Notices
Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: science and spiritual reality

  1. #1 science and spiritual reality 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8
    Thoughts about the existence of spiritual things (ghost) is very common in every society but whether these thing have any scientific proof of existing?
    please comments.
    __________________________________________________ ____________________
    @@@@Every body have his own place and I have my own


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Science is acknowleding the possible existence of spirtual phenomena, buddhists, meditation etc. So why not eventually? Its still best to keep 50/50 skeptic because there is still as many truths as lies out there...


    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Delusions and irrational beliefs are also common in all societies. There is evidence for these but none for "spiritual things" like ghosts.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Skin Walker, I recommend finding a decent medium, one from recommendations of people who they were accurate with. Make sure it is a viable source you go to, and then let all the science in the world explain how a medium could read word for word a letter from a friend of mine who commited suicide, to which I had never read and opened for the first time that very day, it being locked in the cupboard for 5 years.

    Without having ever known this medium or any possible way they could also have an identical copy of the letter.

    They are real, not ghosts, thats a common stereotype, spirits are alive and they are all around us. If science unplugged the cork out there arse, blasted all that crap they keep in their on purpose and abandoned emotionally held high skepticism we could put an end to this debate once and for all....

    Unfortuanetly, scientists would rather disprove something 'obsurd' and dare not delve into explaining something obsurd for fear of their precious reputation, pride and ego.... its a shame really. Scienctific institutions are equally as corrupt as any political orders, criminal undergrounds and corporate businesses.

    PS. Most Haunted is so staged. 8)
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    I think sometimes we're quick to hold a statement in the silliest light imaginable, when a little liberalism of language could see it as reasonable, insightful. Sometimes the same term used by flakey mystics also nails a useful concept better than any other word.

    For example my wife could talk about the "spirit" attached to some people's homes, places, or objects. She might describe it as a "sick air" not refering to the oxygen levels or anything empirically detectable. But we all know what's being sensed is instantly tangible to 3rd parties. We all sense the spirit in Apple products and indeed real profits are made because of it, she says.

    Yet if she is Japanese do we scoff at her shinto-rooted mumbo-jumbo? Though she claims atheism?

    Can I say that people leave a presence in what they touch, which others later pick up? Can I say these presences live on and echo through those who come in contact with them? Isn't "haunting" just the best word to describe that?

    I guess we're unready to enter words like ghost and haunt into our sober vocabularies. But for now at least we could admit that "spirit" is a pretty useful term in all its fuzziness and bandy it without apology. Otherwise we may as well clearcut Cathedral Grove, since there's no scientific evidence it's anything besides old trees.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    Skin Walker, I recommend finding a decent medium,
    Forgive me, but this is where I stopped reading.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    JX
    JX is offline
    Forum Junior JX's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    288
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    Science is acknowleding the possible existence of spirtual phenomena
    I'm not quite sure what organizational body constitutes 'Science' in that it can have this type of opinion, but I'll assume you're talking about the general collective of modern scientists. In this case, I disagree completely. While there may be individual scientists who entertain such notions, these sorts of "phenomena", as you call it, are all assumed to have an explanation that fits within explainable boundaries. You will never hear an actual scientist say, "Nah we can't apply the Scientific Method to that, it's magic!".

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    buddhists, meditation
    I'm not quite sure how these are being used to prove whatever point you were trying to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    So why not eventually? Its still best to keep 50/50 skeptic because there is still as many truths as lies out there...
    For the same reason I don't hold a 50/50 belief that Harry Potter is actually at Hogwarts just because I can't see him. Why is it best to keep skeptic with absolutely no evidence for something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    ...and abandoned emotionally held high skepticism we could put an end to this debate once and for all....
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    Unfortuanetly, scientists would rather disprove something 'obsurd' and dare not delve into explaining something obsurd for fear of their precious reputation, pride and ego.... its a shame really. Scienctific institutions are equally as corrupt as any political orders, criminal undergrounds and corporate businesses.
    This is bullshit. I suggest you check out one of many attempts to allow these charlatans to prove this "spiritual phenomena". One of the most famous is the $1 Million Challenge which has been offering money since 1968 to anyone that will come in and perform any kind of paranormal activity under scientific conditions. Surprise surprise, no one has been able to do it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    The earth is flat
    Telecommunications won't work
    Light cannot be used to communicate
    We can't travel to space
    God is real
    Time is the same throughout the universe
    The universe rotates around the earth


    These exact words over the years have been said in our civilisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    Skin Walker, I recommend finding a decent medium,
    Forgive me, but this is where I stopped reading.
    So how does posting that contribute to the discussion? If your intent was to indicate that such a notion is ridiculous, just say so.

