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Thread: Brexit Progress Update

  1. #401  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    If there is a second referendum could it include a second ,preliminary question as to whether it is right that that second referendum should be held?

    Only if the answer to that was "yes" (with possibly a high bar) would the second referendum result be valid....

    Because,it must seem unfair and undemocratic to many of the "victors" (and "losers" ) of the first referendum that a follow up referendum should be held at all.
    The way I imagine it will have to be explained is by telling the truth: that the terms of departure could only be guessed at, at the time the original referendum was held and, now that the work has been done to flesh them out, they are not going to be as many people thought at the time (to put it politely). Hence a new vote is needed to confirm the course of action, now that we have a proper idea of the consequences.

    Just as when you make an offer on a house, it is subject to survey and contract, before you commit to going ahead with the purchase.
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  2. #402  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    If there is a second referendum could it include a second ,preliminary question as to whether it is right that that second referendum should be held?

    Only if the answer to that was "yes" (with possibly a high bar) would the second referendum result be valid....

    Because,it must seem unfair and undemocratic to many of the "victors" (and "losers" ) of the first referendum that a follow up referendum should be held at all.
    The way I imagine it will have to be explained is by telling the truth: that the terms of departure could only be guessed at, at the time the original referendum was held and, now that the work has been done to flesh them out, they are not going to be as many people thought at the time (to put it politely). Hence a new vote is needed to confirm the course of action, now that we have a proper idea of the consequences.

    Just as when you make an offer on a house, it is subject to survey and contract, before you commit to going ahead with the purchase.
    What you are saying is incorrect, in British politics the first past the post is the winner.
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  3. #403  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    If there is a second referendum could it include a second ,preliminary question as to whether it is right that that second referendum should be held?

    Only if the answer to that was "yes" (with possibly a high bar) would the second referendum result be valid....

    Because,it must seem unfair and undemocratic to many of the "victors" (and "losers" ) of the first referendum that a follow up referendum should be held at all.
    The way I imagine it will have to be explained is by telling the truth: that the terms of departure could only be guessed at, at the time the original referendum was held and, now that the work has been done to flesh them out, they are not going to be as many people thought at the time (to put it politely). Hence a new vote is needed to confirm the course of action, now that we have a proper idea of the consequences.

    Just as when you make an offer on a house, it is subject to survey and contract, before you commit to going ahead with the purchase.
    What you are saying is incorrect, in British politics the first past the post is the winner.
    Irrelevant to an advisory referendum.
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  4. #404  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    If there is a second referendum could it include a second ,preliminary question as to whether it is right that that second referendum should be held?

    Only if the answer to that was "yes" (with possibly a high bar) would the second referendum result be valid....

    Because,it must seem unfair and undemocratic to many of the "victors" (and "losers" ) of the first referendum that a follow up referendum should be held at all.
    The way I imagine it will have to be explained is by telling the truth: that the terms of departure could only be guessed at, at the time the original referendum was held and, now that the work has been done to flesh them out, they are not going to be as many people thought at the time (to put it politely). Hence a new vote is needed to confirm the course of action, now that we have a proper idea of the consequences.

    Just as when you make an offer on a house, it is subject to survey and contract, before you commit to going ahead with the purchase.
    What you are saying is incorrect, in British politics the first past the post is the winner.
    Irrelevant to an advisory referendum.
    David Cameron quit his premiership due to losing the referendum on the No/Yes vote of leaving the EU. This referendum was hardly an advisory referendum, we voted Yes to leave the EU, that is it.
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  5. #405  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    David Cameron quit his premiership due to losing the referendum on the No/Yes vote of leaving the EU. This referendum was hardly an advisory referendum, we voted Yes to leave the EU, that is it.
    Well, you can't have it both ways. I agree in practice it made it impossible for Cameron to stay on. But if you want to argue about the constitution, i.e. 1st past the post etc, its official status was merely advisory.
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    Nothing is over till the fat lady sings.

    The majority of politicians did not want Brexit, the vote was won by a very small majority. Currently the majority 55% of the british electorate do not want brexit. Another Brexit deal will not be negotiated by europe. If there is an election any party backing Brexit will likely be annihilated and lose massively. Mrs May will likely not be leading the conservatives into the next election. Those MPs that wanted brexit have changed there minds based on the deal they have got. The Brexit deal offered does not in any way match what most people voted for.

    The MP's do not wish to commit political suicide, by accepting a deal which doesnt deliver most sun readers expectations . This year there will likely be another vote revolving around Brexit, this will take the form of another referendum or election. MP's supporting Brexit in an election will lose. If they have a referendum, they might not lose so badly if they allow the electorate to change there vote based upon what has been offered in the current deal.

    Currently the options are No deal and exit the EU, with a hard border in Ireland or staying in the EU. There is not going to be another deal, this has been made very clear.

    We may have voted yes, but most of us have a firm opinion now that leaving the EU is not the best idea we have had. Any political party forcing a bad deal on people because it is the only deal, will not fare well in the next election and possibly subsequent ones.
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  7. #407  
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamA View Post
    Nothing is over till the fat lady sings.

    The majority of politicians did not want Brexit, the vote was won by a very small majority. Currently the majority 55% of the british electorate do not want brexit. Another Brexit deal will not be negotiated by europe. If there is an election any party backing Brexit will likely be annihilated and lose massively. Mrs May will likely not be leading the conservatives into the next election. Those MPs that wanted brexit have changed there minds based on the deal they have got. The Brexit deal offered does not in any way match what most people voted for.

    The MP's do not wish to commit political suicide, by accepting a deal which doesnt deliver most sun readers expectations . This year there will likely be another vote revolving around Brexit, this will take the form of another referendum or election. MP's supporting Brexit in an election will lose. If they have a referendum, they might not lose so badly if they allow the electorate to change there vote based upon what has been offered in the current deal.

    Currently the options are No deal and exit the EU, with a hard border in Ireland or staying in the EU. There is not going to be another deal, this has been made very clear.

    We may have voted yes, but most of us have a firm opinion now that leaving the EU is not the best idea we have had. Any political party forcing a bad deal on people because it is the only deal, will not fare well in the next election and possibly subsequent ones.
    You have quoted that 55% of the British electorate do not want Brexit. This figure may be correct or it may not be correct, however when quoting such figures, posting a link to back up what you are saying would be most helpful.
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  8. #408  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamA View Post
    Nothing is over till the fat lady sings.

    The majority of politicians did not want Brexit, the vote was won by a very small majority. Currently the majority 55% of the british electorate do not want brexit. Another Brexit deal will not be negotiated by europe. If there is an election any party backing Brexit will likely be annihilated and lose massively. Mrs May will likely not be leading the conservatives into the next election. Those MPs that wanted brexit have changed there minds based on the deal they have got. The Brexit deal offered does not in any way match what most people voted for.

    The MP's do not wish to commit political suicide, by accepting a deal which doesnt deliver most sun readers expectations . This year there will likely be another vote revolving around Brexit, this will take the form of another referendum or election. MP's supporting Brexit in an election will lose. If they have a referendum, they might not lose so badly if they allow the electorate to change there vote based upon what has been offered in the current deal.

    Currently the options are No deal and exit the EU, with a hard border in Ireland or staying in the EU. There is not going to be another deal, this has been made very clear.

    We may have voted yes, but most of us have a firm opinion now that leaving the EU is not the best idea we have had. Any political party forcing a bad deal on people because it is the only deal, will not fare well in the next election and possibly subsequent ones.
    You have quoted that 55% of the British electorate do not want Brexit. This figure may be correct or it may not be correct, however when quoting such figures, posting a link to back up what you are saying would be most helpful.
    Here's one, from a presumably fairly unbiased source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...lic-sentiment/

    That makes it 53% now for Remain.

    The weakness of all these polls is that what people tell researchers and what they do in the polling booth are not quite the same. So I would say 53% is too close to call.

    I think we'd be better off to wait a few years for some of the gammons to die off before re-running a referendum.
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    If there is a no deal exit will that make it more likely that the UK will be refused readmission to the EU?

    It was a long process to gain entry in the first place.Would a no deal exit be effectively burning our bridges if opinion changed and we wanted to join again in 10 years for example?
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  10. #410  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    If there is a no deal exit will that make it more likely that the UK will be refused readmission to the EU?

    It was a long process to gain entry in the first place.Would a no deal exit be effectively burning our bridges if opinion changed and we wanted to join again in 10 years for example?
    I think a lot would depend on whether we left on good terms or not and what degree of trust EU politicians would have in the UK's future behaviour if readmitted. As an economy and in terms of our political and legal systems, the UK would continue to meet all the criteria. So I think it would come down to trust. This government has managed to erode almost all the trust the EU once had in the UK as an honest and reliable partner. So it might be an uphill struggle to convince them. If we were to leave on bad terms and refuse to pay the £39bn for the commitments we have made, it would be worse.
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  11. #411  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    If there is a no deal exit will that make it more likely that the UK will be refused readmission to the EU?

