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Thread: The British General Election on June 8

  1. #1 The British General Election on June 8 
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    The Labour Party is closing the gap it seems and I found this poll analysis on twitter(which I can't find referenced apart from https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ )



    Matthew Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ 5 hours

    Wowzer. Britain's generational split:


    Labour
    18-24 59%
    65+ 19%


    Conservative
    18-24 19%
    65+ 67%


    Corbyn is praying the young turunout..




    Would it be a good thing if Labour actually snatched victory ? Is it better for Corbyn to be defeated so that the Labour party can sort itself out or for him to win so that the Tories can be given the bum's rush?

    Is a hung Parliament the best to hope for?


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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Is a hung Parliament the best to hope for?
    I think hanging is too good for 'em! ;}


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    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/sta...566272/photo/1

    As May's lead shrinks to 5 points, Rod Liddle asks: is this the worst Tory campaign ever?

    A real shock** (to me anyway) but it was always the case that a General Election would/might concentrate minds and provide opportunities for banana skins.

    ** a pleasant one on balance
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    Ya want Cheeto our Orangutan?

    I'll sell him cheap for a trade with you.

    What a freaking disaster he is.
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    Ya want Cheeto our Orangutan? <br>
    <br>
    I'll sell him cheap for a trade with you.<br>
    <br>
    What a freaking disaster he is.
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    I happened on a scienced based campaign on youtube. Although it is primarily about Brexit it also seems to nicely cover the general election and it's from a science perspective.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Mj_US2i48

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFWKe42W2QI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA3EBcgrebc
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  8. #7  
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    Can't work out which is the sensible party and which is the silly party.
    IMO Labour are the sensible party with a silly leader. Tories the silly party with a sensible leader.
    Even though I suffer with acute voter fatigue I'll probably force my way to the polling station next Thursday to vote for ???
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Can't work out which is the sensible party and which is the silly party.
    IMO Labour are the sensible party with a silly leader. Tories the silly party with a sensible leader.
    Even though I suffer with acute voter fatigue I'll probably force my way to the polling station next Thursday to vote for ???
    May sensible? She reminds me of Arnold Schwartzenegger in the scene at departure when he pulls off his head and lobs it as a bomb into the cops hunting him down

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cp..._maypolice.jpg

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/...4dbcf989_o.gif
    Last edited by geordief; June 3rd, 2017 at 07:49 AM.
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  10. #9  
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    If its May or Corbyn, then the winner is likely to be in the politicians who messed up Britain Hall of Fame.
    They will join the likes of David Cameron (called EU referendum), Margaret Thatcher (split the union), James Callaghan (winter of discontent), Harold Wilson (all power to the unions).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    If its May or Corbyn, then the winner is likely to be in the politicians who messed up Britain Hall of Fame.
    They will join the likes of David Cameron (called EU referendum), Margaret Thatcher (split the union), James Callaghan (winter of discontent), Harold Wilson (all power to the unions).
    You can't blame politicians for being elected. Even the walking dung hill that is Trump can point to a deprived childhood (his father was a crook by all accounts).

    Politicians too are pawns in the game.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Can't work out which is the sensible party and which is the silly party.
    IMO Labour are the sensible party with a silly leader. Tories the silly party with a sensible leader.
    Even though I suffer with acute voter fatigue I'll probably force my way to the polling station next Thursday to vote for ???
    May sensible? She reminds me of Arnold Schwartzenegger in the scene at departure when he pulls off his head and lobs it as a bomb into the cops hunting him down

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cp..._maypolice.jpg

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/...4dbcf989_o.gif

    Theresa May has made the election about her personal credibility yet has gone from saying that Brexit would damage our security, employment and economy to claiming she is the best person to get Brexit. She told us she wants the UK to stay in the Single Market 5 weeks later she said we would be leaving it. She tells us she is the right one to negotiate Brexit, yet she has no experience in negotiating, has a history of U-turns and has accused the leaders of the EU of some kind of grand plot or conspiracy against her. Theresa May also called a general election when she was 24 points ahead in the opinion polls and told the entire public that her decision had nothing to do with her election lead.

    Conservative Record:

    1.) Worst wage growth in 70 years.
    2.) National debt increasing from 960 billion in 2010 to 1.73 trillion latest figures. The Conservatives have added more national debt than every Labour government in history combined.
    3.) They have cut police numbers from 170,000 in 2010 to 150,000 latest figures, despite being specifically warned this would increase the terror attack risk.
    4.) Has let in over a million non-EU migrants of which Theresa May had complete control over as Home Secretary.
    5.) Has presided over the biggest fall in home ownership since Margaret Thatcher introduced the right to buy.
    6.) Has increased stealth taxes on working and middle class families to have a higher total government tax burden than under Labour in 2010, despite cutting taxes for the wealthiest.
    7.) Introduced pay freezes and 1% increase limits for public sector workers such as nurses, resulting in real terms falling wages when inflation is considered.
    8.) Brought in cuts to welfare benefits for the poorest and disabled, including paying two private compaines half a billion pounds to re-classify hundreds of thousands of disabled people as fit for work.
    9.) Scrapped housing benefit for young adults and brought in a bedroom tax for people living in properties with unused rooms, resulting in evictions and homeless. The charity shelter estimates their are now over 250,000 people homeless in modern Britain a country with the 5th largest economy in the world.
    10.) Cuts to benefits, inflation without wage growth and homelessness leading to food bank dependency, with over a million food parcels given out by charities.
    11.) Cuts to the military budget have seen regulars cut and replaced with reservists, leaving the UK with an army unable to conduct andy kind meaningful operations. Likewise cuts to the Royal Navy have left the British fleet dangerously short of naval vessels. Also cuts to cyber security have left the UK exposed.
    12.) Underfunding of the NHS and Social care have left the NHS dangerously stretched with many A & E's having to regularly declare emergency status as they fail to cope and so many elderly and disabled people being left days on end unable to wash, dress, feed themselves or even go to the toilet because their care visits have either not been funded or there just weren't enough carers to provide for them.
    13.) State comprehensive school funding cut to pay for Free Schools. A way of subsidising well off parents who would normally send their children to private schools with public money.
    14.) Brought the nations energy grid to near collapse and have allowed Fracking and are allowing the Chinese to build an experimental new nuclear reactor, all whilst having sold off the green investment bank, cut the incentives for solar power generation, cut allowances for environmentally friendly cars and ended subsidies for renewable power compaines.

    Current proposed Conservative policies:

    1.) Top priority for them is another round of tax cuts, both for large corporations and very wealthy individuals.
    2.) Theresa May says she believes in fox hunting and wants to make it legal again. Fox hunting involves the chasing of foxes by the upper classes on horse back in bright red uniforms using large packs of dogs to find and tare the fox apart. This apparently constitutes sport for those involved.
    3.) Theresa May wants to take away the free school lunches given to children whose parents are poor. Instead she wishes to replace with free breakfasts because the Conservatives believe this will be cheaper. They have allocated funding for less than 7% of pupils or 7 pence per child.
    4.) Social care tax, the Conservatives plan to introduce a scheme that would allow them to take the houses of old people who require care. There has been much controversy because the Conservative manifesto didn't have a cap on potential costs and several ministers stated there wouldn't be a cap, Theresa May however has flip-flopped because this policy is proving to be massively unpopular and reinforcing the idea that the Conservatives are targeting pensioners as a revenue source.
    5.) They want to scrap the triple lock which ensures that pensions rise with at least inflation every year. Also they wish to scrap the winter fuel allowance which is payed to help pensioners.
    6.) They want to bring back selective education which traditionally benefits children from wealthy backgrounds whilst also writing off the majority of children at age 11.
    7.) They wish to continue their economic experiment with austerity despite it's failure to clear the deficit, nevermind touch the national debt. This will continue to drain even more money from areas all over the country resulting in local businesses closing down, the loss of local post offices and banks and higher unemployment and social deprivation, also it reduces the nations potential for growth because whole areas become poverty stricken rather than producing healthy tax revenues for the nations treasury.
    8.) On Brexit Theresa May is still being evasive, on one hand telling us that she can't tell us how much money she would consider a good deal for the divorce bill, the money for the UK's commitment liabilities such as pension rights of UK officials working in the EU etc.. However she tells us we will be leaving the single market, customs union and ECJ's jurisdiction. She has also accused the EU and the 27 other countries of plotting against her after off the cuff remarks by Jean-Claude Junker about the UK's government's chaotic approach to Brexit. Also video footage of Theresa May slating Brexit in an interview with laura kuenssberg has surfaced. In it she points out the negative affect of Brexit on jobs, security and the UK economy. Yet she tell's us she is the best person to negotiate Brexit, something she deosn't believe in with people she says are plotting against her, whilst setting the scene for not getting any kind of deal by repeating the phrase no deal is better than a bad deal.

    Theresa May offers 5 more years of austerity, very little chance of getting a deal from Europe. More chaos and crisis for the NHS and public services, anti-environmental policies like fracking, more cuts destroying local communities, boarded up shops and run down town centres, all whilst increasing stealth taxes to fund cuts for the wealthy that donate millions to her party. She has proved she will U-turn at the drop of a hat if it suits her, so how can we trust her? Even if we do trust her, do we really want millionaire's tax cuts and fox hunting as our nation's priorities?
    Last edited by Ascended; June 3rd, 2017 at 01:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Can't work out which is the sensible party and which is the silly party.
    IMO Labour are the sensible party with a silly leader. Tories the silly party with a sensible leader.
    Even though I suffer with acute voter fatigue I'll probably force my way to the polling station next Thursday to vote for ???

    Labour Commitments:

    1.) The gap between the highest and lowest paid workers currently averages a ratio of 182 to 1. Labour doesn't believe that we should value one person's work at such a tiny fraction of another's. They are committed to working towards narrowing the salary divide to a much a fairer 20 to 1 ratio. This should help to ensure a fairer society and help those at the bottom towards achieving a genuine living wage, here Labour sets it's target of at least 10 per hour minimun for every worker.

    2.) Building a clean economy of the future for all of us and for future generations. Recent years have seen a failure to progress towards our targets. A Labour government will put us back on track to meet the targets in the Climate Change Act and the Paris Agreement.

    3.) Labour will secure crucial shares of global export markets and create jobs by providing investment across each region in support of the low-carbon economy which is one of the UK’s fastest-growing sectors.

    4.) Take energy back into public ownership to deliver renewable energy, affordability for consumers, and democratic control. Labour plan to do this in stages:
    i.) Regaining control of energy supply networks through the alteration of the National and Regional Network Operator license conditions.
    ii.) Supporting the creation of publicly owned, locally accountable energy companies and co-operatives to rival existing private energy suppliers, with at least one in every region.
    iii.) Legislating to permit publicly owned local companies to purchase the regional grid infrastructure, and to ensure that national and regional grid infrastructure is brought into public ownership over time.

    5.) Labour would ban fracking stating it would lock us into an energy infrastructure based on fossil fuels, long after the point in 2030 when the Committee on Climate Change says gas in the UK must sharply decline.

    6.) Labour would invest in emerging technologies such as carbon capture and storage that would help to smooth the transition to cleaner fuels and to protect existing jobs as part of the future energy mix. Helping safeguard the offshore oil and gas industry, Labour have a strategy focused on protecting vital North Sea assets, and the jobs and skills that depend on them. Labour are also committed to renewable energy projects, including tidal lagoons, which can help create manufacturing and energy jobs as well as contributing to climate- change commitments.

    7.) Labour have a fully costed manifesto, with all current spending paid for out of taxation or redirected revenue streams. Labour will therefore set the target of eliminating the government’s deficit on day-to-day spending within five years.
    Corporation tax in the UK is the lowest of any major developed economy. Labour's new settlement with business will ask large corporations to pay a little more while still keeping UK corporation tax among the lowest of the major developed economies. In turn, Labour will meet the business need for a more skilled workforce with extra corporate tax revenues while contributing to education and skills budgets.
    Labour will also protect small businesses by reintroducing the lower small profits rate of corporation tax and exclude small businesses from costly plans to introduce quarterly reporting and take action on late payments.

    8.) Labour will establish a new Department for Housing to focus on tackling the crisis and to ensure housing is about homes for the many, not merely investment opportunities for the few. Labour’s new housing ministry will be tasked with improving the number, standards and affordability of homes. Labour will overhaul the Homes and Communities Agency to be Labour’s housing delivery body, and give councils new powers to build the homes local communities need. Labour would prioritise brownfield sites and protect the green belt, starting work on a new generation of New Towns to build the homes we need and avoid urban sprawl.

    9.) Labour is strongly committed to reducing human suffering caused by war. Labour will publish a strategy for protecting civilians in conflict, setting out detailed plans for work on conflict prevention and resolution, post- conflict peacebuilding, and justice for the victims of war crimes. Labour has created a Minister for Peace and Disarmament to lead this work.
    Unlike the Conservatives, Labour believes Britain’s foreign policy should be guided by the values of peace, universal rights and international law. Today, these values are being tested. As we leave the European Union, keeping Britain global is one of our country’s most urgent tasks.
    Labour will always stand up for the rights, interests and self-determination of Britain’s overseas territories and their citizens, whether protecting the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands against anyone who would seek to challenge it, or supporting the right of the Chagos islanders to return to their homelands.
    Labour will reclaim Britain’s leading role in tackling climate change, working hard to preserve the Paris Agreement and deliver on international commitments to reduce emissions while mitigating the impacts of climate change on developing countries.

    10.) Labour will continue to support development and innovation of the UK defence industry to ensure that it can continue to rely on a highly skilled workforce. Labour are committed to a procurement process that supports the British steel industry and defence manufacturing industry, which in turn provide good jobs throughout the supply chain. Labour will publish a Defence Industrial Strategy White Paper, including a National Shipbuilding Strategy to secure a long-term future for the industry, workers and UK defence.
    Labour believe we have a duty to properly reward and remunerate our Armed Forces. Under the Conservatives, our Armed Forces have been hit by rent rises, pay restraint, and changes to tax and benefits, putting real pressure on service personnel and their families. Labour will ensure they get the pay and living conditions that their service merits.
    Dedicated service personnel are at the heart of our UK defence policy. Labour will immediately examine recruitment and retention policies in order to stem the exodus seen under the Conservatives. Labour will publish new strategic equality objectives to ensure our personnel reflect our diverse society.
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    Ascended: So good to read your political arguments again.
    I can't comment on everything, but just pick up on a few points which I think are important to voters.

    Defence: Recent events would point to security being top priority. Can we trust Labour with keeping the country safe if Corbyn would be reluctant to use the nuclear deterrent? More police on the streets will not prevent the type of terrorist attacks we have seen in the last 2 weeks.

    Economics: Despite low wage growth there are more people in employment and education. There are fewer strikes. Inflation is pretty well under control. The rich already pay more tax than the poor. Private wealth creators help provide jobs when the money trickles down. We found out last time that some people actually like zero hours contracts. Food banks are only for use in an emergency.

    Foreign policy: Whether we like it or not the nation did vote for Brexit and we have to get on with Trump, whether we like him or not. I can't see Corbyn and Trump getting on too well. Labour's foreign policy in the Middle East under the last Labour government was a disaster.

    Hung parliament: Which party might Labour enter a coalition? For their support, the SNP would demand a new independence referendum, just like in the late 1970's.

    Homelessness: This is a complicated issue. We might see a reduction after Brexit.

    Fox hunting: Adds value to the rural economy, and it should not be an issue here.

    Labour government in general: Money tree economics has been seen to pay little notice to inflation which ultimately creates wage demands and destroys jobs. This was a gift to Thatcher. We have seen that Corbyn and Abbott are more interested in ideology than sums.

    Hope I don't sound too much like a Tory. I have only ever voted for them once, but as I get older I'm more like to vote for the blue party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    ......and we have to get on with Trump, whether we like him or not. I can't see Corbyn and Trump getting on too well..
    Incredible that that should be a serious consideration. Talk about the USA'S poodle ...electing someone partly on the basis that they will get on with Trump. Pass the sick bucket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Defence: Recent events would point to security being top priority. Can we trust Labour with keeping the country safe if Corbyn would be reluctant to use the nuclear deterrent? More police on the streets will not prevent the type of terrorist attacks we have seen in the last 2 weeks.

    Foreign policy: Whether we like it or not the nation did vote for Brexit and we have to get on with Trump, whether we like him or not. I can't see Corbyn and Trump getting on too well.r.
    Good. The world doesn't need someone who will be chummy with pond scum like Trump. The world needs more leaders who will oppose him and call him out for his idiocy and incompetence.

    Homelessness: This is a complicated issue. We might see a reduction after Brexit.
    You might also see an increase. This is pure speculation so why even mention it?

    Fox hunting: Adds value to the rural economy, and it should not be an issue here.
    Definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. It's an outdated and barbaric sport that has no place in the modern world. Any value it adds to the rural economy could easily be made up in other ways. Now I understand the population needs to be controlled but there are more humane ways of doing so.
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Ascended: So good to read your political arguments again.
    I can't comment on everything, but just pick up on a few points which I think are important to voters.

    Defence: Recent events would point to security being top priority. Can we trust Labour with keeping the country safe if Corbyn would be reluctant to use the nuclear deterrent? More police on the streets will not prevent the type of terrorist attacks we have seen in the last 2 weeks.

    Economics: Despite low wage growth there are more people in employment and education. There are fewer strikes. Inflation is pretty well under control. The rich already pay more tax than the poor. Private wealth creators help provide jobs when the money trickles down. We found out last time that some people actually like zero hours contracts. Food banks are only for use in an emergency.

    Foreign policy: Whether we like it or not the nation did vote for Brexit and we have to get on with Trump, whether we like him or not. I can't see Corbyn and Trump getting on too well. Labour's foreign policy in the Middle East under the last Labour government was a disaster.

    Hung parliament: Which party might Labour enter a coalition? For their support, the SNP would demand a new independence referendum, just like in the late 1970's.

    Homelessness: This is a complicated issue. We might see a reduction after Brexit.

    Fox hunting: Adds value to the rural economy, and it should not be an issue here.

    Labour government in general: Money tree economics has been seen to pay little notice to inflation which ultimately creates wage demands and destroys jobs. This was a gift to Thatcher. We have seen that Corbyn and Abbott are more interested in ideology than sums.

    Hope I don't sound too much like a Tory. I have only ever voted for them once, but as I get older I'm more like to vote for the blue party.
    The defence issue is interesting. I don't feel that the current government are capable of keeping us any safer than a Labour government whose leader would prefer a nuclear free world. Corbyn was asked a number of times if he would use the UK nuclear deterrent he stated categorically he'd never use it as a first strike, he didn't rule out using it entirely. The point he stressed repeatedly is that if we ever get to the stage where a nuclear weapon has to be used we have already lost, the whole world has lost.

    Our nuclear weapons were designed as a cold-war response system to combat the Soviet Union, the Trident missiles carry multiple warheads and are well into the multitude of megatons range. We are talking weapons thousands of times more destructive than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.

    Corbyn is far more focussed on finding diplomatic solutions where possible, but also ensuring we have sufficient resources to tackle terrorism and that the RAF, Royal Navy and British Army has enough funding, staffing and right balance of conventional weapons to be affective in combat sittuations that are more likely to arise.

    The police issue is serious because Theresa May was warned that cutting the police would leave us dangerously exposed. The police themselves have said they can't cope and have currently sequested nearly a thousand army personnel to help out. But the Prime Minister's response to police concerns was to call them scare mongering. Hardly keeping us all safe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybNK6I8nsdI

    With fox hunting, I would say that any tiny economic benefit, I do mean tiny, simply isn't enough to justify the cruelty that the vast majority of the country are very much opposed to.

    The economic situation has been one of failure for most people. Trickle down economics hasn't made the majority of people better off, if fact it's made them much poorer. Whilst many public sector workers have had a pay freeze and even nurses are only getting a 1% pay rise per annum inflation has been: 2009 - -0.5%, 2010 - 4.6%, 2011 - 5.2%, 2012 - 3.2%, 2013 - 3.0%, 2014 - 2.4%, 2015 - 1.0%, 2016 - 1.8% and so far for 2017 - 2.3%.

    In the process the income and wealth of the very richest has doubled, our public services and NHS are all suffering from a funding crisis, towns across the country have declined with bordered up shops with many buisnesses going to the wall and schools now even having to charge parents to pay for school books. Yet ordinary people now face a higher tax burden than under Labour and the government have added 770 billion to our national debt! They didn't have a global banking crisis to pay for, unlike what happened to Labour in 2008. So where has all our money gone? Or should we perhaps just again ask how the nations richest, who also provide three quarters of Conservative party funding ended up doubling their wealth.

    Is this really what Conservative success looks like? If so I'll say no thanks to 5 more years of Tory austerity/success.

    As to getting on well with Trump. Corbyn is a strongly principled man that believes in diplomacy and doesn't make personal attacks on people. So I don't think he would insult Trump but he wouldn't go along with anything he didn't believe in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The defence issue is interesting. I don't feel that the current government are capable of keeping us any safer than a Labour government whose leader would prefer a nuclear free world. Corbyn was asked a number of times if he would use the UK nuclear deterrent he stated categorically he'd never use it as a first strike, he didn't rule out using it entirely. The point he stressed repeatedly is that if we ever get to the stage where a nuclear weapon has to be used we have already lost, the whole world has lost.
    I'd certainly prefer a nuclear free world, but the threat is still there. The world has lived in relative peace for the last 70 years and nuclear weapons have played a big part. I don't want people in this century looking back to the previous one and thinking that the 20th Century was peaceful by comparison.

    The police issue is serious because Theresa May was warned that cutting the police would leave us dangerously exposed. The police themselves have said they can't cope and have currently sequested nearly a thousand army personnel to help out. But the Prime Minister's response to police concerns was to call them scare mongering. Hardly keeping us all safe.
    With crime rates in general falling why should you need more police? As we have seen a determined terrorist has only to drive a vehicle into a crowd these days. I think there now a case for all British police to be armed. I saw plenty of them in London yesterday. I wasn't far from London Bridge on the south bank at Blackfriars Bridge and life was normal apart from the security.

    With fox hunting, I would say that any tiny economic benefit, I do mean tiny, simply isn't enough to justify the cruelty that the vast majority of the country are very much opposed to.
    This is just a micro issue. The perception that all foxhunters are Tory toffs has been disproved. I'd be more opposed to May opening more grammar schools.

    The economic situation has been one of failure for most people. Trickle down economics hasn't made the majority of people better off, if fact it's made them much poorer. Whilst many public sector workers have had a pay freeze and even nurses are only getting a 1% pay rise per annum inflation has been: 2009 - -0.5%, 2010 - 4.6%, 2011 - 5.2%, 2012 - 3.2%, 2013 - 3.0%, 2014 - 2.4%, 2015 - 1.0%, 2016 - 1.8% and so far for 2017 - 2.3%.
    Yet people today seem overall to be richer than ever before and very few strikes in support of more pay.

    In the process the income and wealth of the very richest has doubled, our public services and NHS are all suffering from a funding crisis, towns across the country have declined with bordered up shops with many buisnesses going to the wall and schools now even having to charge parents to pay for school books. Yet ordinary people now face a higher tax burden than under Labour and the government have added 770 billion to our national debt! They didn't have a global banking crisis to pay for, unlike what happened to Labour in 2008. So where has all our money gone? Or should we perhaps just again ask how the nations richest, who also provide three quarters of Conservative party funding ended up doubling their wealth.
    The last Labour government under Blair and Brown was New Labour. Now it is back to old Labour and I remember under them inflation at 25%, strikes and more strikes, streets lined with garbage, commuters unable to get to work, the lights going out, people unable to bury their dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The defence issue is interesting. I don't feel that the current government are capable of keeping us any safer than a Labour government whose leader would prefer a nuclear free world. Corbyn was asked a number of times if he would use the UK nuclear deterrent he stated categorically he'd never use it as a first strike, he didn't rule out using it entirely. The point he stressed repeatedly is that if we ever get to the stage where a nuclear weapon has to be used we have already lost, the whole world has lost.
    I'd certainly prefer a nuclear free world, but the threat is still there. The world has lived in relative peace for the last 70 years and nuclear weapons have played a big part. I don't want people in this century looking back to the previous one and thinking that the 20th Century was peaceful by comparison.

    The police issue is serious because Theresa May was warned that cutting the police would leave us dangerously exposed. The police themselves have said they can't cope and have currently sequested nearly a thousand army personnel to help out. But the Prime Minister's response to police concerns was to call them scare mongering. Hardly keeping us all safe.
    With crime rates in general falling why should you need more police? As we have seen a determined terrorist has only to drive a vehicle into a crowd these days. I think there now a case for all British police to be armed. I saw plenty of them in London yesterday. I wasn't far from London Bridge on the south bank at Blackfriars Bridge and life was normal apart from the security.

    With fox hunting, I would say that any tiny economic benefit, I do mean tiny, simply isn't enough to justify the cruelty that the vast majority of the country are very much opposed to.
    This is just a micro issue. The perception that all foxhunters are Tory toffs has been disproved. I'd be more opposed to May opening more grammar schools.

    The economic situation has been one of failure for most people. Trickle down economics hasn't made the majority of people better off, if fact it's made them much poorer. Whilst many public sector workers have had a pay freeze and even nurses are only getting a 1% pay rise per annum inflation has been: 2009 - -0.5%, 2010 - 4.6%, 2011 - 5.2%, 2012 - 3.2%, 2013 - 3.0%, 2014 - 2.4%, 2015 - 1.0%, 2016 - 1.8% and so far for 2017 - 2.3%.
    Yet people today seem overall to be richer than ever before and very few strikes in support of more pay.

    In the process the income and wealth of the very richest has doubled, our public services and NHS are all suffering from a funding crisis, towns across the country have declined with bordered up shops with many buisnesses going to the wall and schools now even having to charge parents to pay for school books. Yet ordinary people now face a higher tax burden than under Labour and the government have added 770 billion to our national debt! They didn't have a global banking crisis to pay for, unlike what happened to Labour in 2008. So where has all our money gone? Or should we perhaps just again ask how the nations richest, who also provide three quarters of Conservative party funding ended up doubling their wealth.
    The last Labour government under Blair and Brown was New Labour. Now it is back to old Labour and I remember under them inflation at 25%, strikes and more strikes, streets lined with garbage, commuters unable to get to work, the lights going out, people unable to bury their dead.
    Just a couple of points here.

    Firstly the police issue, I have no problems with the government making reductions when crime rates are falling, even though they've been falling for 20 years and Labour never felt the need to make drastic cuts. What I do have issue with is cuts made to specific areas of policing despite warning by police officers and the police federation that they wouldn't then have the manpower to keep us safe from the kind of specific threats we have witnessed recently. This is irresponsible by the government and has put all our safety in jeopardy. Whilst I'm not in favour, nor is the majority of the country for that matter, of seeing armed police officers universally, I quite readily accept the need for armed response officers available to handle violent situations. The issue however also extends here because the armed response units were some of the most heavily cut.

    Completely agree with you by the way on the whole grammar school issue, the government seem well out of touch with public opinion here.

    The fox hunting issue is relatively minor, but an example again of the government not being in step with what the majority of people want. Even raising this issue at election time seems like a massive exercise in trying to shoot themselves in the foot.

    The nuclear issue is pretty much really a non-issue though. It's fairly straigth forward, most people know that Jeremy Corbyn is opposed to using nuclear weapons. The idea of a weapon that could kill millions of people ever being used is pretty horrific to most people and especially Jeremy. However the Labour Party as a whole are committed to the renewal of Trident and Jeremy accepts this. This means that we will still have a nuclear weapon system, the only difference is that with a Labour government you have a Prime Minister that has given the nation an assurance he would never use it as a first strike weapon against another nation. By contrast the Conservative defence secretary Michael Fallon stated on television he would use our nuclear weapons to launch a first strike against other nations. You have to decide which of these two philosophies is most likely to keep us safe. If you were a foreign power at dispute with the UK and you knew the UK would never nuke you first would you still attack us, conversly if you thought the UK might nuke you regardless would this make you more or less likely to want to attack the UK?

    I would also perhaps disagree with the notion that most people seem richer. Certainly the top 1 or 2 percent may be richer, with the richest seeing their wealth more than double. Yet for most people this certainly isn't the case, most people have faced real terms wage cuts thanks to low or non existent rises and inflation, whilst at the same time they are facing more and more pressure over the cost housing and rising food bills, made much worse by the recent slide in the pound over the last year which looks set to get much worse. This is why so many people are dependent on food banks and so many others now homeless. Local facilities have also been disappearing at an alarming rate due to the drop in spending power of local residents to make them financially viable. You can't make major cuts to the budgets of all the services in an area and expect things to just continue on as normal.

    The last point I want make is that of peception. For what ever reason there are people that seem to think under Jeremy Corbyn a Labour government would be like Communism. This just simply isn't the case, the problem is the focus of politics in the UK has been shifted so far to the right with Parties like UKIP setting the agenda, that sensible social protections that accepted as perfectly normal and responsible across most of Europe are being vilified as Maxism. The reality is that under the Conserative government the UK has been regressing, we haven't invested in our future or core economic areas, there has been no long term structural planning, the only priority has been to protect and increase the wealth of the rich. This has resulted in UK productivity well behind that of the likes of Germany and key sectors we are world leaders in falling back.

    Under a Corbyn led Labour government the UK is going achieve growth in every area of Britain and ensure we remain world leaders in our key sectors. We will be at the fore front of the renewable energy technologies revolution, we will revitalise high-tech manufacturing and ensure that every single part of the UK is contributing to the national economy. A country that is run properly and successfully for everybody, not just keep making cuts to divert more and more of our money into the bank accounts of the richest few whilst whole areas of our country get poorer and our public services start to one by one collapse and fail. The Tories have no plan, Labour has a plan for a high skilled high wage economy where everybody gets richer and we have the tax revenues to pay for world class public services. They wont accept failure or anybody or any part of Britain being left behind, everybody matters and everybody has to succeed under a Labour government.
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    Eve of general election and the Tory press in full throat.
    Would like to know your opinion on how much this will influence voters.
    We weren't expecting Brexit and we weren't expecting Trump. I notice the onion polls are quieter than usual these days.

    To pick up on a few points.
    Food banks. I hear that large numbers of people now retain only a week's savings. There was a time when people would save for emergencies. You can't treat a food bank like going to a supermarket. You can only go a few times every 6 months if you are allowed to.
    I don't see why this should be a political issue. Britain was once a nation of shopkeepers. Like you say, many shops are now boarded up. Instead, we have changed into a nation of supermarket chains and there is a mountain of food everywhere. So much of it that the supermarkets are throwing away huge amounts. I can walk into my local store in the evening and they sell off food for next to nothing. This week a bought 2 items for an evening meal for 0.30. I was brought up in austerity Britain. Soggy wheat bix for breakfast and bread and dripping for tea. We had a proper cooked meal once a week. It was very unusual to see an overweight person. If you saw one you might suspect they were wealthy. Today it is more like the rich are thin and the poor are fat.

    Fox hunting
    . I saw a fox hunt once and the poor animal was fleeing for its life. So I don't condone it, but I'm far more opposed to bird shooting. At least most foxes seem to get away.

    Nuclear
    . Realistically, how can you ever rid the world of these weapons? There would still be some rogue nation like North Korea. All I know is that they have kept the peace for over 70 years.

    Labour and communism. I would not like to see a return to nationalisation. My father who was classic working class used to say that the problem with Labour is nationalisation. They are threatening to bring it back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Eve of general election and the Tory press in full throat.
    Would like to know your opinion on how much this will influence voters.
    We weren't expecting Brexit and we weren't expecting Trump. I notice the onion polls are quieter than usual these days.

    To pick up on a few points.
    Food banks. I hear that large numbers of people now retain only a week's savings. There was a time when people would save for emergencies. You can't treat a food bank like going to a supermarket. You can only go a few times every 6 months if you are allowed to.
    I don't see why this should be a political issue. Britain was once a nation of shopkeepers. Like you say, many shops are now boarded up. Instead, we have changed into a nation of supermarket chains and there is a mountain of food everywhere. So much of it that the supermarkets are throwing away huge amounts. I can walk into my local store in the evening and they sell off food for next to nothing. This week a bought 2 items for an evening meal for 0.30. I was brought up in austerity Britain. Soggy wheat bix for breakfast and bread and dripping for tea. We had a proper cooked meal once a week. It was very unusual to see an overweight person. If you saw one you might suspect they were wealthy. Today it is more like the rich are thin and the poor are fat.

    Fox hunting
    . I saw a fox hunt once and the poor animal was fleeing for its life. So I don't condone it, but I'm far more opposed to bird shooting. At least most foxes seem to get away.

    Nuclear
    . Realistically, how can you ever rid the world of these weapons? There would still be some rogue nation like North Korea. All I know is that they have kept the peace for over 70 years.

    Labour and communism. I would not like to see a return to nationalisation. My father who was classic working class used to say that the problem with Labour is nationalisation. They are threatening to bring it back.
    Hi ox, to answer your first question, I would hope that most UK voters are intelligent enough to ignore the media propaganda given that 80% of our media is now owned by just 5 billionaires.

    However, I fear I maybe being a little optimistic with such a hope. So do I think it will have an affect? Yes on certain people unfortunately I do think this media assault on Labour is likely to have an affect, though suprisingly not so much on Jeremy himself. The rightwing media have slung so much mud at Corbyn already and yet everytime voters see him for themselves on television what they see is a very principled, honest, genuine and quite practical man with a sensible plan to revitalise the our flagging economy and reverse the decline seen in whole swathes of our country in the aftermath of Tory austerity and cuts. This media portrayal doesn't match up with what people can see for themselves and have just served to lower the expectations making him appear even more credible.

    The food bank issue is quite complex but most of those involved with charities providing the food seem to feel there is a direct link to the explosion in the use and/or need for food banks and the cuts & changes made to the welfare system. It breaks down pretty much into two major groups. As we know most people in reciept of benefits in the UK aren't actually unemployed but rather in very low payed jobs or on Zero-hours contracts. What this means is that because of rising living costs and virtually non-exist wage growth, lowest in 70 years, this is the first group that has really struggled and needed to use food banks. The second major group is that of those who have faced benefit sanctioning. This is a practice that has actually saw the UK face heavy international criticism from the United Nations. It has meant that many people without work have been denied any right to any form of income from the state, for upto 3 years in some cases, and have literaly had no money to feed themselves with. This alone has been responsible for many of the crime stastics and of course has led to the use of food banks as people seek a way of feeding themselves.

    Personally I don't like the idea of hurting animals. I do however accept the notoin of hunting but with some reservations, I was brought up being taught that if you killed an animal you ate it, that was the only justification for killing animal. But I will never accept the cruelty involved in terrifying an animal for 'sport'.

    On the nuclear issue, again my own views differ from Jeremy's somewhat. I'm more minded to want the UK to keep some form of nuclear deterent, though I don't necessarily feel that the massive cost of replacing Trident is perhaps the best option or value for money. Smaller tactical battlefield nuclear weapons that don'r rely on a submarine launch and could be use with a number of different systems would perhaps be my prefered choice. Also just for the case of clarity, I want amend my earlier contention that our current Trident missiles were thousands of times more powerful than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Whilst it's true that the Russians do indeed possess weapons of this magnitude our missiles are perhaps only 40 to 50 times more powerful.

    Finally on the issue of nationalisation, I have no problem with the concept of national industries being run for the benefit of the public. Obviously I wish to see them being run better than they were in the 1970's though. What I do think is if you look at our rail and energy sectors they aren't being run currently with best interests of the public at heart and there is perhaps scope to do a far better job. What we need is a modern concept of nationalisation that gives ordinary people a stake but is run properly, once people see that these two things don't have to be mutually exclusive it will make the notion much more popular, but something has to give because our rail network for one gets worse every year and ticket pricing is now ridicously expensive. There is so much scope here for real improvement.
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    Sorry to report that in defiance of my roots I voted for Tez.
    I'm too old to be a revolutionary. At least I think I know what I'll get if the Tories win.
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    Hey ox, don't worry my friend I have no issue with the way other people vote whatsoever. We all have to do what we think is best and nobody should be blamed for that. I have joined a political party and enjoy discussing politics and like engaging in debate but I wouldn't seek to force my opinions on others at most only perhaps seeking to influence and inform them with reasonable debate.

    The polls currently suggest that Theresa May will win and get a majority, if this is the case I hope you get all from such a government that you are hoping for. I am personally hoping that it's a Labour victory or failing this, the Conservatives fail to get a majority.
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    BBC and ITV exit polls both predicting Conservatives as largest party but without an overall majority. Hung parliament looks likely if the exit polls are accurate, though they were way out in the 2015 general election.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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    were you happy with the results?
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    Very happy,but in a schadenfreude kind of way.

    I wanted a hung Parliament. I think the Conservatives(=Tories) definitely got what they deserved but so did the British electorate in my opinion.

    I don't know what happens next .

    The Scots Natiionalists lost ground but are still the most popular party up there and I don't know how that will affect their wish for a Referendum on leaving the UK.
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    I want CHEETO GONE!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    were you happy with the results?
    I'd have been happier with a labour win, but realistically a hung parliament with the Tories losing their majority was the best I expected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    were you happy with the results?
    I'd have been happier with a labour win, but realistically a hung parliament with the Tories losing their majority was the best I expected.
    How long do you think May's coalition with the DUP creationists will last?
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    I doubt it will cause them too much trouble. The DUP know they have to appear responsible to maintain the UK's semi benign view of Unionism in the North of Ireland.

    But it is a very tight situation and if this government (assuming it is Tory/DUP ) does lose a major vote in the Commons then there is a lot at stake.

    My hope is that the DUP will be visible and awkward partners who lose the Tories sympathy in the electorate as a whole.

    Interesting that the Sinn Fein party is abstentionist and in effect is shoring up this Tory government by not taking part in any Parliamentary votes.
    Last edited by geordief; June 10th, 2017 at 05:16 AM.
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    How long do you think May's coalition with the DUP creationists will last?
    As long as they keep their mouths shut! They are only providing 10 seats, as much as the Tories need them if they start making waves I think they'll be gone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    were you happy with the results?
    I agree with Dave, wanted Labour to win but realistically it was going to be a massive ask. Pleased the Tories didn't get a majority, it means a hard Brexit is probably going to be a lot less likely. Theresa May is clinging on to power but not many expect it to last. She's by no means the worst of the Tories but she has to go, already talk of Boris being on maneuvers gathering support to oust her. We shouldn't either discount the Conservatives parachuting in Ruth Davidson (leader of the Scottish Conservatives) to a safe seat and making her the new Prime Minister. She's performed incredibly well in Scotland, not that's a good thing from my ( a Labour Party member's) perspective.
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    After a few days to reflect.

    May's policy of attempting to hit pensioners hard was a near disaster. Her arguments about fox hunting and grammar schools were totally irrelevant.

    More young people voted this time and they seemed to have voted for (old) Labour.
    Anyone born after 1970 would not remember old Labour's attempt to collapse the state in the 1970's. Not only did this give rise to the reign of Thatcher but also the birth of New Labour.
    The failed economic model of old Labour is now what Corbyn (who claims to be the winner even if he lost) is attempting to reintroduce. Young people believe this to be a new utopia. I can forgive them for thinking this, and enough time has now elapsed, and those people that do remember it are now slipping away.
    It should be remembered that history is a mostly a story of stupidity.

    In the resulting chaos, there is talk of a Tory leadership challenge and yet another election. There is one loser here and that is democracy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    After a few days to reflect.

    May's policy of attempting to hit pensioners hard was a near disaster. Her arguments about fox hunting and grammar schools were totally irrelevant.

    More young people voted this time and they seemed to have voted for (old) Labour.
    Anyone born after 1970 would not remember old Labour's attempt to collapse the state in the 1970's. Not only did this give rise to the reign of Thatcher but also the birth of New Labour.
    The failed economic model of old Labour is now what Corbyn (who claims to be the winner even if he lost) is attempting to reintroduce. Young people believe this to be a new utopia. I can forgive them for thinking this, and enough time has now elapsed, and those people that do remember it are now slipping away.
    It should be remembered that history is a mostly a story of stupidity.

    In the resulting chaos, there is talk of a Tory leadership challenge and yet another election. There is one loser here and that is democracy.
    Well in the wake of the general election some interesting facts have come to light. Firstly that according to Conservative insiders everywhere Theresa May went they lost, describing the campaign as a "F**king disaster" and "Bus of failure".

    The Conservatives spent 1,200,000 on social media personal abuse attack adds targeting Jeremy Corbyn.

    The third fact to emerge is that in the 3 days since the election more people have joined the Labour Party than the Conservative Party has members in total, over a 150,000!

    But despite all the propaganda you only have to listen to Jeremy Corbyn to realise he is a quite reasonable normal politician with sensible ideas for our country:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFlfn5_3-IM

    Now contrast that with the record and behaviour of Theresa May and the Conservative government:

    https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/11/...byn-for-video/
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But despite all the propaganda you only have to listen to Jeremy Corbyn to realise he is a quite reasonable normal politician with sensible ideas for our country:
    Much less of a socialist firebrand on the Marr Show.
    But he didn't get the better of Maggie.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhEPyjolGQQ


    Now contrast that with the record and behaviour of Theresa May and the Conservative government
    Off he goes with LGBT rights. See where he comes from.

    I guess one way or another we were going to have a coalition of chaos. It seems we will have a soft Brexit, or even no Brexit.
    I believe we have reached a point where politicians are not respecting the voters. People voted for a hard Brexit.
    Then there's the SNP who disrespected the will of the voters in the Scottish independence referendum.
    A coalition with the Tories propped up by the Lib Dems could be a possibility. It worked well enough the last time, although they would insist on the softest Brexit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But despite all the propaganda you only have to listen to Jeremy Corbyn to realise he is a quite reasonable normal politician with sensible ideas for our country:
    Much less of a socialist firebrand on the Marr Show.
    But he didn't get the better of Maggie.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhEPyjolGQQ


    Now contrast that with the record and behaviour of Theresa May and the Conservative government
    Off he goes with LGBT rights. See where he comes from.

    I guess one way or another we were going to have a coalition of chaos. It seems we will have a soft Brexit, or even no Brexit.
    I believe we have reached a point where politicians are not respecting the voters. People voted for a hard Brexit.
    Then there's the SNP who disrespected the will of the voters in the Scottish independence referendum.
    A coalition with the Tories propped up by the Lib Dems could be a possibility. It worked well enough the last time, although they would insist on the softest Brexit.
    What is the issue with LGBT rights?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Whatever anyone may say, Theresa May did not lose the last general election in the UK. Jeremy Corbyn did not win the last general election in the UK. The Conservative party made a deal with the DUP, that is politics in the UK.
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    I am not qualified to respond to these posts... So I just read them!

    Mea culpa
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I am not qualified to respond to these posts... So I just read them!

    Mea culpa
    Lol, hey babe you are just as qualified as virtually everybody else in the world to respond , most us are just doing our best to form opinions with very limited information often from biased sources. So please should you have any thoughts or opinions they will be given equal consideration as anybody elses. To me you're just one of the guys here anyway


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wilson View Post
    Whatever anyone may say, Theresa May did not lose the last general election in the UK. Jeremy Corbyn did not win the last general election in the UK. The Conservative party made a deal with the DUP, that is politics in the UK.
    http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/...now/ar-BBDudo9

    Just saying, Dave.

    Or perhaps give below a read for a sense of balance:

    www.theneweuropean.co.uk/
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    Mahalo Ascended. I appreciate your kindness. When I feel I can put in my two cents I shall!
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    Don't know how many people like me now wish they hadn't voted Tory. It just goes to show the weakness of the opposition.
    The main argument used against Labour was that there is no such thing as a Magic Money Tree. Yet they soon found 1 billion to hand to the DUP.
    That could have gone to the NHS, along with the 350 million a day when we leave the EU.
    I hear Tez is down at the garden centre on the lookout for a Magic Money Tree. She needs to find it.
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    Why are you suprised at this???
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    People who say they don't like politicians and can't be bothered to vote and then want to bore you with their political opinions are the worst. Worse even than lying politicians.
    Even I tell a lie. It should have read 350 million a week (not a day) we send to the EU, which was itself a lie but it persuaded people to vote for Brexit.
    Floating voters like me do seem to vote for the party of the lesser evil. I had to do the same but because I voted it gives me the power of complaint.
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    Im still waiting to know why you were surprised....
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Political parties of all stripes will find it incredibly hard to not just say whatever it is will carry weight amongst the voting public in general .

    The Tories gained easy traction by claiming that the government should not be siphoning off and then spending the tax paying public's money earned in wages(etc etc).

    After the crash they went on to say that it was vital to balance the books and reduce public borrowings to an ideal zero (if I interpreted correctly).

    As a result public services were squeezed of cash and the public was told that the benefits would be seen in the medium to long term.

    The recent appalling fire in Grenfell, London seems to have highlighted the consequences of this blind restriction on public spending and the mood of the electorate has been judged (with a finger in the wind) to be undergoing something of a sea change.

    All parties respond to this change in mood and some will not understand how they can have supported the previous policy when its consequences now seem so apparent.

    Taxation is a four letter word for many and the Tories exploit that so long as they can to gain political power.

    I doubt that much has changed but we shall see. The (Tory) government is in a weak and uncomfortable place for now but it is still in government.
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    One of the biggest problems for Labour has been this idea that they are somehow completely to blame for the nation's finances. Yes, when Labour left office the UK was spending more than it was receiving in tax receipts, but so were many other developed nations, the world suffered a global financial crisis precipitated by a lack of due diligence into credit default swaps.

    The point is by 2012 many of these other nations were in recovery whilst the UK economy was experiencing a near triple dip recession. Austerity didn't work for us and indeed the entire concept has been largely debunked by economists as being a failure everywhere it was tried. Labour was right all along, instead of cutting our spending in 2010 we should have maintained our spending and continued to invest in our economy.

    The Conservatives managed to get away with imposing the worst public spending cuts for nearly a century, inflicting massive damage to our public services and creating real terms wage cuts because they perpetrated a lie upon on the hard of thinking public. They told people the finances of our nation were like a household budget and that we were spending money we couldn't afford. Many people, unfortunately, believed this and assumed the less we spent the less debt we as a nation would be in. What the Tories should have been honest about though is that our tax receipts are and were dependent upon spending. Spending & taxation in an economy are interlinked you need one to have the other. Our national spending fuels the economy that generates our taxes which in turn pay for all our public spending. When the government spends less there is less circulating in the economy to keep collecting VAT from.

    Conservative 'austerity' has simply allowed the government to take money away from and out of the hands of ordinary and poor people, with the effect they had more available to give to the rich and that the money the rich already had was more valuable because everybody else had less. The rich who have all gotten substantially more wealthy during this period whilst every public service budget has been slashed and workers salaries haven't kept up with inflation, the worst wage growth in 70 years.

    Perhaps the irony now is that because so many Brexit supporters are desperate to find any other reason than Brexit to blame for our rapidly worsening finances that so many of them are awakening to the reality of just how far up the garden path the Tories led them with the supposed necessity for austerity and that somehow it's ordinary and poor people that have to pay for the global financial crash, not the rich people who were making all the money and have continued to do so despite austerity for everybody else.
    Last edited by Ascended; July 8th, 2017 at 06:20 PM.
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    British politics is a mess. Along with the Brexit negotiations.
    Nobody has asked the public what we'd like in the deal.

    My current goal is to get council tax banding scrapped.

    Those of you in the USA might not know what I'm referring to so I'll explain.

    Basically, every household receives a bill every year to pay for services such as bin collections, police, fire, education and such.

    My council tax bill every year is 1,100 and I live in a two bed flat. The houses next to me have a higher rate to pay and people in mansions pay nearly 3 times as much. Simply for doing well.
    I think this is a Robin Hood tax As we are all paying for (the same) services. The size or value of our properties shouldn't come in to it.
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  48. #47  
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    Are they paying a similar total percentage of income towards the tax as you?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Are they paying a similar total percentage of income towards the tax as you?
    All of them?

    Peoples wage varies but that shouldn't come in to it.
    We are billed because we are paying for services in the community. This is the whole point. Once upon a time the rich were privilidged and better protected but this is not the case in the community, or it shouldn't be. Those days are gone. Police patrol rich areas less because crime is virtually non existent. no NIMBYS allowed.
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    Someone HAS to pay for the services, so income and the percentage there of that is charged is very much relevant.

    Are they paying a similar % as you?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  51. #50  
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    The council tax isn't a percentage of income, it's based on the value of the property you are living in (whether you rent it or own it doesn't matter). The percentage of a person's income they pay in council tax can vary widely...
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    Ahhh, that wasn't explained in the opening post.

    Its related to the value of the property, and therefore the amount of possible damage that could be done?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    I'm not sure what the rationale is... It is a tax that pays for the police, the fire service, trash collection and other council expenses, most of these are not dependant on the value of the property as far as I can see. I'm guessing this is the point Hannah is trying to make.
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    Hmmm, then I guess my next question is how,much on average is the total cost of all those every year?
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    It varies from council to council. The page below shows the charges for where I live:

    https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/benefit...tax-will-i-pay
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    The council tax isn't a percentage of income, it's based on the value of the property you are living in (whether you rent it or own it doesn't matter). The percentage of a person's income they pay in council tax can vary widely...
    I am aware of what council tax is for. However , the elephant in the room is in the fact we are paying for services which have nothing to do with property size. Tell me, what does a person in a 3 bedroom house get for paying more council tax than me? The council tax is in no way to maintain homes, it is merely for services - of which we all get the same access to. Well, that said, somebody who sends their child to private school (paying fees) still has to pay for education in their community.
    Look at supermarkets and shops who have to put up with shoplifters and crime more-so than most so require Police services more than the average person. I singled out Police in this because they get the biggest cut from council tax. Fire service get approx 1/3 of overall budget according to my bill.
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    Your comprehension issues are showing again. I was clarifying for Paleoichneum and if you get someone to explain my posts to you you will see I was agreeing with you.

    Frankly you've just reminded me why I stopped reading your posts before the forum went down...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Your comprehension issues are showing again. I was clarifying for Paleoichneum and if you get someone to explain my posts to you you will see I was agreeing with you.

    Frankly you've just reminded me why I stopped reading your posts before the forum went down...
    Me? I wasn't on here when the forum went down. I left in 2014 along with others.
    Can't think why so many left or why your forum would experience issues. Did somebody on the forum upset somebody important?
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  59. #58  
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    Sorry, can't be bothered with you.
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  60. #59  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    The council tax isn't a percentage of income, it's based on the value of the property you are living in (whether you rent it or own it doesn't matter). The percentage of a person's income they pay in council tax can vary widely...
    I am aware of what council tax is for. However , the elephant in the room is in the fact we are paying for services which have nothing to do with property size. Tell me, what does a person in a 3 bedroom house get for paying more council tax than me? The council tax is in no way to maintain homes, it is merely for services - of which we all get the same access to. Well, that said, somebody who sends their child to private school (paying fees) still has to pay for education in their community.
    Look at supermarkets and shops who have to put up with shoplifters and crime more-so than most so require Police services more than the average person. I singled out Police in this because they get the biggest cut from council tax. Fire service get approx 1/3 of overall budget according to my bill.
    It seems to be boiling down to "I want to say where my money is applied, not someone who works in government".

    Am I right?

    Edit: As a note on the private school family. That is a choice to NOT use the public school they have a right to, so they accept the additional fee.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  61. #60  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    It varies from council to council. The page below shows the charges for where I live:

    https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/benefit...tax-will-i-pay
    Okay, how many properties are in the council that pay the tax?

    The thing Im driving towards is that what happens to the total tax when the value scaling is removed and it becomes a flat rate across the board.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  62. #61  
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    The number of properties varies from council to council, all properties pay the tax with the exception of students and people receiving certain benefits. I don't have an answer to your question, I guess it would involve a freedom of information request to the council in question... But in the area I live there are more properties in the lower bands than the higher ones...
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  63. #62  
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    So as I see it, the initial proposal to change to a single $ across the council, would end up raising the individual tax for each lower income property.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  64. #63  
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    That makes sense, if the higher rate payers pay less the lower rate payers will have to pick up the shortfall...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    That makes sense, if the higher rate payers pay less the lower rate payers will have to pick up the shortfall...
    Not really. What about homes that are inherited?
    Earnings shouldn't come in to it.

    It is nothing but a greed tax placed on society by the powers that be.
    I'll refer you to a post I wrote yesterday about strange activity, if the Police don't know wtf is going on then why am I paying their wages?
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  66. #65  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    That makes sense, if the higher rate payers pay less the lower rate payers will have to pick up the shortfall...
    Not really. What about homes that are inherited?
    Earnings shouldn't come in to it.

    It is nothing but a greed tax placed on society by the powers that be.
    I'll refer you to a post I wrote yesterday about strange activity, if the Police don't know wtf is going on then why am I paying their wages?
    The HOW exactly are those services going to be funded evenly. Its not a greed tax to actually want a funded fire dept.

    Police dispatch has nothing at all to do with the tax, and its a red herring to bring into the discussion.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  67. #66  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    That makes sense, if the higher rate payers pay less the lower rate payers will have to pick up the shortfall...
    Not really. What about homes that are inherited?
    Earnings shouldn't come in to it.

    It is nothing but a greed tax placed on society by the powers that be.
    I'll refer you to a post I wrote yesterday about strange activity, if the Police don't know wtf is going on then why am I paying their wages?
    The HOW exactly are those services going to be funded evenly. Its not a greed tax to actually want a funded fire dept.

    Police dispatch has nothing at all to do with the tax, and its a red herring to bring into the discussion.
    What?

    You live in the USA.

    Police dispatch isn't the issue, the fact Police can't explain or even do anything about something that I can only describe as invisible technology is the concern.

    Anybody familiar with energy beams/weapons?
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  68. #67  
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    Really?

    I'm familiar with pseudoscience woo claims that they exists, and understand that SCIENCE shows they are,bullocks.


    That also utterly irrelevant to you opening post, again.

    My points still stand.

    My location is irrelevant
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  69. #68  
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    Not really. What about homes that are inherited?
    Earnings shouldn't come in to it.

    It is nothing but a greed tax placed on society by the powers that be.
    I'll refer you to a post I wrote yesterday about strange activity, if the Police don't know wtf is going on then why am I paying their wages?
    You really need to learn to read

    Also, you are obviously a nutcase, the sooner you are banned (as you were before the forum rollback) the better...
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  70. #69  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Not really. What about homes that are inherited?
    Earnings shouldn't come in to it.

    It is nothing but a greed tax placed on society by the powers that be.
    I'll refer you to a post I wrote yesterday about strange activity, if the Police don't know wtf is going on then why am I paying their wages?
    You really need to learn to read

    Also, you are obviously a nutcase, the sooner you are banned (as you were before the forum rollback) the better...
    So many on here who like to throw their weight around (weight they don't have).

    Let them ban me. I will make sure something is done about the way this forum is run. Because, well, I can.

    I await a response from admin. Which, should be interesting.
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  71. #70  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Not really. What about homes that are inherited?
    Earnings shouldn't come in to it.

    It is nothing but a greed tax placed on society by the powers that be.
    I'll refer you to a post I wrote yesterday about strange activity, if the Police don't know wtf is going on then why am I paying their wages?
    You really need to learn to read

    Also, you are obviously a nutcase, the sooner you are banned (as you were before the forum rollback) the better...
    So many on here who like to throw their weight around (weight they don't have).

    Let them ban me. I will make sure something is done about the way this forum is run. Because, well, I can.

    I await a response from admin. Which, should be interesting.
    Admin is not active at all with the forum, as demonstrated by the 4+ months the site was offline, you aren't going to GET a,response.


    Also you are ignoring the responses to you, not acceptable
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  72. #71  
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    I can't be bothered with crazy...
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  73. #72  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post


    Admin is not active at all with the forum, as demonstrated by the 4+ months the site was offline, you aren't going to GET a,response.


    Also you are ignoring the responses to you, not acceptable
    Actually I filled out the contact form (to ask for a like button) this afternoon. Far more in hope than expectation but who knows perhaps there is someone is at the other end since the site came back this time.

    If that is the admin we are talking about. We also have Kalster and Markus who are admins.
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  74. #73  
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    MH and K are admins (lower case) and dont have any code access. ADMIN (upper case) is the user profile for the sure owner(s) and the only one with code access. Also ADMIN is totally off the grid and never interacts here
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  75. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    MH and K are admins (lower case) and dont have any code access. ADMIN (upper case) is the user profile for the sure owner(s) and the only one with code access. Also ADMIN is totally off the grid and never interacts here
    So why did the forum come back? It can't have been an automatic process can it? There were 3 of the owner's sites that came back more or less simultaneously (I am not sure if they had crashed simultaneously as well)

    If the owner (or the web master ) put the site back up perhaps they are contactable with perseverance (Kalster managed it once after a long period of trying)
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  76. #75  
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    They didnt crash, I think it was they didnt get renewed. After renewal they were necroed back to life from archive,copies from what I saw.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Yes it could be that.The hosting account could have gone overdue.

    Still beats me why the owner consistently doesn't respond to emails.
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    On the subject of council tax, no one seems to have pointed out that council tax only pays for about one quarter of the cost of providing the services referenced by others. The balance comes from central government from other tax revenues. This point is made on the wikipedia page and sourced from this useful document that addresses several of the issues raised in this thread.
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