    It seems you merely want to point out to me, and to others that what I am discussing is drivel (in your opinion), subtly, with intent to subconsciously conform others to the same mantra by appropriate choice of language...

    Very clever, yet pointless. If you want to discuss with me why you personally skinwalker think that mediums and spirituality is poppycock, please state why, that way we can have a discussion.

    So what about mediums puts you off the idea of finding a 'real' one?


    For the same reason I don't hold a 50/50 belief that Harry Potter is actually at Hogwarts just because I can't see him. Why is it best to keep skeptic with absolutely no evidence for something?
    Totally different, Harry potter is a fictional charater, if I were to hear stories of him being real, along with his amazing magical school I would be immensley skeptical, who wouldn't? I think you might have used the wrong analogy there, or misunderstood me.

    Its best to keep skeptic with no evidence because our instruments may not be able to measure certain phenomena, for instance our instruments may be rubbish at scientifically documenting spiritual phenomena, doesn't neccisarily mean that it doesn't exist.

    Its like God, there is absolutley no evidence for God whatsoever, yet claims of spirits, mediums, personal expereinces, personal sightings, etc etc, are viable and testable. Not provable, yet testable. Many accepted scientific theories are in fact that, theories, doesn't mean they are 100% true even if there is a great amount of evidence pointing to it.

    Granted some all of them may be hoaxes, trickery, subliminal manipulation, lies, deciet and overal delusions, yet you cannot rule out the fact that they might be telling the truth... there is never a 100% possibilty that anything isn't possible.

    Harry Potter down to the tee, or the stories the books point out, due to the overwhelming infinite probability of parallel universes, and sheer uncertainty suggests that he actually might exist in a far off parallel universe. Its not 100% impossible, maybe only 99.99 with a thousand more nines after possible, yet not and never totally impossible.

    By that definition god exists somewhere, which throws my atheist standpoint out the window, never the less that isn't in question, whats in question is that we should never sidetrack something, never assume that something does not exist, simply because it sounds prepostorus, because several thousand fuzzy haired old women with crystal balls made a bad name for it.

    This is bullshit. I suggest you check out one of many attempts to allow these charlatans to prove this "spiritual phenomena". One of the most famous is the $1 Million Challenge which has been offering money since 1968 to anyone that will come in and perform any kind of paranormal activity under scientific conditions. Surprise surprise, no one has been able to do it.
    People won't believe what they don't want to. With most scientists, they don't want to believe that spirits exist. In the end, why would they? What you believe is truth. Einstein believed that the universes force of gravity is caused by curved spacetime, which we use tensors, scalars and other maths to explain.... doesn't neccisarily mean that he is right, it might not be that.... it works but it might be nothing near what Einstein was talking about, just the same as why Newton could explain how gravity worked, just had no clue why it worked.

    If you believe it, it will come true. Maybe not the most impossible things in reality, yet most practical.

    Personally I don't care if anyone else doesn't believe in spirits or spirituality, what I care about is the way science is closing itself off and keeping an 'inside the box' mentality, and bringing children up on new dogma that our science is the true and only way to understanding the universe.... when it needs to expand and grow, not stay the same and collect dust on some library bookshelf.

    No my friend, faith is needed. Faith that any scientific theory is true is what makes it a reality. If you doubt faith has any contribution to the world I suggest you read 'think and grow rich' by Napoleon Hill....

    You have faith that science is right. Its a known fact that most science of the past can be disproven with todays science, likewise the futures science will one day disprove many theories of today....

    Thats when we're all long dead, either that or having tea with noddy and harry potter inside Oz.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    JX
    JX is offline
    Forum Junior JX's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    288
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    The earth is flat
    Telecommunications won't work
    Light cannot be used to communicate
    We can't travel to space
    God is real
    Time is the same throughout the universe
    The universe rotates around the earth
    The difference is that most of these were/are able to be scientifically tested.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    If you want to discuss with me why you personally skinwalker think that mediums and spirituality is poppycock, please state why, that way we can have a discussion.
    No. The burden of proof is on you, not those of us who don't believe in something that hasn't been verified. You have to prove why you believe in this, we don't have to prove why we don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    Totally different, Harry potter is a fictional charater, if I were to hear stories of him being real, along with his amazing magical school I would be immensley skeptical, who wouldn't?
    Exactly, I would be skeptical. Just like I am skeptical when I hear about people who can magically talk to spirits and other such nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    Its best to keep skeptic with no evidence because our instruments may not be able to measure certain phenomena, for instance our instruments may be rubbish at scientifically documenting spiritual phenomena, doesn't neccisarily mean that it doesn't exist.
    I'm not asking for exact measurements or an instrument to 'read' paranormal activity. I'm asking for one of these 'mediums' to perform their craft under scientific conditions - successfully.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    Its like God, there is absolutley no evidence for God whatsoever, yet claims of spirits, mediums, personal expereinces, personal sightings, etc etc, are viable and testable.
    Yes. They are testable. So why have none of them pasted a verifiable test?


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    ...there is never a 100% possibilty that anything isn't possible.
    Even if this were true, it would be no reason to believe something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    Harry Potter down to the tee, or the stories the books point out, due to the overwhelming infinite probability of parallel universes, and sheer uncertainty suggests that he actually might exist in a far off parallel universe. Its not 100% impossible, maybe only 99.99 with a thousand more nines after possible, yet not and never totally impossible.
    To say that something may be possible in a possible parallel universe has absolutely no bearing on your argument about mediums. They are here, in this universe, claiming they have supernatural power.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    whats in question is that we should never sidetrack something, never assume that something does not exist, simply because it sounds prepostorus...
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    People won't believe what they don't want to. With most scientists, they don't want to believe that spirits exist.
    Did you even look at the link I posted? They are not just dismissing these so-called 'mediums.' They are providing them an opportunity to do what should be easy for them, if they were telling the truth, under laboratory conditions. Why can a medium do something in their house, but not in a lab?

    There are many people, myself included, that would like nothing more than to find people that can prove their mystical power was real. But there aren't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    If you believe it, it will come true. Maybe not the most impossible things in reality, yet most practical.
    Please don't throw crap like this into a discussion. What proof do you have for this statement?


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    ...what I care about is the way science is closing itself off and keeping an 'inside the box' mentality, and bringing children up on new dogma that our science is the true and only way to understanding the universe.... when it needs to expand and grow, not stay the same and collect dust on some library bookshelf.
    The scientific community is in no way closing itself off to this crap. They have asked to test for paranormal activity, and they have, but have found absolutely no medium that could withstand the scientific method.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    No my friend, faith is needed. Faith that any scientific theory is true is what makes it a reality.
    No, the scientific method is what make it a reality. Scientists do not sit around having faith that their theory is correct, they look for evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    If you doubt faith has any contribution to the world I suggest you read 'think and grow rich' by Napoleon Hill....
    You are misconstruing his words to fit your needs. The kind of faith he spoke about was not faith in something that cannot be proved. It was faith in a self-affirmation context, not paranormal or spiritual faith.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime
    You have faith that science is right.
    I don't understand how you can equate my faith in science, and your faith in the paranormal. My faith is based on the knowledge that scientific theories will be based on at least some solid evidence. Paranormal faith requires the willing suspension of disbelief.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by JX
    The scientific community is in no way closing itself off to this crap. They have asked to test for paranormal activity, and they have, but have found absolutely no medium that could withstand the scientific method.
    That's closing, because of how the issue is framed and rigged to fail.

    There are "places" in the forest where 4 in 5 hikers will stop and remark (half seriously) "this place feels magical". The stance sceptical scientists will assume on that is, "Okay then, let's see you levitate a card table." Remember how they tested dowsers in a barn, with water pipes? Totally missed the implicit service dowsers effectively provide, everyday.

    A more fruitful scientific investigation, of say the "magical place", might be to measure hikers' physical progress and exhaustion, and whether or not they'd passed through the "spiritually uplifting" grove or a control grove.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    JX
    JX is offline
    Forum Junior JX's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    288
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    There are "places" in the forest where 4 in 5 hikers will stop and remark (half seriously) "this place feels magical". The stance sceptical scientists will assume on that is, "Okay then, let's see you levitate a card table."
    Look, I'm not saying we know all we're gonna know about the human condition and the world around us.

    What I'm saying is that mediums who claim to be able to perform supernatural feats that can be re-created in a lab should be obligated to do so. Why do people accept that these people refuse to do so - or rather that so many of them have tried and failed under any sort of scientific environment. How can anyone still believe something is so easily disproved?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Regarding explicit claims of directly testable phenomena I totally agree.

    I'm pointing out that in most cases (as happened to the OP) people with a dim view of the issue quickly move to frame it for empirical falsification. We could be having a fruitful discussion about "spiritual things" right now... in what ways if any are these things real... what terms should scientists use... etc.

    I know it's murky. Like trying to objectively test if art "exists".
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •