Thread: tai chi

Is there any scientific evidence that explain (if any) the affects of tai chi and other things related to the idea of chi (like accupuncture)?

JA Cambece
JA Cambece Law Office

While there may be some scientific evidence, Qi (Chi) is not modeled on science. Science is a western notion. Chinese has its own metaphysics. To truly understand the relationship of Qi to nature, it is important to analyze it within the context of the metaphysics in which it was created and has meaning.

Talk to a shaolin monk.

If I get the money I am going to be one... maybe.

See, funny thing, there is a scientific explanation. A number of them, in fact. The psychological ones, which are most apparent, the biology ones, which are rarely used, and the more "paranormal" ones, that still have some scientific backing. The most popular one with me right now is that brain waves can mess with EM fields (hence, gravitational bonds between matter). I'd explain, but my hands are bothering me, so you can do the research yourself. Personally, with most cases, I find people lean towards the psychological and placebo effect reasons. But there are some that fit the latter explanation. As for pressure points, I've used them myself to cure my own neck pain and some other problems people are having. I suggest you research on what pressure points really are to understand them, as they're not MOVIE style pressure points (martial arts movies tend to = veeerrrrryyyy little reality. Remember that).

As for accupuncture, medical scientists are still out with the jury on that one. But going by Chi/Ki explanations, one could just as easily improve and fix circulatory systems just by channeling energy through the hands and into the others body to solve the issue. Thus, the needles are completely unneeded.

Personally, I don't really enjoy going completely along with old philosophies and beliefs about it. I prefer science and explanations as opposed to it just being, as such, I don't suggest you go to a Shaolin monk or anything, as monks tend to focus on the spiritual aspects, not scientific. At least as far as I know. Also, if the brain wave and EM field/matter theory is correct, then ancient people WERE correct in saying that it binds the universe together. Since, technically, being a theory of gravity, it does! Hahahaha

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

As for pressure points, I've used them myself to cure my own neck pain and some other problems people are having. I suggest you research on what pressure points really are to understand them, as they're not MOVIE style pressure points (martial arts movies tend to = veeerrrrryyyy little reality. Remember that).

I do not know much about how they are portrayed in the movies, but the notion that I have sometimes seen in the movies that martial artists are also commonly practitioners of medicine is valid. They use the same principles.

As for accupuncture, medical scientists are still out with the jury on that one. But going by Chi/Ki explanations,

Ki is a Japanese spelling. Chi is an English spelling. Qi is a Chinese spelling.

one could just as easily improve and fix circulatory systems just by channeling energy through the hands and into the others body to solve the issue. Thus, the needles are completely unneeded.

Yes. I think that acupuncture, which I do, is Qi manipulation for those with limited skill. I have witnessed on many occasions practitioners of Qi Gong achieve great effect without needles.

I don't suggest you go to a Shaolin monk

I suspect that he was alluding to the fact that the Shaolin temple, which I have visited, is becoming a popular place for westerners to study martial arts.

Also, if the brain wave and EM field/matter theory is correct, then ancient people WERE correct in saying that it binds the universe together. Since, technically, being a theory of gravity, it does! Hahahaha

Excellent observation.

I know the difference between the spelling of Chi/Qi, but I'm not Chinese, so for me it doesn't matter too much unless you wish to be technical. I'm writing to add a final note: There are stories floating around on the internet, and studies made by medical people, about strange "effects" of Tai Chi. One, I recall, being someone regrowing a section of bone in his leg (although this could possibly have an alternative explanation). Unfortunately I have no links, and I'm too lazy to look them up, but you can do so yourself instead of trusting my word on it. Haha

EDIT: Also, Chinese/Japanese concepts vary. Chi tends to be more medative, and Ki tends to be more aggressive (at least from what I've read/heard so far). There are differences in spelling for a reason, hence why I didn't limit it to one. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

EDIT: Also, Chinese/Japanese concepts vary.

Correct.

Chi tends to be more medative, and Ki tends to be more aggressive (at least from what I've read/heard so far).

This does not seem to be a very realistic differentiation to me.

There are differences in spelling for a reason, hence why I didn't limit it to one. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, there is a reason. Chinese and Japanese are very different languages, and so naturally pronounce the words differently. As well, as you suggested, these cultures are very different, and so have a somewhat different understanding of the nature of Qi/Ki.

Well, the difference WAS a bit clear cut, but try to look at it realistically as opposed to my crappy explanation. In Japanese culture especially, Ki is shown to be a tool used for fighting rather than something medative and restful. I'm mostly referring to animation, but it's also present in real-life japanese culture. I do believe this is also present in japanese fighting styles as well, but I have no evidence for that claim, but I'll try to hunt up some links tomorrow.

Oh ya sorry, you were looking for "scientific" evidence. The reason I suggested shaolin is because they could give you observable evidence. Whether it is explainable or not.

I wouldn't discredit movies so fast, although there definitely are some that over do it. I have been hit, not very hard, in a spot on my wrist and could not move my hand for an hour. Although I much prefer the idea of using pressure points for healing.

There have been experiments to try to show how a pressure point is diferent from the rest of the body. Many of which are successful. Also there is evidence that through energy (qi) work certain hormones are released and blood vessels can dilate or contract etc. Whether it is chi or some other force, the stuff does work.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

In Japanese culture especially, Ki is shown to be a tool used for fighting rather than something medative and restful.

This is not at all true. The word Ki permeates the Japanese language, and has no more use in fighting than in anything else. That being said, its major prevalence means that it does have a lot of significance in fighting, as well as in everything else, such as meditation.

Haven't heard any mention of the biologically defined 'nervous system' in this discussion. There's a lot of electro-chemical stimulation of the nervous system tributaries - brachiating into the rest of the body from the brain and spine - going on with acupressure and acupuncture; there are details on this presently unknown to me. Western science was largely persuaded to accept acupressure and acupuncture due to it's relationship with, influence on and control of the nervous system.

One of the generalized meanings of 'Qi' is energy distributed throughout the nervous system (network) proper, from neurological origins; specifically, the brain (importantly stimulated by oxygen and breathing techniques. In some translations 'Chi' refers to breath and/or cerebro-spinal fluid) - apparently having main sub stations at junctures accomodating stimulation of various parts of the entire system, especially via the bottoms of the feet and hands, many locations on the ear and tongue. The principles of Asian medicine and martial arts frequently dovetail on these issues- martial arts of itself is often about healing as well as impacting the nervous system to disable or handicap an adversary.

Anesthesia is frequently effected without drugs, via the application of acupressure and acupuncture. There are dramatic proofs of this, including open heart surgery, where the patients remain conscious but suffer no pain (It's found to work to various degrees on different individuals.). After decades of rejection, the AMA finally capitulated with these facts, resulting in the popular applications of Eastern medicine in Western Schools.
Good thread. (Se se. - Thank you.)

Does anyone have any links to sites that have clips or mentions of "observable evidence"?

Originally Posted by That Rascal Puff

One of the generalized meanings of 'Qi' is energy distributed throughout the nervous system (network) proper,

I think that you will not find a Chinese medical book on Qi that mentions Qi in the context of the nervous system.

In some translations 'Chi' refers to breath

There are many types of Qi. Breath is certainly one of them.

I was recently informed of a TV show on the BBC called Mind, Body and Kick Ass Moves. Look it up, it has lots of great stuff.

I always assumed that accupuncture works by disrupting the nervous system. I don't know very much about it i'm afraid, but i would assume that the magnetic field of a metal needle (if not it's physical presence) would disrupt or propagate nervous signals. This would certainly explain the proven ability of accupuncture to ease pain.
I don't know whether any studies have been done into this. I can't remember whether it's an idea that i came up with, or one that i saw somewhere else.

Well, I've not fully found an explanation for things such as Chi. Since apparently it's not JUST electromagnetism, but it's certainly a fairly good part of it. It doesn't only interact with the nerve system, since certain points aren't connecting with specific nerves as much as energy lines. It also doesn't explain those who do it *without* needles and are just as successful.

