

    It is not an "ideomotor effect"..., but rather an "ideo-energetic effect". In which the energy of the people (human Aura) could move the glass (???).
    : No, it was little fairies pushing the glass around to make you happy. Really.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

  36. #35  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    I am disappointed. Perhaps I did not understand you. I readily accept that there may be an interesting effect at work with ouija boards, but any such effect can be explained with 'normal' science.

    I find your suggestion of a glass moving by itself to be ridiculous. You do not appear to realise how ridiculous it is. May I ask why you waited to so late in the thread to mention this claim? You do realise that if it really did move by itself that would be a staggering event? And yet you don't bother mentioning it till the last moment!!
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    What makes you think I haven't read it? It would seem that you either didn't read it yourself, or you misunderstood his post entirely. Allow me to paraphrase (and please correct me, John, if I misrepresent what you meant):

    "Maybe your problem is just one of language. Perhaps you really are a critical thinker, but simply express yourself poorly in English. Please confirm/deny."

    We now plainly see that your problem is not simply one of language. You really are a credulous individual. Any seeming mystery, anything without an immediate explanation, anything that confuses you automatically suggests evidence of a reality beyond the pedestrian pronouncements of science. Magicians really do cut their assistants in half. David Copperfield really did make the Empire State Building, an elephant, and a jumbo jet disappear. Uri Geller really can melt spoons with his mind. It must be so. I saw all these things with my own eyes. It's impossible for me to have been fooled, for I was in control of the television at all times.

    Perhaps some day you will awaken from your slumber. But that day does not seem to be today.
     

  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass
    What you mean is, your finger was not on the glass. I guess that one or more of your friends, knowing how gullible you are, played a little trick on you. You fell for it.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

  39. #38  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    tk421 I confirm your interpretation of my post.
     

  40. #39  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass
    What you mean is, your finger was not on the glass. I guess that one or more of your friends, knowing how gullible you are, played a little trick on you. You fell for it.
    Did you try sometimes to do OUIJA?

    I am just telling you my experinece:

    - It was at my home.
    - With my friends
    - Was the first time for every body
    - At the begining was only joking

    We just put the fingers half centimeter up the glass....without touching the glass... and in few instats it began to move... (!!!?) ... and we began to talk with it...during two hours.

    As simple like that...It was also a surprise for me.

    Some days latter we do again....and hapened the same , but with another "being" (??)....

    OK...I lived it...try to do you and then weīll be able to speak (?).
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass
    What you mean is, your finger was not on the glass. I guess that one or more of your friends, knowing how gullible you are, played a little trick on you. You fell for it.
    Did you try sometimes to do OUIJA?

    I am just telling you my experinece:

    - It was at my home.
    - With my friends
    - Was the first time for every body
    - At the begining was only joking

    We just put the fingers half centimeter up the glass....without touching the glass... and in few instats it began to move... (!!!?) ... and we began to talk with it...during two hours.

    As simple like that...It was also a surprise for me.

    Some days latter we do again....and hapened the same , but with another "being" (??)....

    OK...I lived it...try to do you and then weīll be able to speak (?).
    You've not done even the most basic investigations to rule out the obvious explanations. The experiment wasn't blinded. You did not have cameras to record from various angles to verify that no one ever touched the glass (and no, we won't accept your word; you are an unreliable source). You did not have instruments to detect whether the board was being tilted by some means. Etc.

    Rather than jumping to the conclusion that something supernatural was going on, you need to rule out the natural first. Every time this has been done carefully, the supernatural explanation has disappeared.

    Your declaration that we aren't allowed to discuss this with you unless we've "lived it" is just silly. Suppose some random person came up to you and said, "I can control other people's actions by the force of my will." Wouldn't you require some proof before accepting his claim? And if you were to suggest that there were other possibilities, such as confirmation bias and random chance, wouldn't you be put off if he were to respond to your questions and suggestions by dismissing them with what you said above ("...and then we'll be able to speak")?

    Would you now not at least concede that you are not a skeptical person? We haven't seen you exercise sound reasoning in this exchange, to say nothing of your other postings.
     

  42. #41  
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    I wonder, how much beer was consumed that night?
     

  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    We just put the fingers half centimeter up the glass....without touching the glass... and in few instats it began to move... (!!!?) ... and we began to talk with it...during two hours.
    What you mean is, your finger was not on the glass. I guess that one or more of your friends, knowing how gullible you are, played a little trick on you. You fell for it.

    Oooh ... deja vu ... spooky.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

  44. #43  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But only one problem: That during the session OUIJA our fingers did not touch the glass
    What you mean is, your finger was not on the glass. I guess that one or more of your friends, knowing how gullible you are, played a little trick on you. You fell for it.
    Did you try sometimes to do OUIJA?

    I am just telling you my experinece:

    - It was at my home.
    - With my friends
    - Was the first time for every body
    - At the begining was only joking

    We just put the fingers half centimeter up the glass....without touching the glass... and in few instats it began to move... (!!!?) ... and we began to talk with it...during two hours.

    As simple like that...It was also a surprise for me.

    Some days latter we do again....and hapened the same , but with another "being" (??)....

    OK...I lived it...try to do you and then weīll be able to speak (?).
    You've not done even the most basic investigations to rule out the obvious explanations. The experiment wasn't blinded. You did not have cameras to record from various angles to verify that no one ever touched the glass (and no, we won't accept your word; you are an unreliable source). You did not have instruments to detect whether the board was being tilted by some means. Etc.

    Rather than jumping to the conclusion that something supernatural was going on, you need to rule out the natural first. Every time this has been done carefully, the supernatural explanation has disappeared.

    Your declaration that we aren't allowed to discuss this with you unless we've "lived it" is just silly. Suppose some random person came up to you and said, "I can control other people's actions by the force of my will." Wouldn't you require some proof before accepting his claim? And if you were to suggest that there were other possibilities, such as confirmation bias and random chance, wouldn't you be put off if he were to respond to your questions and suggestions by dismissing them with what you said above ("...and then we'll be able to speak")?

    Would you now not at least concede that you are not a skeptical person? We haven't seen you exercise sound reasoning in this exchange, to say nothing of your other postings.
    Forgive me, but it is not my intention at all to convince you or anyone else that what I say is true! ... nor do I lose as little time on it!

    The thread is a scientific question for those who have participated in a OUIJA (or who know and believe in it) and have the same curiosity that I know or investigate its causes.

    If no one is so pocemos close the thread. Thank you every body !!!.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking". George S. Patton
    "Science does not know its debt to imagination". Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Why settle with the known models and patterns (but not underlying laws) of Our Universe , if we might understand them better if we could puzzle out them from outside its limits?"
    (The common sense)
     

  45. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    The thread is a scientific question for those who have participated in a OUIJA (or who know and believe in it) and have the same curiosity that I know or investigate its causes.

    If no one is so pocemos close the thread. Thank you every body !!!.
    We attempted to talk about it scientifically. You were the one who consistently rejected science in favor of woo. As far as I can tell, you were hoping for confirmation of your belief in magic, and we spoiled your fun. Sorry about that. Reality isn't for everyone, it seems.

    I agree that this thread should be closed. No point in wasting even more time.
     

  46. #45  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Thread closure seems appropriate. If anyone feels there is more to say please contact myself or another moderator and make your case, or use the Report Post function on this post and state why you think it should be opened.
     

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