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Thread: measuring longitude without clock

  1. #1 measuring longitude without clock 
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    all right do you remember phileas fog counted 80 days where only 79 passed by since he made a east revolution to erath?


    sun and moon rotate opposite,sun is faster than moon in sky


    so:


    from greenwich a person counts sunsets and moonsets


    he counts 28 sunsets and 29 moonsets


    a sailor makes a revolution east to earth along which he counted 27 sunsets and 30 moonsets


    so you make a device in whcih one nedel aims the sun


    and a disc aims the moon in which theres a needle which you delay 1/28 every day


    from greenwhich both neeldes will always coincide


    after a revolution to earth along almost a month needles will delay TWO REVOLUTIONS along 360º


    so if you can get a precision of 10th of the disc yyou can measure longitude with a precision of 5 degrees by measuring both needles difference


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    Another post that makes no sense at all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    sun and moon rotate opposite
    That is incorrect. I don't really understand the rest.
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    well travel around the wrold in 80 days anyone?

    phileas fog counted 80 days where only 79 passed by since he made a east revolution to earth, from his point of view travelling one revolution to earth counted as one day

    if you take a picture of the moon every day at same hour and animate it as a movie the moon will be moving contrary to the sun

    so you go east travelling for one revolution so youll count one more sunset that if you didnt move, as phileas fog

    but your following the moon orbit so you count one less moon

    so travelling one revolution around earth makes you percieve a difference of sunset and moonset of 3 per evry 28 days while if you didnt move the diference would be of just one per 28, from here easy obtaining longitude just with a calnedar

    man wheres your education not knowing that willy fog counted 80 where just 79 had passed by

    <span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background-color: rgb(246, 246, 246); ">
    Last edited by luxtpm; March 11th, 2012 at 02:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    if you take a picture of the moon every day at same hour
    And there is the problem. You need to measure the position of the moon (or, more practically, stars) at the same time every day. For that you are going to need an accurate clock. Once you have an accurate clock, you can measure the positions of some stars at any time and calculate your position.
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    make that same hour sunset that along a month doesnt change that much

    you count sunsets and moonsets along a month

    from a still point there will be a difernce of on day

    phileas fog would have counted 3 less moonsets than sunsets in his trip if it had lasted a month
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well travel around the wrold in 80 days anyone?

    [phileas fog counted 80 days where only 79 passed by since he made a east revolution to earth, from his point of view travelling one revolution to earth counted as one day
    You do realize that was fiction, right?
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    fiction that could have been fact

    wouldnat have made sense if he had gone west but he went east
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    fiction that could have been fact

    wouldnat have made sense if he had gone west but he went east
    BUT IT WAS FICTION, NOT FACT!

    Apparently, you can't tell the difference...
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    yes but if someone emulated the trip he would count 80 sunsets while in london 79 past by
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    baa....Fog was probably just on a good bender--easy to loose days that way.
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    To luxtpm

    I have tried to figure this out, without luck. The 80 vs 79 factor should not matter.

    It is really easy to think of lots of ways to measure, however roughly, latitude without a clock, but longitude? Your explanation of your method is really hard to follow. Is English a second language?

    Anyway, it is best to think of a person travelling around the world on the equator. The world rotates and the sun and moon at any stage are (to our senses) essentially unmoving and very high in the sky. The angle between the two will be the same anywhere on the equator. So what else can you measure to give a clue to longitude? Without a clock, I can think of nothing.

    The best measure of longitude then boils down to dead reckoning. How accurately can you estimate how far you have travelled each day in the east/west direction? Not easy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    make that same hour sunset that along a month doesnt change that much
    So you are restricting your method to the few days in a month when the moon is visible at sunset? And how accurately can the time of sunset be determined?

    Is this any better than the old technique of just measuring your speed and hence distance travelled?
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    I might add that this problem is one that navies round the world put enormous time and money into, with the cleverest minds of the time trying to come up with a system. Until the invention of the first chronometer, no-one could think of a method better than dead reckoning. I doubt that we lesser minds can either.

