Notices
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moon cy

  1. #1 Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moon cy 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    11
    I have been trying to find info on how dowsing or "witching a well" works. I came across some info that says it way have something to do with our nervous system. Does anyone have any scientific info on the subject? I have done dowsing on a water pipe, so I know it works, just not sure how.

    Also, I am wondering if the nevervous system thing is related to moon cycles. More times than not, I can feel a full moon coming up. Usually up to 4 days before. I get aggitated and unsettled. Usually the day of the full moon is better. Also I work in a care home for the elderly and see the moon cycles effect the way they act.

    Anyone got any info or want to share on the subject?
    Was also wondering if nervous system disorders have been on the rise?

    Thanks, look foreward to your comments.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moo 
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by 3llusion
    I have done dowsing on a water pipe, so I know it works, just not sure how.
    You may be fooling yourself. Despite many claims by professional and amateur dowsers my understanding is that there is no scientific evidence that it is possible. Perhaps some other members will be able to contradict this, but I shall be surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3llusion
    More times than not, I can feel a full moon coming up.
    Given that full moons are wholly regular in their occurence is this surprising. I can wake myself up to a specific time with an error of less than +/- two minutes. You can predict a full moon to within four days. It's not exactly mind shattering, or paradigm shifting.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3llusion
    Also I work in a care home for the elderly and see the moon cycles effect the way they act.
    I beleive you are on more solid ground here. My recollection is that there are conflicting studies in this area, but that certainly some have suggested a change of behaviour around the time of the full moon. I can't readily give any citations.

    Finally, welcome to the forum.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    11
    Thanks for the response and the welcome.

    I have come up with and idea on the dowsing "Water witching" Since it supposidly, can be done with willow branches, I would suspect that it can not be magnetism. However with geo thermal the earth holding the sun's heat and radiating that heat may have an effect "theoretically". Just think of the heat waves you see off of a road in the desert. I am wondering if something in the ground may interupt that thermal radiation and that is what we are picking up on? Maybe water expells heat more, so over top of it you would have less radiation?

    Any thoughts?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by 3llusion
    Any thoughts?
    To repeat, I don't think it is real. The only serious study I know of was arguably shown to be inadequate here.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,564
    This should be in Pseudo, tbh.

    Dowsing "works" via ideomotor motion. That is to say, it does not work. If it did, it might actually be useful. But it has been tested, and it does not work.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    11
    It is wierd you would move like that. Maybe that is what happened when I tried it. When I tried it I do not believe in hocus pocus and did not think it would work. That is why I was surprised when it did.

    I would like to see the experement done a little different then I saw on you tube. I looked at the you tube videos and see they are all in covered areas and the item is in a box. And the item is fairly small. I would like to see a dowser find a pipe underground using conventional methods. (weather he knows where the pipe is or not) then showing it works with him( or maybe a few more just to be sure) once we see it works with all the people have a new set that have no ideas where the pipe is, find it.

    If they can't well then all the settings are like they would be in the field, and there is no way it can be true.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7 Dowsing: It does work, I can do it and I can do it well. 
    Ian
    Ian is offline
    New Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3
    I am one who can use an ‘L’ shaped bent piece of wire and locates not only water but what depth it will be found at and also the GPM it will provide. If that is not enough I am capable of locating virtually anything.

    I can locate graves of past pets that have been buried so long there is no trace of the site to be seen and with enough years having passed to not be able to remember more than the general area. I can pick out each individual grave and pet in it by name.

    I can walk over a pet’s grave and think dead pet and no matter which I walk over I will get a response but when I think the pet’s name I only get a response over the correct grave.

    Those make sense to me based on things I have read but I can also locate things that are not really under the ground itself.

    I can think property line and I can locate a property line. I live on a manmade lake and the top of the dam is 320’ above sea level. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers owns all the land around the lake up to the 320’ above sea level line and I can find the 320’ line with my bent wire. I have confirmed that I was correct by using a GPS that also tells where someone is in relation to sea level.

    I can see how something that exists like water or a septic line or tank, like I have also located for people before, and other actual existing things could be detected but how can it be explained that things like property lines can be detected?

    There is no physical object, there is only a line on a map and stakes at the corners of lots but I can walk right in the middle of the line as far away from any stakes as can be gotten and I will detect the property line.

    I have had my eyes covered and had someone lead me around and turn me in circles and then point me in the direction I needed to go but by then had no idea of how many steps away I might be from the property line so I could not be influencing it by my hand thinking I must have taken the correct amount of steps by then for my hand to cause the wire to move.

    Can you explain how something that is not real, as in something actually being underground like a wire running along the property line, can be detected like I can detect it? If so please explain that one to me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    People sometimes hired dowsers where I grew up, for deciding where to dig a water well. Now, something's going on there, right off from the start that's worth noticing: The customer is probably new to the area, while the dowser is probably an old timer who's tramped around through every yard and knows that country like the back of his hand. So the dowser has this enormous inarticulate store of experience, that produces intuitions.

    The dowser doesn't think consciously about why the trees grow a certain way or why an outcropping slopes at a particular angle. In fact he might do better, as in billiards, if he didn't think too hard about these things. He might do better with his conscious thoughts preoccupied by willow branch. Let intuition take over.

    That's how I see it, and I wouldn't be ashamed to hire a dowser on those terms.


    An aside: In my city most houses from the first building boom are now having drainage problems. The storm runoff pipes, which circle a house before heading out to the street rainwater connection, are all collapsing, and clogged by tree roots. You can "dowse" these properties just by driving down the street and looking at the boulevard trees. All same-species trees planted at the same time, yet some are getting an unusual amount of water, judging by their height. I think that if I were in the business of fixing drain lines, I might protect my trade secret.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Ian
    Ian is offline
    New Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    People sometimes hired dowsers where I grew up, for deciding where to dig a water well. Now, something's going on there, right off from the start that's worth noticing: The customer is probably new to the area, while the dowser is probably an old timer who's tramped around through every yard and knows that country like the back of his hand. So the dowser has this enormous inarticulate store of experience, that produces intuitions.


    I cannot speak for anyone else who has the same or a similar ability as I do but at least in my case lacking a specific thought and only that specific thought I can and will walk right over anything and not receive any sort of reaction or response.

    If say dogs are barking and playing in the area or people are there with me and talking it can and will break my concentration and again I can and will walk right over something, even something that I had previously found and even if I have my eyes open and are looking at the stake I place in the ground to mark where I had already located something and I will not have/receive any sort of response or reaction from the ‘L’ shaped piece of wire I dowse with.

    A specific thought and clear concentration are key, at least in my case. Lacking both I might as well not even bother attempting to locate anything but with them I have not as of yet been unable to locate anything I have attempted to locate regardless of its location.

    Those who claim to be experts call it “programming” whatever the person is using, a ‘Y’ shaped piece of willow or as in my case an ‘L’ shaped piece of wire.

    While it is only my opinion I tend to believe what is actually being “programmed” is the dowser’s mind/brain stimulating and focusing their ability to locate things and whatever they use to dowse with is nothing more than say an ‘antenna or a psychic radar or sonar array to transmit and direct their thoughts and then receive any response that then would cause a physical reaction in their dowsing tool.

    I can see and understand your point about “old timers” who might or would know the area like the back of their hand due to having lived there since dirt was new having some extra or additional insight that might influence them but in my case I have been able to accurately dowse in areas I had just moved to and knew little to nothing about and also when asked to come to some other location I knew nothing at all about and had never been to before.

    Shortly after moving to my home, roughly 1000 miles from where I had previously lived and an area I had never been to previous to picking and purchasing my home, one day I experienced what most might call a brownout. What happened is that one phase of my electric service/one line has corroded through an old repaired cut. I called the power company and then decided to humor myself and see if I could find and track my power lines. (They are all underground where I live, there are no poles with lines leading underground for me to even use as a starting point.)

    I located what I felt sure was the electricity line and oddly enough it seemed to split in the middle of my yard and one part headed towards my neighbor’s house. I followed the part heading towards my electric meter and once I had the entire line staked out I then looked for what I had been told was likely a cut/break.

    I located it but I also picked up something else and then determined that it had to be my telephone line and I marked it also.

    When the men from the power company arrived they pulled out their electronic line finder and traced the line and it followed precisely what I has already staked out. They were puzzled though why the line seemed to split at one point and head to my neighbor’s house. They said it is normal practice for each home’s line to enter each individual piece of property and not have one line split to service two homes through one piece of property. They checked their records and sure enough that is how the original lines were laid here.

    They found the break, almost exactly where I had it marked. Before they began to dig I said the other stake I had put in the ground was my telephone line and if they dug where they were about to dig they would cut it but if they dug where I marked the electric line problem they would find it and not cut my line. The one operating the high tech electronic tester said it did not pick up any other wires in the area so it was safe to dig there without risk of cutting my telephone line.

    They chuckled at me a bit and began to dig where their high tech electronic tester told them they were directly over the break/problem and where nothing else had been found by them.

    As I predicted they cut my telephone line and when they got to the depth of the electric line they could just see the edge of it and had to expand the hole slightly in the direction I had told them they needed to move to miss my telephone line and find the problem and then they did find the line and it turned out to be a corroded past repair that left my house with single phase service instead of double phase service.

    My ‘L’ shaped piece of wire and my mind turned out to be more accurate than their high tech electronic tester. How? Why?

    I will not claim to even being able to begin to understand why I can do what I can so. I keep telling myself there is a perfectly logical explanation for it, as in say natural electrical or magnetic fields, but then how could one explain my being able to find not only property lines but as in the case of the lake I live on the 320’ above sea level line when it is not anywhere close to being accurately marked.

    The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers performed a straight line survey where all the highest points, those farthest from what is considered to be average pool, 299.5’ above sea level, so in most places what the Corps claims is the 320’ above sea level line is in fact well above that due to the rise in the ground between chosen points used to mark lines on their maps.

    I do not see how there could possibly be anything whatsoever underground along property lines or specific levels in relation to sea level that are in woods that would or could be explained away by claiming an electric or magnetic field that could be picked up by a dowser or their possibly knowing the area, which is rather uneven, so well that blindfolded they would be capable of detecting and stopping right on a property line or the 320’ above seal level mark.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10 Re: Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moo 
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    It's unfortunate the people so quickly discount personal experience as a valid source of information. If a gift occurs infrequently enough, then there's no easy way for the people who have it to meet with each other and compare notes. Many of them will go mad because of the inability to share their experiences, or opt to keep the whole thing secret so as to avoid ridicule, further reducing the number of others with whom notes can be reliably compared. And added to that there will be fakers, who give false positives.

    I've started experimenting with precognition at a local casino. I'm being careful because I don't want to get thrown out, but I figure that if I can consistently win slightly more than I bring in with me on every visit, that might confirm some things. Then I'll feel a little bit less crazy. Of course, I've only messed with Blackjack so far, so in theory I might be counting the cards subconsciously.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    Quote Originally Posted by 3llusion
    Also I work in a care home for the elderly and see the moon cycles effect the way they act.
    I beleive you are on more solid ground here. My recollection is that there are conflicting studies in this area, but that certainly some have suggested a change of behaviour around the time of the full moon. I can't readily give any citations.

    Finally, welcome to the forum.
    There's no reason our biology wouldn't evolve to keep time with something like this, given that the Moon has existed throughout the entire history of human evolution. It's part of the environment that selected our characteristics.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3llusion
    Thanks for the response and the welcome.

    I have come up with and idea on the dowsing "Water witching" Since it supposidly, can be done with willow branches, I would suspect that it can not be magnetism. However with geo thermal the earth holding the sun's heat and radiating that heat may have an effect "theoretically". Just think of the heat waves you see off of a road in the desert. I am wondering if something in the ground may interupt that thermal radiation and that is what we are picking up on? Maybe water expells heat more, so over top of it you would have less radiation?

    Any thoughts?
    Maybe there's a third feature of the terrain that determines the likelihood of an underground well forming, and which is directly detectible in some way. So you're not detecting the water. You're detecting the thing that caused the water.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11 Re: Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moo 
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Dowsers traditionally employ a forked green willow branch. This is picked from a willow tree. Willows grow in moist soil, and can tolerate waterlogged subsoil that would kill most trees. Think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Maybe there's a third feature of the terrain that determines the likelihood of an underground well forming, and which is directly detectible in some way. So you're not detecting the water. You're detecting the thing that caused the water.
    Besides trees there's landscape yeah. I think that humans have a better understanding of landscape than we're conscious of. For example you, in the landscape you're familiar with, can see a ridge and "sense" what's beyond it. But that's no more sensory than sensing a good move in chess - it's just too many fuzzy-logic calculations to explain.

    A modern analogy to dowsing could be locating products in a mall. One can "sense" where to find particular shops and where to find products in those shops. This is without reading a directory or asking clerks where they they keep the laundry soap. It's a combination of experience and many slightly calculable observations.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12 Re: Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moo 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    Quote Originally Posted by 3llusion
    Also I work in a care home for the elderly and see the moon cycles effect the way they act.
    I beleive you are on more solid ground here. My recollection is that there are conflicting studies in this area, but that certainly some have suggested a change of behaviour around the time of the full moon. I can't readily give any citations.
    I can give you the citations: Pokorny (1964), Pokorny and Jachimczyk (1974), Rotton and Kelly (1984), and Sanduleak (1985). Each of these studies set out to find a correlation between lunar cycles and behavior. They found none.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    It's unfortunate the people so quickly discount personal experience as a valid source of information. If a gift occurs infrequently enough, then there's no easy way for the people who have it to meet with each other and compare notes.
    Personal experience comes with the baggage of human fallacy, superstition, delusion, and grandiosity among others. In every single study or investigation of dowsers ever done (and there have been a great many), not a single properly methodical one has demonstrated results better than chance. A rather large study (Ongly 1948) shows a few things: 1) it was demonstrated nonsense over 50 years ago; 2) out of 58 or so participants, not a single one did better than chance.

    People who claim they are "dowsers" are very probably either frauds, hucksters, or deluded. They always remember their "successes" and conveniently forget their "misses."

    References:

    Ongly, P. (1948). New Zealand Diviners. New Zealand Journal of Science and Technology, 30, 38-54.

    Pokorny, A.D. (1964). Moon phases, suicide and homicide. American Journal of Psychiatry, 121, 66-67.

    Pokorny, A.D. and J. Jachimczyk (1974). The questionable relationship between homicides and the lunar cycle. American Journal of Psychiatry, 131, 827-829.

    Rotton, J. and I.W. Kelly (1984). Much ado about the full moon: a meta-analysis of the lunar-lunacy research. Psychological Bulletin, 97, 286-306.

    Sanduleak, N. (1984). "The moon is acquitted of murder in Cleveland," in Science Confronts the Paranormal, K. Frazier (ed.). Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13 Re: Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moo 
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    not a single properly methodical one has demonstrated results better than chance.
    I'd argue that the experiments remove unacknowledged factors which aid successful dowsing in the field. I think what they are testing is the most gaudy claims, completely removed from context. The results may be quite different if they tested local water-witches' success rate at guessing groundwater, vs. well siting professionals who come from out of town with ground radar or equally dubious gimmicks.

    I'm saying that just because many dowsers hold silly beliefs about their lucky charms and "sense", and you can prove those beliefs wrong in barn experiment with water pipes, does not prove aquifer dowsing in native terrain yields only random success.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Junior Finger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    266
    More recently, at this year's Amazing Meeting, a woman by the name of Connie Sonne attempted to demonstrate dowsing in order to win James Randi's Million Dollar Challange.

    Here is part one of the entire test, but I'll sum it up for you and say that she failed.
    Artist for Red Oasis.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15 Re: Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moo 
    Forum Junior Finger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    266
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I'd argue that the experiments remove unacknowledged factors which aid successful dowsing in the field.
    Every single person who has ever claimed the existence of the supernatural has made that exact statement whenever their preferred magical powers are put to the test. Again, there is every indication that "successful" dowsing is a simple matter of counting hits and not misses.
    Artist for Red Oasis.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    I understand what you're saying and I agree with you. However I think you've missed insights in your zeal to prove pseudoscience wrong. Please read my posts above.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17 Re: Dowsing "Witching a well", nervous system, moo 
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    Yeah. I think Pong is discussing the cardsharp who wins at Blackjack because they count cards, not a card mechanic/huckster who actually rigs the deck, nor a genuine psychic who knows what the next card is by pure divination.

    There are three kinds of players here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker

    Personal experience comes with the baggage of human fallacy, superstition, delusion, and grandiosity among others. In every single study or investigation of dowsers ever done (and there have been a great many), not a single properly methodical one has demonstrated results better than chance. A rather large study (Ongly 1948) shows a few things: 1) it was demonstrated nonsense over 50 years ago; 2) out of 58 or so participants, not a single one did better than chance.
    I admit these things are true, but does evidence have to be an all or nothing type of thing? If it's not infinity reliable, do we have to immediately assign it a truth value of absolute zero?

    I'm more comfortable allowing for some gray areas. I wouldn't trust it as the foundation for a fully sprung scientific theory, but I'm a curious enough person to want to keep looking into something as long as any evidence exists for it at all, until I find compelling evidence against, or run out of pathways to inquire into.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Ian
    Ian is offline
    New Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3
    I can add to the list of things I am able to find or sense dowsing. Recently I found that I can locate property lines and that one makes no sense at all to me. Much of what I have read and been told said dowsing picks up energy, water has energy, electric lines of course have energy, I can locate graves and tell if it is a male or a female or like with graves of past pets I can locate them and pick them out by name even though it has been as much as 22 years since some were buried and there is no way I can just walk to the area and know after this many years where eac of many pets have been buried. I can only remember the general area but not actual locations.

    To make it even more amazing is my neighbor believes her house is ‘haunted.’ The list of things they have seen would make most people say they are insane or lying but they contacted a paranormal group in the area and the night they came I went over and talked with them a while and told them what I can do. They asked if I would be comfortable joining them so I got my dowsing rod and played junior ghostbuster.

    My neighbors had said what rooms the most activity happens in so some might believe because I knew that it might cause me to have some sort of reading or reaction there but it only happened when I thought certain thoughts .. and they were not good ones, not ones I would want reactions to in my home.

    One of the neighbors told me how one night a few nights before the group came to investigate her house she woke up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. In the hall going to the bathroom she claimed she saw what looked like a white gate. She was somewhat freaked but between having seen so many things and many of them very frightening she had become somewhat used to things and needing to pee so bad she raced through it and said it was gone when she came back from the bathroom.

    Other than saying she saw it in the hall I did not know where. I used my dowsing rod and thought white gate and each time I got to a certain point the rod would turn. A couple days later I returned and tried it again with her there, without her giving me any idea of where she said she saw it and each time I reached the same point my dowsing rod would turn and it was i nthe same place it turned the night the paranormal group was there. She said that was exactly where she saw the white gate.

    What makes it more interesting or amazing is while the paranormal team was there they placed a meter that reads electronegative fields where I had been sensing the white gate and after one of them said give us a sign that you are here the meter went off and beeped for about 10 seconds and the needle on the scale was pegged and then it slowly got quieter and the needle dropped until it hit zero and the sound stopped.

    That was one of three anomalies recorded that night not counting what I picked up dowsing, the others were picked up using video equipment and visually seen by us on video, and recorded on video, and then there was also two knocks that were clearly heard after one of the team said knock on a wall or a window.

    Many people say dowsing does not work, that it can not be done but I know for a fact that I can do it and I can locate things that most explanations for how dowsing works does not explain, like locating property lines.

    If dowsing was connected to any type of energy field, even residual energy from the dead, which I am not saying happens, a property line would not have any energy field. It is nothing more than a line drawn on a map sitting in some County Office and metal stakes in the ground at corners or turns in the property line, but I do not need to find the stakes, which I can also find. I can find the line right in the middle as far from any metal stake as you could get.

    If someone can explain that one to me please do.

    Just saying that dowsing only seems to work because people count hits and not misses is simply discounting that what might be called misses are only the dowser having not ‘programmed’ their mind or dowsing tool properly, they were thinking the wrong thought at the time.

    If a dowser just thinks water in many areas they will get reading after reading or reaction after reaction, or whatever you want to call them but if they then go over the same area and think fresh water they might not get a reaction and as has been the case with me a few times when I had walked over a septic line or a septic tank. It was still water, just not fresh water.

    The more you can define your thoughts the more you can find but first you need to think broad and then fine tune and fine tune thought after thought on each pass and if you have the ability you can find virtually anything by doing that.

    I can find fresh water, find out at what depth it is at and how many gallons per minute it will pump if drilled and so far I have been very accurate doing that. If someone says they want 50gpm from a well if that amount of water is under their property and if I walk over it I will sense it and then I keep going over the same location thinking different depths and when I am very close to what it actually is my dowsing rod will turn, and again I have been very accurate doing that.

    So if something could be called a miss it would be a case of just missing the right spot. Anything else would just be the dowser not thinking the right thought or not thinking a defined enough thought and that is not actually a miss, that is a programming error, so to speak.

    If your mind is focused on the wrong thing no matter how many times you go over any certain area you will not have any reaction at all but if focused on the right thing nothing can not be found if it is there. It will be located and it will be located very accurately.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1
    I know that this is actually true i know people who have the ability to find water this way. My dad being one, he found our neighbors water box without knowing where it was located.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    It was a decent guess. Nothing more.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •