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Thread: Brexit Progress Update

  1. #301  
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    Asylum seekers should seek asylum in the first country they arrive. They seldom do, or they are welcomed into a place like Sweden that then decides it is only a reception centre. So even they don't always want them. Then they hear about Britain and how they will be given housing, money and other benefits.
    Then I read today there are 320,000 homeless people in Britain and how the young are struggling to get on the property ladder. For them the English dream of home ownership is gone. If you are happy with this, it's your call.
    Stay in the EU and find in 10 years time other countries like Turkey join and we'll have millions more in this small country. But fewer I suspect in Wales, Scotland and NI who want to preserve their identity.
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  2. #302  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Asylum seekers should seek asylum in the first country they arrive. They seldom do, or they are welcomed into a place like Sweden that then decides it is only a reception centre. So even they don't always want them. Then they hear about Britain and how they will be given housing, money and other benefits.
    Then I read today there are 320,000 homeless people in Britain and how the young are struggling to get on the property ladder. For them the English dream of home ownership is gone. If you are happy with this, it's your call.
    Stay in the EU and find in 10 years time other countries like Turkey join and we'll have millions more in this small country. But fewer I suspect in Wales, Scotland and NI who want to preserve their identity.
    You are now completely off your trolley. Asylum-seeking in Sweden IS NOT responsible for the homelessness problem in the UK.
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  3. #303  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    You are now completely off your trolley. Asylum-seeking in Sweden IS NOT responsible for the homelessness problem in the UK.
    Didn't say it was, but when I hear that Sweden welcomes all Syrians but then realises it can't take them all, it redefines itself as a reception centre. That's all.
    It probably explains why my local high street now has many Turkish barbers and restaurants when not so long ago there were none. Sweden has also welcomed large numbers of Turks when Turkey isn't even the the EU.
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  4. #304  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    You are now completely off your trolley. Asylum-seeking in Sweden IS NOT responsible for the homelessness problem in the UK.
    Didn't say it was, but when I hear that Sweden welcomes all Syrians but then realises it can't take them all, it redefines itself as a reception centre. That's all.
    It probably explains why my local high street now has many Turkish barbers and restaurants when not so long ago there were none. Sweden has also welcomed large numbers of Turks when Turkey isn't even the the EU.
    You are now quite deranged. Syria and Turkey are different places and the UK is able to refuse entry to anyone from either country. The numbers of Turks in the UK has fcuk-all to do with the EU - and even less to do with the number of Syrians in Sweden, for Christ's sake!
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  5. #305  
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    Don't know why you have to keep quoting all what I've said. If a Syrian or Turk is given citizenship in any EU country they should be free to move to another member state and find work. I've worked with plenty.
    There is no need for personal abuse, and what's Jesus to do with this?
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  6. #306  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Don't know why you have to keep quoting all what I've said. If a Syrian or Turk is given citizenship in any EU country they should be free to move to another member state and find work. I've worked with plenty.
    There is no need for personal abuse, and what's Jesus to do with this?
    Because you keep jumping from one issue to another, throwing out random falsehoods as you go. You can expect abuse if you can't get a grip and produce a coherent argument that sticks to the issue and relies on fact rather than Yaxley-Lennonesque rumour.
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  7. #307  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Yaxley-Lennonesque rumour.
    WHAT???

    I'm guessing that you're one of those people who effectively never left school, needs to get his way and routinely spouts out juvenile name calling.

    Back to the subject. Dot all the i's and cross all the t's and we have an agreement. Somehow I think this could go on for a long time yet.
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  8. #308  
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    The latest Brexit absurdity is the hoo-ha over fishing. The fishermen want control of UK waters back, but don't seem to appreciate they rely on sales to the continent for well over half their catch. For plaice, all the filleting and packaging is done at Dutch ports, where they have the machinery to serve both UK and continental markets. The Dutch plants supply Marks and Spencer for instance. So if we take back control of the fishing grounds, the EU will slap a tariff or a quota on fish imported from the UK, wrecking the market for the UK fishermen until someone builds more processing plants in the UK, a waste of money and incapable of the economies of scale that consumers benefit from today with an integrated Anglo-Dutch operation.

    So prices will go up and fishermen will lose jobs. Brilliant! But well worth it for Jacob Rees-Mogg to be able to claim, in plummy tones, that we have our sovereignty back.
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  9. #309  
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    Told you we need a Trump (Brexit is a good deal for the EU).
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  10. #310  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Told you we need a Trump (Brexit is a good deal for the EU).
    And you seriously think Trump has any idea, at all, of what is in May's deal?

    It's not a great deal, but the alternatives are what? Either stay in or exit with no deal.

    If we do the latter we seriously damage our manufacturing industry, at a minimum. And if we don't pay up the £39 bn, we get no help from the EU after we leave, so our planes to the EU will be grounded, the supermarkets will be out of fresh produce, and a host of other things will cease to function properly. We won't even be able to drive in the EU without getting an international driving licence.

    The fuss is because at last the Brexshitters are starting to realise what reality looks like, when you try to reverse 40years of integration with a market ten times the size of your own. But moaning about the deal on offer will not magically create a new one. This is all there is going to be. Get used to it.
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  11. #311  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Told you we need a Trump (Brexit is a good deal for the EU).
    Sounds like you deserve a Trump.
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  12. #312  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Told you we need a Trump (Brexit is a good deal for the EU).
    Sounds like you deserve a Trump.
    Harsh, harsh! But fair.

    Bozo (the clown Johnson) is trying to model himself on Trump in fact, with simple rabble-rousing nationalistic nonsense and dogwhistle anti-muslim stuff. Thankfully, Bozo is a busted flush however.

    The UK at the moment is like a ship heading slowly for the rocks, while a pitched battle takes place on the bridge as to whether to turn to port, to starboard, or to reverse engines. Nobody knows what the outcome will be, but if I were forced to place a bet, it would be for hitting the rocks.
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  13. #313  
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    It was once proposed before we joined the United States of Europe, we'd be better off joining the United States of America.
    That has now proved to be correct.
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  14. #314  
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    Lines are drawn. Carneymageddon on one side and the Mugwump (BJ) and the Moggwump (WRM) on the other.
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  15. #315  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Lines are drawn. Carneymageddon on one side and the Mugwump (BJ) and the Moggwump (WRM) on the other.
    Yes. The treasury analysis, with which the Bank of England agrees, is broadly supported by many independent economists. According to this, all Brexit options lead to a slower growth rate than remaining in the EU, but scenarios such as May's plan manage to preserve much more growth than no-deal exit.

    The Moggatollah and the Daily Bozograph have seized on the Bank's worst case scenario, in order to ridicule the analysis as alarmist by misrepresenting the worst case as if it were a prediction of the most likely result. Part of the Bank's job is to prepare contingency plans to deal with the worst case, of course. (Brexshitters like to point out that the Bank's worst case scenario for the result of the 2106 Leave vote did not come to pass. Well, that is because the Bank got its worst case contingency plan right, executed it, and stopped the rot.)

    What is interesting about the treasury analysis is that it factors in all the benefits from the trade deals with non-EU countries that the Brexshitters claim can be done, once the UK is out of the EU, and they make practically no difference at all to the outcomes.

    The Moggatollah has resorted to cheap ad-hominems against the Bank's Governor, describing him as as a "second tier Canadian politician". Which rather invites the listener to consider what description, precisely, would be apt for Rees-Mogg..........






    , pointing out that the Banks worst case forecast for consequences of the referendumdid not come to pass. .
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  16. #316  
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    I really do not see what all the fuss is about. Brexit was always going to be a hard slog between the Brexiteers and the Remainers in the UK, and the Liberal Elite that rule the EUSSR.
    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9...k-vs-the-eussr
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  17. #317  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    I really do not see what all the fuss is about. Brexit was always going to be a hard slog between the Brexiteers and the Remainers in the UK
    The "fuss" is about the future of the UK's economy and whether or not we may restart terrorism in Ireland.

    Both fairly important issues, I am sure you will agree.
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  18. #318  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    It was once proposed before we joined the United States of Europe, we'd be better off joining the United States of America.
    That has now proved to be correct.
    Given that you can't even figure out how to leave the EU - I don't think so. (Anyway, you had your chance to be part of the US.)
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  19. #319  
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    The US were once part of US. We didn't join the EU, rather the Common Market which then had 6 states. UK, Ireland and Denmark made it 9. Spain, Portugal and Greece made it 12. So far, so good. There was no mass immigration from those countries into the UK.
    Now there are 28, and at least 3 million Poles and Romanians poured into the UK putting massive pressure on education, healthcare and housing, and bringing crime with them too. Near to me an old lady was mugged by Eastern Europeans.
    Young people in general cannot afford a home unless they get help from parents.
    Who knows who could join next. Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Ukraine, Moldova, Morocco, Central African Republic, Argentina?
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  20. #320  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The US were once part of US. We didn't join the EU, rather the Common Market which then had 6 states. UK, Ireland and Denmark made it 9. Spain, Portugal and Greece made it 12. So far, so good. There was no mass immigration from those countries into the UK.
    Now there are 28, and at least 3 million Poles and Romanians poured into the UK putting massive pressure on education, healthcare and housing, and bringing crime with them too. Near to me an old lady was mugged by Eastern Europeans.
    Young people in general cannot afford a home unless they get help from parents.
    Who knows who could join next. Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Ukraine, Moldova, Morocco, Central African Republic, Argentina?
    I see you have given up on rational thought, again.
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  21. #321  
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    Not blaming the Remainers but to all those people who want to overturn the biggest democratic decision in UK history, North Korea might be a good destination.
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  22. #322  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Not blaming the Remainers but to all those people who want to overturn the biggest democratic decision in UK history, North Korea might be a good destination.
    I know! It's great, isn't it? Dominic Grieve for PM!
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  23. #323  
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    The 17.4 million who voted to leave and didn't understand what they were doing now have a theme tune.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9QEAtcz3o8
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  24. #324  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The US were once part of US.
    The US was once part of Great Britain. At least until King George decided to be a tad unreasonable.
    Near to me an old lady was mugged by Eastern Europeans.
    And Steve Wright, a good old English guy, murdered five women.
    Young people in general cannot afford a home unless they get help from parents.
    Which is the sign of a good economy - rising real estate prices.
    Who knows who could join next. Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Ukraine, Moldova, Morocco, Central African Republic . . .
    Gasp! BLACK PEOPLE? O the horror. Perhaps we could set aside a part of the UK for all the bigots, so they need never see those horrible people?

    Meanwhile . . . .
    =================
    Reversal of Brexit more likely after May defeats, analysis finds
    about 4 hours ago

    US investment bank JPMorgan said on Wednesday the chances of Britain calling off its divorce from the European Union had increased after a string of humiliating parliamentary defeats for prime minister Theresa May cast new doubt over her plan to quit the union and sent sterling higher.