    It was a long process to gain entry in the first place.Would a no deal exit be effectively burning our bridges if opinion changed and we wanted to join again in 10 years for example?
    I think a lot would depend on whether we left on good terms or not and what degree of trust EU politicians would have in the UK's future behaviour if readmitted. As an economy and in terms of our political and legal systems, the UK would continue to meet all the criteria. So I think it would come down to trust. This government has managed to erode almost all the trust the EU once had in the UK as an honest and reliable partner. So it might be an uphill struggle to convince them. If we were to leave on bad terms and refuse to pay the £39bn for the commitments we have made, it would be worse.
    Joining the euro-zone and losing the Thatcher rebate would probably be requirements to rejoin, perhaps Gibraltar as well in Spain wanted to be vindictive. If I recall every member has veto power on a new member joining.
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  12. #412  
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    Quote Originally Posted by river_rat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    I think a lot would depend on whether we left on good terms or not and what degree of trust EU politicians would have in the UK's future behaviour if readmitted. As an economy and in terms of our political and legal systems, the UK would continue to meet all the criteria. So I think it would come down to trust. This government has managed to erode almost all the trust the EU once had in the UK as an honest and reliable partner. So it might be an uphill struggle to convince them. If we were to leave on bad terms and refuse to pay the £39bn for the commitments we have made, it would be worse.
    Joining the euro-zone and losing the Thatcher rebate would probably be requirements to rejoin, perhaps Gibraltar as well in Spain wanted to be vindictive. If I recall every member has veto power on a new member joining.
    Possibly, though I don't think we should underestimate the value the EU would place on having the UK as a member - if they could be assured that we were more committed to it next time round. They might even have learnt by then that a 2-tier membership (one tier outside the Euro) would be a good idea. But it's mere speculation.
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  13. #413  
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    While I haven't seen the original Brexit movie (2016), they must be planning another.
    What might it be called and who would you having playing May, Corbyn, Bercow and all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    While I haven't seen the original Brexit movie (2016), they must be planning another.
    What might it be called and who would you having playing May, Corbyn, Bercow and all?
    any movie with Bercow in it should have as its title “i’m not happy”, referring to the incident where the classic reply was “so which one are you then?”
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  15. #415  
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    How about Brexit the Movie 2 - Order, Order, Order?
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  16. #416  
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    Old clarification still holds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZURHyR7Nzs
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  18. #418  
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    Tusk----
    "I've been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted Brexit
    without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely".

    It looks like the above.
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  19. #419  
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    prime minister Rees-Mogg, ruling insular Britannia - a vision of hell indeed
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  21. #421  
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    I don't take any notice of Stephen Fry. He has his own agenda. He is not thinking of anyone other than himself.
    He admitted he was a school bully. He still uses his intellect to bully others.

    By contrast this is what the respected philosopher John Gray has to say:

    The EU approach to immigration has led to the rise of far-right movements across the continent.
    Remainers insistent on overturning Brexit risked returning the UK to a “dark European past”.
    Remainers respond to the advance of the far right by demanding ‘more Europe’.
    In other words, a more determined move to a transnational European state.

    By attempting to remove immigration from the jurisdiction of national governments, the EU has left large numbers of people with the sense that they have no control over their lives.
    The result of pushing for a type of transnational government that most Europeans do not want has been the rise of the worst kinds of nationalism.
    If you call anyone who demands democratic control of immigration a racist, don’t be surprised when many of them go on to elect real racists.
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  22. #422  
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    Cite your source that EU immagration policy is to blame for far right policy.

    Racists are called racists for their actions, often times shpwn by xenophobic commentary on the "non-whites destrying good english villages" <·<
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  23. #423  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The EU approach to immigration has led to the rise of far-right movements across the continent.
    That's akin to blaming minority rights for the racism against minorities. "If blacks weren't so uppity, and kept in their place, we wouldn't have to do all this stuff to them. It's the fault of liberal black lovers that blacks see so much discrimination! They are forcing us to do this."
    Remainers insistent on overturning Brexit risked returning the UK to a “dark European past”.
    So the UK has been living in a "dark past" for the past ~50 years? Interesting claim.
    By attempting to remove immigration from the jurisdiction of national governments, the EU has left large numbers of people with the sense that they have no control over their lives.
    Yep. A lot of whites felt that giving rights to blacks in the 1960's resulted in "no control over their lives." They got over it.
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  24. #424  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    So the UK has been living in a "dark past" for the past ~50 years? Interesting claim.
    He was talking about the dark European past in the early part of the 20th Century when democracy was being overthrown.

    Latest poll now suggests that 85% of British people have little or no faith in their elected politicians to deliver Brexit.
    The intellectuals, the Labour Party, the loony fringe want to block it in defiance of the little people who voted for it.
    Let them pay their taxes but they shouldn't be involved in serious decisions like this is what they seem to say.
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  25. #425  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Cite your source that EU immagration policy is to blame for far right policy.

    Racists are called racists for their actions, often times shpwn by xenophobic commentary on the "non-whites destrying good english villages" <·<
    Whut's wrong with yr speling?
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  26. #426  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Cite your source that EU immigration policy is to blame for far right policy.

    Racists are called racists for their actions, often times shown by xenophobic commentary on the "non-whites destroying good English villages" <·<
    <avoidance ignored>
    We are still waiting for your answer.
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  27. #427  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Racists are called racists for their actions, often times shpwn by xenophobic commentary on the "non-whites destrying good english villages" <·<
    Where are your sources?
    Then it might be more coherent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    So the UK has been living in a "dark past" for the past ~50 years? Interesting claim.
    He was talking about the dark European past in the early part of the 20th Century when democracy was being overthrown.
    Democracy was overthrown in Europe in the early part of the 20th century? Another interesting claim. Perhaps you had different schooling than I did.
    The intellectuals, the Labour Party, the loony fringe want to block it in defiance of the little people who voted for it.
    I think they want to block it because more people in the UK are against it than for it. It's what happens in a democracy.

    Some polls from the website WhatUKThinks:

    If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?
    Remain - 48%
    Leave - 38%


    In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?
    Wrong - 48%
    Right - 39%


    If there was a referendum tomorrow with the option of accepting the government’s Brexit agreement or remaining in the EU, which would you support?
    Remain in EU - 45%
    Accept Brexit agreement - 39%
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  29. #429  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Racists are called racists for their actions, often times shpwn by xenophobic commentary on the "non-whites destrying good english villages" <·<
    Where are your sources?
    Then it might be more coherent.
    Your still avoiding the question posed, we are waiting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Democracy was overthrown in Europe in the early part of the 20th century? Another interesting claim. Perhaps you had different schooling than I did.
    to be fair, democracy was replaced by dictatorship in the following countries in the first half of the 20th century : Russia, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy - while not all of Europe, it’s a substantial portion of it + in a lot of the remaining countries there were influential groups who sympathised with communism or fascism
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  31. #431  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Cite your source that EU immagration policy is to blame for far right policy.

    Racists are called racists for their actions, often times shpwn by xenophobic commentary on the "non-whites destrying good english villages" <·<
    You offer no evidence for your quote, therefore you are supplying fake news, please stop this.
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  32. #432  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Democracy was overthrown in Europe in the early part of the 20th century? Another interesting claim. Perhaps you had different schooling than I did.
    to be fair, democracy was replaced by dictatorship in the following countries in the first half of the 20th century : Russia, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy - while not all of Europe, it’s a substantial portion of it + in a lot of the remaining countries there were influential groups who sympathised with communism or fascism
    ...joined by Greece in the 1960s and 70s, I think. Salazar and Franco lasted well into the 70s too.
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  33. #433  
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    After the Second World War, the Warsaw Pact was born.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact
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  34. #434  
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    Dave that was a direct quote from ox earlier in the thread, so no, it is not "fake news" (a term thst is much overused at this point by trump and the like to try to discredit things they dont like but know are true)
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  35. #435  
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    John Gray, thats the source. It’s right there in the post by Ox.
    So, could Isreali government policy toward the Palestinian people be a factor in feelings of antisemitism?
    Is BDS antisemitism?

    And to be on topic;
    Brexit? Does anybody miss NAFTA? Anybody wish the TPP had passed?
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    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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  36. #436  
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    With just seven weeks until the UK is due to leave the EU, things haven't improved and if they don't change soon we look like leaving in the most destructive & chaotic way possible. But this is exactly what the Brexiteers appear to want in spite of the consequences.

    When Brexiteers told referendum voters the UK would be doing trade deals with the rest of the world they forgot to mention a few things. Such as, of all the 168 countries for which the Financial Times (30th May 2017) discovered the EU currently holds 759 international treaties that concern the UK, less than 7 weeks out from the UK's supposed EU exit, the British government would have negotiated new trade agreements with just 2 of them, the Faroe Islands and Chile.

    They sold voters on the notion of this new found British sovereignty that would result from Brexit, referring to unelected Brussels bureaucrats and an absence of democracy in the EU, whilst Nigel Farage collected his salary & expenses as the elected British MEP for UKIP in the European Parliament, all the time secretly knowing that if we left the EU, we would lose all of our existing EU trade agreements and would have no other trading arrangements than to subject our nation to the regulations, rules, authority & control of the WTO from Geneva (which doesn't have a parliament or any elected members), which would result in the largest transfer of sovereignty in British history, with the UK forced to acquiesce to demands from nations around the planet, whilst trying to pass a tariff schedule and be able to reduce the huge automatic default new tariffs slapped on all British export goods & services.

    Brexiteers didn't tell us that Brexit would mean 29% of companies surveyed by the Institute of Directors had either relocated or were looking into relocating abroad because of Brexit. They also failed to mention what the BoE stated could be a 30% crash in real estate values. Neither did they mention how the 4.2 million people, (1.2 million Brits living in the EU & 3 million EU citizens living in the UK) caught up not knowing whether their residency status will be accepted or not, would still be living in limbo nearly 3 years later.

    The Brexiteers sold voters on the notion that Brexit would be a little bit of disruption followed by the country suddenly excelling. In reality, the UK still has no plan, all the illusions are falling apart, people are leaving, companies are leaving and money is leaving the UK. We are now facing years of disruption, followed by getting poorer & poorer relative to where we were heading prior to the referendum. Just to highlight this point, already, prior to even leaving EU, over $1000,000,000,000 has been moved out of the UK. Brexit has cost us more than recovering from a nuclear explosion yet this is before the real chaos has even begun.

    No matter how grim the situation gets, some Leave voters just seemingly ignore reality and continue to blame anybody & everybody except the very people who gaslighted them into voting for this disaster. The people that never had a plan, but knew what they were unleashing on the rest of us and knew that all the things voters wanted that they told voters they would get was a complete fantasy.

    Incidentally, many of the very same people who will profit enormously from the destruction of the British economy and even more so if it creates wider ripples which send the whole world economy into recession, sadly, not beyond the realms of possibility given how so many funds & banks from across the globe are heavily invested in the UK property market.
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  37. #437  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    With just seven weeks until the UK is due to leave the EU, things haven't improved and if they don't change soon we look like leaving in the most destructive & chaotic way possible. But this is exactly what the Brexiteers appear to want in spite of the consequences.

    When Brexiteers told referendum voters the UK would be doing trade deals with the rest of the world they forgot to mention a few things. Such as, of all the 168 countries for which the Financial Times (30th May 2017) discovered the EU currently holds 759 international treaties that concern the UK, less than 7 weeks out from the UK's supposed EU exit, the British government would have negotiated new trade agreements with just 2 of them, the Faroe Islands and Chile.

    They sold voters on the notion of this new found British sovereignty that would result from Brexit, referring to unelected Brussels bureaucrats and an absence of democracy in the EU, whilst Nigel Farage collected his salary & expenses as the elected British MEP for UKIP in the European Parliament, all the time secretly knowing that if we left the EU, we would lose all of our existing EU trade agreements and would have no other trading arrangements than to subject our nation to the regulations, rules, authority & control of the WTO from Geneva (which doesn't have a parliament or any elected members), which would result in the largest transfer of sovereignty in British history, with the UK forced to acquiesce to demands from nations around the planet, whilst trying to pass a tariff schedule and be able to reduce the huge automatic default new tariffs slapped on all British export goods & services.

    Brexiteers didn't tell us that Brexit would mean 29% of companies surveyed by the Institute of Directors had either relocated or were looking into relocating abroad because of Brexit. They also failed to mention what the BoE stated could be a 30% crash in real estate values. Neither did they mention how the 4.2 million people, (1.2 million Brits living in the EU & 3 million EU citizens living in the UK) caught up not knowing whether their residency status will be accepted or not, would still be living in limbo nearly 3 years later.

    The Brexiteers sold voters on the notion that Brexit would be a little bit of disruption followed by the country suddenly excelling. In reality, the UK still has no plan, all the illusions are falling apart, people are leaving, companies are leaving and money is leaving the UK. We are now facing years of disruption, followed by getting poorer & poorer relative to where we were heading prior to the referendum. Just to highlight this point, already, prior to even leaving EU, over $1000,000,000,000 has been moved out of the UK. Brexit has cost us more than recovering from a nuclear explosion yet this is before the real chaos has even begun.

    No matter how grim the situation gets, some Leave voters just seemingly ignore reality and continue to blame anybody & everybody except the very people who gaslighted them into voting for this disaster. The people that never had a plan, but knew what they were unleashing on the rest of us and knew that all the things voters wanted that they told voters they would get was a complete fantasy.

    Incidentally, many of the very same people who will profit enormously from the destruction of the British economy and even more so if it creates wider ripples which send the whole world economy into recession, sadly, not beyond the realms of possibility given how so many funds & banks from across the globe are heavily invested in the UK property market.
    Jesus H Christ, Ascended, project fear is alive and well in your very capable hands. I suspect that you take tea and crumpets with Gina Miller.
    Last edited by Dave Wilson; February 10th, 2019 at 08:00 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  38. #438  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    With just seven weeks until the UK is due to leave the EU, things haven't improved and if they don't change soon we look like leaving in the most destructive & chaotic way possible. But this is exactly what the Brexiteers appear to want in spite of the consequences.....
    Do you always get up in such a negative mood? While previous attempts at European domination have floundered, Britain with its bulldog spirit has stood firm and overcome!

    You make 'Brexiteers' as you put it, sound like anarchists hell bent on ruining the country. The Brexit blockers such as the Labour Party risk the UK leaving without a deal, which is not what most Leavers want (I feel sure).
    Interesting stuff about Comrade Corbyn in the Tory press today. This is the man who could actually wreck Britain.

    Now, what is your solution to the NI Backstop?
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  39. #439  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    With just seven weeks until the UK is due to leave the EU, things haven't improved and if they don't change soon we look like leaving in the most destructive & chaotic way possible. But this is exactly what the Brexiteers appear to want in spite of the consequences.

    When Brexiteers told referendum voters the UK would be doing trade deals with the rest of the world they forgot to mention a few things. Such as, of all the 168 countries for which the Financial Times (30th May 2017) discovered the EU currently holds 759 international treaties that concern the UK, less than 7 weeks out from the UK's supposed EU exit, the British government would have negotiated new trade agreements with just 2 of them, the Faroe Islands and Chile.

    They sold voters on the notion of this new found British sovereignty that would result from Brexit, referring to unelected Brussels bureaucrats and an absence of democracy in the EU, whilst Nigel Farage collected his salary & expenses as the elected British MEP for UKIP in the European Parliament, all the time secretly knowing that if we left the EU, we would lose all of our existing EU trade agreements and would have no other trading arrangements than to subject our nation to the regulations, rules, authority & control of the WTO from Geneva (which doesn't have a parliament or any elected members), which would result in the largest transfer of sovereignty in British history, with the UK forced to acquiesce to demands from nations around the planet, whilst trying to pass a tariff schedule and be able to reduce the huge automatic default new tariffs slapped on all British export goods & services.

    Brexiteers didn't tell us that Brexit would mean 29% of companies surveyed by the Institute of Directors had either relocated or were looking into relocating abroad because of Brexit. They also failed to mention what the BoE stated could be a 30% crash in real estate values. Neither did they mention how the 4.2 million people, (1.2 million Brits living in the EU & 3 million EU citizens living in the UK) caught up not knowing whether their residency status will be accepted or not, would still be living in limbo nearly 3 years later.

    The Brexiteers sold voters on the notion that Brexit would be a little bit of disruption followed by the country suddenly excelling. In reality, the UK still has no plan, all the illusions are falling apart, people are leaving, companies are leaving and money is leaving the UK. We are now facing years of disruption, followed by getting poorer & poorer relative to where we were heading prior to the referendum. Just to highlight this point, already, prior to even leaving EU, over $1000,000,000,000 has been moved out of the UK. Brexit has cost us more than recovering from a nuclear explosion yet this is before the real chaos has even begun.

    No matter how grim the situation gets, some Leave voters just seemingly ignore reality and continue to blame anybody & everybody except the very people who gaslighted them into voting for this disaster. The people that never had a plan, but knew what they were unleashing on the rest of us and knew that all the things voters wanted that they told voters they would get was a complete fantasy.

    Incidentally, many of the very same people who will profit enormously from the destruction of the British economy and even more so if it creates wider ripples which send the whole world economy into recession, sadly, not beyond the realms of possibility given how so many funds & banks from across the globe are heavily invested in the UK property market.
    Jesus H Christ, Ascended, project fear is alive and well in your very capable hands. I suspect that you take tea and crumpets with Gina Miller.
    Nah, he's just looking out the bloody window, man.
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  40. #440  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Jesus H Christ, Ascended, project fear is alive and well in your very capable hands.
    From the guy who wants us to be VERY, VERY, VERY afraid of immigrants and refugees - that is some funny stuff right there.
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  41. #441  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    With just seven weeks until the UK is due to leave the EU, things haven't improved and if they don't change soon we look like leaving in the most destructive & chaotic way possible. But this is exactly what the Brexiteers appear to want in spite of the consequences.....
    Do you always get up in such a negative mood? While previous attempts at European domination have floundered, Britain with its bulldog spirit has stood firm and overcome!