    It is not just lack of a clock, of course. People have had clocks for hundreds of years. It is the need for a clock that is sufficiently accurate - a chronometer. Clocks in the old pre-chronometer days would gain or lose 5 minutes a day. Not accurate enough for longitude calculation.
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    Did the Polynesians have a workable system for longitude? The idea that at a given latitude and longitude pairs of stars will rise or descend below the horizon at the same time. Given there incredible journeys on the fastest human ships of the day, if such a system was possible they'd have found it. Anything good enough to get them within range of sea birds, wave patterns and other clues about where they were relative to particular islands.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; March 11th, 2012 at 06:50 PM.
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    There's a great short book called "Longitude" by Dava Sobel. Lucky for me, I read it just before visiting the Royal Observatory in London, so I had great appreciation for the clocks and chronometers displayed there. I HIGHLY recommend the book. It gives the actual (not fictional) account of measuring longitude, which all comes down to time.
    Last edited by MeteorWayne; March 12th, 2012 at 05:48 AM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Did the Polynesians have a workable system for longitude? The idea that at a given latitude and longitude pairs of stars will rise or descend below the horizon at the same time. Given there incredible journeys on the fastest human ships of the day, if such a system was possible they'd have found it. Anything good enough to get them within range of sea birds, wave patterns and other clues about where they were relative to particular islands.
    To the best of my knowledge, no.
    They had the same technique sailing ship navigators used - dead reckoning.
    Mostly, of course, Polynesian voyages were just a day or two, and they could use some of the clues you mentioned - sea bird flight, wave patterns, debris from islands and so on, to tell them when they were close to an island.

    For longer voyages, they had methods of assessing latitude. They could sail to the required latitude and then travel due east (or west) towards their destination, till they saw signs of land, which they would hone in on.
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    sorry english aint my 1st language

    i doubt many people tried to solve this problem after the invention of clock

    here it goes again:

    if your watching the sun and moon at grennwich stopped:

    sun moves faster than the moon

    if your moving going east:

    sun goes faster than seen still from greenwich and moon goes slower than from greenwhich since youre following its orbit

    after a whole travel around earth this offset will be of three days along a month (since you advanced the sun one revolution and delayed the moon one revolution)while still from greenwhich would be just one day offset along a month

    from here its easy to calculate longitude

    this wouldnt be valid for plane trips but for ship trips that lasts months would be perfect
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    sorry english aint my 1st language
    And science isn't a subject you seem to know much about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    i doubt many people tried to solve this problem after the invention of clock
    Because there wasn't a problem after the invention of the chronometer. (Note: ships had clocks before that.)

    You are ignoring the fact you would need an accurate clock (aka chronometer) to measure the time at which you check the position of the moon.

    Also, the moon changes shape during the period of a month. Which bit of the moon do you use for this? How can you make that measurement accurately enough?
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    no i count sunsets and moonsets for a month

    in greenwich still: i count 28 sunsets and 29 moonsets

    after a travel east aorund the world: i count 27 sunsets and 30 moonsets

    by the 3 days offset where should be one i know im at longitude 360º
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    no i count sunsets and moonsets for a month

    in greenwich still: i count 28 sunsets and 29 moonsets

    after a travel east aorund the world: i count 27 sunsets and 30 moonsets
    I don't understand how that is going to pin your position down. If you stay where you are, you will see a slow change in the relative timing (how are you measuring that, by the way) between sunsets and moonsets. If you are moving, you will see a slight difference in that rate of change. How are you going to measure that (without a clock)?

    by the 3 days offset where should be one i know im at longitude 360º
    Is that longitude 360 relative to your start? You are back at your starting point. I think you woul notice that anyway.

    By the third day, if you have travelled 1000km east, how big is the time difference between moonset and sunset compared to your starting point? And how are you going to measure that difference?
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    ooh, oooh, oooh....can I answer?

    A CLOCK (or more correctly for the topic, a chronometer).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    no i count sunsets and moonsets for a month

    in greenwich still: i count 28 sunsets and 29 moonsets

    after a travel east aorund the world: i count 27 sunsets and 30 moonsets
    I don't understand how that is going to pin your position down. If you stay where you are, you will see a slow change in the relative timing (how are you measuring that, by the way) between sunsets and moonsets. If you are moving, you will see a slight difference in that rate of change. How are you going to measure that (without a clock)?

    by the 3 days offset where should be one i know im at longitude 360º
    Is that longitude 360 relative to your start? You are back at your starting point. I think you woul notice that anyway.

    By the third day, if you have travelled 1000km east, how big is the time difference between moonset and sunset compared to your starting point? And how are you going to measure that difference?

