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Thread: Brexit Progress Update

  1. #1 Brexit Progress Update 
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    Just to provide you guys with an update of how well Brexit is actually proceeding, here is an extract from the latest video of an actual Constitutional Lawyer who is responsible for scrutinising the Governments actions.

    For anyone that wishes you can watch the update in full on Youtube by clicking on the link below:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xN7tw61-vE

    Short quote extract from the full video:

    "So far, the negotiations, just on the mechanics of withdrawal, have already thrown up some obvious points of tension. For example: despite the PM’s rhetoric about guaranteeing citizens’ rights, and not using them as bargaining chips, the UK baffled many of the other Member States by refusing to match (by quite some considerable distance) the EU’s existing offer of a full and reciprocal safeguard for the existing rights of all current migrants. Meanwhile, Tory Europhobes continue their strategy of seeking to whip up tabloid hysteria at any prospect of a financial settlement of the UK’s rights and liabilities – no doubt having identified this as their best chance to sabotage the chances of securing any withdrawal deal at all. Though to be fair, the Government isn’t doing too bad a job of that for itself: just look at their frankly irrational hatred of the European Court of Justice – as distorted and dishonest as anything else in the Leave campaign – which is nevertheless effectively dictating much of the UK’s future relations with the EU.

    If the current negotiations on the mechanics of withdrawal are already at risk of getting bogged down, if not derailed, then any future negotiations towards a framework agreement, covering issues such as trade, security and defence, remain at such a level of sketchiness that they could qualify as work of abstract art. On virtually every single major issue one would expect to address in any significant trade or cooperation agreement, when it comes to the UK’s vision and preferences, we know almost nothing."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    If the current negotiations on the mechanics of withdrawal are already at risk of getting bogged down, if not derailed, then any future negotiations towards a framework agreement, covering issues such as trade, security and defence, remain at such a level of sketchiness that they could qualify as work of abstract art. On virtually every single major issue one would expect to address in any significant trade or cooperation agreement, when it comes to the UK’s vision and preferences, we know almost nothing."
    As one who voted for Brexit, my issues weren't trade, security and defence.
    Is this understood by the negotiators, or are they just interpreting what the voters want?
    Trade with the EU, security and defence will best resolve themselves after Brexit.

    My interpretation on what people did vote for is this -
    About 1-2 million British people have turned their backs on Britain to soak up the sun in places like Spain, and spend their money there. Serves them right that the temperature today is above 40 degrees C, while here it is just right. They should not be welcomed back.
    About 3-5 million people from the EU have uncontrollably poured into Britain wanting jobs, housing, benefits, healthcare, schooling, and transportation which has damaged our infrastructure.
    Most babies born in some areas were born to foreign citizens.
    At the same time I don't know of anyone that is opposed to controlled immigration.

    We are beginning to see the repercussions from the EU now with things like airport queues and yet they are the ones who have chosen in the past to open their borders.
    I used to be astonished at the ease I could cross borders with no border checks and little indication I was even moving into another country. In contrast the UK border has traditionally been a very tight one.
    As for the border between the UK and the Irish Republic, the last time I went there I asked about immigration control at Dun Laoghaire and was told not to bother. 'Just go straight through'.


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    Well, from your comments it would appear that, for you, immigration was the key issue in helping to persuade you to vote in favour of the UK leaving the EU, even though you haven't specifically alluded to this fact.

    I didn't find this to be a particularly convincing issue for several reasons, with perhaps the main one being that I simply don't trust, or have any faith the Conservative Party to deliver any real benefits to anybody regarding the issue of immigration.

    The Conservatives, specifically Theresa May, have had complete control over non-EU immigration policy for a number of years during which such immigration has soared into the hundreds of thousands, even in spite of the near constant government rhetoric that they indeed have it under control.

    The dichotomy between their control over immigration numbers and their claims over actually controlling numbers has been quite staggering. That old adage of: 'the less you plan to do about an issue the more you have to talk about it', seems to have been firmly in play for the entire duration of Conservative rule. It should also be noted that with unemployment falling to 1.5 million, under the governments' official figures, with an accompanying claim of having created 3 million extra jobs and a boost in our economic performance during the 2015-2016 period that saw us leap towards being the fastest growing economy in the G7, the government may well have actually been using immigration and imported labour to grow the economy.

    This would at least explain the discrepancy in government actions differing significantly from their stated objectives over immigration.

    My own concerns over Brexit, it's fair to say, are perhaps coloured by a strong belief in the value of the European Union and a desire for Britain to be a key player in the European Project.

    However this aside I do have some genuine reservations that have little to do with my faith in the importance of the EU.

    Just going back to that issue of trust I eluded to earlier, with the Prime Minister and Parliament pretty much agreed that Brexit is a bad idea I have difficulty believing in their ability to deliver us a positive outcome.

    Speaking during a television interview with Laura Kuenssberg, Theresa May explained that she felt Brexit: "wasn't in our national interest", would "damage our economy" and that it would make us all "less safe". Our parliamentarians voted to allow the government to pursue a policy of leaving the European Union even though the vast majority have expressed the view that it would be the wrong thing to do.

    Sterling has now dropped by over 15% in value against other leading currencies and it isn't attributable to 'Project Fear', it's not propaganda, in fact, it's not even open for debate. It is a verifiable fact that we are now all poorer, our money just doesn't buy as much as it did prior to the referendum. Unfortunately, this isn't the only damaging aspect, this is also indicative of an international collapse of confidence in the British economy, particularly worrisome for the future health of our businesses.

    We were warned of such consequences by prominent supporters of the Remain campaign, perhaps most noticeably by Mark Carney (The Governor of the Bank of England), however, none of the Leave campaigners chose to alert us to this outcome. Whilst we are only left to speculate as to why the Leavers didn't say anything it doesn't particularly engender much confidence in their trustworthiness or competence.

    I also don't believe that a UK government which hasn't negotiated a successful trade deal in over 40 years is somehow capable of achieving better trade deals with the likes of the US, China, India, Indonesia and Brazil than the European Union with its experience, knowledge, resources and a far better-negotiating position.

    The EU has the benefit of some of the brightest minds from across Europe, the EU has been designed, engineered even, with one of its primary functions being its ability to improve trading conditions and to create favourable trade deals for all its member states. In this endeavour, it has thousands of employees who are able to scrutinise and pore over the minutiae of every aspect of any potential new deals. The EU is able to represent companies from 28 nations and it has over 500 million consumers to offer new trading partners. Furthermore, the EU has already negotiated over 50 international trade deals on behalf of its members!

    By contrast, the United Kingdom has a very inexperienced Civil Service currently highly dependent upon outside expertise, our serving British politicians haven't negotiated a UK trade deal before, we only represent the companies from one country and can only offer other nations our much fewer 65 million consumers. Also, we are in a situation where we are committed to leaving our trading block and have experienced a complete collapse of international confidence in our economy.

    The Brexiteers in Government suggestion that we are in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals than the European Union could negotiate on our behalf if we were to remain a full member just appears to be predicated on a complete fantasy and bears no relation to the factual accuracy of the UK's current position.

    I don't trust the Government with workers rights, you only have to listen to some of the Brexiteers to get the sense that they just have no understanding of the importance of protecting employee rights and working conditions. Yet these protections aren't mutually exclusive from having a profitable economy. You only have to look at some of the most valuable and best-known companies in the world, Google, Microsoft, Apple etc... to see how actually offering great working conditions and ensuring their employees are happy, protected and have their needs met, is actually increasing productivity and profitability.

    With statistics released from YouGov that over 50% of over 65 year olds would be willing to see a family member lose their job so that they could ensure Brexit, I do worry for the future of our younger generations. I would wish for a future where our children will continue to keep the rights and freedoms they were born with, the equal of any of our European neighbours, protected from sub standard food or toxic chemicals, with real career prospects not limited by national borders, where their hopes and dreams can still be expressed in Berlin, Paris, Rome, Milan, Amsterdam, Vienna or Barcelona should they wish it.

    Right now because of Brexit many aspects of our very way of life are under attack, the government are making a real dog's breakfast of it, nobody really knows what the government even want, the EU has been asking them for months with no clear response and we remain a bitterly divided society.

    The progress made on Brexit thus far appears more akin to slowly sleep walking into a nightmare with no hope of escape.
    Last edited by Ascended; August 3rd, 2017 at 04:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well, from your comments it would appear that, for you, immigration was the key issue in helping to persuade you to vote in favour of the UK leaving the EU, even though you haven't specifically alluded to this fact.
    Not only immigration, but also nationalism. I want our parliament to make our laws. I am also a monarchist. I am not anti foreigner. The tipping point surely came with uncontrolled immigration from eastern Europe. Some locals suddenly found they couldn't apply for jobs because they were English. The roads are choked with foreign lorries delivering supplies to the Polish shops, because they don't like our food, and much of their wages go back home. They claim child benefit here for their kids in Poland and elsewhere, and because of EU rules we can do nothing. We've even had Romanians claiming benefits here then sending it away to fund the building of luxury homes.
    And I feel sorry for the police who have to deal with foreign criminality.

    As for the Brexiteers we do at least have Brexit Bulldog!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcUpAmRWtz8

    To be quite honest I'm not sure if even he knows what he's doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well, from your comments it would appear that, for you, immigration was the key issue in helping to persuade you to vote in favour of the UK leaving the EU, even though you haven't specifically alluded to this fact.
    Not only immigration, but also nationalism. I want our parliament to make our laws. I am also a monarchist. I am not anti foreigner. The tipping point surely came with uncontrolled immigration from eastern Europe. Some locals suddenly found they couldn't apply for jobs because they were English. The roads are choked with foreign lorries delivering supplies to the Polish shops, because they don't like our food, and much of their wages go back home. They claim child benefit here for their kids in Poland and elsewhere, and because of EU rules we can do nothing. We've even had Romanians claiming benefits here then sending it away to fund the building of luxury homes.
    And I feel sorry for the police who have to deal with foreign criminality.

    As for the Brexiteers we do at least have Brexit Bulldog!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcUpAmRWtz8

    To be quite honest I'm not sure if even he knows what he's doing.
    The issues you have raised are all valid concerns, yes increasing congestion impacts us all, exploitation of the system by individuals from the immigrant community exacerbates the problems of integration & the preservation of social cohesion - discriminatory recruitment practices that disadvantage British born applicants create resentment and serve to escalate existing divisions. These problems need to be addressed, however, I don't hold with any suggestion that Brexit is or could be the answer.

    Realistically we need to find practical solutions, preferably for the majority of matters, at a local level, certainly not in a manner that would also induce much more serious international problems as a result (apparently now an all too real consequence of the entire Brexit process).

    The Youtube broadcast was very funny, whilst may differ in perspective I do appreciate your humour.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    These problems need to be addressed, however, I don't hold with any suggestion that Brexit is or could be the answer.
    So what is the answer?

    We live on an island, and like all island dwellers have evolved differently to continentals.
    When the UK joined the Common Market we weren't invaded by French and Italians. As soon as the eastern states joined the EU we were invaded.
    There is no doubt they have taken our jobs and our services. Cameron admitted he could do nothing about immigration.
    Now Cable (of the party who wants to legalise drugs) is saying it was the older people who had nothing to lose who voted Brexit when they had plenty to lose.

    There is no doubt that Britain has been a victim of its own success. It is not Germany. It is a much smaller fragile island.
    I've not heard of too many Brits who gone to live and work in eastern Europe, but about 5 million have come here.
    I don't blame individuals for wanting a better life. I blame the crazy idea of EU expansion and the desire for a federal Europe which few want.
    It's like a game of football, where the Germans always seem to win (with trading advantages) and the English lose on penalties.
    The EU will still want to sell us all sorts of food and technology and trade is in their favour. They should be the ones to pay for access to our market.

    Some more interesting proposals by Brexit Bulldog:
    As we are between a rock and a hard place, let them have Gibraltar as a divorce settlement.
    Stop the free movement of Polish barmaids but allow free access to English football hooligans.
    Do a power share with the Mafia.
    Pull out of the Eurovision Song Contest. We are sporty types and they are fixers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    These problems need to be addressed, however, I don't hold with any suggestion that Brexit is or could be the answer.
    So what is the answer?

