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Thread: Muslims the new Holocaust?

  1. #1 Muslims the new Holocaust? 
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    Is it just me or are Muslims getting as much hate as Jews got leading up to the Holocaust?

    1. They're mocked on a daily basis.
    2. International security is very discriminatory towards them. Deny it all you like but Muslims are 99% more likely to be stopped for a security check at airports than non-Muslims. Governments actually allow this.
    3. The common image that pops to the average person's head when they think of Muslims is Al-qaeda, much like how the common portrayal of Jews was of money-grabbing misers. Both stereotypes are inaccurate.

    Obviously, given the state of the world's finance, no country would want to start a global war against Muslims but you can't deny that they are being unfairly discriminated against. Why do we let this happen in this PC 21st century?


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    I'm unfamiliar with any Jewish terrorist organizations.


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    I'm unfamiliar with any Jewish terrorist organizations.
    Don't know of any currently, but there used to be a couple of spectacularly nasty groups. Menachem Begin (Irgun Zvei Leumi)

    As for unfairness in the treatment of Muslims, my heart sinks. I underlies a lot of the vile mistreatment my own country uses against desperate refugees and there's a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment simmering beneath our apparently easy-going attitude.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    The OP makes a good point. I agree.
    ~ I have traveled these parts of the world where extreme difference is found.. Different cultures, different religions,
    China ( I lived there ) Dubai and Doha. , and most of India's Southern regions.. All that is required is TOLERANCE.
    I spent some four years working out of Dubai.. and found the Muslims I encountered were wonderful people. Warm and welcoming, friendly and piece full. Asking visiting people to be simply respectful was never a issue for me. Some of the cultural differences were sometimes hard to comply with but understanding that thousands of years of culture can not be just wiped aside.
    I was never challenged for being atheist.. but avoided any fundamentalist groups..
    ~ The issue with the customs and flight security problems are directly attributed to the 'Fundamentalist Group' All religions seem to have them to varying degree's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    the Muslims I encountered were wonderful people. Warm and welcoming, friendly and piece full.
    I'm not taking sides here and I'm certainly not telling you you're wrong, but haven't Muslims been fighting for thousands of years? Even the crusades ended, But
    Muslims still fight or at least that's the label they've had long before 9/11.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    haven't Muslims been fighting for thousands of years?
    Much as Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox christians having been fighting against others, pagans, heathens, Muslims, anyone they don't like (and each other for even longer in the case of Catholic and Orthodox christians.)
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    1. The crusades should never have started.
    2. Where is there piece ? I would be careful with the labels... The west is not so clean.
    A history of invade and conquer..
    ~ This 'new' threat due to *Sunni Fundamentalists.. is not a Muslim issue.
    *( unsure of the correct spelling of Suni )
    It's my understanding they are a Northern province group, both Syrian and Iraq.
    ~ That they are Muslim is like saying Catholics are Christian. Well yea,.. and so what ?
    That they are not of the same faith as you does not threaten you does it ?
    That they are Nut Bar Crazy is the issue..Fundamentalists are the problem.. regardless of the faith..
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    I can only speak to a very local mindset, but where I live the term Muslim is a dirty word. It's probably conditioning due to the fact that all we ever hear about are "Muslim terrorist groups". Muslim is constantly attached to other terrible words. While I don't posit that these groups are not Muslim (though certainly a corruption of the religion), our lack of distinction between the different terms has led us to assume Muslim is a bad thing.

    I know it's affected me because I take second glances now when I see people in traditional Middle Eastern garb. Even the Sikh at our local Meijer gets sidelong glances, likely because of his turbans. I'm a little ashamed of myself every time I make a judgement like that, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    the Muslims I encountered were wonderful people. Warm and welcoming, friendly and piece full.
    I'm not taking sides here and I'm certainly not telling you you're wrong, but haven't Muslims been fighting for thousands of years? Even the crusades ended, But
    Muslims still fight or at least that's the label they've had long before 9/11.
    Yes, Muslim's have a history of violence.
    So do Christians. The Crusades were a Christian battle. Adolf Hitler (commonly known as the most violent man of modern times) was also a Christian, so yeah. Only recently have Protestants and Catholics (both Christians) stopped fighting in Northern Ireland, although some extremists still continue to this day.
    I'm not familiar with Jewish history, but they have also had violent patches (such as the Battle of Jerusalem.)

    TL;DR Muslims have a history of violence. So do the other major religions. The most famous of all wars was caused by a Christian (Hitler).
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Is it just me or are Muslims getting as much hate as Jews got leading up to the Holocaust?
    Perhaps in your part of the world, but not mine.

    Ethnic Malays make up close to fifteen percentage of the local population, and while I can't speak for others, I neither have strong negative feelings for Malays who are often muslims nor ethnic Jews. Some of my closest and longest friends are Malays who are muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    1. They're mocked on a daily basis.
    Not here, and even if some people do mock them, these people are in the minority.

    Even now, muslims in Singapore are observing the ramadan with ritual fasting, and there is even a yearly food and apparel bazaar within three minutes walking distance from where I live. Although me and my muslim friends often have a get together couple of times a year, we do make it a point to have one during this period of the year to catch up. Our group comprises of me (a Chinese practioner of freethought), two close Malay muslim friends, and another who is also a catholic Eurasian.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    2. International security is very discriminatory towards them. Deny it all you like but Muslims are 99% more likely to be stopped for a security check at airports than non-Muslims. Governments actually allow this.
    This I have heard from one of my muslim friends who had traveled abroad some years ago for a music festival. He was rather annoyed to say the least when extensively interviewed at the immigration checkpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    3. The common image that pops to the average person's head when they think of Muslims is Al-qaeda, much like how the common portrayal of Jews was of money-grabbing misers. Both stereotypes are inaccurate.
    Frequent perpetuation of racial stereotypes only takes hold if one is unfamiliar with the culture in question. That and when the mind is lazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Why do we let this happen in this PC 21st century?
    Not every government does. If it bothers you, speak up.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    That they are not of the same faith as you does not threaten you does it ?
    I don't belong to a Jesus Club. so, no

    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    That they are Nut Bar Crazy is the issue..Fundamentalists are the problem.. regardless of the faith..
    Very true.
    I don't really know much about the history of the middle east and their culture. Just the extremely accurate and in no way slanted bullet points I've picked up here and there from the US news.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    I've done a considerable amount of travel as well and agree with Astromark. My encounters with Muslims are pretty extensive including living with the Iraqi military; they were mostly peaceable wanting the same things people all over the world want...to raise their families in peace. Though dozens know I was a-religious, it was never an issue and I was welcome into their lives.

    Outside of the US and a few times in Europe I don't think there's a strong bias against them. And it is unfortunate the US media does such a poor job of educating the public (their supposed purpose) and instead emphasizes the more violent sides of Islam, while ignoring that most of the Muslim nations have a lot lower violence than in the US and been involved in far fewer military conflicts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Is it just me or are Muslims getting as much hate as Jews got leading up to the Holocaust?

    1. They're mocked on a daily basis.
    2. International security is very discriminatory towards them. Deny it all you like but Muslims are 99% more likely to be stopped for a security check at airports than non-Muslims. Governments actually allow this.
    Where did you find this 99% statistic? If most people attempting to blow up planes have been radical Muslims, doesn't it make sense to look there first?
    3. The common image that pops to the average person's head when they think of Muslims is Al-qaeda, much like how the common portrayal of Jews was of money-grabbing misers. Both stereotypes are inaccurate.
    Maybe the common image is because there are news reports of radical Muslims burning churches, kidnapping people, threatening journalists for insulting the prophet, and so forth. Don't you want the news reported?
    Obviously, given the state of the world's finance, no country would want to start a global war against Muslims but you can't deny that they are being unfairly discriminated against. Why do we let this happen in this PC 21st century?
    Are you equally concerned about Muslims discriminating against other religions?
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    Most of the violence today involving Moslems is within the arab world, particularly Syria and Iraq. The participants on all sides call themselves Moslem. Is it a religious issue or simply an attempt to assert political power, using religion as an excuse?

    Iraq: ISIS vs. Shia government.
    Syria: Assad (Alawite) vs. ISIS vs. "secular" Moslems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Where did you find this 99% statistic? If most people attempting to blow up planes have been radical Muslims, doesn't it make sense to look there first?
    Not really very logical considering that probably less than one in a million Muslims are involved in terrorism in any way. Given its so poorly targeted no investigation should "start there."

    At least the US the vast majority of terrorism is done by non Muslims, some nearly 95% by a recent FBI report.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Where did you find this 99% statistic? If most people attempting to blow up planes have been radical Muslims, doesn't it make sense to look there first?
    Not really very logical considering that probably less than one in a million Muslims are involved in terrorism in any way. Given its so poorly targeted no investigation should "start there."

    At least the US the vast majority of terrorism is done by non Muslims, some nearly 95% by a recent FBI report.
    The subject was airport security. If you look at this list, you will notice that a disproportionate number of airliner bombings in recent years have been by Muslim extremists. So, if you want to prevent airplane bombings, it makes sense to monitor radical Muslims. If you prefer political correctness to stopping airplane bombs, then you will not pay any special heed to Muslim extremists. And what about that 99% statistic?
    Timeline of airliner bombing attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    I didn't dispute that most recent airline hijackings have been by Muslims. My point is by a ridiculous margin Muslims are not associated with Terrorism and any routine or heightened searches at Airports just for being a Muslim is not logical in anyway given the odds. It has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything with basic civil rights that don't assume folks are guilty by association, or even suspect in this case. You cannot rationalize any more than an increase of searching another one of a million more Muslims than other types of people.

    If there's other supporting evidence the might warrant more than confirmation of their ID, than and only than does it become reasonable to search those specific named people at a higher rate than other people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I didn't dispute that most recent airline hijackings have been by Muslims.

    My point is by a ridiculous margin Muslims are not associated with Terrorism and any routine or heightened searches at Airports just for being a Muslim is not logical in anyway given the odds.
    Using the term hijackings is a brush off.
    People can and do hijack planes for various reasons, usually for local politics or personal self preservation.
    Muslim extremists blow up planes, hold passengers hostage for trade, and now use planes as weapons.
    Originally, all of the attackers were from the Middle East. Now of course we have recruitment from Western countries.
    The onus of this is on the Muslim extremists, who unfortunately are difficult to identify other than being Muslims.
    Until such a time as you can implement a security device that can simply and accurately identify only persons of ill will, those who feel discriminated against and mocked by current reality-based threat assessment methods ought to defend themselves by doing all that they can to stop the extremism of their brethren.

    This issue (minus the planes) has been repeated many times with various groups in history.
    Is it unfortunate? Certainly, there are always innocents adversely affected.
    What can realistically be done about it? That should be the issue, and staying realistic.

    If Eskimo grannies were blowing up planes, guess who would be scrutinized at the airport.
    Reality is what it is.
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    The title of this thread really should be "Muslims the new scapegoats." "Holocaust" is an emotionally charged term in reference to attempted genocide.
    Muslims are no where near a "Holocaust."
    Scapegoating of the Jews lead to the Holocaust. They weren't "holocausted" and then killed.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    Using the term hijackings is a brush off.
    People can and do hijack planes for various reasons, usually for local politics or personal self preservation.
    Muslim extremists blow up planes, hold passengers hostage for trade, and now use planes as weapons.
    Originally, all of the attackers were from the Middle East. Now of course we have recruitment from Western countries.
    The onus of this is on the Muslim extremists, who unfortunately are difficult to identify other than being Muslims.
    Until such a time as you can implement a security device that can simply and accurately identify only persons of ill will, those who feel discriminated against and mocked by current reality-based threat assessment methods ought to defend themselves by doing all that they can to stop the extremism of their brethren.

    This issue (minus the planes) has been repeated many times with various groups in history.
    Is it unfortunate? Certainly, there are always innocents adversely affected.
    What can realistically be done about it? That should be the issue, and staying realistic..
    LOL. I hope you are kidding. Do you know how many terrorist have been stopped by the TSA..... ZERO.
    While tens of millions have been unfairly and grossly and disproportionality and irrationally scrutinized for an astonishingly small chance that one is an extremist. The entire thing is a propaganda driven scam by the government at the cost of liberty--exactly the opposite response a rational based people should be doing. And in the process we've managed to divide the nation and give the wrong impression to an already extremely ignorant Americans--positively disgusting.
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    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.

    If you're on America soil rooting for the opposing team, you may not be committing a crime exactly, but you are rightly causing whatever suspicion comes your way. Only those who fully and uncompromisingly condemn terrorism deserve to be given "the benefit of the doubt". If you half way praise them, then you've pretty much used up all your doubt right there. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "I would feel justified in harming you", and then at the same time expect people to unconditionally assume you won't harm them.

    If the Muslim world would, with one accord, fully disown Al Qaeda, and Mullahs around the world declare that those men will go to Muslim hell for their actions if they don't desist immediately - then I would believe that most Muslims are peaceful.

    I have yet to see a fatwa. A fatwa would be evidence that they're "calling off the dogs" so to speak. But so far no credible attempt appears to have been made.


    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    haven't Muslims been fighting for thousands of years?
    Much as Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox christians having been fighting against others, pagans, heathens, Muslims, anyone they don't like (and each other for even longer in the case of Catholic and Orthodox christians.)
    The first interaction between Muslims and Christians in history was the conquest of Spain. But for one very fortunate battle, it's likely the invaders would also have taken France, and possibly all the rest of Europe.

    So there is no ambiguity about who started it. Europe learned early on that their very existence was at stake and acted accordingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    LOL. I hope you are kidding. Do you know how many terrorist have been stopped by the TSA..... ZERO.
    While tens of millions have been unfairly and grossly and disproportionality and irrationally scrutinized for an astonishingly small chance that one is an extremist. The entire thing is a propaganda driven scam by the government at the cost of liberty--exactly the opposite response a rational based people should be doing. And in the process we've managed to divide the nation and give the wrong impression to an already extremely ignorant Americans--positively disgusting.
    Why would I kid? In an age where a slipup or opportunity missed could cost hundreds to thousands of lives, propping up your opinion with words like "unfairly and grossly and disproportionality and irrationally scrutinized for an astonishingly small chance that one is an extremist" is irrationally over the top.

    All travelers deserve to be treated fairly and respectfully. This does not extend to not being identifiable, not being searched, not being held if acting suspiciously... I do not really care about the vociferous complaints of the indignant, I have seen that many times from many people.

    I am as certain that some Muslims have been mistreated as I am that people are people. These are individual cases and every effort should be made to stop such mistreatment.

    Having read many science fiction novels over some 45 years, one has to consider where this is going. One nut job could take out a whole space station or off-world colony, or possibly even a planet. How do the odds scale in this case?

    Perhaps you could give figures on acceptable losses? Such would be expected if screening simply dropped to "Thank you sir, your ID appears to be in order!" Good security could catch a terrorist, but is most likely to deter them.

    Considering bombs placed in airplane cargo holds, even a terrorist detector at the boarding gate would not be enough. But it would be a really good start and would presumably alleviate your concerns. If it worked it should be used on everyone entering Airport property.

    In the meantime, TSA can look through my luggage, my shoes, and even up my asshole if they have a good reason. Better safe than sorry, you never know when I might whack out.
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    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.
    Just how loudly and strongly did Catholic priests in the US and around the world criticise the actions of the IRA?

    As I recall the times when the IRA was a scourge on London's cities, Catholic priests and parishioners alike were pretty reticent to categorically denounce their Irish fellow Catholics. There were even plenty of places, in Australia and the USA at least, where it was quite common to have fund-raising events to help out "our brothers" in their campaigns. The fact that a fair amount of that money finished up in the hands of gun runners and camps training people in bomb-making was glossed over.
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    Oh dear. The IRA was a scourge on London and several other British cities ...
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Most of the violence today involving Moslems is within the arab world, particularly Syria and Iraq. The participants on all sides call themselves Moslem. Is it a religious issue or simply an attempt to assert political power, using religion as an excuse?

    Iraq: ISIS vs. Shia government.
    Syria: Assad (Alawite) vs. ISIS vs. "secular" Moslems.
    Thanks for this 'Mathman' you have helped me understand.. and spell
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.

    If you're on America soil rooting for the opposing team, you may not be committing a crime exactly, but you are rightly causing whatever suspicion comes your way. Only those who fully and uncompromisingly condemn terrorism deserve to be given "the benefit of the doubt". If you half way praise them, then you've pretty much used up all your doubt right there. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "I would feel justified in harming you", and then at the same time expect people to unconditionally assume you won't harm them.
    We should have little white cards for tourists who would-be christian extremist visitors at the airport to check a box declaring that they have not and will not engage abortion clinic bombings when visiting or in the midst of transit through Singapore. I'm sure that would work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The first interaction between Muslims and Christians in history was the conquest of Spain. But for one very fortunate battle, it's likely the invaders would also have taken France, and possibly all the rest of Europe.

    So there is no ambiguity about who started it. Europe learned early on that their very existence was at stake and acted accordingly.
    Starting shortly after Muhammad's death, expansionist caliphates invaded:
    633 Persia
    634 Jerusalem (First conquest of a Christian city)
    636 Iran
    637 Syria
    663 Mesopotamia
    639 Armenia
    639 Egypt
    640 North Africa
    654 Cyprus
    662 Afghanistan
    664 Pakistan
    674 Byzantine Empire
    711 Hispania (Spain)
    717 Gaul (France)
    717 Byzantine Empire again
    736 Eastern Georgia
    820 Crete
    827 Southern Italy
    1060 Anatolia (Turkey)
    1200 India

    Pope Urban II launched the First Crusade at the end of 1095 at the behest of Anatolia (Turkey) which had been Christian since the end of the Roman Empire.
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    imo sinti/roma are being far more discriminated. but maybe because they have no real political voice, and compared to the over-all population are a majority, noone hears about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.
    Just how loudly and strongly did Catholic priests in the US and around the world criticise the actions of the IRA?

    As I recall the times when the IRA was a scourge on London's cities, Catholic priests and parishioners alike were pretty reticent to categorically denounce their Irish fellow Catholics. There were even plenty of places, in Australia and the USA at least, where it was quite common to have fund-raising events to help out "our brothers" in their campaigns. The fact that a fair amount of that money finished up in the hands of gun runners and camps training people in bomb-making was glossed over.

    And if Irish Catholics in the British Isles were to find themselves the subjects of extra police scrutiny as a result - then that scrutiny would be justified.

    I'm not proposing that we round up all the Muslims and put them together in a detention camp. I'm merely suggesting that they don't deserve a "benefit of the doubt" at security checkpoints.

    It's a pure insanity to assume the best about someone who is telling you straight to your face that they're thinking favorably about you coming to harm.
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    I do not understand why the good Muslims don't get rid of the bad Muslims themselves. instead the good Muslims are used as human shields and give hiding places for the bad Muslims to shelter in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    And if Irish Catholics in the British Isles were to find themselves the subjects of extra police scrutiny as a result - then that scrutiny would be justified.

    I'm not proposing that we round up all the Muslims and put them together in a detention camp. I'm merely suggesting that they don't deserve a "benefit of the doubt" at security checkpoints.

    It's a pure insanity to assume the best about someone who is telling you straight to your face that they're thinking favorably about you coming to harm.
    Even if a sizable portion of the muslim world publicly denounces their extremist brethren; would it really change how nationality, racial, and religious profiling takes place at immigration checkpoints when attempting to screen and deter potentially dangerous individuals? Even the collective christian world have their very own terrorists and murders on their own individual native soil, and they aren't subjected to mildly similar treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I do not understand why the good Muslims don't get rid of the bad Muslims themselves. instead the good Muslims are used as human shields and give hiding places for the bad Muslims to shelter in.
    It might surprise you to know that the middle eastern muslims aren't representative of all muslims around the world. Just like how catholics aren't representative of all christians around the world, and how creationists aren't representative that all christians rejecting evolutionary biology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    All travelers deserve to be treated fairly and respectfully.
    but they're not. as you've rationalized through much of your post why it's ok that they're not.



    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    In the meantime, TSA can look through my luggage, my shoes, and even up my asshole if they have a good reason. Better safe than sorry, you never know when I might whack out.
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." -Ben Franklin
    You and your kind are screwing up society for the rest of us. #KeeptheTSAoutofmyasshole!!
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.

    If you're on America soil rooting for the opposing team, you may not be committing a crime exactly, but you are rightly causing whatever suspicion comes your way. Only those who fully and uncompromisingly condemn terrorism deserve to be given "the benefit of the doubt". If you half way praise them, then you've pretty much used up all your doubt right there. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "I would feel justified in harming you", and then at the same time expect people to unconditionally assume you won't harm them.
    We should have little white cards for tourists who would-be christian extremist visitors at the airport to check a box declaring that they have not and will not engage abortion clinic bombings when visiting or in the midst of transit through Singapore. I'm sure that would work.
    I thought along the same lines of making "those" people have to carry around little Wile E. Coyote signs that say "not a terrorist" ought to fix all that.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm not proposing that we round up all the Muslims and put them together in a detention camp.
    Not yet, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm merely suggesting that they don't deserve a "benefit of the doubt" at security checkpoints.
    I'm completely disappointed in you Kojax. Who are "they"? you don't know any of the people you're talking about stopping. you're profiling based on looks. disgusting. Let's profile rich people in suits. they've done more damage to the country/world than any dude in a turban or woman in a burka.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    It's a pure insanity to assume the best about someone who is telling you straight to your face that they're thinking favorably about you coming to harm.
    Nobody is telling you that, specifically none of those people who are flying. and if they do think that, they're not going to tell you that so stopping them is hardly an effective security measure. discrimination is no stellar policy to adopt.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I do not understand why the good Muslims don't get rid of the bad Muslims themselves.
    D'Uh, cause they're "good" Muslims!! Good people aren't violent like that.



    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    instead the good Muslims are used as human shields and give hiding places for the bad Muslims to shelter in.
    No, those are still "bad" Muslims.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I thought along the same lines of making "those" people have to carry around little Wile E. Coyote signs that say "not a terrorist" ought to fix all that.
    Perhaps a "I'm Not With Them" Parade? For people who aren't terrorists, abortion clinic bombers, creationists, flat-earthers, etc.

    These people should be required to come clean. If you declare you aren't "with them", we'll believe you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I do not understand why the good Muslims don't get rid of the bad Muslims themselves. instead the good Muslims are used as human shields and give hiding places for the bad Muslims to shelter in.
    They often do. Hence why some of the international terrorist groups have to operate outside their native countries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.
    I have never heard a Muslim say anything of the sort in the real world. All the stories about Muslims not rejecting Al Qaeda have come from the Internet. The famous "Arabs cheered when the plane flew into the towers" urban myth comes to mind.

    If you're on America soil rooting for the opposing team, you may not be committing a crime exactly, but you are rightly causing whatever suspicion comes your way. Only those who fully and uncompromisingly condemn terrorism deserve to be given "the benefit of the doubt".
    In that case, all Arabs that I have ever met deserve the benefit of the doubt.
    I have yet to see a fatwa. A fatwa would be evidence that they're "calling off the dogs" so to speak. But so far no credible attempt appears to have been made.
    Here's just one:
    =========
    Reminder: Fatwa Issued Against Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida

    Posted on September 22, 2007





    In light of the recent involvement of Muslim professionals (i.e. doctors) in acts of terrorism, I am reprinting this fatwa issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain against Osama Bin Laden, and the fatwas by the US Fiqh Council of North America and British Muslim clerics against religious extremism and terrorism as a reminder to all.
    According to the Associated Press, the fatwa issued on the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings, calls bin Laden an apostate and urging others to denounce the al-Qaida leader:
    The ruling was issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the country’s 1 million-member Muslim community. The commission represents 200 or so mostly Sunni mosques, or about 70 percent of all mosques in Spain.
    [/quote]


    ======================
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    I was raised as a Muslim, and left the faith at an early age. I think it's important to make a distinction between Islam and Muslims. I don't think it is right to harass Muslims, most of which are just ordinary folk just trying to get by (like with any group), and can be classified as bigotry. However, I think we should all be able to criticize and mock Islam. I have personally suffered a lot at the hands of hard-line religious practice, and it would be a shame if these views weren't being challenged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cthulhu View Post
    however, i think we should all be able to criticize and mock <any religion>. I have personally suffered a lot at the hands of hard-line religious practice, and it would be a shame if these views weren't being challenged.
    fify
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    All travelers deserve to be treated fairly and respectfully.
    but they're not. as you've rationalized through much of your post why it's ok that they're not.



    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    In the meantime, TSA can look through my luggage, my shoes, and even up my asshole if they have a good reason. Better safe than sorry, you never know when I might whack out.
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." -Ben Franklin
    You and your kind are screwing up society for the rest of us. #KeeptheTSAoutofmyasshole!!
    Rationalization is not a bad thing. You have every opportunity here to prove your point, yet you do not.
    Arabs and other Muslims are by no means the only people that have ever been "profiled". This does not mean that they should be treated badly, that is wrong. If you have specific incidents in mind you should share them. Fairly and respectfully has limits that should not be abridged to make an incident. You cannot get a drivers license if you will not be photographed. This is the law of the land (from rationalization), not an affront on Islam.

    I (and my kind) are not screwing up anything. I do not consider airport security screening a loss of liberty at all. Perhaps you could explain? Do you lose the liberty to smuggle drugs? bombs? other weapons? what?

    Go dig up ole Ben and see what he makes of modern times. Even in his time people were searched for documents, weapons, and contraband. Did you really think that this is what his quote applies to? How sad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    You cannot get a drivers license if you will not be photographed. This is the law of the land (from rationalization), not an affront on Islam.
    That is not a binding law on the states, and 13 states have not added it to their laws (yet). It's done as a condition to receive federal transportation funding support. Only last year did I finally get a photo driver's licence. It's also not a good example of profiling because it's not targeted at any one group or demographic, but for everybody. The issue is using the 1 in a million chance that a Muslim might be an extremist as a rationalism for searching them more often than other folks--even when more than a decade of such ridiculous policies haven't discovered a single attempt. Such fear fostering by any government is divisive, a tremendous waste of money and have killed thousands (~500/yr...more than died on 9/11) who've decided to drive rather than put up with the unnecessary airport delays.

    I used to travel quite a bit...but soon ran out of the metal declaration of independence cards I used to carry around--something that usually got me an extra question or two until I'd remind them I was a military officer sworn to protect their rights to liberty and freedom and asking them if they really wanted that attention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    All travelers deserve to be treated fairly and respectfully.
    but they're not. as you've rationalized through much of your post why it's ok that they're not.



    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    In the meantime, TSA can look through my luggage, my shoes, and even up my asshole if they have a good reason. Better safe than sorry, you never know when I might whack out.
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." -Ben Franklin
    You and your kind are screwing up society for the rest of us. #KeeptheTSAoutofmyasshole!!
    Rationalization is not a bad thing.
    except when it's not honest

    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    You have every opportunity here to prove your point, yet you do not.
    Because you are blind doesn't mean I have failed to provide evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    Arabs and other Muslims are by no means the only people that have ever been "profiled".
    So, it happens to others makes it ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    This does not mean that they should be treated badly, that is wrong.
    by the very act of profiling means you are treating them differently. How do you not understand this?


    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    If you have specific incidents in mind you should share them.
    ???


    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    Fairly and respectfully has limits that should not be abridged to make an incident. You cannot get a drivers license if you will not be photographed. This is the law of the land (from rationalization), not an affront on Islam.
    what is your point? These last two don't seem to have any connection to the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    I (and my kind) are not screwing up anything. I do not consider airport security screening a loss of liberty at all. Perhaps you could explain? Do you lose the liberty to smuggle drugs? bombs? other weapons? what?
    I lose my innocence before being proven guilty. at the airport I'm guilty until proven innocent. And people like you (and your kind) are screwing that up. Gleefully embracing it because, "I have nothing to hide" which is so ridiculously beside the point it's insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    Go dig up ole Ben and see what he makes of modern times. Even in his time people were searched for documents, weapons, and contraband. Did you really think that this is what his quote applies to? How sad.
    This quote applies to any situation where you're giving up your liberty under promise for some "protection." Asinine.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.
    Al Qaeda are what is known as False Muslims. They bring fear and violence, pretending to do so in the name of Islam. A large section of the Hecther (opening part of the Qu'ran) warns against people like these. Any Muslim who's read their scripture knows that Al Qaeda are false and will be vilified by Allah. You mustn't have speaken to many Muslims if you haven't found one who's against their actions.
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    So they're like the Westboro Baptist... Mosque?
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    when nationS contribute money to a country, to improve a minority group, to stop them from being unsettled; and that country refuses to even claim the money... and then the country, where said minority partially immigrates to, also refuses to claim money, contributed by other nations, to improve or help them to settle; while they're part of accusing country A of not accepting the help given....my id should say absurdistan.

    and what happens to the contributed money?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.
    Al Qaeda are what is known as False Muslims. They bring fear and violence, pretending to do so in the name of Islam. A large section of the Hecther (opening part of the Qu'ran) warns against people like these. Any Muslim who's read their scripture knows that Al Qaeda are false and will be vilified by Allah. You mustn't have speaken to many Muslims if you haven't found one who's against their actions.
    While we wait for Allah to do his vilifying, people are getting killed? Allah has got to get out there and start vilifying right now. What's the bloody hold up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.
    I have never heard a Muslim say anything of the sort in the real world. All the stories about Muslims not rejecting Al Qaeda have come from the Internet. The famous "Arabs cheered when the plane flew into the towers" urban myth comes to mind.
    There is also an urban myth claiming some Jewish people were cheering.


    If you're on America soil rooting for the opposing team, you may not be committing a crime exactly, but you are rightly causing whatever suspicion comes your way. Only those who fully and uncompromisingly condemn terrorism deserve to be given "the benefit of the doubt".
    In that case, all Arabs that I have ever met deserve the benefit of the doubt.
    I have yet to see a fatwa. A fatwa would be evidence that they're "calling off the dogs" so to speak. But so far no credible attempt appears to have been made.
    Here's just one:
    =========
    Reminder: Fatwa Issued Against Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida


    Posted on September 22, 2007





    In light of the recent involvement of Muslim professionals (i.e. doctors) in acts of terrorism, I am reprinting this fatwa issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain against Osama Bin Laden, and the fatwas by the US Fiqh Council of North America and British Muslim clerics against religious extremism and terrorism as a reminder to all.
    According to the Associated Press, the fatwa issued on the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings, calls bin Laden an apostate and urging others to denounce the al-Qaida leader:
    The ruling was issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the country’s 1 million-member Muslim community. The commission represents 200 or so mostly Sunni mosques, or about 70 percent of all mosques in Spain.

    ======================[/QUOTE]

    I didn't know they'd done that.

    That changes my view of Islam a lot, even if it is only the commission in Spain. But it means a lot, especially since Spain has had it's own terrorist attacks.

    As far as I'm concerned, a Muslim who will openly denounce Osama Bin Laden as an apostate is no threat to national security. I only object to the idea of being expected to treat someone who says they support terror as if they were equally likely to commit an attack as someone who doesn't say they support terror.

    People of course have the right to say whatever they want, but if they say things that make them look suspicious, they don't have a legitimate expectation of being treated without suspicion.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    My problem with the claim of unfair discrimination against Muslims is that I don't think it is unfair. I never hear a Muslim truly vilify Al Quaeda. They'll say things like that they "disagree with their methods", or that Al Qaeda "went too far", but more often I hear apologetic statements, half justifying them as having their intentions in the right place, or trying to champion downtrodden Muslims around the world.
    Al Qaeda are what is known as False Muslims. They bring fear and violence, pretending to do so in the name of Islam. A large section of the Hecther (opening part of the Qu'ran) warns against people like these. Any Muslim who's read their scripture knows that Al Qaeda are false and will be vilified by Allah. You mustn't have speaken to many Muslims if you haven't found one who's against their actions.
    It doesn't really matter what the book teaches. It only matters what the people believe.

    If a large group of people get together and express the view that I need to be blown up, then they have declared their enmity to me.

    If some of them get together and declare that the first group are wrong, then they have declared their friendship to me again (or at least their neutrality.)
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    So they're like the Westboro Baptist... Mosque?
    Unfortunately there are more than 6 of them, unlike the WBC
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Indonesia is the largest (population) Moslem nation in the world, but very few (if any) terrorists come from there. I wonder if the problem is more of a cultural thing among certain Moslem societies, such as Arab, Pakistani, or Afghan, as well as disaffected minorities in western societies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Indonesia is the largest (population) Moslem nation in the world, but very few (if any) terrorists come from there. I wonder if the problem is more of a cultural thing among certain Moslem societies, such as Arab, Pakistani, or Afghan, as well as disaffected minorities in western societies.

    That would make sense. Saudi Arabia is on the doorstep of Palestine, and shares a common language of Arabic. Most of the big terrorists tend to come out of Saudi Arabia.

    Through their cultural and media connections - probably young Arabs become flooded by media about the plight of Palestinians. Palestinians, in turn, need a way to cope with the seemingly apocalyptic conditions that face them, and times of crisis tend to be the times when people turn toward religion.


    Afghanistan also faces seemingly apocalyptic conditions, and has since the early 1980's when the Soviet Union invaded and started wiping out villages wholesale using helicopters. The fire really did "rain down from above", upon a technologically unsophisticated people. They speak Pashtun and a few other languages there, as do the people of Pakistan.


    The sad thing is it becomes a self feeding cycle. The religion turns militant to address a threat. The militant leaders realize their power derives from their role. So, the militant leaders go around provoking more violence in order to solidify their position of power. The militants themselves don't want peace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    All travelers deserve to be treated fairly and respectfully.
    but they're not. as you've rationalized through much of your post why it's ok that they're not.



    Quote Originally Posted by G O R T View Post
    In the meantime, TSA can look through my luggage, my shoes, and even up my asshole if they have a good reason. Better safe than sorry, you never know when I might whack out.
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." -Ben Franklin
    You and your kind are screwing up society for the rest of us. #KeeptheTSAoutofmyasshole!!
    Rationalization is not a bad thing. You have every opportunity here to prove your point, yet you do not.
    Arabs and other Muslims are by no means the only people that have ever been "profiled". This does not mean that they should be treated badly, that is wrong. If you have specific incidents in mind you should share them. Fairly and respectfully has limits that should not be abridged to make an incident. You cannot get a drivers license if you will not be photographed. This is the law of the land (from rationalization), not an affront on Islam.

    I (and my kind) are not screwing up anything. I do not consider airport security screening a loss of liberty at all. Perhaps you could explain? Do you lose the liberty to smuggle drugs? bombs? other weapons? what?

    Go dig up ole Ben and see what he makes of modern times. Even in his time people were searched for documents, weapons, and contraband. Did you really think that this is what his quote applies to? How sad.
    Can you provide a single instance where racial profiling has stopped someone trying to bring a weapon onto a plane? If you can, and can then establish that by empiricism, (not just 'common sense,' but actual past events,) that profiling improves the safety of air travel, I'll give the justifications for profiling more thought. However, for something to be a necessary evil it has to be necessary. So. Are there any instances where the profiling caught someone with a bomb or gun?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Is it just me or are Muslims getting as much hate as Jews got leading up to the Holocaust?

    1. They're mocked on a daily basis.
    2. International security is very discriminatory towards them. Deny it all you like but Muslims are 99% more likely to be stopped for a security check at airports than non-Muslims. Governments actually allow this.
    3. The common image that pops to the average person's head when they think of Muslims is Al-qaeda, much like how the common portrayal of Jews was of money-grabbing misers. Both stereotypes are inaccurate.

    Obviously, given the state of the world's finance, no country would want to start a global war against Muslims but you can't deny that they are being unfairly discriminated against. Why do we let this happen in this PC 21st century?
    Poor muslims, they are subjected to a "new holocaust".
    Millions of them are being killed. By their own.
    Millions of them live in concentration camps. Manned by their own.
    The parallel that the OP is trying to draw is obscene. There is no "holocaust" for the poor, innocent muslims.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; July 10th, 2014 at 12:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, a Muslim who will openly denounce Osama Bin Laden as an apostate is no threat to national security. I only object to the idea of being expected to treat someone who says they support terror as if they were equally likely to commit an attack as someone who doesn't say they support terror.

    People of course have the right to say whatever they want, but if they say things that make them look suspicious, they don't have a legitimate expectation of being treated without suspicion.
    Replace the word "Muslim" above with "person" and I am in complete agreement. If you find ANYONE that does or says things that make them look suspicious to a rational person, then it makes sense to subject them to more scrutiny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Is it just me or are Muslims getting as much hate as Jews got leading up to the Holocaust?

    1. They're mocked on a daily basis.
    2. International security is very discriminatory towards them. Deny it all you like but Muslims are 99% more likely to be stopped for a security check at airports than non-Muslims. Governments actually allow this.
    3. The common image that pops to the average person's head when they think of Muslims is Al-qaeda, much like how the common portrayal of Jews was of money-grabbing misers. Both stereotypes are inaccurate.

    Obviously, given the state of the world's finance, no country would want to start a global war against Muslims but you can't deny that they are being unfairly discriminated against. Why do we let this happen in this PC 21st century?
    Poor muslims, they are subjected to a "new holocaust".
    Millions of them are being killed. By their own.
    Millions of them live in concentration camps. Manned by their own.
    The parallel that the OP is trying to draw is obscene. There is no "holocaust" for the poor, innocent muslims.
    I didn't know Clinton, Bush, Obama, and their departments were all Islamic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    The parallel that the OP is trying to draw is obscene. There is no "holocaust" for the poor, innocent muslims.
    I brought that up in post 19.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    The parallel that the OP is trying to draw is obscene. There is no "holocaust" for the poor, innocent muslims.
    I brought that up in post 19.
    My assessment is a lot more somber about the plight of many Muslims; for example, the Marsh Arabs who had their homes and livelihood ecologically destroyed, the Kurds who were given hope than left betrayed by the West as thousands of their towns were razed and wells destroyed, the Palestinians who've often suffered decades of collateral damage and loss of life from overzealous counter insurgency efforts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    The parallel that the OP is trying to draw is obscene. There is no "holocaust" for the poor, innocent muslims.
    I brought that up in post 19.
    My assessment is a lot more somber about the plight of many Muslims; for example, the Marsh Arabs who had their homes and livelihood ecologically destroyed, the Kurds who were given hope than left betrayed by the West as thousands of their towns were razed and wells destroyed, the Palestinians who've often suffered decades of collateral damage and loss of life from overzealous counter insurgency efforts.
    Poor peace - loving palestinians and their lebanese friends. It is the fault of the "overzealous" efforts of the people that try to defend themselves from their murderous actions.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; July 11th, 2014 at 10:24 AM.
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    "decades of collateral damage"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    "decades of collateral damage"


    Decades of murders by the "peace-loving" arabs, starting with the invasion on Israel's independence in 1947.
    Actually, it starts earlier , in 1920, with Hitler's ally and friend, the grand mufti Amin Al Husseini (and his followers).
    Last edited by Howard Roark; July 11th, 2014 at 12:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post

    Can you provide a single instance where racial profiling has stopped someone trying to bring a weapon onto a plane? If you can, and can then establish that by empiricism, (not just 'common sense,' but actual past events,) that profiling improves the safety of air travel, I'll give the justifications for profiling more thought. However, for something to be a necessary evil it has to be necessary. So. Are there any instances where the profiling caught someone with a bomb or gun?

    The problem with that logic is it presupposes that the increased perceived likelihood of getting caught has no effect on the decision making process of prospective terrorists.

    It's possible that the reason profiling hasn't caught any terrorists is precisely because profiling deterred them away from trying to get on a plane with a weapon/bomb/whatever.

    And when you consider that deterrence is the best possible outcome (nobody gets hurt because nobody tried anything), it's all the more sad that successful deterrence would be taken as "proof" that the plan has failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    "decades of collateral damage"


    Decades of murders by the "peace-loving" arabs, starting with the invasion on Israel's independence in 1947.
    Actually, it starts earlier , in 1920, with Hitler's ally and friend, the grand mufti Amin Al Husseini (and his followers).

    Or it starts earlier than that with the Ottoman Empire's defeat on World War I, followed by a partitioning of all of its territories into the rather inept governance of multiple European states.

    Just as Germany was mistreated in the outcome of World War I, and that mistreatment is often cited by historians as a possible reason for there to have been a World War II - so also the Ottomans (and former Ottoman states) were mistreated in the outcome of the same war, but they haven't had their World War II yet.

    Not trying to suddenly grow a sympathetic bleeding heart for them. My trouble with Islam is the lack of respect I feel toward its tactics. Just because someone has been provoked doesn't automatically make whatever they do right or honorable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post

    Can you provide a single instance where racial profiling has stopped someone trying to bring a weapon onto a plane? If you can, and can then establish that by empiricism, (not just 'common sense,' but actual past events,) that profiling improves the safety of air travel, I'll give the justifications for profiling more thought. However, for something to be a necessary evil it has to be necessary. So. Are there any instances where the profiling caught someone with a bomb or gun?

    The problem with that logic is it presupposes that the increased perceived likelihood of getting caught has no effect on the decision making process of prospective terrorists.

    It's possible that the reason profiling hasn't caught any terrorists is precisely because profiling deterred them away from trying to get on a plane with a weapon/bomb/whatever.

    And when you consider that deterrence is the best possible outcome (nobody gets hurt because nobody tried anything), it's all the more sad that successful deterrence would be taken as "proof" that the plan has failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    "decades of collateral damage"


    Decades of murders by the "peace-loving" arabs, starting with the invasion on Israel's independence in 1947.
    Actually, it starts earlier , in 1920, with Hitler's ally and friend, the grand mufti Amin Al Husseini (and his followers).

    Or it starts earlier than that with the Ottoman Empire's defeat on World War I, followed by a partitioning of all of its territories into the rather inept governance of multiple European states.

    Just as Germany was mistreated in the outcome of World War I, and that mistreatment is often cited by historians as a possible reason for there to have been a World War II - so also the Ottomans (and former Ottoman states) were mistreated in the outcome of the same war, but they haven't had their World War II yet.

    Not trying to suddenly grow a sympathetic bleeding heart for them. My trouble with Islam is the lack of respect I feel toward its tactics. Just because someone has been provoked doesn't automatically make whatever they do right or honorable.
    Sure, it's similar to the argument that even though few crimes are stopped by gun-owning homeowners, it is impossible to know how many were never committed in the first place because the fear of gun-owners. It isn't entirely flawed logic, there's some merit to your argument.

    But even though not having caught any terrorists doesn't prove that profiling is ineffective, it certainly isn't evidence that it has deterred anyone, either. "You can't prove that this policy doesn't help," is not adequate reason to do something. You need some actual evidence that it works to justify the policy. Making the issue nebulous where no one can prove the other right or wrong isn't enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    "decades of collateral damage"


    Decades of murders by the "peace-loving" arabs, starting with the invasion on Israel's independence in 1947.
    Actually, it starts earlier , in 1920, with Hitler's ally and friend, the grand mufti Amin Al Husseini (and his followers).
    After Jewish terrorism (not all Jews mind you) carved it out of British hands....

    But in any case, I've been to some of the worse places on the planet and I'm nearly certain there isn't any group of people who could be lumped into one category; almost without exception a few leaders and brutes who hold the reigns of power are driving terrorism of a minority of their otherwise peace loving peoples. Anyone who thinks any peoples all Arabs, Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc are all bad or terrorist is a fool. Such beliefs of any groups of people only tends to make more of them become like the stereotype ignorantly held.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Anyone who thinks any peoples all Arabs, Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc are all bad or terrorist is a fool. Such beliefs of any groups of people only tends to make more of them become like the stereotype ignorantly held.
    Strongly agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    "decades of collateral damage"


    Decades of murders by the "peace-loving" arabs, starting with the invasion on Israel's independence in 1947.
    Actually, it starts earlier , in 1920, with Hitler's ally and friend, the grand mufti Amin Al Husseini (and his followers).
    After Jewish terrorism (not all Jews mind you) carved it out of British hands....

    Pathetic attempt at distorting truth:

    -the land of Israel was theirs to begin with, the brits just occupied it temporarily , after WWI

    -the arabs under Amin Al Husseini and his followers started the killings in 1920, way before the Jews started their independence movement

    -actually, al Husseini "cut his teeth" at mass-murder in the early 1900's, in the turkish genocide against the 1.5 million Armenians killed by the peace-loving muslims

    -the independence movement was a popular movement, it only contained some terrorist elements


    Also a nice attempt at shifting the blame to the Jews. From the faithful allies to the Nazis, the arabs. You realize that your bias is showing, don't you?

    Here are the minutes of the meeting between Hitler and the peace-loving Al Husseini.
    More of the same ideas for mass murders from al Husseini's esteemed follower, Arafat.


    Last edited by Howard Roark; July 12th, 2014 at 11:22 AM.
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    I find all this discussion about Israel a bit strange. Until the 20th century, Israel was more of an idea or ideal than a reality. That area was always called Palestine. My dad (born 1918) didn't use expressions like since god was a boy or as old as dirt. He used to say of old times, "Back when Adam played full-back for Palestine." sometimes it would be "when Jesus played ... for Palestine."

    If you look at the CE maps from the middle ages onwards on the wiki page History of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you'll see that there's always a big emphasis on Jerusalem, but only rare and occasional references to Israel. AFAIK, the main determinants of what did and didn't happen in this area up until WW1 was the Ottoman Empire.

    Zionism is very much a 19th century semi-utopian movement - pretty well unrelated and isolated from any political or geographical reality to begin with. But it referred to a Jewish state centred on Jerusalem, with some of the lands of Palestine surrounding it. The focus was always on Jerusalem. It was only when the zealots took over - provoked initially by European anti-semitism and then enraged and justified by the Holocaust - that the discourse focused more on the concept of Israel. It was always there, but it would have stayed in the background had it not been for the passions aroused by the Holocaust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I find all this discussion about Israel a bit strange. Until the 20th century, Israel was more of an idea or ideal than a reality. That area was always called Palestine. My dad (born 1918) didn't use expressions like since god was a boy or as old as dirt. He used to say of old times, "Back when Adam played full-back for Palestine." sometimes it would be "when Jesus played ... for Palestine."

    If you look at the CE maps from the middle ages onwards on the wiki page History of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you'll see that there's always a big emphasis on Jerusalem, but only rare and occasional references to Israel. AFAIK, the main determinants of what did and didn't happen in this area up until WW1 was the Ottoman Empire.

    Zionism is very much a 19th century semi-utopian movement - pretty well unrelated and isolated from any political or geographical reality to begin with. But it referred to a Jewish state centred on Jerusalem, with some of the lands of Palestine surrounding it. The focus was always on Jerusalem. It was only when the zealots took over - provoked initially by European anti-semitism and then enraged and justified by the Holocaust - that the discourse focused more on the concept of Israel. It was always there, but it would have stayed in the background had it not been for the passions aroused by the Holocaust.
    The discussion is not about Israel, it is about the alliance between the arabs and the nazis and about the holocaust created by the muslims. 1.5 million Armenians killed , gave a good model of mass-murder to their friends, the nazis. A performance that was eclipsed only by their nazi allies.
    The muslims, especially Ahmedinajad's iranians, the hezbollah and the hamas would love a repeat performance, if they could. Fortunately for humankind, they can't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Most of the violence today involving Moslems is within the arab world, particularly Syria and Iraq. The participants on all sides call themselves Moslem. Is it a religious issue or simply an attempt to assert political power, using religion as an excuse?<br>
    <br>
    Iraq: ISIS vs. Shia government.<br>
    Syria: Assad (Alawite) vs. ISIS vs. "secular" Moslems.

    Well and clearly presented.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Anyone who thinks any peoples all Arabs, Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc are all bad or terrorist is a fool. Such beliefs of any groups of people only tends to make more of them become like the stereotype ignorantly held.
    Strongly agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm not proposing that we round up all the Muslims and put them together in a detention camp.
    Not yet, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm merely suggesting that they don't deserve a "benefit of the doubt" at security checkpoints.
    I'm completely disappointed in you Kojax. Who are "they"? you don't know any of the people you're talking about stopping. you're profiling based on looks. disgusting. Let's profile rich people in suits. they've done more damage to the country/world than any dude in a turban or woman in a burka.
    Most people do profile rich men in suits. They assume that they are snobs. They assume they were born into wealth and never worked a day in their life. They assume they are super rich, like so as to be able to afford to walk into a bar and buy everyone a drink, every day, and still never go broke.

    Indeed, the very fact the rich man in a suit you see at the mall isn't buying you something to eat is proof that he's a snob right there. Because he certainly could afford it!

