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Thread: Atlantis Site Mods, is this link ok

  1. #1 Atlantis Site Mods, is this link ok 
    Forum Freshman Amy Smith's Avatar
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    This is the pseudoscience forum, so I believe this is right

    My Atlantis site has been featured on World Mysteries.Com
    If it is not inappropriate I would like to post this link to
    World Mysteries.
    If you choose to remove this link, I understand.

    http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_1...tis_asmith.htm

    Check it out and see what you think

    Amy


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  3. #2  
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    The theory you're presenting, which you might want to explain briefly here, rather than just rely on the link, is reasonably consistent with something I remember from a documentary I was watching about clovis culture. Apparently, there's a 1-2 thousand year period in their history that takes up more than a foot of crust level in the area along the bank of a certain river near the Great Lakes region. It's clear that the erosion process was moving more rapidly during that time, while the Great Lakes ice sheets were melting.


    You seem to be hypothesizing that some other geological events were happening in shorter than usual amounts of time during that period as well. I don't see why there would be anything wrong with your theory of a land bridge between the Yucatan and the Dominican Republic getting washed away. Of course, I'm also not a geologist. I do have one question, however: what is the significance of that event in terms of the Atlantis myth?


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  4. #3 Atlantis 
    Forum Freshman Amy Smith's Avatar
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    kojax
    "I do have one question, however: what is the significance of that event in terms of the Atlantis"

    I am saying that the Caribbean area was Atlantis. In spite of the Clovis First Theory there were people in the Caribbean during this event. See the link,
    Pre-Clovis people-How did they get here
    at the bottom of the Atlantis page for info on the people of the Caribbean.

    Thanks, Amy
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  5. #4 Re: Atlantis Site Mods, is this link ok 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy Smith
    This is the pseudoscience forum, so I believe this is right

    My Atlantis site has been featured on World Mysteries.Com
    If it is not inappropriate I would like to post this link to
    World Mysteries.
    If you choose to remove this link, I understand.

    http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_1...tis_asmith.htm

    Check it out and see what you think

    Amy
    My primary objection is that you're requiring members of this forum to go elsewhere to read your speculations rather than discuss them here. Beyond that, and after having given a cursory glance at the rather poorly organized information at the link, I'd have to agree that you picked the correct subforum since there is a distinct pretense at doing science but an utter lack of it once the thin veil of "scientific sounding" verbiage and spurious correlations is lifted.

    Two key assumptions for the site appear to be: 1) some sort of hitherto unknown "tilt" of the earth revealed by the Noachian flood myth of early Hebrew mythology, and 2) a land bridge between the Yucatan Peninsula and Cuba during the last glaciation.

    The first is a non-issue and no great mystery. Precession of the Earth's axis is a well understood phenomenon and not any sort of mystery. Nor is there any evidence that anyone alive during the alleged time of "Noah" was aware of this precession. Moreover, there's no mention of it in the Mesopotamian texts that the Noachian flood myth are evolved from, so, as a literary device, and assuming that one believes Judeo-Christian pseudoepigripha like the "Book of Noah" have any value, the "earth tilt" line is a derived character -one that was invented by the author of the text. That is assuming that the quote itself isn't completely made up or even translated correctly.

    The second is, likewise, a non-issue and one that is telling of the pseudoscientific nature of the speculation at hand. The Yucatan Channel is, in many places between Cuba and Yucatan over 2000 m deep. The average depth is probably on the order of 1000 m. At the Last Glacial Maximum, sea levels dropped only 120 m and there is core evidence that shows transport via currents occurred through the channel during the LGM. In the completely opposite direction of the arrows drawn on the map on the link. There was no inundation; no land bridge.

    What I like about this, however, is that this sort of speculation is a good lesson to younger visitors to TSF who are genuinely interested in science and scientific investigation in that it demonstrates how easy it is for others on the internet to simply grab some real scientific data and mark it up to create a completely non-scientific conclusion. Snatching a graphic of bathymetry from the internet and simply drawing arrows isn't doing science. A simple literature review would have saved you some time.
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  6. #5 WORLD MYSTERIES.COM 
    Forum Freshman Amy Smith's Avatar
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    I couldn't agree more. If it's old fashion Pseudo Science or modern day Voodoo Science, take it all with a grain of salt. It's amazeing some of the horrors one can encounter in Cyber Space
    Oh by the way. Clovis first... wasn.t first. That's an example of modern day Voodoo science.

    Have a great day
    Amy
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  7. #6 Re: Atlantis 
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy Smith
    In spite of the Clovis First Theory there were people in the Caribbean during this event. See the link,
    Pre-Clovis people-How did they get here
    at the bottom of the Atlantis page for info on the people of the Caribbean.
    The links both lead back to the same National Geographic article you linked to in an earlier thread and you seem to have overlooked the question mark at the end of each title. Fact is the existence of 13,000 year ago Caribbean people is something that would turn the world of archaeology upside down. I would love it to be true, but at present it's speculation. As I mentioned in my response to you in the other thread, the carbon dating result on the skeletons hasn't been published a year after the skeletons were found. Why do you think that might be?
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  8. #7 Old Finds 
    Forum Freshman Amy Smith's Avatar
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    Bunbury
    Her are a few links to some other old finds pre-dating Clovis

    http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/clovis/
    Monte Verde,

    The Laguna Skull
    http://www.light-headed.com/asite/la...a_woman_10.php

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040302156.html
    Human Traces Found to Be Oldest in N. America

    These are from Archaeology Today and the Washington Post.
    I don't really know how well dated they are.

    Amy
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  9. #8 Re: Old Finds 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy Smith
    Bunbury
    Her are a few links to some other old finds pre-dating Clovis

    http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/clovis/
    Monte Verde,

    The Laguna Skull
    http://www.light-headed.com/asite/la...a_woman_10.php

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040302156.html
    Human Traces Found to Be Oldest in N. America

    These are from Archaeology Today and the Washington Post.
    I don't really know how well dated they are.

    Amy
    Please provide more commentary and opinion rather than just links. This is, after all, a discussion forum.
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  10. #9 Re: Atlantis 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    Fact is the existence of 13,000 year ago Caribbean people is something that would turn the world of archaeology upside down.
    As an archaeologist, I would say no, it wouldn't. 13,000 - 14,000 years is the currently accepted period of migration by people of the Pleistocene. We should expect them everywhere one can walk or swim a short distance (or perhaps even float in canoes or small reed boats). It doesn't take long for migration to happen among the genus Homo once the opportunities present themselves.

    While it isn't all that expected that there are people occupying the islands of the Caribbean that during the Pleistocene, such occupation wouldn't be so significant as to "turn archaeology upside down." We would barely need to revise assumptions and would do so eagerly. For instance, there is firm evidence of the first peopling of Cuba at about 5,000 years ago. There is, however, a weaker line of evidence that supports a date around 7,000 to 10,000 years ago. I say weaker because this evidence is based on lithic styles and not radiocarbon or other direct dating method. The latter evidence is suggestive, but not conclusive. At best, we can say that people on Cuba used or deposited lithics that were consistent with lithics used elsewhere 7 - 10 kya.

    I would love it to be true, but at present it's speculation. As I mentioned in my response to you in the other thread, the carbon dating result on the skeletons hasn't been published a year after the skeletons were found. Why do you think that might be?
    And that's an important point. There are some problems with radiocarbon that are important to consider (creationists are always eager to point this out, but usually misunderstand them or miss the real problems altogether. Dates can be overestimated if carbon is absorbed from rocks, concentrating the C-12 isotope; they can be underestimated if absorbed from humic acids of plants that percolate down into the stratum, concentrating the C-14 isotopes. These problems become more significant with each half-life involved (Carbon-14 has a half life of 5730 years) since even a minute change can significantly alter the date.

    The Laguna skull is an example. The skull was dated to 17,000 years but the long bones (a femur and perhaps a tibia or humerus if memory serves correct) were dated to around 10,000 to 14,000 years, consistent with Pleistocene migration. We know the cranial and post-cranial remains are associated because of the fluorine analysis. The amount of fluorine present in a sample of bone is proportional to the amount of time it was buried since fluorine is absorbed from the surrounding soil matrix. This isn't a method of dating an artifact, rather a method of associating it to other artifacts from the same site in order to correlate and provide context. Both the cranial and post-cranial could have absorbed carbon at differential rates from surrounding carbonate rocks but fluorine absorption would likely have been consistent between the samples.
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    Yes, that was a bit of an exaggeration I suppose. But how strong is the evidence for human habitation of the Caribbean? My bro-in-law is working on a project in Florida, a sinkhole, where they have one artifact (a wooden stake in a tortoise carapace) that was dated at 12,000 BP but he doesn’t regard that single data point as conclusive. A recent find of another wooden stake, after initial excitement, turned out to be “only” 7,000 years old. Here’s a link to his site:

    http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/groups/lss/

    The genetic evidence that I've read about seems to suggest that the initial migration from Asia was of a very small group of people. How long would it take for this group to expand its numbers and populate both the western shoreline down to South America and the central and eastern parts of the continent? This isn’t rhetorical – I’m curious as to what archaeologists think is a reasonable time span for the population of a continent from a (presumed) single starting point, considering the necessity of repeated adaptations to flora, fauna, climate and geography.
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    The first ever mention of Atlantis in both name and myth was by the philosopher Plato in his Critias and Timaeus dialogues. The idea that Atlantis is an actual place is just downright laughable to anyone who has even casually studied Plato and his works. If the story was based on anything, it was the destruction of Helike, a Greek city that literally sank into the ocean following an enormous earthquake that happened in Plato's lifetime. But Plato was not a historian, an archaeologist, nor anyone who would have any authoritative knowledge about any city that existed 9,000 years before his lifetime, let alone one that was located in a part of the world to which his entire civilization was completely oblivious. Plato was a philosopher. A philosopher who had made a name for himself writing works of fiction to convey his many religious, social, and political ideas. He certainly never described Atlantis as an actual place, nor did he expect anyone to. The belief in Atlantis as fact didn't even start until years after Plato had died.

    This is one of those myths where we know who wrote it and why, but for some reason people still want to believe it's real. One might as well go looking for Krypton.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finger
    This is one of those myths where we know who wrote it and why, but for some reason people still want to believe it's real. One might as well go looking for Krypton.
    krypton found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krypton

    or do you mean Kryptonite?

    also found: http://www.mindat.org/min-31570.html (almost)
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    From the second link:
    "So far the effects of Jadarite on superheroes have not been noted by researchers."

    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finger
    The first ever mention of Atlantis in both name and myth was by the philosopher Plato in his Critias and Timaeus dialogues. The idea that Atlantis is an actual place is just downright laughable to anyone who has even casually studied Plato and his works. If the story was based on anything, it was the destruction of Helike, a Greek city that literally sank into the ocean following an enormous earthquake that happened in Plato's lifetime.
    It's true that Greek philosophers often liked to tell fictional stories as parables to make a point about something more contemporary. If he makes up a lost city in the ocean, that... just so happens to have certain traits in common with his own culture...., and then proceeds to criticize it, nobody is going to arrest him and bring him before the council for criticizing a long lost city he made up.

    But Plato was not a historian, an archaeologist, nor anyone who would have any authoritative knowledge about any city that existed 9,000 years before his lifetime, let alone one that was located in a part of the world to which his entire civilization was completely oblivious.
    There's no way to know for sure what his civilization was or was not oblivious to. So many books from that time have been burned. There could have been any number of books/scrolls about it contained in the Great Library in Egypt, for example, before the Christians decided to destroy it. We only know stuff like that by indirect reference, if a surviving text happens to mention it.

    We do know Plato was literate, so that would put him above the common peasant. He also devoted a lot of time to study, which would put him above the common aristocrat, but he doesn't seem to have devoted his life to compiling history.

    Mormons often make a big deal about Joseph Smith being able to name specific sites in the middle east in his "Book of Mormon", which have turned out to be real places, when he only had a third grade education. The probable reason: he hung out with Masons, who know all kinds of mid-east lore/history, and love to make stories out of it. You can't place limitations on a person by way of education, or you open yourself up to some serious silliness.

    This is one of those myths where we know who wrote it and why, but for some reason people still want to believe it's real. One might as well go looking for Krypton.
    Interesting side note: From what little has been compiled of the Aztec's story of origin, they believed that their ancient ancestors had come from an island called "Aztlan", before they settled in their legendary home on a lake, hence the name "Aztec". I doubt the time line is right for that to have been Atlantis, or Atland (which is closer to what Plato called it.), but it is interesting.
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    Guh.. this is why it's so difficult to convince people that Atlantis is just make-believe. For over 2,000 years people who wanted it to be real have been building up the pseudo-scientific justifications for its "possible" existence. Do you have any real reason to believe that either the ancient Greeks or the ancient Egyptians knew about America?
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Interesting side note: From what little has been compiled of the Aztec's story of origin, they believed that their ancient ancestors had come from an island called "Aztlan", before they settled in their legendary home on a lake, hence the name "Aztec". I doubt the time line is right for that to have been Atlantis, or Atland (which is closer to what Plato called it.), but it is interesting.
    While the Aztec are immensely interesting, any suggested correlation between the word "Aztec" and "Atlantis" is spurious and laughable. A linguistic cognate does not exist between the two. Linguistically the sounds might be close, but the similarities between the words are mostly visual. When one considers that the Aztec didn't have a script that renders words the way we see them and that even the Greek alphabet is different, the similarities disappear. If the actual sounds of the words aren't different enough to dismiss the suggested correlation, then the lack of linguistic similarities and links between the languages should suffice.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finger
    Guh.. this is why it's so difficult to convince people that Atlantis is just make-believe. For over 2,000 years people who wanted it to be real have been building up the pseudo-scientific justifications for its "possible" existence. Do you have any real reason to believe that either the ancient Greeks or the ancient Egyptians knew about America?
    Everyone assumes ceterus paribus with the modern world. We live in the era of mass communication. They lived prior to the era of the printing press. If I were a mariner living in that age, and I discovered America, the last thing I would do is tell anyone about it.

    Instead, I would find out what the locals had to offer in trade, and what they wanted from me, and then keep it as my own exclusive trade route.

    There have been objects found in North America that appear to contain Hittite writing, but they're very uncommon. I don't know why people expect them to be common!! In the first place, only a master mariner would dare attempt a crossing of the Atlantic, even if he could be certain there would be a continent there. In the second place, with no technological advantage (no gun powder weapons), they wouldn't be able to conquer the natives, or set up lasting settlements unless they were very diplomatic about it.


    My impression is that Europeans have been discovering, and then forgetting about the Americas over and over again since the dawn of time. Columbus just happened to be the first one to do so after the printing press had been invented, and therefore the first to be widely published. (He sailed in 1492 and the printing press was invented in 1440)
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by Finger
    Guh.. this is why it's so difficult to convince people that Atlantis is just make-believe. For over 2,000 years people who wanted it to be real have been building up the pseudo-scientific justifications for its "possible" existence. Do you have any real reason to believe that either the ancient Greeks or the ancient Egyptians knew about America?
    Everyone assumes ceterus paribus with the modern world. We live in the era of mass communication. They lived prior to the era of the printing press. If I were a mariner living in that age, and I discovered America, the last thing I would do is tell anyone about it.

    Instead, I would find out what the locals had to offer in trade, and what they wanted from me, and then keep it as my own exclusive trade route.

    There have been objects found in North America that appear to contain Hittite writing, but they're very uncommon. I don't know why people expect them to be common!! In the first place, only a master mariner would dare attempt a crossing of the Atlantic, even if he could be certain there would be a continent there. In the second place, with no technological advantage (no gun powder weapons), they wouldn't be able to conquer the natives, or set up lasting settlements unless they were very diplomatic about it.


    My impression is that Europeans have been discovering, and then forgetting about the Americas over and over again since the dawn of time. Columbus just happened to be the first one to do so after the printing press had been invented, and therefore the first to be widely published. (He sailed in 1492 and the printing press was invented in 1440)
    Hmm do you have citations for the hittite writing?
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Everyone assumes ceterus paribus with the modern world. We live in the era of mass communication. They lived prior to the era of the printing press. If I were a mariner living in that age, and I discovered America, the last thing I would do is tell anyone about it.

    Instead, I would find out what the locals had to offer in trade, and what they wanted from me, and then keep it as my own exclusive trade route.
    People who believe pre-Columbian trade route between America and Europe/Africa typically don't have the slightest idea what such a claim entails. Crossing the Atlantic isn't like crossing the Meditaranian. You need a ship capable of traveling that distance even if the wind changes, you need a way to stave off scurvy and other illnesses, and you need a reliable and accurate means of navigation. The ancient world had none of those. If you want to propose that they did, you would need a lot more than an appeal to ignorance.

    Likewise, your concept of ancient trade is just as ridiculous. The first thing any trader would do is boast about where his goods came from. The more exotic, the more he can sell it for. You seem think that an absence of evidence means you get to pretend you're right anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    My impression is that Europeans have been discovering, and then forgetting about the Americas over and over again since the dawn of time. Columbus just happened to be the first one to do so after the printing press had been invented, and therefore the first to be widely published. (He sailed in 1492 and the printing press was invented in 1440)
    Yeah.. I'm going to go ahead and wager a guess that you don't have any evidence to support this either.
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  21. #20  
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    There have been objects found in North America that appear to contain Hittite writing, but they're very uncommon.
    They don't appear that way to anyone with an education.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    How long would it take for this group to expand its numbers and populate both the western shoreline down to South America and the central and eastern parts of the continent?

    ...considering the necessity of repeated adaptations to flora, fauna, climate and geography.
    Maritime people have less trouble adapting to variations in flora, fauna, and climate, because these are relatively consistent throughout the oceans. For examples you can gather mussels in Hawaii, Iceland, or Venezuela; you can harpoon killer whales and eat sea-lettuce off the coasts of Mexico, Argentina, or Japan. We may have wiped some areas clear of certain species - for example N. American sirenians (sea cows) now survive only in the Caribbean, though coastal peoples' petroglyphs show this easy prey once widespread along the Pacific.

    How long? A generation or so making good time could migrate camp between the far north and southern tip, without inconveniencing their seasonal work. The greatest impediment is hostility of other humans, in their territorial waters or shores, which of course first migrations don't encounter. The Tlingit of Alaska routinely traded and pillaged over 1,000 kilometers deep into Puget Sound. In the early 1800s after the exhaustion of northern sea otter, Aleuts brought their stretched-skin kayaks to hunt off California. So provided the people had boats, in archeological time they'd seem to be teleporting all over the place.

    The catch is that they'd leave no direct evidence. Maritime people wouldn't drag their boats and whale bones up-hill and inland where we'd find them today. And no calamity would make adoption of game hunting or agriculture more appealing than living off the sea. Settling the land requires radical adaptation.

    Monte Verde seems to represent many ways of life in transition, because we have a combination of big game, foraged seeds and berries, cooked seaweed, and even early potatoes, about a ten-hour walk from the sea.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finger
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Everyone assumes ceterus paribus with the modern world. We live in the era of mass communication. They lived prior to the era of the printing press. If I were a mariner living in that age, and I discovered America, the last thing I would do is tell anyone about it.

    Instead, I would find out what the locals had to offer in trade, and what they wanted from me, and then keep it as my own exclusive trade route.
    People who believe pre-Columbian trade route between America and Europe/Africa typically don't have the slightest idea what such a claim entails. Crossing the Atlantic isn't like crossing the Meditaranian. You need a ship capable of traveling that distance even if the wind changes, you need a way to stave off scurvy and other illnesses, and you need a reliable and accurate means of navigation. The ancient world had none of those. If you want to propose that they did, you would need a lot more than an appeal to ignorance.
    Those are exactly the same arguments that alien history theorists make about Stone Henge, and the Great Pyramids. "It was a difficult task, the people who came before us were inferior, therefore: they didn't do it."


    Likewise, your concept of ancient trade is just as ridiculous. The first thing any trader would do is boast about where his goods came from. The more exotic, the more he can sell it for. You seem think that an absence of evidence means you get to pretend you're right anyway.
    If it was gold, then I don't see any need for him to boast. The last thing you want to tell people is where you're getting gold from. I know spice traders certainly boasted, but that's because the whole appeal of their cargo is in its exotic-ness. The trouble with boasting, is that none of your contemporaries know whether to believe you or not, unless the item you're selling can't be found elsewhere.

    For what it's worth, there's some evidence of tobacco in the old world. Not sure I have the most reputable source here, but at least it gives some references for its content.

    http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf095/sf095a02.htm
    http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf111/sf111p01.htm


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    My impression is that Europeans have been discovering, and then forgetting about the Americas over and over again since the dawn of time. Columbus just happened to be the first one to do so after the printing press had been invented, and therefore the first to be widely published. (He sailed in 1492 and the printing press was invented in 1440)
    Yeah.. I'm going to go ahead and wager a guess that you don't have any evidence to support this either.
    The irony is that absence of evidence is the only support for your view. Not every hypothesis needs an infinity certain guarantee of accuracy in order to be worthy of entertaining/discussing it. Save the certainty for when you want to go official.

    Which is exactly my frustration here. There is no certainty, and yet it already has become official.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax

    If it was gold, then I don't see any need for him to boast. The last thing you want to tell people is where you're getting gold from. I know spice traders certainly boasted, but that's because the whole appeal of their cargo is in its exotic-ness. The trouble with boasting, is that none of your contemporaries know whether to believe you or not, unless the item you're selling can't be found elsewhere.

    For what it's worth, there's some evidence of tobacco in the old world. Not sure I have the most reputable source here, but at least it gives some references for its content.

    http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf095/sf095a02.htm
    http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf111/sf111p01.htm
    The genus of plants that Tobacco belongs to Nicotiana is found in southern Africa so the presence of nicotine is very easy to explain, as trade routes across the continent were well developed for many centuries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Those are exactly the same arguments that alien history theorists make about Stone Henge, and the Great Pyramids. "It was a difficult task, the people who came before us were inferior, therefore: they didn't do it."
    Not really. We know that the pyramids were built because, duh, they're standing right there. How is the unknown that the alien believers want to fill with fantasy. But you still haven't provided any credible reason to believe that a pre-Columbian transatlantic trade route ever existed in the first place. So fantasizing about the how is meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    The irony is that absence of evidence is the only support for your view. Not every hypothesis needs an infinity certain guarantee of accuracy in order to be worthy of entertaining/discussing it. Save the certainty for when you want to go official.
    You are once again showing a fundamental flaw in your critical thinking. One does not need to prove a negative. You saying, "Atlantis does exist" can only be correct if you can prove it. Since you haven't been able to do that, my response, "no it doesn't" is valid as long as you have no evidence (especially since there already exists a rational explanation for the origin of the myth that doesn't require us to ignore everything we know about the ancient world.)
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  26. #25  
    Time Lord
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    double post
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    The last thing you want to tell people is where you're getting gold from.
    Silk comes to mind. The mystery of silk production was guarded for 3000 years. That's an enormous trade & industry to keep under wraps.

    Also the Forbidden City jealously kept secrets of tea cultivation and processing - we credit Robert Fortune for spying out the truth that black tea was in fact fermented green tea, and for smuggling plants and horticultural knowledge into British India. Did the British, for their part, admit just where opium came from or how it was refined? Doubt it. After China got the poppy East India Company went belly up. Fortune also found out the industrial-grade bergamot and jasmine, stole those.

    And there's the real estate swindle of Iceland & Greenland.

    Today we have coffee ground from beans of two different plant species: arabica and robusta, though few coffee drinkers know this. Buyers are fed misinformation like "Italian blend" or "grown high on the mountain". We have basmati rice strains patented and grown exclusively in Texas. We have Kalashnikovs (AK-47s) mass produced somewhere not in Russia, and the frightening example of A.Q. Khan clandestine nuclear trade, that somehow built Pakistan a fully developed industry employing tens of thousands "below the radar".

    Kojax is absolutely right that sources of valuable commodities would be suppressed or misrepresented. He makes a very good point about the role of printing presses letting the New World cat out of the bag so to speak. Since Columbus blurted all to common knowledge, there was no value in keeping trade secrets.

    So what might have come earlier from the Americas AKA Atlantis? It sure wasnt' syphilis. Maybe just some Grand Banks salt cod? Perhaps America remained unknown simply because those in the know thought little of it.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    How long? A generation or so making good time could migrate camp between the far north and southern tip, without inconveniencing their seasonal work.oes, about a ten-hour walk from the sea.
    So a generation or so for a coastal culture to explore, and perhaps settle a long coastline. But the claim of 13,000 year old habitation of Cuba and Florida requires that a small group migrated across Beringia, down the coast, or through a gap between ice sheets on land, through Canada, and then populated the west coast as far as Monte Verde, while simultaneously breeding enough to expand eastwards, cross mountains, deserts and plains, not stopping at the fertile Mississippi Basin, and continuing on to settle in Florida, then build boats and sail to Cuba.

    This is if the Beringia theory is right. If there are in fact 13,000 YO remains there, does it seem at least equally plausible that the migration came the other way, from Europe, probably via a coastal route following the edge of the northern ice pack?
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Today we have coffee ground from beans of two different plant species: arabica and robusta, though few coffee drinkers know this. Buyers are fed misinformation like "Italian blend" or "grown high on the mountain". We have basmati rice strains patented and grown exclusively in Texas. We have Kalashnikovs (AK-47s) mass produced somewhere not in Russia, and the frightening example of A.Q. Khan clandestine nuclear trade, that somehow built Pakistan a fully developed industry employing tens of thousands "below the radar"."
    A coffee's flavor depends in part on where it is grown, not just the particular species. Same as a cigar. Tobacco grown in Cuba will taste different than that from Columbia. There's a big difference between lying about the origin of coffee and keeping secret continents with valuable trade goods, for centuries.

    Anyways, we know where Kalashnikovs are produced. You just check the serial number. I am not aware of any commonly used small arms variants with murky origins.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kukhri
    There's a big difference between lying about the origin of coffee and keeping secret continents with valuable trade goods, for centuries.
    Right, but there was also a big difference in how easy a secret was to keep. If a lot of people know the secret, and all it takes to let it out is for one person to betray you and publish it (if a printing press exists), then you'd need to be very lucky.

    If only maybe 1-3 people on your ship even know how to navigate well enough to know where you're headed, and the instructions are written on a single scrap of paper than can only be reproduced by making a hand copy (if a printing press does not exist), I'd say your secret is pretty safe.
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    Kojax, you're making a fool of yourself. Stop.

    You can imagine all you want, but the fact remains that you don't have a single shred of evidence to support anything you say. You're entire argument is one from wild speculation reliant upon a seemingly willful ignorance of every single subject you've tried to comment on. The closest you came to presenting an actual argument was that bit about the tobacco in Egypt, and even that was very easily and very thoroughly debunked by Paleoichneum with just a single sentence. Quit while you're behind.
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  32. #31  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    I'm still curious about these "objects found in America" with "Hittite writing."
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finger
    Kojax, you're making a fool of yourself. Stop.
    Um..... did you notice by chance, that this is the pseudo-science forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    I'm still curious about these "objects found in America" with "Hittite writing."
    I'm starting to find that my sources on that probably weren't very reliable. I went ahead and found them, though. Unfortunately, this is the guy who identified the most promising of the finds.

    http://www.badarchaeology.net/forgotten/barry_fell.php

    Here's a link about the tablet he's associated with, and an image of the tablet.

    http://www.jewellhistories.com/ancient_mines.htm

    '


    The site claims it compares to a language called Capriot.

    Here's a link to that language: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/cypriot.htm



    Some of the symbols are the same, but you'll notice if you look carefully that quite a lot of them are not the same too. For example, the symbol at the bottom right of the tablet doesn't appear anywhere in the Capriot alphabet.


    Here's a site with some examples of normal Hittite cuneiform writing. It's clearly dissimilar, so I might be very wrong in considering it to originate with them :

    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...n%26safe%3Doff

    It looks a lot like this:



    Here's another example of Hittite script, very different from the other. I think they had two ways of writing: http://www.biblelandpictures.com/gal...&box=&shownew=




    I have to admit I don't see any similarities between these last two and the Newberry tablet, so maybe the Hittites are out.
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  34. #33  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    The Newberry tablet is probably a late-19th or early 20th century hoax. The only scrutiny it's withstood is Barry Fell's, and, as you seem to have discovered, Fell wasn't the most reliable authority on things archaeological.

    The last I knew, it was in the hands of a small museum or historical society in either Michigan or Wisconsin and available for viewing. I'm fascinated by turn-of-the-century hoaxes like this, so it definitely deserves a spot in a museum. These sorts of hoaxes were a genre all their own and included things like Piltodown, the Cardiff Man, the Nampa figure, etc. More recently there was the James Ossuary.

    The script on the Newberry hoax (I think its safe to call it that) isn't Hittite but patterned after a Linear A derivative like Cypriot. This was a well-known script in the 19th and 20th centuries, Schliemann discovered either it by then.

    It was all a matter of economics. Finds like this drew visitors. Visitors (tourists) spend money.

    Edit: I just realized that the picture of the "tablet" above isn't the alleged to be an old photo of the Newberry hoax but rather an example of Cypriot script. The internet is replete with examples of "artifacts" that were once "found" then lost either due to "cover ups" or destroyed, etc. The absence of the object makes it much easier to claim its fantastic origins.

    I'm betting the "Newberry tablet," if it still exists is a broken, illegible hunk of stone or clay without provenience.
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  35. #34  
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    Yes. This has been yet another hard lesson in the reading of conspiracy theory sites. One must either confirm each of their claims separately, or just not read the sites, in order to avoid confusion.

    The worst part is that some of the things they claim are true, and totally confirmable, which just adds to the confusion. Usually, I find the best way to tell the difference is to note how much of a big deal they make of it. They make the biggest deal out of the false details, and tend to mention the true ones only briefly. ......I should totally have seen this Hittite thing coming.........
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