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Thread: could the ancients be right and be the sky a dome?

  1. #1 could the ancients be right and be the sky a dome? 
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    the sun from the moon has an angular size of 0.5º


    so does the sun from earth


    so the rim of the shadow in an eclipse seen from earth should have a size of 0.5º


    i made a drawing on how eclipses should be if they were real





    compare it with this everpresent explanation on the net which you now know why its false(it doesn have a gradual shade:



    also i verified myself that far away objects the shadow border its invisible:





    edit:


    and the pictures of space walk cherry picked to be the sun in the zenith in 99.9% of cases well...


    check out here as well night never comes


    China's Space Walk Was FAKE (part 1) - YouTube


    so can i honestly be called crazy when i make full use of my reason?


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  3. #2  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    No the Sky is NOT a dome


    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    compare it with this everpresent explanation on the net which you now know why its false(it doesn have a gradual shade
    What do you think "penumbra" means? That is the "half shadow" that fades from full to no shadow.

    also i verified myself that far away objects the shadow border its invisible
    Good start. But did you consider relative sizes and distances, the effects of the atmosphere, etc.

    check out here as well night never comes
    China's Space Walk Was FAKE (part 1) - YouTube
    Sorry, it has been scientifically proven that DuhTube only counts as evidence if your IQ is below 75. Evidence? I'm sure it's on YouToob somewhere...

    so can i honestly be called crazy when i make full use of my reason?
    Apparently, yes.
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  5. #4  
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    luxtpm,

    Have you ever watched a lunar eclipse? Because your ignorance of the phenomena indicates you haven't.

    Also, any comparisons with earth shadows are invalid anyway since:

    Other nearby objects reflect light.

    There is an atmosphere down here, in case you haven't noticed.
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  6. #5  
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    the concept here its THE GRADUAL SHADE with infiniote tones of greys

    evry diagram of eclipse like this is just a lie cause it has no gradual shade, like this, this just has 3 tones of grey:



    if youre not able to prove my arguments wrong you have no moral right to call me crazy however crazy is what i say

    i challenge to find a right diagram of eclipse with gradual shade

    oh you cant, then you know the lie is massive

    this is how eclipses should be if they were real

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  7. #6  
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    Where does the dome start?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  8. #7  
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    Solar eclipse from Mir Space station. Notice the very fuzzy edge in the penumbra.

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    plz show me a diagram of an eclipse like mine

    a penumbra of gradual shade

    why there are none but mine?

    of course if they did it like that the eclipse would look totally different and people would realize

    the same lie over and over like if you keep saying 2+2 equal five it would become true

    moon eclipse umbra - Buscar con Google
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  10. #9  
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    plz show me a diagram of an eclipse like mine
    You mean like this?

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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    the same lie over and over like if you keep saying 2+2 equal five it would become true
    Careful. If you want to discuss your idea go ahead, but keep the heated rhetoric to a minimum.
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    Again, I have to ask (since you did not answer):

    luxtpm,

    Have you ever watched a lunar eclipse? Because your ignorance of the phenomena indicates you haven't.
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    yes i have

    that eclipse diagram just shows 3 tones of grey

    i mean something of gradual shade with infinite tones of grey like mine
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    dont you spot the different betwen this:





    exactly mine has infinite tones of grey, what i call a gradual shadow

    the other only has two tones of grey and therefore its a deception
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    i mean something of gradual shade with infinite tones of grey like mine
    Yes that's what's happening. Near the outside of the penumbra, the moon would shadow only a small part of the sun, while near the inside of the penumbra the moon would shadow most, but not quite all of the sun.

    Is your complaint that the graphical depictions, such as the on I posted, are misleading because they give the impression there are only three light levels? If so, I agree, though the gradations of gray aren't too hard to figure out once you know what it represents.

    (on a personal note this exactly the kind of things I look for as I start to teach High School science--where kids can misinterpret things based on bad sketches that are all-to-common in text books)

    The sidewalk example might not be the best example because if you take the width of the sun's angle and project it's shadow, you'd find that penubra would be extremely narrow unless you're very close to the shading object (just behind a tree trunk).

