Notices
Results 1 to 8 of 8
Like Tree3Likes
  • 1 Post By Markus Hanke
  • 2 Post By Halliday

Thread: Possible solution to the mystery of why the universe began in a low entropy state?

  1. #1 Possible solution to the mystery of why the universe began in a low entropy state? 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    11
    Well, probably not, hence I've made this thread within the relative safety of the Pseudoscience forum.

    Basically, I have this idea, which I am certain is either wrong or possibly 'not even wrong'. I'm not a scientist, I am a mere physics student, an undergraduate, and my knowledge of mathematics is poor for a physics student (I somewhat blagged my way into college, if I'm honest, I think they let me in because they mistook my enthusiasm for knowledge), but anyway, as I was saying, I'm a non-scientist, and thus I cannot be the first person to think of this, and since I cannot find it anywhere on the internet, I'm forced to conclude that it must just be so wrong that no one has ever bothered to write about it. But I must satisfy my curiosity, so I would like someone here who has a decent knowledge of physics (preferably post-grad, but not vital) to explain to me where I am going wrong in my reasoning, as I must be going wrong somewhere, surely...

    Anyway, my reasoning is as follows:

    Problem

    1) The universe is an isolated system that began with the big bang, a singularity of (infinitesimal?) entropy.

    2) The universe is expanding and its entropy is increasing. We are living at a point of moderate entropy.

    3) Eventually entropy will reach maximum and the universe will be in complete thermal equilibrium. I think this point in time is referred to as heat death.

    4) Since entropy tends to increase due to probability favouring disorder, it is considered somewhat paradoxical that the isolated system known as 'the universe' should have begun with low entropy, when the probability of a high entropy beginning was orders of magnitude more... well, probable. (Yes, poor vocabulary there, sorry).

    Prelude to Solution

    1) General relativity posits that the universe is composed of spacetime, a phenomenon which for reasons I cannot fathom is frequently referred to as a fabric. Spacetime is four-dimensional, thus the three dimensions of space are equivalent to a single axis on a 2D graph with relation to time as the other axis. So, the faster one traverses space, the slower one traverses time, and vice versa.

    2) An often overlooked implication of this is that since space and time are two facets of the same thing, it follows that time is a dimension, and thus, it doesn't flow, it merely is. We perceive the flow of time due to our only remembering the past at any given point in spacetime. Our forward momentum through time is just an illusion. Time is real, but it doesn't flow.

    3) The universe is therefore eternal. It has no beginning or end, it merely is. It is a four dimensional structure within which we exist but are only able to perceive the three dimensional manifold that is curved in the fourth dimension. The fourth dimension is in fact spatial in the sense that it is already there, but we perceive it as being temporal because at any given point along our world line, we can only see a cross section of the fourth dimension, we call this the present. This, coupled with our memory of the past gives us the illusion that we are flowing through the fourth dimension, and that the fourth dimension is therefore only temporal, when in reality the fourth dimension is spatial and we are distributed across it.

    Solution

    1) The universe had no beginning, because time is a feature of the universe, it is not something within which the universe is situated. Thus, the big bang was not the beginning. Rather, the big bang should be thought of as being the furthest most point at one end of the temporal axis. Likewise, at the other end of the temporal axis, at the furthest most point, is where heat death is to be found.

    2) The universe is not expanding, because time is a feature of the universe, it is not something within which the universe is situated. Thus, just as we don't consider the universe to be expanding into anything spatially, it also follows that we should not think of the universe as expanding through something temporally.

    3) What we perceive as the expansion of the universe is in fact the increasing spatial width (I mean width as regards all three spatial dimensions, as opposed to just the one) of the universe, the further one is along the temporal axis.

    4) The universe could therefore be thought of as a four dimensional cone, with the big bang at the apex and heat death at the base. The radial dimension of the cone is equivalent to our three spatial dimensions, with the 'height' dimension from base to apex being equivalent to our temporal dimension. The increase (expansion) in spatial radius along the temporal dimension is due to the sloping of the cone.

    5) The universe did not begin with low entropy, because it has no beginning. Likewise, entropy is not increasing, because the universe is not expanding.

    6) The reason that entropy is low at the apex is because the spatial dimensions at that point are compressed so much that there is no room (or perhaps I should say, no space) for disorder, the smaller the space, the higher the probability of low entropy, as there are fewer (in this case perhaps zero) potential states of disorder.