It is called accupressure without needles. I do a little accupressure but, I am not trained and have little chi experiance so I cannot say with complete confidence that it works. Although, I will not deny that it does. The needles allow more precision and you can alos heat or cool a needle while it is in the person. Maybe more to it that I don't know also.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Well, I've not fully found an explanation for things such as Chi.

That's because there are none. There simply is no evidence that any "chi" exists. There is ample evidence that "chi" is simply a modern pseudoscience based on an ancient assumption.

People of antiquity observed that life had "energy," which it certainly does: energy to move muscles; photosynthesize; transmit sensory input to the brain; instructions from the brain; etc. But these are all "energies" that can be quantified and measured. None of them behave in the mystical manner ascribed to "chi" and none are a part of "meridians."

"Chi" is bunk.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html

http://www.csicop.org/si/9607/china.html

Interesting articles, I wish that there were more controlled tests done to accurately gauge chi related things.

It's proven that EM fields can interact with brainwaves and visa versa, and this explains some parts of it. However, to see the full extent it would probably be what binds everything together. I'd throw in my personal expeirience but that never works, and any links on the subject are rather easily debunked (hence why I dislike them).

Energy can exist in an abundance of forms, this is pretty much proven. In my view, the many beliefs can center around this physical fact. Different types of energy tends to come from different types of mattar and all. However those articles are pretty much correct, and I fully agree with them. For example

>>
Having surveyed the evidence so far, there seems to be little evidence of substance that supports the existence of Chi
<<

Exactly right, and the evidence so far appears to suck. However, I do believe nobody in the manistream is grasping chi as something already there. Many view it as spiritual or non-physical, and here they view it as an outside substace that isn't part of a large majority of things already. Electromagnetism or what binds atoms together, for instance. Is there an issue with matter interacting with other types of matter when they are all made of similar particles and bound with similar energy?

In my opinion the energy line system and such is all too brief. Not only are ancient systems ANCIENT but the mainstream is failing to expand those views (especially in online communities I have seen). Also, those claiming minor miracles and such are most likely fakes. Tell me, if you had any "special" ability, would you want all that attention? I should say not. Attention seekers should be labled fakes rather instantly.

overall, this is failing to adress how using no needles works, how the chakra system is accurately placed near (or right on) major organs when it was developed so long ago. One could argue they just chopped up a lot of bodies, but why is there no documentation for it? Well, that could go on for a while, so skip it.

I'd also like to throw out there how the acupressure system mas also used long BEFORE onyone knew anything about the scientific explanation used in the article. Also to a very high precision rate, though I should go hunt down links to back it up more. Then I remember that you can use google as well. I'm lazy, and I also don't have that much time left to do so.

id love to join and prove chi wrong. but i dont know what chi is. so could someone give me a accurate description of what chi is?

Originally Posted by Zelos

id love to join and prove chi wrong. but i dont know what chi is. so could someone give me a accurate description of what chi is?

as defined in the book "xingyiquan theory, applications, fighting tactics & spirit" (liang, shou-yu & dr. yang, jwing-ming) 'universal energy, including heat, light & electromagnetic energy. a narrower definition of i refers to the energy circulating in human or animal bodies.'

for more information on chi/qi or other chinese martial arts/medicines, i reccomend anything by dr yang jwing-ming. you can visit his website at www.ymaa.com

Originally Posted by rattler420

Originally Posted by Zelos

id love to join and prove chi wrong. but i dont know what chi is. so could someone give me a accurate description of what chi is?

as defined in the book "xingyiquan theory, applications, fighting tactics & spirit" (liang, shou-yu & dr. yang, jwing-ming) 'universal energy, including heat, light & electromagnetic energy. a narrower definition of i refers to the energy circulating in human or animal bodies.'

for more information on chi/qi or other chinese martial arts/medicines, i reccomend anything by dr yang jwing-ming. you can visit his website at www.ymaa.com

A more proper definition would be spiritual energy. Since it currently can't be "proven" beyond any doubt that it's physical, a more proper definition for the time being is spiritual energy. One can argue that massive amounts of "spiritual energy" can influence the physical world, such as ones own body, yet others would prefer to leave it 100% spiritual. So who knows.

Relax muscle and use muscle just like yoga!