    --
    Not sure what this has to do with your dome idea.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; December 30th, 2011 at 04:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    evry diagram of eclipse like this is just a lie cause it has no gradual shade, like this, this just has 3 tones of grey:
    So your crazy theory is based on you taking a simplified line drawing too literally?
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    well the point is that unbra shadow in an eclipse sholud be inivisible like this but it isnt what its suspicious:



    edit:

    the fact is that eclipses as we know them can only happen in those simplified diagrams

    no wonder hardly ALL diagrams are like that
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  18. #17  
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    is that unbra shadow in an eclipse sholud be inivisible like this but it isnt what its suspicious:
    I don't understand what you are trying to communicate.

    The shadow of the man is quite distinct; I don't feel like doing the trig, but the umbra is probably less than a cm wide. I don't know what's making the rest of the shadow. If it's a very tall building, and the sun is low so it cast a shadow hundreds of feet away, that umbra, and all it's "shades of grey," will be wide and obvious--atmospheric scattering will increase it further.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; December 30th, 2011 at 06:46 PM.
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    [irrelevant and confused content deleted]

    And what has any of this got to do with a "dome" anyway? And where do you think this "dome is?
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    exactly mine has infinite tones of grey, what i call a gradual shadow

    the other only has two tones of grey and therefore its a deception
    So your complaint is that the simplified diagram is too ... simple? Deception is a bit strong, maybe a "lie to children". But one of the reasons for doing a simple diagram is to omit unnecessary detail. I must admit, it had never occurred to me that this diagram was too simple, it just seemed obvious that the penumbra would fade from full-shadow to no-shadow.

    However, if you look at a real eclipse it will be as you expect it to be (e.g. see photo in post #7).

    So where is the problem?
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    yes i have

    that eclipse diagram just shows 3 tones of grey

    i mean something of gradual shade with infinite tones of grey like mine
    Apparently not. The diagram is a simplification. A REAL eclipse is much more subtle. The first hour of the penumbra is pretty much impossible to see. As the penumbra gets closer to the moon, you can see a very slight darkening of the moon's limb closest to the approachong umbra. But it's still very subtle.

    Again, I suspect you've never actually watched a whole lunar eclipse from beginning to end, or you wouldn't be saying the foolish things you are.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well the point is that unbra shadow in an eclipse sholud be inivisible like this but it isnt what its suspicious:


    Can we be sure this picture is an unaltered image? The shadows of the person at the top left and the pole in the center right, combined with the overall bright tones seem to suggest, to me at least, that the image was take in the early afternoon on an overcast day, and the bright light plus shadow of person was added afterwards.

    Also not the dark shadow directly under the bench in the upper middle. It does not coincide with the late afternoon shadow in the center.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post

    so can i honestly be called crazy when i make full use of my reason?
    My friend, even before I read post 21 it was immediately clear to me that the OP photo has been photoshopped. None of the light levels, shadow size & directions etc match up.
    Not sure about the other members of this forum, but in my mind presenting evidence that has been deliberately tampered with in support of someone's own ideas should be sufficient reason to close this thread down. Perhaps the forum moderators would like to take a closer look at this.
    The whole basic premise is a no-go anway - there have been eclipses for as long as mankind has been around, and there is nothing mysterious, wrong or even remotely unexplained about them. I myself have been in several eclipses of both moon and sun in my travelling years, and I can assure you that everything was just as it was supposed to be.
    Complete waste of time.

    And in the future will you please spare us the YouTube links - anyone can produce a YouTube video in his back yard, it is not acceptable evidence in support of a scientific idea.
    Last edited by Markus Hanke; December 31st, 2011 at 03:07 AM.
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    the picture is not photoshoped it proves that far away umbras are invisible

    also if eclispse diagrams were right people would know why theyre a lie, so they extended the lie to the diagrams
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  25. #24  
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    if its not photoshoped why do the size perspectives, lighting, and shadows not match? Where did you get the image?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    the picture is not photoshoped it proves that far away umbras are invisible
    You mean the border, and saying it's invisible in pretty sloppy language. Saying non-distinct or fuzzy might be better; is that what you meant?


    also if eclispse diagrams were right people would know why theyre a lie, so they extended the lie to the diagrams
    Look up definition of "lie," then stop using it in this context. I'm not going to repeat this warning.
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    i did the picture myself:

    the horizontal sshadow that its at my knees is the farthest building shadow i could get

    thats why its less non disticnt thatn the others

    my point is that if they made realistic diagrams like this:



    people would understand that eclipses dont fit:

    it should go from 100% shadow to 0% shadow smoothly along the whole moon size

    is it so dificult to make a diagram with different tones of grey?
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  28. #27  
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    Given the uniform light tones and midday lighting positions of the rest of the shadows in the image, where is the bight halo of light coming from in the center of the image?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    you mean the yellow tone?

    i guess its an effect of the cheap camera i guess

    what i tried to capture is how a far away object cant give a defined shadows as eclipses do
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  30. #29  
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    No not hte yellow tome, the look of an overcast sky giving a diffuse lighting to the overall picture. Also you have not answered my other questions.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    you mean the sunlight?

    also the camera doesnt have a good focus

    but what would be the point to fake this?

    you think so difficult to get a difuse shadow from a far away object

    aslo why hardly nobody bothered to do a proper moon eclipse diagram of gradual difuse shadow?

    hey this one almost got it right?


    doesnt this look like a deception on lunar eclipses?

    moon eclipse penumbra - Buscar con Google

    e
    dit:

    oh ttheres one with a gradual shade at the end of the list

    mine
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  32. #31  
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    So, again, beyond not liking the simplified diagram what is your point?
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    that if eclipses really were made by celestial bodies they should be different something like this:

    Imagen0021.jpg

    going form 100% shadow to 0% shadow along the whole lunar surface

    i cant really answer why but it implies the wolr being a huge deception

    also the simplified diagram is key in showing the deception

    if the diagram was properly done people would realize eclipses are highly suspicious
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    is it so dificult to make a diagram with different tones of grey?
    Judging by your attempt, it seems it is
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  35. #34  
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    oh i dont know how to use photoshop, have you checked this
    :


    anyway i dont think i drew so bad the moon enduring a "real" eclipse thought the opther part is quite messy
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  36. #35  
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    Actually, your diagram is crap. The one is post #30 is correct, and that's exactly what happens. You would know that if you had ever watched a real lunar eclipse. From beginning to end.
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    that if eclipses really were made by celestial bodies they should be different something like this:
    But eclipses ARE like that. It is only the simple line drawing that isnt.
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  38. #37  
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    in this picture you can see how you cant see the edge of a far away object: then why do you see the edge in a lunar eclipse



    meteor wayne i bet the only reason you stay here its to bully the mentally handicaped, man you have a serious problem
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  39. #38  
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    I still have my doubts about the validity of the photograph you are posting.

    Also HAVE you actually seen a full eclipse of any type??
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    the picture is not photoshoped it proves that far away umbras are invisiblealso if eclispse diagrams were right people would know why theyre a lie, so they extended the lie to the diagrams
    Yes it is, and a very bad job was done at it too. The forgery is immediately obvious.
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    in this picture you can see how you cant see the edge of a far away object: then why do you see the edge in a lunar eclipse
    I don't know what you mean by "cant see the edge of a far away object".

    You can see the edge in a lunar eclipse; and it is soft/fuzzy as you would expect. Again, what is the problem?
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    oh man so you dont understand the concept of penumbra, no wonder its latin theres no modern word for it

    what would be the point to forge a distant shadow?

    the moon eclipse should be as that picture peunumbra, smooth along the whole moon size
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    [Q
    I don't know what you mean by "cant see the edge of a far away object"`s shadow ".

