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Thread: Muslims the new Holocaust?

  1. #201  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Muslims just get searched more often.
    To my knowledge religious affiliations aren't stated in any travel documents but their name and nationality are, and the only means of remotely identifying such people are through physical appearance and attire. So, just how are muslims identified, since almost every single race, ethnicity, gender, age, and nationality may or may not be a muslim.
    Since we don't know who is and isn't a terrorist to begin with, but only see a statistical correlation between being Muslim and being terrorist, there is no real point in trying to be precise about determining who is and isn't Muslim either.

    However, there is a strong statistical correlation between having a visa from a predominantly Muslim nation and being Muslim.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    They don't need to give you a reason. You have enough reasons to assume it.
    I disagree. It is their responsibility to ensure whatever it is they are trying to say comes across without being misunderstood, especially when asked to clarify, and I'm asking. You may speak for yourself to correct as you have said a "semantic mistake", but not for others.
    That's a ridiculous ethic to expect anyone to live by. How can a person reasonably anticipate all of the hundreds of different backgrounds their audience might have and the different comprehension issues those backgrounds are likely to carry with them?

    If I say something on a public forum, I have little or no control over who might read (or misread) it. However the listener has total control over which poster they want to read posts from.

    So the listener can choose to only read posts they feel they are correctly understanding. (At their own risk.)


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I usually refuse to jump through hoops. It is quite obvious how the sentence would take shape.
    Yes, but with you committing it down on text by typing it out facilitates the point I'm trying to make on how one goes about "mocking" the correct subject, as you have stated in post #114 with "Islam is earning the mockery it receives. An individual Muslim may not be personally deserving of mockery, however.", and post #184 with "It doesn't mean I won't tell him Turkish culture is dumb. It does mean I won't tell him that he himself is dumb."

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    How about you propose a sentence, and I will tell you if it is right or wrong?
    If you like; pick a religious affiliation.
    Those quotes look pretty good.

    I kind of understand what you're worried about, though. There are certain ethnic epithets like "towel head", "camel jockey" or "sand nigger" that get thrown around. The idea being that someone who falls under one of those categories is somehow less than human or somehow deserving of contempt.

    I try to avoid that sort of thing. If I'm going to refer to an individual person's ethnicity in any form, I try to add the word "person" to the end. Although with Muslim people I usually feel ok saying just "Muslim". It helps to remember that there is a difference between the culture and the people themselves. People have potential to do better things than what they are doing. Ideas, on the other hand, can only be improved by modifying them or replacing them with better ideas. We don't need to replace all the people, just the ideas.
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  2. #202  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Since we don't know who is and isn't a terrorist to begin with, but only see a statistical correlation between being Muslim and being terrorist, there is no real point in trying to be precise about determining who is and isn't Muslim either.

    However, there is a strong statistical correlation between having a visa from a predominantly Muslim nation and being Muslim.
    Which comes down to profiling via nationality, physical appearance and attire (such as racial features of skin color, facial features, and cultural attire), and not necessarily someone who is or isn't a muslim.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    That's a ridiculous ethic to expect anyone to live by. How can a person reasonably anticipate all of the hundreds of different backgrounds their audience might have and the different comprehension issues those backgrounds are likely to carry with them?
    Within the context of what we have been talking about and what you have said below; sure we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Those quotes look pretty good.

    I kind of understand what you're worried about, though. There are certain ethnic epithets like "towel head", "camel jockey" or "sand nigger" that get thrown around. The idea being that someone who falls under one of those categories is somehow less than human or somehow deserving of contempt.
    Fantastic; I'll hold you to what you have said here.

    As for the rest, we'll just have to see if they learn anything from all that we've talked about.
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  3. #203  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Since we don't know who is and isn't a terrorist to begin with, but only see a statistical correlation between being Muslim and being terrorist, there is no real point in trying to be precise about determining who is and isn't Muslim either.

    However, there is a strong statistical correlation between having a visa from a predominantly Muslim nation and being Muslim.
    Which comes down to profiling via nationality, physical appearance and attire (such as racial features of skin color, facial features, and cultural attire), and not necessarily someone who is or isn't a muslim.
    I understand that I won't get a lot of agreement about the morality of it.

    I prefer to think pragmatically, and keep my ethics practical. The only practical way to find a needle in a haystack is to start out looking for statistical correlations. Find areas of the haystack that are more likely to have a needle in them and search those areas first.

    I suppose that in a make believe world with absolutely infinite resources, there would never be any need for such tactics. With infinite resources, one could simply examine the whole haystack, strand by strand, systematically working their way through each and every shaft of hay one by one until they find the needle.

    On the other end of make-believe, there is the idea of using perfect information. Just touch your fingers to your forehead, go into a psychic trance, and reach into the pile and find the pin on your first try. Then you won't be unnecessarily disturbing the rest of the haystack by searching areas of the haystack that don't have needles in them.

    It would be nice if only terrorists ever got searched at airports. But if we already knew who they were, then why would we be bothering to search them in the first place?


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    That's a ridiculous ethic to expect anyone to live by. How can a person reasonably anticipate all of the hundreds of different backgrounds their audience might have and the different comprehension issues those backgrounds are likely to carry with them?
    Within the context of what we have been talking about and what you have said below; sure we can.
    The whole basis of language is communication between two or more parties. There are commonly accepted forms of language, but really those are just conventions.

    It's kind of like how there are commonly accepted forms of religion, but we don't insist that everyone has to join one of the mainstream sects, nor to we insist that there can be one and only one specific form of Christianity or Islam or etc. Many sub-varieties are free to split off and do their own thing.

    Telling someone else that they must adhere to your specific set of standards when they talk seems kind of narrow minded.
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  4. #204  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I understand that I won't get a lot of agreement about the morality of it.

    I prefer to think pragmatically, and keep my ethics practical.
    I can understand that, and I did reply to TheFosterKid that not all countries does this (racial/reliigous profiling for muslims - such as Indonesia being a country populated mostly by muslims), and simply focus on an tightening security all-around without without the added profiles (with the exception of pre-known targets).

    One of the few issues I see here is that, if the purpose of the added security profiling is to pick out potential threats going through immigration checkpoints for terrorists-hijackers that may or may not be a muslim, this simply isn't going to be reliable in the long run. Remember me sharing that China's territories has well over twenty three million muslims as of 2010, and a sizable portion of that figure being of the Chinese race?

    A 0.1% of that outdated figure comes up to modest twenty three thousand, and these may be potential threats that will not be filtered out by some of the current profiles added at immigration checkpoints. Unfortunately, I do not have figures for other races and ethnicity of that religious affiliation and converts, but the number can only increase from there on out.

    All it takes is a new direction on recruitment tactics, which I wouldn't be surprised if it hadn't been undertaken by now; to circumvent many of the current profile filters.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Telling someone else that they must adhere to your specific set of standards when they talk seems kind of narrow minded.
    As I have stated rather clearly before, I will make it a point to ask for clarification, but once that effort on my part has been made, and the other party makes no effort to correct any possible semantic mistake on their part; I can safely say that "they" meant every word of what they have written/said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post

    One of the few issues I see here is that, if the purpose of the added security profiling is to pick out potential threats going through immigration checkpoints for terrorists-hijackers that may or may not be a muslim, this simply isn't going to be reliable in the long run. Remember me sharing that China's territories has well over twenty three million muslims as of 2010, and a sizable portion of that figure being of the Chinese race?

    A 0.1% of that outdated figure comes up to modest twenty three thousand, and these may be potential threats that will not be filtered out by some of the current profiles added at immigration checkpoints. Unfortunately, I do not have figures for other races and ethnicity of that religious affiliation and converts, but the number can only increase from there on out.

    All it takes is a new direction on recruitment tactics, which I wouldn't be surprised if it hadn't been undertaken by now; to circumvent many of the current profile filters.
    Yep, "new recruitment tactics". By the same culprits. So why complain about profiling?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    By the same culprits.
    Please state the identity of the culprits.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    So why complain about profiling?
    Let's perform a simple exercise shall we?

    Please describe for us any common physical features and other identifying characteristics of potential culprits besides their religious affiliations which isn't always readily stated in most travel documents. Is it based on skin colour, their race, the nationality as stated in their passports, the attire they may be wearing, personal grooming, etc?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    By the same culprits.
    Please state the identity of the culprits.
    The muslim terrorists who are training new terrorists. I thought it was quite evident from your own post.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    So why complain about profiling?
    Let's perform a simple exercise shall we?

    Please describe for us any common physical features and other identifying characteristics of potential culprits besides their religious affiliations which isn't always readily stated in most travel documents. Is it based on skin colour, their race, the nationality as stated in their passports, the attire they may be wearing, personal grooming, etc?
    What do you think the authorities use for profiling? Country of origin, as stated by their documents, no-fly lists (do you know how they are compiled?), known terrorist affiliations, and many more.
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  8. #208  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I understand that I won't get a lot of agreement about the morality of it.

    I prefer to think pragmatically, and keep my ethics practical.
    I can understand that, and I did reply to TheFosterKid that not all countries does this (racial/reliigous profiling for muslims - such as Indonesia being a country populated mostly by muslims), and simply focus on an tightening security all-around without without the added profiles (with the exception of pre-known targets).

    One of the few issues I see here is that, if the purpose of the added security profiling is to pick out potential threats going through immigration checkpoints for terrorists-hijackers that may or may not be a muslim, this simply isn't going to be reliable in the long run. Remember me sharing that China's territories has well over twenty three million muslims as of 2010, and a sizable portion of that figure being of the Chinese race?
    If religious affiliation cannot be determined, then the accusation that airport security is giving extra scrutiny to people on the basis of their religious affiliation is therefore false. It must be false, because it is impossible.

    More likely, what they are doing is scrutinizing people from various nations. But those nations which get the most scrutiny also happen to be nations with high concentrations of Muslim population.

    To be honest, nation is a much stronger determinant than religion. Probabilistic wise, A Muslim from Palestine, Saudi Arabia, or Yemen or a war torn region like Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan is a much greater security risk than a Muslim from Indonesia or China.

    In Saudi Arabia, there is an under culture of people who are discontent with the royal family. In Palestine, there is quite a lot of discontent with the Israeli government and its treatment of Palestinian people (with good reason.) In Afghanistan and Iraq there are plenty of people affected by the violence. Islam appears to have doctrines that can be invoked in these situations in order to initiate a sort of "call to arms", which quite often takes the form of terror.

    Some other cultures may find themselves in similar circumstances, but they don't start creating terrorist cells. For example, Ukraine is currently getting torn apart by civil war, and many people blame the USA for initiating the Maidan event that triggered the hostilities, yet we have yet to see any Ukrainian terrorists walking into USA embassies with bombs strapped to their chests over it.


    A 0.1% of that outdated figure comes up to modest twenty three thousand, and these may be potential threats that will not be filtered out by some of the current profiles added at immigration checkpoints. Unfortunately, I do not have figures for other races and ethnicity of that religious affiliation and converts, but the number can only increase from there on out.

    All it takes is a new direction on recruitment tactics, which I wouldn't be surprised if it hadn't been undertaken by now; to circumvent many of the current profile filters.
    Right. But how likely would a Chinese Muslim person even be in an airport? The wealth structure in China is really messed up, with most of the population living well under the poverty line (by first world standards). It's unlikely that Islam is spreading very fast among the elite.

    But only the richest Chinese people ever leave that country.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Telling someone else that they must adhere to your specific set of standards when they talk seems kind of narrow minded.
    As I have stated rather clearly before, I will make it a point to ask for clarification, but once that effort on my part has been made, and the other party makes no effort to correct any possible semantic mistake on their part; I can safely say that "they" meant every word of what they have written/said.
    Some people may simply not be watching the thread anymore. If a person responds to you, yet refuses to clarify their point, then I could see eye to eye with you on this.

    Evasiveness is a good sign that a person's answer wouldn't make them look good.
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  9. #209  
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    The muslim terrorists who are training new terrorists. I thought it was quite evident from your own post.
    Correct. You had me worried for a second there thinking we may have to go through another round of semantic clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Country of origin, as stated by their documents,
    Is there a select few nationalities here and/or just about any country with a muslim population?

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    no-fly lists (do you know how they are compiled?),
    More or less. The wikipedia entry and related news articles does cover quite a fair bit on the number of false positives, potential lawsuits, benefits cost benefits analysis, and at least one obvious loophole identified since its implentation. The wikipedia entry was particularly interesting and oddly enough; informative.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    known terrorist affiliations,
    Such as these, or a couple of former United States presidents?


    1. Airline pulls 18 month old girl off plane in 'no-fly' alert - Telegraph
    2. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/bu...2&oref=slogin&
    3. Database snafu puts US Senator on terror watch list
    4. 'No-fly list' grounds some unusual young suspects - The Boston Globe
    Last edited by scoobydoo1; August 19th, 2014 at 01:24 PM. Reason: careless typo mistake
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If religious affiliation cannot be determined, then the accusation that airport security is giving extra scrutiny to people on the basis of their religious affiliation is therefore false. It must be false, because it is impossible.
    Correct. Some of the Asian countries with a sizable (fair to say; moderate muslim?) population have already realized that the methods by which some of the "western" nations have implemented isn't going to work for them (Asian countries), and they; much like the United States have been and are still rather determined in not allowing potential terrorists through their borders.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    To be honest, nation is a much stronger determinant than religion. Probabilistic wise, A Muslim from Palestine, Saudi Arabia, or Yemen or a war torn region like Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan is a much greater security risk than a Muslim from Indonesia or China.
    Agreed. However, there appears to be some form of bias at immigration checkpoints that (based on some articles I've read) seem to zero in on passengers with distinct cultural attire such as headdresses from both men and women, and even people sporting beards. Understandably, this does in some way fits into a stereotypically held and portrayed "muslim" image; which was one of the issues I've brought up earlier. We can only hope that this naturally occurring phenomena does not go beyond that and into unwanted scapegoating.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    In Saudi Arabia, there is an under culture of people who are discontent with the royal family. In Palestine, there is quite a lot of discontent with the Israeli government and its treatment of Palestinian people (with good reason.) In Afghanistan and Iraq there are plenty of people affected by the violence. Islam appears to have doctrines that can be invoked in these situations in order to initiate a sort of "call to arms", which quite often takes the form of terror.

    Some other cultures may find themselves in similar circumstances, but they don't start creating terrorist cells. For example, Ukraine is currently getting torn apart by civil war, and many people blame the USA for initiating the Maidan event that triggered the hostilities, yet we have yet to see any Ukrainian terrorists walking into USA embassies with bombs strapped to their chests over it.
    I have somewhat similar views, and I can understand why some muslims (even those residing the UK we've talked about earlier) sympathizing or openly supporting them. Any thoughts on how this historical baggage may pan out?

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Right. But how likely would a Chinese Muslim person even be in an airport?
    Surprisingly, I've met a couple during their job interviews with the company I work for, and if memory serves me well, my company have at least two Chinese male staff and one Chinese female staff who are muslim converts by way of marriage or are Peranakan.

    The more prominent ethnic Chinese muslims that comes to mind are the 回族 also known as the Hui Chinese, and their numbers in China (and Taiwan?) territories exceed ten million as of 2011, which is three to four times the numbers of muslims in the UK alone. That number isn't inclusive of the other smaller clans which I know exists, but am not familiar with.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The wealth structure in China is really messed up, with most of the population living well under the poverty line (by first world standards). It's unlikely that Islam is spreading very fast among the elite.

    But only the richest Chinese people ever leave that country.
    Mostly true if we're talking about tourist, but many with poorer financial backgrounds do travel abroad for employment opportunities; particularly here in Singapore due to the currency exchange rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Some people may simply not be watching the thread anymore. If a person responds to you, yet refuses to clarify their point, then I could see eye to eye with you on this.

    Evasiveness is a good sign that a person's answer wouldn't make them look good.
    No disagreements here.
    Last edited by scoobydoo1; August 19th, 2014 at 01:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    The muslim terrorists who are training new terrorists. I thought it was quite evident from your own post.
    Correct. You had me worried for a second there thinking we may have to go through another round of semantic clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Country of origin, as stated by their documents,
    Is there a select few nationalities here and/or just about any country with a muslim population?
    You know them already: Chechnia, Saudi (remember 9/11?), Pakistan, Palestine, Yemen.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    no-fly lists (do you know how they are compiled?),
    More or less. The wikipedia entry and related news articles does cover quite a fair bit on the number of false positives,
    Let's not play games, if they stopped the Tsarnaev brothers many people would be alive today. And many would not be maimed. It is easy to be PC when you live in a place that is not a terrorist target.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; August 19th, 2014 at 02:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Let's not play games, if they stopped the Tsarnaev brothers many people would be alive today.
    Right - but if there was no freedom of speech, there wouldn't have been as many riots in Ferguson, and fewer people would have been injured. Is that a good argument for eliminating freedom of speech?

    Every freedom comes with a cost. To paraphrase a famous guy, if you're willing to give up other people's freedom so you feel safer, you don't deserve freedom or safety.
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    Fortunately we're not talking about taking away anyone's freedom. Just searching them with disproportionate frequency at airports.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Let's not play games, if they stopped the Tsarnaev brothers many people would be alive today.
    Right - but if there was no freedom of speech, there wouldn't have been as many riots in Ferguson, and fewer people would have been injured. Is that a good argument for eliminating freedom of speech?
    Terrorism prevention has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

    Every freedom comes with a cost. To paraphrase a famous guy, if you're willing to give up other people's freedom so you feel safer, you don't deserve freedom or safety.
    Well, then the terrorists can camp in your back yard. Enjoy the freedom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    It is easy to be PC when you live in a place that is not a terrorist target.
    Where exactly would a place like that be?

    Singapore has been selected as a target. The capture, escape, and subsequent recapture of Mas Selamat bin Kastari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia was the single biggest blunder in Singapore law enforcement history; so much so that they and the governing body became a laughingstock to this day. You don't see many of us going overly paranoid on many of the ethnic malay muslims living here do you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    It is easy to be PC when you live in a place that is not a terrorist target.
    Where exactly would a place like that be?

    Singapore has been selected as a target. The capture, escape, and subsequent recapture of Mas Selamat bin Kastari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia was the single biggest blunder in Singapore law enforcement history; so much so that they and the governing body became a laughingstock to this day. You don't see many of us going overly paranoid on many of the ethnic malay muslims living here do you?
    Wait until Jemaah Islamiyah starts paying you visits. Then you will not be so smug anymore. Especially given the "stellar " performance of the Singapore authorities in dealing with terrorists as per your own example.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; August 19th, 2014 at 08:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Wait until Jemaah Islamiyah starts paying you visits. Then you will not be so smug anymore.
    You know something?

    I have had a good impression and a certain level of respect for you due to your knowledge on the subject of Physics, and while you may come across as abrasive at times when speaking on that subject, my impression and respect for you had never changed. I just thought you should know that it has been somewhat of a uphill struggle to stay that way and remind myself to look past the attitude you have exhibited here and focus on the content of a post and not on the poster. Your applied logic in matters related to Physics is fantastic, but that haven't been of the same rigor and standard in matters of other subject.

    The content in your last couple of posts here in this thread hasn't been much to go on to for that impression to not change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Terrorism prevention has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
    Way to miss the point.
    Well, then the terrorists can camp in your back yard. Enjoy the freedom.
    I've never had any terrorists in my back yard. Have you?
    OTOH, I came within 20 minutes of being a victim of one, and I still prefer freedom to fear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Wait until Jemaah Islamiyah starts paying you visits. Then you will not be so smug anymore.
    You know something?

    I have had a good impression and a certain level of respect for you due to your knowledge on the subject of Physics, and while you may come across as abrasive at times when speaking on that subject, my impression and respect for you had never changed. I just thought you should know that it has been somewhat of a uphill struggle to stay that way and remind myself to look past the attitude you have exhibited here and focus on the content of a post and not on the poster. Your applied logic in matters related to Physics is fantastic, but that haven't been of the same rigor and standard in matters of other subject.

    The content in your last couple of posts here in this thread hasn't been much to go on to for that impression to not change.
    So, when you run out of logical arguments you resort to personal attacks. Classical. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Terrorism prevention has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
    Way to miss the point.
    Well, then the terrorists can camp in your back yard. Enjoy the freedom.
    I've never had any terrorists in my back yard. Have you?
    OTOH, I came within 20 minutes of being a victim of one, and I still prefer freedom to fear.
    Try telling your story to the Boston marathon victims. Next time you go to a function, think about the Tsarnaev brothers or the likes being close by. Have fun!
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    So, when you run out of logical arguments you resort to personal attacks.
    That last post wasn't a logical argument because you have not made one that requires an attempt on my part in the post I've replied to. It is however heartfelt impression I have had of you which includes an observation of your ability to apply logic on Physics related subjects, but not so much on others subject matter.

    As to whether I have made any personal attacks on you or anyone else here in this thread, feel free to report the guilty post for moderator attention, or ask your fellows whether or not you have misidentified it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    So, when you run out of logical arguments you resort to personal attacks.
    That last post wasn't a logical argument because you have not made one that requires an attempt on my part in the post I've replied to. It is however heartfelt impression I have had of you which includes an observation of your ability to apply logic on Physics related subjects, but not so much on others subject matter.
    You are outright lying now, you lost the debate when you started resorting to personal attacks.

    As to whether I have made any personal attacks on you or anyone else here in this thread, feel free to report the guilty post for moderator attention, or ask your fellows whether or not you have misidentified it.
    Not worth it, exposing your hypocrisy suffices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    You are outright lying now,
    The entire Science Forum community is here to judge the content and nature of my posts and recent replies to you. Your accusation of me "lying" has been noted, and I have report my own post for the moderator team's evaluation.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    you lost the debate when you started resorting to personal attacks.
    I think you are mistaken. There has not been the any presence of a "debate" of any sort between you or I here in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Not worth it, exposing your hypocrisy suffices.
    It's quite alright, I'll do it for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Terrorism prevention has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
    Way to miss the point.
    Well, then the terrorists can camp in your back yard. Enjoy the freedom.
    I've never had any terrorists in my back yard. Have you?
    OTOH, I came within 20 minutes of being a victim of one, and I still prefer freedom to fear.
    Try telling your story to the Boston marathon victims. Next time you go to a function, think about the Tsarnaev brothers or the likes being close by. Have fun!
    There is no reason to worry about terrorists killing you everytime you go to a social function. However the reason why those fears are irrational is precisely because the frequency of terroist attacks is presently very low. The probablity such that any particular event would be attcked is small.

    The question is: how far will we need to go in order to keep it that way?

    We may find that we have to surrender some of our ideals in order to avoid surrendering all of them. Or being ruled by gun toting despots, which would amount to the same thing.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    In 2013 there were 11419 deaths due to guns in the U.S. Deaths due to terrorists ? The effort seems to be misplaced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Try telling your story to the Boston marathon victims.
    I know a few of them, the cop that was killed was from my alma mater. None of them want to let terrorists win by giving up the freedoms those terrorists try to destroy.
    Next time you go to a function, think about the Tsarnaev brothers or the likes being close by. Have fun!
    If you prefer to live in fear, go ahead. I prefer not to. To each their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    Try telling your story to the Boston marathon victims.
    I know a few of them, the cop that was killed was from my alma mater. None of them want to let terrorists win by giving up the freedoms those terrorists try to destroy.
    Next time you go to a function, think about the Tsarnaev brothers or the likes being close by. Have fun!
    If you prefer to live in fear, go ahead. I prefer not to. To each their own.
    I do not live in fear, I am an ex-paratrooper. I support all the profiling necessary to keep the monsters out. If this fails, I have quite an arsenal that I am ready to try on them. I can get a head shot from 100 yards without a scope.
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  28. #228  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    In 2013 there were 11419 deaths due to guns in the U.S. Deaths due to terrorists ? The effort seems to be misplaced.
    The difference between terrorism and ordinary crime is that the majority of ordinary criminals are not attempting to supplant the government and replace it with their own rules.

    Death and pain are both a fair price for freedom. But you can't just be pacifistic, because there is always a threshold for pain tolerance in any society. The more pain you can endure, the more free you are. However nobody's threshold for pain is infinite. There is a need to defend oneself from excessive agonies.

    In the case of terror, the pain would grow exponentially if no action were taken against it. Crime also, I suppose, but current policing strategies are showing themselves to be sufficient to keep the pain caused by crime down to a level that society can endure.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyzt View Post
    I do not live in fear, I am an ex-paratrooper.
    ?? Those two don't go together. I'm a skydiving instructor who teaches for the military, and I've spoken to several military students who live in fear of terrorism.
    I support all the profiling necessary to keep the monsters out. If this fails, I have quite an arsenal that I am ready to try on them. I can get a head shot from 100 yards without a scope.
    Cool! So no need to reduce other people's freedoms to assuage your fears. You'll just shoot any evildoer in the head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Cool! So no need to reduce other people's freedoms to assuage your fears. You'll just shoot any evildoer in the head.
    Yep.
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    A gun won't do you a whole lot of good against a Sarin gas attack, or a bomb on a plane you are flying on. And you can't be everywhere at once, so when your kid goes shopping at the local mall they're out of your protection (assuming that the mall is more than 100 yards away from your house.)

    But I admire your proactive spirit.

    As for profiling overall, I'm kind of neutral on the issue of profiling. Profiling can be a very useful tool, but if it is taken to too much of an extreme it can be a major inconvenience for whoever is getting chosen by it. Searching everyone equally is absurd and foolish, because it amounts to making things "feel" fair, by simply wasting additional resources unnecessarily.

    If I run a statistical analysis that tells me that searching 5% of the Muslims who walk through the airport checkpoint will reduce the likelihood of a terrorist incident by 50%, but searching 5% of the Baptists who walk through those checkpoints would only reduce the likelihood by 0.0001%, then the time and resources I spend searching those 5% of Baptists is just wasted. It's an investment with no return. Appeasing emotional logic is a colossal waste of resources. People should just grow up.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  32. #232  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If I run a statistical analysis that tells me that searching 5% of the Muslims who walk through the airport checkpoint will reduce the likelihood of a terrorist incident by 50%, but searching 5% of the Baptists who walk through those checkpoints would only reduce the likelihood by 0.0001%, then the time and resources I spend searching those 5% of Baptists is just wasted. It's an investment with no return. Appeasing emotional logic is a colossal waste of resources. People should just grow up.
    Which comes back to how does one identify a muslim from a non-muslim.

    "If religious affiliation cannot be determined, then the accusation that airport security is giving extra scrutiny to people on the basis of their religious affiliation is therefore false. It must be false, because it is impossible."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Is it just me or are Muslims getting as much hate as Jews got leading up to the Holocaust?
    This is Laughable/an Obscenity.
    Jews were rounded up and killed Industrially in Europe.
    Muslims/Muslim immigrants OTOH, are ravaging Europe with crime and successful cultural demands.

    More Muslims are killed every day BY Other Muslims than anyone else. Especially, but not limited to Sunni v Shia.
    Here's one from This AM:
    http://online.wsj.com/articles/forty...LEFTTopStories
    40 Killed by Shia in a Sunni Mosque.

    Many People die EVERY Day in the NAME Of Islam: non-Muslims or Muslims of other sects.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid
    1. They're mocked on a daily basis.
    Justifiable considering their inordinate Intolerance and Violence.
    And certainly no more than the Muslim press mocks others.
    The Mainstream Muslim media regularly posts antisemitic articles and TV series throughout the Arab world.
    Malaysia, ie, a country in which virtually No Jews live, is antisemitic because it is Islamic.
    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...20anti-semitic
    Less than a decade ago, the head of that country (M Matahir), got a standing Ovation from the 57-Muslim nation OIC after saying "Jews control the world".



    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid

    2. International security is very discriminatory towards them. Deny it all you like but Muslims are 99% more likely to be stopped for a security check at airports than non-Muslims. Governments actually allow this.
    This is Completely FALSE/a Lie.
    In the name of PC in fact, we ALL pay for what IS 99% a Muslim crime, Skyjacking.
    We ALL go through more security because of Muslims. My mother (82) has to take off her shoes at an airport?
    Gimme a break. This is random stopping to please PC.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid
    3. The common image that pops to the average person's head when they think of Muslims is Al-qaeda, much like how the common portrayal of Jews was of money-grabbing misers. Both stereotypes are inaccurate.
    Not at all.
    I think of all the Hijabs/other-garb I see now, a sign of POLITICAL Islam, not just another religion.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid
    Obviously, given the state of the world's finance, no country would want to start a global war against Muslims but you can't deny that they are being unfairly discriminated against. Why do we let this happen in this PC 21st century?
    I absolutely Deny they are being Discriminated against in any significant way.
    Your post is PERVERSE in fact.
    Islam is/proudly claims they are "The fastest growing religion" (in the tolerant West), and that's True....
    While Christians and other Minorities are being, and have been Persecuted and Cleansed from Most of the Muslim world, especially Arab Muslim World.


    Horrendous attempt at PC resulting is about an Ass-Backwards post as can be imagined.
    `
    Last edited by OriginOfSpecies; August 22nd, 2014 at 10:29 AM.
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  34. #234  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If I run a statistical analysis that tells me that searching 5% of the Muslims who walk through the airport checkpoint will reduce the likelihood of a terrorist incident by 50%, but searching 5% of the Baptists who walk through those checkpoints would only reduce the likelihood by 0.0001%, then the time and resources I spend searching those 5% of Baptists is just wasted. It's an investment with no return. Appeasing emotional logic is a colossal waste of resources. People should just grow up.
    Which comes back to how does one identify a muslim from a non-muslim.

    "If religious affiliation cannot be determined, then the accusation that airport security is giving extra scrutiny to people on the basis of their religious affiliation is therefore false. It must be false, because it is impossible."

    Yeah. I was just throwing that out as an example. The same principle applies of people are statistically filtered by nation of origin, or something else more observable.

    Correlation is not causality, but correlation is still correlation. And when you're looking for that needle in a haystack, correlation can be good enough to help find them.

    If terrorists tended to have a narrow range of heights, eye colors, hair styles, facial bone structures, or voice patterns, then using those to filter potential search targets would also be a very useful tool. Indeed, if you have enough determining factors available, and you find a target who matches all of them, the odds can begin to hover very near the 100% mark that they will turn out to be a terrorist when you look closely at them.

    Statistics are a powerful tool, and I think perhaps some of the reason we don't want to see the government using them is because we are afraid they might be too powerful.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  35. #235  
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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginOfSpecies View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Is it just me or are Muslims getting as much hate as Jews got leading up to the Holocaust?
    This is Laughable/an Obscenity.
    Jews were rounded up and killed Industrially in Europe.
    Muslims/Muslim immigrants OTOH, are ravaging Europe with crime and successful cultural demands.

    More Muslims are killed every day BY Other Muslims than anyone else. Especially, but not limited to Sunni v Shia.
    Here's one from This AM:
    Talks on Iraqi Government Suspended after Attack on Sunni Mosque - WSJ
    40 Killed by Shia in a Sunni Mosque.

    Many People die EVERY Day in the NAME Of Islam: non-Muslims or Muslims of other sects.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid
    1. They're mocked on a daily basis.
    Justifiable considering their inordinate Intolerance and Violence.
    And certainly no more than the Muslim press mocks others.
    The Mainstream Muslim media regularly posts antisemitic articles and TV series throughout the Arab world.
    Malaysia, ie, a country in which virtually No Jews live, is antisemitic because it is Islamic.
    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...20anti-semitic
    Less than a decade ago, the head of that country (M Matahir), got a standing Ovation from the 57-Muslim nation OIC after saying "Jews control the world".



    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid

    2. International security is very discriminatory towards them. Deny it all you like but Muslims are 99% more likely to be stopped for a security check at airports than non-Muslims. Governments actually allow this.
    This is Completely FALSE/a Lie.
    In the name of PC in fact, we ALL pay for what IS 99% a Muslim crime, Skyjacking.
    We ALL go through more security because of Muslims. My mother (82) has to take off her shoes at an airport?
    Gimme a break. This is random stopping to please PC.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid
    3. The common image that pops to the average person's head when they think of Muslims is Al-qaeda, much like how the common portrayal of Jews was of money-grabbing misers. Both stereotypes are inaccurate.
    Not at all.
    I think of all the Hijabs/other-garb I see now, a sign of POLITICAL Islam, not just another religion.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid
    Obviously, given the state of the world's finance, no country would want to start a global war against Muslims but you can't deny that they are being unfairly discriminated against. Why do we let this happen in this PC 21st century?
    I absolutely Deny they are being Discriminated against in any significant way.
    Your post is PERVERSE in fact.
    Islam is/proudly claims they are "The fastest growing religion" (in the tolerant West), and that's True....
    While Christians and other Minorities are being, and have been Persecuted and Cleansed from Most of the Muslim world, especially Arab Muslim World.


    Horrendous attempt at PC resulting is about an Ass-Backwards post as can be imagined.
    `

    You are absolutely right.
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    A friend at work mentioned to me that Christianity is much older in origin than Islam is, and that Christianty went through phases like witch hunting and Spanish Inquisitions, and now Muslims are going through a similar phase.

    I don't think Buddhism has ever gone through phases like that though.
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    maybe instead of WEAPONS we only really need EDUCATION. and a bit of passive agressiveness
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  38. #238  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    A friend at work mentioned to me that Christianity is much older in origin than Islam is, and that Christianty went through phases like witch hunting and Spanish Inquisitions, and now Muslims are going through a similar phase.
    What is interesting is that even though Christianity came first, Christianity only became militant after Islam showed up on the scene and became militant.

    Islam seems like a small threat today, but when it began the Islamic army was the strongest force on the planet. It spread throughout the middle East and North Africa, and then proceeded into Spain and began to march into France before it was finally stopped by a gathering of forces from around Western Europe.

    The leadership of those forces turned to Christianity to give them a militant religious ideal to combat the militant religious ideal of their enemies. It's a classic case of becoming a monster to defeat a monster.


    I don't think Buddhism has ever gone through phases like that though.
    Yeah. Probably we could all learn a lot from the Buddhists.
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  39. #239  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If I run a statistical analysis that tells me that searching 5% of the Muslims who walk through the airport checkpoint will reduce the likelihood of a terrorist incident by 50%, but searching 5% of the Baptists who walk through those checkpoints would only reduce the likelihood by 0.0001%, then the time and resources I spend searching those 5% of Baptists is just wasted. It's an investment with no return.
    By that logic, you should stop-and-search only black people when looking for criminals in cities; the odds are better. Doing searches on white people is a poor investment.
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  40. #240  
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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginOfSpecies View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFosterKid View Post
    Is it just me or are Muslims getting as much hate as Jews got leading up to the Holocaust?
    This is Laughable/an Obscenity.
    Jews were rounded up and killed Industrially in Europe.
    Muslims/Muslim immigrants OTOH, are ravaging Europe with crime and successful cultural demands.

    More Muslims are killed every day BY Other Muslims than anyone else. Especially, but not limited to Sunni v Shia.
    Here's one from This AM:
    Talks on Iraqi Government Suspended after Attack on Sunni Mosque - WSJ
    40 Killed by Shia in a Sunni Mosque.

    Many People die EVERY Day in the NAME Of Islam: non-Muslims or Muslims of other sects.


    Horrendous attempt at PC resulting is about an Ass-Backwards post as can be imagined.
    `
    I have to agree.
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  41. #241  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If I run a statistical analysis that tells me that searching 5% of the Muslims who walk through the airport checkpoint will reduce the likelihood of a terrorist incident by 50%, but searching 5% of the Baptists who walk through those checkpoints would only reduce the likelihood by 0.0001%, then the time and resources I spend searching those 5% of Baptists is just wasted. It's an investment with no return.
    By that logic, you should stop-and-search only black people when looking for criminals in cities; the odds are better. Doing searches on white people is a poor investment.
    The irony is that racial profiling is very effective.

    But if it is allowed for the police to use it, they tend to use it too much, to the point where it causes excessive annoyance for the people who are targeted by it.

    If the police were able to keep it within reasonable limits, I wouldn't object. I've been profiled by police on at least two separate occasions for reasons that had nothing to do with race, and it really didn't bother me. Once because I looked too young to be driving a nice car alone across the highway in Wyoming. The officer was honest enough to tell me outright that he had pulled me over simply because I matched that profile, and asked permission to search the car, which I freely gave. However, he also had me for speeding. Not sure how much. His words were "fast enough to pull you over for it." And after searching my car and finding nothing he let me go with just a warning.

    The other time was because I was driving a different car, but one which looked quite a lot like a drug dealer car, and it was in the drug dealing part of town of Portland, OR. However, the officer seemed to wince slightly when he saw that I was white. I suppose if I had been black he would have thought he had matched three separate criteria. Anyway, this officer was also honest enough to tell me outright that the reason he had stopped me was because I matched a profile (2 parts of it anyway.) He didn't actually search my car. This time I wasn't speeding, or breaking any traffic laws.