    360º 2 days offset

    180º 1 day ofset
    90º 12 hour ofset
    45º 6 hour offset
    22º 3 hour ofset
    11º 1.5 hour ofset

    and you dont need a watch just a nedel that aims the sun and a needle that aims the moon and measure the offset and compare it with the one that there would be in greenwich, see my 1st post for the device in question

    i dont think in 3 days trip you could measure you would need at least a month, thats why this is only appropiate for ships
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    and you dont need a watch just a nedel that aims the sun and a needle that aims the moon and measure the offset and compare it with the one that there would be in greenwich, see my 1st post for the device in question
    How big is the difference in the angle between sun and moon at, say, 1000km east compared with Greenwich?

    How do you accurately determine the angle between the sun and moon? Your answer should take into account the difficulty of looking at the sun and seeing its edge, the changing phases of the moon.

    And how many days in the month are both the sun and the moon visible at the same time?

    i dont think in 3 days trip you could measure you would need at least a month, thats why this is only appropiate for ships
    You don't think a ship might need to know its location every day for accurate navigation? If they can only work out their position after 30 days, that is worse than traditional dead reckoning.
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    i copy past from my 1st post:

    you make a device in whcih one nedel aims the sun


    and a disc aims the moon in which theres a needle which you delay 1/28 every day

    it would seem something like this but not mecahnical but manual:




    from greenwhich both neeldes will always coincide


    after a revolution to earth along almost a month needles will delay TWO REVOLUTIONS along 360º


    so if you can get a precision of 10th of the disc yyou can measure longitude with a precision of 5 degrees by measuring both needles difference
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    What is a nedel? or is it neeldes?

    Oh, it's needles.

    How do you get 1/10 of disc precision?

    (this is a quiz question, the answer is actually pretty easy))

    And what was the point of the image in your last post. Like pretty pictures (and I will grant it was that) adds gravitas to your post?
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    needle im dixlexic

    i dont calim it to be better than gps but is better than nothing if you lack a clock

    in fact probably any culture that counted moons like native american knew about this
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    needle im dixlexic

    i dont calim it to be better than gps but is better than nothing if you lack a clock

    in fact probably any culture that counted moons like native american knew about this
    Your dyslexia is no excuse for sloppy posting.

    The point is, on the seas, until there were accurate chronometers, longitude had a lot of uncertainty. Afterward, the uncertainty was much lower, which is important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    you make a device in whcih one nedel aims the sun
    Which bit of the sun? Have you tried aiming something at the sun? What do you do with all those blind sailors?

    Which bit of the moon? How do you account for the phases?

    so if you can get a precision of 10th of the disc yyou can measure longitude with a precision of 5 degrees by measuring both needles difference
    An accuracy of 550km. Is that good enough?

    By the way, this isn't a new idea: Lunar distance (navigation) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This idea is rather more practical than your idea because it compares the position of the moon to the stars (you do understand that is equivalent to your proposal, don't you?) which means it isn't limited to those days when the sun and moon are visible at the same time. How many days is that, by the way?

    Of course with chronometers, radio time signals, LORAN, GPS, etc. this is all pretty irrelevant.
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    well in fact obtaining longitude in the begining of the trip was very precise

    but after 3 months trip the clock was so delayed it was useless

    my method on the other hand after 3 months gets maximum precision

    that the books say so dont disprove my point, the books might be wrong theyre not the quaram
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    By the way, I will say "well done" for coming up with this idea yourself. The fact that it is an old idea (and not the most practical) does not detract from that.

    On the use of this method: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_longitude

    Quote Originally Posted by WP
    The lunar distance method was initially labour intensive because of the time-consuming complexity of the calculations for the Moon's position. Early trials of the method could involve four hours of effort. However, the publication of the Nautical Almanac starting in 1767 provided tables of pre-calculated distances of the Moon from various celestial objects at three-hour intervals for every day of the year, making the process practical by reducing the time for calculations to less than 30 minutes and as little as ten minutes with some efficient tabular methods. Lunar distances were widely used at sea from 1767 to about 1850.
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_lunar_distances

    Effect of Lunar Distance Errors on calculated LongitudeA lunar distance changes with time at a rate of roughly half a degree, or 30 arc-minutes, in an hour.[1] Therefore, an error of half an arc-minute will give rise to an error of about 1 minute in Greenwich Time, which (owing to the Earth rotating at 15 degrees per hour) is the same as one quarter degree in longitude (about 15 nmi (28 km) at the equator).

    so without a clock its posible to measure longitude with 28 km mistake just with sextant and tables

    one year of spheric trig, one of astronomy, one of navigation learning that the only solution of the longitude problem was clocks and thats no more after this thread




    nicholas_cage_a_p.jpg

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    What do those photos have to do with anything?

