Thread: The Helium Balloon Test.

Helium symbol = He

If I’m holding a helium balloon in outer-space high above our Earth’s atmosphere which way will the He-balloon float?

Like all things helium gas obeys the laws of Earth’s physics, fresh water rises over salt water so will gases depending on their densities, He-gas will rise above Ozone but remain stationed below Hydrogen and as all of Earth’s gases layer themselves one over the other from the bottom up there comes a limit to where there will be a clear separation between the layers of these gases (atmosphere) and the void of space. And this limit does exit or we would lose all of Earth’s gases including our oxygen to the vast emptiness of space, so, these gases do respect the laws of Earth’s physics. This is how the Shuttle after plunging through the atmosphere falls back and hovers over the Earth and needs rocket engines to help break-thru the first layers of these gases until inside this invisible dome then shuts off the engines and glides to the surface of Earth.

Question remains, which way will this helium balloon float?

The weight of the rubber (latex, whatever) hull will probably be much greater than the buoyancy provided by the difference in specific weight between and the ozone outside. Which means your balloon will move downwards. Remember that the buoyancy at such altitudes is very low, because your balloon is only displacing very light rarefied gases.

If your balloon is so huge and so thin that the weight of the hull is negligible, then it will float up or down towards the altitude where the specific weight of the outside gases equals that of the helium. The latter is probaly increased by the pressure from the elastic hull, making the balloon heavier.

Note that the ozone and hydrogen layers are by no means clearly defined; the two gases mix a lot, forming a continuous transition with the percentage of ozone decreasing and that of hydrogen increasing as you move upwards.

As for shuttle re-entry, what you wrote isn't quite right. There is no invisible atmospheric shell to pierce by firing the engine. The engine is just used to slow down the orbital motion so the craft starts falling. After that, the fall is guaranteed, and any more manouvers are only needed to ensure that the craft survives.

Cheers, Leszek.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

The weight of the rubber (latex, whatever) hull will probably be much greater than the buoyancy provided by the difference in specific weight between and the ozone outside. Which means your balloon will move downwards. Remember that the buoyancy at such altitudes is very low, because your balloon is only displacing very light rarefied gases.

Remember outside the Earth's atmosphere is where you're holding the balloon so there are no gases, you're in space. The balloon will fall towards the atmosphere that would be down, therefore gravity still pulls and it pulls with same force that we experience on earth. Now when the gravity claims the Helium to return to the rank of its order below the Hydrogen gas level why do the astronauts float around when seen repairing the Shuttle when gravity is still a factor in space?

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Note that the ozone and hydrogen layers are by no means clearly defined; the two gases mix a lot, forming a continuous transition with the percentage of ozone decreasing and that of hydrogen increasing as you move upwards.

Gases layer themselves one over the other according to there density, your not the one who's gonna change the laws of physics so I suggest you remain in REALITY so we can continue this discussion in the most logical and educational way.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

As for shuttle re-entry, what you wrote isn't quite right. There is no invisible atmospheric shell to pierce by firing the engine. The engine is just used to slow down the orbital motion so the craft starts falling. After that, the fall is guaranteed, and any more manouvers are only needed to ensure that the craft survives.

The atmosphere is that invisible shell, the engines aren't used to stop orbit, why would the Shuttle orbit? If you put a ball on ground zero will that ball start rolling around the round Earth? NO!!! The same area applies to the atmosphere, because the atmosphere is PARALLEL to the ground, the Shuttle doesn't move. Why should it move? Maybe this link will help with a visual, picture the Shuttle sitting at 250 km now look to ground zero, see how flat the ground is? That's how flat the atmosphere is up there following the flat ground below.

http://ds9.ssl.berkeley.edu/LWS_GEMS...3/emrad510.jpg

[quote="newcastle"]

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Now if the gravity claims the Helium to return to the rank of its order below the Hydrogen gas level why do the astronauts float around when seen repairing the Shuttle if gravity is still a factor in space?