    Dam those rich men in suits!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm not proposing that we round up all the Muslims and put them together in a detention camp.
    Not yet, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm merely suggesting that they don't deserve a "benefit of the doubt" at security checkpoints.
    I'm completely disappointed in you Kojax. Who are "they"? you don't know any of the people you're talking about stopping. you're profiling based on looks. disgusting. Let's profile rich people in suits. they've done more damage to the country/world than any dude in a turban or woman in a burka.
    Most people do profile rich men in suits. They assume that they are snobs. They assume they were born into wealth and never worked a day in their life. They assume they are super rich, like so as to be able to afford to walk into a bar and buy everyone a drink, every day, and still never go broke.

    Indeed, the very fact the rich man in a suit you see at the mall isn't buying you something to eat is proof that he's a snob right there. Because he certainly could afford it!

    Dam those rich men in suits!!!

    MY SPOUSY wears a suit and tie every day to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm not proposing that we round up all the Muslims and put them together in a detention camp.
    Not yet, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm merely suggesting that they don't deserve a "benefit of the doubt" at security checkpoints.
    I'm completely disappointed in you Kojax. Who are "they"? you don't know any of the people you're talking about stopping. you're profiling based on looks. disgusting. Let's profile rich people in suits. they've done more damage to the country/world than any dude in a turban or woman in a burka.
    Most people do profile rich men in suits. They assume that they are snobs. They assume they were born into wealth and never worked a day in their life. They assume they are super rich, like so as to be able to afford to walk into a bar and buy everyone a drink, every day, and still never go broke.

    Indeed, the very fact the rich man in a suit you see at the mall isn't buying you something to eat is proof that he's a snob right there. Because he certainly could afford it!

    Dam those rich men in suits!!!
    You missed the complete point of the post. on purpose perhaps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    The discussion is not about Israel, it is about the alliance between the arabs and the nazis and about the holocaust created by the muslims. 1.5 million Armenians killed , gave a good model of mass-murder to their friends, the nazis.
    I find that when anyone starts comparing an entire race to the Nazis, it is time to stop listening to them and start listening to sane people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    The discussion is not about Israel, it is about the alliance between the arabs and the nazis and about the holocaust created by the muslims. 1.5 million Armenians killed , gave a good model of mass-murder to their friends, the nazis.
    I find that when anyone starts comparing an entire race to the Nazis, it is time to stop listening to them and start listening to sane people.
    I see that you are having a hard time dealing with historical facts. Tough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I find that when anyone starts comparing an entire race to the Nazis, it is time to stop listening to them and start listening to sane people.
    Agreed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I find that when anyone starts comparing an entire race to the Nazis, it is time to stop listening to them and start listening to sane people.
    Agreed.
    I see that you too are having a hard time dealing with historical facts. Tough.
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    First off you've linked to a biased web site, not a scholarly work.

    And even if you accept those "historical facts" in their entirety is does absolutely nothing to support the contention that entire groups of people held the genocidal views of their leadership, and certainly doesn't do so a hundred years later which is the context of the OP. The world is considerable more complex than the checkerboard bad vs good way to you seem to frame the challenges of extremism, terrorism amid increasingly secular and international standards sweeping the globe. Such simple views do little to advise appropriate responses...in fact they usually make the situation worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    -the land of Israel was theirs to begin with, the brits just occupied it temporarily , after WWI
    From what I gather some people think that around 3000 years ago or so that land was called Canaan and the previous occupants were either killed en mass or enslaved prior to it becoming 'theirs'. Fortunately there is little archaeological evidence to back up what was written in that old testament part of the brits King James bible.

    At least our modern laws treat things a bit differently.

    Unconditional surrender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It was also seen at the Battle of the Alamo, when Santa Anna asked Jim Bowie and William B. Travis for unconditional surrender. Even though Bowie wished to surrender unconditionally, Travis refused, retaliated by firing a cannon at Santa Anna's army, and wrote in his final dispatches:
    The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword, if the fort is taken — I have answered their demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves proudly from the walls — I shall never surrender or retreat.[8]
    The phrase surrender at discretion is still used in treaties, for example the Rome Statute that entered into force on July 1, 2002, specifies under "Article 8 war crimes, Paragraph 2.b" that:
    Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:...
    (vi) Killing or wounding a combatant who, having laid down his arms or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;[9]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    First off you've linked to a biased web site, not a scholarly work.
    You mean a website that exposes your beloved muslims for what they are, mass murderers.

    And even if you accept those "historical facts" in their entirety
    The murder of 1.5 million Armenians is a historical fact, a genocide, not a "historical fact". Your quotes show your denial and bias. So , far from any claims that the muslims may be subjected to holocaust, they have been holocaust perpetrators (against the Armenians) and holocaust perpetrators wanna-be's (against the Jews In Israel, against the Christians in Sudan and Lebanon). Look at hamas/hezbollah statements.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; July 17th, 2014 at 11:37 AM.
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    Dude you deliberately miss the point. And now you compound the error of not only blaming an entire group, but so for things done by no one that's still around as if their descendents are ALL still worth for contempt for the crimes of their grand and great grand parents. Quite honestly such simple minded thinking is responsible for most of the world's violence--it is part of the problem in the places violence continues (fortunately becoming less common in the world) not the solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Dude you deliberately miss the point. And now you compound the error of not only blaming an entire group, but so for things done by no one that's still around as if their descendents are ALL still worth for contempt for the crimes of their grand and great grand parents.
    The "descendents" are perps, just like their forefathers. Far from being innocent, they continue the tradition of murdering human beings of their predecessors. Look at Sudan, Lebanon, Nigeria , Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Turkey, just to pick a few. The only difference is that the rest of the world has learned how to fight back, so your beloved muslims cannot implement their much desired "jihad" as per their manifesto. Did you serve in one of the muslim countries? Was it Afghanistan?

    Quite honestly such simple minded thinking is responsible for most of the world's violence--it is part of the problem in the places violence continues (fortunately becoming less common in the world) not the solution.
    So, the dim view that the world has of the muslims is the reason for their violence, not the other way around?Talk about attempting to re-write reality.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; July 17th, 2014 at 11:39 AM.
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    You are really off the top. None of those places you mentioned are even in the top ten for violence, while those in the top ten are predominantly Christian.... but no matter, I'm glad that few people are ignorant enough to assume that all the children crossing our borders from those nations are "perps" and deserve our contempt for the crimes of their parent's countrymen which would be conclusion of your messed up logic. (and yes I've served in several Muslim nations, living with, as a liaison, and military advisor with them, and speak basic Arabic).

    But no matter, wallow in your ignorant views that are an anathema to liberty minded peoples, you seem to enjoy it. One of the more profound realizations I reached while traveling and working abroad meeting Muslims, Buddhist, Yazidi, Coptic Christians and many others, is people's desires have much more in common with each other than different---and a nearly universal constant is most would prefer to be left peacefully alone to raise their families than do anything else (which is why representative nations tend to be peaceful).
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; July 17th, 2014 at 12:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    You are really off the top. None of those places you mentioned are even in the top ten for violence, while those in the top ten are predominantly Christian....
    Really? To pick an example, the genocide in Sudan is not in the top ten? Nor the Sunni on Shia and Shia on Sunni murders in Iraq?


    but no matter I'm glad that few people are ignorant enough to assume that all the children crossing our borders from those nations are perps
    Whoa! Hold your horses! Speaking of a non-sequitur, where did you get the thing with the "children crossing our borders"? We are talking about the holocaust meted by the muslims in their respective countries.


    and deserve our contempt for the crimes of their parent's country men which would be conclusion of your messed up logic. (and yes I've served in several Muslim nations, living with, as a liaison, and military advisor with them, and speak basic Arabic).
    Did you bring a wife from one of these countries? Are you a muslim?
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    The major problem with Islam is most of the flavors of Islam over reproduce, and mistreat the women in their population. And the degree of freedom allowed to women correlates strongly with population control, so the two issues are really one issue.

    So what you end up with is a lot of malcontent young men, who can't understand why they're being born into poverty. Who are raised to expect to be utterly dominant over the women around them, but whos claim of dominance is constantly being questioned by Western Media - which has lead to quite a few acid attacks against women who attempted to attend college and/or forgot to wear their bhurka.

    Why Acid Attacks On Women Are Still Happening, And What Must Be Done To Stop Them

    Pakistani Taliban target female students with acid attack - CNN.com



    I think it's just plain not possible to fail to respect women, and to be peaceful at the same time. And the acid attacks even add to the problem, because it indicates a culture that not only fails to respect women, but additionally fails to respect beauty. Maybe even hates beauty. How can a culture with no sense of aesthetic value contribute anything at all to the rest of the world?

    Perhaps the problem with Islam is not that it does harm. All cultures do harm. The problem is that it does nothing good. Just harm.


    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm not proposing that we round up all the Muslims and put them together in a detention camp.
    Not yet, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm merely suggesting that they don't deserve a "benefit of the doubt" at security checkpoints.
    I'm completely disappointed in you Kojax. Who are "they"? you don't know any of the people you're talking about stopping. you're profiling based on looks. disgusting. Let's profile rich people in suits. they've done more damage to the country/world than any dude in a turban or woman in a burka.
    Most people do profile rich men in suits. They assume that they are snobs. They assume they were born into wealth and never worked a day in their life. They assume they are super rich, like so as to be able to afford to walk into a bar and buy everyone a drink, every day, and still never go broke.

    Indeed, the very fact the rich man in a suit you see at the mall isn't buying you something to eat is proof that he's a snob right there. Because he certainly could afford it!

    Dam those rich men in suits!!!
    You missed the complete point of the post. on purpose perhaps?
    Or you missed the point of my post. Profiling can be a two way street.
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    threads like this tempt me to think that maybe dwydwyduck is right about the universe being deterministic.

    that we have no free will, but live by instincts i.e.: away from fire towards the cliff. after all we're just monkeys with technical know how.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The major problem with Islam is most of the flavors of Islam over reproduce,
    Out of date information. While true several decades ago, (similar to most Christian nations)... Most nations with predominantly Muslim populations are now running near (or even below) replacement levels.

    Changes in Fertility Rates Among Muslims in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh
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    That is a good article, although they left Palestine of the list. I presume this is because Palestine's status as a nation is still contested, and the greater nation of Palestine + Israel doesn't have a huge combined birth rate.


    Demographics of the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    It seems the three major problem places - Afghanistan, Somalia, and Palestine - owe a great deal of their strife to bad family planning. And they owe their bad family planning to the strife. It's a feedback cycle, like what happens when you put a microphone close to the loud speaker.

    And where is Islam in the middle of all of this? I don't know. However it doesn't look like its helping the situation. If it's such a great religion, then why isn't it helping?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    If a radical Muslim were to take refuge in my home and put my family at risk of being bombed the first time they went to sleep I'd kill them all. That is the problem with good Muslims, they don't want to protect themselves from the terrorist Muslims so they get used as human shields. I do not care how "good" I was that wouldn't happen in my house.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If a radical Muslim were to take refuge in my home and put my family at risk of being bombed the first time they went to sleep I'd kill them all. That is the problem with good Muslims, they don't want to protect themselves from the terrorist Muslims so they get used as human shields. I do not care how "good" I was that wouldn't happen in my house.
    Yep
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If a radical Muslim were to take refuge in my home and put my family at risk of being bombed the first time they went to sleep I'd kill them all.
    If a friend was fleeing from radical Muslims and they took refuge in your house, would you kill him as well? Or would you kill him only if he was Muslim?
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    Lets look at the generic problem.

    If your country was occupied and a patriot who had been fighting the enemy came to your house and sought refuge what would you do when they went to sleep?
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    I think in the United States my fellow citizens see themselves as a particular target of muslim extremists, and there is considerable justification for that. In the wake of 9/11 spontaneous rallies erupted in various muslim communities applauding the success of the attacks, shouting "death to America" and burning American flags. Those images are hard to forget.

    You cannot realistically separate Islamic extremism from resentment of the Jewish zion in Isreal. The world Jewish population falls rather neatly into three categories. Forty percent of the world's Jews live in Isreal. Forty percent of the world's Jews live in the United States. Only twenty percent live in the rest of the world combined. The notion that the United States is the most Jewish country on the planet, save only Israel itself, is rather firmly based in fact.

    The systematic repression of the native Palestinian people that has gone on since Jewish zionists, many of them terrorists themselves, established the state of Isreal, is completely repulsive. Israel only gets away with it because the Jewish holocaust at the hands of the Nazis was even worse. Moslems around the world, not all of them violent extremists, see the United States as a party to this repression, and hate us for it. That isn't going to change until the repression of the Palestinians is stopped.

    Treating all muslims as dangerous fanatics just adds fuel to the resentment. But adopting an enlightened attitude of assuming muslims are peaceful innocents until proven otherwise isn't ultimately going to change anything. The root of the problem is in the Middle East and nothing we can do is going to change that.
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    Talking to Israel's who have lived there....not all but most of them feel that they are wished dead and deleted from the face of this earth.

    Pretty awful thought to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhanegan View Post

    The systematic repression of the native Palestinian people that has gone on since Jewish zionists, many of them terrorists themselves, established the state of Isreal, is completely repulsive. Israel only gets away with it because the Jewish holocaust at the hands of the Nazis was even worse. Moslems around the world, not all of them violent extremists, see the United States as a party to this repression, and hate us for it. That isn't going to change until the repression of the Palestinians is stopped.
    .
    A classic page from the natural's anti-Israel playbook. I cannot say anti - semite since you demonstrate quite a bit of compassion for the palis. You know, our friends who danced in the street at 9/11.

    That isn't going to change until the repression of the Palestinians is stopped.
    Err, poor, innocent palis, the "victims" of repression, they started the wars since 1948, again in 1967 , and again in 1973 with the declared genocidal agenda. Never start anything that you cannot finish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Talking to Israel's who have lived there....not all but most of them feel that they are wished dead and deleted from the face of this earth.
    ....by the peace-loving, innocent, muslims....
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    imo they completely neglected the palestinians when they called/re-called out the state of israel after the holocaust.

    yes, i agree that israel has its right to be there and being a state. but what about the palestinians? they clearly didn't want to be a part of israel, nor did/do they want to leave the region ... otherwise there would be peace.

    so either there will be a palestinian state sometime in the future or an ongoing war zone til one of the two groups died out.

    right now it looks like the latter is, what politics wants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    imo they completely neglected the palestinians when they called/re-called out the state of israel after the holocaust.

    yes, i agree that israel has its right to be there and being a state. but what about the palestinians? they clearly didn't want to be a part of israel, nor did/do they want to leave the region ... otherwise there would be peace.
    The palis still have hundreds of thousands of square miles of land. But, no, they absolutely "needed" the 8000 allocated to Israel. Besides, as soon as Israel declared its independence, in 1948, hundreds of thousands of palis , jordanians, egyptians and syrians invaded with the intent on butchering them. The iraqis, lybians, algerians, tunisians and morrocans waited in the wings.


    so either there will be a palestinian state sometime in the future or an ongoing war zone til one of the two groups died out.

    right now it looks like the latter is, what politics wants.
    There is going to be a pali state when the palis renounce their genocidal intentions.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; July 27th, 2014 at 10:14 AM.
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    Off topic much?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    imo they completely neglected the palestinians when they called/re-called out the state of israel after the holocaust.

    yes, i agree that israel has its right to be there and being a state. but what about the palestinians? they clearly didn't want to be a part of israel, nor did/do they want to leave the region ... otherwise there would be peace.
    The palis still have hundreds of thousands of square miles of land. But, no, they absolutely "needed" the 8000 allocated to Israel. Besides, as soon as Israel declared its independence, in 1948, hundreds of thousands of palis , jordanians, egyptians and syrians invaded with the intent on butchering them. The iraqis, lybians, algerians, tunisians and morrocans waited in the wings.


    so either there will be a palestinian state sometime in the future or an ongoing war zone til one of the two groups died out.

    right now it looks like the latter is, what politics wants.
    There is going to be a pali state when the palis renounce their genocidal intentions.
    so you're saying, throughout the centuries no palestinians lived in that region and all of them just rushed there in 1948 to cause havoc?

    what if you and your ancestors lived in cali for centuries, and out of the blue world politics decided to give it back to mexico; and your only choice is to become mexican, live there as a foreigner or leave?

    and how many palestinians vs israelis lived there in 1948?

    it was damned to cause conflicts the way it was done.

    and ppl returning to their birthplace when trouble arouses isn't uncommon. like a lot of ppl returned to kosovo when they seen a chance to support their ethnical group.

    and genocidal intentions? please.

    compared to all palestinians only a handfull are the hardliners, who don't wanna learn. and i hope the ppl of palestine will show them the door soon, to give the land a chance.
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