    We live on an island, and like all island dwellers have evolved differently to continentals.
    When the UK joined the Common Market we weren't invaded by French and Italians. As soon as the eastern states joined the EU we were invaded.
    There is no doubt they have taken our jobs and our services. Cameron admitted he could do nothing about immigration.
    Now Cable (of the party who wants to legalise drugs) is saying it was the older people who had nothing to lose who voted Brexit when they had plenty to lose.

    There is no doubt that Britain has been a victim of its own success. It is not Germany. It is a much smaller fragile island.
    I've not heard of too many Brits who gone to live and work in eastern Europe, but about 5 million have come here.
    I don't blame individuals for wanting a better life. I blame the crazy idea of EU expansion and the desire for a federal Europe which few want.
    It's like a game of football, where the Germans always seem to win (with trading advantages) and the English lose on penalties.
    The EU will still want to sell us all sorts of food and technology and trade is in their favour. They should be the ones to pay for access to our market.

    Some more interesting proposals by Brexit Bulldog:
    As we are between a rock and a hard place, let them have Gibraltar as a divorce settlement.
    Stop the free movement of Polish barmaids but allow free access to English football hooligans.
    Do a power share with the Mafia.
    Pull out of the Eurovision Song Contest. We are sporty types and they are fixers.
    The answer?

    How about:

    Allowing councils to subside local residents with housing costs would be a positive step in aleviating some of the tensions in areas of high immigration. Likewise with offering subsidies for immigrants to move to more costly areas where their labour is required. Rather than denying immigrants their rights or freedom of movement, this would be a solution that offers positive encouragement for immigration in areas where it is both needed and wanted.

    Redesignating agricultural land for residential usage in the construction of much needed new social housing, making use of thousands of fields currently sitting empty.

    Allowing residents greater participation in decisions over environmental and green energy projects at a local level.

    To answer your points:

    True enough Britain has developed its own culture distinct from our Continental neighbours, however, our cultural similarities are also much closer than to those of any of our new proposed trading partners.
    When the Czech Republic, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Malta, Poland, Slovenia and Slovakia all joined the EU on the 1st of May in 2004 it was the largest expansion phase the Union has seen. It also afforded the citizens of these new member states with previously unfamiliar freedom to seek employment and life in other EU states. At this time, however, Britain was the only State not operating transitional restrictions that would have prevented mass migration, thus instead of movement being spread equally across all 12 (prior - 2004) members, all the movement of people went to the UK.

    Transitional controls over migration have now been relaxed for all EU member states and the Unions constant invest in the economies of poorer members has resulted in income levels starting to rise with the long term effect - a reduction in the current migration away from the newer members.

    There is little evidence to suggest that vacancies filled by immigrants would have automatically have been filled by British born applicants. If anything the evidence suggests the opposite when examining the issue nationally on a basis of pure numbers. With over a million vacancies unfilled balanced against over 1.3 million unemployed UK nationals, one might well conclude that the issue with regard to the labour market has far more to with a necessity for applicants to possess the correct skills and abilities rather than a specific or foreign nationality.

    Misconception - Immigrants deprive our public services of resources. Reality - Immigrants pay taxes helping to fund our public services just like anybody else. Capacity issues are the result of government underfunding.

    The referendum threw up a generational divide between younger and older voters, whilst younger voters were accessing information directly from educational sources - overwhelmingly factually based, older voters were being more heavily influenced by Leave Campaigners appealing directly to their feelings. Leave used mixed messages to appeal to disparate groups, the result being many had a false idea what was really at stake and didn't understand the true consequences of a vote to leave the EU, Vote Leave failed to inform them of any of negatives.

    Being successful and increasing living standards for the population isn't the cause of our problems of overcrowding or congestion. Whilst we aren't Germany, I've visited, even lived in, German cities facing their own challenges from population expansion. Population issues here in Britain today are rooted in the failure of policy at a governmental level. The percentage of land designated for agricultural use is far too high, currently hovering around 70% of the entire land mass. Equally when the government pulled out of the housing sector the number of new homes being built, especially social housing, plummeted. Private developers prefer to build in or near to popular existing towns and cities to boost property values and make use of their services, which leads to added congestion.

    British nationals now reside in every member state of the EU. Although more Polish live in the UK than British living in Poland, it's also the case that more British live in Spain than vice versa, the EU is spending heavily, especially Germany, in raising living standards and incomes for Eastern European members so that their citizens will be equals, but also making the European Single Market stronger and more financially robust in the process.

    Expansion and harmonisation of standards towards creating a level playing field of equals are the core rationale behind the European Single Market, it defines why it works so well in promoting growth and prosperity for its members. Expansion by itself would prove problematic, but combined with genuine support and investment in new member states and the willingness of those states to play by the same rules means a bigger, more profitable market place and ultimately, greater freedoms and increased wages & living standards for all EU citizens.

    The EU has been engineered to provide trading benefits to all its members, what we have to remember is that not all members have their economies set up in the same way. In practice, this means that not all benefits may appear equal, whilst Germany benefits strongly from trade benefits, especially in helping to restrict the currency values, the UK benefits by being able to exploit its Single Market access to export financial services around the globe to non-EU countries. The EU is thus enhancing the strengths of each of its members, thus maximising the benefits for each.

    UK (65 million consumers) - EU 27 (440 million consumers), International trade is often dictated by market size, in this case giving the EU a substantial advantage over the UK. Also, the EU remain able to continue trading internally and externally via their existing 50 international agreements, whilst the UK may well discover it is entirely excluded from these trade deals and has to start from scratch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    As one who voted for Brexit, my issues weren't trade, security and defence.
    Is this understood by the negotiators, or are they just interpreting what the voters want?
    No, nor should it be. You voted for Brexit. If you wanted it for purely xenophobic reasons, too bad, so sad. You will get what you voted for - and it will likely not be pretty. Trade, security and defense will all suffer. If that leads to #bregret, you have no to blame but yourself.

    We are seeing this in the US with all the people who voted for Trump, only to find they have elected an incompetent criminal. "But we thought he would get better! We didn't actually want an incompetent, ethically challenged president!" #Tregret.

    To misquote a famous saying - "be careful what you vote for - you might get it."
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    As one who voted for Brexit, my issues weren't trade, security and defence.
    Is this understood by the negotiators, or are they just interpreting what the voters want?
    No, nor should it be. You voted for Brexit. If you wanted it for purely xenophobic reasons, too bad, so sad. You will get what you voted for - and it will likely not be pretty. Trade, security and defense will all suffer. If that leads to #bregret, you have no to blame but yourself.

    We are seeing this in the US with all the people who voted for Trump, only to find they have elected an incompetent criminal. "But we thought he would get better! We didn't actually want an incompetent, ethically challenged president!" #Tregret.

    To misquote a famous saying - "be careful what you vote for - you might get it."

    Without wishing to draw any accusations of nationalism or favouritism, ox hasn't suggested anything that should be considered xenophobic. Immigration is a legitimate concern and raising it doesn't make someone a xenophobe.
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    I am only xenophobic in the British humour way where foreigners begin at Calais!
    I don't see what Trump has to do with it. We already have a sea wall.
    Ascended raises the point about housing, and true, there are areas where the young cannot afford to buy their own homes.
    In London the white British population now stands at only 42%. There are plenty of new homes being built along the Thames, but who is buying them? Foreigners, as an investment. Londoners are getting out to other towns and cities which have more affordable housing.
    There is a green belt system to prevent councils from building on agricultural sites. This is now under huge pressure.
    In addition, wages have not risen in real terms for years. Why employ a British person when you can get the job done by a foreigner?

    I think you are all too pessimistic.
    Don't worry, post Brexit Britain will be a land of golden dawns, blue skies and magic money trees. How Johnny Foreigner would like to get his hands on one!
    Don't forget we have David Davies, the master negotiator "Brexit Bulldog" batting for Britain.
    This man could be a legend.

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    My question is when does the pound reach parity with the dollar and who will pick up the inflation tab when that happens?
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Without wishing to draw any accusations of nationalism or favouritism, ox hasn't suggested anything that should be considered xenophobic. Immigration is a legitimate concern and raising it doesn't make someone a xenophobe.
    That's why I said "if you wanted it for purely xenophobic reasons." Xenophobia is an intense dislike of people from other countries. Much of the support for Brexit came from such sentiments, and indeed after its passage incidence of hate crimes against immigrants rose sharply, according to data collected by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance - - strong evidence that xenophobia was a big part of Brexit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    That's why I said "if you wanted it for purely xenophobic reasons." Xenophobia is an intense dislike of people from other countries. Much of the support for Brexit came from such sentiments, and indeed after its passage incidence of hate crimes against immigrants rose sharply, according to data collected by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance - - strong evidence that xenophobia was a big part of Brexit.
    This is a distortion. Britain is a tolerant country. There was a spike soon after the vote but this was not unexpected and the statisticians were looking for it.
    There is a very small neo Nazi element in Britain and it gave them a temporary excuse. I have not personally seen any hatred to people born outside the UK.
    You could argue there is an anti Muslim sentiment, yet the worst case was committed by a Ukrainian immigrant to the UK who murdered an elderly Muslim because he hated Muslims.
    My counter argument to this is suppose the surgeon that is about to save your life turns out to be a Muslim, would you decline?

    The town that voted most to leave was Boston in Lincolnshire, a place living at ease with itself near the east coast and very English.
    After 2005 it found itself inundated with eastern Europeans, and the whole place was turned upside down. The citizens were not xenophobic. They just wanted their town back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by river_rat View Post
    My question is when does the pound reach parity with the dollar and who will pick up the inflation tab when that happens?
    Any speculation regarding Sterling achieving parity with the US dollar has to be extremely concerning, this would require the UK economy to have lost a third of its value. The effect of ongoing negotiations between the EU and UK government will have great significance for how the pound performs over the coming months & years - specifically with relation to accessing the European Single Market for UK companies. US & UK interest rates will also play a part, however, a recent dip in inflation means a UK rate rise is less urgent.

    Private companies have felt the worst effects of devaluation and inflation thus far, though now price rises are starting hit consumers. Even the BoE recently announced that consumers have less spending power as a result of the Brexit vote and subsequent currency devaluation. Should the pound continue to fall it will in all likeliness be consumers who will bear the brunt with margins having already been squeezed for businesses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    This is a distortion. Britain is a tolerant country. There was a spike soon after the vote but this was not unexpected and the statisticians were looking for it.
    Agreed. It was not unexpected, because confirmation of such anti-immigrant sentiments led to freer expressions of those anti-immigrant sentiments. We saw the same thing in the US after the election of Trump.
    There is a very small neo Nazi element in Britain and it gave them a temporary excuse. I have not personally seen any hatred to people born outside the UK.
    Nor have I. Nor have I personally seen any negative consequences from immigration, whether legal or illegal. Indeed, the immigrants I know are people I work with day in and day out. They are starting businesses that employ Americans, paying taxes and enabling other people to work. Even the illegal ones.
    You could argue there is an anti Muslim sentiment, yet the worst case was committed by a Ukrainian immigrant to the UK who murdered an elderly Muslim because he hated Muslims.
    I'd say a much more recent killing at the Finsbury Mosque, where a UK citizen murdered one person and injured eight, was worse. The assailant was Darren Osborne, a 47-year-old father of four from Cardiff. He is being charged as a terrorist. He hasn't been in the media much, since the media prefers to gloss over crimes committed by citizens.

    However, to your larger point, yes - much of the xenophobia being exhibited is directed at Muslims.
    My counter argument to this is suppose the surgeon that is about to save your life turns out to be a Muslim, would you decline?
    ?? No.
    After 2005 it found itself inundated with eastern Europeans, and the whole place was turned upside down. The citizens were not xenophobic. They just wanted their town back.
    The population of that area has changed half a dozen times since the time it was first settled; it no doubt will again. It's how the world works.

    And if the people in the town wanted to eject the outsiders because they felt they were "destroying the town" or some such - yes, that's xenophobia. It's happened in the US countless times - to the Irish in NY, to the Chinese who built the railroads, to the blacks who were freed after the Civil War. Even Ben Franklin himself wanted to eject the "palantine boors" (the Dutch and the Germans) because they were outsiders who were destroying the US.

    But today all those people make up the US. The same thing will happen to the UK.
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    David Davis, Brexit Bulldog, batting for Britain, on BBC Breakfast today.

    'Those Bavarians will still want us to buy their BMW's.'
    The words of a true master negotiator.

    'Trade to them is £230 billion while to us it is £290 billion.
    So if £60 billion in their favour why are we expected to cough up £36 billion divorce settlement?
    That magic money tree will need a good shaking.

    'Labour party would say that, wouldn't they.' which he mentioned as a reference to his namesake Mandy Rice Davies (give or take a letter e) who was supposed to have said 'he would say that, wouldn't he', even if she didn't actually remember having said that.
    Well, the Bulldog didn't reckon with me. I went to the same school as Mandy, and there's no way she could have been bright enough to have said that!
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    What I find quite amazing is the way these Brexiteers are seemingly able to ignore reality. Such incredible insight that BMW wish to keep selling us their cars, why he thinks this will be of any great significance, however, is the real question, when you consider they still have another 190+ countries to buy their cars, equally that the UK makes 1.7 million cars a year many of which we are trying to sell into the European Single Market.

    The real issue though is the false impression that such statements are designed to convey, as if somehow it's still a question of the EU versus the UK, the reality now being any intention by the EU acting to prevent Britain profiteering from Brexit has long since been replaced with a desire for mutual preservation. Given how the EU doesn't want an economic basket case on its doorstep and have already been horrified to witness the deteriorating situation in Britain, over 20% wiped off the pound, investment plummeting, economic confidence at historic lows, companies jumping ship and no sign the UK government has any kind of plan or mechanism for even slowing, never mind reversing the damage, it's easy to see why they are beyond concerned, seriously worried even for the future of Britain is perhaps now more accurate. Not that you would ever guess this from the kind of words coming from Davis, Johnson or Fox.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    David Davis, Brexit Bulldog, batting for Britain, on BBC Breakfast today.

    'Those Bavarians will still want us to buy their BMW's.'
    The words of a true master negotiator.

    'Trade to them is £230 billion while to us it is £290 billion.
    So if £60 billion in their favour why are we expected to cough up £36 billion divorce settlement?
    That magic money tree will need a good shaking.

    'Labour party would say that, wouldn't they.' which he mentioned as a reference to his namesake Mandy Rice Davies (give or take a letter e) who was supposed to have said 'he would say that, wouldn't he', even if she didn't actually remember having said that.
    Well, the Bulldog didn't reckon with me. I went to the same school as Mandy, and there's no way she could have been bright enough to have said that!
    I missed this, by Davis. How depressing that Davis is still labouring under the Brexshitters' misconception that the EU negotiators will be driven by pure economics.

    The EU will be driven by the imperative to maintain cohesion within the bloc and the integrity and uniqueness of their club rules. Any economic disadvantages to the EU from Britain's exit will be secondary considerations only. They do not want Britain to suffer as such, but they do want to show that bloc membership has unique advantages. There is, therefore, no way they will agree any settlement that leaves Britain with the advantages of membership but not the costs.

    The government seems not to believe this, even now. They need to wake up quickly. Of the 3 Brexshiteers, only Davis has shown any common sense, and now it seems even he has not understood the EU stance. Pathetic. And dangerous.
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    Brexit Boxer here.

    Get a taste of this you doom and gloom remoaners (and I don't care where the source came from):

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/428022...r-post-brexit/

    40 Smackers a week means another £2K in my pocket. I'll buy a new putter.

    Brexit Boxer over and out.
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    The fact it is in The Sun should have made you a little suspicious. Not exactly the most unbiased source.
    Only economic study showing benefits of Brexit debunked as 'doubly misleading' | The Independent

    Even that pretend newspaper "The Daily Fail" had a front page the other day about the damage that Brexit is doing to the economy. (Not that they care. They will just blame the unemployed, women and foreigners for any problems.)
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    [duplicate post]
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Brexit Boxer here.

    Get a taste of this you doom and gloom remoaners (and I don't care where the source came from):

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/428022...r-post-brexit/

    40 Smackers a week means another £2K in my pocket. I'll buy a new putter.

    Brexit Boxer over and out.
    Very funny. I'm waiting to see how long it takes for the penny to drop that maintaining all the product standards we require will cost us more to do with our own bureaucrats than it costs the EU to do it all once for 27 countries.

    These fools are basing their numbers on free import of chlorinated chicken, electric plugs that can kill you, etc etc etc. The moment you apply standards to the goods you import, the notional advantage vanishes. And the political facts of life are that the UK population expects the government to protect them from shoddy and dangerous goods. Economics does not take place in a vacuum: there are other political realities that constrain what governments can permit.
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    Brexit Boxer back.

    Planning to offer my negotiating skills to the Master Negotiator, the Bulldog himself to see off the bureaucrats and put an end to straight bananas and rhubarb, while keeping our mince-pies, fish and chips and bangers and mash.

    Brexit Boxer out.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Brexit Boxer back.

    Planning to offer my negotiating skills to the Master Negotiator, the Bulldog himself to see off the bureaucrats and put an end to straight bananas and rhubarb, while keeping our mince-pies, fish and chips and bangers and mash.

    Brexit Boxer out.
    Yes the straight bananas and rhubarb were jolly funny, weren't they? Made up by Boris Johnson, as I recall. Unfortunately half the population did not realise that. Durrh.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Planning to offer my negotiating skills to the Master Negotiator, the Bulldog himself to see off the bureaucrats and put an end to straight bananas and rhubarb, while keeping our mince-pies, fish and chips and bangers and mash.

    I guess you couldn't do much worse than the clowns we have currently got. Even though you appear to be largely ignorant of the facts (but that appears to be a qualification for the job).

    Note that, in future, we will still have to abide by nearly all the same EU regulations your lot object to, but will have no say in formulating them.

    As your understanding appears to be based on nothing deeper than propaganda headlines it is probably worth explaining why that is.

    Firstly, pretty much all these regulations "imposed on us by Brussels" (i.e. that we helped create and agreed to) are about product quality and safety standards (food, medicine, electrical goods) as well as ensuring interoperability of electronic systems, making sure there are no roaming charges throughout Europe, etc. If we continue to sell products in Europe, then we will have to continue to stick to those standards and any future ones. But, of course, as we will no longer be part of the EU we will have no chance of influencing them.

    This isn't a problem, of course. It is the way we work with regulations from the USA, China, etc. But the whole "many laws imposed from Europe" is just a lie invented by the Brexit loons.

    Secondly, the government will introduce something called the "great repeal bill". You might think from the name that this will get rid of all EU laws. But all it will do is take all the laws that are part of the EU agreement and make them into UK laws. (Hey, but that's OK because they are British laws.) And then, over time, future governments can go through and get rid of those which they don't like. But, as noted above, more than 90% of them will have to stay (and be updated to keep track of future EU law).

    As for the others, we all know how quick they are to repeal old laws. You know, like it being illegal to attend Parliament in a suit of armour. Or not being allowed to eat mince its on Christmas Day. So basically, all those old EU laws are just going to be left there if no one can be arsed to waste time on them.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Brexit Boxer back.

    Planning to offer my negotiating skills to the Master Negotiator, the Bulldog himself to see off the bureaucrats and put an end to straight bananas and rhubarb, while keeping our mince-pies, fish and chips and bangers and mash.

    Brexit Boxer out.
    Stop trolling......
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Planning to offer my negotiating skills to the Master Negotiator, the Bulldog himself to see off the bureaucrats and put an end to straight bananas and rhubarb, while keeping our mince-pies, fish and chips and bangers and mash.

    I guess you couldn't do much worse than the clowns we have currently got. Even though you appear to be largely ignorant of the facts (but that appears to be a qualification for the job).

    Note that, in future, we will still have to abide by nearly all the same EU regulations your lot object to, but will have no say in formulating them.

    As your understanding appears to be based on nothing deeper than propaganda headlines it is probably worth explaining why that is.

    Firstly, pretty much all these regulations "imposed on us by Brussels" (i.e. that we helped create and agreed to) are about product quality and safety standards (food, medicine, electrical goods) as well as ensuring interoperability of electronic systems, making sure there are no roaming charges throughout Europe, etc. If we continue to sell products in Europe, then we will have to continue to stick to those standards and any future ones. But, of course, as we will no longer be part of the EU we will have no chance of influencing them.

    This isn't a problem, of course. It is the way we work with regulations from the USA, China, etc. But the whole "many laws imposed from Europe" is just a lie invented by the Brexit loons.

    Secondly, the government will introduce something called the "great repeal bill". You might think from the name that this will get rid of all EU laws. But all it will do is take all the laws that are part of the EU agreement and make them into UK laws. (Hey, but that's OK because they are British laws.) And then, over time, future governments can go through and get rid of those which they don't like. But, as noted above, more than 90% of them will have to stay (and be updated to keep track of future EU law).

    As for the others, we all know how quick they are to repeal old laws. You know, like it being illegal to attend Parliament in a suit of armour. Or not being allowed to eat mince its on Christmas Day. So basically, all those old EU laws are just going to be left there if no one can be arsed to waste time on them.
    Precisely. It depresses me to think so many believed in the lies about saving £350m a week. In reality only a 3rd of this was the net contribution, and of that, a great deal went on the activities you mention, viz developing and maintaining the common EU standards that enable the Single Market to function. If we expect continued access to that market, a condition of access will be that we continue to contribute towards this activity, since otherwise we would be free-riding on everyone else. If we opt not to ask for access, then not only can we not sell to the EU without a lot of paperwork but we have to replicate at national level all these standards and monitor compliance with new UK standards for all imports. This is almost bound to be more costly than using the common system the EU provides.

    The only way to avoid this is not to have the standards and allow any old shit to be imported: dangerous domestic appliances, chlorinated chicken and all the rest of it. There is no way this will be politically acceptable in the UK: every other day we get calls for the government to do something to protect citizens from some dodgy product or other. Ageing ideologues like Minford ignore that of course.

    But I don't think Ox is serious. I note the same facetious style that characterises Bozo. These people resort to facetiousness as a way to avoid the problems thrown up every day by the detail of Brexshit.
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  29. #28  
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    Boxer here.

    Landed the job as assistant to the Master Negotiator. I'll ensure that Johnny Foreigner plays fair. No shirt tugging. No spiked vino.

    And they can hand back our 350 mill a week.

    Boxer out.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Boxer here.

    Landed the job as assistant to the Master Negotiator. I'll ensure that Johnny Foreigner plays fair. No shirt tugging. No spiked vino.

    And they can hand back our 350 mill a week.

    Boxer out.
    Quod erat demonstrandum.
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    Either he is drunk or he thinks he is much wittier than he is. Or both.
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    I think ox is trying to deal with his disappointment at the reality how Brexit is actually turning out, in a humorous way. Perhaps we should try and have some understanding of the way leavers are feeling. They won the referendum, no parties or great celebrations, the so called "Brexit Day" passed largely unacknowledged, all the things they were told prior to the referendum have slowly one by one turned out to be BS, they have to live with the consequences - worsening economic situation, rising prices & currency collapse etc.. With the realisation dawning that those jolly old chaps the Brexiteers have not turned out to be quite so trustworthy as they might have hoped, they feel remainers think they're all idiots and to top it all off they are collectively often being held largely responsible for the entire Brexit mess. The reality is they were asked to vote and chose what they thought was the right decision at the time, which let's face it was all any of us could have done.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with calling out the Brexiteers, their lies and stupidity, I just think we've got to be careful to avoid falling into the trap of making leave voters feel that we hold them responsible. It was the shameless charlatans telling people blatant lies deliberately designed to manipulate and mislead the public who are entirely responsible for this Brexit mess.
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    Very well put, Ascended. (It is a shame the Like button is still not working!)
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think ox is trying to deal with his disappointment at the reality how Brexit is actually turning out, in a humorous way. Perhaps we should try and have some understanding of the way leavers are feeling. They won the referendum, no parties or great celebrations, the so called "Brexit Day" passed largely unacknowledged, all the things they were told prior to the referendum have slowly one by one turned out to be BS, they have to live with the consequences - worsening economic situation, rising prices & currency collapse etc.. With the realisation dawning that those jolly old chaps the Brexiteers have not turned out to be quite so trustworthy as they might have hoped, they feel remainers think they're all idiots and to top it all off they are collectively often being held largely responsible for the entire Brexit mess. The reality is they were asked to vote and chose what they thought was the right decision at the time, which let's face it was all any of us could have done.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with calling out the Brexiteers, their lies and stupidity, I just think we've got to be careful to avoid falling into the trap of making leave voters feel that we hold them responsible. It was the shameless charlatans telling people blatant lies deliberately designed to manipulate and mislead the public who are entirely responsible for this Brexit mess.
    Acutely observed. Dacre has a lot to answer for, as do Bozo and Gove. But I'm afraid I do blame people stupid enough to read the Mail and believe it.