    7) The reason that entropy is high at the base is self-explanatory. At this end of the temporal dimension, the universe is at its widest point spatially, and thus the probability of disorder is much greater.

    Conclusion

    I don't know, it's probably all a load of hot air. Please tell me where I'm going wrong with this interpretation of the universe.

    Thank you.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,096
    You need to think out of the box (ie: Not just parrot dogma)

    1. Time is a man made invention. There is no dimension of time. It is merely how we rationalise change so let's say between big bangs a particle pops in and out of existence every trillion years (as we measure time now). That means that time existed then.

    You can say that for the universe, time started with the BB, but that does not allow for how the BB itself came into being since that would have required time (as in change). There is no remotely credible explanation of how it came to be.

    2. It is an assumption that the universe is expanding. We have no actual proof that this happens as in photographs of movement which match redshifts. It is based on redshifts which is based on space expanding. Space does need to be a fabric as you say but that is not credible as there is no explanation of exactly what space is and how it can expand from quantum size to over 100 billion light years across without changing in any way. Also how there can be ever more dark energy, especially several billion years ago and how it can affect space. it is just speculation based on ideas, which is then taken as fact.

    3.See above.

    4. You are just quoting dogma here. Heat death relies on ever more dark energy so that it goes from the present 72% of the universe to almost 100% of the universe. How will this happen?

    5. Dogma is that the universe began with only energy and which literally cooled down to become matter. However energy and matter are as far apart as water and fire, and it is not credible that one can become the other. Matter can lose all energy so not be detectable by us, so e=mc2 means that that is the amount of energy matter can lose. Not total annihilation of fundamental particles. It is possible that fundamental particles without energy are what we call dark matter as there would be an awful lot of them about.

    The energy in the universe is increasingly being tied up in black holes but there is still free energy about as in 85 years ago it was said that starlight alone could account for a 3.K temperature in space. It is not impossible that there is some way of recycling black holes (ignoring the nonsense of Hawking radiation) so there will always be new stars being created.

    6. The low apex would be a black hole. Put enough matter in a small enough space and it forms black holes, which do not care about inflation or expansion, regardless of space doing whatever it does.

    7. If you introduce a small amount of gas into a large room, it will spread out to it's maximum extent. But at that point, it is still the same amount of gas and still has the same energy overall but less per cubic centimeter. DE somehow has ever more energy as it spreads out, which is not likely.

