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Thread: Are we going to live in a utopia soon?

  1. #1 Are we going to live in a utopia soon? 
    Forum Freshman Angelo_Maligno's Avatar
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    Given that more and more fields are becoming automatized do you think one day we'll reach a point where it will produce a utopia? Could socialists take advantage of this situation where some people may be rendered unemployable and assert power over the poorer classes? Will we see the fall of capitalist and mixed economies? Do you think communism could work better if we have robots do most of the labor? Any other related thoughts?


    "You will know destiny by the nature of things." - Either My Psychosis Or The Archangel Of Destiny
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  3. #2  
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    Assertion of power is political. Fr example, both China and Viet Nam claim to be communist, but in fact they both have become capitalists and the "communist" party is a cover for a political dictatorship. It is likely that more and more physical labor will be done by robots. How it affects society will very much depend on the political structures.


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  4. #3  
    Your Mama! GiantEvil's Avatar
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    An important consideration of utopia is “whose utopia”?
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
    -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.-
    Cat's Cradle.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Freshman Angelo_Maligno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Assertion of power is political. Fr example, both China and Viet Nam claim to be communist, but in fact they both have become capitalists and the "communist" party is a cover for a political dictatorship. It is likely that more and more physical labor will be done by robots. How it affects society will very much depend on the political structures.
    I was talking about western democratic nations mostly I should have clarified that. Most countries have mixed economies at this point anyway. You can just look at western federal spending and ask yourself how many of the government programs a socialist would want. I'm not even sure if western economies count as fully capitalist anymore. Many western countries have heavy regulations I personally wouldn't consider a "free market" anymore. Maybe that's just me though and I'm taking the idea of "free" to a bit of an extreme.

    Regardless I would guess that automation would effect democratic nations in a similar way. We could guess that if a large section of the population becomes unemployed they will vote more wealth into their hands. You can generally rely on people to act in their own interests. What kinds of effects that would have on the economy I have no idea though. In some cases you could get heavy taxes on the rich in another set of cases the nation could go very deep into debt. There may be some other effects I haven't considered. Perhaps this will completely obliterate the traditional family which relies on women getting resources from men to take care of the household. I would guess once you disrupt that balance you get single parenthood households. I believe that has been happening in poor households since the introduction of welfare.

    Sorry if that was a bit long, my mind wanders.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman Angelo_Maligno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    An important consideration of utopia is “whose utopia”?
    That's a very good question. Well it will probably be some kind of post-scarcity utopia. Several variations of it most likely. The west already somewhat lives in one except for a small percentage of people. With a high level of automation chances are prices will drop as competing companies won't have to pay as much to produce goods. Generally robots are getting cheaper and better as time goes on.

    I've forgotten the name of the experiment but it simulated a post-scarcity society with mice. In the experiment the mice eventually stopped mating behaviors. This may explain our current predicament in first world nations which need to import people because their birthrates are so low. The irony could be that if one nation is so extremely successful it dies out.
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    The way society is going we'll have too many problems erupting too soon.

    1. We have a global climate crisis with extreme heating (globally, obviously) - and it's only getting worse. Every year. There's no concrete amount of time we have left before it's completely and utterly irreversible, but on average it's around 10-60 years (which isn't long, even on the 60 years side of the spectrum) and no one seems to care.

    2. The amount of oil we rely on is excessive - The U.S. uses about 86 million barrels of oil a day, and the U.S. has about a 1.7 trillion barrel reserve of oil - but divide that over and you find that we have 19767 days - or about until 2070 (52 years) to completely cut our ties to oil and start using renewable energy. Likely wont happen, and we'll have a national energy crisis on our hands.

    3. In the U.S., a major world superpower, is having one of the worst political divides in centuries - Socially, we're losing our right to free speech because no one wants to hear what anyone else is saying; this is perpetuated by social media and the simple fact that anyone can find others who think like them and assume they have the right opinion - even if their argument is based on a completely false foundation.

    4. Plastic is so overproduced - and somehow people got the great idea to make disposable cups out of a material that conservatively takes about 500 years to break down and decompose. We as humans have let this problem inflate to the point where there's microplastics about everywhere. Pollution is a huge problem.

    and yet the most mainstream and widespread problem a millennial knows about and has legitimate arguments about is PC society concerning gender - a topic trivial compared to what the ignorant masses could be really concerned about. If we cut out reliance on oil we'd solve 2 of these problems in one fell swoop. It's crap like this that people look past. I've literally heard a millennial ask "I wonder if there's any oil on the moon." Like, how uneducated do you have to be to declare this mildly intelligible? Oil is made out of compressed animal corpses left over from the Jurassic Period...

    Could AI solve all of these problems? Without it being absolutely wrong the first time (which is highly unlikely) would be a miracle.

    If you believe in miracles, humans may be able to retain their stature on earth. But I doubt we'll be able to stay here for much longer.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnMcChief View Post
    and yet the most mainstream and widespread problem a millennial knows about and has legitimate arguments about is PC society concerning gender
    I don't know any millennials who think the biggest problem we face is gender identity.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnMcChief View Post
    The way society is going we'll have too many problems erupting too soon.

    1. We have a global climate crisis with extreme heating (globally, obviously) - and it's only getting worse. Every year. There's no concrete amount of time we have left before it's completely and utterly irreversible, but on average it's around 10-60 years (which isn't long, even on the 60 years side of the spectrum) and no one seems to care.

    2. The amount of oil we rely on is excessive - The U.S. uses about 86 million barrels of oil a day, and the U.S. has about a 1.7 trillion barrel reserve of oil - but divide that over and you find that we have 19767 days - or about until 2070 (52 years) to completely cut our ties to oil and start using renewable energy. Likely wont happen, and we'll have a national energy crisis on our hands.

    3. In the U.S., a major world superpower, is having one of the worst political divides in centuries - Socially, we're losing our right to free speech because no one wants to hear what anyone else is saying; this is perpetuated by social media and the simple fact that anyone can find others who think like them and assume they have the right opinion - even if their argument is based on a completely false foundation.

    4. Plastic is so overproduced - and somehow people got the great idea to make disposable cups out of a material that conservatively takes about 500 years to break down and decompose. We as humans have let this problem inflate to the point where there's microplastics about everywhere. Pollution is a huge problem.

    and yet the most mainstream and widespread problem a millennial knows about and has legitimate arguments about is PC society concerning gender - a topic trivial compared to what the ignorant masses could be really concerned about. If we cut out reliance on oil we'd solve 2 of these problems in one fell swoop. It's crap like this that people look past. I've literally heard a millennial ask "I wonder if there's any oil on the moon." Like, how uneducated do you have to be to declare this mildly intelligible? Oil is made out of compressed animal corpses left over from the Jurassic Period...

    Could AI solve all of these problems? Without it being absolutely wrong the first time (which is highly unlikely) would be a miracle.

    If you believe in miracles, humans may be able to retain their stature on earth. But I doubt we'll be able to stay here for much longer.
    I agree with billvon, gender identity is NOT the biggest or the only problem on millennial minds.

    I can say this as a gay millennial, you are tar-papering the generation based on a few encounters and bad tv stereotypes.
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  10. #9  
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    What is meant by Utopia does matter. Some thoughts -

    Not having to work to live may prove to be psychologically damaging for a lot of people and damaged people can become problematic - bread and circuses can become a necessary expenditure for the sake of social cohesion, or at least be deemed a lower cost and more humane option than dealing with social disruptions through enforcement and punishment. Which is, I think, already the case in many nations, in the form of social welfare programs. Rather than being purely short sighted selfishness by the recipients, such programs can be seen as a longer sighted kind of selfishness, by those who provide them; ie they represent costly problems that are avoided.

    What if virtual reality means a modest home can appear to be a mansion, ie that actual material objects and wealth can be faked well enough that a frugal, low economic cost lifestyle is not just comfortable but desirable? I do think economic growth hits up against real world limitations and expectations of universal prosperity for large global populations are not reasonable, so tolerance, if not desirability of less resource intensive lifestyles could be essential. Robotics may reduce need for human labour but they have resource and energy costs too - likely adding significantly to per capita resource requirements rather than reducing them, unless the material requirement per capita are kept in check.
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