    I think the country is fcuked and I am no longer a patriotic Englishman. May telling me and my Anglo-French son that we were "citizens of nowhere" has got right up my nose. I was born in Scotland and if Scotland ever secedes from the union I shall apply for a Scottish passport and tear up my British one.

    This self-inflicted disaster will divide the country for at least a generation and I know what side I am on.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    ...all the things they were told prior to the referendum have slowly one by one turned out to be BS, they have to live with the consequences - worsening economic situation, rising prices & currency collapse etc.
    Brexit Boxer back, battling for Britain.

    Once again the Remoaners give me impression they will only accept a democratic decision if it suits them.
    Just in case they hadn't noticed.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...mployment-rate

    Rising prices? Haven't noticed it much with consumer goods.
    There may now be more of an incentive to buy locally produced, but that's good.

    So what if the currency is a little devalued. It has been lower in recent times.
    Good for exporters. Bad for importers and the tourists who want to spend money abroad rather than in this country and who are oblivious to the wonders to be found in the UK. Off they fly to some sun drenched and parched pseudo paradise.

    Take a look at The Times today. Europe is faced with the biggest mass migration in history from east and south. Terrorists are now virtually free to enter. If we had voted to remain the EU would dictate how many we have to take.

    Over & out.

    PS. As I've said before I do not drink alcohol.
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    This is sounding a lot like how ox acted in the now lost exercise thread. "All exercise is BAAAAD"!!! (OH except any exercise I happen to like, then EVERYONE should do it daily with me.

    Just ignore him, he's an ostrich in the sand at this point
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    This is sounding a lot like how ox acted in the now lost exercise thread. "All exercise is BAAAAD"!!! (OH except any exercise I happen to like, then EVERYONE should do it daily with me.

    Just ignore him, he's an ostrich in the sand at this point
    Yeah, 52% voted to leave. Obviously they were all stupid.
    So what input did you have in the referendum?
    I suspect both you and billvon did not vote because of living in the west of the US, so what exactly is your problem?

    FYI the thread was 'Exercise is bad for you' and not "All exercise is BAAAAD".
    You need to get your facts right.
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    Correction: just over 50% OF THE ABYSMALLY SMALL voter turnout voted for credit. That is NOT the same as the majority of Britain that you are asserting.

    My problem is your lying about the situation.

    And your thread title is moot, the content was exactly as I said
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    ...all the things they were told prior to the referendum have slowly one by one turned out to be BS, they have to live with the consequences - worsening economic situation, rising prices & currency collapse etc.
    Brexit Boxer back, battling for Britain.

    Once again the Remoaners give me impression they will only accept a democratic decision if it suits them.
    Has anyone said that the decision will not be accepted? In fact in the sentence you quote it says we all "have to live with the consequences". So, like so many Brexiters, you seem to be a compulsive liar.


    Just in case they hadn't noticed.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...mployment-rate

    Rising prices? Haven't noticed it much with consumer goods.
    There may now be more of an incentive to buy locally produced, but that's good.
    You do realise that Brexit hasn't actually happened yet, don't you? (Apparently, some people think we have already left the EU.)

    The collapse in the currency is due to people's worries about what the effect will be. They may be wrong but pretty much every economist (on both sides) thinks it will have a negative effect. They also generally agree that it will have no effect on levels of immigration.

    So what if the currency is a little devalued. It has been lower in recent times.
    Note for 9 years since immediately after the financial crisis. So Brexit is seen by some as being as bad for the economy as the biggest financial crash since the Great Depression. Of course, that's good news to some.

    Take a look at The Times today. Europe is faced with the biggest mass migration in history from east and south. Terrorists are now virtually free to enter. If we had voted to remain the EU would dictate how many we have to take.
    You really are stunningly ignorant, aren't you. WE ARE STILL IN THE EU. So if they were going to dictate how many we take, then they would have done it.

    EU countries have the right to restrict immigration from other countries. Our governments have chosen never to exercise those rights because the economy needs foreign workers. Unless you fancy going to pick fruit after you have banned the only people who are willing to do it?

    PS. As I've said before I do not drink alcohol.
    So you have no excuse for this level of idiocy.
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Yeah, 52% voted to leave. Obviously they were all stupid.
    They were misled by the lies. It would be interesting to see how a vote would go now. But of course we will never know because we have to live with the idiotic decision.
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    Rather amazed that immigrants still being blamed for nearly everything, when domestic terrorism is actually responsible for most--such unshakable ignorance.
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    Thank you Strange, any praise coming from you is to be prized indeed.

    Genuinely sorry that you feel that way exchemist, indeed have been made to feel that way, great sympathy for your position, though seriously hope events eventually change this situation in a positive way for you & your family and indeed our whole nation!

    It's my continued hope, ox, that we can somehow reach you, though am beginning to wonder just quite what it will take to convince you and other leave voters to join us in demanding better from our government. Surely very hard to believe you could honestly be entirely happy with our current situation, no matter how hard you want Brexit to succeed.

    Trying to imply that Paleoichneum or billvon shouldn't express an opinion because they live in America, is also in my book a mistake. We live in an interconnected world where the events in one country usually affect other nations as well, certainly the effects of Brexit have been felt around the globe and we haven't even left yet. Though perhaps even beyond this is a simple principle that we are all equals, all here to discuss events where everybody is entitled to their own opinion and is at liberty to freely share it with the rest of us. I have never once had an American suggest to me that I shouldn't have an opinion on US politics because I'm British, surely we owe them the same courtesy and respect, no matter how passionate or seriously we are about a subject or issue.
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    Wish the damn like button was working so I could like your post Ascended. Very well said and I totally agree that we should all be allowed to express our opinions. I've met British citizens with better grasps of US Politics than half the people in my county after all. Also as you said, Brexit will have effects that will be felt around the world. We are very much an interconnected world, the politics of any country has the potential to be felt on opposites sides of the globe.
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Yeah, 52% voted to leave. Obviously they were all stupid.
    Not at all. A few points here:

    - 52% of the people who turned out to vote voted for Brexit. However 26% of all the people in the UK voted for Brexit, since not everyone is eligible to vote - and not everyone who is eligible voted.

    - A large number of those 26% of people were not stupid, in that they did not make a poor choice based on solid information. Many of them felt lied to, and later stated they would change their vote if they had known the truth. Example - Khembe Gibbons: "We've left the EU, David Cameron's resigned, we're left with Boris, and Nigel has just basically given away that the NHS claim was a lie. I personally voted leave believing these lies, and I regret it more than anything, I feel genuinely robbed of my vote." You can perhaps call them gullible, but not "stupid."

    - A large number of the remaining voters have since changed their minds; today polls are running 54% stay. People who learn from mistakes are generally not "stupid." Example - Mandy Suth: “I would go back to the polling station and vote to stay, simply because this morning the reality is kicking in. I wish we had the opportunity to vote again . . .I was very disappointed”.

    - Many of the remaining voters simply made a decision that turned out to be not as good as they thought it would be. They took a risk; it didn't work out the way they hoped it would. That's not necessarily "stupid."

    Were there some of those Brexit voters who were just stupid, in that they did not have the intellectual capacity to understand what they were voting for? That's certain. (Just as some people who voted to stay were stupid.) But they were a small majority, not even close to "all."
    So what input did you have in the referendum?
    ?? The same input most people here had; simply an opinion.
    I suspect both you and billvon did not vote because of living in the west of the US, so what exactly is your problem?
    You have expressed opinions on issues outside of the UK, so I imagine it is similar to whatever problem you have.
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  45. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    PS. As I've said before I do not drink alcohol.
    So you have no excuse for this level of idiocy.
    These comments are totally unacceptable.
    You are suggesting I post under the influence of alcohol when I have revulsion for the substance.
    I have seen it destroy too many lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It's my continued hope, ox, that we can somehow reach you...
    You'd make a good evangelist!
    Alas, I am a confirmed atheist. That includes the EU.

    I am now getting the impression that you and others think that as the turnout was not 100% the result shouldn't stand.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org....nt-information

    72%
    When is the turnout ever 100% in a liberal democracy?
    Remember it was Cameron who authorised the referendum. He asked the people to vote and most did. Those who did not vote and wanted to remain only have themselves to blame. You should not be blaming people like me. I don't mind admitting that I voted leave because of immigration first and then laws. That was my choice and if you disagree you are free to do so.
    Here is an example of people just coming for a better life. There doesn't seem to be much wrong with them, either.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rVSwXloXoM

    Next time I read a headline in my local press which says 'Another 10,000 asylum seekers for Brum (Birmingham) I'll begin to understand where they might have come from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    PS. As I've said before I do not drink alcohol.
    So you have no excuse for this level of idiocy.
    These comments are totally unacceptable.
    You are suggesting I post under the influence of alcohol when I have revulsion for the substance.
    I have seen it destroy too many lives.
    On the contrary, he is accepting your statement that you do not drink.
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It's my continued hope, ox, that we can somehow reach you...
    You'd make a good evangelist!
    Alas, I am a confirmed atheist. That includes the EU.

    I am now getting the impression that you and others think that as the turnout was not 100% the result shouldn't stand.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org....nt-information

    72%
    When is the turnout ever 100% in a liberal democracy?
    Remember it was Cameron who authorised the referendum. He asked the people to vote and most did. Those who did not vote and wanted to remain only have themselves to blame. You should not be blaming people like me. I don't mind admitting that I voted leave because of immigration first and then laws. That was my choice and if you disagree you are free to do so.
    Here is an example of people just coming for a better life. There doesn't seem to be much wrong with them, either.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rVSwXloXoM

    Next time I read a headline in my local press which says 'Another 10,000 asylum seekers for Brum (Birmingham) I'll begin to understand where they might have come from.
    You seem to have fallen for the Daily Mail line that the 52/48 vote in favour of leaving means that those who think it is a wrong policy should now keep quiet about it for evermore. That is not how politics works. In politics you continue to argue your case, when you feel strongly about it, in the hope of influencing future policy.

    This issue will not go away. There is far too much at stake. And, as the older people die off, the case for rejoining will get stronger over time. In fact, since we have not yet left the EU there is still a political chance, however remote, that the decision can be reversed.

    In fact, as the deadline grows closer, the huge difficulties of leaving become ever more apparent, and the disagreement within the Tory party about what to do once we are out continues, we could end up with a government that simply says "We can't do it!".

    My own suspicion is that younger voters were caught napping (literally in many cases) by the referendum and, if there were to be a rerun, now that we can begin to see the problems, the vote would be to stay in the EU.

    Even presuming we do leave, there will be a continuing issue, for decades, over the future relationship with the EU.

    This referendum has settled nothing. All it has done is saddle the country with an almost impossible regulatory and negotiating task, which will consume government energy at the expense of the domestic policies that we all need them to be working on.

    It is probably the biggest fuckup since the Hundred Years War.
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    I think it was Strange who made this comment before about me being an alcoholic.
    No way is this acceptable.

    It is probably the biggest fuckup since the Hundred Years War.
    Not a particularly good comment.
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    Not a particularly good comment.
    As opposed to the "gems" in your posts... Stop being a tit...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I think it was Strange who made this comment before about me being an alcoholic.
    No way is this acceptable.

    It is probably the biggest fuckup since the Hundred Years War.
    Not a particularly good comment.
    Yet you refuse to understand the points that are being made.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Also. Why exactly do you feel the majority of Britain does not get to point out how bad a decision it was simply because they could not/didn't vote at the time?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  53. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I am now getting the impression that you and others think that as the turnout was not 100% the result shouldn't stand.
    No one has said that. They are just pointing out your errors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I think it was Strange who made this comment before about me being an alcoholic.
    Nope. I never said any such thing (it is pretty offensive to put such words in my mouth.)

    But perhaps this reading comprehension problem is the reason you have fallen for the lies from the Daily Mail and other newspapers.

    ("Other newspapers"? That implies the Daily Mail counts as a newspaper, rather than an anthology of hate-filled fiction.)
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    I am now getting the impression that you and others think that as the turnout was not 100% the result shouldn't stand.
    Not at all. I was responding to your saying (sarcastically) "Obviously they [Brexit voters] were all stupid."
    Remember it was Cameron who authorised the referendum. He asked the people to vote and most did. Those who did not vote and wanted to remain only have themselves to blame. You should not be blaming people like me.
    Don't blame the people who voted for it? Blame the people who didn't vote for it, instead?

    Take responsibility for your actions. You voted for it; you share in the blame for the results of its implementation.
    I don't mind admitting that I voted leave because of immigration first and then laws. That was my choice and if you disagree you are free to do so.
    That's fine. Just don't try to blame others for what you did.
    Here is an example of people just coming for a better life. There doesn't seem to be much wrong with them, either.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rVSwXloXoM
    And here is an example of an ordinary UK citizen (and Brexit supporter) discussing his political views on Muslims. Why are people getting so bent out of shape?
    http://Finsbury Park mosque attack: ...he Independent
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  56. #55  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I don't mind admitting that I voted leave because of immigration first and then laws. That was my choice and if you disagree you are free to do so.
    Here is an example of people just coming for a better life. There doesn't seem to be much wrong with them, either.
    So, those appear to be African migrants. Leaving the EU will only stop the free movement of EU workers so I'm not sure how you think it will magically solve that problem. (There is a possibility it will make things worse by reducing cooperation between UK and France.)

    The vast majority of immigrants come here to work. The economy will suffer by reducing the number of workers.

    And laws: what laws? Could you be specific? Or have you fallen for the UKIP/Daily Mail's lies that there are just too many (like migrants)?
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  57. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I think it was Strange who made this comment before about me being an alcoholic.
    Nope. I never said any such thing (it is pretty offensive to put such words in my mouth.)

    But perhaps this reading comprehension problem is the reason you have fallen for the lies from the Daily Mail and other newspapers.

    ("Other newspapers"? That implies the Daily Mail counts as a newspaper, rather than an anthology of hate-filled fiction.)
    As certain as I can be that you accused me of alcoholism in probably a now lost thread. I can't emphasize enough how offensive I find these comments.

    As for the lying Daily Mail I will assume you don't read the Metro which is owned by the Mail group, but I see plenty of people reading it on the train.

    Soon the EU will make its annual decamp to Strasbourg in what is the probably the biggest waste of time and money since the EU began.

    The farce of the EU travelling circus - Telegraph

    Is the EU the thickest layer of bureaucracy in history?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Is the EU the thickest layer of bureaucracy in history?
    Not even close, but you might be the thickest poster we've seen for a while...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    As certain as I can be that you accused me of alcoholism in probably a now lost thread. I can't emphasize enough how offensive I find these comments.
    I find your claims that I said such a thing pretty offensive.

    I find your views on Brexit pretty offensive. And your attitude to it even more so.

    As for the lying Daily Mail I will assume you don't read the Metro which is owned by the Mail group, but I see plenty of people reading it on the train.
    Not sure what your point is here? That lots of people read a popular tabloid, and so ... uhm ... the Daily Mail doesn't lie?

    Not quite following the logic of that argument. (But no I don't read the Metro, I have seen occasional copies when travelling through London but it seemed fairly content free. So maybe it is like the Mail with the lies taken out. Doesn't leave much.)
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  60. #59  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I think it was Strange who made this comment before about me being an alcoholic.
    Nope. I never said any such thing (it is pretty offensive to put such words in my mouth.)

    But perhaps this reading comprehension problem is the reason you have fallen for the lies from the Daily Mail and other newspapers.

    ("Other newspapers"? That implies the Daily Mail counts as a newspaper, rather than an anthology of hate-filled fiction.)
    As certain as I can be that you accused me of alcoholism in probably a now lost thread. I can't emphasize enough how offensive I find these comments.

    As for the lying Daily Mail I will assume you don't read the Metro which is owned by the Mail group, but I see plenty of people reading it on the train.

    Soon the EU will make its annual decamp to Strasbourg in what is the probably the biggest waste of time and money since the EU began.

    The farce of the EU travelling circus - Telegraph

    Is the EU the thickest layer of bureaucracy in history?
    Not nearly as thick, or as expensive for Britain, as the rafts of bureaucrats we are going to have to take on to replicate all the agreements, rules and standards that the EU takes care of for us today. But the Daily Mail would have been too stupid to realise this, I appreciate.

    I have kept a piece of analysis from the Financial Times on 31st May this year, in which they calculate the UK will lose 750 international arrangements when we exit the EU. There will be 295 on trade(bilateral and multilateral), 202 on regulatory cooperation, 69 on fisheries, 65 on transport, mainly to do with airlines, 49 on customs controls on goods transport, 45 on nuclear cooperation (fuel, parts, know-how) and 34 on agriculture.

    Negotiations to replace or reinstate these will have to take place with more than 160 countries.

    Are we going to do this with the existing civil service manpower, do you think? And of course, when it comes to standards for trading goods and services, the standards the UK will have to comply with in order to export will be the standards recognised internationally already, for example, those set by the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, India.......and the EU.

    But the Daily Mail would just brush all this aside. After all, what does Paul Dacre know about international trade?

    Furthermore, all the replacement deals we do will have to contain provisions for arbitration in case of disagreements. Do we imagine all these 160 countries will be content to let the arbitration be done by UK courts? Or will they instead demand arbitration in systems they recognise? Like the European Court of Justice, say.

    Taking back control, eh? Brilliant.
    Last edited by exchemist; August 25th, 2017 at 11:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    But the Daily Mail would have been too stupid to realise this, I appreciate.
    Or, more likely, dishonest. And relied on the stupidity of their readers not to question anything.
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  62. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Is the EU the thickest layer of bureaucracy in history?
    Not even close, but you might be the thickest poster we've seen for a while...
    You remind me of a woman I used to work with. Career progression after school was Oxford then even more exams. It was a long time before she effectively left school and she used words like tit and fuckwit while having no social skills. Sad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    You remind me of a woman I used to work with. Career progression after school was Oxford then even more exams. It was a long time before she effectively left school and she used words like tit and fuckwit while having no social skills. Sad.
    But at least she was educated ...
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  64. #63  
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    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-eu-countries/

    What has the EU done for workers in Greece, Spain, Italy?
    The only reason they remain are the subsidies their countries are getting. Can't go on forever.
    You need to expand the chart to find the UK very near the bottom. Unemployment now at 4.4%

    While they are able, the remoaners could always move to Greece or Spain. Nice sunny climate but I doubt if they will find work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-eu-countries/

    What has the EU done for workers in Greece, Spain, Italy?
    The only reason they remain are the subsidies their countries are getting. Can't go on forever.
    You need to expand the chart to find the UK very near the bottom. Unemployment now at 4.4%
    So your point is that being in the EU along with "massive" immigration from other parts of Europe has not caused an unemployment crisis in the UK. That's good surely.

    Glad to see you are beginning to think for yourself instead of just swallowing the Daily Mail's lies.
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  66. #65  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    You remind me of a woman I used to work with. Career progression after school was Oxford then even more exams. It was a long time before she effectively left school and she used words like tit and fuckwit while having no social skills. Sad.
    But at least she was educated ...
    She was also fat and in my opinion, quite ugly.
    She proved to me that education is not everything.
    They obviously hadn't taught her social skills at Oxford.

    I had severe health problems when young and had to miss over a year of schooling. My friend in those days was fine and went on to Oxford after memorising the entire Latin textbook. It was very sad to learn he had drowned in the Oxford Canal aged 20.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Glad to see you are beginning to think for yourself instead of just swallowing the Daily Mail's lies.
    Know something? I've never read the Daily Hate. I don't read any newspapers unless I find them lying around on the train.
    So yes, I do think for myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Know something? I've never read the Daily Hate.
    Shame. Because you sound exactly like their target audience:
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    She was also fat and in my opinion, quite ugly.
    Maybe you could get a job with them. You have the attitudes down pat.

    But, to try and stay on topic: what's the point of the link you posted? Other than undermining your argument?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    But, to try and stay on topic: what's the point of the link you posted? Other than undermining your argument?
    I'll assume you mean the link on unemployment.
    Average EU unemployment is over twice that of UK.
    So why do the Med countries not do too well?
    While the northern Europeans are working in factories the Med locals are sunning themselves on beaches and then drinking late into the night even up to 4am.
    Their nightshift is somewhat different. No wonder the Brits and Germans love going to these places, but it is a phoney world and we are the ones who have to subsidise them.
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    she used words like tit and fuckwit
    Let me guess, it was every time she spoke to you. That's one benefit of an Oxford education, you can spot bullshitters, fuckwits and pseud very quickly.

    Sad
    What is sadder is your deliberate obtuseness and borderline trolling in this thread...

    while having no social skills
    Quite an assumption, you don't know me socially but what do you expect from someone who believes whatever they read in the tabloids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-eu-countries/

    What has the EU done for workers in Greece, Spain, Italy?
    The only reason they remain are the subsidies their countries are getting. Can't go on forever.
    You need to expand the chart to find the UK very near the bottom. Unemployment now at 4.4%

    While they are able, the remoaners could always move to Greece or Spain. Nice sunny climate but I doubt if they will find work.
    If you live in the UK, it would be more relevant if Brexshitters were to focus on what the UK gets from the EU and how we are going to replace it. You know, a bit like the "What have the Romans ever done for us?" scene, in "Life of Brian".
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    I'm not sure if you guys listen to LBC, but for those of you that don't just a little taste of James O'brien showing us what the remainers are up against when it comes to Brexit.




    Here's my take on a few of the changes the UK is experiencing since the EU referendum decision to leave the Union.


    1.) Huge deterioration in diplomatic relations with our EU member neighbours and Allies.
    2.) Complete loss of any international influence at a European level.
    3.) The massive upturn in openly displayed xenophobic attitudes both within the public at large and even from within government.
    4.) Insecurity, uncertainty and in some cases fear for their future of UK citizens living in EU countries, EU nationals living in the UK and for both UK and EU businesses.
    5.) Chaos within the UK civil service as departments across the country has key members of staff reassigned to research International law & trade, also entire departments given Brexit related assignments prioritised at the expensive of all other pressing matters.
    6.) Millions spent by the government employing outside expertise to consult and advise them on Brexit.
    7.) Thousands of new civil servants recruited to help collate national reports on every aspect of the UK to plan for the Brexit aftermath.
    8.) British & International companies spending millions making post Brexit contingency plans, many pre-empting Brexit and already either wholly or partially relocating back within the EU27, including already 4 of the UK 12 major investment banks.
    9.) The UK relinquishing control of the European medicines agency - millions of Brits now faced with severe delays on access to drugs and the potential cost rises to private buyers and the NHS.
    10.) The UK faces the task of setting up potentially 40 new regulatory agencies from scratch, with all the associated snags, problems and issues, in order to replicate the work of EU agencies currently conducted on behalf of all EU member states.
    11.) Withdrawal from the EU budget will mean UK farmers, the poorest British communities and UK science all losing huge EU subsidies causing massive problems with the onus on the government to solve.
    12.) Leaving the European Single Market will result in the status of the UK as an attractive trading partner being greatly diminished. Hitting the UK economy hard across all major sectors especially financial services which now account for over a quarter of all UK exports.
    13.) Price rises have made the cost of living in the UK start to rise, this is particularly affecting the working class and small businesses already struggling with tight margins.
    14.) Currency devaluation has made the cost of large purchases considerably more expensive, new car buyers and holiday makers particularly badly affected to the tune of several thousand pounds in some cases.
    15.) International confidence as reflected by both investment levels and the currency exchange value is indicating a collapse not seen since the height of the financial crisis when the UK experience a run on banks and came close to missing its borrowing repayments. In fact, the indications are that international confidence in the UK economy has dropped even below this period.
    16.) Brexidus, this is, as it has been dubbed, the departure of EU citizens from the UK, over 122,000 so far. Virtually all those EU citizens who have so far left the EU were skilled workers, with many formerly employed within the NHS.
    17.) NHS is facing a recruitment crisis, with NHS wages considerably lower than private health sector wages, the NHS has long been dependent upon foreign staff. Without them coming to Britain and accepting lower wages the NHS wouldn't function and certainly wouldn't be affordable, meaning that everybody, especially the older generations would be responsible for getting private health insurance.
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    10.) The UK faces the task of setting up potentially 40 new regulatory agencies from scratch, with all the associated snags, problems and issues, in order to replicate the work of EU agencies currently conducted on behalf of all EU member states.
    This is the sort of thing that drives me crazy. So many right-wing MPs (and assorted loonies such as forage) just say, "oh, it'll be fine, everything will just carry on as it was before."

    How can these people not have any idea of the complexity of updating laws, changing border and customs controls, new regulatory bodies for drugs, electronics, food safety, agriculture, finance, and on and on ... (Incidentally, much of the European finance regulation is driven by the UK at the moment. Standards in Europe may well slip in future without our input. Which will have a negative effect here as well.)

    There was some moron on the radio this afternoon saying that any attempt to discuss the legal complexities of the interaction of the ECJ and English courts was "attempting to derail democracy". That is just insane. We can't ignore the ECJ. We need to work out how to work with it.

    And don't get me started on the Irish border. There are all sorts of glib "it'll be fine" statements. Whereas in reality it is an incredibly complex problem and, at worst, could lead to a resumption of terrorism.
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  74. #73  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    10.) The UK faces the task of setting up potentially 40 new regulatory agencies from scratch, with all the associated snags, problems and issues, in order to replicate the work of EU agencies currently conducted on behalf of all EU member states.
    This is the sort of thing that drives me crazy. So many right-wing MPs (and assorted loonies such as forage) just say, "oh, it'll be fine, everything will just carry on as it was before."

    How can these people not have any idea of the complexity of updating laws, changing border and customs controls, new regulatory bodies for drugs, electronics, food safety, agriculture, finance, and on and on ... (Incidentally, much of the European finance regulation is driven by the UK at the moment. Standards in Europe may well slip in future without our input. Which will have a negative effect here as well.)

    There was some moron on the radio this afternoon saying that any attempt to discuss the legal complexities of the interaction of the ECJ and English courts was "attempting to derail democracy". That is just insane. We can't ignore the ECJ. We need to work out how to work with it.

    And don't get me started on the Irish border. There are all sorts of glib "it'll be fine" statements. Whereas in reality it is an incredibly complex problem and, at worst, could lead to a resumption of terrorism.
    Aha, but we've had enough of experts, you see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Aha, but we've had enough of experts, you see.
    I guess you are right. In a post-truth world of alternative facts, what use is an expert?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Let me guess, it was every time she spoke to you. That's one benefit of an Oxford education, you can spot bullshitters, fuckwits and pseud very quickly.
    And when I knew her with her degree in Quantum Physics she was just an ordinary accounts clerk.
    Proof that intellect does not translate into success, and she was set up time and again by the fuckwits.
    So much for the benefit of an Oxford education.
    I understand you are a chemistry teacher. Well, if you don't make it into research I suppose that's some sort of option.
    Where does Oxford rate as a science university? Below Cambridge, Manchester and Bristol to name just three.

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com...rst-says-study
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    stop being bitter about things you envy..... (eg her taking the time to get an education in something she loved)
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Here's my take on a few of the changes the UK is experiencing since the EU referendum decision to leave the Union.
    Here's my take.
    You have to accept the democratic decision. Not accepting it would be even more disastrous.
    Don't blame the people who voted for Brexit. Blame the politicians for calling the referendum. Cameron failed to get the right agreements with the EU which could have yielded a remain vote.
    Don't see any massive upturn of xenophobic attitudes other than the usual banter. Please list examples.
    Where do the Labour party stand? They are vague. They are a 'Don't Know' party.
    I don't believe thousands of new civil servants will by needed. Better software will be a priority.
    Most jobs will be replaced by robots in 10 years. The banking and accountancy professions will disappear. Teachers will be gone. The medical professional could also disappear. Even nursing staff could be robots.
    Britain free of the EU will be better placed to cope with the new technology.
    Last edited by ox; August 27th, 2017 at 12:50 PM.
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    Ox, you are now obviously trolling, to quote an old professor of mine
    Oh do fuck off, there's a good chap...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Don't blame the people who voted for Brexit.
    Nope. Sorry, its your fault.And why try and avoid the responsibility for your decision if you think it is such a good thing? Hypocrite.

    Don't see any massive upturn of xenophobic attitudes other than the usual banter. Please list examples.
    There have been plenty of reports of this, including police statistics, in the newspapers you don't read. If you weren't so proud of your lack of education and wilful ignorance you might be more aware of the world around you.

    The latest example is the massive number of EU citizens abandoning the UK and the fall in numbers coming here. Which, as already noted, is going to cause problems for the NHS, manufacturing and agriculture.

    I don't believe thousands of new civil servants will by needed.
    Based on what? Tory politician's lies that it is completely simple: how do you leave the EU, you just live the EU. Cretins.

    Better software will be a priority.
    Apart from the fact no one has defined what that software will do, the government does not have a great track record for IT systems.

    The banking and accountancy professions will disappear. Teachers will be gone. The medical professional could also disappear. Even nursing staff could be robots.
    What fuckwit told you that?

    Britain free of the EU will be better placed to cope with the new technology.
    Most of that technology is being developed by Europe-wide consortiums. We will be on the B team, no longer being the prime contributors (and exploiters) of new technology. (I speak with some experience, having worked on and managed such projects in the past.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Here's my take on a few of the changes the UK is experiencing since the EU referendum decision to leave the Union.
    Here's my take.
    You have to accept the democratic decision. Not accepting it would be even more disastrous.
    Don't blame the people who voted for Brexit. Blame the politicians for calling the referendum. Cameron failed to get the right agreements with the EU which could have yielded a remain vote.
    Don't see any massive upturn of xenophobic attitudes other than the usual banter. Please list examples.
    Where do the Labour party stand? They are vague. They are a 'Don't Know' party.
    I don't believe thousands of new civil servants will by needed. Better software will be a priority.
    Most jobs will be replaced by robots in 10 years. The banking and accountancy professions will disappear. Teachers will be gone. The medical professional could also disappear. Even nursing staff could be robots.
    Britain free of the EU will be better placed to cope with the new technology.
    Actually, credit where it's due you've made some valid points and it's perhaps only correct to respond in a little more detail.

    You have to accept the democratic decision. Not accepting it would be even more disastrous.
    Whilst I don't necessarily agree that not accepting the referendum result would be disastrous, we do live in a democracy and disrespecting the votes of 17.2 million people isn't acceptable, otherwise what was the referendum for. So yes the people were consulted and indeed voted by a majority, however small to leave the European Union. So yes we should proceed on that basis in accordance with the referendum result. We should also, however, be mindful that all the things we were told during the referendum campaign must be upheld, if not then the basis of the vote is undermined and the public have both a right and necessity to re-examine the question in the light of genuine factual information, given that such is the importance of the question for not just today but many future generations to come. Also in the spirit of democracy I don't believe it is unreasonable to go back to the people and ask them again when we have concluded the negotiations for the EU exit deal and we finally have some clarity over just what exactly Brexit will really mean for both our ongoing relations with the EU and indeed our rights and freedoms as European citizens. Any suggestion that the public shouldn't be allowed to re-visit the referendum question in the light of new evidence and facts is surely both risking the future of our nation on the basis of outdated and inaccurate information and is undemocratic.

    We cannot expect that the fate of our people for generations to come, should have to be decided solely on the basis of one referendum which took place at a time before any of the consequences or options were known, was decided on the smallest of margins and was conducted using information of which a significant proportion has since proved unreliable, misleading, incomplete, false, has changed over time or was just completely wrong. Democracy is an ongoing process that requires we the people to be given the option to change our minds.

    Now you may suggest, with some quite justification I might add, that if the referendum result had gone the other way, that I wouldn't still be advocating for the public to once again be consulted. What I would say is that if this was indeed the case then the leavers would also still be pushing for another referendum, because that how democracy works - it doesn't just end or stop with one decision. I would also say that it doesn't change the situation with regard to making sensible informed decisions when it comes to an issue that will affect generations to come, again I say the public must be given the option to decide on the most accurate and up to date information, where they are able to choose from all available options.

    Don't blame the people who voted for Brexit. Blame the politicians for calling the referendum. Cameron failed to get the right agreements with the EU which could have yielded a remain vote.
    Here I agree with you and I don't blame people who voted for Brexit, as I've previously acknowledged, people were asked to vote in the referendum and chose the option they thought was right at the time on the information either available or being presented to them. If people now look around and aren't willing to admit to themselves we aren't now in a good situation, then I do perhaps feel a little justified in believing they are choosing to be willfully ignorant, they are prioritising their pride over the decision they chose during the referendum ahead of the fate of our country and future of generations to come. Though also, however, feel a little sorry for them because when they finally do realise what is happening to our country these are the people who will feel the most betrayed, having blamed remainers or indeed anybody but the Brexiteers that made them all the false promises and by then it may well be too late to change.

    Don't see any massive upturn of xenophobic attitudes other than the usual banter. Please list examples.
    Recorded hate crimes jumped by nearly a third with the number of reported hate crimes for the July to September quarter rising from 10,793 in 2015 to 14,295 for the same period last year.

    Within 5 days of the referendum result the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein), said that "I urge the UK authorities to act to stop these xenophobic attacks and to ensure that all those suspected of racist and anti-foreigner attacks and abuses are prosecuted"

    A report by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance says "considerable intolerant political discourse focusing on immigration and contributing to an increase in xenophobic sentiment"

    Home Office figures show nearly 5,500 racially or religiously motivated offences were reported to police in the month after the vote.
    Polish media in UK shocked by post-Brexit hate crimes - BBC News
    Brexit: Hate crimes up fivefold in week after UK vote - CNN
    'Go back home' - Bitter backlash post EU referendum - BBC News
    Post EU Referendum Racism Documented Online And It's Really Scary | HuffPost UK
    Hate crimes rise by up to 100 per cent across England and Wales, figures reveal | The Independent
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eign-academics
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.38361fe26996
    https://politicsmeanspolitics.com/xe...y-6ff432e15e7b
    https://www.ft.com/content/6555b1f4-...5-f79f5696c731

    Where do the Labour party stand? They are vague. They are a 'Don't Know' party.
    Any vagueness regarding where Labour stands is a direct result of not having all the facts available with which to make definitive policies.
    What I can tell you is that the official position, as set out by Kier Starmer (Knight Commander, Queens Council & Member of the Privy Council) is that Labour respect the referendum result but wish to hold the government to account to provide all the benefits, rights and freedoms that British citizens currently enjoy after Brexit, as stated by the Brexit Secretary David Davis in Parliament. This is the test for Brexit failure or success. Labour is, however, keen to reflect the democratic wish of the British people and move in accordance with their will.

    I don't believe thousands of new civil servants will by needed. Better software will be a priority.
    According to reports from Civil Service World a quarter of all the staff being drafted into the new Department for Exiting the European Union are coming in from outside of the Civil Service, that demonstrates new staff have been required.

    https://www.civilserviceworld.com/ar...-civil-service

    Also, the mammoth task of delivering Brexit means the Civil Service will be stretched across all departments without extra staff for most of them, as indicated by Sir Amyas Morse Head of the National Audit Office.

    Overstretched civil service being set up to fail on Brexit, says NAO boss Amyas Morse | Civil Service World

    Most jobs will be replaced by robots in 10 years. The banking and accountancy professions will disappear. Teachers will be gone. The medical professional could also disappear. Even nursing staff could be robots.
    Britain free of the EU will be better placed to cope with the new technology.
    As to your last two points, I will go with Strange's response, as he is far more knowledgeable and experienced on these issues than either of us.
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  82. #81  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    You have to accept the democratic decision. Not accepting it would be even more disastrous.
    Agreed there.
    Don't blame the people who voted for Brexit. Blame the politicians for calling the referendum.
    So they made you do it?

    Geez. Take responsibility for your own actions. I know we have something of a victim culture nowadays, but come on.
    Don't see any massive upturn of xenophobic attitudes other than the usual banter. Please list examples.
    From the Independent:
    =============================
    Hate crimes rise by up to 100 per cent across England and Wales, figures reveal Spike in cases comes after The Independent reveals police are planning to increase protection for vulnerable groups






    The number of hate crimes recorded by regional police forces rose by up to 100 per cent in the months following the Brexit vote, new figures show.
    Dorset saw the greatest increase, with the 104 offences logged between July and September 2016 equating to double the total from April to June. Across England and Wales the rise was 27 per cent.


    In total, 10 force areas saw rises of 50 per cent or more. Below we publish the full list.
    ==============================
    Most jobs will be replaced by robots in 10 years. The banking and accountancy professions will disappear. Teachers will be gone. The medical professional could also disappear. Even nursing staff could be robots.
    ?? Teachers will be gone? Are you serious? And nurses? Robots can't even lift patients yet, let alone manage their care.
    Britain free of the EU will be better placed to cope with the new technology.
    Because those German engineers are clueless.
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  83. #82  
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    The increase in reported 'hate crimes' was expected. The stats are skewed because more people are likely to report it.
    How much of this was just name calling by weak individuals?

    I think you will find xenophobic attitudes prevail all over the world. Try being non Malay in Malaysia.
    I was a victim of a hate crime once, by a Muslim, which I could have reported to the police but didn't. It can work both ways.

    I suspect most of you guys are not from working class backgrounds. So you wouldn't understand why the sign 'Welcome to Leominster' was replaced with 'Welcome to Poland'.
    But I do understand that. I also understand why people from places like Boston and Rugby are appalled by the loss of their town centres to Polish and other European supermarkets.
    Some are even having to learn some Polish just to get a job.

    Polish lorry driver kills 8. Not only was this reported in the Daily Hate but the BBC also emphasised he was Polish and drunk.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-M1-smash.html

    Obviously you Remoaners are not in favour of taking back control and you would have had no objection to the population rising to 80 million.
    I believe quite a lot of people picked up on Cameron saying we can do nothing about immigration from the EU.

    https://www.replacedbyrobot.info/

    Try accountant.
    Last edited by ox; August 29th, 2017 at 06:24 AM.
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  84. #83  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The increase in reported 'hate crimes' was expected. The stats are skewed because more people are likely to report it.
    How much of this was just name calling by weak individuals?

    I think you will find xenophobic attitudes prevail all over the world. Try being non Malay in Malaysia.
    I was a victim of a hate crime once, by a Muslim, which I could have reported to the police but didn't. It can work both ways.

    I suspect most of you guys are not from working class backgrounds. So you wouldn't understand why the sign 'Welcome to Leominster' was replaced with 'Welcome to Poland'.
    But I do understand that. I also understand why people from places like Boston and Rugby are appalled by the loss of their town centres to Polish and other European supermarkets.
    Some are even having to learn some Polish just to get a job.

    Polish lorry driver kills 8. Not only was this reported in the Daily Hate but the BBC also emphasised he was Polish and drunk.
    Polish-born 'drink driver', 31, in court over M1 smash | Daily Mail Online

    Obviously you Remoaners are not in favour of taking back control and you would have had no objection to the population rising to 80 million.
    I believe quite a lot of people picked up on Cameron saying we can do nothing about immigration from the EU.

    https://www.replacedbyrobot.info/

    Try accountant.
    I thought there was also an English truck driver involved in this incident who is similarly charged with dangerous driving? But you ignore that, I see.

    As for "taking back control", a lot of this thread has been devoted to pointing out how stupid a delusion that is.
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  85. #84  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The increase in reported 'hate crimes' was expected. The stats are skewed because more people are likely to report it.
    How much of this was just name calling by weak individuals?

    I think you will find xenophobic attitudes prevail all over the world. Try being non Malay in Malaysia.
    I was a victim of a hate crime once, by a Muslim, which I could have reported to the police but didn't. It can work both ways.

    I suspect most of you guys are not from working class backgrounds. So you wouldn't understand why the sign 'Welcome to Leominster' was replaced with 'Welcome to Poland'.
    But I do understand that. I also understand why people from places like Boston and Rugby are appalled by the loss of their town centres to Polish and other European supermarkets.
    Some are even having to learn some Polish just to get a job.

    Polish lorry driver kills 8. Not only was this reported in the Daily Hate but the BBC also emphasised he was Polish and drunk.
    Polish-born 'drink driver', 31, in court over M1 smash | Daily Mail Online

    Obviously you Remoaners are not in favour of taking back control and you would have had no objection to the population rising to 80 million.
    I believe quite a lot of people picked up on Cameron saying we can do nothing about immigration from the EU.

    https://www.replacedbyrobot.info/

    Try accountant.
    Such a great example of xenophobia
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  86. #85  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The increase in reported 'hate crimes' was expected. The stats are skewed because more people are likely to report it.
    Since they come from police reports - unlikely.
    I think you will find xenophobic attitudes prevail all over the world.
    Of course. And when you validate and empower those xenophobes, they will act out more often. Simple human nature. Like you said, not unexpected at all. Same thing happened here.
    I was a victim of a hate crime once, by a Muslim
    That's too bad. It's also too bad you now feel that the opposite is justified.
    I suspect most of you guys are not from working class backgrounds.
    You'd be wrong. My grandparents worked as mail carriers, kitchen help and bus drivers. My father was in the military, then worked on a dredge, then became a schoolteacher later in life. I started my working life as a waiter.
    So you wouldn't understand why the sign 'Welcome to Leominster' was replaced with 'Welcome to Poland'.
    And you wouldn't understand what it was like to have your grandparents deal with "Irish need not apply" signs. But that's OK; we have largely moved beyond that (with a few exceptions, such as the current hatred towards Muslims.)
    But I do understand that. I also understand why people from places like Boston and Rugby are appalled by the loss of their town centres to Polish and other European supermarkets.
    Just as the New Yorkers were appalled to "lose their city" to the Irish when my grandparents came over. Just as the US was appalled to "lose their country" to the Germans and Dutch. Just as the natives where you now live were appalled to lose their civilization to yours.

    Fortunately, for the most part, hate is losing out to tolerance worldwide.
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  87. #86  
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    So in addition to being called a tit, a fuckwit, an alcoholic, being told to fuck off, I am now a xenophobe.
    What was it about being called names if you challenge orthodoxy?
    I am not xenophobic. I've travelled to over 50 countries and I am an internationalist.
    The last 2 posters live in the US, so what do they know about it?
    The worst country of all for personal safety, in my experience, is the US.
    On 3 brief visits I was smashed in the head in LA, and robbed and had a knife pulled on me in NY.
    No way will I ever go back to that country.
    Even in Afghanistan I felt safe, but in the US I was always nervous.
    Clearly your president is a fine example of tolerance.
    Unlike the ugly centres of US cities (if they have a centre) the beauty of some English town centres has been trashed by foreign supermarkets.

    All I have done is try to explain as to why people voted for Brexit, and the biggest issue was immigration.
    Why should you ignore the facts? Why should you consider that leave voters were xenophobes?
    Nobody commented on the projected population growth of the UK to 80 million if we do not control immigration.
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    All immigrants are either wealthy or need a job to support themselves in Britain, without employment they cannot stay here longer than 3 months, that's the law, the same as in every other EU member state. Employers are currently dictating immigration numbers because they require workers they cannot find from the native British population.

    What this means, in reality, is that far from immigration numbers falling they will remain in line with what UK business demands regardless, Brexit or no Brexit. The only real thing that will change is the nationality of the immigrants, instead of French, German, Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish, Italien or Polish immigrants coming to the UK, we are likely to see more people arriving from Commonwealth countries where wages are lower than Britain or Europe, so we'll be getting far more Nigerians, Rwandans, Sierra Leoneans, Botswanans, Bangladeshis, Guyanan and Malaysians to make up the shortfall in workforce instead. All the political pressure is on cutting EU immigration and not non-EU immigration which remains higher and also has been demonstrated over several years during which the government have had complete control of non-EU immigration, that they are either unable or unwilling to cut non-EU immigration.

    Please don't be fooled into thinking Brexit is really about immigration numbers, because it really isn't, at least not for the Conservative establishment (those in charge of it). The right wing Brexiteers have set their stall out with the aim of reducing taxes for the wealthy and preventing wage growth, they have demonstrated absolutely zero interest in the plight of those living in overcrowded towns and cities in the less well off parts of Britain. They will seek to keep wages low and strip workers of their rights under the guise of protecting British business, whilst allowing said business to bring in workers from pretty much any country they like, so long as it's not from the EU, by claiming it is 'controlled' immigration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    What was it about being called names if you challenge orthodoxy?
    Here in the US, there are a lot of white supremacists who are using a similar argument - "you're just calling me a racist because I am challenging accepted ideas!" No, we're calling you a racist because you think whites are superior to blacks.
    I am not xenophobic. I've travelled to over 50 countries and I am an internationalist.
    ??

    You may or may not be xenophobic; I don't know you so I can't tell. But saying "I travel a lot so I can't be xenophobic" is like saying "I have black friends so I can't be racist." Doesn't fly - and in general, people who claim such things don't understand what racism is.
    The worst country of all for personal safety, in my experience, is the US.
    On 3 brief visits I was smashed in the head in LA, and robbed and had a knife pulled on me in NY.
    No way will I ever go back to that country.
    Sounds like that's a good call for you.
    Unlike the ugly centres of US cities (if they have a centre) the beauty of some English town centres has been trashed by foreign supermarkets.
    Last time I was there, there were more Tesco Express places "trashing the beauty of English town centres" than foreign supermarkets.
    All I have done is try to explain as to why people voted for Brexit, and the biggest issue was immigration.
    And all we've done is try to explain that that is due in large part to xenophobia.
    Why should you ignore the facts?
    No one is ignoring the fact.
    Why are you ignoring the fact that a desire to exclude foreigners from places near you, due to fear of overpopulation, "trashing town centers" and "the loss of town centers to foreigners" is xenophobia?

    Clearly your president is a fine example of tolerance.
    Great example.

    He's a xenophobic, racist jerk. This was demonstrated through his support of Brexit, and his travel ban which banned Muslims from the country for very similar reasons that you espouse. Wikipedia's entry on that includes an excellent example of xenophobia:

    "After Donald Trump took presidential office in 2017, he repeatedly attempted to enact a travel ban on originally seven countries, later changed to six. The seven original countries were Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Syria and Libya."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    What was it about being called names if you challenge orthodoxy?
    Here in the US, there are a lot of white supremacists who are using a similar argument - "you're just calling me a racist because I am challenging accepted ideas!" No, we're calling you a racist because you think whites are superior to blacks.
    I am not xenophobic. I've travelled to over 50 countries and I am an internationalist.
    ??

    You may or may not be xenophobic; I don't know you so I can't tell. But saying "I travel a lot so I can't be xenophobic" is like saying "I have black friends so I can't be racist." Doesn't fly - and in general, people who claim such things don't understand what racism is.
    The worst country of all for personal safety, in my experience, is the US.
    On 3 brief visits I was smashed in the head in LA, and robbed and had a knife pulled on me in NY.
    No way will I ever go back to that country.
    Sounds like that's a good call for you.
    Unlike the ugly centres of US cities (if they have a centre) the beauty of some English town centres has been trashed by foreign supermarkets.
    Last time I was there, there were more Tesco Express places "trashing the beauty of English town centres" than foreign supermarkets.
    All I have done is try to explain as to why people voted for Brexit, and the biggest issue was immigration.
    And all we've done is try to explain that that is due in large part to xenophobia.
    Why should you ignore the facts?
    No one is ignoring the fact.
    Why are you ignoring the fact that a desire to exclude foreigners from places near you, due to fear of overpopulation, "trashing town centers" and "the loss of town centers to foreigners" is xenophobia?

    Clearly your president is a fine example of tolerance.
    Great example.

    He's a xenophobic, racist jerk. This was demonstrated through his support of Brexit, and his travel ban which banned Muslims from the country for very similar reasons that you espouse. Wikipedia's entry on that includes an excellent example of xenophobia:

    "After Donald Trump took presidential office in 2017, he repeatedly attempted to enact a travel ban on originally seven countries, later changed to six. The seven original countries were Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Syria and Libya."
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  91. #90  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Here in the US, there are a lot of white supremacists...
    In contrast there are virtually none in England which is one of the most tolerant nations on earth.
    This is more than can be said for its neighbours. Republic of Ireland which hates protestants and Jews (famous for not letting them in).

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/dec/08/ireland

    Then there's the sectarian hate in Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland and the Welsh who advertise 'English Go Home'.

    Sounds like that's a good call for you.
    Yes, and you keep your violent cities and gun crime. Nobody carries a gun for personal protection here.

    Last time I was there, there were more Tesco Express places "trashing the beauty of English town centres" than foreign supermarkets.
    They don't have the ugly facades of the foreign stores.

    I'm not commenting on Trump. That is up to the American people.

    After Round 3 of the Brexit talks, it appears the score is British Bulldog 0, Unelected EU Bureaucrats 0.
    Sense the bulldog is getting a bit growly.
    Ascended: What do you think?
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  92. #91  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Here in the US, there are a lot of white supremacists...
    In contrast there are virtually none in England which is one of the most tolerant nations on earth.
    This is more than can be said for its neighbours. Republic of Ireland which hates protestants and Jews (famous for not letting them in).

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/dec/08/ireland

    Then there's the sectarian hate in Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland and the Welsh who advertise 'English Go Home'.

    Sounds like that's a good call for you.
    Yes, and you keep your violent cities and gun crime. Nobody carries a gun for personal protection here.

    Last time I was there, there were more Tesco Express places "trashing the beauty of English town centres" than foreign supermarkets.
    They don't have the ugly facades of the foreign stores.

    I'm not commenting on Trump. That is up to the American people.

    After Round 3 of the Brexit talks, it appears the score is British Bulldog 0, Unelected EU Bureaucrats 0.
    Sense the bulldog is getting a bit growly.
    Ascended: What do you think?
    It can growl as much as it likes but it has no teeth with which to bite the EU. Any agreement will require goodwill from the EU. If that is lost by attempted aggression, the EU can just let the UK crash out. They lose some money, but businesses in the UK lose their livelihood. Still, we will be able to comfort ourselves that we have taken back control - over our dole queues - and that nobody from overseas will want to work here any more. So let's go for it, eh?
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  93. #92  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Here in the US, there are a lot of white supremacists...
    In contrast there are virtually none in England which is one of the most tolerant nations on earth.
    In the UK they are called "white nationalists" - they generally just call themselves nationalists. We are seeing a lot more of them after Brexit. National Action was a white supremacist organization in the UK that the government tried to quash, but has still been operating.
    This is more than can be said for its neighbours. Republic of Ireland which hates protestants and Jews (famous for not letting them in).
    Sounds like the UK is eager to follow in their footsteps.
    Last time I was there, there were more Tesco Express places "trashing the beauty of English town centres" than foreign supermarkets.
    They don't have the ugly facades of the foreign stores.
    So Tesco "trashing the beauty of English town centres" is OK - but if they are foreigners it's not OK, because they are foreign?

    That is pretty much the definition of xenophobia. Dislike of someone/something simply because it's foreign.

    That's an advantage to living in the US. We have a wide variety of cultures here, and almost no one thinks their people/stores/communities are ugly just because they are foreign.
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  94. #93  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    That's an advantage to living in the US. We have a wide variety of cultures here, and almost no one thinks their people/stores/communities are ugly just because they are foreign.
    Bill wish I could like your comment. And damn straight, I wish my town had more foreign restaurants and stores. An Indian family recently opened a grocery store and deli, so now it's easier to get my Indian food fix than it was before.

    Point is a town does better by having more variety of stores and restaurants.
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

    "It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down"
    - Yagyu Munenori

    "Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Ascended: What do you think?
    Michel Barnier seems to be suggesting we aren't making any progress, yet David Davis expresses he's pleased with the progress that has been made, slightly confusing. So what exactly is this progress? What has the UK thus far agreed with the EU? Have we come to an arrangement over citizens rights post-Brexit? Do we have agreement on how to proceed with the Irish border regarding the free movement of people, money, goods or services? Have the future customs arrangements for the Irish border been agreed upon? Is it perhaps, that I've missed Mr Davis and Mr Barnier coming to an agreement over paying for the cost of the UK's obligations? Vis-à-vis pension costs for diplomats conducting work on behalf of the UK or all the schemes and programs the UK helped create or has signed etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    That's an advantage to living in the US. We have a wide variety of cultures here, and almost no one thinks their people/stores/communities are ugly just because they are foreign.
    Bill wish I could like your comment. And damn straight, I wish my town had more foreign restaurants and stores. An Indian family recently opened a grocery store and deli, so now it's easier to get my Indian food fix than it was before.

    Point is a town does better by having more variety of stores and restaurants.
    How bland and boring would the world suddenly appear to become if we were all restricted to only the traditional cuisine of our own particular nation! The culinary delights offered up by the integration of many cultures is surely one of the better reasons we have for celebrating and embracing diversity, Falconer I'm in complete agreement with both you and Bill on this one and certainly both of you equally deserve a like.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  96. #95  
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    It appears things are becoming a little clearer now.
    How stupid to think the EU are not after one item only, and that is money.
    They want to teach us a lesson just in case any other nation considers leaving.
    There will no escape from cEUlditz.
    I think it proves what a nasty organisation the EU is and why we are right to leave.

    How bland and boring would the world suddenly appear to become if we were all restricted to only the traditional cuisine of our own particular nation! The culinary delights offered up by the integration of many cultures is surely one of the better reasons we have for celebrating and embracing diversity
    Are you including the Mcshit and the KFshit in this, or are you just talking about the Indian, the sight of which alone makes me want to puke?
    The Battle of Waterloo was won on meat from English farms.
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  97. #96  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    It appears things are becoming a little clearer now.
    How stupid to think the EU are not after one item only, and that is money.
    They want to teach us a lesson just in case any other nation considers leaving.
    There will no escape from cEUlditz.
    I think it proves what a nasty organisation the EU is and why we are right to leave.

    How bland and boring would the world suddenly appear to become if we were all restricted to only the traditional cuisine of our own particular nation! The culinary delights offered up by the integration of many cultures is surely one of the better reasons we have for celebrating and embracing diversity
    Are you including the Mcshit and the KFshit in this, or are you just talking about the Indian, the sight of which alone makes me want to puke?
    The Battle of Waterloo was won on meat from English farms.
    Of course the EU is not going to give the UK the advantages of membership without the agreements and costs that go with membership. Only a fool would imagine otherwise.

    Barnier is pointing out that since the Brexshitters have failed to explain the inevitable trade-offs to the British electorate, he will now have to do this. The Brexshitters have never understood that the EU is, for its members, far more than a mutual free trade deal. Its integrity will therefore be defended forcefully.

    As for the remarks about food, only a Brexshitter would be stupid enough to think McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken or Indian food are something to do with the European Union.

    Think rather of French, Spanish and Italian cheese, wine and charcuterie, the pizza and pasta dishes we all enjoy so much, Belgian beer and moules frites, etc.

    Delicatessen is a German word, by the way.

    (The food of the British Army at Waterloo was by all accounts exiguous and probably included little or no meat at all: https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...ops%20waterloo )
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  98. #97  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    As for the remarks about food, only a Brexshitter would be stupid enough to think McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken or Indian food are something to do with the European Union.
    We don't need the American and Indian foods or any other exotics.
    I hope all those fancy foreign restaurants close down through staff shortages.
    We did well enough historically on simple local sourced foods of meat, fish, eggs, potatoes and dairy.
    Look at the British Army website for dietary advice.

    Think rather of French, Spanish and Italian cheese, wine and charcuterie, the pizza and pasta dishes we all enjoy so much, Belgian beer and moules frites, etc.
    Our cheese is infinitely better. Don't drink myself but I'm told our beer is better.
    Don't like anything Italian.
    As for charcuterie and moules frites, I don't know what they are and don't care.

    Delicatessen is a German word, by the way.
    I know that, but I'm trying to figure out why you mentioned it.

    The food of the British Army at Waterloo was by all accounts exiguous and probably included little or no meat at all:
    Soldiers that are fed on real meat have an advantage. That does not mean just prior to battle. The physique and muscle are there already.
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  99. #98  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    As for the remarks about food, only a Brexshitter would be stupid enough to think McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken or Indian food are something to do with the European Union.
    We don't need the American and Indian foods or any other exotics.
    I hope all those fancy foreign restaurants close down through staff shortages.
    We did well enough historically on simple local sourced foods of meat, fish, eggs, potatoes and dairy.
    Look at the British Army website for dietary advice.

    Think rather of French, Spanish and Italian cheese, wine and charcuterie, the pizza and pasta dishes we all enjoy so much, Belgian beer and moules frites, etc.
    Our cheese is infinitely better. Don't drink myself but I'm told our beer is better.
    Don't like anything Italian.
    As for charcuterie and moules frites, I don't know what they are and don't care.

    Delicatessen is a German word, by the way.
    I know that, but I'm trying to figure out why you mentioned it.

    The food of the British Army at Waterloo was by all accounts exiguous and probably included little or no meat at all:
    Soldiers that are fed on real meat have an advantage. That does not mean just prior to battle. The physique and muscle are there already.
    But according to Wellington, Waterloo was only won thanks to the arrival of the Prussians:

    "I should not do justice to my own feelings, or to Marshal Blücher and the Prussian army, if I did not attribute the successful result of this arduous day to the cordial and timely assistance I received from them. The operation of General Bülow upon the enemy's flank was a most decisive one; and, even if I had not found myself in a situation to make the attack which produced the final result, it would have forced the enemy to retire if his attacks should have failed, and would have prevented him from taking advantage of them if they should unfortunately have succeeded".

    So a diet of sauerkraut and frankfurters seems to be the secret of this great "British" military victory.
    Last edited by exchemist; September 3rd, 2017 at 11:17 AM.
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  100. #99  
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    So the battle was probably swung by the arrival of the Prussians, but how do you know they were fed on sauerkraut and frankfurters?

    I note that Waterloo is not far from Brussels where the victorious Wellington rode into after the battle.
    The French with their cognac and perfume, no match for the British, Dutch and Prussians.

    Instead of the Lion of Waterloo, we could have the Bulldog of Brussels, but I guess the monument would have to be in London.
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  101. #100  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    So the battle was probably swung by the arrival of the Prussians, but how do you know they were fed on sauerkraut and frankfurters?

    I note that Waterloo is not far from Brussels where the victorious Wellington rode into after the battle.
    The French with their cognac and perfume, no match for the British, Dutch and Prussians.

    Instead of the Lion of Waterloo, we could have the Bulldog of Brussels, but I guess the monument would have to be in London.
    Near BRUSSELS?!!! I expect the beastly, perfumed, cognac-swilling Frogs were poisoned with sprouts, then.

    But I confess I am increasingly enjoying the self-portrait you are painting of yourself as the stereotypical Little Englander, trapped in the 1950s and railing against filthy foreign muck. Tell me, do you like garlic? And what is your opinion of driving on the right?
    Last edited by exchemist; September 3rd, 2017 at 01:27 PM.
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