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Thread: My Essay on Black Holes & The Universe

  1. #1 My Essay on Black Holes & The Universe 
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    Hello Science forum! I am Robert, I am 13 years old and I have written this essay about Black Holes and the universe, and how I understand it. Please read it!

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    Black Holes & the Universe
    by Robert Brimmer


    What is a Black Hole? That is the question that many, even in the scientific department ask themselves. I know I ask myself and others this same question. However, due to recent understandings, I believe I may have a very good grasp on what these "black holes" may be. Many claim different things about black holes. Here is my personal input.

    After strolling down the sidewalk many a day ago, I discovered something peculiar. If I dropped a penny on the sidewalk, it stopped on the ground. What made the penny stop, you ask? The pavement. What is the pavement? Concrete. And that's exactly what lies at the end of the universe. Many of my superiors have claimed that the universe is infinite. I beg to differ. If the universe were infinite, we would not be walking on the pavement right now because we would be sucked into an infinite vortex of dimensions. Therefore, there must be an end. But where?

    My first reaction to this question was to experiment using live animals. First, I would take a large box and face it the general way, (closed side down, open side up) and place a cat within the box. The cat does not know that there is a roof above its head because he is in a box. But there is a roof, he just doesn't see it. And that is a long distance for a cat to travel. Therefore he assumes that it is infinite.

    My next experiment would be to place my cat in a room filled with miniature Super Mario plushies. There were 5 in total; Bowser, Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and a Koopa. As I peered through invisible holes in the wall, I watched the cat trek around mindlessly, sometimes paying seconds of attention to each plushie. The peculiar variable of this experiment however was that the cat did not find himself on an extreme end of the room, meaning he did not acknowledge the walls around him. Therefore, I can conclude that planets are a distraction to human beings to the real truth.

    After my experiments, I did some research. My science teacher explained to me that a black hole was mysterious but it sucked things in and minimized them to nothing. I found this peculiar. I decided to do another experiment, using my hand as "the black hole" and a Pokermon DP Battles Gummy Snack as my space vehicle. As my 'space vehicle' made its way to the 'black hole', my hand acted as a vaccum and squeezed the gummy snack as hard as it could. Strangely enough, no matter how hard I squeezed, the gummy snack did not disappear. The peculiar aspect of this is that if I use scaled models like so, it does not work. So how could it work in outer space?

    I fell back on my science class peer, Nathan Edwards. He explained to me the physics of outer space, and I was intrigued. However, the peculiar thing I noticed about his info is that he skirted around the issue of black holes. After directly asking him about black holes, he told me the same information as my science teacher did. This is when I discovered the fault in my logic.

    I realized that black holes DESTROY objects to nothing rather than squeeze them to nothing. It was back to the drawing board.

    Using my little brother's favorite stuffed animal and my real katana sword, I cut up the object. But no matter how many fragments I cut the animal into, it did not essentially disappear. I found this peculiar.

    Confronting Nathan about the issue, he obliged that I was "terribly misinformed about everything". Little does Nathan know I have it all figured out.

    Black holes are merely myths. They do not exist. Do you know of any space stories where astronauts got lost in a black hole? I didn't think so. Due to my experiments, I can safely say that even the concept of black holes is ridiculous. However, there is one issue with my reasoning...

    The birth of stars. Everyone knows that a star is born from traveling gases from the midrange linear system in the northeastern sector of the Milky Way. After these gases collide in the "tornado effect", they form together to make a very hot sphere. But what lies midway? Some say a black hole, and they would be right...
    if it weren't for scientific reasoning.

    Using my cat, gasoline, and two blowdryers, I experimented. Placing my cat between two mounted hair dryers, I began. Turning the blowdryers on at maximum heat/speed, I quickly splattered a generous amount of gasoline between the rays of heat and my cat. Strangely enough, the cat did not 'disappear' or 'transport' to another segment of the room. He simply moved out of the way.

    I rest my case; any object between the "birth of the star" moves out of the way automatically to avoid burns/destruction. This further proves that black holes do not exist.

    I hope you have enjoyed reading my essay on Black holes and the universe and I hope my logic travels with you. I have spent many a year perfecting my theories. When referring to my logic, do refer to it as the "Pynoramal Expersion Theory". Good day gentlemen.
    ------------

    I wrote this during class. This thread is open for debate and comments!


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  3. #2  
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    Good work done!


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    I hope you don't mind criticism though you should expect it, posting something here. The electrons of the concrete repel the electrons of your penny so it does not continue to fall. You give the impression that concrete lies at the end of the universe, so a little rewriting.

    Infinite is a term that can be very awkward but like searching for the highest possible number, there must be something beyond any distance "barrier" we can imagine. However, if space is literally nothing as I believe, only defined by what is in it, then space could be potentially infinite while existing just to the edge of the universe (which lets say could expand indefinitely into it).

    The size of the universe has no affect on the pavement beneath our feet. While 10 or more physical dimensions are believed possible (string theory), we only have evidence for 3 at present.

    Cats have no real concept of time (beyond the next feeding) or of distance (certainly not of infinity). They rely heavily on a sense of smell. The cat has checked out your figurines to see whether they are threatening or good to eat. It has noted your smell on them, so judged them non-threatening. That done, the cat will relax and wait for you to let it out or feed it. Planets are what we presently need to survive. They give us a base from which to learn about the rest of the universe.

    A black hole is caused when a large star has burned most of it's fuel and no longer has sufficient energy from the centre to support the outer shells. Gravity takes over and at near light speed it collapses forming a central mass so compact it has an escape velocity faster than light. As light itself cannot escape, there is an event horizon at the point where this happens and we cannot see beyond it. We do not know what is inside them but can make judgments.

    A black hole does not fade away so the mass is still there in some form. A black hole spins so the mass spins, so not a one dimensional point (singularity). A neutron star has neutrons and a pull of upto 2/3 light speed. There is no reason to believe that a black hole can crush elementary particles (electrons, quarks, etc) so there is probably a spherical core of definite size in the centre of a black hole. Though a black hole stops light, it cannot stop gravity though it travels at the speed of light too, as gravity cannot stop gravity. Magnetic storms whip up infalling particles which have not yet reached the event horizon so causing jets of atomic material to fly away from the black hole at near light speed.

    We can detect very massive spinning objects but there is nothing there visually (like at the centre of spiral galaxies including our own). We can detect accretion disks sending material into these as well as hard radiation being emitted. If something has a surface temperature of maybe a trillion degrees, we would see it effortlessly unless that light is somehow hidden. The escape velocity of an object can be worked out and has been for objects we judge to be black holes where there is sufficient mass in a small enough area that the escape velocity is beyond light speed, so a black hole.

    A black hole is a massive star at the end of it's life and is nothing to do with gases, dust, plasma floating about and colliding in space. Cats do not like the smell of gasoline (lucky you did not set it or yourself alight) so moved.
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    I hope you don't mind criticism though you should expect it, posting something here. The electrons of the concrete repel the electrons of your penny so it does not continue to fall. You give the impression that concrete lies at the end of the universe, so a little rewriting.
    Let's face it, you have no idea about the concrete. What I am saying is that the penny STOPPED. Just like the universe.

    Infinite is a term that can be very awkward but like searching for the highest possible number, there must be something beyond any distance "barrier" we can imagine. However, if space is literally nothing as I believe, only defined by what is in it, then space could be potentially infinite while existing just to the edge of the universe (which lets say could expand indefinitely into it).
    That's like saying "I don't know what's at the end of these woods so it's infinite". Try again, genius.

    The size of the universe has no affect on the pavement beneath our feet. While 10 or more physical dimensions are believed possible (string theory), we only have evidence for 3 at present.
    IT WAS AN ANALOGY

    Cats have no real concept of time (beyond the next feeding) or of distance (certainly not of infinity). They rely heavily on a sense of smell. The cat has checked out your figurines to see whether they are threatening or good to eat. It has noted your smell on them, so judged them non-threatening. That done, the cat will relax and wait for you to let it out or feed it. Planets are what we presently need to survive. They give us a base from which to learn about the rest of the universe.
    Okay, no. I used them as substitutes because obviously I can't take Mars and put in the room. The cat = us, the stuffed animals = planets. We don't aknoloedge the end of the universe because we are too busy exploring planets.

    A black hole is caused when a large star has burned most of it's fuel and no longer has sufficient energy from the centre to support the outer shells. Gravity takes over and at near light speed it collapses forming a central mass so compact it has an escape velocity faster than light. As light itself cannot escape, there is an event horizon at the point where this happens and we cannot see beyond it. We do not know what is inside them but can make judgments.
    Nice theory bucko but I'm pretty sure mine is more rational.

    A black hole does not fade away so the mass is still there in some form. A black hole spins so the mass spins, so not a one dimensional point (singularity). A neutron star has neutrons and a pull of upto 2/3 light speed. There is no reason to believe that a black hole can crush elementary particles (electrons, quarks, etc) so there is probably a spherical core of definite size in the centre of a black hole. Though a black hole stops light, it cannot stop gravity though it travels at the speed of light too, as gravity cannot stop gravity. Magnetic storms whip up infalling particles which have not yet reached the event horizon so causing jets of atomic material to fly away from the black hole at near light speed.
    Black holes apparentl just smash stuff to nothing and I've disproved this with my brothers stuffed animal

    A black hole is a massive star at the end of it's life and is nothing to do with gases, dust, plasma floating about and colliding in space. Cats do not like the smell of gasoline (lucky you did not set it or yourself alight) so moved.
    You're not convincing me, go back to science class. Also the cat moved obviously because it was instinct, just as it is instinct for any object about to eaten by a "black hole" (lol) to move out of the way
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  6. #5  
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    Do different people have different degrees of strength?

    Is there anyone that can squeeze the stuffed animal with more pressure than you did?

    Now, is the strongest human squeeze the strongest force in the universe?

    Please prove this, and then maybe we can consider your theory

    until then, this is text book example of induction
    "Because x doesn't do y, nothing can do y"
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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    First of all, I welcome everyone, who makes up his own mind instead of just believing supposed higher authorities. In this sense, I applaud your attitude and empirical approach. Nevertheless, I do not see, how you can establish a logical connection between the results of your experiments and the questions you wanted answer. As an introduction to this field, I recommend reading this small and comprehensable book which is a standard reference for undergraduates.

    A "Black Hole" is a quite simple concept. Every body that produces gravity has its own escape velocity that is needed to overcome the gravitational attraction, starting from a certain distance from the centre of mass. For the earth it amounts to 11 km/s, and for the sun it is 617.5 km/s. Now, it is an easy calculation, how much mass is needed to reach an escape velocity of the speed of light for a given distance, or vice versa, to what size a given mass must be compressed. The latter quantity is called the Schwarzschild radius, labelled after Karl Schwarzschild. A funny coincidence is that "schwarz" means "black" in German. So, any object with a given mass that is smaller than this radius is a "Black Hole" by definition, because light cannot escape.

    So, theoretically, it is quite easy to comprehend, how this works. But if such objects really exist, is another question. All evidence must come from indirect deduction, because Black Holes cannot be observed directly. This also means that none can look inside a Black Hole and see what the body actually looks like that is producing this gravity with so little space to pack the mass. Are they point-like, or do they have a finite size? Who knows?

    But there are a few very compelling examples in astrophysics - no we are not blocked by planetary research. It is just a very small discipline in astrophysics, although strongly boosted by NASA.

    1. The BH in our Milky Way:
    There is compelling evidence by following the orbits of stars close to the galactic centre. Just like the planets in the solar system, they follow their orbits by interacting with a central mass. From the orbits, you can derive the mass. This mass is confined to such a small volume that no other explanation than a BH is possible with the present knowledge.

    2. Supernovae of very massive stars
    Stellar black holes are configurations of remnants of very massive stars. If something stays in a stable equilibrium depends on the forces that balance out. In a normal star, this is the gravitational pull inward and the radiation pressure outward. When the fusion ends, gravity takes over and leads to a collapse. Less massive stars like the sun end up as a white dwarf, where gravitational force is balanced out by a strange phenomenon called matter degeneracy. The electrons of the residual stellar plasma cannot be compressed infinitely, because this would violate the quantum mechanical Pauli principle. This produces a pressure of the so called "degenerate electron gas". The balance produces the stable object of a white dwarf. Stars of higher mass produce more gravity that may overcome even this force and it combines protons and electrons to neutrons forming neutron stars. This produces a new "neutron degeneracy" producing a stable neutron star (= pulsar). But if the star was even more massive so that gravity can even overcome this force, there is nothing known to date that can prevent a further collapse to volumes that turn the object into a Black Hole. Such massive stars exist, so stellar Black Holes should as well. The best candidate so far is Cygnus X1.

    I'd like to address a few topics you raised:

    What do you mean with your concrete and penny example? Should that be an analogy to a barrier that stops the expansion of the universe? What should that be? Any ideas? Be aware that such a constellation is gravitationally highly unstable.

    You said:
    That's like saying "I don't know what's at the end of these woods so it's infinite". Try again, genius.
    Besides that such an aggressive stance (also noted in some of your other replies) is incompatible with the forum rules, you are wrong. Cyberia's argument is just as valid as yours. I could also reply: "It's like saying 'I do not know, how far the forest extends, but I'm sure it has to end somewhere.'" This is not very convincing either. With the same argument you could deny the spherical form of the earth, because you can only look as far as the horizon.

    I cannot see how your cat/plushies experiment can attribute anything to answering the question. Do you really believe that we cannot investigate the universe, because we are distracted by planetary research? This is ridiculous. This is like saying that doctors cannot heal broken legs, because they are too busy studying the causes of cancer. Just nonsense.

    Okay, I'll stop here for now. I hope, I could help a little bit and trigger a little bit more thinking about that topic.
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    Do different people have different degrees of strength?

    Is there anyone that can squeeze the stuffed animal with more pressure than you did?

    Now, is the strongest human squeeze the strongest force in the universe?

    Please prove this, and then maybe we can consider your theory

    until then, this is text book example of induction
    "Because x doesn't do y, nothing can do y"
    Dude just because you know math equations doesn't mean i'm wrong.

    I can squeeze a stuffed animal pretty hard, hard enough to prove that a black hole is a stupid myth.

    Should that be an analogy to a barrier that stops the expansion of the universe? What should that be?
    Obviously there's just a wall at the end of the universe. if you think something goes on forever you're kidding yourself

    I cannot see how your cat/plushies experiment can attribute anything to answering the question. Do you really believe that we cannot investigate the universe, because we are distracted by planetary research? This is ridiculous. This is like saying that doctors cannot heal broken legs, because they are too busy studying the causes of cancer. Just nonsense.
    but think again plausibly
    all you ever hear is stupid crap about life on mars, jupiters size, pluto isn't a planet, etc. etc.
    i think we should really be directing space ships towards the universe to find out the ending point. the planets are irrellevant compared to this big issue.


    Until one of you smarties builds a black hole in your backyard using YOUR OWN experiments, I am convinced through my extensive research and experimentation that black holes are a lie and a myth to distract the human mind from finding out the truth.
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    Hello everyone;

    I'm new here. For a while I have been laying low, reading, and just trying to educate myself with the information on this site; then I found this thread and I just have to state my opinion.

    First off, I salute you on your bravery to state your opinion and your use of experimentation. Unfortunately, the experiments are not connected to what you are trying to prove and are quite illogical and linear. You are experimenting with a macroscopic, generalistic mindset; the same rules do not apply to concrete as the "edge" of the universe, cats as humans, a chopped up teddy bear as matter being sucked into a black hole (even though I do think that is a worthy proof of the law of conservation of mass), and so on with most of your experiments.

    Do different people have different degrees of strength?

    Is there anyone that can squeeze the stuffed animal with more pressure than you did?

    Now, is the strongest human squeeze the strongest force in the universe?

    Please prove this, and then maybe we can consider your theory

    until then, this is text book example of induction
    "Because x doesn't do y, nothing can do y"
    Dude just because you know math equations doesn't mean i'm wrong.
    Umm... I don't believe that is a math equation, just some common sense.

    Obviously there's just a wall at the end of the universe. if you think something goes on forever you're kidding yourself.
    There is a wall at the end of the universe... wow. It's quite a think to say "end of the universe" and then add a "wall" to boost it. So at the end of the universe we will find a transparent, marble wall surrounding us, watching little alien kids play with the universe like marbles? (MIB reference) I don't believe there is a wall at the edge of the universe, it just seems illogical. Would it make sense if you were strolling through space and you suddenly crash into a random wall? When that happened what would you think? What is the wall made of? Why is the wall here? What is outside of this wall? But also space and time being infinite is just as absurd, the only reason people believe such is because the universe is very complex and mysterious so they think the answer must be complex and mysterious. I don't know what to believe, maybe that space and time loop creating an infinite of the same thing, rather than an infinite that is infinitely infinite or just abruptly stops at the "edge".


    I do not believe planetary research is distracting us from learning about the universe. Fields such as Cosmology are growing larger and our understanding of the universe is become more clear since we have started studying the stars. We are also taking steps in the study and exploration of the universe; we must first explore and understand the area around us (the solar system) before we branch out. We will not understand our universe without understanding what it is comprised of and we certainly cannot go from inventing the airplane to colonizing Alpha Centauri, and we cannot go from colonizing Alpha Centauri to understanding the universe and perceiving the fourth dimension.

    Also, don't feel stupid, your young. Every time I wrote experiment in this post I originally spelled it expirement.

    [EDIT]
    BTW, apparently the LHC has the ability to create miniature black holes, so lets find out.
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    'Dude just because you know math equations doesn't mean i'm wrong."

    I'm sure you know some math equations too. I never said you are wrong. I asked for some common sense answers to common sense problems.

    "I can squeeze a stuffed animal pretty hard, hard enough to prove that a black hole is a stupid myth."

    A: how hard to you squeeze the stuffed animal? "pretty hard" is not a measurement

    B: how hard is "hard enough to prove that a black hole is a stupid myth."
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slamtime32
    Dude just because you know math equations doesn't mean i'm wrong.
    You do not seem to know enough math to prove that you are right.
    Quote Originally Posted by slamtime32
    I can squeeze a stuffed animal pretty hard, hard enough to prove that a black hole is a stupid myth.
    No, you can't. In order to turn the earth into a Black Hole, you would have to compress it to a radius of less than a centimetre. Can you do this? If your toy would weigh 1 kg (I am sure it is less) you would have to compress it to subatomic size; in numbers about one million multiplied with one million times smaller than a proton! Knowing math is sometimes very helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by slamtime32
    Should that be an analogy to a barrier that stops the expansion of the universe? What should that be?
    Obviously there's just a wall at the end of the universe. if you think something goes on forever you're kidding yourself
    That's not an argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by slamtime32
    all you ever hear is stupid crap about life on mars, jupiters size, pluto isn't a planet, etc. etc.
    i think we should really be directing space ships towards the universe to find out the ending point. the planets are irrellevant compared to this big issue.
    Maybe you only listen too much to these messages. I can assure you that it is not true. Solar system research is just a tiny fraction of the entire astrophysical research going on today. I suggest you browse the homepages of a few research institutes to learn more, and not just NASA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slamtime32
    Let's face it, you have no idea about the concrete. What I am saying is that the penny STOPPED. Just like the universe.

    If you don't like criticism, you're going to hate all science forums. Anything not 100% accepted science will be criticised and even 100% accepted science is sometimes criticised. You need to explain your ideas better so someone cannot get the wrong idea.

    That's like saying "I don't know what's at the end of these woods so it's infinite". Try again, genius.

    Read what I wrote again.

    IT WAS AN ANALOGY
    Make it obvious it is an analogy. We get some strange ideas on science forums (mine included) and it is not always easy to differentiate them from analogies, etc.

    Okay, no. I used them as substitutes because obviously I can't take Mars and put in the room. The cat = us, the stuffed animals = planets. We don't aknoloedge the end of the universe because we are too busy exploring planets.

    We can only see a set distance so can only make educated guesses at what is beyond that point.

    Nice theory bucko but I'm pretty sure mine is more rational.
    It is the accepted theory. Why do you believe that yours is true?


    Black holes apparentl just smash stuff to nothing and I've disproved this with my brothers stuffed animal
    We have proof of neutron stars, where all matter has been crushed to neutrons. It seems likely that even more gravity would crush them to fundamental atomic particles after neutrons collapse.

    You're not convincing me, go back to science class. Also the cat moved obviously because it was instinct, just as it is instinct for any object about to eaten by a "black hole" (lol) to move out of the way

    You are just making statements. It would do better if you explain why you think I am wrong. I hope what you believe is not presently taught in science classes.

    Black holes attract things so a lump of rock or even a star is not going to casually move out of it's way, unless sentient with a form of propulsion.
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    Alright listen up Cyberia and the other guy.

    Take the equation of Swarchszild, (~105109 MSun)

    input the amount of radius, and learn something yourselves. it's really simple, my experiments proved everything wrong and you guys are just jealous.

    take this for instance:

    ~0.00110 AU = c (cat) + 3 solar masses SHOULD equal a black hole.

    however, it doesn't. i have tried it.

    have a nice day.
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    A little respect for other members goes along way when others are trying to help you understand the errors in your report
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    Quote Originally Posted by slamtime32
    Alright listen up Cyberia and the other guy.

    it's really simple, my experiments proved everything wrong and you guys are just jealous.

    We know that if you increase the mass of a star, you increase it's escape velocity. A neutron star we can see has an escape velocity of maybe 120,000 mps so if more mass is added, why should not the escape velocity exceed 186,282 so even light cannot escape, so a black hole?
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  16. #15 Re: My Essay on Black Holes & The Universe 
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    Quote Originally Posted by slamtime32
    Using my cat, gasoline, and two blowdryers, I experimented. Placing my cat between two mounted hair dryers, I began. Turning the blowdryers on at maximum heat/speed, I quickly splattered a generous amount of gasoline between the rays of heat and my cat. Strangely enough, the cat did not 'disappear' or 'transport' to another segment of the room. He simply moved out of the way.

    I rest my case; any object between the "birth of the star" moves out of the way automatically to avoid burns/destruction. This further proves that black holes do not exist.
    .... I really really don't get this analogy at all but I'll kick at what I can


    Firstly you seem to be attributing human thoughts to cosmic bodies, planets, rocks and other galactic stuff isn't going to go "bugger theres a star being born here, I'm off" because it doesn't think, quite the reverse, gravitational and magnetic forces will draw it in to the newly created star
    Likewise your cat doesn't go "crap the nutters trying to burn me again with this clever contraption of hairdryers again I'm leaving" it just moves away to escape the annoying wet thing hitting it (the gasoline)

    Also I'm not sure how either of these points prove a black hole's non existance





    Your teacher and nathan are quite obviously wrong as any logical person could see, and you appear to have grasped the basic concept,
    Black holes do not make things dissappear or crush them out of existance, that would be daft, Rather the immense gravity compresses the matter down to an inperceptibly small size, it's considered nothing because the sheer tinyness of it is beyond our comprehension. for example I can tell you our universes current era ends after 100 trillion years (100,000,000,000,000), you can say and read that number, but you can't comprehend it, you have nothing remotely on that scale to compare it with

    if an atom is the size of the planet, the matter of that atom is roughly the size of a football pitch, and a black hole crushes that matter to less than a speck of dirt in size, and a Supermassive Black Hole (supposedly at the centre of all galaxies) would crush it even smaller, it's incomprehensibly small to such an extent people simply refer to the matter as gone,



    the matter can also theoretically be transported through time and to another location because the colossal forces of a black hole are so great it can warp space and time, get an blanket and 4 people to hold it out, if you drop a melon in the center it makes a dent, and dropping oranges around the blanket causes the oranges to roll around the melon, this demonstrates gravity, the gravity of a black hole is so immense it's as though you force something down in the middle of the blanket so hard it stretches the blanket or even tears straight through it
    It's not how many questions you ask, but the answers you get - Booms

    This is the Acadamy of Science! we don't need to 'prove' anything!
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    You conformists must have no life. Here I am, confronting all of you with SOLID PROOF THAT BLACK HOLES DON'T EXIST, and you're taking it and replacing it all with stupid crap that makes no sense.

    THE EQUATION GUYS, USE IT. I PROVIDED YOU WITH VERY VERY SPECIFIC MEASUREMENTS, DATA, AND PROOF.

    If anyone wants to be intelligent and agree with me, I'm right here
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by slamtime32
    If anyone wants to be intelligent and agree with me, I'm right here
    What are we going to do; get together, find some black hole supporters and beat them up?
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