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Thread: 1300C (pseudo)

  1. #1  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYPOWERLIFTER
    I guess I fail to grasp the relevance. The 'element' will be insulated by a kaowool ceramic insulated blanket and the wire should in no way "break". Did you read the relevant passage from the wonderful book that I referenced? It makes it all very clear, I am not re-inventing the wheel. I am trying to craft a tube furnace precisely as they have been used in labs for decades.

    The beginning of your last paragraph seems to be insulting? I could easily point out to you that the way I have described has worked often and that I thought everyone here knew that, as it's not difficult to find numerous examples of them via google. I'm not clear why you would want to insult my admittedly limited knowledge but to do so by ignoring the tens of thousands of tube furnaces that have been produced by lab equipment suppliers seems strange.

    Sure, I posted a query as to materials and suggestions as to overbuilding as well as a question as to thermocouples, etc. but I am not interested in a kiln and if I were I could craft one... using refractory material and an iron pail with a second one to provide a downdraft, and MAPP gas as source of heat.
    I meant no insult to you. On the contrary I was highlighting that no one seems to know this stuff. It used to be the first thing you learned in heating elements.
    In the field of electricity there are more little tricks to using certain name brand electrical components then there are standards.

    I just assumed that everyone knew that when a wire breaks, up goes the voltage. I am just realizing that many do not understand basic electricity. And I am not talking about you in particular. I am talking about everyone here that does not understand what happens when a break in a wire occurs. And it ARC's. It is something that good welders know well. And learn early.

    What I said is totally and technically accurate. Anyone planing to build an electrical device, should understand that. When A wire breaks the voltage goes way up.

    If you understand, that when the element breaks, it will create a voltage spike, and the duration and extent of the spike may be severe. That is all I care about. That I have mentioned it to you. I do not care what you do after I do my duty.

    I have watched electrical elements meltdown. Sometimes they go quietly, sometimes they go violently. Explosively. That is all I wanted to mention. When they go they can melt points/relays trying to disengage them. Because the voltage is high. And the frequency is great. The current can jump gaps.

    If you take a look at the high frequency initiating system on a TIG welder, and take a look at what it's purpose is. And how it works. You will instantly understand what I am saying.

    A single break can cause high frequency and high voltage. A double break, can cause severe high frequency, more then enough to block cellular telephone communication.

    When elements go they can often break in more then one spot.

    That is 90 volts being supplied to the wire. With a maximum of 400 amps.

    Common Square "D" twenty amp circuit breakers are often printed right on the front of the breaker. With the statement. Maximum throughput 75,000 amps. I have worked on heating equipment in different parts of the country. I know this is so.



    This is a set of points that creates the high frequency from ordinary 220 volt single phase power.



    Nothing I am saying or showing, is even slightly off base or out of line or off topic. You should be aware of all these things before you hook up heating elements.

    You should also know that some elements will not take out fast acting fuses. Because they lower in amperage as they get hot.

    I am not accusing you of anything. I am busting these guys chops for not knowing it. Like the back of their hand. Ha-ha.

    I am not saying that your device is unsafe. I am not saying it is safe. I am saying that whenever you are dealing with composites, they can crack or fail. They can disintegrate. And leave your element exposed or allow it to fall, or come in contact with some other object.

    I have done this for many years now. And I have seen it all. Stuff that some would not believe.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick


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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    What I said is totally and technically accurate. Anyone planing to build an electrical device, should understand that. When A wire breaks the voltage goes way up.
    That is incorrect, William. What you are probably thinking of is that when you interrupt a circuit containing inductance, there is a voltage due to the rapidly changing current through the inductor (V=L di/dt). That would not apply to the resistive heater which was the subject of the original message on which this was posted. Therefore your post was misleading and of no use to the OP.

    In the future please only post information for which you have a scientific basis. It is not sufficient to say "everybody should know this" or "Joe Schmo the navy technician taught me this." All unsupported statements will go to pseudo or trash.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    What I said is totally and technically accurate. Anyone planing to build an electrical device, should understand that. When A wire breaks the voltage goes way up.
    That is incorrect, William. What you are probably thinking of is that when you interrupt a circuit containing inductance, there is a voltage due to the rapidly changing current through the inductor (V=L di/dt). That would not apply to the resistive heater which was the subject of the original message on which this was posted. Therefore your post was misleading and of no use to the OP.

    In the future please only post information for which you have a scientific basis. It is not sufficient to say "everybody should know this" or "Joe Schmo the navy technician taught me this." All unsupported statements will go to pseudo or trash.

    OK, if I show you a believable test with an elemental load, like a light bulb blowing or a piece of wire blowing, and the voltage going up. Even though the stable source voltage maintains a rather stable voltage. Will you put my stuff back?


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    OK, if I show you a believable test with an elemental load, like a light bulb blowing or a piece of wire blowing, and the voltage going up. Even though the stable source voltage maintains a rather stable voltage. Will you put my stuff back?
    It all depends. Let's see what you've got.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    OK, if I show you a believable test with an elemental load, like a light bulb blowing or a piece of wire blowing, and the voltage going up. Even though the stable source voltage maintains a rather stable voltage. Will you put my stuff back?
    It all depends. Let's see what you've got.
    Even if William is correct or incorrect. You Harold, have the patience of a Saint. Well, someone really patient anyway if you don't like that term
    The cake is a lie. I saw it, but it was not really there and merley a trick of the mind...

    If people of the world acted together to make it a harmonous world. We wouldn't need to wait 2000 years for a messiah; we'd save it less than 24 hours...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    OK, if I show you a believable test with an elemental load, like a light bulb blowing or a piece of wire blowing, and the voltage going up. Even though the stable source voltage maintains a rather stable voltage. Will you put my stuff back?
    It all depends. Let's see what you've got.
    Even if William is correct or incorrect. You Harold, have the patience of a Saint. Well, someone really patient anyway if you don't like that term
    There are (off the top of my head), Three cases where, a voltage can (appear to)rise substantially when a connection is broken, the first is where the voltage of an inductor is measured whilst the supply is removed (thus a collapse of the magnetic field causes a a voltage to be induced).

    THe second is along the lines of measuring the voltage across a series connected load (say like a christmas tree light) where there maybe 10 24volt bulbs in series. Whilst the lights are all connected each bulb will measure about 24volts (European mains) but if a blows, the voltage across it's pins will rise to the full supply voltage.

    The third is where a generator is under an unusually heavy load and slows down to a point where the supplied voltage and drawn current now match the mechanical power supplied (allowing for system losses). Removing the load will then allow the generator to return to it's full operating power and thus the voltage will rise.

    I have not read all of these threads so apologies if these have already been pointed out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick
    OK, if I show you a believable test with an elemental load, like a light bulb blowing or a piece of wire blowing, and the voltage going up. Even though the stable source voltage maintains a rather stable voltage. Will you put my stuff back?
    It all depends. Let's see what you've got.
    Even if William is correct or incorrect. You Harold, have the patience of a Saint. Well, someone really patient anyway if you don't like that term
    There are (off the top of my head), Three cases where, a voltage can (appear to)rise substantially when a connection is broken, the first is where the voltage of an inductor is measured whilst the supply is removed (thus a collapse of the magnetic field causes a a voltage to be induced).

    THe second is along the lines of measuring the voltage across a series connected load (say like a christmas tree light) where there maybe 10 24volt bulbs in series. Whilst the lights are all connected each bulb will measure about 24volts (European mains) but if a blows, the voltage across it's pins will rise to the full supply voltage.

    The third is where a generator is under an unusually heavy load and slows down to a point where the supplied voltage and drawn current now match the mechanical power supplied (allowing for system losses). Removing the load will then allow the generator to return to it's full operating power and thus the voltage will rise.

    I have not read all of these threads so apologies if these have already been pointed out.
    The basis for any of that happening is ARC. I know from watching loads disconnected with solid state TRIAC's that, there is no big return spike. But if I physically disconnect the, the wire from the terminal, I get a high voltage spark. Sometimes a devise will hit me right through dielectric materials.

    The term I was taught was, (Anode, Rectified, Cathode), it meant that when you disconnect a wire from a terminal. That the current wishes to continue to flow. However as you pull the wire away, the air cannot conduct that much current. So you get a bottle neck at the surface of the molten conductor, being bombarded by the power supply voltage.

    This often sends electrons back against the original flow of electrons. Welders know this so well, because they watch it everyday.

    This creating a very powerful shortage of electrons under the molten surface of the terminal being bombarded. Once you reach the source voltages diode break point. Usually the source output voltage. The (Anode, Rectified, Cathode) is broken or shut off, once you move the wire far enough away from the terminal.

    From my experience though, if your source voltage is allowed to escalate, there is not way to pull back far enough to shut it off.

    Kind of like voltage escalating "V" effects.

    A lot of people do not know there are two different types of heaters out there. The kind that have a high starting amperage and lower in amps as they heat up. Often many times less amperage is used once they get hot.

    And that there are heaters that do not lose their ohms, and maintain the same ohms even when hot.

    The radiant heaters often are of this kind. And they can smack you. They can send nice spikes back.

    The other kind are rather dead.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
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    William, what you just wrote is what we call "wooga-wooga." You don't really know what causes it. You give it a name "anode, rectified, cathode." That doesn't mean squat. You might as well say "When I pull the wire away, the great god Thor casts sparks from the metal."
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    I think the pseudoscience sub-forum should be renamed 'Entertainment Alley'. This is better than the Oscars.
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    Who are you?
    The cake is a lie. I saw it, but it was not really there and merley a trick of the mind...

    If people of the world acted together to make it a harmonous world. We wouldn't need to wait 2000 years for a messiah; we'd save it less than 24 hours...
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    This is like watching matter and anti-matter collide, entertaining !
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    Whether you like his terminology or not, the phenomenon McCormick is attempting to identify may be worth discussing.

    The thing about electricity is that it's understood within the range of applications that it has been successfully been applied to, up to the point where serious mathematics can be applied with success, but ............. in the end........ it is a quantum effect, especially AC electricity.


    Just as the field of optics isn't going to quit training people just because a few quantum physicists discover that a few very special experiments can be conducted where the light's behavior will defy all common sense, so also anomalies might be observed in electricity that have no explanation within accepted electrical theories. That is actually no reason at all to doubt their existence.

    AC electricity, for all intents and purposes, does behave a lot like light. It's a wave traveling through a medium at a known fraction of C.


    Anecdotally:

    I notice that this particular monitor I use with my computer will stop working if I hook it up to the same circuit as my space heater. I have no idea why. Sometimes it stops working when the main heater for the house is on the same circuit too. Changing circuits always fixes the problem instantly.


    As to the rest: (And I'm totally just guessing)

    Is it possible that the effect is due to a thermal couple effect? If a wire breaks because it gets too hot at one point, then the temperature difference will probably involve a voltage difference too, no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Whether you like his terminology or not, the phenomenon McCormick is attempting to identify may be worth discussing.
    It is worth discussing in a scientific manner. That's not what McC does. There is NO science of Anode, Rectified, Cathode. You will not find it in a textbook, which McC admits. There are no equations that define it. It's a figment of McC's imagination.

    Anecdotally:

    I notice that this particular monitor I use with my computer will stop working if I hook it up to the same circuit as my space heater. I have no idea why. Sometimes it stops working when the main heater for the house is on the same circuit too. Changing circuits always fixes the problem instantly.
    No mystery there. The heater draws current in the circuit, which causes a voltage drop through the wiring, which results in insufficient voltage to your computer. Take a voltmeter and measure it.
    You might have a high resistance connection. That could cause a fire. Better have it checked out.

    As to the rest: (And I'm totally just guessing)
    There are no phenomena described here that require any guessing, other than guessing how McC configured his test circuit. It's really garden variety electrical theory.
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    Yeah, I might be charging at wind mills. It could be that McCormick isn't seeing anything that would be strange if we knew the setup of all the circuits. Otherwise, it could be that he is seeing something interesting, and unable to articulate it effectively.

    So, .... now that it's in pseudo, we can quit ridiculing him and just let him talk if he wants to, and try to sort out what, exactly, is happening that leads him to believe that he's seeing an ARC.

    As far as the term ARC: Wouldn't "Anode, Rectified, Cathode" imply that the frequency of AC power between the Anode, and the Cathode is different, and something is Rectifying that difference? That's the way I understand those three words. I'm pretty sure ARC welding is something else entirely.


    Still, if he's seeing something interesting, and seeing it consistently, then who really cares what he calls it, or what theory he thinks (wrongly) can explain it? Let's see if the observations themselves are of genuine interest, or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax

    As far as the term ARC: Wouldn't "Anode, Rectified, Cathode" imply that the frequency of AC power between the Anode, and the Cathode is different, and something is Rectifying that difference? That's the way I understand those three words.
    A rectifier is a device used to restrict the flow of electricity to one direction. Put a single rectifier in series of an AC circuit and you get just half of the AC cycle or pulsed DC. (Place 4 rectifiers in an arrangement called a Wheatstone bridge and you get a bridge rectifier, which salvages the other half of the cycle)

    Rectifiers(Along with filters and voltage regulators) are used commonly when you want to convert an AC voltage supply to DC voltage for electronic devices.

    Another name for a rectifier is a diode, which has an anode and cathode (thus Di-ode).

    But breaking an electrical connection will not produce a rectifying effect.

    There is such a thing as a cat's whisker diode which is made by lightly resting a thin wire on a semiconducting crystal (Old radios used to use them), but contact and the crystal are both needed.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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    So, what happens when you suddenly break an AC connection? If you've got a wave of AC electricity traveling down the wire, and it suddenly encounters a break, what happens next?


    Does it turn around and go back? Does it convert into a radio wave and radiate out into space/the air? If the wave is never emitted in the first place, we might have an interesting question of causality. I never seem to get a straight answer to this question.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    So, what happens when you suddenly break an AC connection? If you've got a wave of AC electricity traveling down the wire, and it suddenly encounters a break, what happens next?


    Does it turn around and go back? Does it convert into a radio wave and radiate out into space/the air? If the wave is never emitted in the first place, we might have an interesting question of causality. I never seem to get a straight answer to this question.
    The problem is that your conceptualization of AC current being a wave traveling down the wire isn't accurate. AC current is just current that alternates direction.

    Here's a simple analogy:

    Take a length of tubing. Wrap it into a circle so that ends are a little bit apart. Put a tight fitting piston in both ends and connect them together. (so that if you push one piston further into one end, the other piston comes further out of its end. Fill the tube with water.

    Start moving the pistons back and forth. The water will move one way and then the other in the tube.

    Replace the tube with a conductor, the water with free electrons and the pistons with an voltage source of alternating polarity, and you have AC current.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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    Adding to what Janus wrote, if you suddenly stop the flow of water in a pipe, such as by rapidly closing a valve, the force can become quite high. This is called water hammer and can be strong enough to rip large pipes off the wall. It is because the flowing water has mass, momentum and kinetic energy. The force required to stop it is proportional to the mass and rate of deceleration.

    The electrons iin a wire hardly weigh anything, and are quite easy to stop, unless there is inductance in the circuit. In the force-voltage mechanical analog, inductance is like mass and voltage is like force. So, interrupting a circuit with lots of inductance is like stopping the flow of lots of water in a pipe. The voltage goes up rapidly. That's what makes the sparks, not some pool of molten metal like McC believes.
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  20. #19  
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    Lol. Why didn't you say so in the first place? That's a perfect explanation for the phenomena McCormick observed.
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