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Thread: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels

  1. #1 Prostitution should be legalized in brothels 
    Forum Freshman Coveny's Avatar
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    First off I will provide the rules for brothels as:
    1. They require condoms.
    2. They accept any customer.
    3. They must prove they are free of STDs regularly. (monthly)
    4. Each person has their own prices and list of what they are willing to do.


    In 2003 Rhode Island, accidentally decriminalized prostitution. The effects of this were “caused both forcible rape offenses and gonorrhea incidence to decline for the overall population. Our synthetic control model finds 824 fewer reported rape offenses (31 percent decrease) and 1,035 fewer cases of female gonorrhea (39 percent decrease) from 2004 to 2009”
    Decriminalizing Indoor Prostitution: Implications for Sexual Violence and Public Health

    This breaks down into two argument in favor of legalized prostitution.

    1) Rape dropped by 824. The effects of which will affect the victim for the rest of their lives.
    https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawpreven...alimpact.shtml

    2) Gonorrhea dropped by 1,035. STDs are a critical health concern affecting this country.
    https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/3805.pdf

    3) It is hypocrisy with prostitution being illegal, while porn is legal. Whatever argument can be for or against, one can be made for the other.
    CNN.com - The legal line between porn and prostitution - Aug 12, 2005

    4) No one sees any problem with massages. No one sees any problem getting their hair, nails, or feet done. In all these cases, you are paying another human being to touch you. How is sex any different?

    5) Freedom is being able to choose what you do with your body. Choosing to have sex with someone for money is no different.


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    Under what circumstances would you be happy for your daughter to work in such a brothel?


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    Forum Freshman Coveny's Avatar
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    I would be happy for her if she were happy. I don't feel like sex is inherently degrading to women, or that woman don't enjoy having a bunch of sex... just like men. I see no issues with my daughter having as much sex as she wants, for money, so long as she's safe about contracting diseases. For me it's about what makes her happy. It's not like every person in this country doesn't whore themselves out in one way or another in whatever job they have, at least they are honest about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coveny View Post
    I would be happy for her if she were happy. I don't feel like sex is inherently degrading to women, or that woman don't enjoy having a bunch of sex... just like men. I see no issues with my daughter having as much sex as she wants, for money, so long as she's safe about contracting diseases. For me it's about what makes her happy. It's not like every person in this country doesn't whore themselves out in one way or another in whatever job they have, at least they are honest about it.
    Seems unlikely she would be happy doing it(although I can see how she could prefer it to other occupations if her choice was restricted).
    But I don't find the implicit comparison of to enjoying lots of sex to prostitution is valid.
    The former seems like a choice ,the latter (as its advocates are happy to say) a job .

    My own position on the question is that they may be a necessary evil and that the circumstances surrounding the activity are far worse than the activity itself.

    I don't feel that the bolded (bolded by me) section of your post really deserves a reply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coveny View Post
    I would be happy for her if she were happy. I don't feel like sex is inherently degrading to women, or that woman don't enjoy having a bunch of sex... just like men. I see no issues with my daughter having as much sex as she wants, for money, so long as she's safe about contracting diseases. For me it's about what makes her happy. It's not like every person in this country doesn't whore themselves out in one way or another in whatever job they have, at least they are honest about it.
    Seems unlikely she would be happy doing it(although I can see how she could prefer it to other occupations if her choice was restricted).
    But I don't find the implicit comparison of to enjoying lots of sex to prostitution is valid.
    The former seems like a choice ,the latter (as its advocates are happy to say) a job .

    My own position on the question is that they may be a necessary evil and that the circumstances surrounding the activity are far worse than the activity itself.

    I don't feel that the bolded (bolded by me) section of your post really deserves a reply.

    I've always found it strange that the idea of a male prostitute is like the dream job, and the idea of a female prostitute is degrading to women. Our culture has this mentality that sex is somehow inherently degrading to women, and that they should do as little of it as possible. That's very illogical to me. There are roughly 160 million women in the USA I find it hard to believe none of them don't enjoy being sexually promiscuous, and wouldn't find a job where they got paid to have sex enjoyable. I mean make no mistake it's still a job, and just like every other job there would be days where it wasn't as fun, or you did something you didn't enjoy as much or whatever. But if you enjoy sex, why wouldn't you enjoy being a prostitute? That's a valid expectation, if it helps just conceptualize the prostitute as a man and then after you agree with me, all you need do is understand that woman can enjoy sex with multiple partners just as much as a man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coveny View Post


    I've always found it strange that the idea of a male prostitute is like the dream job, and the idea of a female prostitute is degrading to women. Our culture has this mentality that sex is somehow inherently degrading to women, and that they should do as little of it as possible. That's very illogical to me. There are roughly 160 million women in the USA I find it hard to believe none of them don't enjoy being sexually promiscuous, and wouldn't find a job where they got paid to have sex enjoyable. I mean make no mistake it's still a job, and just like every other job there would be days where it wasn't as fun, or you did something you didn't enjoy as much or whatever. But if you enjoy sex, why wouldn't you enjoy being a prostitute? That's a valid expectation, if it helps just conceptualize the prostitute as a man and then after you agree with me, all you need do is understand that woman can enjoy sex with multiple partners just as much as a man.
    A separate issue as to whether or not prostitution should be regularized -or as to whether or not prostitution as a profession should be lauded or regretted.
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    Forum Freshman Coveny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Under what circumstances would you be happy for your daughter to work in such a brothel?
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Seems unlikely she would be happy doing it
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    A separate issue as to whether or not prostitution should be regularized
    You brought the issue up as a counter to legalized prostitution, I merely followed you down your tangent. Shall I assume that you recant the "you wouldn't support this if it was your daughter" position and have left my suggestion unrefuted?
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    This is a science forum. Here, the rabbiit holes you may be led down are deep and dark and you may find quickly that in fact you're following ferrets when you thought you were innocently, charmingly and perhaps even strangely engaging in an intellectual conversation.

    Your point seems to be on the legalisation issue rather than personal family relationships. Interestingly you reference statistics from Rhode Island where legalisation measures were accidentally taken (???). It seems likely that any legalisation of something which is not intrinsically harmful to the individual allows for greater freedom to manage that something without it being stuffed into the dark recesses of Underground, where abuse, rather than management, is most likely to occur.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantumologist View Post
    This is a science forum. Here, the rabbiit holes you may be led down are deep and dark and you may find quickly that in fact you're following ferrets when you thought you were innocently, charmingly and perhaps even strangely engaging in an intellectual conversation.

    Your point seems to be on the legalisation issue rather than personal family relationships. Interestingly you reference statistics from Rhode Island where legalisation measures were accidentally taken (???). It seems likely that any legalisation of something which is not intrinsically harmful to the individual allows for greater freedom to manage that something without it being stuffed into the dark recesses of Underground, where abuse, rather than management, is most likely to occur.
    Personal family relationship imply you have a family or you have relations. This is not true for everyone, so I don't see it as a viable method to address the sexual abuse in this country. Also I am advocating it in brothels rather than "greater freedom" as you put it. More support of the use of brothels can be found in this article. http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/islandor...tream/PDF/view
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coveny View Post

    You brought the issue up as a counter to legalized prostitution, I merely followed you down your tangent. Shall I assume that you recant the "you wouldn't support this if it was your daughter" position and have left my suggestion unrefuted?
    How is a question a "position"?(it wasn't a rhetorical question)

    Is your "suggestion" your OP as a whole? If so why would anyone accept it uncritically?

    I wasn't attempting to address your points one by one , just to make an odd point.

    I do accept it is a very important debate ,just not one I feel qualified to say too much about.

