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Thread: Brexit Progress Update #2

  1. #201  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
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    I am not sure if this qualifies as Brexit discussion but has the US China trade war effected Brexit or the UK negatively?
    Not so much direct effects,I think but perhaps it informs peoples views on globalization.
    What is the opinion on globalization in the UK under Brexit?
    I can't really say but the UK should ,in part have a special take on it in one aspect; like the US( actually much more so) it effectively was (in very large part) the globalization agent in its history.

    Where other regions might see globalization as an opportunity it may be that historically dominant economic/military/political powers have to adapt to a certain amount of downsides (certainly in their self image)

    Of course there is no real choice in the matter but politicians can get elected pretending ,or even convincing themselves otherwise.
    The US and the UK have done business internationally for a long time. They have also fought in many foreign wars, some together, and expanded their influence internationally.
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  2. #202  
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    well since us and uk are already over lets just say the world is finally on the way towards becoming a better place and that is the truth ..
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    why did cameron agree to the referendum ? Out of touch, out of mind.. bat-crazy thatcher, non-achieving blair, lol-worthy brown, out-of-touch cameron .. may the scape-goat
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  4. #204  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninuno888 View Post
    why did cameron agree to the referendum ?
    Pressure from his back benchers in the House of Commons.

    non-achieving blair
    Man was a liar, hence Tony Bliar

    may the scape-goat
    Another liar. She never wanted Brexit to happen.

    bat-crazy thatcher
    She had been abducted by aliens in her home town of Grantham in the 1960's.
    That's why she said you can't tell the people.
    The nightmare continues. https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird...ord-university
    Last edited by ox; July 2nd, 2019 at 06:25 AM.
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  5. #205  
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    Tragic nation. Ludicrous people. Risible matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninuno888 View Post
    well since us and uk are already over lets just say the world is finally on the way towards becoming a better place and that is the truth ..

    Whose fault ? Their attempt to build a global thing whatever it sounds like to them out of satires and parodies !
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    U.S. situation not quite as bad as U.K. Hopefully 2020 election will get rid of Trump and get the U.S. back to being leader of the free world. If Brexit finally goes through, it will be much harder to reverse.
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    Parliament just voted against no deal Brexit. My guess it will be delayed again after Oct.
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  9. #209  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Parliament just voted against no deal Brexit. My guess it will be delayed again after Oct.
    This is incorrect. Parliament has voted for a measure that makes it impossible for Parliament to be suspended ("prorogued"), in the run-up to the next critical date (Hallowe'en).

    What that does is make it impossible for Bozo to prevent a vote of no confidence in his government from taking place, which would kick him out and force a general election.

    So all this has done is enable Parliament to maintain the threat that if he tries to crash the UK out of the EU, he may be out of office and into en election he is likely to lose.

    A lot more work needs to be done to ensure no-deal exit is prevented. This is just the start.
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  10. #210  
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    So it's the fat controller as new PM.
    Look out. He'll reach for a scatter gun.
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    Parliament rules according to the Supreme Court.(unanimous decision)


    I am chuffed ,even if it seems sad that the separation of powers is less clear to me now.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49810261
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  12. #212  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Parliament rules according to the Supreme Court.(unanimous decision)


    I am chuffed ,even if it seems sad that the separation of powers is less clear to me now.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49810261
    Yes, a real landmark ruling and important that populists cannot sideline Parliament in future.

    The irony is that the threat to the sovereignty of Parliament comes, not from the EU at all, but from the current UK government! This is the twisted state our Brexshitters have got themselves into.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Parliament rules according to the Supreme Court.(unanimous decision)


    I am chuffed ,even if it seems sad that the separation of powers is less clear to me now.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49810261
    Yes, a real landmark ruling and important that populists cannot sideline Parliament in future.

    The irony is that the threat to the sovereignty of Parliament comes, not from the EU at all, but from the current UK government! This is the twisted state our Brexshitters have got themselves into.
    No, the irony is, that a majority of The Right Honourable Gentlemen in Westminster will do anything to stop Brexit. They wish to lose our sovereignty to the European Union while pretending that they make our laws.
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  14. #214  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    No, the irony is, that a majority of The Right Honourable Gentlemen in Westminster will do anything to stop Brexit. They wish to lose our sovereignty to the European Union while pretending that they make our laws.
    If the majority wanted to stop Brexit, then they would have done that by now.

    Most of them seem willing to allow Brexit to happen. But, as there job is to do the best for the country, they do not want to let a disastrous no-deal Brexit happen.

    One of the main reasons that Brexit hasn't happened is because, for the most extreme Brexiters, no form of Brexit is good enough so they have consistently voted against leaving with an agreement.

    And, while it can be argued that having a trade relationship with the EU means some loss of sovereignty, the same is true for any trade deal. And, in fact, for a large amount of trade even without any sort of agreement.

    For example, UK manufacturers of electronic or electric equipment have to comply with regulations laid down by the FCC in the USA. That is effectively, a loss of sovereignty (having to comply with the laws and regulations of a foreign power). There are similar examples in almost every area of business.

    The majority of UK laws are purely UK made (including most of those that Johnson and other lying Brexiters blame on the EU). Theist majority of regulations that come from the EU are things like communication standards, food safety, animal welfare, certifying medicines, and so on.

    Perhaps you could say which specific "EU laws" you have a problem with?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post

    The majority of UK laws are purely UK made (including most of those that Johnson and other lying Brexiters blame on the EU). Theist majority of regulations that come from the EU are things like communication standards, food safety, animal welfare, certifying medicines, and so on.

    Perhaps you could say which specific "EU laws" you have a problem with?
    Off the top of my head fire extinguishers comes to mind, we had a system where the contents of a fire extinguisher was denoted by a specific colour. This came under BS 5423, water extinguishers were red coloured, foam extinguishers were cream coloured, Co2 extinguishers were black coloured, powder extinguishers were blue coloured. Then in January 1997 a directive came from the EU telling us ,and the rest of the EU, that we had to adopt a harmonised EU standard on fire extinguishers, which I think was based on the German model. Madness then ensued as we found out that 90% of the body of fire extinguishers was now to be coloured red, with a small coloured strip at the top of the fire extinguisher denoting the contents, this of course made no difference to water extinguishers, but a big difference to foam, Co2, and powder extinguishers. This madness came under BS EN3 ( EN = European Norm ) We adopted a system that was inferior to the one that we had, all in the interests of EU harmonisation. Could you imagine going into a safety meeting before this directive was issued and telling everyone that you had come up with a new safety plan. The new plan was to make all fire extinguishers red coloured apart from a small strip at the top of the extinguisher. The men in white coats would have been called for.
    Last edited by Dave Wilson; September 29th, 2019 at 07:40 AM. Reason: spelling
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  16. #216  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Off the top of my head fire extinguishers comes to mind, we had a system where the contents of a fire extinguisher was denoted by a specific colour. This came under BS 5423, water extinguishers were red coloured, foam extinguishers were cream coloured, Co2 extinguishers were black coloured, powder extinguishers were blue coloured. Then in January 1997 a directive came from the EU telling us ,and the rest of the EU, that we had to adopt a harmonised EU standard on fire extinguishers, which I think was based on the German model. Madness then ensued as we found out that 90% of the body of fire extinguishers was now to be coloured red, with a small coloured strip at the top of the fire extinguisher denoting the contents, this of course made no difference to water extinguishers, but a big difference to foam, Co2, and powder extinguishers. This madness came under BS EN3 ( EN = European Norm ) We adopted a system that was inferior to the one that we had, all in the interests of EU harmonisation. Could you imagine going into a safety meeting before this directive was issued and telling everyone that you had come up with a new safety plan. The new plan was to make all fire extinguishers red coloured apart from a small strip at the top of the extinguisher. The men in white coats would have been called for.
    Well, that's pretty specialised. I can't really comment. Do you know how the UK voted on this? The probability is they voted for it.

    From the point of view of other EU states where all extinguishers were red and highly visible, the idea of changing them to be a range of different colours probably sounds equally mad.

    But if this really is a problem, what is the more rational response? Campaign to change it or throw away 50+ trade deals and other advantages of membership?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Talk about clutching at straws... Using the colour of fire extinguishers to justify your politics 1It will the ban on straight bananas next! (I know this is a "euromyth" but I wouldn't put any nonsense past Dave...)

    1 as someone who is trained to fight lab fires and has had to use fire extinguishers more often than I would like I can confirm the change Dave is talking about has had no impact on lab safety. We don't let people who are too stupid to identify a coloured strip on an extinguisher anywhere near them...
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  18. #218  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    (I know this is a "euromyth" but I wouldn't put any nonsense past Dave...)
    The EU has a page one their website which is a database of such myths published by the UK press (many invented by the Dear Leader). I assume the UK is the only country they need to do this for.
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  19. #219  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The probability is they voted for it.
    A bit more on this:

    "UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%."
    https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/

    But it is more complicated than that because much of the decision making is based on long negotiations before it gets to a vote. The UK may or may not have opposed red fire extinguishers from the start, they may have had their minds changed in the meantime, or it could be one of the 72 instances they voted against a law and lost. Or, maybe the UK was one of the prime movers behind red fire extinguishers. Who knows. (And, to some extent, who cares.) It would take for more research than I am prepared to do. Maybe Dave Wilson can enlighten us.
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  20. #220  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Parliament rules according to the Supreme Court.(unanimous decision)


    I am chuffed ,even if it seems sad that the separation of powers is less clear to me now.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49810261
    Yes, a real landmark ruling and important that populists cannot sideline Parliament in future.

    The irony is that the threat to the sovereignty of Parliament comes, not from the EU at all, but from the current UK government! This is the twisted state our Brexshitters have got themselves into.
    No, the irony is, that a majority of The Right Honourable Gentlemen in Westminster will do anything to stop Brexit. They wish to lose our sovereignty to the European Union while pretending that they make our laws.
    Ballocks. The only reason we have not left by now is because the Hard Brexshitters in the ERG and DUP voted down May's withdrawal deal. The government had a majority of 12 and could not get it through because of rebellion in its its own ranks.

    It is their fault we are in this mess and now they are trying to force an idiotic no-deal exit on the country, something that is guaranteed to ensure we waste the next five years mucking about with trying to negotiate with the EU, from a position of weakness, when we already had a package on offer to allow us to get on to the next stage. The idea that a no deal exit will be a "clean break" is mad. None of the problems addressed by the withdrawal agreement will have been dealt with. They will all still be there and the government will not be able to just ignore them.

    No deal will be a Groundhog Day Brexit, that prevents the country moving on at all.
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    I suspect the majority who voted for Brexit had no idea of what would happen if there was no deal. A new vote with a clear description of Brexit would lead to without a deal seems to be necessary.
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  22. #222  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Talk about clutching at straws... Using the colour of fire extinguishers to justify your politics 1It will the ban on straight bananas next! (I know this is a "euromyth" but I wouldn't put any nonsense past Dave...)

    1 as someone who is trained to fight lab fires and has had to use fire extinguishers more often than I would like I can confirm the change Dave is talking about has had no impact on lab safety. We don't let people who are too stupid to identify a coloured strip on an extinguisher anywhere near them...
    The attack dog has been unleashed most probably foaming from the mouth . I was asked to give an EU law that I did not agree with. I gave a perfectly reasonable reply in the form of fire extinguishers, we accepted degrading standards which is not a wise move. That aside, you tell us that you are a highly qualified laboratory fireman. There is probably an opening for you in Trumpton Fire Brigade. I can just imagine the roll call, Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Demon, Grubb.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6YE4PCRNwc
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  23. #223  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    I was asked to give an EU law that I did not agree with. I gave a perfectly reasonable reply in the form of fire extinguishers, we accepted degrading standards which is not a wise move.
    Do you have any evidence that the UK voted against this? Or argued against it? Or thought it was a good idea? Or put forward the proposal in the first place? Or ...

    Do you have any objective evidence that this is a bad law, or a bad idea? Otherwise raising this is about as useful about wishing for a blue passport (which you could campaign for within the EU).

    I can imagine how it might have gone in the initial negotiations:

    UK: "We colour code our extinguishers. For example, foam ones are cream."

    Germany: "We have done some research on this matter and found that the difficulty of spotting, say, cream fire extinguishers against a cream wall has caused some problems. In some cases, users were not confident they were actually extinguishers. We recommend they are all mainly red, with a colour coded stripe."

    UK: [Shuffles papers] "Yes, apparently our fire brigades are happy with that."

    Chairman: "OK. Moving on. Next is the UK proposal for straight bananas ..."

    But feel free to provide the evidence to show me wrong.


    To argue that this is important enough to throw away a large number of free trade agreements (which will take decades to replace) and risk massive damage to the UK economy seems ... a little foolish, shall we say.
    Last edited by Strange; September 30th, 2019 at 11:32 AM.
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  24. #224  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Talk about clutching at straws... Using the colour of fire extinguishers to justify your politics 1It will the ban on straight bananas next! (I know this is a "euromyth" but I wouldn't put any nonsense past Dave...)

    1 as someone who is trained to fight lab fires and has had to use fire extinguishers more often than I would like I can confirm the change Dave is talking about has had no impact on lab safety. We don't let people who are too stupid to identify a coloured strip on an extinguisher anywhere near them...
    The attack dog has been unleashed most probably foaming from the mouth . I was asked to give an EU law that I did not agree with. I gave a perfectly reasonable reply in the form of fire extinguishers, we accepted degrading standards which is not a wise move. That aside, you tell us that you are a highly qualified laboratory fireman. There is probably an opening for you in Trumpton Fire Brigade. I can just imagine the roll call, Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Demon, Grubb.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6YE4PCRNwc
    Obvious flame bait. I'm not biting, why not leave discussion to grown ups?
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  25. #225  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    The attack dog has been unleashed most probably foaming from the mouth
    It is so easy to play the "I'm being attacked therefore I must be right" card. Even when you are wrong.

    Much easier than supporting your argument with facts.

    I notice that you didn't pick on an earlier, and far more strongly-worded, response. Presumably because that had caught you in an obvious lie.
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  26. #226  
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    Also, Dave's description of me "foaming at the mouth" coudn't be more wrong... I've often been criticised by friends, family members and ex-partners as being too cold and analytical.
    I can't remember the last time I fully lost my temper, although I will admit to being exasperated and confused by willful ignorance... Calling someone out as an idiot is not an emotional experience for me but a statement of fact...
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  27. #227  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Also, Dave's description of me "foaming at the mouth" coudn't be more wrong...
    Yep. If he thinks "clutching at straws" is foaming at the mouth, he must be a very delicate little snowflake. Bless.

    Maybe he is worried that red fire extinguishers are all communists.
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  28. #228  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Talk about clutching at straws... Using the colour of fire extinguishers to justify your politics 1It will the ban on straight bananas next! (I know this is a "euromyth" but I wouldn't put any nonsense past Dave...)

    1 as someone who is trained to fight lab fires and has had to use fire extinguishers more often than I would like I can confirm the change Dave is talking about has had no impact on lab safety. We don't let people who are too stupid to identify a coloured strip on an extinguisher anywhere near them...
    The attack dog has been unleashed most probably foaming from the mouth . I was asked to give an EU law that I did not agree with. I gave a perfectly reasonable reply in the form of fire extinguishers, we accepted degrading standards which is not a wise move. That aside, you tell us that you are a highly qualified laboratory fireman. There is probably an opening for you in Trumpton Fire Brigade. I can just imagine the roll call, Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Demon, Grubb.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6YE4PCRNwc
    Obvious flame bait. I'm not biting, why not leave discussion to grown ups?
    PhDemon, over the years you have thrown a lot of crap at people, but I do admit that you have toned things down a tad. However, when any crap comes back at you, you start shouting flame bait or troll. Here is a good rule of thumb for you, if you can't take it back don't dish it out. Good day to you dude.
    Last edited by Dave Wilson; October 1st, 2019 at 07:22 AM. Reason: spelling
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  29. #229  
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  30. #230  
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    The moronic lies about “ever closer union” and “centralised power” are nicely demolished here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...774174720.html
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  31. #231  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The moronic lies about “ever closer union” and “centralised power” are nicely demolished here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...774174720.html
    Hmm. Actually I think this link is a little disingenuous. The Euro logically requires closer union of political power as well as peoples.

    Ultimately you need fiscal union, i.e. tax and spending decisions would be made at EU level. This would mean a big shift in real power from national to EU level, though no doubt national governments would have a large degree of autonomy in how to spend their share of the budget.

    This is the reason why John Major kept the UK out of the Euro at Maastricht.
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  32. #232  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Hmm. Actually I think this link is a little disingenuous. The Euro logically requires closer union of political power as well as peoples.
    But I think that is consistent with the principle of subsidiarity. Having a common currency requires common fiscal policy (and everyone who joined the Euro, or didn't, knows this). So that must, at some point, become an EU competency. But that doesn't mean that there will necessarily be a political land-grab in other areas.
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    Can we get back to the subject. Johnson seems to have a proposal which could pass parliament, but not in Brussels. Now what?
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  34. #234  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Can we get back to the subject. Johnson seems to have a proposal which could pass parliament, but not in Brussels. Now what?
    Now it goes nowhere, while Bozolini and Baldrick manoeuvre to make it seem to be the fault of the EU and Ireland.

    An extension (possibly enforced by court action) and an election and/or a referendum to follow, in which Bozolini will set himself up as the voice of Das Volk, in opposition to the institutions of democratic government that Brexit was supposed to restore to autonomy.
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  35. #235  
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    To the long line of people who have buggered up Britain, let's now include Cameron and Johnson.

    Amazing after well over 3 years nothing is resolved and now only 22 days to go.
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  36. #236  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    To the long line of people who have buggered up Britain, let's now include Cameron and Johnson.

    Amazing after well over 3 years nothing is resolved and now only 22 days to go.
    ......with a cameo role from Jacob Rees-Mogg. I agree entirely.

    If I were the Provost of Eton (it's William Waldegrave, apparently) I'd be thinking hard about what it is about the place in the last few decades that has led to these baleful effects (though Rory Stewart shows they are not all like these three). There seems to be a common strand of clever, but lazy, entitlement about these OEs.

    The basic problem is the lazy way the original referendum was formulated by Cameron. "Leave", without defining what leave meant and with what results, was a crazily open-ended and vacuous proposition, promptly filled with lies by twisters like Bozo and idiots like Iain Dumcnut-Sh1t. It seems nobody in the Leave camp even thought about Ireland, focused as they were on an English Nationalist vision of the future. Since then, all practical problems have been brushed aside as "Project Fear". But now, quite predictably, these practical problems are biting them in the arse - and they have no answer to them, just more grandstanding.

    May and Olly Robbins, to their credit, did actually get the basis of a good withdrawal deal, but it was refused by the Leave extremists, whom May was afraid to confront head-on about it. So here we are.

    And now Bozo - who has no clue about Europe or Ireland and no principles whatever - resorts to blaming the very institutions Brexit was supposed to restore to autonomy. But it is not their fault. It is the fault of a badly thought out referendum and of the Leave extremists that Bozo has decided to encourage for personal gain.
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    Will Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland still remain a part of the UK as Brexit proceeds?
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  38. #238  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Will Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland still remain a part of the UK as Brexit proceeds?
    Nobody knows. If there is a hard Brexit, in which we leave the customs union and single market, then I think it is quite likely that both Northern Ireland and Scotland will have left the Union within a decade. If we leave with a soft Brexit, to a status like that of Norway, then the pressure for them to leave will not be nearly as great.

    The current negotiations are NOT concerned with whether Brexit will be hard or soft. All that is under discussion at present is the terms of initial withdrawal, to allow the UK to enter a 2year transition period, during which the final relationship would be thrashed out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Will Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland still remain a part of the UK as Brexit proceeds?
    Nobody knows. If there is a hard Brexit, in which we leave the customs union and single market, then I think it is quite likely that both Northern Ireland and Scotland will have left the Union within a decade. If we leave with a soft Brexit, to a status like that of Norway, then the pressure for them to leave will not be nearly as great.

    The current negotiations are NOT concerned with whether Brexit will be hard or soft. All that is under discussion at present is the terms of initial withdrawal, to allow the UK to enter a 2year transition period, during which the final relationship would be thrashed out.
    I would like to know how / why you think that NI would leave the UK within a decade if there is a hard Brexit?
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  40. #240  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Will Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland still remain a part of the UK as Brexit proceeds?
    Nobody knows. If there is a hard Brexit, in which we leave the customs union and single market, then I think it is quite likely that both Northern Ireland and Scotland will have left the Union within a decade. If we leave with a soft Brexit, to a status like that of Norway, then the pressure for them to leave will not be nearly as great.

    The current negotiations are NOT concerned with whether Brexit will be hard or soft. All that is under discussion at present is the terms of initial withdrawal, to allow the UK to enter a 2year transition period, during which the final relationship would be thrashed out.
    I would like to know how / why you think that NI would leave the UK within a decade if there is a hard Brexit?
    The majority in NI voted Remain in the referendum. If there is a hard Brexit there will be a hard border, which will seriously damage livelihoods and separate communities. Business in NI is appalled by the prospect. There is provision in the Good Friday Agreement for a Border Poll: https://constitution-unit.com/2019/0...o-be-answered/

    It seems likely that the conditions to hold such a poll could be met and that if held it would lead to a vote to join the rest of Ireland, and thereby rejoin the EU.
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  41. #241  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Will Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland still remain a part of the UK as Brexit proceeds?
    Nobody knows. If there is a hard Brexit, in which we leave the customs union and single market, then I think it is quite likely that both Northern Ireland and Scotland will have left the Union within a decade. If we leave with a soft Brexit, to a status like that of Norway, then the pressure for them to leave will not be nearly as great.

    The current negotiations are NOT concerned with whether Brexit will be hard or soft. All that is under discussion at present is the terms of initial withdrawal, to allow the UK to enter a 2year transition period, during which the final relationship would be thrashed out.
    I would like to know how / why you think that NI would leave the UK within a decade if there is a hard Brexit?
    The majority in NI voted Remain in the referendum. If there is a hard Brexit there will be a hard border, which will seriously damage livelihoods and separate communities. Business in NI is appalled by the prospect. There is provision in the Good Friday Agreement for a Border Poll: https://constitution-unit.com/2019/0...o-be-answered/

    It seems likely that the conditions to hold such a poll could be met and that if held it would lead to a vote to join the rest of Ireland, and thereby rejoin the EU.
    Just had a quick look at your link, there is quite a bit of stuff in there, that I just did not know. Very busy at work at the moment, I will study your link when I have more time.
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  42. #242  
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    The saga continues, we have had super Saturday, we are now into sombre Sunday. Is it possible that the greased piglet BJ will not get his Bday ?
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  43. #243  
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    I get the impression that Bojo is actually enjoying every minute of this saga.
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    You may be correct in your assessment of Bojo. In my humble opinion he is a showman and the show must go on. Let us hope that, Allhallowtide does not turn into, The Triduum of Death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Will Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland still remain a part of the UK as Brexit proceeds?
    Nobody knows. If there is a hard Brexit, in which we leave the customs union and single market, then I think it is quite likely that both Northern Ireland and Scotland will have left the Union within a decade. If we leave with a soft Brexit, to a status like that of Norway, then the pressure for them to leave will not be nearly as great.

    The current negotiations are NOT concerned with whether Brexit will be hard or soft. All that is under discussion at present is the terms of initial withdrawal, to allow the UK to enter a 2year transition period, during which the final relationship would be thrashed out.
    By a soft Brexit do you mean a Brexit where the UK leaves the European Union but remains in the Single Market? If so it sounds like the main reason for Scotland or Northern Ireland to leave the UK is economic and has to do with the UK leaving the Single Market.
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  46. #246  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post

    By a soft Brexit do you mean a Brexit where the UK leaves the European Union but remains in the Single Market? If so it sounds like the main reason for Scotland or Northern Ireland to leave the UK is economic and has to do with the UK leaving the Single Market.
    Scotland has at present a large proportion of the electorate who would like to leave the UK.

    It also voted by quite a margin to remain in the EU.

    When the UK leaves the EU it is quite likely that there will be an increase in the number of Scots voters who will ,if the vote is allowed choose to leave the UK.. (seeing that their wish to remain in the EU has been disregarded)

    Northern Ireland is perhaps more attached to the UK but again there could be an increase in "leave UK " sentiment ,especially as the likely debate around Scottish independence will probably be contagious.

    Not really an economic reason -in the same way that those in England who wanted to leave the EU seem happy to disregard purely economic arguments.
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  47. #247  
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    Just as I predicted. We ain't Brexiting.
    'One thing is certain. We won't be leaving at the end of October.' (post #187)

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-words-cartoon

    It's Brexit that's now dead in a ditch.

    But not this thread having nearly 50,000 views if you include the old one.
    Last edited by ox; October 25th, 2019 at 10:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post

    By a soft Brexit do you mean a Brexit where the UK leaves the European Union but remains in the Single Market? If so it sounds like the main reason for Scotland or Northern Ireland to leave the UK is economic and has to do with the UK leaving the Single Market.
    Scotland has at present a large proportion of the electorate who would like to leave the UK.

    It also voted by quite a margin to remain in the EU.

    When the UK leaves the EU it is quite likely that there will be an increase in the number of Scots voters who will ,if the vote is allowed choose to leave the UK.. (seeing that their wish to remain in the EU has been disregarded)

    Northern Ireland is perhaps more attached to the UK but again there could be an increase in "leave UK " sentiment ,especially as the likely debate around Scottish independence will probably be contagious.

    Not really an economic reason -in the same way that those in England who wanted to leave the EU seem happy to disregard purely economic arguments.
    It sounds like that if the UK chooses to leave the EU then Scotland and North Ireland will leave the UK to remain in the EU.
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    Scotland (I mean a large minority and a potential majority of it at present) would like that outcome but it would probably have to reapply for membership and this would run the risk of a veto from countries like Spain with their own recalcitrant regions.

    As for NI ,the same might apply but they might have a fast track on account of the Good Friday Agreement where there exists special agreements on the island of Ireland.

    There would be very little straightforward in organising these unnecessary and unfortunate separations.

    It would have been far better for the Brexit referendum to have taken into account the separate members of the Union rather than just adding up all the votes for the Union as a whole. Also 50% was a ridiculous bar.

    Seems like history now though.
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  50. #250  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Scotland (I mean a large minority and a potential majority of it at present) would like that outcome but it would probably have to reapply for membership and this would run the risk of a veto from countries like Spain with their own recalcitrant regions.

    As for NI ,the same might apply but they might have a fast track on account of the Good Friday Agreement where there exists special agreements on the island of Ireland.

    There would be very little straightforward in organising these unnecessary and unfortunate separations.

    It would have been far better for the Brexit referendum to have taken into account the separate members of the Union rather than just adding up all the votes for the Union as a whole. Also 50% was a ridiculous bar.

    Seems like history now though.
    Regarding NI, the likely route would be a border poll, by which they would simply join the South, so no application to the EU needed. Simple. I agree Scotland might find the path less straight forward.
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    NI seems to be a problem. Most people want an open border. Most people (Protestants) want to stay in UK. How to reconcile? Unionists don't like current Johnson agreement, since the Irish Sea becomes a customs border.
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  52. #252  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    NI seems to be a problem. Most people want an open border. Most people (Protestants) want to stay in UK. How to reconcile? Unionists don't like current Johnson agreement, since the Irish Sea becomes a customs border.
    Not just Protestants a comfortable majority of people would probably have voted to remain in the UK before Brexit came along .

    But most people in NI voted to remain in the EU and so Brexit could influence their preference.

    Lucky them,they can wait to see how it plays out and jump into the camp they are most comfortable in.

    I am unsure as to how recalcitrant (ie violent) the Ulster Unionists paramilitaries would be if the vote went against them and whether the South would be keen to take over the responsibility of the North if push comes to shove.
    Last edited by geordief; October 30th, 2019 at 06:07 AM.
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  53. #253  
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    Complete madness holding a GE just before the shortest day.
    About 8 hours at the most of daylight. In parts of Scotland it could get dark from 2pm.
    Seems to be some sort of ploy to bring out the voters who are most likely to vote Tory.
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  54. #254  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Scotland (I mean a large minority and a potential majority of it at present) would like that outcome but it would probably have to reapply for membership and this would run the risk of a veto from countries like Spain with their own recalcitrant regions.

    As for NI ,the same might apply but they might have a fast track on account of the Good Friday Agreement where there exists special agreements on the island of Ireland.

    There would be very little straightforward in organising these unnecessary and unfortunate separations.

    It would have been far better for the Brexit referendum to have taken into account the separate members of the Union rather than just adding up all the votes for the Union as a whole. Also 50% was a ridiculous bar.

    Seems like history now though.
    So it sounds like that if the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK in response, Scotland and Northern Ireland will still be out of the EU and have to reapply for membership if they wish to?
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  55. #255  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    Regarding NI, the likely route would be a border poll, by which they would simply join the South, so no application to the EU needed. Simple. I agree Scotland might find the path less straight forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post

    So it sounds like that if the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK in response, Scotland and Northern Ireland will still be out of the EU and have to reapply for membership if they wish to?
    Exchemist ,quoted above has said they could be more or less fast tracked into the EU if the N and S of Ireland united first.

    I don't see that as a simple endeavour.
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  56. #256  
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    Just been listening to Corbyn, who has lost the plot already.
    Why is he targeting business people?
    GE is effectively the second Brexit referendum.
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  57. #257  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    Regarding NI, the likely route would be a border poll, by which they would simply join the South, so no application to the EU needed. Simple. I agree Scotland might find the path less straight forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post

    So it sounds like that if the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK in response, Scotland and Northern Ireland will still be out of the EU and have to reapply for membership if they wish to?
    Exchemist ,quoted above has said they could be more or less fast tracked into the EU if the N and S of Ireland united first.

    I don't see that as a simple endeavour.
    I've looked into this and here is someone who agrees with you: https://constitution-unit.com/2019/1...l-hard-truths/

    Reading this, it is not that the EU would raise difficulties: they couldn't, since they are pledged to uphold the Good Friday Agreement. The risk is that a poll comes about too soon, as a a result of London's cack-handedness and lack of interest in Ireland, before society and Irish politics on both sides of the border are properly prepared for it.
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  58. #258  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    Regarding NI, the likely route would be a border poll, by which they would simply join the South, so no application to the EU needed. Simple. I agree Scotland might find the path less straight forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post

    So it sounds like that if the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK in response, Scotland and Northern Ireland will still be out of the EU and have to reapply for membership if they wish to?
    Exchemist ,quoted above has said they could be more or less fast tracked into the EU if the N and S of Ireland united first.

    I don't see that as a simple endeavour.
    So if the UK left the EU and Northern Ireland and Scotland joined Southern Ireland, after leaving the UK, in response, they would effectively be back in the EU?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post



    So if the UK left the EU and Northern Ireland and Scotland joined Southern Ireland, after leaving the UK, in response, they would effectively be back in the EU?
    Well both NI and Scotland would first have to be "accepted" by S Ireland.

    That would be very unlikely in the case of Scotland and not a certainty in the case of NI.

    I think you may be one of the first to conceive of the idea of a union between Ireland and Scotland.

    It seems inconceivable to me.
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  60. #260  
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    A union between the 4 Celtic nations of Wales, Scotland, and the 2 Irelands is very possible.
    It would then be easier for the outside 3 to re join the EU and accept the European currency.
    Wales' national party want their own independence referendum. I can see that happening soon after Scotland gain independence.
    England would also be better off without them.
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  61. #261  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post



    So if the UK left the EU and Northern Ireland and Scotland joined Southern Ireland, after leaving the UK, in response, they would effectively be back in the EU?
    Well both NI and Scotland would first have to be "accepted" by S Ireland.

    That would be very unlikely in the case of Scotland and not a certainty in the case of NI.

    I think you may be one of the first to conceive of the idea of a union between Ireland and Scotland.

    It seems inconceivable to me.
    In my mind England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland all share Celtic Briton ancestry so I would imagine a union between any of the four of those peoples, or between all four of those peoples, makes a bit of sense in that genetic respect. Borders and alliances have been shifting and changing on the British Isles for generations.
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  62. #262  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post



    So if the UK left the EU and Northern Ireland and Scotland joined Southern Ireland, after leaving the UK, in response, they would effectively be back in the EU?
    Well both NI and Scotland would first have to be "accepted" by S Ireland.

    That would be very unlikely in the case of Scotland and not a certainty in the case of NI.

    I think you may be one of the first to conceive of the idea of a union between Ireland and Scotland.

    It seems inconceivable to me.
    In my mind England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland all share Celtic Briton ancestry so I would imagine a union between any of the four of those peoples, or between all four of those peoples, makes a bit of sense in that genetic respect. Borders and alliances have been shifting and changing on the British Isles for generations.
    The Western part of Scotland used to be part of the N. Irish Kingdom of Dalriada, I think, so it has a historical precedent, at least.
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  63. #263  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    In my mind England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland all share Celtic Briton ancestry
    While it's true that in many parts of England there are Celtic remains, you won't find too many referring to themselves as much other than Anglo-Saxon, unless they are immigrants.
    The southern Irish are basically Catholics. The N. Irish more a split between Protestant and Catholic. That's enough to create serious division.

    Borders and alliances have been shifting and changing on the British Isles for generations.
    Over many centuries, maybe. The Romans invaded England but kept their distance a bit from the Scots and Welsh. The Anglo-Saxons and Normans invaded England and did likewise. The English have invaded Scotland and the Scots have invaded England. The English have invaded Wales. The British as a whole have invaded just about everywhere on the planet.
    As times change there are a lot of noisy neighbours now and the UK could break up.
    The UK is so divided about Brexit, I still can't envisage it happening.
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  64. #264  
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    After Donald Tusk's comments about a special place in Hell for Brexiteers, he now describes Brexit as the end of the British Empire.
    The BE did of course cease to be after the 2nd World War, so it shows how informed he is.
    Another example of foreign interference in our democratic elections.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    After Donald Tusk's comments about a special place in Hell for Brexiteers, he now describes Brexit as the end of the British Empire.
    The BE did of course cease to be after the 2nd World War, so it shows how informed he is.
    Another example of foreign interference in our democratic elections.
    Try a better newspaper. What he said is that Brexsh1tters hope to return to the British Empire.

    I notice you have not objected to Trump's interference. But perhaps being American is not "foreign" to you, because Trump happens to speak a mangled version of English.
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    Whether it's the EU or Russia or America they should not be interfering in our politics.
    I take it you will be voting for a certain Meerkat look alike.
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    I do not think that the Donald is interfering in British politics at all. The Donald is simply expressing his opinions and diplomatically reaching out, to the potential winner, of the up coming General Election this December.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    I do not think that the Donald is interfering in British politics at all.
    And trade deals were never in his mind.

    Trump said Mr Corbyn would be "so bad" as prime minister and that Mr Johnson was "the exact right guy for the times".

    Exact right guy.
    Exact right guy. Exact right guy.
    Say it 3 times and it must be true.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Whether it's the EU or Russia or America they should not be interfering in our politics.
    I take it you will be voting for a certain Meerkat look alike.
    Although usually a Tory voter, I shall vote Labour, because in my constituency that is the best way to use my vote tactically against Bozolini. Battersea is already a Labour seat and will remain one. My brother in Richmond, a lifelong Tory, will vote Lib Dem and help unseat Zac Goldsmith. I'm not sure either of us will ever vote Conservative again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post



    So if the UK left the EU and Northern Ireland and Scotland joined Southern Ireland, after leaving the UK, in response, they would effectively be back in the EU?
    Well both NI and Scotland would first have to be "accepted" by S Ireland.

    That would be very unlikely in the case of Scotland and not a certainty in the case of NI.

    I think you may be one of the first to conceive of the idea of a union between Ireland and Scotland.

    It seems inconceivable to me.
    In my mind England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland all share Celtic Briton ancestry so I would imagine a union between any of the four of those peoples, or between all four of those peoples, makes a bit of sense in that genetic respect. Borders and alliances have been shifting and changing on the British Isles for generations.
    The Western part of Scotland used to be part of the N. Irish Kingdom of Dalriada, I think, so it has a historical precedent, at least.
    That sounds like a solid connection between Ireland and Scotland.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    While it's true that in many parts of England there are Celtic remains, you won't find too many referring to themselves as much other than Anglo-Saxon, unless they are immigrants.
    The southern Irish are basically Catholics. The N. Irish more a split between Protestant and Catholic. That's enough to create serious division.
    So England is mostly a country of Catholic and Protestant Anglo-Saxons? English people have some Norman-French roots too, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Over many centuries, maybe. The Romans invaded England but kept their distance a bit from the Scots and Welsh. The Anglo-Saxons and Normans invaded England and did likewise. The English have invaded Scotland and the Scots have invaded England. The English have invaded Wales. The British as a whole have invaded just about everywhere on the planet.
    As times change there are a lot of noisy neighbours now and the UK could break up.
    The UK is so divided about Brexit, I still can't envisage it happening.
    Sounds like a lot of different peoples have set foot on and clashed on the British Isles.
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  72. #272  
    ox
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    So England is mostly a country of Catholic and Protestant Anglo-Saxons? English people have some Norman-French roots too, right?
    England is quite a mix because since the Norman invasion it has welcomed people from all over the world as refugees and immigrants, while the other countries in the UK and Ireland have been more resistant.
    Last edited by ox; November 16th, 2019 at 07:21 AM.
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  73. #273  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Although usually a Tory voter, I shall vote Labour, because in my constituency that is the best way to use my vote tactically against Bozolini. Battersea is already a Labour seat and will remain one. My brother in Richmond, a lifelong Tory, will vote Lib Dem and help unseat Zac Goldsmith. I'm not sure either of us will ever vote Conservative again.
    I doubt if I'll vote Tory again. I was going to vote for the Brexit Party, but since I live in a Tory constituency I can't now.
    I won't vote Labour until they get rid of Corbyn and his Marxisteers.

    One thing Corbyn has in his favour is the name Jeremy Corbyn. It has a better sound than Boris Johnson.
    The initials JC are shared by a very famous religious leader and a Roman emperor.
    What's in a name? A lot. Margaret Thatcher v Neil Kinnock. No contest there.

    Would a famous dictator have come to power in Germany had his father not changed his name from Schicklgruber?
    Heil Schicklgruber! would not have sounded at all good.
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  74. #274  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    So England is mostly a country of Catholic and Protestant Anglo-Saxons? English people have some Norman-French roots too, right?
    England is quite a mix because since the Norman invasion it has welcomed people from all over the world as refugees and immigrants, while the other countries in the UK and Ireland have been more resistant.
    It is cool to know England is a diverse place with many different cultures living there.
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    Wild suggestion: England secedes from UK. UK remains in EU and England does what it wants.
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  76. #276  
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    There is a party agitating for that.

    It is called the Monster Raving Loony Sessessionist Party of the Heartlands.

    Actually it is affiliated to the Conservative and (anti)Unionist Party.
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