Because both the shuttle and the astronauts are in orbit

Gases layer themselves one over the other according to there density, your not the one who's gonna change the laws of physics so I suggest you remain in REALITY so we can continue this discussion in the most logical and educational way.

He is remaining in reality, you seem to be the one who is having trouble doing so.

The atmosphere is that invisible shell, the engines aren't used to stop orbit, why would the Shuttle orbit? If you put a ball on ground zero will that ball start rolling around the round Earth? NO!!! The same area applies to the atmosphere, because the atmosphere is PARALLEL to the ground, the Shuttle doesn't move. Why should it move? Maybe this link will help with a visual, picture the Shuttle sitting at 250 km now look to ground zero, see how flat the ground is? That's how flat the atmosphere is up there following the flat ground below.

You need to learn a bit more about the shuttle before you can talk with any authority about it. Just making stuff up on your own just won't cut it.

http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/sts_orbit.htm

Originally Posted by newcastle

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

The weight of the rubber (latex, whatever) hull will probably be much greater than the buoyancy provided by the difference in specific weight between and the ozone outside. Which means your balloon will move downwards. Remember that the buoyancy at such altitudes is very low, because your balloon is only displacing very light rarefied gases.

Remember outside the Earth's atmosphere is where you're holding the balloon so there are no gases, you're in space. The balloon will fall towards the atmosphere that would be down, therefore gravity still pulls and it pulls with same force that we experience on earth. Now if the gravity claims the Helium to return to the rank of its order below the Hydrogen gas level why do the astronauts float around when seen repairing the Shuttle if gravity is still a factor in space?

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Note that the ozone and hydrogen layers are by no means clearly defined; the two gases mix a lot, forming a continuous transition with the percentage of ozone decreasing and that of hydrogen increasing as you move upwards.

Gases layer themselves one over the other according to there density, your not the one who's gonna change the laws of physics so I suggest you remain in REALITY so we can continue this discussion in the most logical and educational way.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

As for shuttle re-entry, what you wrote isn't quite right. There is no invisible atmospheric shell to pierce by firing the engine. The engine is just used to slow down the orbital motion so the craft starts falling. After that, the fall is guaranteed, and any more manouvers are only needed to ensure that the craft survives.

The atmosphere is that invisible shell, the engines aren't used to stop orbit, why would the Shuttle orbit? If you put a ball on ground zero will that ball start rolling around the round Earth? NO!!! The same area applies to the atmosphere, because the atmosphere is PARALLEL to the ground, the Shuttle doesn't move. Why should it move? Maybe this link will help with a visual, picture the Shuttle sitting at 250 km now look to ground zero, see how flat the ground is? That's how flat the atmosphere is up there following the flat ground below.

http://ds9.ssl.berkeley.edu/LWS_GEMS...3/emrad510.jpg

We have never seen pure space in this universe and never will. It is all totally contaminated with matter.

Space is filled with hydrogen gas. I am assuming in the H2 molecular form. Only because I have never done any tests with gases from space.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

I am unable to detect anything approaching sense or science in Newcastle's ramblings, so I am moving this to pseudoscience.

Originally Posted by Janus

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Now if the gravity claims the Helium to return to the rank of its order below the Hydrogen gas level why do the astronauts float around when seen repairing the Shuttle if gravity is still a factor in space?

I didn't.

Originally Posted by Janus

PUNISHER: Now if the gravity claims the Helium to return to the rank of its order below the Hydrogen gas level why do the astronauts float around when seen repairing the Shuttle if gravity is still a factor in space?

JANUS: Because both the shuttle and the astronauts are in orbit.

Okay Janus, here's the deal, you answer the question and make me look like the idiot.

The Question:

When you drive your car on your city roads (on the planes) the atmosphere is level to this surface you're driving on, only parallel 300 km up. You know that your car is moving forward because you've got your foot on the gas pedal, but if you take your foot off it your car begins to slow down and finally comes to a stop, so, "how does the ISS or Shuttle who are on the same flat surface plane in regards to the atmosphere be traveling this so-called orbit?"

Originally Posted by Janus

PUNISHER: Gases layer themselves one over the other according to there density, your not the one who's gonna change the laws of physics so I suggest you remain in REALITY so we can continue this discussion in the most logical and educational way.

JANUS: He is remaining in reality, you seem to be the one who is having trouble doing so.

That's because you're sharing the same fantasy, it seems real to both of you because you're both truly living the reality, which is, you're both really actively living the fantasy.

Originally Posted by Janus

PUNISHER: The atmosphere is that invisible shell, the engines aren't used to stop orbit, why would the Shuttle orbit? If you put a ball on ground zero will that ball start rolling around the round Earth? NO!!! The same area applies to the atmosphere, because the atmosphere is PARALLEL to the ground, the Shuttle doesn't move. Why should it move? Maybe this link will help with a visual, picture the Shuttle sitting at 250 km now look to ground zero, see how flat the ground is? That's how flat the atmosphere is up there following the flat ground below.

JANUS: You need to learn a bit more about the shuttle before you can talk with any authority about it. Just making stuff up on your own just won't cut it.

Answer the Question, we'll see who needs the education.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Now if the gravity claims the Helium to return to the rank of its order below the Hydrogen gas level why do the astronauts float around when seen repairing the Shuttle if gravity is still a factor in space?
--------------------------------
I didn't.

Thanks for correcting me, what I meant to say was: "When gravity claims the Helium to return to the rank of its order below the Hydrogen gas level why do the astronauts float around when seen repairing the Shuttle when gravity is still a factor in space?"

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

I am unable to detect anything approaching sense or science in Newcastle's ramblings, so I am moving this to pseudoscience.

That comes as no surprise from you Ophiolite.

you realise that there have been balloon satellites ? these should give you a good indication of how a balloon would react in orbit around the earth

Originally Posted by newcastle

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

I am unable to detect anything approaching sense or science in Newcastle's ramblings, so I am moving this to pseudoscience.

That comes as no surprise from you Ophiolite.

Thank you. I view that as a compliment and confirmation of the correctness of my decision. I accept that total deletion, or the Trash Can would have been more appropriate choices, but I have this bizarre liking for free speech.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

I am unable to detect anything approaching sense or science in Newcastle's ramblings, so I am moving this to pseudoscience.
---------------------
That comes as no surprise from you Ophiolite.
---------------------
Thank you. I view that as a compliment and confirmation of the correctness of my decision. I accept that total deletion, or the Trash Can would have been more appropriate choices, but I have this bizarre liking for free speech.

Of course you do, this is why I said it. And your actions speak not of free-speech (here's were I correct you) for if you were truly honest with that statement you would have disputed the O-P rendering a scientific rebuttal proving your correctness not to yourself but for everyone else including me.
Then proceeding on your actions. But your bizarre liking of "speech" is well appreciated, hope you feel the same about being corrected.

Originally Posted by newcastle

what I meant to say was: "When gravity claims the Helium to return to the rank of its order below the Hydrogen gas level why do the astronauts float around when seen repairing the Shuttle if gravity is still a factor in space?"

I thought we were talking about a baloon which, at some starting point in time, has approximately zero velocity, so its motion is due to buoyancy on one hand and gravity on the other. If it's orbiting, it's a whole new story.

As someone already said, the astronauts and the shuttle are in orbit. Which means they are moving horizontally at such speed that gravity is just strong enough to bend their trajectory into a circle. At the relatively low altitude of the shuttle, this speed is approx. 8000 m/s. The Moon is also in orbit around the earth, but it is much "higher" (further away), which means its orbiting speed is much lower and it only goes round the earth about once in a month.

If you still think gravity is "not a factor" for orbiting objects, take about 1m of string (3ft will do if you prefer imperial measures) and attach a shoe or a similar mass at one end. Now stand in an open space or in the middle of a large room. Raise your hand above your head and swing the shoe around in a horizontal circle, in a continuous, circular motion.

Is the string tense? I mean, can you feel that it would snap if it were a thin thread? Doesn't this mean you are applying a force to the shoe? If so, why doesn't it get any closer to your hand?

Is the string a factor in what is happening? If you think it's not, let go of the string and see what happens to the shoe then. It will fly away on a tangent. The same would happen to the astronauts and the shuttle if gravity stopped: they would fly away and get lost in space.



Newcastle, we are here to help each other understand things. You seem to need a lot of help. Try being more polite when you ask for it. Calling people names and yelling at them only works if you can follow it up with a physical threat, which, thankfully, is not feasible in an internet forum.

Originally Posted by marnixR

you realise that there have been balloon satellites ? these should give you a good indication of how a balloon would react in orbit around the earth

Answer the question, only by answering the question will you come to realizing all that science has taught you has been in vain.

The Question:

When you drive your car on your city roads (on the planes) the atmosphere is level to this surface you're driving on, only parallel 300 km up. You know that your car is moving forward because you've got your foot on the gas pedal, but if you take your foot off it your car begins to slow down and finally comes to a stop, so, "how does the ISS or Shuttle who are on the same flat surface plane in regards to the atmosphere be traveling this so-called orbit?"

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

As someone already said, the astronauts and the shuttle are in orbit. Which means they are moving horizontally at such speed that gravity is just strong enough to bend their trajectory into a circle. At the relatively low altitude of the shuttle, this speed is approx. 8000 m/s. The Moon is also in orbit around the earth, but it is much "higher" (further away), which means its orbiting speed is much lower and it only goes round the earth about once in a month.

Newcastle, we are here to help each other understand things. You seem to need a lot of help. Try being more polite when you ask for it. Calling people names and yelling at them only works if you can follow it up with a physical threat, which, thankfully, is not feasible in an internet forum.

Ya-ya, okay, you answer this question, and after you do the way I know you will, I have another one for your science-fiction.

The Question:

When you drive your car on your city roads (on the planes) the atmosphere is level to this surface you're driving on, only parallel 300 km up. You know that your car is moving forward because you've got your foot on the gas pedal, but if you take your foot off it your car begins to slow down and finally comes to a stop, so, "how does the ISS or Shuttle who are on the same flat surface plane in regards to the atmosphere be traveling this so-called orbit?"

Originally Posted by newcastle

The Question:

When you drive your car on your city roads (on the planes) the atmosphere is level to this surface you're driving on, only parallel 300 km up. You know that your car is moving forward because you've got your foot on the gas pedal, but if you take your foot off it your car begins to slow down and finally comes to a stop, so, "how does the ISS or Shuttle who are on the same flat surface plane in regards to the atmosphere be traveling this so-called orbit?"

The Answer:

Motion doesn't stop by itself. You need a force to decelerate just as you need a force to accelerate. Your car slows down and stops because of friction in its bearings, energy dissipation in the tyres, and air drag.

The ISS, the shuttles and lots of other orbiting hardware, unlike your car, are not touching the ground. They are also at altitudes where they encounter very little air drag. Which means there is nothing (or almost nothing) to stop their motion.

Low-orbit spacecraft actually need a little push with their engines from time to time, to compensate for the air drag (if "air" is the right word - more like hydrogen). Without this, they would fly slower and lower and eventually fall.

Those in higher orbits can circle the Earth for ages without propulsion. This is what the Moon has been doing for all these millennia.

Have I answered your question?

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Have I answered your question?

True, but not necessarily correct.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

The Question:

When you drive your car on your city roads (on the planes) the atmosphere is level to this surface you're driving on, only parallel 300 km up. You know that your car is moving forward because you've got your foot on the gas pedal, but if you take your foot off it your car begins to slow down and finally comes to a stop, so, "how does the ISS or Shuttle who are on the same flat surface plane in regards to the atmosphere be traveling this so-called orbit?"
-------------------------------
The Answer:

Motion doesn't stop by itself. You need a force to decelerate just as you need a force to accelerate. Your car slows down and stops because of friction in its bearings, energy dissipation in the tyres, and air drag.

The gases that layer up one on top of the other (atmosphere) are held by a force, that force is called gravity, if we on Earth had no gravity our cars would take longer to slow-down because there would be no friction, the air would be the only assistance to that slow-down. So, since the Shuttle sits on these gases held down by that force called gravity it too will slow-down granted it will take longer for there is no air to assist that deceleration. But the question still remains, "how does the Shuttle achieve orbit without propulsion?"

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

The ISS, the shuttles and lots of other orbiting hardware, unlike your car, are not touching the ground. They are also at altitudes where they encounter very little air drag. Which means there is nothing (or almost nothing) to stop their motion.

But they're touching gases which are held down by gravity, and upon re-entering the atmosphere there is an enormous amount of friction, so friction exists even on the uppermost levels of the atmosphere.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Those in higher orbits can circle the Earth for ages without propulsion. This is what the Moon has been doing for all these millennia.

Lets leave creation out of this Pinocchio science for the time being.

Originally Posted by newcastle

So, since the Shuttle sits on these gases held down by that force called gravity it too will slow-down granted it will take longer for there is no air to assist that deceleration. But question still remains, "how does the Shuttle achieve orbit without propulsion?"

It doesn't. And it doesn't.

It doesn't "sit" on anything. It flies, in case you haven't noticed.

It doesn't "achieve" orbit (get into it) without propulsion. It burns a lot of fuel in a big flame, in case you haven't noticed.

But, once in orbit, it can spend a considerable amount of time up there with its engines off. For reasons I have been going out of my way to help you understand, in case you haven't noticed.

Originally Posted by newcastle

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

The ISS, the shuttles and lots of other orbiting hardware, unlike your car, are not touching the ground. They are also at altitudes where they encounter very little air drag. Which means there is nothing (or almost nothing) to stop their motion.

But they're touching gases which are held down by gravity, and upon re-entering the atmosphere there is an enormous amount of friction, so friction exists even on the uppermost levels of the atmosphere.

The reason why it's called re-entry is that they move down from very high altitudes, where the atmospheric drag (or "friction") is almost imperceptible, to lower ones where, at this speed (reminder: approx. 8000 m/s, that's 10 times the muzzle velocity of a rifle), the atmospheric drag is spectacular, violent, and dangerous.

Originally Posted by newcastle

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Those in higher orbits can circle the Earth for ages without propulsion. This is what the Moon has been doing for all these millennia.

Lets leave creation out of this Pinocchio science for the time being.

I didn't mention creation, in case you haven't noticed.

I just said the Moon has been orbiting the Earth without an engine for quite awhile, in case you haven't noticed.

As for Pinocchio, remember what happened to him when he wouldn't go to school. Now be a good boy, pick up that real science book which I have read and you haven't, apologize to your teachers, and do your homework.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

So, since the Shuttle sits on these gases held down by that force called gravity it too will slow-down granted it will take longer for there is no air to assist that deceleration. But question still remains, "how does the Shuttle achieve orbit without propulsion?"
--------------------------------
It doesn't. And it doesn't.

It doesn't "sit" on anything. It flies, in case you haven't noticed.

It doesn't "achieve" orbit (get into it) without propulsion.

But, once in orbit, it can spend a considerable amount of time up there with its engines off.

It does, because the atmosphere is level and parallel to your everyday rural areas of your neighbor-hood. The Shuttle would be siting on an exact horizontal plane such as the spaces of your own surroundings, there would be no way for the Shuttle to go forward without propulsion. Think of it in this way, if you lay a ball on the ground will this ball start falling around the round Earth? Not my ball, so, if the same ball is taken directly over head of that same spot and laid on the atmosphere will that ball start falling around the round Earth and achieve what we've come to believe is orbit? NO!!!!! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

The reason why it's called re-entry is that they move down from very high altitudes, where the atmospheric drag (or "friction") is almost imperceptible, to lower ones where, at this speed (reminder: approx. 8000 m/s, that's 10 times the muzzle velocity of a rifle), the atmospheric drag is spectacular, violent, and dangerous.

No my brother, the tiles on the Shuttle suggest otherwise, these tiles don't heat up on lift-off only on re-entering, because the friction is so incredible they are literally drilling into those gases, and just like a drill bit it will heat up. Because when the Shuttle plunges through the atmosphere and into outer space, the emptiness of space allows that where ever the Shuttle rests upon something, that something becomes the support of the Shuttle, in this case that something are the layers of gases pile up one on top of the other known as the atmosphere. At this height and being on the outside into the emptiness this something (although gases) becomes a support and act like a soft surface, we would be able walk on the atmosphere, so when the Shuttle re-enters it needs rocket engine power to drill through this support and the tiles to cool the heat generated.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

I didn't mention creation, in case you haven't noticed.

I just said the Moon has been orbiting the Earth without an engine for quite awhile, in case you haven't noticed.

The Moon is creation and GOD created it, someone is responsible for everything and anything designed, in the case of cars and homes we know it's man, but why draw the line there? I wonder why we don't see the house or car the same way like the planet?

Man's own designing capability can't make nothing with life using raw materials, try taking alittle earth and some rocks and do whatever is necessary to get a living breathing organism, they can't, so when they can't do something or understand they resort to chance, and that no one is higher than Man, therefore, theorizing that the superior design is chance, making Man the ultimate creator, thinking themselves as gods.

But they're not gods, they're men with the personality and character of GOD you're Creator, this is why when the average Joe try's to build or repair something he does it as though it will last forever, because forever was you're Designer.

You were made without hands as was you're Creator made without hands, this is the give away, the clue, that we all share. HE is infinite, as are we, for our planet sits in the infinite Universe, we are living now in the Infinite. This is the only proof I can show you, the proof that has been all around us for ages, the only thing humans can create without hands, are other humans.

Evolution, they'll never make a monkey out of me, and I suggest you hop over this link like the sheep you once were, and become the Man GOD made you to be.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

As for Pinocchio, remember what happened to him when he wouldn't go to school. Now be a good boy, pick up that real science book which I have read and you haven't, apologize to your teachers, and do your homework.

Funny I enjoyed this part the most, to bad our noses don't grow when we lie those science teachers would all be finding new jobs asap.

Newcastle, I'm afraid discussing astronomy with you is pointless. I wish I had the money to invite you to a trip to the ISS.

Until then, let's agree to differ.

Peace,
Leszek.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

I wish I had the money to invite you to a trip to the ISS.

Peace,
Leszek.

Regular civilians can't buy a trip like that, you would have to be initiated into the system first, because then you would know the truth and they'd have to kill you, like that poor school teacher from Massachusetts.

Leszek,
I am curious. Do you have nutcases like Newcastle in Poland, or is it mainly an American/British phenomenon?

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

I am curious. Do you have nutcases like Newcastle in Poland, or is it mainly an American/British phenomenon?

Hard to say. Nutcasiness, as you call it, is such a multivariate phenomenon that just to define the word "like" in your sentence in any meaningful way defies my knowledge of algebra and topology.
Newcastle is the first flat-earther I have ever met, but I know someone, and quite educated too, who doesn't believe in evolution. Much less vocal about it though than Newcastle is. You may find some full-blown seven-day creationists among the very old and/or poorly educated; most of whom wouldn't know what an internet forum is, much less how to post on it.
Our domestic flame wars are usually about politics (often intertwined with recent history) - perhaps 80% - and morals - some 10%, areas where direct scientific observation cannot definitely confirm or falsify any point of view.
I am not aware of any religious community in Poland having an official stand against rounded Earth, evolution, or the Big Bang; certainly not my own RCC, which is by far the majority denomination.