Thread: Quantum this, Quantum that

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

But this is not what happened. If we look at our bodies we will find that most of our cells no longer have the ability to survive on their own. By working together and sheilding each other, protecting weaker members they have changed all the rules of evolution. For them it is no longer survival of the fittest, it is survival of the community.

What I believe we are all searching for is a central governing principal of life, that can help us to understand how life systems self-organized in the past, so that we may better adapt our own self-organizing potential as humans for the future.
To recognize developing currents between existing components, that can relate to a larger view. One that links us to inherent aspects of nature.
Then to redirect our energies spent on outdated models, by acknowledging governing dynamics beyond our illusionary ideas of control. Allowing these creative elements to manifest by simply providing a environment conducive to these archetypal currents.
I believe what I have discovered written in the record of the earth can help us. This Second ring of life. A pre-emergent synergy that sparked the Cambrian explosion. This dynamic represented by a fossilized embryonic form containing a confluence of environmental elements, that represent not only the birth of life in the distant past, but reflects our present stage of development as a civilization.
A sudden convergence of environmental components captured in a fluid self-assembling point that crystallizes into a nexus. Though this ancient lens a new source of information is emerging. I can now see the underlying order in the chaos that surrounds us. Though this "Vesica attractor" I now understand that we our entering a predestined phase of evolution. An unimaginable new world. The third ring of life , A dynamic brought into motion by our accumulated complexity and diversity. A new paradigm that combines scientific logic, to heart felt beliefs of a divine source, from which we all emerged. The question we must now ask is, can we work together at bringing to life this potential for creating a new world? Can we connect ourselves in a vibrant cohesive whole in such a way that creativity and networks of cooperation become the new paradigm, rather than fear and control?

What I am attempted to bring to light is a model based on fossil evidence, that shows life was not just driven into existence by processes of elimination, But was more precisely born from a unity of converging worlds that spiraled together suddenly and exponentially in an environment balanced by stability and renewal.
We beings are manifestations of these universal aspects of nature, unified into a nexus of harmony’s. A music of the spheres expressed in living forms. It seems apparent that these are the true rings of power inherent in the universe and represent a sustainable paradigm for life.


When the dolphin jumps, it is saying, I am dolphin, this is how I jump!
When the sparrow sings it is saying, I am sparrow this is my song.
What sound are gesture can express our humanness ?
How can each of us find our place in this sea of self making and experience this new world..... that is about to come to pass.




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Similar events one can observe in the psychic realm. People who have been bound too long to the causal paradigma begin to die in this life. Unconsciously they will become "living deads". Thus the Sufis, the mystics of Islam - say these words of wisdom: "Die before you die!" By this they mean that in such people a new conscious orientation should take place which effects so that the consciousness then would much more be connected to the principle of synchronicity instead to causality. This letting go of old tried and true, this giving up of the power principle, of "Where there's a will there's a way!" works like an elixier vitae. Such people begin a second life which falls under the principle of synchronicity. I call it Synchronicity Quest, which means that they begin to let theirselves be lead by coincidences and to take assistance from their dreams in order to learn to understand wherein the way of life further leads. In greatly critical moments synchronicities come to pass which show the real goal of life, which can not be found by will and causalistic thinking.

Experience shows that such synchronicities work negentropically, meaning that they build new psychic energy fields out of which further new life possibilities emerge. People grow in this manner and those who take their dreams and synchronicities seriously have a chance to lead a life filled with a new and deeper meaning. Thereby they have simultaneously overcome the paradigma of causality while entering into a new age of synchronicity which appears on the horizon of the new millennium.
Quote

http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/synchronicity_jung.htm

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Originally Posted by Metatron

What I believe we are all searching for is a central governing principal of life, that can help us to understand how life systems self-organized in the past, so that we may better adapt our own self-organizing potential as humans for the future.

Wrong. I am not searching for that, therefore it is false to say we are all searching for that. I grant you it is true that you believe we are all searching for that.

One thing I am searching for is why you continue to post your rambling, ill-conceieved, poorly presented, magically imbued, unsubstantiated speculation in forum after forum.

I see in this instance you are drifting even further from any scientific content towards a more mystical position, replete with high sounding phrases and terminology that likely mean little more to you than they do to your readers.

Those who are unfamiliar with your nonsense will doubtless feel I am being harsh, but having endured your speculations in the past, having tried to engage in sensible discussion, but having been met by wave after wave of loose thinking, misunderstanding, disregard for evidence, ignorance of scientific method and like offenses, I have no inclination to pursue this further. I do reserve the right to poke and prod at every post you make, until either you make sense or cease posting.

Edit: Admin/Mod - I am not quite sure how to request a move of a thread. I know the request is not meant to be made within a post, but I am using that method for lack of another. Could you consider moving this thread to pseudo-science, on the grounds that that is what it has become, or split of Metatron's post into a separate pseudo-science thread.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by Metatron

What I believe we are all searching for is a central governing principal of life, that can help us to understand how life systems self-organized in the past, so that we may better adapt our own self-organizing potential as humans for the future.

Wrong. I am not searching for that, therefore it is false to say we are all searching for that. I grant you it is true that you believe we are all searching for that.

One thing I am searching for is why you continue to post your rambling, ill-conceieved, poorly presented, magically imbued, unsubstantiated speculation in forum after forum.

I see in this instance you are drifting even further from any scientific content towards a more mystical position, replete with high sounding phrases and terminology that likely mean little more to you than they do to your readers.

Those who are unfamiliar with your nonsense will doubtless feel I am being harsh, but having endured your speculations in the past, having tried to engage in sensible discussion, but having been met by wave after wave of loose thinking, misunderstanding, disregard for evidence, ignorance of scientific method and like offenses, I have no inclination to pursue this further. I do reserve the right to poke and prod at every post you make, until either you make sense or cease posting.

Edit: Admin/Mod - I am not quite sure how to request a move of a thread. I know the request is not meant to be made within a post, but I am using that method for lack of another. Could you consider moving this thread to pseudo-science, on the grounds that that is what it has become, or split of Metatron's post into a separate pseudo-science thread.

I see no need to dismiss non-linear models just because someone can only think in a mechanistic way, any more that dismissing Darwinian natural selection in the light of the emerging field of quantum biology.

What I am suggesting is that the future of science and our existence will rely on our ability to think of casual effects in a geometric way, were an action resonates in several directions at once. This ability to see these patterns in nature not only reflect how nature really operates but is also a reflection of our ability to evolve.

Quote
The human understanding is no dry light, but receives infusion from the will and affections;
Whence proceed sciences which may be called “ science of the would.” For what a man rather were true he more readily believes. Therefore he rejects difficult things from impatiens of research; sober thing, because they narrow hope; the deeper things of nature, from superstition; the light of experience, from arrogance and pride; things not commonly believed, out of deference of opinion of the vulgar. Numberless in short are ways, and sometimes imperceptible, in which the affections color and infect the understanding.

Francis Bacon
Novum Orgonon
{1620}

Ophiolite

Those who are unfamiliar with your nonsense will doubtless feel I am being harsh, but having endured your speculations in the past, having tried to engage in sensible discussion, but having been met by wave after wave of loose thinking, misunderstanding, disregard for evidence, ignorance of scientific method and like offenses, I have no inclination to pursue this further. I do reserve the right to poke and prod at every post you make, until either you make sense or cease posting.

Written by a real biologist that also understands chaos theory;

“Just wanted to say that I for one appreciate your input here, Metatron.

While much of systems and self-organizational complexity science is relatively "new" to many of us, it is still based on sound and even ancient principles, and it is definitely a trans-disciplinary approach, as it should be.

In other words, I can think of little else in science that has demonstrated the feasibility of the Hermetic axiom of "As above, so below" (and visa-versa) so eloquently. Not only that, but chaos and complexity is providing us with insight not only in regard to the inner workings of living systems, but in regard to everything from the local to the global, and from the sub-atomic to the universal...and in such diverse areas as physics (plasma, particle, geo-, astro-)evolution and biology, economics, ecology, meteorology,and even sociology...and the list of possible applications keeps growing.

Still in its infancy, I believe that much of what Metatron has provided here as a somewhat "initial exposure" for many, will become far more prevalent and generally understood in just a couple of decades.”

I apologies if I confused the subject of the thread without a proper reference.

Quantum evolution

Einstein could never abandon causation ("God does not play dice") and spent most of his later career trying to find a way out of the quantum world.

But quantum mechanics prevailed, even against Einstein's intellect, because of its vast explanatory power. Quantum mechanics accounts for phenomena from the hardness of metals to why the sun shines. It explains things that you probably didn't think needed explaining, like why you don't fall through the floor. In my book, 'Quantum Evolution' I propose that quantum mechanics was also the missing ingredient in the primordial soup that sparked the origin of life. Cosmologists believe that h can even account for the origin of the universe. Heisenberg's principle tells us that even empty space contains enough uncertainty to include the possibility that there is actually something there. In quantum mechanics, matter and energy simply pop out of the h-shaped packages of uncertainty that exist in empty space. And that's precisely how quantum cosmologists describe the big bang, as 'a random quantum fluctuation from nothing'. So on h's birthday, we should remember that good things come in small packages.

Johnjoe McFadden

http://www.surrey.ac.uk/qe/articles/...%20Jan2001.htm



It appears is that nature hired its architect first {quantum mechanics} its interior designer second, {genetic probabilities} Just as we would in building a structure.


So I walk on the uplands unbound ,

And know that there is hope

For that which Thou didst mold out of dust

To have consort with things eternal.

--- The dead sea scrolls

Information is composed of order; this order collapses around a preexisting possibility of order.

As Pythagoras said “eternal true forms” these eternal true forms exist as inherent inevitabilities…a basin of attraction..……a singularity.

Originally Posted by Metatron

I see no need to dismiss non-linear models just because someone can only think in a mechanistic way, any more that dismissing Darwinian natural selection in the light of the emerging field of quantum biology.

What I am suggesting is that the future of science and our existence will rely on our ability to think of casual effects in a geometric way, were an action resonates in several directions at once. This ability to see these patterns in nature not only reflect how nature really operates but is also a reflection of our ability to evolve.

The correlation in the first post escapes me [unless you are using chiasma and meant 'to dismiss' rather than 'dismissing'?], but I would be interested in a good link to the fundamentals of the emerging field of quantum biology.

While the need to consider 'causal effects in a geometric way' is obvious, you seem to be implying that this is a new thing. I would disagree; but it is difficult to design experiments to test effects 'geometrically'.

I think that one difficulty people may be having with your style of communication is that like poetry it is so loaded with meaning and implications that it can be overwhelming at first. I have reorganized your comments a bit for the covenience of my responding. forgive me.

Originally Posted by Metatron

What I believe we are all searching for is a central governing principal of life, that can help us to understand how life systems self-organized in the past, so that we may better adapt our own self-organizing potential as humans for the future.

Say rather that it is something we should be searching for. But if you were trying to characterize my comments, then I cannot deny the accuracy of your description.

Originally Posted by Metatron

To recognize developing currents between existing components, that can relate to a larger view. One that links us to inherent aspects of nature.
Then to redirect our energies spent on outdated models, by acknowledging governing dynamics beyond our illusionary ideas of control.

You will find that the illusion of control is a common theme in my posts, especially as a fallacy of thought about free will. People confuse the idea of freedom of choice with the freedom of control. We can only choose our immediate reaction but the idea of choosing the future course of events is an illusion.

Originally Posted by Metatron

Allowing these creative elements to manifest by simply providing a environment conducive to these archetypal currents.

You need to explain this one.

Originally Posted by Metatron

I believe what I have discovered written in the record of the earth can help us. This Second ring of life. A pre-emergent synergy that sparked the Cambrian explosion. This dynamic represented by a fossilized embryonic form containing a confluence of environmental elements, that represent not only the birth of life in the distant past, but reflects our present stage of development as a civilization.

I have attributed the Cambrian explosion with the inevitable realization of the potential to be found within the advent of sexual reproduction and multicelular cooperation. But not being a biologist I am no doubt oversimplifying things.

Originally Posted by Metatron

A sudden convergence of environmental components captured in a fluid self-assembling point that crystallizes into a nexus. Though this ancient lens a new source of information is emerging. I can now see the underlying order in the chaos that surrounds us. Though this "Vesica attractor" I now understand that we our entering a predestined phase of evolution. An unimaginable new world. The third ring of life , A dynamic brought into motion by our accumulated complexity and diversity.

You are very optimistic. I think that survival is alway balanced on the edge of a knife. Even in this next stage of evolution that we are in, survival and elimination are very real aspects of the process. Because the earth only has room for one community of man, the issue of survival has become a stark yes or no question. We all sink or swim together. We will either make the leap to an intellegent communal organism or succumb to our stupidity and destroy ourselves. The violent suspense of the evolutionary process has not abated in the least bit.

Originally Posted by Metatron

The question we must now ask is, can we work together at bringing to life this potential for creating a new world? Can we connect ourselves in a vibrant cohesive whole in such a way that creativity and networks of cooperation become the new paradigm, rather than fear and control?

When the dolphin jumps, it is saying, I am dolphin, this is how I jump!
When the sparrow sings it is saying, I am sparrow this is my song.
What sound are gesture can express our humanness ?
How can each of us find our place in this sea of self making and experience this new world..... that is about to come to pass.

Ok so you do admit that our success is in question. But you are far more optimistic that most people. You seem to be caught up in the excitement of the vision of what is possible.

Originally Posted by Metatron

A new paradigm that combines scientific logic, to heart felt beliefs of a divine source, from which we all emerged.
What I am attempted to bring to light is a model based on fossil evidence, that shows life was not just driven into existence by processes of elimination, But was more precisely born from a unity of converging worlds that spiraled together suddenly and exponentially in an environment balanced by stability and renewal.
We beings are manifestations of these universal aspects of nature, unified into a nexus of harmony’s. A music of the spheres expressed in living forms. It seems apparent that these are the true rings of power inherent in the universe and represent a sustainable paradigm for life.

Ah yes. I think your optimism comes from faith. And I think that you are right in thinking/feeling that faith holds an important key to success (which in this case is a matter of survival). We are like a person whose rational, emotional, social and religious aspects of personality are all at war, where each of these parts cannot see the value of the other parts. If the rational could only see the simple pragmatic value of faith in the everyday operation of life much of the tension could be healed. The religious can be conservative and stubborn but I believe that reason tempered with love will carry more weight.

Metatron wrote:

Allowing these creative elements to manifest by simply providing a environment conducive to these archetypal currents.

mitchellmckain wrote:

You need to explain this one.

Archetypal currents can be thought of as the pull of the singularity. The silicon chip, carbon based DNA are examples of singularities, an inevitable point of organization that form around the flow of Quantum information.



Einstein predicted the existence of black holes before their discovery, how, he knew that with time gravity and mass these points of order must form. We now know that these points initiate more order around them creating stars the periodic table of elements, planets, life.

All I am doing is studying these patterns of organization and applying them to the past, present and future.

Singularity’s ; The Tao of quantum evolution.

I believe, from what I am seeing around me, and comparing this to emergent systems of the past, we are entering an evolutionary event that will not rely on any sort of prior plan of science, or control of institution of any kind, but will occur as a natural Tao, or way, inherent in information itself.

We are at this moment circling around the event horizon of a great confluence, one that will integrate human biological \cognitive function with computer networks.
This formation of networks that create a higher ordered state is a natural evolutionary process that can be seen within the lens of the vesica attractor model.

The correlation in the first post escapes me [unless you are using chiasma and meant 'to dismiss' rather than 'dismissing'?], but I would be interested in a good link to the fundamentals of the emerging field of quantum biology.

The correlation is that it has been suggested that my use of chaos and quantum mechanics should be dismissed as non-science and moved to pseudoscience .

While the need to consider 'causal effects in a geometric way' is obvious, you seem to be implying that this is a new thing. I would disagree; but it is difficult to design experiments to test effects 'geometrically'

.


Non-linear thinking is new to most of us. Theorist of course have always thought in these terms.

Combining systems theory with quantum mechanics to amend Neo-Darwinian models is new to most everyone.

Ophiolite: rambling, ill-, poorly presented, magically imbued, unsubstantiated speculation in forum after forum.

I have presented two original adaptive models on this forum, one on bird flight and the other on metamorphoses and insect flight both these models based on non-linear dynamics.

If you think that my models are ill-conceived then debate me and maybe I can find a better way to present this material, this is my intent.

I am not here to act superior, build alliances, name call, or bully anyone. My only goal is to improve and expand my knowledge of science.

These are noble goals. Now put your money where your mouth is and explain clearly and in detail the mechanisms that are at work, without resorting to undefined jargon - i.e. if you are going to use jargon then define it clearly at the outset.
All I have seen in forum after forum are poorly presented, ill-conceived ideas. Prove me wrong. I like being proved wrong. I welcome it. It is refreshing. It opens up new horizons. But you have to do the work on this Metatron, not me.
And you have to address the questions that are posed, not run away from them.
I'm waiting.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

These are noble goals. Now put your money where your mouth is and explain clearly and in detail the mechanisms that are at work, without resorting to undefined jargon - i.e. if you are going to use jargon then define it clearly at the outset.
All I have seen in forum after forum are poorly presented, ill-conceived ideas. Prove me wrong. I like being proved wrong. I welcome it. It is refreshing. It opens up new horizons. But you have to do the work on this Metatron, not me.
And you have to address the questions that are posed, not run away from them.
I'm waiting.

Those are ignoble goads, and I have put my money up front on this forum.
Two evolutionary models, one on bird flight, one on insect flight.
I have answered both of your comments on these threads, so actually you have to address the answers that are posed, not run away from them.
I'm waiting.




goad;
An agent or means of prodding or urging; a stimulus.

ig·no·ble
adj.
Not noble in quality, character, or purpose; base or mean.

Originally Posted by Metatron

Metatron wrote:

Allowing these creative elements to manifest by simply providing a environment conducive to these archetypal currents.

mitchellmckain wrote:

You need to explain this one.

Archetypal currents can be thought of as the pull of the singularity. The silicon chip, carbon based DNA are examples of singularities, an inevitable point of organization that form around the flow of Quantum information.

Well your explaination did not anwer me so much as reading the synchronicity Jung link which I suddenly remembered and realized that this was the only way I was going to figure out what you were talking about. It points to a somewhat non-rational way of seeing the world. I think my father would understand you better than I do. I am devoted to the rational approach although I try to stretch it beyond traditional boundaries and to make people more aware of its limitations.

Originally Posted by Metatron

Einstein predicted the existence of black holes before their discovery, how, he knew that with time gravity and mass these points of order must form. We now know that these points initiate more order around them creating stars the periodic table of elements, planets, life.

A bit of an exageration, I think. We do not know that all galaxies have black holes in their center and I have never heard anyone propose that these are ultimately responsible for galaxy formation and thus their attendent star formation, etc. But then I am thinking cause and effect like a scientist.

Originally Posted by Metatron

All I am doing is studying these patterns of organization and applying them to the past, present and future.

Singularity’s ; The Tao of quantum evolution.

I believe, from what I am seeing around me, and comparing this to emergent systems of the past, we are entering an evolutionary event that will not rely on any sort of prior plan of science, or control of institution of any kind, but will occur as a natural Tao, or way, inherent in information itself.

We are at this moment circling around the event horizon of a great confluence, one that will integrate human biological \cognitive function with computer networks.
This formation of networks that create a higher ordered state is a natural evolutionary process that can be seen within the lens of the vesica attractor model.

Again I think your view of this process as inevitable is a reflection of your faith. But from a rational point of view there is nothing inevitable about it. There are many chaotic attractors on our path. After all, death is one of the more common attractors in the living process. I think this attractor you envision is surrounded by many of this type (death and destruction)and the chaos of our situation makes choosing a path which avoid these impossible. But I suppose you are saying that trying to choose a path is part of our problem. It is the limitations of scientific causality that real control would require specifying the initial conditions to an infinite degree of precision. This makes trying to manipulate events by means of such conditions a exercise in self delusion. But although I can clearly see that a new way is needed or desirable, rationality is still the language that my mind speaks. All I can do is try to understand and to explain as best I can.

Of course I don't know that Metatron is right but I don't know that he is wrong either, in which case it costs me nothing to keep an open mind.

mitchellmckain wrote:
Again I think your view of this process as inevitable is a reflection of your faith. But from a rational point of view there is nothing inevitable about it. There are many chaotic attractors on our path.

It is the limitations of scientific causality that real control would require specifying the initial conditions to an infinite degree of precision. This makes trying to manipulate events by means of such conditions a exercise in self delusion. But although I can clearly see that a new way is needed or desirable, rationality is still the language that my mind speaks. All I can do is try to understand and to explain as best I can.

the complexity we observe developing is only a temporal view of a system that contains a duality, this duality giving the other its contextual meaning.

Complexity in its final form, does not exist as a prior form, but as an eternal form. A singularity .

What we observe as time and movement between a simple ordered state and higher ordered state is merely a cognitive movement between the two aspects of time, one of eternity, Were all things are complete forms and the temporal state of becoming.


Let me approach this from architectural view point. When building a structure using regular geometry, small mistakes in the initial measurements will be amplified as the construction progresses, until a point is reached were the initial small instability surpasses and overwhelms the stability factors causing a catastrophic collapse, destroying the intended design.

Vesica Attractor
Now catastrophe theory combined with phi-wave quantum dynamics embedded within a dissipating matrix is were this scenario happens in reverse.
The instant all the physical and dynamic elements arrive they cause a catastrophic constructive collapse toward a higher ordered state, in this particular scenario the attractor forms around water waves. Initial instabilities become creative as they are compresses by the horizontal “whirlwind” or phi-waves dynamics. This state of creative instability is referred to as “edge of chaos” Coined by Doyne Farmer this state exist between the chaotic regime and the order regime. These attractors self-construct, by generating a circular vortex drawing energy from its environment. Most of these forms are short lived as in actual vortexes of just wind and water.


The reason I keep comparing the vesica attractor to a black hole is because they both form stable attractors one though gravity, the other though cognition. These two forces seem to be the only way to stabilizing a point in the quantum field.

This math is central to evolution, it is how biological systems self organize, and evolve.
You need to look no further than this math to understand how life evolves.

It is the geometry of creation.

This scenario is counter intuitive because it is completely diametrically opposed to how we believe the universe operates.
These two forces of gravity and cognition seem to emanate from the eternal source creating what we perceive as time and movement between past and future.

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mitchellmckain wrote:

After all, death is one of the more common attractors in the living process. I think this attractor you envision is surrounded by many of this type (death and destruction)and the chaos of our situation makes choosing a path which avoid these impossible. But I suppose you are saying that trying to choose a path is part of our problem.

The driving force in life are dualities, up down, right left, positive negative, past and future.
These dualities create currents between one another to create movement. All these
dualities can be traced to one source, a singularity. A finality

Cognition, is a exponential flow of information within a biological system around the dual singularities of birth and death, in the context of human awareness this can be thought of as existential angst.

The main driving force’s in one's life is between the known and the unknown. The archetypal current of all human uncertainty is between life and death.

Hamlet ; , act III, William Shakespeare

"But that the dread of something after death, the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns, puzzles the will, and makes us rather bear those ills we have than fly to others we know not of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all, and thus the native hue of resolution is sicklied over with a pale cast of thought, and enterprises of great pitch and moment with this regard their currents tury awry and lose the name of action."

When Shakespeare writes “ the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns ” he is referring to the event horizon that surrounds the singularity of death, an unknown that cannot be known without a prior irreversible acquiescence. This is what makes Hamlet such a classical story.

Hamlet was driven by the need to resolve his fathers death. The pain he experienced in his “to be are not to be” speech is the embodiment of this existential angst generated between the uncertainty of the past and future. The known and unknown.

This tension is the crux of the play, and embodies this pull of the singularity. This ever present tension he was feeling between resolving past events with the future.
“Something's rotten in the state of Denmark” The same force that was moving creating emotional tension in Hamlet, keeps the ones watching the play pressed into their seats to see the final outcome.....The singularity.....the end.

mitchellmckain wrote:
Well your explaination did not anwer me so much as reading the synchronicity Jung link which I suddenly remembered and realized that this was the only way I was going to figure out what you were talking about. It points to a somewhat non-rational way of seeing the world. I think my father would understand you better than I do.I am devoted to the rational approach although I try to stretch it beyond traditional boundaries and to make people more aware of its limitations.

The most profound story I’ve ever read comes one from one of Carlos Castaneda’s books, I can’t recall which one, but it was like many of his “Tales of eternity” they always hint at more than they actually say .

This one starts with the old shaman Don Juan and his apprentice the anthropology student Carlos observing some desert creatures as they scurried about in the desert chaparral.

Don Juan commented that a man could survive in the dessert by hunting those animals, But first you would need to study them and know their habits.
He explain how they followed a pattern that could be mapped as a circle around a burrow. Once these feeding cycles are learned snares could be set and escape routes could be routed, so the animals own cyclical behavior became its venerability.
But he warned his apprentice, as you follow these behaviors and set your snares every day in the same way, you also make yourself venerable because you too are being observed.
He said there were predators even more attuned to theses circular patterns of the dessert, so some day something could be waiting for you along one of your well worn paths.

He went on to say that there existed in nature an ultimate balance between awareness of these cyclical movements in the world and a spontaneity of action in ones self, an unpredictability that wells up from the spirit.
Once this balance is achieved the hunter becomes a “magical warrior.”
“A magical warrior can never be trapped” don Juan said or “be caught without an escape route,” because he can never be reduced to behaviors .

This “warrior’s path” are no longer connected to cycles of the world, but of the spirit, thus he can always “see” what is coming without being seen himself.

Also, he said there existed in the world animals “magical creatures.” that have achieved this balance.

Don Juan recounted that he himself had achieved this state as a young man and became a magical warrior, and seemed to always know instinctively what to do in any situation, until one day he was hunting on a heavily forested ridge top. He remembered hearing a strange sound that sent shivers though his body.

He knew instinctively that he was to about to have an encounter with a magical creature, and for the first time since he had reached this state he had no clue what to do.

So he did the most illogical thing. He stood on his head and began to cry, after some time he felt something breathing in his ear, he fell over in a sitting position and looked up at the most beautiful deer that he had ever seen, and then it spoke “ Why are you crying ?” the deer inquired “ Because I'm sad ” Don Juan heard himself reply, then he remembered the deer lowered his head and said very clearly “ Don’t be sad ” and ambled away.

After listening to Don Juan’s story, Carlos, being an anthropologist and a man of logic and science, replied that the story was ridicules “deer’s do not talk !” he said “I know I know” the old shaman replied “It was the damnedest thing.”
--------------------------

A bit of an exageration, I think. We do not know that all galaxies have black holes in their center and I have never heard anyone propose that these are ultimately responsible for galaxy formation and thus their attendent star formation, etc. But then I am thinking cause and effect like a scientist.

Scientists: Black Hole Helps Spawn Stars
Oct 14 2005 - ABC News
Astronomers say the mysterious, massive black hole at the center of the Milky Way helped give birth to new stars, challenging earlier theories that black holes are solely destructive forces. “Massive black holes are usually known for violence and destruction," explained Sergei Nayakshin of the University of Leicester in England, who made the discovery. "So it's remarkable that this black hole helped create new stars, not just destroy them." The new find may also help scientists better understand the physics of black holes, according to a theoretical astrophysics professor not associated with the study.

Originally Posted by Metatron

The correlation in the first post escapes me [unless you are using chiasma and meant 'to dismiss' rather than 'dismissing'?], but I would be interested in a good link to the fundamentals of the emerging field of quantum biology.

The correlation is that it has been suggested that my use of chaos and quantum mechanics should be dismissed as non-science and moved to pseudoscience .

I noticed that; I have been reading the thread. The correlation I do not understand is between 'non-linear models' and 'Darwinian natural selection', but perhaps your meaning was lost between the infinitive and the participle.

Am I to assume that you are unwilling, or unable, to supply the requested reference?

Originally Posted by Metatron

While the need to consider 'causal effects in a geometric way' is obvious, you seem to be implying that this is a new thing. I would disagree; but it is difficult to design experiments to test effects 'geometrically'

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Non-linear thinking is new to most of us. Theorist of course have always thought in these terms.

Combining systems theory with quantum mechanics to amend Neo-Darwinian models is new to most everyone.

Non-linear thinking is natural to all of us; children think in this mode. The linear thinking taught during early socialization and education can severely inhibit this ability. Fortunately, close involvement with infants and children can restore it.

And are you willing to comment on how ammending neodarwinian models is new, rather than just fine-tuning an existing model?

Or will continue to dimiss my interest with condescension?

but I would be interested in a good link to the fundamentals of the emerging field of quantum biology.

Am I to assume that you are unwilling, or unable, to supply the requested reference?

Sorry, been pressed for time.

The author of this has also written a book I am currently reading called Quantum Evolution.


The origin of all life
The Guardian, February 10th, 2000
We are on the brink of a new adventure - quantum biology - that will bring about the synthesis of physical and biological sciences through quantum mechanics.
TV's Castaway gives us that most ancient of battles: man (and woman) against the elements. We watch fascinated as gale force winds rip the roofs from flimsy shelters and expose the stranded city slickers to the same forces that drove the natives to flee the Scottish island several decades ago. What makes the story so fascinating is the frailty of life versus the brutality of the inanimate world. But why is there such contrast? We are after all made of the same materials, driven by the same chemical reactions as the rest of the planet. Why is life so special?
The scholars of the ancient world had an answer: life contained an extra ingredient - a spirit or soul. Modern science has no truck with such mysticism, but given the staggering complexity of living cells, nagging doubts remain. Even the simplest self-replicating organisms - a class of bacteria known as mycoplasmas - contain many hundreds of genes; each made up of more than a thousand different genetic instructions. How did such complexity emerge?
The standard "primordial soup" explanation is that life starts from a rich mix of chemicals sloshing through the early seas. Researchers in the 1950s even managed to make simple building blocks of life - amino acids - by simulating conditions they thought prevailed on the early Earth. But hundreds of primordial soup experiments later, scientists are not significantly closer to the goal of generating a self-replicating organism in the laboratory.
As the Taransay castaways grit their teeth and turn their faces towards the North Atlantic storms, we should bear a thought for the strange world of quantum mechanics. It is this, I believe, that for four billion years has provided living organisms with the will to challenge their environment.
Quantum mechanics is a science so strange that even Einstein could never accept its implications. Yet it is built upon very simple observations. One is known as the "double-slit experiment". If light is shone though a pair of slits then the emerging light will illuminate a series of light and dark bands on a screen. These bands, known as interference patterns, are manifestations of the wave nature of light, and are formed when light waves passing through both slits emerge as two beams that recombine to either reinforce each other (peaks march in step - light bands) or cancel each other out (peaks meet troughs - dark bands).
That light behaves as a wave is perhaps not too surprising. What is far more challenging to understand is how particles manage the same trick. Fire single atoms through the pair of slits and the pattern formed by their collisions with the screen adds up to the same kind of interference patterns as you see with light.
Waves generate interference patterns because they can pass through the two slits simultaneously. But how can a single atom be in two places at once? Nobody knows.
And the world that emerges from the physicists' efforts is not the one we know. Today, one of the most popular interpretations, and one that has the backing of Nobel prize-winning physicists, is that a multiverse exists in which everything that can happen does happen.
Although our conscious self inhabits only one branch of the multiverse - our own universe - fundamental particles inhabit the entire multiverse and it is this property that allows them to be in two places at once. Each place is in its own parallel universe.
But, you may say, the world we see is just not like that. How can atoms be in two places yet bigger objects, though made of atoms, can't?
At least part of the answer seems to be that the quantum mechanical weirdness that allows particles to occupy different states simultaneously is itself wavy. For bulky objects, whose dynamics is an average of billions of particles, the peaks and troughs tend to average to zero, cancelling out the quantum weirdness. This is why the big objects we can see hardly ever show quantum effects.
The form and dynamics of every living organism on this planet is controlled by a single molecule of DNA. Recent experiments suggest that size alone is not a bar to quantum behaviour. A group based in Vienna have recently fired fullerene molecules through the double slit experiment and demonstrated that these particles have no problem in sailing through both slits simultaneously.
And fullerene is big - 60 carbon atoms in a cage-like structure, the famous "buckyball" molecule - with a diameter similar to that of the DNA double helix. If fullerene can enter the quantum multiverse then the microscopic constituents of our own cells, including DNA, are in there as well.
That the genetic code may inhabit the quantum multiverse has startling implications. The driving force of evolution is mutations; it is they that provide the variation that is honed by natural selection into evolutionary paths.
But the motion of fundamental particles, electrons and protons, cause mutations. If these particles can enter quantum states, then DNA may also be able to slip into the quantum multiverse and sample multiple mutational states simultaneously.
From our viewpoint, inhabiting only one universe, the cell that emerges from the multiverse may seem to "choose" advantageous mutations. This is of course heresy for standard Darwinism but ex periments performed a decade ago suggest that under some circumstances, bacteria may be able to "choose" which genes to mutate. Quantum evolution may be the answer.
Quantum evolution may also account for that greatest puzzle of biology - how life began. The astronomer Fred Hoyle described the likelihood of random forces generating life as equivalent to the chances that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747.
The world is just not big enough to evolve life if it relied entirely on chance. But if the earliest strivings towards life were not in the conventional universe, but in the quantum multiverse, then these objections do not arise. Any small primordial pond could generate life, if it had access to the quantum multiverse. Life may be the product, not of a single universe, but a host of parallel universes.
So although our bodies inhabit the familiar world dominated by random motion, the microscopic units that drive our cells tread the multiverse. This, I believe, is what gives life its extraordinary dynamics and its ability to resist the randomising forces that assail it. Those same dynamics, though involving electromagnetic fields within our brain rather than DNA, are also, I believe, the source of our free will - but that's another story.
Johnjoe McFadden

Non-linear thinking is natural to all of us; children think in this mode. The linear thinking taught during early socialization and education can severely inhibit this ability. Fortunately, close involvement with infants and children can restore it

.

Interesting

And are you willing to comment on how ammending neodarwinian models is new, rather than just fine-tuning an existing model?

The context of this amending of evolutionary models has to do with the shift toward cooperative networks as opposed to the competitive.


A good example are these forums, I’ve noticed that when people are sincerely trying to connect, information begins to flow in a very synchronistic way, pieces of the individuals own puzzles begin to fall into place for everyone.

Now for any one sincerely interested in understanding this new paradigm do the following, read the story of the two men above talking in the desert about the cycles of the world, and then read the article above on Quantum biology.

If you can see that they are speaking of the same phenomenon you will take a leap in understanding the underlying dynamics of the universe.

But you are going to need to use both sides of your brain.

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

A bit of an exageration, I think. We do not know that all galaxies have black holes in their center and I have never heard anyone propose that these are ultimately responsible for galaxy formation and thus their attendent star formation, etc. But then I am thinking cause and effect like a scientist.

I only just spotted this. You are doubtless a physicist, but clearly no astrophysicist. You appear to be unfamiliar with the concept of co-evolution as it pertains to galaxies and black holes.
The debate over the relationship between black holes and galaxy formation has been ongoing for at least ten years. Over the last three or four years the swing has undoubtedly been towards the concept that galaxies form around super massive black holes.
For someone who disapproves of debate you appear to indulge in it quite often.

Metatron: As soon as the word, "multiverse' is used, the discussion descends into the not scientific. There is no such scientific model being used, which involves or defines 'multiverse'.

Your posts are using words, but you are not using the scientific words correctly, nor does the use of your 'other' words state anything which means anything necessarily scientific. One suspects you have only a cursory scientific training, because your posts evince no depth of understanding either of the physical or biological sciences.

Opening with the phrase, quantum biology, and then not providing a single, clear example of it and the means to identify further examples of it, simply shows, in plain terms, that there is little scientific about your post.

Had you stated that some biological systems, viz. enzymes, use quantum tunneling, in part, to work, then you might get away with it. But as you did not, and frankly, doubt you've ever heard of this, one rather doubts the legitimacy of your claims.

One recalls those who state that the brain works according to quantum physics and then do not state a single instance of where that clearly occurs, nor define any events which can be tested for it. In other words, it's mostly empty of scientific content, which pretty much sums up your posts.

These rather clearly fit into the Woo-Woo Credo category, where they use 'quantum' abundantly, and without any clear reference to anything real or existing. Referring again to the Woo-Woo Credo, rather characterizes your posts as being in that category.

Your posts belong, most properly & probably, in the quasi- or pseudo-scientific topics. Not here. Frankly, I've read not a jot of scientific data which supports your rather, undefined, unclear, rather not-scientific posts. I don't expect this sort of thing to change. :wink:

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

A bit of an exageration, I think. We do not know that all galaxies have black holes in their center and I have never heard anyone propose that these are ultimately responsible for galaxy formation and thus their attendent star formation, etc. But then I am thinking cause and effect like a scientist.

I only just spotted this. You are doubtless a physicist, but clearly no astrophysicist. You appear to be unfamiliar with the concept of co-evolution as it pertains to galaxies and black holes.
The debate over the relationship between black holes and galaxy formation has been ongoing for at least ten years. Over the last three or four years the swing has undoubtedly been towards the concept that galaxies form around super massive black holes.
For someone who disapproves of debate you appear to indulge in it quite often.

I am so happy for you. You must be delighted. You found something you thought you could turn into a personal attack and insult, so you could lure me into one of your meaningless personal debates. But no I am not an astrophysics expert only a student of atrophysics. I am under no illusion that I know everything, and I am delighted that Metatron could enlighten me. I wish you could to, but sadly you only seem capable of informing people of the faults in your character.

I reveal faults in my personality too. It is possible to bait me. Sometimes I cannot resist retaliating. But I don't really enjoy it like you do.

Edit: When I re-read this later, I cannot see the justification for my hostility. I think accumulated annoyance at the author made me over-react. I think that another reason why I don't like this type of debate is that I don't like the person I become when I participate.

These rather clearly fit into the Woo-Woo Credo category, where they use 'quantum' abundantly, and without any clear reference to anything real or existing. Referring again to the Woo-Woo Credo, rather characterizes your posts as being in that category.

Steve, this is a field of study is taken seriously in the scientific community and is based on very well established models along with emerging models, Quantum mechanics, relativity, string theory, ect.
It may actually become the model glue that that binds them all together.
If you are looking for links that will easily explain how quantum physics underlie biological and cognitive systems your best bet is amazon.com.
I can provide a book list if your seriously interested.


But if I had to condense this concept down to a sound bight:

At the center of every particle exist a singularity composed of eternity that encompasses all time which is beyond time. These threads or strings, if we chose to look at it that way, connects all forms and appears from the temporal view to create order with time, but of course is an illusion, and are actually assembled around eternal forms that are beyond form and time. These vibrating points of order, if we chose to look at them that way, build complexity as they oscillate between the eternal and the temporal, which creates time- particles- life and cognition that can experience this oscillation as time.
Around these vortexes, which is how I chose to see them, exist a confluence of the eternal and the temporal that connect every particle to every other particle in a coherent fractal hierarchy from the elemental to the highest complexity.

Confused, welcome to the quantum world. :?

This interpretation is just mine, for this moment in time, and will form further as I approach the singularity. :wink:

If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.
Niels Bohr

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I'm afraid I must agree with Steve on this.

I split this thread out of the Biology subforum's Next Stage in Human Evolution.

The topic of the above thread is one that I think could earn some serious discussion and the quantum mumbo-jumbo has been moved until such time as someone can quantify or qualify it's placement elsewhere.