    You make 'Brexiteers' as you put it, sound like anarchists hell bent on ruining the country. The Brexit blockers such as the Labour Party risk the UK leaving without a deal, which is not what most Leavers want (I feel sure).
    Interesting stuff about Comrade Corbyn in the Tory press today. This is the man who could actually wreck Britain.

    Now, what is your solution to the NI Backstop?
    Simple. The UK stays in the Customs Union (the notion of the UK, a market of 50m, cutting better trade deals than the EU, at 500m, is idiotic) and also in all or most of the Single Market if possible. That will mean the Norway option, basically. It will save our manufacturing and financial services industries. Being a "vassal state" does not seem to bother the Norwegians and in any case it is rubbish. We would be entirely autonomous except in product regulation and external tariff setting, neither of which matters a damn as far as the freedom of the UK to follow its own laws on everything else. When it comes to product regulation, we will follow the EU standard in any case, seeing as they are 50% of our export market: it would be nuts - and very costly - to have different domestic standards from those in France and Germany, just to prove we can be different. Re immigration, we would be free to follow the same rules as other EU countries, in demanding that foreign citizens have a job to come to before they come. That would save the NHS and our farmers who need seasonal workers.

    If that is deemed politically unacceptable, then instead leave NI in the Single Market and Customs Union indefinitely. It is nonsense to suggest that that will take NI out of the UK. NI has never been part of Britain in any case, and has always been special, with its own parliament and its own laws. This would make NI a magnet for business, making it a sort of Hong Kong for the UK, the place for international business to set up.

    If this is controversial, give the N Irish a referendum on the idea first. I bet they would jump at it, seeing as they voted to remain in the first place.
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  42. #442  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Jesus H Christ, Ascended, project fear is alive and well in your very capable hands.
    From the guy who wants us to be VERY, VERY, VERY afraid of immigrants and refugees - that is some funny stuff right there.
    I do not have a clue as to what you mean, you Peace Corp dude.
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  43. #443  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    With just seven weeks until the UK is due to leave the EU, things haven't improved and if they don't change soon we look like leaving in the most destructive & chaotic way possible. But this is exactly what the Brexiteers appear to want in spite of the consequences.....
    Do you always get up in such a negative mood? While previous attempts at European domination have floundered, Britain with its bulldog spirit has stood firm and overcome!

    You make 'Brexiteers' as you put it, sound like anarchists hell bent on ruining the country. The Brexit blockers such as the Labour Party risk the UK leaving without a deal, which is not what most Leavers want (I feel sure).
    Interesting stuff about Comrade Corbyn in the Tory press today. This is the man who could actually wreck Britain.

    Now, what is your solution to the NI Backstop?
    I agree with exchemist, staying in the Customs Union, (Labour's position), would solve many of the problems including the Irish situation.

    Nobody was ever balloted on leaving the Customs Union and given that other non-EU countries are also part of it, it isn't reasonable to state we must also give it up as part of the process of leaving the EU.

    My personal solution to the Backstop Issue is simply to replace it with a clause in the government's EU exit agreement, to rejoin the European Union on our current existing terms if, no solution to the Ireland issue is ready, or if no future relationship has been agreed before the end of the implementation period (December 2020).

    Given that the government have repeatedly claimed the Backstop would never be needed because they would have concluded the future relationship before it was due to come into force, then the same must equally be true for rejoining the Union. However, rejoining the EU would not subject Northern Ireland to foreign control or rule under an agreement we would have no unilateral right to withdraw from.

    Instead, it would restore our seat at the European table and give us back our voice, which even the leading Brexiteers have admitted is preferable to being in the backstop having to take rules from Europe with no say over them and having to pay for the privilege.

    It would also encourage the Brexiteers in government to have to actually come up with a way to make Brexit a success, knowing that if that can't deliver on what they have told voters then the UK would simply rejoin the European Union.

    Finally, it ensures that we can avoid having to rejoin the EU on terms of a new member, which would have meant having to join the Euro and lose our rebate when we inevitably did rejoin the Union.
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  44. #444  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Jesus H Christ, Ascended, project fear is alive and well in your very capable hands.
    From the guy who wants us to be VERY, VERY, VERY afraid of immigrants and refugees - that is some funny stuff right there.
    Bill, this is the double-standard of Leave supporters, they accuse Remainers of project fear yet most of the Leave campaign was rooted in it.

    Fear of the EU, fear of being controlled, fear of bureaucrats, fear of immigration, fear of foreigners, fear of other religions, fear of the migrant crisis, fear of Germany, the list just went on & on.

    They told voters 80 million Turks were about to descend on the UK, that we were being dominated by Germany, controlled from Brussels, that we had to accept foreign criminals, that we being overrun by Muslims. Nigel Farage even launched an infamous 'Breaking Point' poster of showing 1000's of non-white people, he claimed were coming to the UK, which was blatantly aimed at scaring people and appealing to the racist elements within our society.
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  45. #445  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Bill, this is the double-standard of Leave supporters, they accuse Remainers of project fear yet most of the Leave campaign was rooted in it.

    Fear of the EU, fear of being controlled, fear of bureaucrats, fear of immigration, fear of foreigners, fear of other religions, fear of the migrant crisis, fear of Germany, the list just went on & on.
    We have the same sort of nonsense over here. The right wing posts videos of immigrants overrunning a border in Morocco, claims an "invasion" is coming, calls out the military and blames immigrants for every societal ill from AIDS to Ebola to crime to the governmental deficit - then complains that climate change scientists are "alarmist."
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  46. #446  
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    UK is scheduled to leave the EU in 3 weeks and still nobody knows what Brexit will be like.
    After nearly 3 years the public are still in the dark about it.
    The politicians have argued day and night to get nowhere.
    Now it's all gone very quiet - the lull before the storm, no doubt.

    Answer: the UK will probably not be leaving.
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  47. #447  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    UK is scheduled to leave the EU in 3 weeks and still nobody knows what Brexit will be like.
    After nearly 3 years the public are still in the dark about it.
    The politicians have argued day and night to get nowhere.
    Now it's all gone very quiet - the lull before the storm, no doubt.

    Answer: the UK will probably not be leaving.
    Oh yes we will.
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  48. #448  
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    The public are sick and tired of hearing about it and Brexit fatigue (a new malady) has set in. It's likely the date will be pushed back once, then twice.
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  49. #449  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The public are sick and tired of hearing about it and Brexit fatigue (a new malady) has set in. It's likely the date will be pushed back once, then twice.
    Oh no they won't.
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  50. #450  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    UK is scheduled to leave the EU in 3 weeks and still nobody knows what Brexit will be like.
    After nearly 3 years the public are still in the dark about it.
    The politicians have argued day and night to get nowhere.
    Now it's all gone very quiet - the lull before the storm, no doubt.

    Answer: the UK will probably not be leaving.
    Too soon to say. However what seems likely is that we will be told the only extension the EU is willing to give us will be either a short one accompanied by a credible plan from May to seek a cross-party consensus that can pass the House of Commons (I won't hold my breath for that), or a very long extension (the Selmayr option) of 18-24 months, long enough for the political landscape in the UK to change sufficiently to allow some deal or other to get through the House of Commons. Change in the political landscape could entail one or both main party leaders to change, a general election or a new referendum. The EU will be at pains not to interfere in the domestic policy of member states, so all it can do is give a long enough extension that something is likely to change.

    I think a customs union or EEA solution must rank quite likely. Such things were in fact what the Brexshitters proposed at the time of the referendum, before the ERG stated the ratchet going towards ever-more extreme interpretations of what a "true" Brexshit would look like.

    But I think we have passed Peak Mogg now and the momentum will be towards a softer, i.e. less insane, interpretation of Brexshit.

    The Brexshitters promised extra money for the NHS, the easiest trade deal in history with the EU and a glorious future or negotiating free trade deals with the rest of the world. Now we have learned what a pack of lies that was. So far we have deals with Switzerland and the Faroe Islands, while the USA says if we want a deal with them we have expose our farmers- who are responsible for the unique British countryside, something broadly conserved under EU membership - to the destructive blast of competition from the US Agro-industry, working to standards very different from our own. That's real life today: nobody will do us any favours once we are on our own. We will get shafted by all the bigger trade blocs, as Fox is now finding out, to his embarrassment.

    Brexshit advocates such as Charles Moore, writing in the Bozograph, are reduced to telling us how bracing a winter diet of turnips will be for the nation, while the Japanese car industry packs its bags and the finance houses move to Paris, Amsterdam and Dublin, thus destroying Thatcher's handiwork at remodelling the UK economy.
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  51. #451  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    UK is scheduled to leave the EU in 3 weeks and still nobody knows what Brexit will be like.
    After nearly 3 years the public are still in the dark about it.
    The politicians have argued day and night to get nowhere.
    Now it's all gone very quiet - the lull before the storm, no doubt.

    Answer: the UK will probably not be leaving.
    Too soon to say. However what seems likely is that we will be told the only extension the EU is willing to give us will be either a short one accompanied by a credible plan from May to seek a cross-party consensus that can pass the House of Commons (I won't hold my breath for that), or a very long extension (the Selmayr option) of 18-24 months, long enough for the political landscape in the UK to change sufficiently to allow some deal or other to get through the House of Commons. Change in the political landscape could entail one or both main party leaders to change, a general election or a new referendum. The EU will be at pains not to interfere in the domestic policy of member states, so all it can do is give a long enough extension that something is likely to change.

    I think a customs union or EEA solution must rank quite likely. Such things were in fact what the Brexshitters proposed at the time of the referendum, before the ERG stated the ratchet going towards ever-more extreme interpretations of what a "true" Brexshit would look like.

    But I think we have passed Peak Mogg now and the momentum will be towards a softer, i.e. less insane, interpretation of Brexshit.

    The Brexshitters promised extra money for the NHS, the easiest trade deal in history with the EU and a glorious future or negotiating free trade deals with the rest of the world. Now we have learned what a pack of lies that was. So far we have deals with Switzerland and the Faroe Islands, while the USA says if we want a deal with them we have expose our farmers- who are responsible for the unique British countryside, something broadly conserved under EU membership - to the destructive blast of competition from the US Agro-industry, working to standards very different from our own. That's real life today: nobody will do us any favours once we are on our own. We will get shafted by all the bigger trade blocs, as Fox is now finding out, to his embarrassment.

    Brexshit advocates such as Charles Moore, writing in the Bozograph, are reduced to telling us how bracing a winter diet of turnips will be for the nation, while the Japanese car industry packs its bags and the finance houses move to Paris, Amsterdam and Dublin, thus destroying Thatcher's handiwork at remodeling the UK economy.
    A pity the UK will have no hand in reshaping the EU as it does need it ,whilst its disintegration would be a disaster.

    I think it is mainly the crosswinds of globalization that have blown everyone off course. The pace of change is too fast for any settled political approach to keep up.

    I was happy when the globalization baby did for the USSR but now it is coming for us.
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  52. #452  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    UK is scheduled to leave the EU in 3 weeks and still nobody knows what Brexit will be like.
    After nearly 3 years the public are still in the dark about it.
    The politicians have argued day and night to get nowhere.
    Now it's all gone very quiet - the lull before the storm, no doubt.

    Answer: the UK will probably not be leaving.
    Too soon to say. However what seems likely is that we will be told the only extension the EU is willing to give us will be either a short one accompanied by a credible plan from May to seek a cross-party consensus that can pass the House of Commons (I won't hold my breath for that), or a very long extension (the Selmayr option) of 18-24 months, long enough for the political landscape in the UK to change sufficiently to allow some deal or other to get through the House of Commons. Change in the political landscape could entail one or both main party leaders to change, a general election or a new referendum. The EU will be at pains not to interfere in the domestic policy of member states, so all it can do is give a long enough extension that something is likely to change.

    I think a customs union or EEA solution must rank quite likely. Such things were in fact what the Brexshitters proposed at the time of the referendum, before the ERG stated the ratchet going towards ever-more extreme interpretations of what a "true" Brexshit would look like.

    But I think we have passed Peak Mogg now and the momentum will be towards a softer, i.e. less insane, interpretation of Brexshit.

    The Brexshitters promised extra money for the NHS, the easiest trade deal in history with the EU and a glorious future or negotiating free trade deals with the rest of the world. Now we have learned what a pack of lies that was. So far we have deals with Switzerland and the Faroe Islands, while the USA says if we want a deal with them we have expose our farmers- who are responsible for the unique British countryside, something broadly conserved under EU membership - to the destructive blast of competition from the US Agro-industry, working to standards very different from our own. That's real life today: nobody will do us any favours once we are on our own. We will get shafted by all the bigger trade blocs, as Fox is now finding out, to his embarrassment.

    Brexshit advocates such as Charles Moore, writing in the Bozograph, are reduced to telling us how bracing a winter diet of turnips will be for the nation, while the Japanese car industry packs its bags and the finance houses move to Paris, Amsterdam and Dublin, thus destroying Thatcher's handiwork at remodeling the UK economy.
    A pity the UK will have no hand in reshaping the EU as it does need it ,whilst its disintegration would be a disaster.

    I think it is mainly the crosswinds of globalization that have blown everyone off course. The pace of change is too fast for any settled political approach to keep up.

    I was happy when the globalization baby did for the USSR but now it is coming for us.
    Coming for us? We have adapting to it and benefitting from it since the 1970s. Globalisation is not going to stop just because we've decided to try to retreat to a fantasy past of red telephone boxes and imagined imperial glory. The best insurance policy is to be part of big trade bloc with enough muscle not to be pushed around.
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  53. #453  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    A pity the UK will have no hand in reshaping the EU as it does need it ,whilst its disintegration would be a disaster.

    I think it is mainly the crosswinds of globalization that have blown everyone off course. The pace of change is too fast for any settled political approach to keep up.

    I was happy when the globalization baby did for the USSR but now it is coming for us.
    Coming for us? We have been adapting to it and benefitting from it since the 1970s. Globalisation is not going to stop just because we've decided to try to retreat to a fantasy past of red telephone boxes and imagined imperial glory. The best insurance policy is to be part of big trade bloc with enough muscle not to be pushed around.
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  54. #454  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    Coming for us? We have adapting to it and benefitting from it since the 1970s. Globalisation is not going to stop just because we've decided to try to retreat to a fantasy past of red telephone boxes and imagined imperial glory. The best insurance policy is to be part of big trade bloc with enough muscle not to be pushed around.
    There is much more to globalization than economic globalization.

    There is political ,environmental (most importantly) and informational globalization too.

    There is no "insurance policy" (not saying large,neighbouring economic trading blocks are not a good idea -even a no-brainer- for the UK).

    So yes, I think it is "coming for us" (we will have to change to adapt*)

    *maybe I meant "adapt to survive"
    Last edited by geordief; March 11th, 2019 at 08:14 AM.
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  55. #455  
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    Just over 2 weeks to go and still no clearer what it will look like if we leave.
    At least there are words new to our vocabulary.

    Brexit - https://news.sky.com/story/brexits-m...cline-11576816

    Remoaner - person who does not accept the democratic decision of a people's vote.

    Backstop - usually where a ball is kept from going out, given a new meaning here.

    Brexhaustion - fatigue from the first term.
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  56. #456  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Just over 2 weeks to go and still no clearer what it will look like if we leave.
    At least there are words new to our vocabulary.

    Brexit - https://news.sky.com/story/brexits-m...cline-11576816

    Remoaner - person who does not accept the democratic decision of a people's vote.

    Backstop - usually where a ball is kept from going out, given a new meaning here.

    Brexhaustion - fatigue from the first term.
    Two weeks to go until we do not leave, you mean.

    The Brexshitters have blown it.
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  57. #457  
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    [QUOTE=ox;621545]Just over 2 weeks to go and still no clearer what it will look like if we leave.
    At least there are words new to our vocabulary.

    Brexit - https://news.sky.com/story/brexits-m...cline-11576816

    Remoaner - person who does not accept the democratic decision of a people's vote.

    Backstop - usually where a ball is kept from going out, given a new meaning here.

    Brexhaustion - fatigue from the first term.[/QUOTE
    exchemist has a new word too, that word is " brexitshitters ". I can see that in a few years time that the term "brexitshitters " will be a hate crime.
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  58. #458  
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    [QUOTE=Dave Wilson;621557]
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Just over 2 weeks to go and still no clearer what it will look like if we leave.
    At least there are words new to our vocabulary.

    Brexit - https://news.sky.com/story/brexits-m...cline-11576816

    Remoaner - person who does not accept the democratic decision of a people's vote.

    Backstop - usually where a ball is kept from going out, given a new meaning here.

    Brexhaustion - fatigue from the first term.[/QUOTE
    exchemist has a new word too, that word is " brexitshitters ". I can see that in a few years time that the term "brexitshitters " will be a hate crime.
    All the more reason to use it while one can.
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  59. #459  
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    [QUOTE=exchemist;621560]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Just over 2 weeks to go and still no clearer what it will look like if we leave.
    At least there are words new to our vocabulary.

    Brexit - https://news.sky.com/story/brexits-m...cline-11576816

    Remoaner - person who does not accept the democratic decision of a people's vote.

    Backstop - usually where a ball is kept from going out, given a new meaning here.

    Brexhaustion - fatigue from the first term.[/QUOTE
    exchemist has a new word too, that word is " brexitshitters ". I can see that in a few years time that the term "brexitshitters " will be a hate crime.
    All the more reason to use it while one can.
    shocked to the core.
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  60. #460  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    exchemist has a new word too, that word is " brexitshitters ". I can see that in a few years time that the term "brexitshitters " will be a hate crime.
    All the more reason to use it while one can.
    shocked to the core.
    Funny, I didn't have you down as a snowflake.
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  61. #461  
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    Brexit, is really about the UK's demise as a global power player and at its core is Economics and Security. The EU would would head towards a break up if the UK leaves the Union is what I foresee. At the present moment the four most powerful Geo Political Systems in this order are the U.S, Russia, EU and lastly China. A split EU would threaten UK and perhaps revitalize a cold war where Russia might make some territorial moves.

    To take complications out of the deal what does the UK give up by leaving the EU and what does it have to gain if it remains. The EU is an alliance with obvious trade issues. One pivotal trade issue is the tunnel between France and the UK at Calais. He who controls the trade routes retains the power. A side issue example is the South China Sea with all its resources and shipping lanes. In the long run can the UK assert its power by leaving the EU, I don't think so. The best formula for the UK is to create New Trade deals and remain with the EU for Security reasons.

    While the UK wallows indecisively the U.S, Russia and China benefit.

    If the EU was setup to initially copy the U.S. than why not change its overall governmental bodies as well. Where every President of a country acts like a Senator and the EU elects one leader unlike Trump hopefully lol!
    Last edited by Tomeoneil; March 13th, 2019 at 10:26 AM.
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  62. #462  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Brexit, is really about the UK's demise as a global power player
    Nope.
    The final nail in the coffin for that would have been the Suez Crisis in 1956.
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    After listening to UK's Parliament it sounds to me that its government may throw Ireland under the bus. Once again its sounds like starvation for Ireland if agriculture does not meet proper profits to maintain a living in Ireland. This is like Game of Thrones where words thrown in Parliament and decisions could lead to bad results for the Irish. NO deal would force the UK to impose itself over Ireland imposing its power. The black birds circle the corpses of the UK's Parliament. I see so much fear and anxiety here in this Brexit issue for the powers that be. Will it be a tail of two cities again and are heads going to role if the Government gets this wrong?
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  64. #464  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Brexit, is really about the UK's demise as a global power player
    Nope.
    The final nail in the coffin for that would have been the Suez Crisis in 1956.
    Yes in those moments the tide of the direction of the war would have been catastrophic. However in this day the issue of Brexit is momentous and a No Deal can only be ruinous for the UK. The tide of discontent is back with the black domino's falling on the UK so its controllers have to be careful.
    Last edited by Tomeoneil; March 13th, 2019 at 11:15 AM.
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  65. #465  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Yes in those moments the tide of the direction of the war would have been catastrophic.
    What moments?
    More catastrophic than "losing" the war and thereby losing our super power status? Do tell...

    However in this day the issue of Brexit is momentous and a No Deal can only be ruinous for the UK.
    Which is still f*ck all to do with "the UK's demise as a global power player".
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; March 13th, 2019 at 06:33 PM.
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  66. #466  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Brexit, is really about the UK's demise as a global power player and at its core is Economics and Security.
    Good take on this from John Oliver on what's going on with Brexit now:

    "It's like Pompeii all over again - if Pompeii voted for the volcano."
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  67. #467  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Brexit, is really about the UK's demise as a global power player and at its core is Economics and Security.
    Good take on this from John Oliver on what's going on with Brexit now:

    "It's like Pompeii all over again - if Pompeii voted for the volcano."
    Presume this is derived from Mark Rutte's remark that voting against no-deal is like the crew of the Titanic voting for the iceberg to get out of the way, the point being that the only way to stop no-deal is to vote for a deal!

    But it is not over: today we have more votes on exactly that (i.e alternative deals the EU could accept), while Tusk is musing about the possibility of a long extension to allow these alternatives to be worked up.

    The shameful aspect of it all is that May has the interpersonal and persuasive skills of a wasp, while Corbyn and those around him have zero interest in anything other than bringing about revolutionary socialism, so for them economic collapse and civil unrest are grist to the mill, especially if they can blame it on their political opponents. So all the hard work of searching for compromise falls to the Sensibles in each party, people ike Yvette Cooper, Oliver Letwin, Dominic Grieve, Hilary Benn, any one of which I would be delighted to see as PM instead of May or whoever is likely to replace her. Brexit has pushed all the good and experienced people out of front line politics - essentially because it is such a dickheaded idea.

    UK politics now divides on new lines: the Sensibles vs. the Impossiblists. The Impossiblists have made almost all the running up to now, but the tide is at last turning. I hope it is not too late.
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  68. #468  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Yes in those moments the tide of the direction of the war would have been catastrophic.
    What moments?
    More catastrophic than "losing" the war and thereby losing our super power status? Do tell...

    However in this day the issue of Brexit is momentous and a No Deal can only be ruinous for the UK.
    Which is still f*ck all to do with "the UK's demise as a global power player".
    In recent years, the maintenance of these sources of power was strongly dependent on the UK being in the driving seat of a continental political entity. So severely will these foundations of power be eroded by Brexit that their loss will far outweigh any putative economic benefits the UK may achieve by leaving. To put it another way, even if the UK’s economy grew as a result of its decision to leave – an outcome few predict – Brexit would still mean the end of the UK as a major power.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7150066.html

    https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/br...-lose-20180830
    Last edited by Tomeoneil; March 14th, 2019 at 08:48 AM.
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  69. #469  
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    Right - you completely ignore the first part of my post and then you give two links.
    Neither one of which supports your claim that "Brexit, is really about the UK's demise as a global power player".
    Please, next time you post make an effort to be coherent.
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  70. #470  
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    Why Great Britain cannot return to being Isolationist?

    IMHO quite frankly its all about the tunnel from Dover to Calais in regards to any countries profits. Goods and Services flow in Europe with ease. Yet the choke point is at the tunnel and after Brexit this will be the point of contention for the British. Our modern economies are dependent on speed in transporting goods and services. If disputes arise between Britain and Europe the tunnel maybe a leverage point for Europe more so for them then Britain. Simply put the tunnel was made for a Global Economy within the EU and the whole founders of Brexit never will get this one right. IMHO again the British has been absorbed into the EU and returning to a Sovereign Isolationist Country is a backwards step due the modern concepts of economics.

    If I was a dictator of the UK I would return to the EU on my knees with flowers and kiss there butts, because its better than facing an economic implosion some day due to tariffs and trade wars with Europe.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1QI4BY

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    Last edited by Tomeoneil; March 14th, 2019 at 10:07 AM.
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  71. #471  
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    Seems to me that there is a dark force within Parliament that does not want us to leave the EU. It is scheduled to happen in 2 weeks. That is now very unlikely. It looks like being pushed back once, then twice and we don't leave at all.
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  72. #472  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Why Great Britain cannot return to being Isolationist?
    One reason that we couldn't return to being isolationist is that we never were.
    You really are clueless, aren't you?
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  73. #473  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Why Great Britain cannot return to being Isolationist?
    One reason that we couldn't return to being isolationist is that we never were.
    You really are clueless, aren't you?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splendid_isolation
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  74. #474  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Which was not an isolationist stance.

    Wiki: Isolationism is a category of foreign policies institutionalized by leaders who assert that their nations' best interests are best served by keeping the affairs of other countries at a distance. One possible motivation for limiting international involvement is to avoid being drawn into dangerous and otherwise undesirable conflicts. There may also be a perceived benefit from avoiding international trade agreements or other mutual assistance pacts

    Whereas Splendid Isolation was (as it states quite clearly in your link) a TERM used at the time for the practice of avoiding permanent alliances (notably with other Great Powers).
    Britain was still (heavily) involved with other numerous countries (i.e. the entire empire apart from other nations).

    I.e. you're still wrong.
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  75. #475  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Which was not an isolationist stance.

    Wiki: Isolationism is a category of foreign policies institutionalized by leaders who assert that their nations' best interests are best served by keeping the affairs of other countries at a distance. One possible motivation for limiting international involvement is to avoid being drawn into dangerous and otherwise undesirable conflicts. There may also be a perceived benefit from avoiding international trade agreements or other mutual assistance pacts

    Whereas Splendid Isolation was (as it states quite clearly in your link) a TERM used at the time for the practice of avoiding permanent alliances (notably with other Great Powers).
    Britain was still (heavily) involved with other numerous countries (i.e. the entire empire apart from other nations).

    I.e. you're still wrong.
    Brexit is an isolated stance and can only hurt your country @Duck. Your home town steel industry will sad to say be impacted by Brexit and so will all families income in the UK. Hey good thing I'm here to speak up for you who blinded by Brexiteers, because some how the people were duped by some tweaked A.I. algorithms.
    https://www.humberbusiness.com/news/...9-detail/story
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  76. #476  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Brexit is an isolated stance
    No it's not.

    Your home town steel industry will sad to say be impacted by Brexit
    Which has nothing whatsoever to do with your (erroneous) claim...
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  77. #477  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Brexit is an isolated stance
    No it's not.

    Your home town steel industry will sad to say be impacted by Brexit
    Which has nothing whatsoever to do with your (erroneous) claim...
    Isolationism is inherent to islanders whether you like it or not.