    The UK’s pro-Brexit trade minister Liam Fox also said it was now possible that Brexit would not happen. There was a real danger that parliament would try to “steal” Brexit from the British people, Mr Fox told a parliamentary committee on Wednesday.


    In one of the biggest shifts in perceptions since the shock 2016 vote to exit the EU, JPMorgan raised the probability of Britain ultimately staying in to 40 per cent from 20 per cent.
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  25. #325  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    And Steve Wright, a good old English guy, murdered five women.
    Assume you mean the Suffolk strangler, and not that the man who takes over the airwaves in the afternoon with his golden oldie junk pop music. Let me remind you that gun crime is rare in this country and St Louis is the homicide capital of the US.

    Gasp! BLACK PEOPLE? O the horror. Perhaps we could set aside a part of the UK for all the bigots, so they need never see those horrible people?
    That is a racist remark.

    The UK’s pro-Brexit trade minister Liam Fox also said it was now possible that Brexit would not happen. There was a real danger that parliament would try to “steal” Brexit from the British people, Mr Fox told a parliamentary committee on Wednesday.
    Then Parliament will lose its credibility and it may result in civil disorder and a loss of confidence in democracy.
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  26. #326  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Assume you mean the Suffolk strangler, and not that the man who takes over the airwaves in the afternoon with his golden oldie junk pop music. Let me remind you that gun crime is rare in this country and St Louis is the homicide capital of the US.
    Yep. And both here and in the UK, immigrants are less likely to participate in violent crime than the average citizen.
    That is a racist remark.
    I will have to include [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags in the future so it's clearer to you.
    Then Parliament will lose its credibility and it may result in civil disorder and a loss of confidence in democracy.
    Perhaps. But I am sure the UK can deal with a few terrorists.

    Meanwhile, looks like there's another problem for Brexit. The legal memo that May tried to hide contained the advice that the backstop agreement may make it impossible to legally implement Brexit. Nigel Dodds - "The legal advice makes clear that the current drafting of the backstop does not provide for a mechanism that is likely to enable the UK lawfully to exit."
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  27. #327  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Assume you mean the Suffolk strangler, and not that the man who takes over the airwaves in the afternoon with his golden oldie junk pop music. Let me remind you that gun crime is rare in this country and St Louis is the homicide capital of the US.
    Yep. And both here and in the UK, immigrants are less likely to participate in violent crime than the average citizen.
    That is a racist remark.
    I will have to include [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags in the future so it's clearer to you.
    Then Parliament will lose its credibility and it may result in civil disorder and a loss of confidence in democracy.
    Perhaps. But I am sure the UK can deal with a few terrorists.

    Meanwhile, looks like there's another problem for Brexit. The legal memo that May tried to hide contained the advice that the backstop agreement may make it impossible to legally implement Brexit. Nigel Dodds - "The legal advice makes clear that the current drafting of the backstop does not provide for a mechanism that is likely to enable the UK lawfully to exit."
    Be careful with this. Nigel Dodds is a member of the Daieoupeaigh and as such is highly likely to be as thick as pigsh1t, not to mention having an axe to grind.

    May did not try to "hide" the advice. She was following universal government precedent until now, by which legal advice to Cabinet is given client confidentiality, so that the advice given can be untainted by political window-dressing. In fact there are NO surprises in the legal advice - it merely states what everybody knew all along about this backstop deal. The hoo-ha about it is pure political theatre. Some parties want to quote-mine the advice and then pretend they didn't know what the implications were until they read these supposedly shocking legal revelations.

    As for the notion that there is no way to implement the backstop legally, I'd like to see what the argument is for that. But Dodds will not have got that from the legal advice to Cabinet, or it would be all over the front pages, which it isn't. He's probably made it up after talking some Belfast high street solicitor. Nao Poperaigh! In fact, the implementation of the backstop would be done via an Act of Parliament, which if properly drafted can override whatever previous existing legal provisions, if any, might conflict with it.
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  28. #328  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Assume you mean the Suffolk strangler, and not that the man who takes over the airwaves in the afternoon with his golden oldie junk pop music. Let me remind you that gun crime is rare in this country and St Louis is the homicide capital of the US.
    Yep. And both here and in the UK, immigrants are less likely to participate in violent crime than the average citizen.
    That is a racist remark.
    I will have to include [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags in the future so it's clearer to you.
    Then Parliament will lose its credibility and it may result in civil disorder and a loss of confidence in democracy.
    Perhaps. But I am sure the UK can deal with a few terrorists.

    Meanwhile, looks like there's another problem for Brexit. The legal memo that May tried to hide contained the advice that the backstop agreement may make it impossible to legally implement Brexit. Nigel Dodds - "The legal advice makes clear that the current drafting of the backstop does not provide for a mechanism that is likely to enable the UK lawfully to exit."
    Be careful with this. Nigel Dodds is a member of the Daieoupeaigh and as such is highly likely to be as thick as pigsh1t, not to mention having an axe to grind.

    May did not try to "hide" the advice. She was following universal government precedent until now, by which legal advice to Cabinet is given client confidentiality, so that the advice given can be untainted by political window-dressing. In fact there are NO surprises in the legal advice - it merely states what everybody knew all along about this backstop deal. The hoo-ha about it is pure political theatre. Some parties want to quote-mine the advice and then pretend they didn't know what the implications were until they read these supposedly shocking legal revelations.

    As for the notion that there is no way to implement the backstop legally, I'd like to see what the argument is for that. But Dodds will not have got that from the legal advice to Cabinet, or it would be all over the front pages, which it isn't. He's probably made it up after talking some Belfast high street solicitor. Nao Poperaigh! In fact, the implementation of the backstop would be done via an Act of Parliament, which if properly drafted can override whatever previous existing legal provisions, if any, might conflict with it.
    Actually, reading a bit more about this, all Dodds is saying is that there is no legal way the UK can leave the backstop arrangement....... unilaterally.

    But that has always been the whole point of it: if either party could leave it unilaterally, without putting in place an alternative cross-border regime acceptable to the other, then quite obviously it would not be a backstop. That's what "backstop" means, for Christ's sake!

    This is a perfect illustration of what I mean about this hoo-ha being all about political theatre, rather than any revelation of disguised legal consequences.
    Last edited by exchemist; December 6th, 2018 at 05:05 AM.
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  29. #329  
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    I wonder if enough people in England are having second thoughts about Brexit?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    I wonder if enough people in England are having second thoughts about Brexit?
    It seems from opinion surveys that attitudes have largely become ingrained. However what may be different if we get a second referendum is that young people, who did not bother to vote much last time, may be more engaged. There has been quite a lot of resentment expressed that the "gammons*" have wrecked their futures. Also, two years have passed, and quite a lot of "gammons" have died off in the meantime.

    * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gammon
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    i was in Belgium in the past week, and guess how often Brexit came upon their local news ? exactly zero, zilch, nada times !

    goes to show + put in perspective how important (or not) britainís exit from the EU is being perceived by the ordinary citizenry

    instead, the main news item was the division in the Belgian government over the signing of the UN guidelines on migration in Marrakesh, something that does not appear on the British news horizon
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  32. #332  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR View Post
    i was in Belgium in the past week, and guess how often Brexit came upon their local news ? exactly zero, zilch, nada times !

    goes to show + put in perspective how important (or not) britain’s exit from the EU is being perceived by the ordinary citizenry

    instead, the main news item was the division in the Belgian government over the signing of the UN guidelines on migration in Marrakesh, something that does not appear on the British news horizon
    Which goes to show that EU nations will not be falling over themselves to give the UK an even better deal than the one they are offering May at the moment, which from their viewpoint offers considerable concessions.

    Our political class, and indeed a large part of the nation, still suffers from delusions of grandeur. We are a country of 50m, dealing with a bloc of 500m. We are the junior partners whether we like it or not. It's no good declaiming that the deal is "unacceptable" in the House of Commons, if that is the best deal you are going to get.

    This is not "bullying" by the EU, it is just a fact of life that they care less about our constant claims for special treatment than we seem to think they ought to.
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  33. #333  
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    Wasn't in Belgium, but yesterday I was walking past the Palace of Westminster, and it was also quiet.
    Except that a seemingly friendly policeman stopped me on the Embankment and asked me a few questions. Was I from London? Where did I come from? Was I just down for the day? What had I been doing? What was my work? All with a smile, but I think they are starting to get a bit nervous ahead of the big one next week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Wasn't in Belgium, but yesterday I was walking past the Palace of Westminster, and it was also quiet.
    Except that a seemingly friendly policeman stopped me on the Embankment and asked me a few questions. Was I from London? Where did I come from? Was I just down for the day? What had I been doing? What was my work? All with a smile, but I think they are starting to get a bit nervous ahead of the big one next week.
    Did he say why he was asking these questions?
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    Would this wording be acceptable as a form of a (pre) second referendum?

    "Do you agree that a second referendum on the UK's membership of the EU should be held ,with the wording to be framed by the Houses of Parliament?"
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  36. #336  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Did he say why he was asking these questions?
    That they never mention. It wasn't aggressive and he was simply doing his job. Meanwhile over in Paris... That might give you a clue.
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  37. #337  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Would this wording be acceptable as a form of a (pre) second referendum?

    "Do you agree that a second referendum on the UK's membership of the EU should be held ,with the wording to be framed by the Houses of Parliament?"
    If there is another referendum that would beget another, and another if one side still doesn't like it. The UK voted to leave and that's all, and now the decisions are in the hands of elected politicians.

    I know democracy is a very bad form of government, but until someone comes up with something better we have to abide by it.
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    If the answer to "my " wording is "no" then that rules out another referendum until Brexit is settled in the medium term (nothing prevents a party campaigning to rejoin at a later stage)

    If the answer is "yes" then another referendum is actually permitted as might or might not seem appropriate to Parliament.
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  39. #339  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    If the answer to "my " wording is "no" then that rules out another referendum until Brexit is settled in the medium term (nothing prevents a party campaigning to rejoin at a later stage)

    If the answer is "yes" then another referendum is actually permitted as might or might not seem appropriate to Parliament.
    I really don't think that asking the country, by referendum, if they want a referendum, is going to be terrifically popular. But a referendum seems to be on the cards, certainly.

    Phrasing the question would be very hard, however. Strictly speaking the 3 options we know are on offer are Remain, No deal crashout or May's proposal. Though I suppose another deal that met the EU's criteria for the NI border and respect for the 4 freedoms could be possible, such as Norway plus.

    I'm actually coming to the conclusion that we need a general election, in hope of electing a government capable of taking a decision, with sufficient HoC majority to implement it. I don't think throwing the issue back to the people, especially when it is highly technical and is not a binary choice, a is very mature way of governing.

    That risks a Marx Bros government of course, which might be fairly disastrous. But there do not seem to be any good options at this point. The country is fractured down the middle and our political parties likewise - hence the logjam.
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  40. #340  
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    Speechless.
    No promised vote.
    What's going on?
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  41. #341  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Speechless.
    No promised vote.
    What's going on?
    May is going to ask the EU if they can do anything to make the Impossiblists and Daioupaeigh happier with her agreement. The EU won't be able to do that, so all this does is buy yet more time for, she hopes, something to turn up or maybe for them to see sense. They won't.

    So then she may face a leadership challenge and/or she may have to listen to what Parliament advises her to do instead. This will consist mainly of telling her she cannot permit a no deal exit - which is the default option if her deal fails, as it will.

    What then? A general election? A new referendum? Who can say? But, whatever happens, it seems pretty inescapable that the UK will have to ask the EU to stop the clock and postpone the Brexit departure date, because even a Tory leadership contest takes 6 weeks to organise, while a general election or a referendum will take longer still.

    Monster SNAFU. And all because the idiot Brexsh1tters failed to think about the Irish border and the realities of dealing with a bloc ten times the size of the UK.
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  42. #342  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    And all because the idiot Brexsh1tters failed to think about the Irish border and the realities of dealing with a bloc ten times the size of the UK.
    Obviously for the Remainers, the Irish border was uppermost in their mind.
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  43. #343  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    And all because the idiot Brexsh1tters failed to think about the Irish border and the realities of dealing with a bloc ten times the size of the UK.
    Obviously for the Remainers, the Irish border was uppermost in their mind.
    Thanks for making my point for me, perfectly, about idiot Brexshitters.

    If we Remain, the Irish border is not a problem.

    That is the whole point. The Irish border issue is one Brexshitters have to resolve, because it is their recommended course of action that creates the problem. Durrh.



    Footnote: The 2016 Remain campaign did draw attention to the problem, but it was dismissed as part of Project Fear of course: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...orther-ireland
    Last edited by exchemist; December 11th, 2018 at 12:06 PM.
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    Night of the long knives?
    May the force be with her.
    All it proves is that the EU are not the democratic organisation we are. All along they have wanted to teach us a lesson.
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  45. #345  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Night of the long knives?
    May the force be with her.
    All it proves is that the EU are not the democratic organisation we are. All along they have wanted to teach us a lesson.
    Idiotic remark.

    The EU has bent over backwards to help us as far as they can, while not ruining their own internal system of treaties.

    Furthermore the Irish backstop, which is the cause of the attempt by some in the Tory party to defenestrate May, is merely the EU ensuring, on behalf of one of its members, that the UK continues in all circumstances to adhere to the Good Friday Agreement, which the UK entered into quite freely, and re-affirmed its commitment to a year ago, during the negotiations.

    The Good Friday Agreement was a triumph of delicate diplomacy by John Major, Tony Blair, the Irish government - and eventually the terrorist organisations themselves. It ended thirty years of bloodshed. Now these blinkered fools, with their hearts set on a hard Brexit that will seriously damage the UK economy, want to tear it up because it inconveniently stands in the way of their road to poverty and isolation. It is scarcely possible to contemplate anything more moronic.

    There is nothing whatever that is either punitive or unreasonable in what the EU has said it is prepared to agree to.
    Last edited by exchemist; December 12th, 2018 at 04:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    The EU has bent over backwards to help us as far as they can, while not ruining their own internal system of treaties.

    Furthermore the Irish backstop, which is the cause of the attempt by some in the Tory party to defenestrate May, is merely the EU ensuring, on behalf of one of its members, that the UK continues in all circumstances to adhere to the Good Friday Agreement, which the UK entered into quite freely, and re-affirmed its commitment to a year ago, during the negotiations.

    The Good Friday Agreement was a triumph of delicate diplomacy by John Major, Tony Blair, the Irish government - and eventually the terrorist organisations themselves. It ended thirty years of bloodshed. Now these blinkered fools, with their hearts set on a hard Brexit that will seriously damage the UK economy, want to tear it up because it inconveniently stands in the way of their road to poverty and isolation. It is scarcely possibly to contemplate anything more moronic.

    There is nothing whatever that is either punitive or unreasonable in what the EU has said it is prepared to agree to.
    Does it seem a little unfair that the UK should have its wish to leave the EU tangled up in the Irish question?

    Would it be on the cards for the the 3 other nations of the UK to "declare independence" from NI unless they are willing to play ball? (counterproductive and is revenge best served cold?)

    NI could be either independent or form a union with the South but England ,Wales and Scotland are free to contemplate such a move.,aren't they?

    Of course everyone would be worse off(even Dublin might well look askance at taking more responsibility for NI) but why do the Unionists assume there are no consequences to the position they have adopted?(biting the hand that feeds?)
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  47. #347  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    The EU has bent over backwards to help us as far as they can, while not ruining their own internal system of treaties.

    Furthermore the Irish backstop, which is the cause of the attempt by some in the Tory party to defenestrate May, is merely the EU ensuring, on behalf of one of its members, that the UK continues in all circumstances to adhere to the Good Friday Agreement, which the UK entered into quite freely, and re-affirmed its commitment to a year ago, during the negotiations.

    The Good Friday Agreement was a triumph of delicate diplomacy by John Major, Tony Blair, the Irish government - and eventually the terrorist organisations themselves. It ended thirty years of bloodshed. Now these blinkered fools, with their hearts set on a hard Brexit that will seriously damage the UK economy, want to tear it up because it inconveniently stands in the way of their road to poverty and isolation. It is scarcely possibly to contemplate anything more moronic.

    There is nothing whatever that is either punitive or unreasonable in what the EU has said it is prepared to agree to.
    Does it seem a little unfair that the UK should have its wish to leave the EU tangled up in the Irish question?

    Would it be on the cards for the the 3 other nations of the UK to "declare independence" from NI unless they are willing to play ball? (counterproductive and is revenge best served cold?)

    NI could be either independent or form a union with the South but England ,Wales and Scotland are free to contemplate such a move.,aren't they?

    Of course everyone would be worse off(even Dublin might well look askance at taking more responsibility for NI) but why do the Unionists assume there are no consequences to the position they have adopted?(biting the hand that feeds?)
    Unfair? Not really. The Good Friday Agreement was possible because we were all in the EU together. So choosing, airily, to leave it automatically created a problem that those choosing to leave are responsible for. As John Major observed, it is myth that any country, other than N Korea, is entirely autonomous. All countries are bound by webs of treaties and agreements they have reached with others for mutual advantage. It is infantile to think you can just scrap one lot and swan off, without knock-on effects. But if what you mean is that, but for the Daioupaeigh's intransigence, we'd have long ago agreed to make NI a special case and got on with Brexit, then yes I wholeheartedly agree.

    Personally I think the Daioupaeigh is doing N Ireland a massive disservice. I think that having special status, as a part of the UK that remained in the Single Market, would make Belfast a magnet for industries and financial service providers wanting to supply the EU in a frictionless manner. Being the bridge between the EU and the UK could be a huge plus for them. But instead.......... Naoe Poperaigh!......these constipated sods can't see beyond their noses.

    So here we are. This is one reason why I wonder if we may need an election to break the logjam. May will probably win her no confidence vote, in which case not much will change as a result of tonight.
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  48. #348  
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    If May is defeated then it could eventually let in Corbyn and his band of loonies. Corbyn wants a united Ireland. Problem solved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    If May is defeated then it could eventually let in Corbyn and his band of loonies. Corbyn wants a united Ireland. Problem solved.
    More ignorance.

    The conditions under which NI would join a united Ireland are laid out explicitly in the Good Friday Agreement. What Corbs might like is neither here nor there.

    You need to read a better newspaper.
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  50. #350  
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    I don't read any newspaper. Nearly everything written in the press is proved false sooner or later.
    You must be a Times reader.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I don't read any newspaper. Nearly everything written in the press is proved false sooner or later.
    You must be a Times reader.
    (Citation needed)

    This is a bollocks statement ox
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    What was written yesterday will be contradicted today and then contradicted again tomorrow.
    I still haven't forgiven the Sunday Times for publishing the Hitler diaries.
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    So in other words, no citation at all. Just your personal malice and bias. That is not acceptable at all, and you know it
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  54. #354  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I don't read any newspaper. Nearly everything written in the press is proved false sooner or later.
    You must be a Times reader.
    Newspapers seem not to be the only things you do not read.

    I don't read the Murdoch press. Too biased. I take the FT, which is less right-wing in outlook than the Times and far less tabloid in its news selection, though it does admittedly have an economic/business perspective. The advantage of the FT is that it does try to get behind the stories a bit, to explain what the issues are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I don't read any newspaper. Nearly everything written in the press is proved false sooner or later..
    Exactly. The less you know the more informed you are. Ignorance is strength.
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  56. #356  
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    Looks like May won her confidence vote.
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

    "It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Looks like May won her confidence vote.
    The plot twists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Looks like May won her confidence vote.
    The plot twists.
    Does it twist or thicken? lol

    Going into it, I thought that it was pretty likely that she would win the confidence vote and remain in power.
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

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  59. #359  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Does it twist or thicken? lol

    Going into it, I thought that it was pretty likely that she would win the confidence vote and remain in power.
    Agree. Nothing has changed on Brexit - it was just a 12hr distraction. But, for the little it is worth, on domestic politics, we now know we can expect May to resign before the next scheduled election. If the government survives that long, which it may not.

    On Brexit, we still have the deal on offer, a no deal exit, some Norway variant, or Remain as possibilities, depending on the route the government follows and how the House of Commons reacts. Going by precedents from earlier eras, this government should have fallen, having failed to get its major business through the Commons. But these conventions are no longer respected, and it has to be said that handing the country over to the Marx Bros would give anyone pause for thought.

    If we had a decent Opposition, it would all be a lot less fraught. Not a good situation at all.
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    Theresa May, may well step down before the next General Elections. Who cares, there are plenty of Conservative candidates willing to fill her place. My three favourites are David Davis, Michael Gove and Jacob Rees-Mogg. Brexit will ( in my opinion) go ahead, however we are in a political era where the very unexpected can happen. Ask David Cameron, when he was forced to give the British people a vote on staying in or leaving the European Union ( EU ) courtesy of Nigel Farage, it wasn't supposed to happen. The emergence of Right Wing political parties all over the EU in recent years, especially in Germany, thanks to the flawed decision making of Angela Merkel. Talking about the unexpected in the political arena Donald Trump was not supposed to become POTUS. As for the Marx Brothers ( Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell ) a series of political errors by the Conservative party could let these two Communist Party era throwbacks into number 10 Downing Street, very interesting times ahead. All Members of European Parliament ( MEP's ), whether they are in the UK, or elsewhere in the EU could be looking for alternative employment in the next few years.
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  61. #361  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Theresa May, may well step down before the next General Elections. Who cares, there are plenty of Conservative candidates willing to fill her place. My three favourites are David Davis, Michael Gove and Jacob Rees-Mogg. Brexit will ( in my opinion) go ahead, however we are in a political era where the very unexpected can happen. Ask David Cameron, when he was forced to give the British people a vote on staying in or leaving the European Union ( EU ) courtesy of Nigel Farage, it wasn't supposed to happen. The emergence of Right Wing political parties all over the EU in recent years, especially in Germany, thanks to the flawed decision making of Angela Merkel. Talking about the unexpected in the political arena Donald Trump was not supposed to become POTUS. As for the Marx Brothers ( Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell ) a series of political errors by the Conservative party could let these two Communist Party era throwbacks into number 10 Downing Street, very interesting times ahead. All Members of European Parliament ( MEP's ), whether they are in the UK, or elsewhere in the EU could be looking for alternative employment in the next few years.
    Yes, I can just see Rees-Mogg as PM, turning up at No 10 in top hat and tails and mounted on his pennyfarthing. Not.

    I think it is now highly likely that we will get the Marx Bros in government after the next election, possibly in coalition with the SNP if, as seems likely, they can't gain a straight majority. Which could spell the end of the union.

    Certainly, if Bozo becomes Tory party leader, I intend to vote Labour, and damn the torpedoes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Theresa May, may well step down before the next General Elections. Who cares, there are plenty of Conservative candidates willing to fill her place. My three favourites are David Davis, Michael Gove and Jacob Rees-Mogg. Brexit will ( in my opinion) go ahead, however we are in a political era where the very unexpected can happen. Ask David Cameron, when he was forced to give the British people a vote on staying in or leaving the European Union ( EU ) courtesy of Nigel Farage, it wasn't supposed to happen. The emergence of Right Wing political parties all over the EU in recent years, especially in Germany, thanks to the flawed decision making of Angela Merkel. Talking about the unexpected in the political arena Donald Trump was not supposed to become POTUS. As for the Marx Brothers ( Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell ) a series of political errors by the Conservative party could let these two Communist Party era throwbacks into number 10 Downing Street, very interesting times ahead. All Members of European Parliament ( MEP's ), whether they are in the UK, or elsewhere in the EU could be looking for alternative employment in the next few years.
    Yes, I can just see Rees-Mogg as PM, turning up at No 10 in top hat and tails and mounted on his pennyfarthing. Not.

    I think it is now highly likely that we will get the Marx Bros in government after the next election, possibly in coalition with the SNP if, as seems likely, they can't gain a straight majority. Which could spell the end of the union.

    Certainly, if Bozo becomes Tory party leader, I intend to vote Labour, and damn the torpedoes.
    Do you know that Boris Johnson has duel nationality ( British/USA ). Perhaps he could make a big surprise either side of the Atlantic.
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  63. #363  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    Yes, I can just see Rees-Mogg as PM, turning up at No 10 in top hat and tails and mounted on his pennyfarthing. Not.

    I think it is now highly likely that we will get the Marx Bros in government after the next election, possibly in coalition with the SNP if, as seems likely, they can't gain a straight majority. Which could spell the end of the union.

    Certainly, if Bozo becomes Tory party leader, I intend to vote Labour, and damn the torpedoes.
    Do you know that Boris Johnson has duel nationality ( British/USA ). Perhaps he could make a big surprise either side of the Atlantic.
    Dual, you mean? Yes I did.

    I think he's a dead duck in the UK now. He'll go back to earning a crust as a right-wing gadfly journalist of some sort. He has no purchase at all on American politics, though I suppose he could make a chat show host. Like Piers Moron.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    Yes, I can just see Rees-Mogg as PM, turning up at No 10 in top hat and tails and mounted on his pennyfarthing. Not.

    I think it is now highly likely that we will get the Marx Bros in government after the next election, possibly in coalition with the SNP if, as seems likely, they can't gain a straight majority. Which could spell the end of the union.

    Certainly, if Bozo becomes Tory party leader, I intend to vote Labour, and damn the torpedoes.
    Do you know that Boris Johnson has duel nationality ( British/USA ). Perhaps he could make a big surprise either side of the Atlantic.
    Dual, you mean? Yes I did.

    I think he's a dead duck in the UK now. He'll go back to earning a crust as a right-wing gadfly journalist of some sort. He has no purchase at all on American politics, though I suppose he could make a chat show host. Like Piers Moron.
    Dual it is , my bad. Boris Johnson was Mayor of London and apparently one does not become Mayor of London unless one has something special to add to the political arena, but I could be wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Dual it is , my bad. Boris Johnson was Mayor of London and apparently one does not become Mayor of London unless one has something special to add to the political arena, but I could be wrong.
    Sadiq Khan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Dual it is , my bad. Boris Johnson was Mayor of London and apparently one does not become Mayor of London unless one has something special to add to the political arena, but I could be wrong.
    Sadiq Khan?
    I am very wrong.
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  67. #367  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Yes, I can just see Rees-Mogg as PM, turning up at No 10 in top hat and tails and mounted on his pennyfarthing. Not.
    Yes, but he did get the better of Dimbleby. Not many do that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wKRg-1e6s
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Yes, I can just see Rees-Mogg as PM, turning up at No 10 in top hat and tails and mounted on his pennyfarthing. Not.
    Yes, but he did get the better of Dimbleby. Not many do that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wKRg-1e6s
    And Vince Cable is good at ballroom dancing.............
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    We can go full steam ahead with Brexit now Mourinho is sacked.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...ain-and-brexit

    Post Brexit, UK will be a land of palm trees.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    We can go full steam ahead with Brexit now Mourinho is sacked.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...ain-and-brexit

    Post Brexit, UK will be a land of palm trees.
    A desert? Not quite. But we will gradually lose our automotive and aerospace industries, plus a fair chunk of our financial and other service industry, and become an international irrelevance. And eventually we will no longer be the UK: Scotland will secede.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    But we will gradually lose our automotive and aerospace industries
    Which were never in decline until we joined the ropey eu.

    Something we have not discussed is the gay guide to Brexit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQrkcM1t7Ws
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    [QUOTE=ox;618773]
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    But we will gradually lose our automotive and aerospace industries
    Which were never in decline until we joined the ropey eu.
    [snip]
    QUOTE]

    Hahaha. We joined the EU in 1973, by which time our motor industry was on government life-support. Remember BMC and those crap cars of the early 70s? I certainly do.

    It has since undergone a gradual renaissance, thanks to integration across Europe, which attracted Japanese and then German investment, to become one of the UK's most successful manufacturing industries. And now it is already showing the strains of Brexit, even before we leave. Just wait and see what happens if we leave without a deal. It will be crucified by cross-border delays.
    Last edited by exchemist; December 18th, 2018 at 10:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Hahaha. We joined the EU in 1973, by which time our motor industry was on government life-support. Remember BMC and those crap cars of the early 70s? I certainly do.
    Rubbish. The home of the motor car was Coventry and Birmingham. That was until the French, Germans and Italians started to flood the market with their cheap crappy cars, like the Lancia where rust was a feature.
    Go and look at the quality of cars made in Coventry in the motor museum there. Then Coventry ceased home designed car production for decades.
    If there was a problem it was the Marxist influence. Talking to one guy who worked at Longbridge I was informed about how they manipulated the workers assembled in Cofton Park opposite. You had to raise your hand for strike action or you would be made to feel like a scab.
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  74. #374  
    ox
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    I was thinking of going to London today to visit the museums.
    Glad I didn't because I've just read this.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46128268

    This is crazy. 22 out of 33 London boroughs now have a minority of white English people.
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  75. #375  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post

    Rubbish. The home of the motor car was Coventry and Birmingham. That was until the French, Germans and Italians started to flood the market with their cheap crappy cars, like the Lancia where rust was a feature.
    Go and look at the quality of cars made in Coventry in the motor museum there. Then Coventry ceased home designed car production for decades.
    If there was a problem it was the Marxist influence. Talking to one guy who worked at Longbridge I was informed about how they manipulated the workers assembled in Cofton Park opposite. You had to raise your hand for strike action or you would be made to feel like a scab.
    What rot. The Morris Marina (1971)? The Austin Allegro (1973), known as the Austin "All Aggro" because it broke down so often? Or the hideous TR7 (1974), which was so bad the display model broke down at the motor show? Don't make me laugh. These typified the terrible cars of that period. You're right about the militancy of the unions - that was part of what the British car industry of that epoch so God-awful.

    It is true that joining the EEC hastened the decline of these lousy cars, built uneconomically, with taxpayer subsidies, because the EEC introduced more competition from half-way decent ones, made in Germany or France. But, as is so often the case, exposure to competition eventually results in the industry raising its game. What revitalised the industry was the Japanese realising, after the Thatcher reforms and the closure of a lot of car plants, that they could make cars in the UK with a reformed labour force and supply Europe. Nissan's plant in Sunderland and the Honda engine deal were early examples. Meanwhile the component business continued to gather strength, e.g. CVJs from GKN etc.

    Brexit puts all these painfully achieved gains at risk.
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  76. #376  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I was thinking of going to London today to visit the museums.
    Glad I didn't because I've just read this.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46128268

    This is crazy. 22 out of 33 London boroughs now have a minority of white English people.
    Oh quite. Can't possibly visit a museum in a city in which one might have to share a bus or tube carriage with all these nig-nogs.

    But don't worry: you and those who think like you will soon be dead - and then we can all get on with it without you.
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  77. #377  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I was thinking of going to London today to visit the museums.
    <snip>
    This is crazy. 22 out of 33 London boroughs now have a minority of white English people.
    Glad to see you arent hiding your Xenophobia and hate anymore Ox, from what you say only the White people are acceptable and of good quality
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  78. #378  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    This is crazy. 22 out of 33 London boroughs now have a minority of white English people.
    Cool! Sound like good places to visit. Which boroughs?

    In Boston, Chinatown was one of my favorite places. Here in San Diego, Little Italy is pretty cool.
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  79. #379  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    This is crazy. 22 out of 33 London boroughs now have a minority of white English people.
    Cool! Sound like good places to visit. Which boroughs?

    In Boston, Chinatown was one of my favorite places. Here in San Diego, Little Italy is pretty cool.
    I couldn't tell you, I'm afraid.

    The fact is that London has become what New York was for much of the c.20th - a melting pot of people from all over the world. The joke is that ox blames the presence of all these dark-skinned people on the EU, whereas the citizens of all EU member states are white. The people in London of Asian, African and Caribbean ancestry have come from the former colonies, not from the EU at all. But ox has got it into his thick head that wogs begin at Calais and therefore blames "Brussels" for their presence! This is the level of thinking that led to the referendum result in the first place. People have been fed a diet of lies about the EU for decades and no longer bother to think.
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