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Thread: Do aliens exist

  1. #1 Do aliens exist 
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    Do aliens exist??
    does the Goverment work with them and tthere technologies?
    is it fact or false??


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  3. #2  
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    read my thread on " should we contact aliens? " u'll understand ..........


    "Universe is not as weird as you think it is weirder than you can ever,ever think"- Ophiolite(My Grandpa)
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Pratt View Post
    Do aliens exist??
    does the Goverment work with them and tthere technologies?
    is it fact or false??
    Yes. See these United States Government web sites:

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  5. #4  
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    Of course aliens exist. Aside from the obvious statistical argument, the main chemical building blocks of life (hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, phosphorous, nitrogen) are some of the most abundant elements in the universe. Frankly, in the presence of liquid water, life almost seems like a chemical inevitability given enough time.
    Earth is not special. There are countless other planets just like it, and if life could start here, it could start there too. That's just taking into account life as we know it; there could be other forms of life we don't know about!

    Truly, there could be no subject more exciting to a biologist than that of extraterrestrial life.

    Also, I doubt any civilization capable of interstellar travel would associate themselves with a stupid, primitive animal like humans. They'd be intelligent to see how unbearably dumb humans are, and if given advanced technology, we'd surely kill ourselves and everything on this planet, and as such they would never contact us until we are deemed ready. Which, I think, will be when we are also capable of interstellar travel.
    "Science is more than a body of knowledge; it's a way of thinking. A way of skeptically interrogating the universe." - Carl Sagan
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beard Baron View Post
    Also, I doubt any civilization capable of interstellar travel would associate themselves with a stupid, primitive animal like humans.
    I'm sure everyone has heard it before, but the punchline is worth waiting for, Eric Idle's Galaxy Song.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Pratt View Post
    Do aliens exist??
    Almost certainly, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Pratt View Post
    does the Goverment work with them and tthere technologies?
    Almost certainly, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Pratt View Post
    is it fact or false??
    One part each.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beard Baron View Post
    Also, I doubt any civilization capable of interstellar travel would associate themselves with a stupid, primitive animal like humans. They'd be intelligent to see how unbearably dumb humans are, and if given advanced technology, we'd surely kill ourselves and everything on this planet, and as such they would never contact us until we are deemed ready. Which, I think, will be when we are also capable of interstellar travel.
    I've noticed this is a very common sentiment on this forum. I wonder if it's because the scientific community tends to have an above average IQ, and so that colors how it experience contact with its own species?

    It would be really funny if an advanced alien species were to show up, and it turns out that our species is the smart one. They just evolved first, and had thousands and thousands of years to figure out how to do stuff. Or maybe they're intelligent, but it's only due to cybernetic implants that enhance their own brains' potentials by grafting them into supercomputers? So, when they really want to think hard about something, they plug their head into the ship's on board computer with a USB cable and get a temporary IQ boost.
    If you wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight,.... then what is the use in bringing a gun to a nuclear war?
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  9. #8  
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    I wouldn't say almost certainly yes. Frankly, it is impossible to say wether they exist or not until irrefutable proof is found. Before then, it is all speculation.
    Who knows, just like some people rely on religion for significance, maybe people rely on the hope of extraterrestrial beings to make our existence in this universe less lonely?

    I would like to say yes, but I dislike making statements on anything without at least reasonable source of proof.

    As for government conspiracies, that is tosh.
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  10. #9  
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    You have to think of it this way, were either the first life in the universe, the last or somewhere in the middle.

    As we exist theres every chance theres other life in the universe, so were probably somewhere in the middle, though as so far we can only give fact to ourselves.
    Last edited by griffithsuk; August 4th, 2011 at 09:30 AM.
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  11. #10  
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    Another possibility is that all evolution sequences end in an atomic winter. In that case intelligent life has ~10,000 years to figure itself out after the first writing technology appears. After their time limit is up, and nuclear war ensues, they wipe themselves out regardless of any space technologies, because they find ways to blow up every planet that has occupants.

    If that's true, then at any given time, a life form like ours has a very high % chance of being alone in its bazillion parsecs worth of space territory because all of its potential peers either haven't evolved yet, or didn't last long enough.
    If you wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight,.... then what is the use in bringing a gun to a nuclear war?
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  12. #11  
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    Why is it more plausible that we are alone in the near infinite universe then there being other intelligent life out there ?
    And as for all evolution sequences ending up in atomic winter? Consider this: the vast difference between a rat and a fish here on earth should be an indication of how different other life forms might be from us.

    Take a look at the Mundruku, or Piraha, to get an idea of how diverse culture can be on one planet let alone spanning lightyears and eons of evolution.
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  13. #12  
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    But the requirements on this planet were met for life. That is why diversification was possible. Don't confuse cultural diversity with evolutionary diversity.

    Now, there very well may be other planets out there that meet the requirements for life. Chances are there are many of them.
    That does not mean that (a) life evolved on that planet, (b) life survived on that planet or (c) that if it did survive, it is intelligent life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teb View Post
    Consider this: the vast difference between a rat and a fish here on earth should be an indication of how different other life forms might be from us.
    There is not a vast difference between a rat and a fish. They are damn near identical, as are gladioli. Clearly you need to think more deply about what alien actually means.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Teb View Post
    Consider this: the vast difference between a rat and a fish here on earth should be an indication of how different other life forms might be from us.
    There is not a vast difference between a rat and a fish. They are damn near identical, as are gladioli.
    True, I often wake up and think I am a tulip.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  16. #15  
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    An easy mistake to make. Both turtle and tulip begin with a tu. (excuse me being familiar.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Teb View Post
    Consider this: the vast difference between a rat and a fish here on earth should be an indication of how different other life forms might be from us.
    There is not a vast difference between a rat and a fish. They are damn near identical, as are gladioli.
    True, I often wake up and think I am a tulip.
    You only need to start worrying when you wake up and think you're a cockroach.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Teb View Post
    Consider this: the vast difference between a rat and a fish here on earth should be an indication of how different other life forms might be from us.
    There is not a vast difference between a rat and a fish. They are damn near identical, as are gladioli.
    True, I often wake up and think I am a tulip.
    You only need to start worrying when you wake up and think you're a cockroach.
    I am a cockroach. I am not a tulip.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    An easy mistake to make. Both turtle and tulip begin with a tu. (excuse me being familiar.)
    Existential dyslexia is a terrible affliction.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Pratt View Post
    Do aliens exist??
    does the Goverment work with them and tthere technologies?
    is it fact or false??
    I would say that all the evidence points to an emphatic NO.
    Compared to the age of the universe, we have existed for hardly no time at all and there are already unmistakeable biological and electro magnetic signs of our presence on [ and beyond ] our planet. We have bits of hardware all over the solar system [ and beyond ] - if the universe contained even a fraction of the civilizations predicted by the Drake equation we would certainly have some evidence of them by now.

    I am am an enthusiastic exponent of the theory that we may well be the first [ and or ONLY ] sentient beings on the block. I've found this to be a difficult standpoint as people are genuinely 'disturbed' by this proposal.

    Recommeded reading - Rare Earth - this book lays out the tenuous thread of completely random events that have led to the appearance of life on this planet. If the Earth had not been whacked by the asteriod 65 million years ago,early mammals would still be hiding from dinosaurs and there would be no primates and therefore no hominids.

    It amazing that we are here at all - I'm of the opinion that to expect that other alien civilisations exist demonstrates a lack of understanding of how we got here
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Pratt View Post
    Do aliens exist??
    does the Goverment work with them and tthere technologies?
    is it fact or false??
    Until we actually have irrefutable evidence we can't say for certain that 'aliens' exist but based on the sheer size of the universe I think it's short-sighted arrogance to assume we are the only example of intelligent sentient beings. This naturally is open to debate, one that won't ever be resolved by the nay-sayers and may not be resolved by those that share my POV.

    I think the idea that our or any other government has some kind of exclusive arrangement with ETI is sci-fi and woo fodder. It presumes that ETI would require such an arrangement, be subservient to the 'cover-up,' and bestows an X-Files omnipotence on the part of the PTB to make any cover-up work...we're talking "control" that would have to manage everyone from astronomers, meteorologists, down to me and you with our nifty backyard telescopes. That's a lot of Men In Black!
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Pratt View Post
    Do aliens exist??
    does the Goverment work with them and tthere technologies?
    is it fact or false??
    Until we actually have irrefutable evidence we can't say for certain that 'aliens' exist but based on the sheer size of the universe I think it's short-sighted arrogance to assume we are the only example of intelligent sentient beings.
    My grasp of logical fallacies is poor, but I believe you have created a false dichotomy by erecting a strawman. Here are some points to consider:

    The proposition that aliens are unlikely to exist is neither shortsighted, arrogant, nor an assumption.

    To reaonably offer such a proposition requires consideration of observations, hypotheses and theories from cosmology, astrophysics, planetology, geology, geochemistry, biology, genetics, biocehmistry and a host of other disciplines. such extensive and intensive considerations cannot properly be called shortsighted.

    To recognise that we may be the only intelligent lifeform in the universe should be, and for contemplative persons is, a uniqeuly humbling experience carrying with it an alomst inconceivable responsibility.

    No assumptions that cannot be reasonably verified through observation are necessary to arrive at this proposition.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Pratt View Post
    Do aliens exist??
    does the Goverment work with them and tthere technologies?
    is it fact or false??
    Until we actually have irrefutable evidence we can't say for certain that 'aliens' exist but based on the sheer size of the universe I think it's short-sighted arrogance to assume we are the only example of intelligent sentient beings.
    My grasp of logical fallacies is poor, but I believe you have created a false dichotomy by erecting a strawman. Here are some points to consider:

    The proposition that aliens are unlikely to exist is neither shortsighted, arrogant, nor an assumption.

    To reaonably offer such a proposition requires consideration of observations, hypotheses and theories from cosmology, astrophysics, planetology, geology, geochemistry, biology, genetics, biocehmistry and a host of other disciplines. such extensive and intensive considerations cannot properly be called shortsighted.

    To recognise that we may be the only intelligent lifeform in the universe should be, and for contemplative persons is, a uniqeuly humbling experience carrying with it an alomst inconceivable responsibility.

    No assumptions that cannot be reasonably verified through observation are necessary to arrive at this proposition.
    Strawman? Nah. Opinion? Yep. The proposition that we are 'alone' can not ever be established. You understand that don't you?

    I agree that consideration of "observations, hypotheses and theories from cosmology, astrophysics, planetology, geology, geochemistry, biology, genetics, biochemistry and a host of other disciplines. such extensive and intensive considerations cannot properly be called shortsighted" but it's not the methodology that's shortsighted or arrogant here, it's the reliance on insufficient data to come to a conclusion. The best answer is we don't know. The worst answer is we do.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beard Baron View Post
    Of course aliens exist. Aside from the obvious statistical argument, the main chemical building blocks of life (hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, phosphorous, nitrogen) are some of the most abundant elements in the universe. Frankly, in the presence of liquid water, life almost seems like a chemical inevitability given enough time.
    Earth is not special. There are countless other planets just like it, and if life could start here, it could start there too. That's just taking into account life as we know it; there could be other forms of life we don't know about!

    Truly, there could be no subject more exciting to a biologist than that of extraterrestrial life.