    It does not hurt to air ideas. You cannot expect to get them right first time so look at other ideas, criticism and science updates and consider modifying your ideas if there is anything useful in them.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Quagma SpeedFreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    2,787
    Cyberia, heat death does not require dark energy. Any scenario where Omega < 1 ends in heat death, it is the fate of a simple open universe.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    67
    Hello. Anyone still here, Penny, knock knock Penny, knock knock Penny?I have a solution to your entropy problem that is an original idea and it is totally against the grain of today's thinking and probably will upset people because new ideas especially when they pan out to be correct, initially upset people with their own ideas when it circumvents their ideas. Here is your answerI call it the "Ghost wave theory" and here is the entropy aspect. What is the real reason behind entropy? What is entropy? Here is what I believe it is and it is totally different than you have ended up concluding. It starts with the basic process of the universe - a transition from particle to wave. Macroparticles essentially have no wave characteristics but the smaller the mass the more wave like the energy. So energy then has dual wave particle characteristics. Now here is what is missing and it's big. Particles and particle/ wave duality both decay into 100% wave, the decay of electeomagnetic fields into monopole gravitational waves from all mass and energy creating two actions, time and space. Entropy in it's most fundamental form is the decay of all mass and energy via the monopole gravitational wave into yes, the fabric of space itself. Time is the continuous change and space is the continuous volume. Gravity is the wave synchronizing act of wavefront formation as the continuously releasing waves pull all mass and energy initially and continuing from the initial force of the big bang.( i.e. Dark energy is a function of gravitational wave release from all mass and energy(F=M x A)It is a lot to swallow, changing all of physics to show what is really going on, you may call it psudeo, I call it uncorked truth.-Michael TurnerEinstein said that mass warps time and space, I say mass and energy create time and space as a decay process.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    7,302
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Turner View Post
    Hello. Anyone still here, Penny, knock knock Penny, knock knock Penny?I have a solution to your entropy problem that is an original idea and it is totally against the grain of today's thinking and probably will upset people because new ideas especially when they pan out to be correct, initially upset people with their own ideas when it circumvents their ideas. Here is your answerI call it the "Ghost wave theory" and here is the entropy aspect. What is the real reason behind entropy? What is entropy? Here is what I believe it is and it is totally different than you have ended up concluding. It starts with the basic process of the universe - a transition from particle to wave. Macroparticles essentially have no wave characteristics but the smaller the mass the more wave like the energy. So energy then has dual wave particle characteristics. Now here is what is missing and it's big. Particles and particle/ wave duality both decay into 100% wave, the decay of electeomagnetic fields into monopole gravitational waves from all mass and energy creating two actions, time and space. Entropy in it's most fundamental form is the decay of all mass and energy via the monopole gravitational wave into yes, the fabric of space itself. Time is the continuous change and space is the continuous volume. Gravity is the wave synchronizing act of wavefront formation as the continuously releasing waves pull all mass and energy initially and continuing from the initial force of the big bang.( i.e. Dark energy is a function of gravitational wave release from all mass and energy(F=M x A)It is a lot to swallow, changing all of physics to show what is really going on, you may call it psudeo, I call it uncorked truth.-Michael TurnerEinstein said that mass warps time and space, I say mass and energy create time and space as a decay process.
    Complete word salad, and not connected to the topic of this thread. If you have a theory of your own which you want to discuss, then please open a separate thread.
    KALSTER likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    959
    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Turner View Post
    Hello. Anyone still here, Penny, knock knock Penny, knock knock Penny?I have a solution to your entropy problem that is an original idea and it is totally against the grain of today's thinking and probably will upset people because new ideas especially when they pan out to be correct, initially upset people with their own ideas when it circumvents their ideas. Here is your answerI call it the "Ghost wave theory" and here is the entropy aspect. What is the real reason behind entropy? What is entropy? Here is what I believe it is and it is totally different than you have ended up concluding. It starts with the basic process of the universe - a transition from particle to wave. Macroparticles essentially have no wave characteristics but the smaller the mass the more wave like the energy. So energy then has dual wave particle characteristics. Now here is what is missing and it's big. Particles and particle/ wave duality both decay into 100% wave, the decay of electeomagnetic fields into monopole gravitational waves from all mass and energy creating two actions, time and space. Entropy in it's most fundamental form is the decay of all mass and energy via the monopole gravitational wave into yes, the fabric of space itself. Time is the continuous change and space is the continuous volume. Gravity is the wave synchronizing act of wavefront formation as the continuously releasing waves pull all mass and energy initially and continuing from the initial force of the big bang.( i.e. Dark energy is a function of gravitational wave release from all mass and energy(F=M x A)It is a lot to swallow, changing all of physics to show what is really going on, you may call it psudeo, I call it uncorked truth.-Michael TurnerEinstein said that mass warps time and space, I say mass and energy create time and space as a decay process.
    Complete word salad, and not connected to the topic of this thread. If you have a theory of your own which you want to discuss, then please open a separate thread.
    It is clear there is a close correlation between "complete word salad" and an absence of paragraphs.
    I'm sure this has been mentioned before.
    MeteorWayne and Strange like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    喫茶店
    Posts
    16,965
    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    It is clear there is a close correlation between "complete word salad" and an absence of paragraphs.
    I'm sure this has been mentioned before.
    And, when such people create a web site, the use of garish colours, random changes in fonts and text size, flashing icons and lack of structure.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    Damn, just broke my woo-ometer looking at that!
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. It's A Mystery!!
    By quantumquestioner in forum Politics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: July 3rd, 2008, 04:26 AM
  2. It's A Mystery!!
    By quantumquestioner in forum Philosophy
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: June 23rd, 2008, 03:06 PM
  3. It's A Mystery!!
    By quantumquestioner in forum Physics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: June 22nd, 2008, 05:42 PM
  4. Physics laws, since Universe began?
    By creation in forum Astronomy & Cosmology
    Replies: 145
    Last Post: January 6th, 2008, 07:37 AM
  5. Steady State Universe
    By Mike NS in forum Astronomy & Cosmology
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: May 26th, 2007, 07:51 AM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •