Notices
Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Ying Yang theory

  1. #1  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith

    Along similar lines, however, is the kin selection theory - it has been shown that younger brothers are more likely to be homosexual if the majority of their older siblings are male. This means that there is already high competition between the male siblings, and at this point it is more advantageous for the younger brother to aid his siblings in their reproduction rather than to attempt his own.
    What if we pretended we had open minds and considered an alternative?

    Yin Yang Theory says everything can be divided into Yin and Yang. Men are considered to be Yang while Women are considered to be Yin.

    An example family has a large number of boys. Another part of Yin Yang Theory says that things need to be balanced between Yin and Yang. Here we have a family that is overbalanced Yang because of all the boy children.

    According to Yin Yang Theory, something must happen to that system to regain balance between Yin and Yang. What can happen in a family of all boys that will rebalance their Yin and Yang?

    If some of the boys went gay, went homo, turned into girls, or expressed Yin characteristics in some way, they would provide the Yin that was needed to rebalance the family.

    Alternatively, Yin would have to be brought in from an outside source to rebalance the family. The mother would need to give birth to female children, or some females from an outside source could be brought into the family, or some of the boys could be sent away to reduce the amount of Yang in the family so there was no need for Yin to rebalance the family.


     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,564
    Quote Originally Posted by mbokohutu
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith

    Along similar lines, however, is the kin selection theory - it has been shown that younger brothers are more likely to be homosexual if the majority of their older siblings are male. This means that there is already high competition between the male siblings, and at this point it is more advantageous for the younger brother to aid his siblings in their reproduction rather than to attempt his own.
    What if we pretended we had open minds and considered an alternative?

    Yin Yang Theory says everything can be divided into Yin and Yang. Men are considered to be Yang while Women are considered to be Yin.

    An example family has a large number of boys. Another part of Yin Yang Theory says that things need to be balanced between Yin and Yang. Here we have a family that is overbalanced Yang because of all the boy children.

    According to Yin Yang Theory, something must happen to that system to regain balance between Yin and Yang. What can happen in a family of all boys that will rebalance their Yin and Yang?

    If some of the boys went gay, went homo, turned into girls, or expressed Yin characteristics in some way, they would provide the Yin that was needed to rebalance the family.

    Alternatively, Yin would have to be brought in from an outside source to rebalance the family. The mother would need to give birth to female children, or some females from an outside source could be brought into the family, or some of the boys could be sent away to reduce the amount of Yang in the family so there was no need for Yin to rebalance the family.
    Never heard of this theory. Can you suggest a mechanism by which this process would occur? How does a family know when it is unbalanced? Has there been any work done to test the idea? How was it tested?


     

  4. #3  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by mbokohutu
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith

    Along similar lines, however, is the kin selection theory - it has been shown that younger brothers are more likely to be homosexual if the majority of their older siblings are male. This means that there is already high competition between the male siblings, and at this point it is more advantageous for the younger brother to aid his siblings in their reproduction rather than to attempt his own.
    What if we pretended we had open minds and considered an alternative?

    Yin Yang Theory says everything can be divided into Yin and Yang. Men are considered to be Yang while Women are considered to be Yin.

    An example family has a large number of boys. Another part of Yin Yang Theory says that things need to be balanced between Yin and Yang. Here we have a family that is overbalanced Yang because of all the boy children.

    According to Yin Yang Theory, something must happen to that system to regain balance between Yin and Yang. What can happen in a family of all boys that will rebalance their Yin and Yang?

    If some of the boys went gay, went homo, turned into girls, or expressed Yin characteristics in some way, they would provide the Yin that was needed to rebalance the family.

    Alternatively, Yin would have to be brought in from an outside source to rebalance the family. The mother would need to give birth to female children, or some females from an outside source could be brought into the family, or some of the boys could be sent away to reduce the amount of Yang in the family so there was no need for Yin to rebalance the family.
    I know TheBiologista has already challenged you on this, but as a moderator I am asking you to provide sources of empirical support for this theory or I will move this post to pseudoscience.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
     

  5. #4  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by mbokohutu
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith

    Along similar lines, however, is the kin selection theory - it has been shown that younger brothers are more likely to be homosexual if the majority of their older siblings are male. This means that there is already high competition between the male siblings, and at this point it is more advantageous for the younger brother to aid his siblings in their reproduction rather than to attempt his own.
    What if we pretended we had open minds and considered an alternative?

    Yin Yang Theory says everything can be divided into Yin and Yang. Men are considered to be Yang while Women are considered to be Yin.

    An example family has a large number of boys. Another part of Yin Yang Theory says that things need to be balanced between Yin and Yang. Here we have a family that is overbalanced Yang because of all the boy children.

    According to Yin Yang Theory, something must happen to that system to regain balance between Yin and Yang. What can happen in a family of all boys that will rebalance their Yin and Yang?

    If some of the boys went gay, went homo, turned into girls, or expressed Yin characteristics in some way, they would provide the Yin that was needed to rebalance the family.

    Alternatively, Yin would have to be brought in from an outside source to rebalance the family. The mother would need to give birth to female children, or some females from an outside source could be brought into the family, or some of the boys could be sent away to reduce the amount of Yang in the family so there was no need for Yin to rebalance the family.
    You forgot your source:

    http://www.happehtheory.com/HappehTh...ngMainPage.htm
     

  6. #5  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,564
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by mbokohutu
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith

    Along similar lines, however, is the kin selection theory - it has been shown that younger brothers are more likely to be homosexual if the majority of their older siblings are male. This means that there is already high competition between the male siblings, and at this point it is more advantageous for the younger brother to aid his siblings in their reproduction rather than to attempt his own.
    What if we pretended we had open minds and considered an alternative?

    Yin Yang Theory says everything can be divided into Yin and Yang. Men are considered to be Yang while Women are considered to be Yin.

    An example family has a large number of boys. Another part of Yin Yang Theory says that things need to be balanced between Yin and Yang. Here we have a family that is overbalanced Yang because of all the boy children.

    According to Yin Yang Theory, something must happen to that system to regain balance between Yin and Yang. What can happen in a family of all boys that will rebalance their Yin and Yang?

    If some of the boys went gay, went homo, turned into girls, or expressed Yin characteristics in some way, they would provide the Yin that was needed to rebalance the family.

    Alternatively, Yin would have to be brought in from an outside source to rebalance the family. The mother would need to give birth to female children, or some females from an outside source could be brought into the family, or some of the boys could be sent away to reduce the amount of Yang in the family so there was no need for Yin to rebalance the family.
    You forgot your source:

    http://www.happehtheory.com/HappehTh...ngMainPage.htm
    That website makes my mind sore. Not sore with the strain, but with the mind-numbing crapness of the information present. And my eyes hurt too.
     

  7. #6  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista

    That website makes my mind sore. Not sore with the strain, but with the mind-numbing crapness of the information present. And my eyes hurt too.
    Yes, I know, it's all you'd hoped it wouldn't be.
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore Tharghana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    157
    It Burns my retinas.

    My Question is, is Yin Yang theory even scientific?
    www.periodicvideos.com - A Great Site

    "Well, good chemists shouldn't lick their fingers, anyways." - Martyn Poliakoff

    "You have lived to die, and your running out of life."

    "Once and a while, I go out of my way... to kill you... a little"
     

  9. #8  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,564
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharghana
    It Burns my retinas.

    My Question is, is Yin Yang theory even scientific?
    Criteria for a theory:

    Predictive power
    Explanatory power
    Utility
    Plausibility
    Consensus acceptance by the scientific community

    I'm sure there's more...

    But on the above:

    Fail
    Fail
    Fail
    Fail
    FAIL
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Sophomore Tharghana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    157
    As I thought. :wink:
    www.periodicvideos.com - A Great Site

    "Well, good chemists shouldn't lick their fingers, anyways." - Martyn Poliakoff

    "You have lived to die, and your running out of life."

    "Once and a while, I go out of my way... to kill you... a little"
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    The evidence is against you at this point, mbokohutu. Unless you have an empirically based argument in support of your points, they and all related posts will be moved.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
     

  12. #11  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista
    Never heard of this theory. Can you suggest a mechanism by which this process would occur?
    Energy transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista
    Never heard of this theory. How does a family know when it is unbalanced?
    One member of the family exerts inordinate amounts of control over the other family members is one way. One family member is extremely healthy compared to other family members is another way. If all of the children were one sex, one of those children exhibiting opposite sex characteristics would be another way. Simple counting can provide a clue. Have 2 woman and 6 men in the family? Probably overbalanced Yang. Have 7 girls and 3 boys? Probably overbalanced Yin.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista
    Never heard of this theory. Has there been any work done to test the idea?
    I am guessing many people have tested this idea over the course of history.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista
    How was it tested?
    You would have to ask those people.
     

  13. #12  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharghana
    It Burns my retinas.

    My Question is, is Yin Yang theory even scientific?
    Criteria for a theory:

    Predictive power
    Explanatory power
    Utility
    Plausibility
    Consensus acceptance by the scientific community

    I'm sure there's more...

    But on the above:

    Fail
    Fail
    Fail
    Fail
    FAIL
    Oh lord. Poster in a science forum using the current trendy popular jargon of children to express himself. I am surprised this intellectual giant did not spell it "phail" like all of the cool kids.

    Please state why it fails. Please ignore scientific community consensus. The scientific communtiy is made up of sheep that believe whatever the most powerful sheep in the group tell them to believe. Reality makes no difference to scientists.

    Explain why Yin Yang Theory fails at Utility, Plausibility, Predictive Power, and Explanatory Power.
     

  14. #13  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    The evidence is against you at this point, mbokohutu. Unless you have an empirically based argument in support of your points, they and all related posts will be moved.
    Translation. We don't like what you say, so we will remove it from our board.

    "The evidence" you point out consists of exactly 2 pages of posting, of which I might have created 4 or 5 of them.

    On what planet is careful scientific study carried out over the course of 48 hours and the exchange of 5 messages containing maybe 1 or 2000 words?

    Admit you are close minded. No one cares. Be honest. It is good for you.
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    mbokohutu, when you postulate a theory in a discussion, the burden of proof is on you. You have offered no empirical sources for these theories. I am moving these posts to pseudoscience.

    Edit: In response to your latest comments. Of course experimentation doesn't happen in a forum. That's why we ask that you reference sources from people who have the time the facilities to make these tests. You have offered no such sources.

    In a science based forum we only allow discussions based on the scientific method of empirical evidence. There are other places where theories like yours can be discussed in detail, such as pseudoscience, or the philosophy forum.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
     

  16. #15  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    mbokohutu, when you postulate a theory in a discussion, the burden of proof is on you. You have offered no empirical sources for these theories. I am moving these posts to pseudoscience.


    You sir are an asshole. As I said previously. This conversation has taken place over 2 days. 2 days. And in your role as a scientist, you are saying that 2 days is long enough to prove something scientific.

    Let me ask you a question. Your profile says you are a PhD student. How long does it take your professors to convince you of something? Most college classes last 5 months. So you give your professors 5 months to convince you of a scientific principle, but here at these forums you think 2 days is enough time.

    Could you please explain why you give professors at college 5 months to present their case, but only 2 days to a person in the forums to present their case?

    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Edit: In response to your latest comments. Of course experimentation doesn't happen in a forum. That's why we ask that you reference sources from people who have the time the facilities to make these tests. You have offered no such sources.
    Let me get this straight. A Phd student is saying that unless I have a group of people that agree with me, then I must be wrong?

    You know they told Einstein he was wrong don't you? But they were all stupid, and Einstein was right.

    Have you for one second,with that Phd education of yours, considered how new areas of science are discovered and developed? By definition a new area of science will not have any studies or any group of people behind it, because it is a new area of science.

    If people like you were allowed to control the science of human beings, human beings would never develop any science. Someone would discover something new, you would demand they provide 10 people who agree with them, and since the guy just discovered the new idea, it is impossible for there to be 10 people who agree with him.

    For a Phd student, you are really stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    In a science based forum we only allow discussions based on the scientific method of empirical evidence. There are other places where theories like yours can be discussed in detail, such as pseudoscience, or the philosophy forum.
    Fuck You.

    Let me Repeat that.

    Fuck You.

    Science is about pondering what is possible. If a small minded child like yourself refuses to ponder about what is possible, then no new inventions or discoveries will ever be made

    You are a child in school. You don't know anything at all about real life. So don't talk down to me like you know something and I don't.

    When you grow up and gain some real life experience, then you can try pulling that "I am superior" shit on me.
     

  17. #16  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by mbokohutu

    You sir are an asshole.

    For a Phd student, you are really stupid.


    Fuck You.

    Let me Repeat that.

    Fuck You.
    It would appear that Happeh wants to get banned from here too. Bye Happeh. Who will you return as next?
     

  18. #17  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Bye Happeh. Thanks for the entertainment.
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    If your theories had any scientific grounding your time would be better spent explaining the supporting data rather than composing a long post dedicated to me.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
     

  20. #19  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    599
    Screw this I'm hijacking this thread to actually talk about yin and yang theory

    and there's not a damn thing any of you can do about it!


    http://www.shen-nong.com/eng/princip...atyinyang.html

    So Yin is the shady side of a slope and yang is the sunny side. Cool. Everything from male/female, earth/sky etc etc can have yin and yang properties imposed upon them. Note I am saying imposed upon, not applied to.


    okay so I'm reading more and more of this site and I came across this gem:

    Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) believes the human body has organic unity
    That's a pretty good way of describing "TCM" and even ying and yang ideas- belief. This, along with things like accupuncture, probably exact some kind of placebo effect or something. Well, okay, I'll keep reading for a moment...

    TCM believes yin yang disharmony is the cause of disease and physiological disorders.
    Ouch, I guess my aunt died of Yin Yang disharmony and NOT from the metastasized cancer in her brain, along with the tumor in her spine. We really should be pouring all our funding into balancing Yin and Yang...but how would that even be possible if you're a male? You'd be BORN with too much yang!

    There are many factors that cause yin and yang disharmony, but they are all related to the "evils" (outside influences that cause disease) and the flow of qi throughout the body
    oh I get it so undisclosed evils CAUSED the cancer...so wait it's not the yin and yang disharmony, it's outside factors? That's a pretty nice way of no committing to any answer.

    Wait a minute, what the hell is a Qi and how does it flow through the body?

    Normal qi is composed of yang qi (physiological functions and energy) and yin fluid (physical form and the physiological fluid of body) while the "pernicious evils" are composed of six evils
    I am starting to feel like Alice...

    Cold and dampness belong to yin evils while wind, dryness, summer heat, and fire belong to yang evils.
    ...and finally I've arrived in wonderland!

    The conflict between resuming normal qi and getting rid of the "pernicious evils" is what allows the disease to either progress or transform back to a healthy state. By applying the yin yang theory to treat and diagnose diseases, yin yang harmony can be restored and health maintained.
    Surely it's just a coincidence thatremoving the tumor my mom had and giving her chemotherapy coincided with her recovery from cancer- obviously removing the tumor restored her balance, but the tumor was the effect from the disbalance...right? RIGHT?

    TCM diagnoses patients according to their disharmony pattern. Preliminarily, all patterns are classified into a system known as the "eight principal patterns." The "eight principal patterns" contain four pattern pairs: interior and exterior, cold and heat, deficiency and excess, and yin and yang. Among the eight patterns, yin and yang are the most fundamental and essential pattern
    Oh so now it's a disharmony PATTERN. Okay at this point I think they might be making something up.


    Call it cut throat, but maybe we should treat anyone that believes in things like TCM with solutions provided by TCM. After a few rounds of ground up tiger testicles not clearing up their leukemia, they might just be begging for western science and the little thing I like to call 'results'.
     

  21. #20  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by mormoopid
    After a few rounds of ground up tiger testicles not clearing up their leukemia, they might just be begging for western science and the little thing I like to call 'results'.
    Tigers are an endangered species. People with strange ideas, unfortunately, are not.
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    6
    Fool. Let's start out by getting the important stuff out of the way. You are a fool. You are basically complaining because the material is too complex for you to comprehend in 10 minutes of reading

    Quote Originally Posted by mormoopid
    Ouch, I guess my aunt died of Yin Yang disharmony and NOT from the metastasized cancer in her brain, along with the tumor in her spine. We really should be pouring all our funding into balancing Yin and Yang...but how would that even be possible if you're a male? You'd be BORN with too much yang!.
    Okay fool. What CAUSED your aunt's cancer? Sceintsts will talk about cells etc and they are probably right. But what if the development of your aunt's cancer could be described in terms of Yin and Yang? That explanation would not deny what scientists say about cells, it would just ignore them and explain the development of cancer in a different way.

    Quote Originally Posted by mormoopid
    oh I get it so undisclosed evils CAUSED the cancer...so wait it's not the yin and yang disharmony, it's outside factors? That's a pretty nice way of no committing to any answer.
    Simpleton. What is your problem? An outside cause made the Yin and Yang disharmonious. The disharmony between Yin and Yang caused the cancer.

    You need every step of the thought process filled in for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by mormoopid
    Surely it's just a coincidence thatremoving the tumor my mom had and giving her chemotherapy coincided with her recovery from cancer- obviously removing the tumor restored her balance, but the tumor was the effect from the disbalance...right? RIGHT?
    If you have a blister on your finger, and I cut your arm off, did I cure the blister? Sure I did. The blister on your finger is gone. Along with your arm.

    If I just punctured the blister, it would drain and the blister would also be gone from your finger.

    Which method of treatment do you feel is better? Cutting off the arm or draining the blister?

    They "cut off your mothers arm" instead of "draining her blister" when they cut out that tumor. Sure they got rid of the cancer, but they used a drastic invasive way that created side effects I bet your mother still lives with.
     

  23. #22  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlson
    Fool. Let's start out by getting the important stuff out of the way. You are a fool. You are basically complaining because the material is too complex for you to comprehend in 10 minutes of reading
    Complex? Or, just plain ridiculous?


    Okay fool. What CAUSED your aunt's cancer? Sceintsts will talk about cells etc and they are probably right. But what if the development of your aunt's cancer could be described in terms of Yin and Yang?
    Then, we could do away with modern medicine.


    Simpleton. What is your problem? An outside cause made the Yin and Yang disharmonious. The disharmony between Yin and Yang caused the cancer.
    Brilliant, mothers milk leads to heroin, too.


    If you have a blister on your finger, and I cut your arm off, did I cure the blister? Sure I did. The blister on your finger is gone. Along with your arm.

    If I just punctured the blister, it would drain and the blister would also be gone from your finger.

    Which method of treatment do you feel is better? Cutting off the arm or draining the blister?
    Can you actually drain cancer like draining a blister?
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
     

  24. #23  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlson
    An outside cause made the Yin and Yang disharmonious.
    I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts here. Do you suppose yin/yang applies to left/right brain hemispheres?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  25. #24  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,564
    Quote Originally Posted by mbokohutu
    Fuck You.

    Let me Repeat that.

    Fuck You.

    Science is about pondering what is possible. If a small minded child like yourself refuses to ponder about what is possible, then no new inventions or discoveries will ever be made
    Science is also about backing up your claims with empirical evidence, and refuting criticism without resorting to a meaningless torrent of profane abuse. If you want to play this game, get used to being shot down. Had you any experience of how science works beyond what appears to be a Hollywood caricature of science, you'd know that these "sheep" you seem so dismissive of attack each other constantly until only the most robust and well-supported theories remain. If you cannot take even this mild probing without wailing swear words like some moronic teenager then do yourself a favour and quit pretending to be a scientist. Because this is how it works. You make a claim and you back it up or we'll tear it down and stamp it into nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbokohutu
    You are a child in school. You don't know anything at all about real life. So don't talk down to me like you know something and I don't.

    When you grow up and gain some real life experience, then you can try pulling that "I am superior" shit on me.
    Your response gives you no intellectual or moral high ground at all. It's plain for all to see who here needs to grow up. This is not even worthy of pseudo science, but it will remain here as a reminder to us all of what a total moron you are.
     

  26. #25  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,564
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlson
    Fool. Let's start out by getting the important stuff out of the way. You are a fool. You are basically complaining because the material is too complex for you to comprehend in 10 minutes of reading.
    Nope. Not having this. Locked. Come look at the caged moron, children. Point and laugh. Point and laugh.
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •