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  1. #1 Boris Johnson 
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    Appears that he's got away with it again.
    I need help to understand how.
    It was supposed to be one more strike and he's out.
    Is it something to do with how he divides his own party?


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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Appears that he's got away with it again.
    I need help to understand how.
    It was supposed to be one more strike and he's out.
    Is it something to do with how he divides his own party?
    Unless it is blatantly criminal, it is all political. That is where the answer usually resides.

    What is his public support, and what is his party's support level?

    These things will usually tell about what is going on.

    Apathy of the masses is not an uncommon reason for politicians sliding by.


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    I don't think we would see the Prime Minister continually saying we should wait for the results of the inquiry, if he wasn't completely sure that the hand-picked civil servant in charge will exonerate him.

    What does a government do when it's in trouble? Hold a public enquiry, magically, all the facts of the case become irrelevant and only whether the inquiry finds wrong doing seems to matter, yet such inquiries rarely find wrong doing, and it's almost unheard of for them to find that a Prime Minister has transgressed.

    Yet the facts remain, everybody in the country now knows what happened over this incident, if the Prime Minister doesn't face any consequences, I think we'll be seeing an even bigger scandal brewing. That of the government enacting laws for the public that they were deliberately, not subject to. This will only serve to infuriate the public more, at the moment the PM stands accused of ignoring the rules that everybody else had to obey, under penalty of criminal sanction. If it turns out that the government deliberately created laws they didn't have to follow, that truly will mean one law for them and another for the rest us of.

    Today in Prime Minister's Questions I would have liked the PM to have been asked, if all the Covid laws that applied to us also applied to government, and also asked if there was anything else related to Covid rule breaking that the public were not yet aware of.

    The PM has previously denied there were any parties, then changed his story to claim if there were, he was not told about them, despite being in his house and garden whilst he was there, now he's saying he actually attended one. So, I suspect there could be far more yet that the PM isn't telling us.

    Regardless, despite the calls from every opposition leader today for him to resign, the PM seems determined to cling onto power for as long as possible, despite doing huge damage to the Conservative brand and preventing them from moving on or doing any sort of damage control whilst he's stuck at the wheel.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

    Bertrand Russell
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Today in Prime Minister's Questions I would have liked the PM to have been asked, if all the Covid laws that applied to us also applied to government
    I can't think of a time when a question like that was ever asked. The whole House always mark their own homework. A member of the public maybe should be allowed to ask that sort of question from the gallery.
    Johnson will try to ride out the storm just like his hero Churchill.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Today in Prime Minister's Questions I would have liked the PM to have been asked, if all the Covid laws that applied to us also applied to government
    I can't think of a time when a question like that was ever asked. The whole House always mark their own homework. A member of the public maybe should be allowed to ask that sort of question from the gallery.
    Johnson will try to ride out the storm just like his hero Churchill.
    Know nothing about Johnson. Is he an alcoholic? Maybe he needs help, AA. Somebody roll him a doobie if he agrees to lay off the sauce. He might like it. Makes you wonder how many govt decisions worldwide are made with politicians half in the bag? Boris’ biggest problem is getting caught.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Johnson will try to ride out the storm just like his hero Churchill.
    Based on the most recent polling in the U.K., Johnson may be exiting sooner than later.

    The iNews reports today that the Tories are slumping badly*. And this was before Johnson's apology about his "party time" activities.

    Quoting from the article* :

    "A survey for The Times by YouGov, which was carried out before Mr Johnson’s apology at PMQs, put Labour at a 10-point lead ahead of the Tories for the first time in nearly a decade."

    end quote

    Ox, what is your reference to Winston Churchill? He was only PM during the war years (1940 – 1945) and I always thought he was the U.K.'s favorite PM in those times, especially after Chamberlain's fiasco in Munich. Understand they gave him the boot right after the war, but do not recall any problems for him during his term.


    " Tories slump to lowest poll rating against Labour since 2013 but minister says PM can win next election"

    * https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/bo...labour-1398170
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    Although, after the second world war ended Churchill lost the election to Clement Attlee, he reversed the result to be re-elected Prime Minster in 1951 with a 17-seat majority in a closely contested election. These two men would turn out to be the best Prime Ministers in British history, for different reasons.

    Churchill is perhaps rightly regarded as the greatest Britain, without his intervention who knows what the Nazi war machine could have gone on to achieve, especially if they'd developed the atomic bomb and combined it with their rocket technology.
    Clement Attlee by contrast was perhaps the greatest ever peace time Prime Minister, he left a socialist legacy of a welfare state & social safety net that includes the National Health Service.

    Boris Johnson may limp on for a while longer, though I don't think he's worthy to be mentioned alongside the men named above, that's for sure. But to give the man his dues, I don't think he is an alcoholic, though his poor judgement, lack of honesty and perhaps Dominic Cummings continuing to leak misdeeds to the press could eventually be his downfall.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

    Bertrand Russell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Churchill is perhaps rightly regarded as the greatest Britain, without his intervention who knows what the Nazi war machine could have gone on to achieve, especially if they'd developed the atomic bomb and combined it with their rocket technology.
    Agreed. Churchill was a man for the time, determined to defeat the Nazis whatever the cost. I understand he had plans to use poison gas on the English beaches if Operation Sea Lion went forward. Lucky for both sides the RAF decided that matter, very definitively.

    Also, he was the most adamant of Western leaders about the threat posed by Stalin, all during the war, and after. History provides the evidence of that threat. I recall he made a tour of the U.S. shortly after he left office in 1946 where he first used the term "Iron Curtain". It became a powerful symbol of what the West was up against, and likely had a profound impact on all free societies.

    Churchill was certainly a great leader.

    Still would like to hear from Ox on this one. He often has a unique angle on things.
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  10. #9  
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    From the Churchill factor to Johnson factor.

    Churchill by his own admission got more out of alcohol than it did out of him.
    Johnson encourages bring your own booze parties and thinks he can do the same.

    Churchill wrote a history of the British Empire (English speaking peoples).
    Johnson has written a book called The Churchill Factor.

    Johnson is Homeric legend and the Bullingdon Club.
    Who there has not trashed a restaurant and been found paralytic in the gutter afterwards.

    Churchill called Attlee a modest little man with not much to be modest about.
    If Sunak replaces Johnson, he'd better watch out too. He's only 5'5".

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...llying-culture
    Last edited by ox; January 14th, 2022 at 07:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Johnson is Homeric legend and the Bullingdon Club.
    Who there has not trashed a restaurant and been found paralytic in the gutter afterwards.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...llying-culture
    Had never heard of the Bullingdon Club. What a circus of self-serving elitists. Little wonder there is concern over Johnson's reliability to play by the rules. It would appear he ever has!

    Quoting from the above link:

    "The woman who recruited members in Oxford in the 1980s said that she was horrified at the prospect of Johnson becoming prime minister.

    “The characteristics he displayed at Oxford – entitlement, aggression, amorality, lack of concern for others – are still there, dressed up in a contrived, jovial image. It’s a mask to sanitise some ugly features.”"

    end quote

    One should be surprised if he was not having problems of a self-inflicted nature. Not exactly what most would want for a leader of such an important and influential country as the U.K.

    At least Churchill was a functional alcoholic, with some hall-of-fame accomplishments to his credit.

    It appears history will not be so kind to Johnson.

    “Buller, Buller, Buller”!!
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    Looks like the gig's up for the PM, the second week in a row a chorus of opposition MPs ridiculed his excuses at PMQs and called for his resignation.
    Now on to his fourth or is it fifth version of events, difficult to keep track it's changing so often, he's now claiming that the rules he introduced,
    nobody told him what they were, or as one member of parliament put it, claiming to be stupid rather than dishonest.

    The Prime Minister, demonstrating little contrition, again retorted to his now off pat, "we must wait for the results of the inquiry",
    however, in what is sure to be a death knell to any lingering hopes of political survival, David Davis a prominent backbench Tory MP also called on the PM to go
    , even going so far as to quote words ushered to Neville Chamberlain, to add insult to injury.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

    Bertrand Russell
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Looks like the gig's up for the PM, the second week in a row a chorus of opposition MPs ridiculed his excuses at PMQs and called for his resignation.
    Now on to his fourth or is it fifth version of events, difficult to keep track it's changing so often, he's now claiming that the rules he introduced,
    nobody told him what they were, or as one member of parliament put it, claiming to be stupid rather than dishonest.

    The Prime Minister, demonstrating little contrition, again retorted to his now off pat, "we must wait for the results of the inquiry",
    however, in what is sure to be a death knell to any lingering hopes of political survival, David Davis a prominent backbench Tory MP also called on the PM to go
    , even going so far as to quote words ushered to Neville Chamberlain, to add insult to injury.
    Have to say "nobody told me.," feels like a very weak defence of a PM's position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Looks like the gig's up for the PM, the second week in a row a chorus of opposition MPs ridiculed his excuses at PMQs and called for his resignation.
    Now on to his fourth or is it fifth version of events, difficult to keep track it's changing so often, he's now claiming that the rules he introduced,
    nobody told him what they were, or as one member of parliament put it, claiming to be stupid rather than dishonest.

    The Prime Minister, demonstrating little contrition, again retorted to his now off pat, "we must wait for the results of the inquiry",
    however, in what is sure to be a death knell to any lingering hopes of political survival, David Davis a prominent backbench Tory MP also called on the PM to go
    , even going so far as to quote words ushered to Neville Chamberlain, to add insult to injury.
    Have to say "nobody told me.," feels like a very weak defence of a PM's position.
    You are not wrong. Seems to be the done thing these days for right-wing leaders to make excuses and use underhanded tricks to try and stay in power, wonder whose given them the idea that kind of behaviour is acceptable.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

    Bertrand Russell
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't think we would see the Prime Minister continually saying we should wait for the results of the inquiry, if he wasn't completely sure that the hand-picked civil servant in charge will exonerate him.

    What does a government do when it's in trouble? Hold a public enquiry, magically, all the facts of the case become irrelevant and only whether the inquiry finds wrong doing seems to matter, yet such inquiries rarely find wrong doing, and it's almost unheard of for them to find that a Prime Minister has transgressed.

    Yet the facts remain, everybody in the country now knows what happened over this incident, if the Prime Minister doesn't face any consequences, I think we'll be seeing an even bigger scandal brewing. That of the government enacting laws for the public that they were deliberately, not subject to. This will only serve to infuriate the public more, at the moment the PM stands accused of ignoring the rules that everybody else had to obey, under penalty of criminal sanction. If it turns out that the government deliberately created laws they didn't have to follow, that truly will mean one law for them and another for the rest us of.

    Today in Prime Minister's Questions I would have liked the PM to have been asked, if all the Covid laws that applied to us also applied to government, and also asked if there was anything else related to Covid rule breaking that the public were not yet aware of.

    The PM has previously denied there were any parties, then changed his story to claim if there were, he was not told about them, despite being in his house and garden whilst he was there, now he's saying he actually attended one. So, I suspect there could be far more yet that the PM isn't telling us.

    Regardless, despite the calls from every opposition leader today for him to resign, the PM seems determined to cling onto power for as long as possible, despite doing huge damage to the Conservative brand and preventing them from moving on or doing any sort of damage control whilst he's stuck at the wheel.
    From what I read, Sue Gray is very independent. She was not Bozo's first choice, for that reason, but Simon Case, his first choice, had to back out, as it turned out he was actually at one of these parties - red faces all round.

    One thing that has to be remembered is that all Gray can do is establish the facts. She's a Civil Servant: it is not her job to pass judgement on politicians. That is precisely why Bozo is talking up the significance of her report, since he will say, triumphantly, "Look, she hasn't told me I have to resign", when of course she cannot make any such recommendation. By the same token, she can't exonerate him either. But he is hoping to bamboozle people into treating it as a judgement when it will not be.

    The judgement will have to be made by the Tory party, when they see the facts she reports. I read that Bozo's people are now quite scared that the report may make Bozo look bad. She has even scrutinised the records from the security pass system, so she knows exactly who went in and out of No 10 during the period in question, and when. There are rumours that there was another lockdown-breaking party, this time in Bozo's private flat. If so, the security pass system may tell her who was there and for how long.

    I don't think he will get out of this one easily. To compound it, he has antagonised the new Red Wall MPs by trying to strong-arm them with threats, so badly that William Wragg has alleged blackmail and called in the police. I would not be surprised if Graham Brady's safe has 54 letters in it within a fortnight of Gray's report coming out.
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    We keep hearing how independent Sue Gray is but I'm not convinced, she's a deputy to Simon Case, the Head of the Home Civil Service and Principal Private Secretary to the Prime Minister.
    The level of pressure she will be under to downplay significance of rule breeches just enormous.
    Inconceivable anyone under such circumstances could remain impartial, this should have been an independent, and possibly, police inquiry.
    How do we take seriously a report from someone investigating their boss's boss?
    Gray is one of the top bods in the civil service and a key figure in the welfare of the PM the person at the centre of the investigation, it's just nonsense.

    This notion that the Prime Minister wanted Simon Case to conduct the inquiry just doesn't gel with me.
    If Case was in charge, he would be expected to know everything that's happened, thus anything left out of the report or not fully covered would never fly with Tory backbenchers or the public.
    If Gray's report is 'lacking', in any area, there exists a myriad of convenient excuses, pressure from above, lack of time, lack of scope, wasn't privy to everything etc.,
    Case would never get away with this, nor would the fact he is directly responsible to the PM go unnoticed by the press, Gray is at least a step removed.

    As for Red Wall MPs wanting to oust the PM, hardly surprisingly given how his unpopularity has made them now pretty much unelectable, no wonder Christian Wakeford defected to Labour,
    they also have a problem in that neither of two frontrunners for the top job appear to have the bottle to step up. The Chancellor Rishi Sunak, doesn't want to tarnish his image publicly by saying anything negative,
    and the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss, is far too wishy-washy to ever go toe-to-toe with Johnson.

    With the press dubbing William Wragg the "baby-faced assassin", I wouldn't be at all shocked if we see him throwing is hat in the ring if we get a leadership contest,
    unlikely he'll win but he's got name recognition in press over the whips blackmail allegations and clearly courting the spotlight.

    With polls putting Labour around between 4 & 15%, and averaging 12%, ahead of the Tories, I'll be astonished if we don't see Brady announcing a leadership contest once Gray's report does come out.
    Most of the Tories appear to have already made up their minds and just waiting for the opportune moment to pull the trigger.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

    Bertrand Russell
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    We keep hearing how independent Sue Gray is but I'm not convinced, she's a deputy to Simon Case, the Head of the Home Civil Service and Principal Private Secretary to the Prime Minister.
    The level of pressure she will be under to downplay significance of rule breeches just enormous.
    Inconceivable anyone under such circumstances could remain impartial, this should have been an independent, and possibly, police inquiry.
    How do we take seriously a report from someone investigating their boss's boss?
    Gray is one of the top bods in the civil service and a key figure in the welfare of the PM the person at the centre of the investigation, it's just nonsense.

    This notion that the Prime Minister wanted Simon Case to conduct the inquiry just doesn't gel with me.
    If Case was in charge, he would be expected to know everything that's happened, thus anything left out of the report or not fully covered would never fly with Tory backbenchers or the public.
    If Gray's report is 'lacking', in any area, there exists a myriad of convenient excuses, pressure from above, lack of time, lack of scope, wasn't privy to everything etc.,
    Case would never get away with this, nor would the fact he is directly responsible to the PM go unnoticed by the press, Gray is at least a step removed.

    As for Red Wall MPs wanting to oust the PM, hardly surprisingly given how his unpopularity has made them now pretty much unelectable, no wonder Christian Wakeford defected to Labour,
    they also have a problem in that neither of two frontrunners for the top job appear to have the bottle to step up. The Chancellor Rishi Sunak, doesn't want to tarnish his image publicly by saying anything negative,
    and the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss, is far too wishy-washy to ever go toe-to-toe with Johnson.

    With the press dubbing William Wragg the "baby-faced assassin", I wouldn't be at all shocked if we see him throwing is hat in the ring if we get a leadership contest,
    unlikely he'll win but he's got name recognition in press over the whips blackmail allegations and clearly courting the spotlight.

    With polls putting Labour around between 4 & 15%, and averaging 12%, ahead of the Tories, I'll be astonished if we don't see Brady announcing a leadership contest once Gray's report does come out.
    Most of the Tories appear to have already made up their minds and just waiting for the opportune moment to pull the trigger.
    You misunderstand how these contests for party leadership work. It's all part of the ritual that contenders have to seem loyal to the incumbent until the very last moment when a contest is announced, and then they "reluctantly" put themselves forward. No serious candidate ever goes "toe to toe" with the incumbent. So it's not a sign of weakness, nor of lack of appetite for the post. Tories are very tribal and loyalty is hugely prized. The people who have openly called for Bozo to resign are backbenchers with no leadership ambitions - or none at the moment.

    If and when a party vote of confidence in Bozo is lost, then you will see who announces their candidature, not before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    No serious candidate ever goes "toe to toe" with the incumbent. So it's not a sign of weakness, nor of lack of appetite for the post.
    But will they put up a stalking horse who cannot win but lets in another, as with the case of John Major?