    Are you complaining that you weren't taught about this method? Were you taught how to measure speed with a rope tied to a log? What is the point of teaching redundant techniques? (Other than in a history class)
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    to the risk of sending an interesting topic to the garbage id say from my point of view reality and history has changed

    end of eternity by asmov anyone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    to the risk of sending an interesting topic to the garbage id say from my point of view reality and history has changed
    Would you care to explain that. How do you think reality and history has changed? Just because you have learnt something new?

    Or do you you think the lunar method did not exist until you thought of it, and then someone took the idea back in time and explained it to Maskelyne? But that would be silly, even for you...
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    no because i was taught ESXAHUASTLY that the only way to figure out longitude is clocks

    from my point of view reality has changed after this thread

    really i dont know if its time travel or im just crazy

    though my thinking of time travel is not this the only reason its my full life
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    from my point of view reality has changed after this thread
    Well, you have learned something new. Happens all the time. If you find that you are not learning anything new, it probably means you are dead.
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    well in any case ill go on with my device to see if somone slips it though history

    basically its a solar clock with a disc turning aiming at the moon with a needle you dealy each day 1/28

    from greenwhich the needle on the disc aiming at the moon will always coincide with the sun shadow

    now if youve traveled 180º east both needles ( the moon needle and the sun shadow) will have offset 24 hours

    so 90º 12 hours

    45º 6 hours
    22º 3 hours

    11 1.5 hours

    5º 45 minutes
    2º 22 minutes
    1º 11 minutes
    the days which you can see sun and moon you could measure very precisely
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    the days which you can see sun and moon you could measure very precisely
    And how many of those are there?
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    at see with clean air every sunset and sunrise

    12 years ago i was talking to a friend about my design for a star clock

    he told me nowhere strars are brighter than at sea, he is a cpatain

    so i got to study nautics

    now im about to finish during this time i got too crazy as to sail but anyway seems what i was taught was not truth

    well ill have to teach english at 10 euro an hour maybe some low grade phiscis
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well ill have to teach english at 10 euro an hour maybe some low grade phiscis
    How can you possibly get a job teaching either physics or English when you have no skill or knowledge of either?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    well i have a degree in english filology though it was centered mostly in literature

    i speak pretty good for the average in spain

    man i tech ten years old how good do you have to speak for that, for that work my gift is my patience which you can verify on this forums
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    also i wonder why this method doesn appear in any fiction work but the clock bs its everyhwere
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    also i wonder why this method doesn appear in any fiction work but the clock bs its everyhwere
    It is all part of a conspiracy to hide the truth from you. All publishers and authors have to sign an agreement that they won't mention it. But now you have found out about it, it will probably start turning up in books and movies.
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    also i realize that the lunar distance method is identical to mine in whcih it compares lunar and solar time

    yet i hardly understand it since its so obscure

    proabbly obscured on purpose

    prettty petty plz im bad googling i bet if you want you could find my simple device now we agree every day at sunset when you can see the sun and the moon even the drunkest sailor could obtain longitude with a precision of 1º with my solar-lunar clock

    but this is scarry if im that crazy how could i have solved independently a problem for which the highest prize was offered

    il bite my tongue for now on time travel but just for now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    also i wonder why this method doesn appear in any fiction work but the clock bs its everyhwere
    It is all part of a conspiracy to hide the truth from you. All publishers and authors have to sign an agreement that they won't mention it. But now you have found out about it, it will probably start turning up in books and movies.
    be carefull i know youre saying the truth
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  49. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Not so Strange
    It is all part of a conspiracy to hide the truth from you. All publishers and authors have to sign an agreement that they won't mention it. But now you have found out about it, it will probably start turning up in books and movies.
    be carefull i know youre saying the truth
    I should probably send a link to this thread to the Illuminati and the Masons so they know they can remove the ban on mentioning the lunar method. Oh yes, and the Knights of St John and the Rosicrucians. Is there anyone else who needs to know. Oh yeah, the Lizard People who run the Matrix.

    Oh hang on, hasn't it been on Wikipedia for years? Oh well, no point then. I must be imagining things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    I might add that this problem is one that navies round the world put enormous time and money into, with the cleverest minds of the time trying to come up with a system. Until the invention of the first chronometer, no-one could think of a method better than dead reckoning. I doubt that we lesser minds can either.

