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About LinkBacksThink the old thread went into the sand**.
Post here if the urge is strong...
** I mean the forum bug doesn't seem to want to allow us to continue posting in it
April 5th, 2019, 12:50 PM
Think the old thread went into the sand**.
Post here if the urge is strong...
** I mean the forum bug doesn't seem to want to allow us to continue posting in it
Last edited by geordief; April 5th, 2019 at 01:04 PM.
test
It was sabotaged by the Remoaners.
Great news. We're leaving on Friday!!!!
Which one, anyone's guess.
Yup. Sabotaged by the CBI, the TUC, the car industry, the Head of the Civil Service, the Governor of the Bank of England....and by Parliament itself, the democratic institution the Brexsh1tters were orginally so keen to see restored to full authority over UK affairs.Originally Posted by ox
All these organisations must be an unrepresentative, out-of-touch "elite" that is, for some undisclosed reason, intent on stopping the country "just LEAVING" tomorrow and picking up the pieces afterwards. I mean, what could be simpler than that? Stands to reason. Wosser problem? I 'ad that Mick Jagger in the back of the cab once, Lovely bloke.
New end Oct. 31. Maybe they'll never leave, since they can't agree on how.
End of October and we'll be back at square one again.
Then May will request a further extension, for a year this time.
This is the way she is treating the 17.4 million. The one thing that always talks is money and the super rich that run this country.
I'd grant Scotland their independence just to get rid of them. No need for a referendum this time. Then they can join the Eurozone.
We can also get rid of NI which also voted to remain by joining a united Ireland.
As England and Wales voted to leave then the process of leaving will be greatly simplified.
Just to feed ox's bile
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eur...over-day-looms
Not that I think we can disregard the result of the referendum but leave never meant no deal .
Correct, as is confirmed by this account of one disillusioned former Brexit campaigner: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8862931.html
As he points out, the Brexsh1ters have gradually moved to more and more extreme interpretations of Brexsh1t ever since the referendum. They have belatedly realised the snags with one option after another, but cannot bear to admit the whole idea was flawed in the first place. So now we end up with the tortuous absurdity of trying to blame the Queen, having first trashed the judges and then Parliament, the very institutions they were supposedly keen to re-empower!
The coup de grace was when Barnier and Juncker finally confirmed this week what a lot of us have been saying for ages, namely that if we leave with no deal, the first requirement from the EU for opening any sort of trade talks will be......to settle the bill, sort out citizens rights and agree to the Irish Backstop.
So a no deal exit - as now advocated by the Brexsh1tters - solves nothing, unless you are crazy enough to think it makes sense to trade indefinitely on bare-bones WTO terms, with the market of 500m on your doorstep that is responsible for half your exports and imports.
And now the MP's are off their Easter breaks.
No doubt many will be flying to exotic locations all over the world. You will find them on tropical beaches, at golf resorts, on luxury cruise liners.
No wonder these millionaire politicians are opposed to Brexit. They have too much to lose.
They won't want any more referendums. Big issues should not be left to the little people. Democracy is Darwinian. It favours the strong. The weak should play no part because they don't know what they're doing. Hooray for the leavers who are frustrated and declare they will never vote again.
Brexit was bankrolled by millionaires, millionaires made a fortune from the devaluation of the pound following the refendum result, Britain's richest man is a die hard Brexiteer, Brexit is supported by a majority of wealthy Tory voters. Brexit will involve stripping ordinary British citizens of the same rights & ability that millionaires have to travel & live in other countries, rights the EU deemed that all EU citizens should have. The only people to benefit from Brexit will be the wealthy, just exactly what do ordinary people get out of Brexit other than to give away more of their rights & freedoms, that are currently protected by the European Union, to hard right wingers who have openly talked about taking away our human rights, slashing environmental standards, removing employee rights & worker protections and scrapping the NHS in favour of private insurance schemes instead.
Brexit is truly about a battle between equality & personal freedoms pitted against the concentration of power for the privileged & wealthy. The EU is & has always been on the side of the individual, increasing our power, rights & freedoms whilst the Brexiteers just want more power for themselves to make us less equal, so they can discriminate, choose who is or isn't worthy and to take away our rights, freedoms & protections just like they have said they want to. What rights have the EU ever said they would take from us, what power do they have over us, only that which is to protect us from dangers, harmful products or chemicals, unfair treatment, exploitation, torture or discrimination, are our neighbours & the EU really the villains for protecting us or is it the Brexiteers trying to strip us of our protections!
Although a majority of the voters opted to leave, there is no consensus as to how. Don't blame May. The way Parliament is acting, no one can do anything. They have voted on at least a half dozen ways to leave, but can't get a majority for any.
But one should blame May. It is her who has failed miserably to take her MPs with her as the negotiations progressed. Any decent PM would have taken elaborate pains to explain the issues and cajole the MPs in the party into supporting the deal that was being crafted. The lack of consensus in parliament is a failure of leadership, by either of the main parties, at trying to forge one. Consensus does not just happen: everyone has different opinions. The discussion has to be led and a process that most can support used to narrow down options.
May's style is the opposite: secretive, evasive and devious. So it is hardly surprising that when she blindsides her own party with things she has decided alone, often without even consulting her own cabinet, they don't agree with her! It is also her fault that she ran a lousy election campaign and squandered her majority, leaving her a prisoner of the most unreasonable fringes of her party. Corbyn is also evasive and devious. He wants the UK to leave, so he can do all the socialist things the free-market orientated EU forbids, but he wants the Tories to do it,s he can blame the damage on them and justify revolutionary measures. Totally cynical.
Parliament in my view is doing a sterling job, with zero help from either party leader, at trying to save the situation from an absurd and damaging outcome. But none of the competent people, Yvette Cooper, Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve etc. is in a front bench position because the party leadership on both sides is so lousy.
There is a party on the right and a party on the left who keep each other in power by accusing the other of not being fit to govern.
The UK is a democracy with one person one vote. The rich have the same voting power as the poor, as do the young and old. From yesterday there is even a new party.
Some politicians have declared their dislike of referendums, but democracy is not just about party politics. It's all about the majority verdict.
That is why I want to know what happened to my vote.
As a Brexitshitter, I do want power returned to Westminster from Brussels. However, The Right Honourable Gentlemen are actually apposed to this. The sad fact is, a majority of Members of Parliament are remainers, they are doing everything they can to kick the ball into the long grass. Commons Speaker Bercow displays a massive bias against Brexit, we are up against it. However, our Nigel will save us with his shiny new Brexit Party.
Your pinup girl Gina Miller is not short of a bob or two.You obviously think that the European Union is some sort of utopia, have a listen to some of the people from the Southern European Countries.
No, politics is not all about the majority verdict. This is especially true when the verdict is pronounced before the relevant facts are apparent.
You might care to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority There are many reasons why so called "direct democracy" is not generally a good idea, as this article explains.
When as in the current case you have a very narrow majority for the course of action, there is a large minority whose views are thwarted. Prudent politics would avoid extreme solutions in such a case, for fear of antagonising half of society. But the Brexshitters have progressively demanded more and more extreme interpretations of Brexit as events have unfolded and their sunny predictions ("easiest trade deal in history"; "the EU will roll over at the last minute"; we hold all the cards"; "I'm pro cake and pro eating it") have been shown to be wrong. None of the extreme interpretations of Brexit now claimed to be the only "real" versions of it was seriously proposed at the time of the original vote. There is no popular mandate for them - and they are thought quite mad by everybody, from the CBI and TUC to the Civil Service and the bulk of sensible MPs.
That is what has happened to your vote: it has been hijacked by a bunch of unrealistic extremists to promote a course of action that nobody was even considering when you voted.
In the UK the result of an election is based on first past the post, confirmed again in 2011 by a democratic vote. Or had you forgotten?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vot e_referendum
"Politics" consists of a hell of a lot more than the result of a single vote, at one point in time.In the UK the result of an election is based on first past the post, confirmed again in 2011 by a democratic vote. Or had you forgotten?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vot e_referendum
Politics is a continual process of evaluating and compromising among competing ideas and interests. If it were all about a single vote, the winners in a general election would have a mandate to rule for a thousand year Reich. They don't, because both circumstances and the opinions and judgements of the electorate change, and because the results of one vote are judged by the effects they have.
In the present case, three years have passed since the referendum and it is obvious that we know a great deal more now about what options are available to us in the real world than we did at the time of the vote. The composition of the electorate too has changed: a lot of old Brexshitters have died and a lot of young remainers have reached voting age.
Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act we have the right to review our choice of government every five years. We have now had three years since the referendum and if we are to have another to confirm our choice, now that we know the facts, it would be almost four by the time it is organised.
So the notion that one single, very close, vote must decide this issue irrevocably, for all time, when so much has changed since, is just yet another Brexsh1tter simplistic misrepresentation.
Tell that to the electorate that their vote might not count.
What has Hitler got to do with this? Other than he also hated democracy.Politics is a continual process of evaluating and compromising among competing ideas and interests. If it were all about a single vote, the winners in a general election would have a mandate to rule for a thousand year Reich.
And a lot of old Remainers have died, and young Leavers have reached voting age.a lot of old Brexshitters have died and a lot of young remainers have reached voting age.
And if you still don't get your way you will want another referendum, and another until you do. Then you'll think referendums are great.Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act we have the right to review our choice of government every five years. We have now had three years since the referendum and if we are to have another to confirm our choice, now that we know the facts, it would be almost four by the time it is organised.
So the notion that one single, very close, vote must decide this issue irrevocably, for all time, when so much has changed since, is just yet another Brexsh1tter simplistic misrepresentation.
Duplicate deleted.
Last edited by exchemist; April 17th, 2019 at 04:17 AM.
You have chosen to miss the points I am making, though whether this is done as a debating tactic or out of sheer stupidity, I have no way of knowing. Either way, I can't be bothered to keep repeating myself, as it is clear it suits you to affect not to understand.Tell that to the electorate that their vote might not count.
What has Hitler got to do with this? Other than he also hated democracy.Politics is a continual process of evaluating and compromising among competing ideas and interests. If it were all about a single vote, the winners in a general election would have a mandate to rule for a thousand year Reich.
And a lot of old Remainers have died, and young Leavers have reached voting age.a lot of old Brexshitters have died and a lot of young remainers have reached voting age.
And if you still don't get your way you will want another referendum, and another until you do. Then you'll think referendums are great.Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act we have the right to review our choice of government every five years. We have now had three years since the referendum and if we are to have another to confirm our choice, now that we know the facts, it would be almost four by the time it is organised.
So the notion that one single, very close, vote must decide this issue irrevocably, for all time, when so much has changed since, is just yet another Brexsh1tter simplistic misrepresentation.
By the way, almost three quarters of voters in the age group 18-24 voted Remain, whereas 3 in 5 voters over 65 voted Leave: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36619342 There is no evidence that young people have become more pro-Leave since 2016. So the longer we wait the more the population becomes in favour of Remain.
You did repeat yourself. Posts #20 and #21 are the same.
It is also clear that you do not understand a democratic decision is there to keep the peace and prevent the rise of the far right and far left.
So what happens if us Brexitshitters win a second referendum ? Will you stand down ? Will you accept democracy ? What will you do ?"Politics" consists of a hell of a lot more than the result of a single vote, at one point in time.In the UK the result of an election is based on first past the post, confirmed again in 2011 by a democratic vote. Or had you forgotten?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vot e_referendum
Politics is a continual process of evaluating and compromising among competing ideas and interests. If it were all about a single vote, the winners in a general election would have a mandate to rule for a thousand year Reich. They don't, because both circumstances and the opinions and judgements of the electorate change, and because the results of one vote are judged by the effects they have.
In the present case, three years have passed since the referendum and it is obvious that we know a great deal more now about what options are available to us in the real world than we did at the time of the vote. The composition of the electorate too has changed: a lot of old Brexshitters have died and a lot of young remainers have reached voting age.
Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act we have the right to review our choice of government every five years. We have now had three years since the referendum and if we are to have another to confirm our choice, now that we know the facts, it would be almost four by the time it is organised.
So the notion that one single, very close, vote must decide this issue irrevocably, for all time, when so much has changed since, is just yet another Brexsh1tter simplistic misrepresentation.
Me? I'm not in government. "Stand down" has no meaning that I can discern. I am not standing for elected office.So what happens if us Brexitshitters win a second referendum ? Will you stand down ? Will you accept democracy ? What will you do ?"Politics" consists of a hell of a lot more than the result of a single vote, at one point in time.In the UK the result of an election is based on first past the post, confirmed again in 2011 by a democratic vote. Or had you forgotten?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vot e_referendum
Politics is a continual process of evaluating and compromising among competing ideas and interests. If it were all about a single vote, the winners in a general election would have a mandate to rule for a thousand year Reich. They don't, because both circumstances and the opinions and judgements of the electorate change, and because the results of one vote are judged by the effects they have.
In the present case, three years have passed since the referendum and it is obvious that we know a great deal more now about what options are available to us in the real world than we did at the time of the vote. The composition of the electorate too has changed: a lot of old Brexshitters have died and a lot of young remainers have reached voting age.
Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act we have the right to review our choice of government every five years. We have now had three years since the referendum and if we are to have another to confirm our choice, now that we know the facts, it would be almost four by the time it is organised.
So the notion that one single, very close, vote must decide this issue irrevocably, for all time, when so much has changed since, is just yet another Brexsh1tter simplistic misrepresentation.
Look, from what I have recently read the most likely way a 2nd referendum would come about is Labour's idea, viz. that any final Brexit plan agreed with the EU and ratified by Parliament should go to the people for sign off, with the alternative being Remain. I think the outcome of that would be fairly clear and hard to argue with: we either leave under the terms of that deal, in full knowledge, this time, of what we would be getting, or we stay in the EU.
That's the thing about this, you see. People like me were in a position in 2016 to realise what the consequences would be, but that's because of my background in industry, my education and my experience of living overseas. This is not something that everyone shares, obviously. If I'd been, say, a retired bloke in Stratford-on-Avon, or someone on benefits in a tower block in Gateshead, I might not have had much idea. But now the original myths about about it being easy, having cake and eating it, saving 350m/week for the NHS etc., have been exposed. It will be painful, expensive, damaging to industry and will create a nasty problem at the Irish border if we do not give N Ireland some sort of special status to deal with it. Furthermore our "freedom" to do our own trade deals will give worse results than sticking with the pan-EU negotiations that we do today. All these issues have now been fairly well ventilated. So now we can have a referendum that could actually instruct the government what to do, in full knowledge of the facts.
As for me personally, since you seem interested in that, I could not argue that such a referendum would be unfair. It would address my points that people were not informed in 2016 about what the exit deal would be like and that opinions could well have changed as they have learnt more. But we if were to choose to leave, I might apply for a Scottish passport, once Scotland secedes from the union, which it would in time.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-47936624
This is very strong stuff. Does she hold all the cards (in the US)?
Britain would be exceptionally foolhardy to plow on regardless if she can back up her words with action.
A trade deal with the US contingent on the Good Friday Agreement being honoured in full (ie no border) ? "Don't even think about it"?
The Unionists may have a new bete noire** if she has free rein.
**who was the last one Ted Kennedy,was it?
Duplicate deleted, again. Sodding software bug.
You may recall Bill Clinton was quite heavily involved in the peace process in N Ireland. Pelosi was around at that time. I imagine she and the Democrats generally feel they have quite a lot invested in the Good Friday Agreement and are not willing to see it swept aside in pursuit of a fool's hard Brexit. And yes, Congress has to approve trade deals, so she can certainly put a lot of pressure on the UK to honour the agreement if a trade deal with the US is being sought. Yet another nail i the coffin of this mad idea of crashing out with no deal.
Mind you, I don't see any prospect of Fox being able to do a trade deal with the US in the near future. The obstacles are enormous and the price the US will exact will be unacceptably high. It would mean the destruction of the British countryside and I don't think that even a free-market transatlantic enthusiast like Fox is going to be able to get that through.
Duplicate post deleted.You did repeat yourself. Posts #20 and #21 are the same.
It is also clear that you do not understand a democratic decision is there to keep the peace and prevent the rise of the far right and far left.
The Brexit folks will celebrate. The money behind Brexit will break out the champagne. The adults in the room will try once again to figure out how to actually do it. Brexit will again be postponed indefinitely until they can figure out how to do it with a minimum of pain.
Then in 2031 after the 14th postponement, the New Greater English Nation will finally leave the EU, with heavy tariffs on anyone in-country who trades with Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales. And the Brexiteers will wave their canes in celebration.
Couldn't have said it better myself dude.The Brexit folks will celebrate. The money behind Brexit will break out the champagne. The adults in the room will try once again to figure out how to actually do it. Brexit will again be postponed indefinitely until they can figure out how to do it with a minimum of pain.
Then in 2031 after the 14th postponement, the New Greater English Nation will finally leave the EU, with heavy tariffs on anyone in-country who trades with Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales. And the Brexiteers will wave their canes in celebration.
Have you been looking into a crystal ball? Unlike your America First country there will be no England First.
Plenty of English are happy to let Scotland be independent.Have you been looking into a crystal ball? Unlike your America First country there will be no England First.
And the behaviour of some of the Brexiteers (our way or the Highway) reinforces this.
What is left of the union if Scotland is given the cold shoulder?
England is not giving Scotland the cold shoulder, it is the other way around in my opinion. The SNP ( Scottish National Party ) gave the Scottish people a referendum in 2014 on leaving the UK ( United Kingdom ). The outcome was in favour of the Scottish people to stay in the UK. The SNP is still pushing for another referendum on leaving the UK, they will keep going until they get the right result. What I find strange is that had the SNP gained independance from the UK, they wanted to throw that independence away into the lap of the EU ( European Union ). However the EU told the SNP that if they did win independence from the UK they would no longer be a part of the EU, and they would have to apply for membership as an independent nation.Plenty of English are happy to let Scotland be independent.Have you been looking into a crystal ball? Unlike your America First country there will be no England First.
And the behaviour of some of the Brexiteers (our way or the Highway) reinforces this.
What is left of the union if Scotland is given the cold shoulder?
That will not be through lack of desire. It's only a matter of time before the description of "them" moves from Muslims to Europeans to "everyone other than the True English."
This dude really does have a crystal ball.That will not be through lack of desire. It's only a matter of time before the description of "them" moves from Muslims to Europeans to "everyone other than the True English."
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