    Also, I doubt any civilization capable of interstellar travel would associate themselves with a stupid, primitive animal like humans. They'd be intelligent to see how unbearably dumb humans are, and if given advanced technology, we'd surely kill ourselves and everything on this planet, and as such they would never contact us until we are deemed ready. Which, I think, will be when we are also capable of interstellar travel.
    Hi Baron.
    Yes life is a chemical inevitability, point is how many 'earth like' planets could have evolved intelligent
    life that would have the means to develop technology as we know it.
    Our technology is based on fossil fuels, produced on our planet by the vast forests over millenia.
    Is it too far fetched to assume that other 'earth like' planets would not have the same scenario?
    But still have intelligent life?
    The Greeks worked out almost everthing, but communication on the scale we are about
    they knew nothing of.
    As an aside, Baron, is SETI looking in the wrong direction. If there are UFOs out there, how
    do they comunicate with each other? Radio, as we know it, tells us nothing.
    But that may mean they have a means of communication we are not aware of as yet
    nokton
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post

    I think the idea that our or any other government has some kind of exclusive arrangement with ETI is sci-fi and woo fodder. It presumes that ETI would require such an arrangement, be subservient to the 'cover-up,' and bestows an X-Files omnipotence on the part of the PTB to make any cover-up work...we're talking "control" that would have to manage everyone from astronomers, meteorologists, down to me and you with our nifty backyard telescopes. That's a lot of Men In Black!
    Or maybe we've got it backwards. Maybe the aliens are the ones demanding the cover-up, and our governments are the ones subservient to it. Maybe the Men in Black aren't humans. You just have to ask yourself: under what conditions would an advanced alien culture find contact with us to be beneficial for them?

    A few possibilities:

    1) - Just as humans learn the most about lions in Africa when the lions don't know we're watching, maybe aliens might find our behavior to be the most interesting when we don't know.

    2) - Just as it didn't take the Russians very long to figure out how to build the nuclear bomb once they knew the USA had one, maybe aliens don't like the idea of humans learning their technology. We're liable to go to their planet and start blowing things up if we get it into our heads that we're being treated as inferiors - which is probably how they look at us.

    3) - Expanding on 2, just look at the things Muslim extremists do to first world countries like the USA. Last thing they need is a bunch of zealots going over there and telling them to worship Allah or Jesus Christ rather than their god "Ick Bick Zing", or "!@#;d boidrk" (or whatever other silly name they might have for their man in the sky).

    4) - Resource harvesting: easier to do against a society of unwitting capitalists, rather than slaves. Maybe human stock markets are very simple to predict for them, or they patent a new technology every now and again. (Probably most patent attorneys aren't going to ask why their client is so secretive, or has tentacles hanging out of his/her/its coat, so long as he/she/it pays his/her/its bills on time, and if they do ask they can't tell anyway, due to client attorney privilege.)


    In all these cases, it would be in their best interests to keep their presence covered up. Probably in our best interests too (except option #4)
    If you wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight,.... then what is the use in bringing a gun to a nuclear war?
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post

    I think the idea that our or any other government has some kind of exclusive arrangement with ETI is sci-fi and woo fodder. It presumes that ETI would require such an arrangement, be subservient to the 'cover-up,' and bestows an X-Files omnipotence on the part of the PTB to make any cover-up work...we're talking "control" that would have to manage everyone from astronomers, meteorologists, down to me and you with our nifty backyard telescopes. That's a lot of Men In Black!
    Or maybe we've got it backwards. Maybe the aliens are the ones demanding the cover-up, and our governments are the ones subservient to it. Maybe the Men in Black aren't humans. You just have to ask yourself: under what conditions would an advanced alien culture find contact with us to be beneficial for them?

    A few possibilities:

    1) - Just as humans learn the most about lions in Africa when the lions don't know we're watching, maybe aliens might find our behavior to be the most interesting when we don't know.

    2) - Just as it didn't take the Russians very long to figure out how to build the nuclear bomb once they knew the USA had one, maybe aliens don't like the idea of humans learning their technology. We're liable to go to their planet and start blowing things up if we get it into our heads that we're being treated as inferiors - which is probably how they look at us.

    3) - Expanding on 2, just look at the things Muslim extremists do to first world countries like the USA. Last thing they need is a bunch of zealots going over there and telling them to worship Allah or Jesus Christ rather than their god "Ick Bick Zing", or "!@#;d boidrk" (or whatever other silly name they might have for their man in the sky).

    4) - Resource harvesting: easier to do against a society of unwitting capitalists, rather than slaves. Maybe human stock markets are very simple to predict for them, or they patent a new technology every now and again. (Probably most patent attorneys aren't going to ask why their client is so secretive, or has tentacles hanging out of his/her/its coat, so long as he/she/it pays his/her/its bills on time, and if they do ask they can't tell anyway, due to client attorney privilege.)


    In all these cases, it would be in their best interests to keep their presence covered up. Probably in our best interests too (except option #4)
    But if they are smart/savvy enough to get here from there why do they have to play the game at all? They can study us and even experiment with us (introducing technology and seeing what happens for instance) without the need to rub elbows with or dictate to our ruling elite. To do so would undermine the premise behind your #1.

    Regarding #2, maybe they shouldn't crash all the time. You have to admit that would go a long way toward them keeping their technology out of the hands of us pesky Earthers, no?

    #3 - Kinda reinforces why they shouldn't hobnob with the PTBs here.

    #4 - I often read that ET comes here like a moth to a flame because we and/or our planet is something special but when it comes to our natural resources they can be found elsewhere. Now let's, for the sake of argument, say we had something found nowhere else or, at the very least, closer to them than the next oasis -- there's still no need to engage in the kind of subterfuge that involves things like cover-ups, MIB, and whatnot. As far as we go, are we really worth ETI coming here just so they can dabble in our stock markets? As far as interjecting advanced technology in small bits to see what happens, I can buy that in the context of your #1 I suppose. However, working with Uncle Sam or (name your country) isn't required nor is it wise. As I said earlier, it waters down the rationale behind your #1. Notice a common theme here?
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  27. #26  
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    [QUOTE=Steve H;280774]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    Strawman? Nah.
    Well, actually, yes, you have set up a strawman. No serious student of exobiology would maintain that there is no possibility of intelligent aliens existing. However, it is this position that you are condemning as being short sighted and arrogant. You are attacking a position that is not held by any serious thinkers." (Any is an absolute - I suspect there may be one or two thoughful individuals who have constructed a rationale for us being the sole repository of intelligence in the universe.)
    You ask
    The proposition that we are 'alone' can not ever be established. You understand that don't you?
    It should be evident from my use of the phrases "the proposition that aliens are unlikey to exist" and "we may be the only intelligent lifeform" that I wholly understand the impossibility of proving a negative.

    I fully concur that extrapolating from a sample size of one is unscientific. That, however, was not the thought expressed in your original post.
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    I think you need to return your book of logical fallacies and ask for your money back Ophiolite. By taking an opinion that's directed at those who think we are alone or find it highly likely we are alone and trying to broad-brush it outside the context it was meant, you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of.

    Now are you done derailing this thread with your asinine nits?
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post
    I think you need to return your book of logical fallacies and ask for your money back Ophiolite. By taking an opinion that's directed at those who think we are alone or find it highly likely we are alone and trying to broad-brush it outside the context it was meant, you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of.

    Now are you done derailing this thread with your asinine nits?
    I would ask you to keep a civil tongue in your head.

    1. I stated at the outset that "My grasp of logical fallacies is poor", so confirming the point was unnecessary.
    2. My central point is that practically no one in their right mind makes the assertion you have directed your opinion towards. That is assuredly a strawman. So I ask you , why condemn a viewpoint that practically no right thinking person holds? Why?
    3. If it is your contention that this is a reasonably common viewpoint you could simply have demonstrated that and thereby demonstrated the fallacy of my premise. Job done. That you have resorted instead to what approaches an ad hominem suggests you are unable to do so.

    Now, if you wish to reply could you do so without the angst please.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post
    By taking an opinion that's directed at those who think we are alone or find it highly likely we are alone and trying to broad-brush it outside the context it was meant, you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of.
    What proportion of the relevant experts do you suppose hold such views? I'd be surprised if there were that many.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    I would ask you to keep a civil tongue in your head.
    Ha! This is definitely a kettle/pot situation here. Why don't you resort to one of your thinly disguised ad hom attacks? If that doesn't work then remove the disguise. I understand that, according to rules you stated in another thread, ad hom attacks are OK as long as they are done "calmly".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    I would ask you to keep a civil tongue in your head.
    I'll make a deal with you. Shuck the nit-picking and actually stick to the thread topic and you'll no longer feel compelled to post about my "tongue."

    1. I stated at the outset that "My grasp of logical fallacies is poor", so confirming the point was unnecessary.
    Yet you did it anyway.

    2. My central point is that practically no one in their right mind makes the assertion you have directed your opinion towards. That is assuredly a strawman. So I ask you , why condemn a viewpoint that practically no right thinking person holds? Why?
    Your central point is a strawman and makes you come across as a nit-picking smartass. My opinion regarding those that I feel are short-sighted and arrogant applies to those that reject or are highly against the concept of 'aliens' existing elsewhere. It doesn't matter what percentage of folks share that POV and my descriptors obviously weren't directed at those you refer to as "in their right mind." So why bring it up? If this thread was about ghosts and I directed my opinion towards those that believe in them (whether they frequented this forum or not) would you feel compelled to erect a similar strawman?

    3. If it is your contention that this is a reasonably common viewpoint you could simply have demonstrated that and thereby demonstrated the fallacy of my premise. Job done. That you have resorted instead to what approaches an ad hominem suggests you are unable to do so.
    Your "premise," if that's what you choose to call your BS, is based on a figment of your imagination. I never said a no-ET POV was "common" or "reasonably common" to use your term.

    Now, if you wish to reply could you do so without the angst please.
    Angst? Heh, you misjudge me sir. Lack of respect is more like it. You'll get the respect you give.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post
    By taking an opinion that's directed at those who think we are alone or find it highly likely we are alone and trying to broad-brush it outside the context it was meant, you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of.
    What proportion of the relevant experts do you suppose hold such views? I'd be surprised if there were that many.
    So would I but that wasn't my point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post
    . I never said a no-ET POV was "common" or "reasonably common" to use your term.

    Now, if you wish to reply could you do so without the angst please.
    Angst? Heh, you misjudge me sir. Lack of respect is more like it. You'll get the respect you give.
    Interesting. I have a full quota of respect for you and am merely disappointed you are being so stubborn. That is no reason for me to disrespect you. May I ask if your disrespect for me is based on nothing more than me having the temerity to disagree with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by puma man
    Ha! This is definitely a kettle/pot situation here. Why don't you resort to one of your thinly disguised ad hom attacks? If that doesn't work then remove the disguise. I understand that, according to rules you stated in another thread, ad hom attacks are OK as long as they are done "calmly".
    You will recall that I argue for direct (not thinly veiled) ad hominem attacks against persistent offenders against the scientific method and the willfully ignorant. It is not to be applied to someone simply because you happen to disagree with them. Try to pay more attention.
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    If someone thinks there are no aliens, it doesn't make them short sighted or arrogant. It just means that their wild ass guess is different than your wild ass guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    If someone thinks there are no aliens, it doesn't make them short sighted or arrogant. It just means that their wild ass guess is different than your wild ass guess.
    I think i have to differ thereHarold. As you rightly point out assessing the existence of aliens is, based on a sample size of one, nothing more nor less than a wild assed guess. Therefore the only correct position to take is that we do not kmow. curiously this appears to be the position adopted by SteveH. What I attempted to point out is that he was attacking a very small minority position as if it were significant to the argument. It isn't. We don't know if we are the only life in the universe, or if even the solar system is teeming with life. (I'd call it teaming if Mars, Europa and Titan all turned out to have extant lifeforms.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    I think i have to differ thereHarold. As you rightly point out assessing the existence of aliens is, based on a sample size of one, nothing more nor less than a wild assed guess.
    I don't agree it is a (idiotic American expression) "wild assed guess".
    Humans have a reasonable knowledge of only one body (the Earth) in the Universe.
    We are the dominant species, because of our intelligence, and while our existence does not clinch any arguments about the existence of aliens it surely is a major piece of evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    We don't know if we are the only life in the universe, or if even the solar system is teeming with life. (I'd call it teaming if Mars, Europa and Titan all turned out to have extant lifeforms.)
    I wouldn't! On the grander scale, our solar system is little more likely to be a representative sample than our planet is. It wouldn't be too surprising if life in all three places were descendant from the same abiogenesis event. Finding out that they weren't would make things more interesting though. The real test will be finding some sign of biological processes from an exoplanet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H View Post
    Until we actually have irrefutable evidence we can't say for certain that 'aliens' exist but based on the sheer size of the universe I think it's short-sighted arrogance to assume we are the only example of intelligent sentient beings. This naturally is open to debate, one that won't ever be resolved by the nay-sayers and may not be resolved by those that share my POV.
    There is nothing particularly wrong with the above statement and I agree with it, as it stands. We cannot say for certain that ETs exist, but based on the sheer size of the universe it would be naive to assume we are the only intelligent beings in the universe.