    It is not just lack of a clock, of course. People have had clocks for hundreds of years. It is the need for a clock that is sufficiently accurate - a chronometer. Clocks in the old pre-chronometer days would gain or lose 5 minutes a day. Not accurate enough for longitude calculation.
    well i beated the brightest minds of that time since i solved it without a clock with a precision of one degree

    how do you explain that if even myself gotta admitt im utterly insane?

    this video you may identify some gladiator image



    but to what movie does the beatifull barbarian woman slaying romans legs belong to?

    well those are real images obtained via time travel

    the odd mounting of the images is due to it was made to sync my thoughts when i first watch it

    for example the 1st time i watched i could clearly see how those barabarinas which some of them are actually my antecesors influenced the romasn to caught the arrows but next time i couldnt grasp that, the perfect mount, that in which every time you change thought it changes plane, the one you watch without winking

    again if im this crazy how could i solve this problem myself where some of the brightest minds failed

    what if though admiting my craze im right about the rest as well
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well those are real images obtained via time travel
    Impressive.

    the odd mounting of the images is due to it was made to sync my thoughts when i first watch it
    And you think you can teach English? (Voc relamento aca que ensinar podo Inglish?)
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    you havent answered my question:

    i think we can both agree im utterly nuts

    yet how i have then solved this problem were some of the brightest minds failed?

    plz understand me when i made this thread i was expecting to be proved wrong

    i was proved right and i WAS happy thinking everything i think is wrong

    but oh well im supsicious god exists she is ggood and therefore all horror of news is fake news spread by the mafia to rule through terror

    i would like to be right about that one

    but i wouldnt like to be right about tt
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  53. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    yet how i have then solved this problem were some of the brightest minds failed?
    How failed? From Wikipedia: "Lunar distances were widely used at sea from 1767 to about 1850."
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    SOME of the brightestest minds

    concretely those prior to 1767

    imagine i had lived in columbus time and was a lascivous priest with accest to knowledge and not now

    they would speak spanish in the whole world after my solar lunar clock design

    humm this is getting frikier bt moment



    seem the knowledge was outhere
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    all right here the bomb:

    this clock dated 1500 can measure longitude with 1º error even if it delays 10 hour a day

    App Store - Sun & Moon Clockow it works:

    you correct every day the 10 hour delay by aiming the sun and moon dial to the sun and moon as you sail away

    the 24 marks graduation is wrong it was used a 28 mark graduation

    so if along a 28 day trip theyre ofset 28 marks you havent moved place

    now if youve traveled 360º east along 28 days needles will be offset 72 hour , you substarct one for every day trip what gives you an offset of 48 hours

    so every hour of offset in that clock is 7.5º of longitude since 48 hours of offset is 360º of longitude

    Last edited by luxtpm; March 12th, 2012 at 12:28 PM.
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    So now we are back to needing a clock. And the accuracy of the clock determines how accurately you can measure longitude. Well, that is all very standard. What we need is a more accurate clock. We could call it a ... chronometer.

    The clock in your picture looks a little large to take round the world...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The clock in your picture looks a little large to take round the world...
    I am reasonably sure that is the clock at Hampton Court. If so I saw that first over half a century ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I am reasonably sure that is the clock at Hampton Court. If so I saw that first over half a century ago.
    You can't have. It didn't exist until luxtpm posted a picture here and prompted the Illuminati to go back in time and create it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    SOME of the brightestest minds

    concretely those prior to 1767

    imagine i had lived in columbus time and was a lascivous priest with accest to knowledge and not now

    they would speak spanish in the whole world after my solar lunar clock design

    humm this is getting frikier bt moment


    seem the knowledge was outhere
    If you had read the linked articles you would know that the lunar distance method was discovered in 1514, but didn't become practical until they had better charts of stellar positions and the moon's movement.
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    yes but check this device:

    210111-0114.jpg

    i rediscovered the true clock supressed by history:

    28 hour dial

    small needel the sun

    big needle the moon

    third neeedle the count of days

    you have sun time and moon time local or greenwhci and longitude
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    with this clock you get local time with the sundial

    you get local time and also youre knowing greenwhich time which is indicanted by the counting sunsets dial and moon dial difference, one hour of diference between both times points therefore to your position as 1 -28th of earth from grenwhich whatever that is

    well a proof history is forged

    check out the similtudes between my design:

    28 hour dial

    nedel for the sun

    nedel for the moon

    nedel to count one hour each sunset




    and this designed supresed with time:




    at least youll admit i solved the longitude problem with no need of stellar chart which makes me actually smart which may make me right on people forgering their destiny by time travel

    edit:

    also its a precise compass with it you can calculate true north with precision by sun and moon position
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  62. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well a proof history is forged

    check out the similtudes between my design:

    28 hour dial

    nedel for the sun

    nedel for the moon

    nedel to count one hour each sunset

    and this designed supresed with time:

    This is an astronomical clock. Of course it has a needle for the Sun and a Moon indicator.