    On a lighter note,(addressing point#2 in the OP) the first time I approached a prostitute I was rejected and the second time I was verbally abused.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Under what circumstances would you be happy for your daughter to work in such a brothel?
    I wouldn't want mine to. But I also wouldn't want her to be a personal injury lawyer, or to have a position in the Nazi party. That doesn't mean that those positions should be outlawed, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Under what circumstances would you be happy for your daughter to work in such a brothel?
    I wouldn't want mine to. But I also wouldn't want her to be a personal injury lawyer, or to have a position in the Nazi party. That doesn't mean that those positions should be outlawed, though.
    What under no conditions? There must be circumstances when the greater good is achieved at the expense of short term hardship.

    Aside from that , how should legislators take into account peoples' feelings regarding situations like this? Do they assume that peoples' feeling change over time and so they simply legislate for the greater good as they see it?

    What about their own personal feelings ? They cannot separate them out ,can they?
    Last edited by geordief; October 23rd, 2017 at 06:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Under what circumstances would you be happy for your daughter to work in such a brothel?
    I wouldn't want mine to. But I also wouldn't want her to be a personal injury lawyer, or to have a position in the Nazi party. That doesn't mean that those positions should be outlawed, though.
    What under no conditions? There must be circumstances when the greater good is achieved at the expense of short term hardship.

    Aside from that , how should legislators take into account peoples' feelings regarding situations like this? Do they assume that peoples' feeling change over time and so they simply legislate for the greater good as they see it?

    What about their own personal feelings ? They cannot separate them out ,can they?
    Personal feelings have to deal with freedom. You a person has the personal feelings that they don't want to be a sex worker, they don't have to be and no one can force them. The same holds true for clients, if they have personal feelings that it's "wrong" they simply absent for the practice. Having the service available means that the odds are someone will feel like doing the job is worth it to them personally, and that is a boon for the greater good because it allows a legal release rather than an illegal one. Rape and molestation is an epidemic is this country, obviously outlawing it has not worked, so let address it like mature adults and allow adults to make arrangements for sex just like we allow adults to make arrangements for any other service.
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    Would you extend the same argument to illegal drugs?
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    Actually I would for a large portion of them, control and supervision, rather then ostracism. See the shifts that happened with abortion availability and acceptance
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Would you extend the same argument to illegal drugs?
    I would be more open with illegal drugs, although there are some that I believe because of their likelihood to cause addiction I want to restrict more strongly. (but that's a different debate)
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    What under no conditions? There must be circumstances when the greater good is achieved at the expense of short term hardship.
    There are absolutely conditions under which it should be illegal - human trafficking, lying to conceal the presence of an STD, underage prostitutes/customers etc. But outside those conditions, it should be legal. It's good for public health, good for women's rights and good for law enforcement.
    Aside from that , how should legislators take into account peoples' feelings regarding situations like this? Do they assume that peoples' feeling change over time and so they simply legislate for the greater good as they see it?
    Well, my own feelings on the issue is that legislators should do what they feel is right. Most, of course, do what will get them re-elected.
    What about their own personal feelings ? They cannot separate them out ,can they?
    ??? I support gay rights, women's rights and minority rights, even though I am none of those categories - and even though it makes me uncomfortable to get hit on in gay bars. I support pot legalization even though I've never used it and frankly think it's disgusting. If I can do it, I'd expect politicians to be able to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    What under no conditions? There must be circumstances when the greater good is achieved at the expense of short term hardship.
    There are absolutely conditions under which it should be illegal - human trafficking, lying to conceal the presence of an STD, underage prostitutes/customers etc. But outside those conditions, it should be legal. It's good for public health, good for women's rights and good for law enforcement.
    Interesting ,I intended (and still think I did) to ask under what conditions it would be the right choice to work in a brothel and you seem to have taken it as "under what conditions it should be outlawed" -unless you were rhetorically ignoring the question and setting up a contrary premise.

    I think that may be a permissable tactic when it is obvious but I was confused here.

    Taking your question at face value,I agree. Sometimes the law has to be applied even when it cannot be done so successfully simply so as not to forget who we are and to allow ourselves to live in the gutter.
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    You seem to be assuming that working in a brothel is "living in the gutter" cite your source that this is in anyway so, uunder the conditions outlined in the op, and given the data from places where it is not an illegal and ostracized profession.

    You seem to be the one bringing a lot of preconceived imagery to the discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You seem to be assuming that working in a brothel is "living in the gutter" cite your source that this is in anyway so, uunder the conditions outlined in the op, and given the data from places where it is not an illegal and ostracized profession.

    You seem to be the one bringing a lot of preconceived imagery to the discussion.
    You have misunderstood my argument (why?). The gutter I was referring to was the acceptance of practices such as the slave trade.

    I have also indicated early in the thread that I was for legalized brothels in some form. (I stand by my feeling that it is a degrading activity nonetheless-but I don't need references for this subjective assessment)
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    And at no point has ANYONE advocated for slave trading, but your post are making this seem like a black or white situation where it all must be illegal or all depravity occurs.

    Three different posters have come to the same conclusion looking at your posts, I suggest you look at the wording you are using and rephrase for clarity...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    And at no point has ANYONE advocated for slave trading, but your post are making this seem like a black or white situation where it all must be illegal or all depravity occurs.

    Three different posters have come to the same conclusion looking at your posts, I suggest you look at the wording you are using and rephrase for clarity...
    Billvon brought up "illegal - human trafficking" in post 17 and I was referring back to that as an activity which if allowed put us all in the gutter

    As I have been misunderstood/misinterpreted now twice I am going to give this thread a rest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Interesting ,I intended (and still think I did) to ask under what conditions it would be the right choice to work in a brothel and you seem to have taken it as "under what conditions it should be outlawed" -unless you were rhetorically ignoring the question and setting up a contrary premise.
    Under what conditions would it be the RIGHT choice for someone to work in a brothel? That is entirely up to them. I imagine people who like to have sex a lot, and don't have any moral qualms with making money from it.

    The topic of the thread was "prostitution should be legalized" and I was replying in the framework of that topic. Governments outlaw things; they do not choose what sort of work is right for what person.
    Taking your question at face value,I agree. Sometimes the law has to be applied even when it cannot be done so successfully simply so as not to forget who we are and to allow ourselves to live in the gutter.
    I am not sure what you mean. I agree that the law has to be applied. This thread is arguing that prostitution should be legalized more widely than it is now - and I agree with that premise. I don't think we should break the law, nor should we "forget who we are" or "live in the gutter."
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    A worthwhile and relevant TED talk about the prostitution industry and how it's handled in many nations and some of the results and considerations and finally her opinion about what most sex workers want.https://www.ted.com/talks/juno_mac_t...rs_really_want
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    What under no conditions? There must be circumstances when the greater good is achieved at the expense of short term hardship.
    There are absolutely conditions under which it should be illegal - human trafficking, lying to conceal the presence of an STD, underage prostitutes/customers etc. But outside those conditions, it should be legal. It's good for public health, good for women's rights and good for law enforcement.
    Aside from that , how should legislators take into account peoples' feelings regarding situations like this? Do they assume that peoples' feeling change over time and so they simply legislate for the greater good as they see it?
    Well, my own feelings on the issue is that legislators should do what they feel is right. Most, of course, do what will get them re-elected.
    What about their own personal feelings ? They cannot separate them out ,can they?
    ??? I support gay rights, women's rights and minority rights, even though I am none of those categories - and even though it makes me uncomfortable to get hit on in gay bars.
    It begs the question, " if you are uncomfortable getting hit on in gay bars, why go to a gay bar?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coveny View Post
    First off I will provide the rules for brothels as:
    1. They require condoms.
    2. They accept any customer.
    3. They must prove they are free of STDs regularly. (monthly)
    4. Each person has their own prices and list of what they are willing to do.


    In 2003 Rhode Island, accidentally decriminalized prostitution. The effects of this were “caused both forcible rape offenses and gonorrhea incidence to decline for the overall population. Our synthetic control model finds 824 fewer reported rape offenses (31 percent decrease) and 1,035 fewer cases of female gonorrhea (39 percent decrease) from 2004 to 2009”
    Decriminalizing Indoor Prostitution: Implications for Sexual Violence and Public Health

    This breaks down into two argument in favor of legalized prostitution.

    1) Rape dropped by 824. The effects of which will affect the victim for the rest of their lives.
    https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawpreven...alimpact.shtml

    2) Gonorrhea dropped by 1,035. STDs are a critical health concern affecting this country.
    https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/3805.pdf

    3) It is hypocrisy with prostitution being illegal, while porn is legal. Whatever argument can be for or against, one can be made for the other.
    CNN.com - The legal line between porn and prostitution - Aug 12, 2005

    4) No one sees any problem with massages. No one sees any problem getting their hair, nails, or feet done. In all these cases, you are paying another human being to touch you. How is sex any different?

    5) Freedom is being able to choose what you do with your body. Choosing to have sex with someone for money is no different.
    Back to the OP. I do not see anything wrong with legalised prostitution, it can keep a lot of bad people from committing serious crime against women, and even men.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    It begs the question, " if you are uncomfortable getting hit on in gay bars, why go to a gay bar?
    Because some friends of mine were there.
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    it can keep a lot of bad people from committing serious crime against women, and even men.


    Do you mean because it would regulate in some protections for women?

    Or some other reason?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    it can keep a lot of bad people from committing serious crime against women, and even men.


    Do you mean because it would regulate in some protections for women?

    Or some other reason?
    I have a gut feeling that if prostitution was legalised sex crimes would diminish, and those working as prostitutes would be safer. This article from a study done quite a few years ago backs up my feelings.
    Prostitution and Sex Crimes: Independent Institute

    "Abstract: In this paper I examine the hypothesis that the frequency of rape is increased when another source of sex (prostitution) is limited or unavailable. To test this theory I regressed the rape rate in available OECD countries against a proxy for the availability of prostitution. The relationship was found to be anti-correlated at about the 90% confidence level. Using this model, it is estimated that if prostitution were legalized in the United States, the rape rate would decrease by roughly 25% for a decrease of approximately 25,000 rapes per year. "
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coveny View Post
    rules for brothels:
    1. They require condoms.
    2. They accept any customer.
    3. They must prove they are free of STDs regularly. (monthly)
    4. Each person has their own prices and list of what they are willing to do.
    Compare to street prostitution in Vancouver, Canada, where brothels are illegal (prostitution itself is not):
    1. Condoms, absolutely. 26% of our sex workers have HIV, perhaps from needle sharing.
    2. They certainly do not accept any john. "Bad Johns" are known and shunned in the community.
    3. Johns assume the workers have STDs.
    4. Street workers also offer different services and fees.


    Rule #2 I think we can ignore. Surely Coveny didn't mean a known strangler may go into a brothel and demand whichever victim he wants. He didn't mean employees feel any obligation to work when they're not up to it.

    Rule #3 Bars many of our existing prostitutes from brothel work. We already have "high track" and "low track" prostitutes. So Coveny's brothels would represent the high track. A brothel worker who gets an STD from a john is kicked out and becomes low track. Provision for disability leave would help those in the system, but I'm sure there'd be a lot of prostitutes unemployable by Coveny's standards.

    Rule #4 no discussion.

    I mentioned in passing rule #1 something that really needs expanding. The majority of sex workers, in any city, are doing it to survive. The odds of being murdered in this occupation are far higher and they know it. So why? For various sad reasons they can't hold other jobs. In Vancouver practically all prostitutes are drug addicts. I think Coveny has made a case as though sex workers will just do it out of "personal freedom". Perhaps there are a few shiny sex workers like that, but I can't see how the brothel scheme helps the damaged class i.e "the low track".
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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