    There is however the question as to whether anyone actually is so naive that they assume we are the only example of intelligent life in the universe. It would be a weak position to take, logically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iainmacb View Post

    As for government conspiracies, that is tosh.
    Yes, "tosh", the notion that for example, United States government could build nuclear explosives, in process building entire secret cities and industries, absolute "tosh"- yet this particular "tosh" happened. Most effective conspiracies are not suspected, this is what makes them effective. In case of popular mythology RE extrasolar aliens, Prince sees no reason why such beings should bother to conceal their existence.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding go out to meet it.- Thucydides
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Teb View Post
    Consider this: the vast difference between a rat and a fish here on earth should be an indication of how different other life forms might be from us.
    There is not a vast difference between a rat and a fish. They are damn near identical, as are gladioli. Clearly you need to think more deply about what alien actually means.
    True, once Prince was working as waiter at Red Lobster and served customer rat instead of fish on plate. Coincidentally demoted to dishwasher before health department inspection due, but seriously, what is fish but non-mammalian cold-blooded rat without fur or limbs or eyelids, dressed up in scales? Way Prince saw things, customer got more for his money...
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding go out to meet it.- Thucydides
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    Are there any detected,iron core (or 'exotic' equivalent) planets that can deflect solar radiation?
    Although i would never discount 'alien' life being able to evolve with solar radiation
    Last edited by brane wave; August 28th, 2011 at 08:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brane wave View Post
    Are there any detected,iron core (or 'exotic' equivalent) planets that can deflect solar radiation?
    Although i would never discount 'alien' life being able to evolve with solar radiation
    How do you think life evolved on Earth?
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    Are aliens real?,well many believe they are,and many believe they are not.I think they are and this is my reasoning.

    Do i believe we are the only life forms in the galaxy? No i do not.It is highly reasonable that we are not,since this galaxy is HUGE.We think that,since we are the domonent species,then it sounds irrational that other life forms exist.Those people are wrong in my opinion.Now back in ancient Egypt,there were ancient cave pictures that showed flying chariots and (extraterrestrial beings) that came down from the sky.And other stories of the government getting their technological intelligence from aliens.These stories can be viewed either way,but the fact is,there are most likely other forms of life out there.Now you can picture them any way you want.Do they have to be Greys,or the comic book creatures you read about?No,they do not,but,you can have your opinion.Truth is,and i personally believe this,That the only way we will ever know about the other forms of life out there,is when our government decides to come front and tell us the truth about it.But when will that happen?,even i don't know that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beard Baron View Post
    Also, I doubt any civilization capable of interstellar travel would associate themselves with a stupid, primitive animal like humans. They'd be intelligent to see how unbearably dumb humans are, and if given advanced technology, we'd surely kill ourselves and everything on this planet, and as such they would never contact us until we are deemed ready. Which, I think, will be when we are also capable of interstellar travel.
    I've noticed this is a very common sentiment on this forum. I wonder if it's because the scientific community tends to have an above average IQ, and so that colors how it experience contact with its own species?

    It would be really funny if an advanced alien species were to show up, and it turns out that our species is the smart one. They just evolved first, and had thousands and thousands of years to figure out how to do stuff. Or maybe they're intelligent, but it's only due to cybernetic implants that enhance their own brains' potentials by grafting them into supercomputers? So, when they really want to think hard about something, they plug their head into the ship's on board computer with a USB cable and get a temporary IQ boost.

    Not to mention that is an IQ was the result of years of hard research not from birth then would that mean that if our information that we earnt to gain a higher IQ at a later date could be compremised by others to become what we are. At elast my IQ has been one of a hard earnt reflection of what i truefully went out to earnhard for without using others to get where I am
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    Whatever your alleged IQ is, your English ain't good. You'd think a smart person would be more careful
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    Aliens do not exist. And angels do not exist either. We're all just people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tytj8501 View Post
    Aliens do not exist. And angels do not exist either. We're all just people.
    It should be possible aliens exist, given the size of space. No actual proof yet of course.
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    On a sub-atomic particle basis humans are the basis of life, because the particles that make up humans are known to man kind. that is to say that potentially life could be created elsewhere in the planet but that would require the correct genetic makeup which would be similar to ours of course though different in the way it was arranged. Plus it would have to have the necessary resources as we know it to produce life that could survive.
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    Does anyone know any aliens.No aliens don't exist.If aliens did exist ,then someone would know them or someone that knows them.No aleins do not exist.But I can't say for certain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapien View Post
    Does anyone know any aliens.No aliens don't exist.If aliens did exist ,then someone would know them or someone that knows them.
    If aliens exist on a planet 2,000 light years away then nobody (here) would know them. So I don't think your argument works.

    No aleins do not exist.But I can't say for certain.
    You sound pretty certain.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    By statistical averages you are right,except you forgot a few variables that might also exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapien View Post
    By statistical averages you are right,except you forgot a few variables that might also exist.
    Would you care to clarify that? Was that a response to my comment? Nothing I said was dependent on statistics or averages, just a statement that you cannot know that there are no aliens.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    We don't know except for science what is out there in the universe.Which seems to me to leave the possibilitise of alien civilizations.But by the same reasoning it leaves open the possibilities of things from sci-fi movies .This of course includes planet of the Easter Bunnies.
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    Well, this revived thread - dormant since 2011 - is not, thus far, heading in a very positive direction.

    Let me begin by welcoming you, tytj8501, to the forum and then comment on your posts.

    Aliens do not exist. And angels do not exist either. We're all just people.
    Since this is a science forum we like to discuss science, the findings of science, the scientific method and so forth. Opinions may creep into some posts, but they should generally be subordinate to facts, established theory, or well reasoned argument.

    If you make a statement as definitive as "aliens do not exist" you really need to back it up with some kind of evidence. (The evidence we really like is the kind you can find in peer reviewed research papers published in reputable science journals, but for the sake of a good discussion the bar can be set lot lower.)

    Introducing comments about angels carries all sorts of implications about religion. If that is not what you intended then it would have been helpful to be more informative. Generally we try to keep religion out of scientific discussions.

    I am completely at a loss as to what you mean by saying we are all just people. Are we also all just rabbits? Or elm trees? You do need to expand on what you've said in order for me to understand its relevance.

    On a sub-atomic particle basis humans are the basis of life, because the particles that make up humans are known to man kind.
    Either you have expressed yourself badly, or you are badly mistaken. Humans arrived three and a half billion years after life appeared on the Earth, so there is no way in which they are the basis of life. Just because we know about quarks and atoms and DNA does not make us the basis of life.

    that is to say that potentially life could be created elsewhere in the planet but that would require the correct genetic makeup which would be similar to ours of course though different in the way it was arranged. Plus it would have to have the necessary resources as we know it to produce life that could survive.
    ??? Do you mean:
    1) We are no in a position of being able to create life.
    2) Life could arise again on the planet, but it would be similar to what is currently present.
    3) Something else.

    tytj8501, please do not take these observations as an attack on you. I am sure you have some interesting contributions to make to the forum, but at present you aren't making much sense. I hope you will post again, taking the time to explain your thinking a little more clearly.


    Sapien, also welcome to the forum. You say this:

    Does anyone know any aliens.No aliens don't exist.If aliens did exist ,then someone would know them or someone that knows them.No aleins do not exist.But I can't say for certain.
    Since aliens, by definition, would be from other planets and we have not yet visited any other planets that are likely to harbour aliens, and there are no well-confirmed instances of them visiting us, then is not surprising that no one knows any aliens. Strange has already made the same point.

    We simply do not know if life like that on Earth is unique, rare, commonplace, or ubiquitous. Your last sentence is correct. It disagrees completely with your earlier statements.

    By statistical averages you are right,except you forgot a few variables that might also exist.
    What variables are you talking about?
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    Tytj8501 = Sapien
    Both are relatively new and seem to agree on a rare view. They also use very similar writing styles. To top it off, they're posting in a thread that's been dead since 2011, which is suspicious activity. Leave it to detective Moon, genius sleuth, to deduce they are in fact the same person.
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    So,do aliens exist? No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapien View Post
    So,do aliens exist? No.

    It is advisable to demonstrate why you think that that statement is (most likely) true.
    Note that I stated "most likely", since it is fallacious to challenge you to prove a negative.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapien View Post
    So,do aliens exist? No.
    How can you possibly know that? It seems unlikely that we are the only planet with life in the entire galaxy, never mind the universe.

    There are about 400 billion stars just in our galaxy. Most of them have planets. And there are at least 170 billion such galaxies just in the observable universe. That is about 1000000000000000000000000 stars.

    You are really certain that none of those gazillions of planets don't have life? Really?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    What if they're not aliens but Humans from the far, far future who accidentally got sent back in time when they accidentally mixed up metric and imperial units when programming their wormhole-traveling technology?
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    aliens alien aliens... stupid stupid stupid... aliens aliens aliens...me you he she
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    What if they're not aliens but Humans from the far, far future who accidentally got sent back in time when they accidentally mixed up metric and imperial units when programming their wormhole-traveling technology?

    Strange and Neverfly like this.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Long time lurker, just wanted to post all of a sudden.

    I tend to think that aliens possessing a commonality to us in dimensional time and space do not exist. In no way obviously could I state it empirically one way or the other. Of course, most persons opinions on such subjects are colored by their own interpretive framework of the universe. As such, I believe our thoughts on how big the universe is, are rather in a box. We have only what we perceive as existence, how could we have anything else, although technically were one able to stand back and observe all of existence, mayhaps this entire universe is but a blip of dimensional existence within few or many other dimensional existences. Maybe there are aliens or what we would conceive to be aliens that exist in entirely different planes of existence. Maybe their own universes are as big as ours. Not to discount of course a belief in spiritual entities, ghosts projections or other such things that aren't so tangible to us (if they were to exist, I am not saying they do). Would those qualify as aliens, and if those could in some way make a path into our perceived existence, would we then see them as aliens? As much as I love Firefly, Star Trek, and pretty much anything of the sort, I've no reason to believe it is anything like that, although I will happily dream of it.

    If they do exist, in the way that people tend to formulate them in their heads currently, it would neither surprise nor rock me. If they didn't at all I would have the same reaction, but I still like to think of it. Due to my framework and beliefs, I tend to believe they exist but in entirely different universes, and I do believe in spiritual and metaphysical entities as well.

    We do struggle hard to point out life everywhere, perhaps it is better to spend more time reflecting on the life we do actually know empirically exists..but well that is boring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhokie View Post
    I tend to think that aliens possessing a commonality to us in dimensional time and space do not exist.
    In other words they might as well not exist.

    We have only what we perceive as existence, how could we have anything else, although technically were one able to stand back and observe all of existence, mayhaps this entire universe is but a blip of dimensional existence within few or many other dimensional existences.
    What do you mean by "dimensional existences"?

    I tend to believe they exist but in entirely different universes
    In other words they might as well not exist.

    and I do believe in spiritual and metaphysical entities as well.
    Er, okay...
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    I mean that the dimensions we perceive and exist within, might be but a shadow of greater existence overall. If there are countless galaxies within our perception. I could conceive that there could be countless universes beyond it. Differing laws, differing existence.

    What, you can firmly believe in aliens without any actual observable evidence, but can't believe in spirits? Eh, either way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhokie View Post
    I mean that the dimensions we perceive and exist within, might be but a shadow of greater existence overall. If there are countless galaxies within our perception. I could conceive that there could be countless universes beyond it. Differing laws, differing existence.

    What, you can firmly believe in aliens without any actual observable evidence, but can't believe in spirits? Eh, either way.

    How do you define "spirits"?
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhokie View Post
    I mean that the dimensions we perceive and exist within, might be but a shadow of greater existence overall. If there are countless galaxies within our perception. I could conceive that there could be countless universes beyond it. Differing laws, differing existence.
    So you're not talking about anything real...

    What, you can firmly believe in aliens without any actual observable evidence, but can't believe in spirits? Eh, either way.
    There's nothing mysterious about life (beyond the obvious, of course).
    Positing that Earth is the only planet in the entire universe to have life on it is a rather large step.
    Spirits, however, are something else entirely.
    What evidence do we have that spirits exists at all?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    It can be true.I have watched the Obama's body guard turning into an alien video.And those bald guys,they never looked real to me.Maybe I am wrong.
    There could be life somewhere out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPayne View Post
    It can be true.I have watched the Obama's body guard turning into an alien video.And those bald guys,they never looked real to me.Maybe I am wrong.
    Oh boy.
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    Aliens do exist, and they have taken over the minds of nutjobs who come into these forums to try and start anti religious diatribes.
    They are legion, and feed off of the silliness of those "discussions". And when they can dine no more on that insanity, they finish eating the brains of the possessed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sculptor
    Aliens do exist, and they have taken over the minds of nutjobs who come into these forums to try and start anti religious diatribes.
    I have heard the "you're not a real atheist" comment a few times directed towards atheists who are harsh towards religion. I personally want the word 'god' removed from the US dollar, pledge of allegiance removed from school and sports. I dislike the word 'anti religious' because even the most peaceful and non-confrontational nonreligious people are often considered anti-religious in the minds of the religious.

    Richard Dawkins would be considered anti-religious by most in general, and I don't view him as a nutjob. As for diabtribes, I can say I never directly insult religious people to their faces(but I do insult all religion in general). Meanwhile, a portion of members on this site(I won't name them) that claim to hate anti-religious people are the first ones to refer to the theist they're debating as an 'idiot' or some other insult.

    My personal opinion is to not distinguish between nonreligious and anti-religious, to only use the term nonreligious. Context is more important, as some 'anti-religious' people don't even use diatribes. Anti-religious is nonreligious, they are not separate things.
    Last edited by MoonCanvas; October 4th, 2013 at 07:06 PM.
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    There is a broad misconception concerning "religious" and the book which contains the words of the followers of the followers of the children of Abraham:
    They are not equal.

    If one does not know the teachings of Zarathustra, nor the vedic manuscripts, then there becomes a pseudo-understanding that the "BOOK" stands alone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    There is a broad misconception concerning "religious" and the book which contains the words of the followers of the followers of the children of Abraham:
    They are not equal.

    If one does not know the teachings of Zarathustra, nor the vedic manuscripts, then there becomes a pseudo-understanding that the "BOOK" stands alone.
    So what you're saying is that your original contention is incorect, since vast majority of "diatribes" specifically state - by reference - that they're against religion as specified by "the book".
    OTOH, give us some waffle from Zarathustra or the vdeic manuscripts and we'll probably point out how inane they are too.
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    go for it
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    if there is any sciencer who believe in aliens should be fired immediately...
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackscorp View Post
    if there is any sciencer who believe in aliens should be fired immediately...
    It would be helpful if you wrote in coherent English.
    I take your mangled phraseology to mean ""If there are any scientists who believe in aliens he should be fired immediately".
    It depends on what YOU mean by "believe in".
    Aliens that have visited us? Probably, it depends on how (or if) he applies that belief to his work.
    The possibility that aliens that exist somewhere in the universe? Hardly a firing matter - it's rational belief, possibly more rational than believing that Earth is the sole inhabited planet in the entire universe.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; October 5th, 2013 at 11:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPayne View Post
    It can be true.I have watched the Obama's body guard turning into an alien video.And those bald guys,they never looked real to me.Maybe I am wrong.
    There could be life somewhere out there.

    YouTube videos of the shape-shifting body guard of the POTUS cannot be used to base our opinion on about the existence of alien life.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    YouTube videos of the shape-shifting body guard of the POTUS cannot be used to base our opinion on about the existence of alien life.
    but they can be used to assess whether intelligent life exists on Earth.
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    Maybe, i mean there are equations meant to calculate the possibility of life. Although we can say non intelligent "alien" life exist outside of our biosphere such as bacteria found on asteroids for one example and there are a few other examples. However the quest to find intelligent life would be the main agenda i guess. Although i would say, if aliens developed intelligence, how can we measure it? I mean don't all animals have a means of communicating, some use tools and others don't. If we are to quantify intelligent beings with those using tools than probably it could be a very small to maybe a no answer, if we say intelligence by communication and the ability to adapt, the possibility expands itself to a highly possible yes.

    If you can answer how we quantify this form of "intelligence" which is usually portrayed in movies as beings who used advanced technology with the capability to surpass our modern arsenal which is quite narrow-minded, where the only way for the development of technology for any living being should and must be that of tools before intelligence can be expressed, when even intelligent discussions are even taking place now without the use of tools in consideration but the question of knowledge such is philsophy, showing that tools could possibly be a bad indicator of alien intelligence. I would be interested if anyone can define how we are going to quantify this intelligence and whether would it be restricted to that of our own development cycle or to include the possibility of others.

    Tools and technology is a display of intelligence which is probably unique to us and a few other species. However other life forms express their intelligence is an aspect that can use clarification so as to establish a system to classify what is meant by the existence of "intelligent aliens".
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Although we can say non intelligent "alien" life exist outside of our biosphere such as bacteria found on asteroids for one example and there are a few other examples.

    Which bacteria?
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  81. #80  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Although we can say non intelligent "alien" life exist outside of our biosphere such as bacteria found on asteroids for one example and there are a few other examples.

    Which bacteria?
    The Cyanobacteria that many scientist are skeptical about from the 2011 and 1996 discovery. Although a source of debate, it shows there is a high chance of life, but the question of whether you are looking for bacterial or intelligent life and how does one define this intelligence is the main point of my post.

    Sources of the 2011 find:
    Alien fossils found in meteorite? Scientists urge skepticism. - CSMonitor.com
    Has life been found in a meteorite? : Bad Astronomy

    Please excuse my ability to find sources that are reliable since i am not familiar with which source is reliable and neither can i take them all as unreliable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    The Cyanobacteria that many scientist are skeptical about from the 2011 and 1996 discovery. Although a source of debate, it shows there is a high chance of life, but the question of whether you are looking for bacterial or intelligent life and how does one define this intelligence is the main point of my post.

    Sources of the 2011 find:
    Alien fossils found in meteorite? Scientists urge skepticism. - CSMonitor.com
    Has life been found in a meteorite? : Bad Astronomy

    I have checked the links you have provided, but I am afraid that their reliability is not high.
    Although the CSMonitor does provide the necessary links and information, it is immediately clear that the validity of the primary source is questionable.
    The Journal of Cosmology is not a peer-reviewed journal and has a habit of "publishing" erroneous claims.

    From your article:
    "In response to some critics questioning why the research wasn't published in the more prestigious journals Science or Nature, the Journal of Cosmology responded with a statement that "both Science and Nature have a nasty history of rejecting extremely important papers, some of which later earned the authors a Nobel Prize." "Science and Nature are in the business of making money," the journal charged. "The Journal of Cosmology, is free, open access, and is in the business of promoting science.""



    The second article is, despite being written by Phil Plait, not very reliable either.
    It is a blog and thus written from a personal viewpoint (although he sums it up quite nicely).

    About ALH84001, I quote from an earlier thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AndreLeCoz View Post
    pretty sure it was inconclusive exactly because the data couldn't show life was fundamentally present or absent.
    Only the original researchers maintained a belief that ALH84001 contained evidence of life. A subtantial number of other researchers strongly disputed the notion and offered valid alternative explanations for the observations. Mackay and his associates backed off of their orignal strong position, to a "well, it might be true" position.

    Also, a minor point, technically I don't think NASA maintain the meteorite contains evidence of life. I believe NASA has retreated to a mroe neutral position. It is Mackay and his team of NASA researchers who hold the belief. It is a small, but significant difference.
    (cf. Panspermia?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Please excuse my ability to find sources that are reliable since i am not familiar with which source is reliable and neither can i take them all as unreliable.

    There is no need for apologies!
    It is good to post sources, because it allows everyone to check the validity of one's claims and sources.
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    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    The second article is, despite being written by Phil Plait, not very reliable either.
    It is a blog and thus written from a personal viewpoint (although he sums it up quite nicely).
    Very true, as he points out he does not know, is posting a personal series of opinions as well as extreme skeptisim.
    However, in defense of The Bad Astronomer, he followed up quickly as the top of the blog points out: Followup thoughts on the meteorite fossils claim : Bad Astronomy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    The second article is, despite being written by Phil Plait, not very reliable either.
    It is a blog and thus written from a personal viewpoint (although he sums it up quite nicely).
    Very true, as he points out he does not know, is posting a personal series of opinions as well as extreme skeptisim.
    However, in defense of The Bad Astronomer, he followed up quickly as the top of the blog points out: Followup thoughts on the meteorite fossils claim : Bad Astronomy

    Thank you for posting this blog entry.
    The critiques are sound and I am glad he has written a follow-up. I think this sufficiently demonstrates that the 2011 findings are not of an extraterrestrial origin.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dbhokie View Post
    I mean that the dimensions we perceive and exist within, might be but a shadow of greater existence overall. If there are countless galaxies within our perception. I could conceive that there could be countless universes beyond it. Differing laws, differing existence.
    So you're not talking about anything real...


    Well, I am talking about imagination and raising theoretical thoughts that I find fun. As to whether or not it's real I can't say it is or isn't.

    What, you can firmly believe in aliens without any actual observable evidence, but can't believe in spirits? Eh, either way.
    There's nothing mysterious about life (beyond the obvious, of course).
    Positing that Earth is the only planet in the entire universe to have life on it is a rather large step.
    Spirits, however, are something else entirely.
    What evidence do we have that spirits exists at all?
    Now I am not being dogmatic, I am presenting a differing idea, one that I find to be quite entertaining in my mind. There is no evidence for the existence of aliens outside of probabilities, ideas and theories, so I interject a different thought process into the mix.

    Obviously being in a plane of existence not observable to us, all evidence of such things much like aliens is anecdotal. A corporeal existence, I don't think is something to be just discounted with a wave of a hand, no more than aliens. There are many accounts of spiritual encounters, paranormal activity (that if even but a fraction is true (which it might not be, but I don't know for sure myself in any kind of omniscient fashion)), can also make sense logically and scientifically, we just wouldn't have the scientific framework to understand the laws governing the interactions..(I would wager at some point it would all relate to energy, or informational transfer).

    However, I am not putting forth dogmatism on something unobserved, just bringing it up in a pseudoscience forum for fun
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