    It has a 24 hour dial.

    They are not suppressed by time, either:
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    28 hour dial missing

    sunset count dial missing

    without those a usel pos

    edit:

    seems the true calendar is been supressed-forgotten:



    http://www.13moon.com/faq.htm










    Last edited by luxtpm; March 12th, 2012 at 06:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post

    [URL="http://www.13moon.com/faq.htm"]http://www.13moon.com/faq.htm
    Nice woo site
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    Another nice woo site. You must spend all day trying to find them. Time for another youtube video (I lasted 18 seconds into your last one before hitting the silver handle)
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    yeah but i was making sense where you did say i was making none

    didnt i?
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    Yes, well done! You worked out that we can tell our approximate longitude using the Sun and the Moon. That is no mean feat. If you had lived in the 15th Century you would have been a hero!

    The idea of science is to build upon previous discoveries. In order to do that, you have to learn what we currently know, in order to build upon it. There is little point in working out something that has already been worked out, except as an exersize.

    So, might I humbly suggest you decide what you are interested in, and then learn what we know about it already, before trying to work it out for yourself. This applies especially to the fields of optics and electromagnetism.
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    No, not really...
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    then so whats wrong of the solar-lunar-day counter dial

    it tells local sun-moon time and greenwhich moon-sun time and therefore longitude

    you sound to me like a priest who like to bully those possesed by demons, wackos if you rather call them
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    There is nothing wrong with it. Use it if you want. Go back a few centuries in accuracy.

    I'll just use a GPS unit.
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    what if the gps goes wrong

    you can find north and latitude with the north pole star

    but with this simple manual clock anyone can obtain longitude with high precision, 28 km according wiki

    also think how good nature fits the 28 hour clock

    13 moons of 28 days make 364 days

    so all you have to account for to have extreme precision through trips of even years would be delaying one mark every 13 moon

    so the natural clock has 28 hours of 13 minutes=364 minutes so with this you could even track stations

    besides though i belive "my" clock was anciently known it doesnt seem to have passed down to history since my method requires two seconds to obtain longitude while the lunar distance method takes four hours of calculation

    yet if humanty existed 1000 million times most times it will reach the 28 hour clock while the arbitrary 24 will happen a minority of times
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    You do realize there is a tiny bit less than 365.25 days in a year, right? How does that work out with a 364+1 day year?

    Also there are many different actual lunar months..and none of them equal 28 days:

    1. The draconic month or nodal month is the period in which the Moon returns to the same node of its orbit; the nodes are the two points where the Moon's orbit crosses the plane of the Earth's orbit. Its duration is about 27.21222 days on average.

    2. The tropical month is the time for the Moon to return to the same ecliptic longitude, i.e., measured from the equinox; it is slightly shorter than the sidereal month, 27.32158, because of precession of the equinoxes.

    3. The Moon's orbital period in a non-rotating frame of reference (which on average is equal to its rotation period) is about 27.32166 days (27 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes, 11.6 seconds). This is known as a sidereal month and is measured by observing how long it takes the Moon to pass a fixed star on the celestial sphere.

    4. An anomalistic month is the Moon's orbital period measured from perigee to perigee - the point in the Moon's orbit when it is closest to Earth. An anomalistic month is about 27.55455 days on average.

    5. A synodic month is 29.53059 days (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes, 2.8 seconds) and is measured from New Moon to New Moon. A New Moon is defined as occurring when the Moon has the same ecliptic longitude as the Sun, as seen from the center of the Earth: i.e., when the Sun, Moon and Earth are almost on one line. A synodic month is longer than a sidereal month because the Earth-Moon system is orbiting the Sun in the same direction as the Moon is orbiting the Earth. Therefore, the Sun appears to move with respect to the stars, and it takes about 2.2 days longer for the Moon to return to the apparent position of the Sun. The synodic month is the most common way of expressing the lunar cycle.
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    and all added together and obtained the medai add almost exactly 28 days

    now i ask you how can we take the day as 24 hours for day duration if each day of the year vary so much in duration as the moon does
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    "and all added together and obtained the medai add almost exactly 28 days" No they don't. And since it isn't exactly 28 days, what's the point?

    Also, Each day doesn't vary. Earth rotates at the same speed (give or take a microsecond once in a while) every day, all the time. That's why a day is a day.

    I can see math is not your specialty (in addition to English)
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  76. #75  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    what if the gps goes wrong
    I'll know where I was when it went wrong, to within 10 metres! Then I'll use a sextant and chronometer (19km precision at best).

    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    also think how good nature fits the 28 hour clock

    13 moons of 28 days make 364 days

    so all you have to account for to have extreme precision through trips of even years would be delaying one mark every 13 moon
    Every year would be a leap year, and every fourth year would be a double leap year. Nice one!

    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    yet if humanty existed 1000 million times most times it will reach the 28 hour clock while the arbitrary 24 will happen a minority of times
    Do you know how we came to have a 24 hour clock? And how long that was before we required an accurate longitude?
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    well i didnt really know but seems i guessed right according the wiki:

    The 24-hour clock is a *********convention********** of time keeping in which the day runs from midnight to midnight and is divided into 24 hours, indicated by the hours passed since midnight, from 0 to 23. This system is the most commonly used time notation in the world today

    dont you agree that my 28 hours dial at least makes sense is not just cause i like the number?
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    No, not really. It could just as easily be 10 hours, or 1000 minutes, or 10,000 minutes, or 33 shreflugs, or 183 gerfenslugels. It's just a convention for use by the whole world.
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    from there my afiramtion:

    building a natural clock with 28 hours, sun dial, moon dial, count of days dial

    is universal like science

    build a convention al clock is a strangeness like religion
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    Your posts are their own special kind of strangeness...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    "and all added together and obtained the medai add almost exactly 28 days" No they don't. And since it isn't exactly 28 days, what's the point?

    Also, Each day doesn't vary. Earth rotates at the same speed (give or take a microsecond once in a while) every day, all the time. That's why a day is a day.

    I can see math is not your specialty (in addition to English)
    24 hours takes a sun rotation in the sky not an earth rotation

    the same problem you point happens with the moon as with the sun if they rounded the sun rotation time i think we can round the moon time to 28 add one hour every 13 moons and an extra hour evry bisiest year

    oh and rememebr this is a MANUAL clock it only delays if the sun or moon delays
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    No, the earth rotates once on it's axis every 24 hours. It revolves around the sun in 365.2422 days
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    heck then why do you think noon happens at 12 EVERY DAY but because the sun revolves in the sky every 24 hours and at 12 is in the zenith?

    youre confused by the obscured education youve had
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    No, silly boy. The sun doesn't revolve in 24 hours, the earth rotates on it's axis in 24 hours. ENGLISH!!! Science requires that you use terms correctly.
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    anyway youve brought up an interesting point variation in speed bring error

    which error?

    the same than in this picture the sun offsets from the zentih, picture taken exactly every 24 hours for a year, although the graph could be carved in the clock

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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    No, silly boy. The sun doesn't revolve in 24 hours, the earth rotates on it's axis in 24 hours. ENGLISH!!! Science requires that you use terms correctly.
    then how do you explain that noon(noon: when the sun is at the zenith) happens exaclty every 24 hour at 12

    if earths rotation lasts exactly 24 hours if you take into account earth translation around the sun noon wouldnt be at the zenith but in half year would be in the nadir

    now i wonder if you really follow this thread of youre a bully who has a predisposition for crackpots because youre not understanding that the time that goes on among noons avearge during a year is whats by agreement a day 24 hours

    ill be extra patience as with the kids i teach english:

    do you agree a day its 24 hours?

    do you agree a day is what takes the sun to make a revolution in the sky

    do you realize a revolution of the sun in the sky is not the same time than a revolution of earth from a fixed frame

    if you dint follow these easy steps to see where you went worng plz ask and ill try to help
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    That has NOTHING to to with the earth rotating on it's axis every 24 hours. The analemma has to do with the eccentricity of the earth's orbit. However, that also doesn't change the fact that the earth revolves around the sun in 365.24224 days. You keep bringing up unrelated topics; it's almost as if you don't know what the hell you are talking about. OMG, could that be it??????
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    well by your deviating the conversation i understand you admitt a day lasts 24 h and a day is a revolution of the sun in the sky not a revolution of earth

    i dont care how long a year lasts who cares you got confused with that dont want to confuse me with it
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    well that delay is nglectable for what delays the sun delays the moon
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well by your deviating the conversation i understand you admitt a day lasts 24 h and a day is a revolution of the sun in the sky not a revolution of earth

    i dont care how long a year lasts who cares you got confused with that dont want to confuse me with it
    Are you dense or what? The sun does not revolve around the earth. The earth rotates on it's axis in 24 hours. That's why the sun appears at the same point (roughly) in the sky.

    You are so confused, and use scientific terms incorrectly. It's pointless but I enjoy talking to turnips.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post



    well that delay is nglectable for what delays the sun delays the moon
    No it's not. You have no freakin' clue.

    Once again another pretty picture (which is very nice, BTW) TOTALLY unrelated to the topic.
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    so what of this you dont understand?

    do you agree a day its 24 hours?

    do you agree a day is what APPEARS to take the sun to make a revolution in the sky?

    do you realize THE TIME THAT APPEARS TO TAKE a revolution of the sun in the sky is not the same time than a revolution of earth from a fixed frame?

    with what of this questions do you disagree?

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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well by your deviating the conversation i understand you admitt a day lasts 24 h and a day is a revolution of the sun in the sky not a revolution of earth
    Oh, good grief. Listen to what MeteorWayne is telling you. He's obviously right. The day is the length that it is because of the earth's rotation about its own axis. The earth completes an orbit about the sun every 365.24+ days. If you don't understand these fundamental facts, you've got more serious problems than re-inventing ancient navigational methods.
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    No, you appear to be too dense to understand the difference between rotation and revolution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well by your deviating the conversation i understand you admitt a day lasts 24 h and a day is a revolution of the sun in the sky not a revolution of earth
    Oh, good grief. Listen to what MeteorWayne is telling you. He's obviously right. The day is the length that it is because of the earth's rotation about its own axis. The earth completes an orbit about the sun every 365.24+ days. If you don't understand these fundamental facts, you've got more serious problems than re-inventing ancient navigational methods.
    oh for gods sake now this is annoying

    if a rotation of earth takes 24 hours and a translation 365 days

    A DAY WOULD NOT LAST 24 HOURS BUT 24+(24/365)

    THAT ITS 24 HOURS AND 4 MINUTES

    i noticed it before in this forum people have no clue what theyre talking about, this forum is just a withc hunt of free thinkers

    man check your definition of day:

    day: time between noons(less precisley between sunsets or between sunrises)=24 hours

    WHATS WRONG OF THIS SIMPLE PIECE OF INFO

    edit in fact if you were not a bunch of bullies ignorants you would know from this figures earth rotates every 23 hours and 56 minutes X (
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    in fact you have a big mouth to insult an small balls to retract but yeah in groups you rule like hienas:

    Period of Rotation of the Earth
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well by your deviating the conversation i understand you admitt a day lasts 24 h and a day is a revolution of the sun in the sky not a revolution of earth
    Oh, good grief. Listen to what MeteorWayne is telling you. He's obviously right. The day is the length that it is because of the earth's rotation about its own axis. The earth completes an orbit about the sun every 365.24+ days. If you don't understand these fundamental facts, you've got more serious problems than re-inventing ancient navigational methods.
    now i proved it was the other way around will you apply to yourself same ruler you applied with me?
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    I can't argue with vegetables any more tonight, or I'll say something really bad and get banned. So see ya tomorrow
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    This is why it's important to use precise language, and instead of just "day" specify whether it's a sidereal or solar day. A few good sketches, near the start of the thread would have helped as well. One eventually got in but it unclear how it's to be used. For example where do the needles get pointed? At their rise or points on the horizon? At the maximum elevation points?
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    so you make a device in whcih one nedel aims the sun


    and a disc aims the moon in which theres a needle which you delay 1/28 every day
    That's a clock - if you are doing this at the same time in the 24 hour day.

    The phases of the moon present difficulties in specifying the aim point. The Sun is of course even more difficult to sight on precisely. and many days the sun and moon do not share the sky, the sun's light obliterates the moon image, etc. The error involved is easily enough to miss a medium sized island, or hit a small but unfortunately well braced rock or reef, or miscalculate distances traveled and remaining by many days of sail.
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    luxtpm - you have mentioned that English is not your native language. You have also mentioned, I think, that you are dyslexic. These factors, in combination make it very difficult to follow your arguments. moreover, you often use words very loosely - this is bad news in an scientific discussion. All put together, the end result is that even if you are actually making a sensible proposition it sounds dumb. Can I urge you in this and future threads to take considerably more time in preparing your posts. Check the spelling. Check the grammar as far as you are able. Define terms very clearly. This may help you to get a more favourable hearing.
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