    "standing detached from others of its kind," 1740, a rendering into English of French isolé "isolated" (17c.), from Italian isolato, from Latin insulatus "made into an island," from insula "island" (see isle(n.)). English at first used the French word (isole, also isole'd, c. 1750), then after isolate (v.) became an English word, isolated became its past participle.
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/isolated

    However the Euro Tunnel which has made Britain less an Island suits a modern Economy. This is why Britain is fooled by Brexit. Trade wars will erupt and Europe has the scope and Britain is in their sights with economic muscle. For example Britain would be at a siege state if both ends of the tunnel are closed and Europe would go on plodding along relatively unscathed. Yes the tunnel will be unaffected 3 months after no deal, but then what?

    If the UK will be given complete control of the tunnel at both ends, maybe some sort of tiny real estate deal at Calais then yes Brexit will work out for your island.
    Last edited by Tomeoneil; March 15th, 2019 at 10:44 AM.
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  78. #478  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    Isolationism is inherent to islanders whether you like it or not.
    Unmitigated crap.

    "standing detached from others of its kind," 1740, a rendering into English of French isolé "isolated" (17c.), from Italian isolato, from Latin insulatus "made into an island," from insula "island" (see isle(n.)). English at first used the French word (isole, also isole'd, c. 1750), then after isolate (v.) became an English word, isolated became its past participle.
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/isolated[/QUOTE]
    You really should stop posting.
    "Isolated" is not the same as "isolationist". (As shown by the link in a previous post).

    Britain has never held isolationism as a policy.

    For example Britain would be at a siege state if both ends of the tunnel are closed
    You obviously don't know what "siege" means...
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; March 15th, 2019 at 11:01 AM.
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  79. #479  
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    @Duck,

    Is Hawking just as wrong as my statement about isolationism?

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  80. #480  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    @Duck,

    Is Hawking just as wrong as my statement about isolationism?
    Hawking wasn't wrong, but then again he didn't say what you have claimed1.
    Perhaps you're determined to be wilfully ignorant.
    And you still persist in refusing to reply to my actual points/ refutations. Maybe you're just stupid, I'm done with you on this subject, I'll wait for the reports against your posts to come in until you get banned.


    1 Even if he had said exactly what you're saying it doesn't make either of you necessarily correct: Hawking is a physicist - his expertise in that doesn't translate across to an expertise in politics or any other subject.
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  81. #481  
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    sigh,

    I think I will side with Hawking vs. Duck regarding the statement of Isolationism due an education @ Cambridge for Hawking who obviously would have an superior intellect.

    Mods and their power plays about banning. You trashed the post about the explanation of expressing oneself and I do see that your ego is on edge regarding other opinions duck.

    Duck before you vote to ban me you should remember 3 fingers are pointing back @ your own insecurities with others ideas and opinions.

    And by the way I take the liberty due to your ignorance to imply from what I see is that your arguments are moronic. I will concede one idea here regarding isolationism which in your post #474 Brexit is isolationist as I understand the English language which obviously you lack a certain comprehension level for what the broad terms of Brexit indicate for the direction of Britain.

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  82. #482  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeoneil View Post
    sigh,

    I think I will side with Hawking vs. Duck regarding the statement of Isolationism due an education @ Cambridge for Hawking who obviously would have an superior intellect.
    As it happens I agree with Hawking. But, as I pointed out, what he said does not resemble what you claimed in any fashion.

    You trashed the post about the explanation of expressing oneself and I do see that your ego is on edge regarding other opinions duck.
    Because it was entirely unsupported opinion.

    Duck before you vote to ban me
    Go back and read what I wrote: the vote wouldn't be mine.

    And by the way I take the liberty due to your ignorance to imply from what I see is that your arguments are moronic.
    Given that I pointed out, in each case, where and how you were wrong then this claim is - as are most if not all yours - wrong.

    Brexit is isolationist as I understand the English language
    Then you obviously don't understand English. You've claimed that isolated = isolationist and you've also claimed that Britain was, in the past, isolationist. On both occasions you were shown to be wrong.
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  83. #483  
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    ok time for fun sorry for being mean @duck

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  84. #484  
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    more fun:

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  85. #485  
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    Kudos Tomeoneil, loved your vids!

    Given, that we are now supposedly only 10 days out from Brexit, perhaps it doesn't hurt to once again post the link to the Guardian article that shocked the world in uncovering & exposing just what happened during the EU referendum:-

    https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...cked-democracy

    Extract:-

    "This is not just a story about social psychology and data analytics. It has to be understood in terms of a military contractor using military strategies on a civilian population. Us. David Miller, a professor of sociology at Bath University and an authority in psyops and propaganda, says it is “an extraordinary scandal that this should be anywhere near a democracy. It should be clear to voters where information is coming from, and if it’s not transparent or open where it’s coming from, it raises the question of whether we are actually living in a democracy or not.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...emocracy#img-5
    Last edited by Ascended; March 19th, 2019 at 07:21 PM.
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  86. #486  
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    Ascended, how do you sleep at night? Do you remember when David Cameron invited Barrack Obama to the UK in April 2016 ? Barrack Obama told our nation on live television, that we should not leave the European Union, as it was not in our best interests, and if we did leave we would be at the back of the queue for a trade deal with the USA. The referendum on the UK leaving the European Union was held a few moths later in June 2016. Now that is whats called, " how to try and influence a referendum result "
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  87. #487  
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    Trump Junior criticises PM Theresa May for having "ignored advice from my father".
    Adding that "the will of the people is likely to be ignored" because of "elite" politicians in Brussels.

    Now it's nearly certain we won't be leaving, all becomes clear. Most of Parliament and the EU, not wanting the UK to leave have both conspired to overturn Brexit proving that democracy in the UK is now effectively dead for at least a generation.
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  88. #488  
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    Duplicate
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  89. #489  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Ascended, how do you sleep at night? Do you remember when David Cameron invited Barrack Obama to the UK in April 2016 ? Barrack Obama told our nation on live television, that we should not leave the European Union, as it was not in our best interests, and if we did leave we would be at the back of the queue for a trade deal with the USA. The referendum on the UK leaving the European Union was held a few moths later in June 2016. Now that is whats called, " how to try and influence a referendum result "
    What President Obama said was true, there was no manipulation he said what he thought when asked to do so.

    What the Leave campaign did was launch a psychological warfare campaign of disinformation against the British public by targeting individual people with specific propaganda to manipulate their emotions to make them feel angry towards the EU or that supporting Leave was somehow patriotic.

    The Leave campaign told people who were scared of change that we had to leave the EU to prevent immigration from changing our country, whilst simultaneously claiming that all the problems of austerity were actually caused by the EU and we would see fundamental change if we left the EU, targeted at those people who desperate for change.

    The nervous and fearful they told we were about to be overrun 80 million Turks and created diagrams & maps highlighting Iraq next door to Turkey, even though Turkey isn't a member of the EU, not likely to be for about 50 years and would have to have major changes first, also as member of the EU Britain has a right of veto. So it was again just blatant fear mongering over things that aren't true.

    They told everybody we'd have £350 million a week to extra to spend on the NHS, even though our total EU contribution has a rebate and is actually around £200 to £220 million a week, plus we get all sorts of subsidies & funds that if we left the EU the government would then have to fund, not to mention all of the work the EU actually does on our behalf which would then cost the government a fortune trying to get in talented & experienced new staff to do this work & the setting up of entire new departments etc..

    The Leave campaign told the public they would better off financially, yet the North of England is set to be hit an 11% fall in growth according to the governments own figures with being substantially higher according to research by private institutions & companies.

    They told us we'd be taking back control, yet we are having to drop our environmental & food standards.

    The Backstop, that insurance measure included in the exit agreement with the EU to prevent us making changes that would cause the need for a hard border or violate the terms of the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement, does this look like taking back control over our borders?

    Or full participation in the WTO, where the WTO get to decide what is allowed to pass our borders and not us.

    The Leave campaign led people to believe that Brexit would be the new Nirvana, guess they left out the whole part about us having to plan for it as a Civil emergency.
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  90. #490  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Trump Junior criticises PM Theresa May for having "ignored advice from my father".
    Adding that "the will of the people is likely to be ignored" because of "elite" politicians in Brussels.

    Now it's nearly certain we won't be leaving, all becomes clear. Most of Parliament and the EU, not wanting the UK to leave have both conspired to overturn Brexit proving that democracy in the UK is now effectively dead for at least a generation.
    Is this a person you believe has credibility or are actually expecting us to take seriously, if so why?
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  91. #491  
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    The Trumps are entitled to an opinion and you have to take them seriously, Trump Senior the most powerful person on the planet.
    The chances now of the UK leaving I'd put at less than 20%. Why has it taken so long? We should have left within 12 months of the referendum.
    Westminster and Brussels know that the longer it can be delayed the more likely it never happens.
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  92. #492  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The Trumps are entitled to an opinion and you have to take them seriously, Trump Senior the most powerful person on the planet.
    The chances now of the UK leaving I'd put at less than 20%. Why has it taken so long? We should have left within 12 months of the referendum.
    Westminster and Brussels know that the longer it can be delayed the more likely it never happens.
    The answer to your question is that it has taken that long for theBrexsh1tters to realise that "having your cake and eating it", Bozo-style, was not something the EU would agree to. Idiots like David Davis, who was in charge of the process for much of the time, always said the EU would give in at the last minute and refused to take their stated position at face value. So here we are.

    The basic error was to think that for the EU it would all be about trade, rather than about the integrity of the system of treaties that enables the EU to work as it does. People like Ivan Rogers, our former ambassador to the EU, have been explaining this ever since he was forced out, but nobody listened. "We've had enough of experts" was the cry.

    The Brexsh1tters in the country at large have also failed to understand how much the functioning of the entire UK economy depends on what the EU provides. "Just leaving", as some simple-minded folk have demanded, ignores what would happen if we did. Our planes would be unable to fly, we would have little fresh food or adequate medicines and our trade with the whole world, not just the EU, would stop overnight, because all our trade is carried on under the terms of trade agreements reached on our behalf by the EU. This has been the case for over 30 years now.

    This exposes the myth of "sovereignty". Every time a country enters an agreement - of any sort- with another one, "sovereignty" is given up because one agrees to do things a certain way in exchange for some benefits from the other party. With the EU, this all comes as a package. This saves us a lot of time and effort and we get better deals because the EU can negotiate with the big boys using the muscle of a market of 500m people, not just the 60m that the UK represents. If we leave, we have to renegotiate all these bits individually by ourselves, from a weaker position. It will take years and we will be worse off at the end of it.
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  93. #493  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Our planes would be unable to fly, we would have little fresh food or adequate medicines and our trade with the whole world, not just the EU, would stop overnight, because all our trade is carried on under the terms of trade agreements reached on our behalf by the EU. This has been the case for over 30 years now.
    Don't forget the lights. The lights will go out.
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  94. #494  
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    After over 1000 days of the Brexit vote, we still don't know. Are we leaving again next week?
    Brexit progress update? There is none.
    Is anyone still awake?

    https://www.timeanddate.com/countdow...1&font=cursive
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  95. #495  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    After over 1000 days of the Brexit vote, we still don't know. Are we leaving again next week?
    Brexit progress update? There is none.
    Is anyone still awake?

    https://www.timeanddate.com/countdow...1&font=cursive
    My guess is May will go to the EU summit on 10th with nothing to show for her talks with Labour. (To get Labour on board she would need to make a big concession, i.e. offer Labour a customs union at least, and I do not believe she has the brains or political nous to have grasped this. She is useless at understanding the position of the other side in a negotiation and she will not signal her intentions clearly. She is already screwing it up.)

    My guess is she will go to the EU, feebly claim she is "in talks" and, on the basis of that, stupidly ask for a short extension, ending just before the EU elections in order to give her as long as possible to procrastinate without having to field candidates in the EU elections. The EU has already made clear this would be unacceptable as the last thing they want is a UK crash-out on the eve of their own elections. So they will refuse.

    But they are very anxious to maintain the best possible long term relations with the UK, the current crop of political incompetents notwithstanding, so they will be as polite, respectful and understanding as they possibly can - just as they have been throughout. What they may do, as so often before after failing to elicit the glimmerings of any sort of strategy or plan from May, is to take the initiative themselves and offer her a long extension, say 18 months, with participation in the EU elections. The aim of this would be to allow UK politics time to to change, to something that can make a decision, finally. (May will resign anyway, there could be an election, a coalition government or a 2nd referendum, etc etc.)

    That will throw the choice back on the UK, as follows:-
    1) crash out
    2) revoke the Article 50 declaration
    3) accept the long extension

    And we will have 48hrs to make our choice, i.e. decide by 12th.

    Parliament has already voted, twice, against the first option. If May were to try to do that, she would face an immediate vote of no confidence and the government would fall. The Tories would destroy themselves in the ensuing general election campaign and we would have a Corbyn government or a Labour/SNP coalition. I do not believe she would go for that.

    So I think we may be in for the long extension, unless Macron and Rutte are so pissed off with the UK that they would rather we crash out, to allow the "English Nationalists", as Macron calls them, to discover what it is like.

    But if, in spite of all this we do crash out at the end of next week, what will be funny is when the subject of any sort of trade deal with the EU is subsequently broached, whether it be medicines, or animal product exports or whatever. The EU will demand, before any talks on trade can start, that the UK settle the exit bill........ and enter the Irish backstop arrangement! So the crash-out will not have avoided any of the issues. I can't wait to see the look of incredulity across Mark Francois's fat face.
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  96. #496  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    But if, in spite of all this we do crash out at the end of next week, what will be funny is when the subject of any sort of trade deal with the EU is subsequently broached, whether it be medicines, or animal product exports or whatever. The EU will demand, before any talks on trade can start, that the UK settle the exit bill........ and enter the Irish backstop arrangement! So the crash-out will not have avoided any of the issues. I can't wait to see the look of incredulity across Mark Francois's fat face.
    Just your analysis or did you hear that suggested somewhere?

    It would be satisfying (although I shouldn't say that)

    I can't get over how some people seem to favour skimping on bills on departure. (doing a collective runner is how it seems to me)
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  97. #497  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    But if, in spite of all this we do crash out at the end of next week, what will be funny is when the subject of any sort of trade deal with the EU is subsequently broached, whether it be medicines, or animal product exports or whatever. The EU will demand, before any talks on trade can start, that the UK settle the exit bill........ and enter the Irish backstop arrangement! So the crash-out will not have avoided any of the issues. I can't wait to see the look of incredulity across Mark Francois's fat face.
    Just your analysis or did you hear that suggested somewhere?

    It would be satisfying (although I shouldn't say that)

    I can't get over how some people seem to favour skimping on bills on departure. (doing a collective runner is how it seems to me)
    Juncker said as much today, to the EU Parliament, reported in the Grauniad and Indie. Ivan Rogers has been pointing out the same for months.

    No deal is the last unicorn standing. It solves nothing. It simply means that, instead of a package deal agreed quickly, we will spend years nit-pickingly doing deals on bits and pieces here and there. But before the EU agrees to anything on any of them, the Irish border, the money and reciprocal citizen's rights will need to be settled. The EU (and Varadkar) will have us by the balls.
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  98. #498  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The Trumps are entitled to an opinion and you have to take them seriously, Trump Senior the most powerful person on the planet.
    The chances now of the UK leaving I'd put at less than 20%. Why has it taken so long? We should have left within 12 months of the referendum.
    Westminster and Brussels know that the longer it can be delayed the more likely it never happens.
    The answer to your question is that it has taken that long for theBrexsh1tters to realise that "having your cake and eating it", Bozo-style, was not something the EU would agree to. Idiots like David Davis, who was in charge of the process for much of the time, always said the EU would give in at the last minute and refused to take their stated position at face value. So here we are.

    The basic error was to think that for the EU it would all be about trade, rather than about the integrity of the system of treaties that enables the EU to work as it does. People like Ivan Rogers, our former ambassador to the EU, have been explaining this ever since he was forced out, but nobody listened. "We've had enough of experts" was the cry.

    The Brexsh1tters in the country at large have also failed to understand how much the functioning of the entire UK economy depends on what the EU provides. "Just leaving", as some simple-minded folk have demanded, ignores what would happen if we did. Our planes would be unable to fly, we would have little fresh food or adequate medicines and our trade with the whole world, not just the EU, would stop overnight, because all our trade is carried on under the terms of trade agreements reached on our behalf by the EU. This has been the case for over 30 years now.

    This exposes the myth of "sovereignty". Every time a country enters an agreement - of any sort- with another one, "sovereignty" is given up because one agrees to do things a certain way in exchange for some benefits from the other party. With the EU, this all comes as a package. This saves us a lot of time and effort and we get better deals because the EU can negotiate with the big boys using the muscle of a market of 500m people, not just the 60m that the UK represents. If we leave, we have to renegotiate all these bits individually by ourselves, from a weaker position. It will take years and we will be worse off at the end of it.
    I am beginning to think that the exchemist, is a well paid columnist for the Guardian news paper. Even worse, the exchemist could be a rogue agent, working for Project Fear, who has lost contact with his controller. Chillax dude.
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  99. #499  
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    To further Brexhaustion we now have Flextension, which is most likely to be taken up by the 75% Remoaners in Westminster, which includes all the party leaders. Chances of Brexit are now close to zero.

    Democracy has been defeated. We are about as democratic a nation now as Iran. The United States of Europe will continue take our money to spend on junk projects in eastern Europe such as tunnels through mountains and airports that are hardly used, the EU will continue to make our laws, send us immigrants we don't need to change the demographic of our nation. We cannot now be a free nation. We are defeated.
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  100. #500  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    To further Brexhaustion we now have Flextension, which is most likely to be taken up by the 75% Remoaners in Westminster, which includes all the party leaders. Chances of Brexit are now close to zero.

    Democracy has been defeated. We are about as democratic a nation now as Iran. The United States of Europe will continue take our money to spend on junk projects in eastern Europe such as tunnels through mountains and airports that are hardly used, the EU will continue to make our laws, send us immigrants we don't need to change the demographic of our nation. We cannot now be a free nation. We are defeated.
    Do not be such a pessimist, our Nigel will sort things out.
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