    Tories are very tribal and loyalty is hugely prized. The people who have openly called for Bozo to resign are backbenchers with no leadership ambitions - or none at the moment.
    What tribes are out there this time?
    We've had the Wets and Dries before, the Brexiteers and Remainers, the Thatcherites and Neo Thatcherites, the Blues and Authentics, the Notting Hill Set, the Kensington Set.
    Like I said, they flourish when divided.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    No serious candidate ever goes "toe to toe" with the incumbent. So it's not a sign of weakness, nor of lack of appetite for the post.
    But will they put up a stalking horse who cannot win but lets in another, as with the case of John Major?

    Tories are very tribal and loyalty is hugely prized. The people who have openly called for Bozo to resign are backbenchers with no leadership ambitions - or none at the moment.
    What tribes are out there this time?
    We've had the Wets and Dries before, the Brexiteers and Remainers, the Thatcherites and Neo Thatcherites, the Blues and Authentics, the Notting Hill Set, the Kensington Set.
    Like I said, they flourish when divided.
    There may be a stalking horse, I don't know. But the main contenders will be careful not to express disloyalty until they know Bozo is out.

    Among the tribes are the new young intake Red Wallers (levellers up), the old Swivel-Eyed Tendency (Brexitty anti-mask/libertarians, dreaming of Singapore-on-Thames), and the backbench Sensibles (those that remain after Bozo's purge - Hunt probably their champion). There may be other groupings, but these are the ones I can identify. Bozo has now pulled off the feat of antagonising all three groups.
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  20. #19  
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    Report now out suggests a failure of leadership.
    Will he reach for the Tignanello wine bottle again?
    It's not plonk. Costs over £100 a bottle.
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    Is this the beginning of the end? Or the end of the beginning? (with apologies to Churchill)


    "No 10 denies Boris Johnson has lost control after raft of resignations"

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60261455
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  22. #21  
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    I like the way he argues resignations mean new appointments and ideas.
    Great if that also applied to the PM.

    PM sell by dates:
    Wilson. 2 separate disastrous terms which relied on a PM (Heath) more interested in sailing than politics.
    Thatcher didn't do too bad but eventually she made a mistake (the poll tax). She believed in her infallibility and lost control.
    Major should have been set aside, but he survived a no confidence vote. It led to Blair and war by the way he became Bush's poodle.

    1st prize goes to Robert Walpole - one term lasting 20 years.
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    Johnson latest: stand by for the biggest war in Europe since 1945.
    We can fight back with sanctions, but Russia still holds most of the cards.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60158694
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Johnson latest: stand by for the biggest war in Europe since 1945.
    Is this going to take attention away from Johnson's problems, until recently appearing to end in his ouster?
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    Before we were so rudely interrupted by Russia invading Ukraine, Boris was in some kind of trouble for having lockdown parties at No. 10 and Whitehall.

    He and his pals were apparently getting by having great fun until one or more people exposed the parties, creating quite a political storm now known as "Partygate."

    The long arm of the law has not gotten any shorter (1,2). The Metropolitan Police will issue 20 fines for those attending the parties, and more are expected (or at least hoped for by some).

    But it is not clear if Boris himself is going to skate on this issue. As one Tory MP noted. "I am afraid rule-breaking drinks parties have faded in their significance.” But is this someone who really can be trusted to do the right thing regarding world affairs? Major and frequent drinking parties does not inspire a great deal of confidence in a head of state.

    It seems as though, based on past posts, that the PM is rather fond of partying, and one can only wonder how much of that has gone on since the invasion in Ukraine pushed this story to the side. "War parties" are not unheard of. It is possible Boris and friends have been secretly and repeatedly toasting Putin for apparently saving his backside.

    Only time will tell if Boris has to take a hit for this. We will all be wondering about the politics involved, and what impact it will have on his position as PM, and if it impacts his party down the road. Certainly some of his adversaries will make a deal of it. One can only guess if they will result in a loss of public trust and support for Boris Johnson.



    "Has Putin saved Boris Johnson?"

    * https://www.politico.eu/article/has-...boris-johnson/


    "UK police to issue 20 fines over Downing Street lockdown parties "

    * https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/uk/uk...ntl/index.html
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  26. #25  
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    Bozo (I accept that now) - 1st PM in office to be prosecuted.
    With Sunak they're a bit like Laurel and Hardy. Another fine mess you've got me into Rishi.
    Chancellor Sunak - owner of a green card and wife avoids taxes.
    So how much will they end up paying? Could be as little as £30.

    You couldn't make it up.
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