    You can see the edge in a lunar eclipse; and it is soft/fuzzy as you would expect. Again, what is the problem?
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    the moon eclipse should be as that picture peunumbra, smooth along the whole moon size
    I thought you were arguing that penumbra should fade from dark to light as you attempted to show in your diagram - at least, I thought that is what you had attempted to show but it is hard to know as it just looks like scribble.
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  45. #44  
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    its all moot anyways as astronomy an space exploration, both manned and unmanned have shown that the "sky" is NOT a dome.
    Last edited by Paleoichneum; January 3rd, 2012 at 06:24 AM. Reason: grammer
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    oh so youre an astronaut?

    or just gullible

    for me its the same:

    allah is great

    all scientific fact is fact though i didnt verify it
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    luxtpm, could you please explain what your idea is, in simple terms.

    You don't like the simplified line drawing of the penumbra - fair enough, but so what?

    What exactly is the problem with eclipses, as observed from the ground or space?

    What does this have to do with there being a dome or otherwise?

    Why do all the various space missions not falsify your "dome" idea? Do you think they are all made up?

    Are you interested in a serious discussion? If so, why not answer questions put to you?
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    the anguLar size of the penumbra should be 0.5º, the whole moon size

    my picture proves(is not faked pay attention to my master of photoshop by the drawn carved like letters that the penumbra border when its big enough is not visible at all for being so gradual

    therefore eclipses cant be what were told they are so i just believe better ancient knowledge

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  49. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    the anguLar size of the penumbra should be 0.5º, the whole moon size
    But your diagram in the very first post shows the penumbra is a diverging (partial) shadow that will be larger than 0.5º (because it is diverging). I am still struggling to understand your point.

    And what about all the various space missions?
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    luxtpm am i to gather that you are trying to prove the koran correct?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  51. #50  
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    Does this dome rest on a flat Earth? Or on the back of the turtle?
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    luxtpm am i to gather that you are trying to prove the koran correct?
    haha you guys are hilarious im just crazy but still you cant prove me wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    haha you guys are hilarious im just crazy but still you cant prove me wrong
    Have you heard the phrase "not even wrong".

    I still have no idea what you are are saying. Please try and explain rather than just throwing out cryptic sentences.

    Your dome claim is trivially falsified by the various space probes we have sent to planets and moons around the solar system, some of which are now outside the solar system.

    Also, we can measure the parallax of more distance objects and measure there distance directly that way. They are not all at the same distance.

    Your dislike of the standard diagram neither proves nor explains anything. Your version is incomprehensible.

    Your photograph is also incomprehensible and meaningless. It shows some shadows, including the photographer. We don't know what these shadows are of, their sizes or distances, and so we can deduce nothing from their shadows. There is a bright light around the photographer's shadow, which is odd. This may be one of the things that leads people to think it is 'shopped. But I have come to think this may be the reflection of a flash.

    But all in all: what is it all about?
    Last edited by Strange; January 4th, 2012 at 03:34 AM.
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  54. #53  
    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    luxtpm am i to gather that you are trying to prove the koran correct?
    haha you guys are hilarious im just crazy but still you cant prove me wrong
    Nope, you're getting it upside down...as the OP of a silly claim it would have been your job to prove your point, but in that you have failed miserably. No one here is under any obligation to prove anything to you, especially not since you advocate a 15th century view of the world and then try and provide forged photos and senseless arguments in your support.
    Crackpots...they really crack you up, don't they
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  55. #54  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    If they are sufficiently entertaining are they craic-pots?
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  56. #55  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    If they are sufficiently entertaining are they craic-pots?
    Yep, they most definitely are
    Time to put this non-starter of a thread to rest, I'd say...
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    well you havent answered my question where does the defined border of sahdow from an aclipse come from if far away objects give not visible edges?

    that this doesnt make you wonder proof your gullible of mainstream

    a nuclear phisicist admitted to be cluelless on this question

    later he would argue overexposition on the reason of defined edges of moon eclipses that shouldnt be
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  58. #57  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    "a nuclear phisicist admitted to be cluelless on this question"

    Do you also ask your plumber about your dental problems? Why should a Nuclear physicist know about penumbras????
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  59. #58  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well you havent answered my question where does the defined border of sahdow from an aclipse come from if far away objects give not visible edges?
    Eclipses don't have well-defined borders. Sheesh. How many more times.

    a nuclear phisicist admitted to be cluelless on this question
    Judging by your posts here, he probably had no idea what you were asking.
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    well from earth you can tell where the shadow starts and where it ends

    the penumbra makes the shadow go from 100% shadow to 0% along the whole moon size

    the size of the shadows edge its the whole moon size

    then from where does acome this:

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  61. #60  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Luxtpm, what don't you understand about "its a simplified diagram and NOT reality". you have been told multiple times that penumbras HAVE a gradual shadow, and that he diagram was simplified.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  62. #61  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Yep. That video shows that the shadow has a soft edge due to the penumbra. Just as you would expect. (Note that the moon is never fully in shadow because a lot of light is diffused by the earth's atmosphere.)

    So where is the problem?

    the penumbra makes the shadow go from 100% shadow to 0% along the whole moon size
    I'm assuming English is not your first language. Does this mean that you expect the penumbra to be the width of the moon?
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  63. #62  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well from earth you can tell where the shadow starts and where it ends

    the penumbra makes the shadow go from 100% shadow to 0% along the whole moon size

    the size of the shadows edge its the whole moon size

    then from where does acome this:

    This has already been answered - ref post # 7. But hey, it just occurs to me that you have never explained that photograph...
    And will you please stop giving YouTube references...YouTube is NOT a reliable source of scientific data !
    Look, why don't you just let the cat out of the sack - in reality you care nothing about eclipses, what you are actually advocating is the following, if I gather it correctly :

    1. The earth and moon are actually flat discs, not spherical bodies ( hence the argument about the edges of shadows )
    2. All bodies revolve around the earth, not the sun
    3. The universe as we understand it does not exist, rather the sky is a dome as illustrated by yourself in post # 47.

    So in essence what you are saying is that we are misguided, and the world actually looks like the illustration in post 47, is it not so ??
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  64. #63  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well you havent answered my question ...
    And you haven't answered any of the people who have pointed out the obvious flaws in your argument.
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  65. #64  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    the other only has two tones of grey and therefore its a deception
    "The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas"
    Donald Knuth

    You want something like this?

    shadow.jpg
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  66. #65  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    well from earth you can tell where the shadow starts and where it ends
    No you can't...an eclipse is a very gradual event. Have you not said you had been in one ? Obviously you haven't been telling the truth, otherwise you'd know better and would understand that your arguments are senseless.
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    that drawing doesnt behave gradually as the distant shadow i photographed and neither does an eclipse which i did watch, it was so defined as a half moon

    in this one the edge is defined contrary to my photograph

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  68. #67  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    in this one the edge is defined [...]
    Only to demonstrate the difference between the umbra and penumbra. Is the lack of a fully accurate diagram your only issue? What next, it needs to be 3-d?

    Stop trolling.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  69. #68  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm View Post
    that drawing doesnt behave gradually as the distant shadow i photographed and neither does an eclipse which i did watch, it was so defined as a half moon
    Like this: ? Or all the others at: lunar eclipse - Bing Images. See: lunar eclipses have soft edges so you are mistaken. As do solar eclipses (see post #7 for example).

    in this one the edge is defined contrary to my photograph
    What? The edge between umbra and penumbra? Because I spent all of 20 seconds putting it together; I really couldn't be bothered to match the inner and outer shadows perfectly; I didn't think that is what you were complaining about. It is is still far clear than yours in showing that the penumbra gives a soft shadow.
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  70. #69  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    No you can't...an eclipse is a very gradual event. Have you not said you had been in one ? Obviously you haven't been telling the truth, otherwise you'd know better and would understand that your arguments are senseless.
    In fairness, I think luxtpm's problem is that he is a rather poor observer rather than a liar.
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  71. #70  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    In fairness, I think luxtpm's problem is that he is a rather poor observer rather than a liar.
    Looking back at his posting history that seems fair. He seems unable to distinguish images and optical illusions from reality.
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  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    In fairness, I think luxtpm's problem is that he is a rather poor observer rather than a liar.
    Yes, you may well be right. I still think, though, that the issue of eclipse shadows is just one small point for him on a far wider agenda. I would guess that the illustration in post 47 pretty much summarizes his view of the world.
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