    If you're doing nothing wrong, and it happens to you infrequently, then I just plain can't see any reason to object. If it happens too frequently, then I would understand being mad about it, because too frequent searching is quite inconvenient and places an excessively disproportionate burden on one segment of the population for something we all ought to contribute to.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza

    PRESS RELEASE: Jewish Holocaust survivors from around the world call for justice in Gaza

    [8/24/14 San Francisco, CA] 40 Jewish survivors of the Nazi Holocaust and 287 descendants of survivors and victims issued a letter this weekend condemning Israel’s actions in Gaza. “As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine.” The letter, with signatories from 26 countries representing four generations of survivors and descendants, ran on page A13 of the Saturday, August 23rd edition of the New York Times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurieag View Post
    BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza

    PRESS RELEASE: Jewish Holocaust survivors from around the world call for justice in Gaza

    [8/24/14 San Francisco, CA] 40 Jewish survivors of the Nazi Holocaust and 287 descendants of survivors and victims issued a letter this weekend condemning Israel’s actions in Gaza. “As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine.” The letter, with signatories from 26 countries representing four generations of survivors and descendants, ran on page A13 of the Saturday, August 23rd edition of the New York Times.
    Humbug, hamAss got exactly what they deserved.
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    In other news,

    The Association of German National Jews (Verband nationaldeutscher Juden) was a Jewish organisation during the Weimar Republic and the early years of Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support Hitler.
    Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    In other news,

    The Association of German National Jews (Verband nationaldeutscher Juden) was a Jewish organisation during the Weimar Republic and the early years of Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support Hitler.
    Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Otherwise known as "Kapo".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    A friend at work mentioned to me that Christianity is much older in origin than Islam is, and that Christianty went through phases like witch hunting and Spanish Inquisitions, and now Muslims are going through a similar phase.

    I don't think Buddhism has ever gone through phases like that though.
    Not quite, but it did have a period of warfare in China.
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    Everyone should realize that it is not the religion that is the real problem. It is the extremist that are the problem. There are many predominately Muslim countries worldwide that are peacefully practicing their religion. This being the case I would think we should consider the ethnicity of the extremist and violent Muslims. They are predominately Arabs. This being the case we should examine why these groups are prone to jihad.

    In the past I thought that it could be educational differences or the lack of education that caused these groups of Arabs to be prone to violence.
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    Moderator Warning: As far as I can see your post has two problems:
    1. It contravenes the forum guidelines on racial abuse.
    2. It ignores the fact that extremism arises in particular political and economic situations, wholly unrelated to ethnicity.

    Clean your act up fast. Do not respond to this warning here - send a pm, make a report, open up a discussion in the appropriate sub-forum, nothing else.
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  49. #249  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post

    2. It ignores the fact that extremism arises in particular political and economic situations, wholly unrelated to ethnicity.
    .
    That isn't necessarily true. Several of the 9/11 attackers were from places that have no serious economic problems, and from families that were well off. The pilots were known as the "Hamburg Cell" because they met in Hamburg, Germany.

    The anger of extremists tends to be focused on causes that are centered in places with bad economies, but the practitioners can be from any economic background under the sun.

    As for "Arab Ethnicity", it would probably appear to be ethnic because ethnic Arabs usually speak Arabic. But probably the Arabic language is the common denominator, not Arabic ethnicity. I'm pretty sure the terror groups wreaking havoc on Iraq aren't ethnic Arabs, but they do predominantly speak Arabic.

    Common speakers of a language tend to get access to the same media, and communication tends toward being isolated along linguistic lines. So if you speak Arabic, then it is more likely that you have heard one version of events, but if you speak English, then it is likely you've heard another version of events, or if you speak Russian you might have heard a third version of events. The angriest people will tend to be the ones who have heard the worst version of events.
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  50. #250  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post

    2. It ignores the fact that extremism arises in particular political and economic situations, wholly unrelated to ethnicity.
    .
    That isn't necessarily true. Several of the 9/11 attackers were from places that have no serious economic problems, and from families that were well off.
    Are you claiming that being well of, with no economic problems is not an example of an economic situation? I was crediting the audience to be able to understand the significance of an unqualified phrase "economic situations", rather than a qualified one such as "desperate economic situations", or "affluent economic situations".

    I am sure you are aware of the disillusionment common in many young persons that can, under particular conditions, lead to resentment against the entire system, rebellion and in extreme cases radicalization. Parents who "bask" in their solid social and economic position, while ignoring the plight of their fellows in - for example - Palestine can, inadvertently drive their children in just such a direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The anger of extremists tends to be focused on causes that are centered in places with bad economies, but the practitioners can be from any economic background under the sun.
    Which is entirely in line with what I said.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    As for "Arab Ethnicity", it would probably appear to be ethnic because ethnic Arabs usually speak Arabic. But probably the Arabic language is the common denominator, not Arabic ethnicity. I'm pretty sure the terror groups wreaking havoc on Iraq aren't ethnic Arabs, but they do predominantly speak Arabic.
    I completely agree. I was simplifying it for pineapple, who seems quite unaware of this, but is looking at this through the blinkered eyes of a racist. If he is not a racist-in the broadest sense, he needs to stop making racist posts. Duck quack, etc.
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    Im sorry that this came off as racist in any way shape or form. My conclusion is derived from looking at all countries that are predominately Muslim for example Indonesia, Turkey, Egypt or Iran where the practice of Islam is rarely extreme and then comparing them with the other predominately Muslim countries that are violent. Maybe I should use a national term to describe these people such as Iraqi or Syrian.

    When did the word Arab or speaking of a groups ethnicity become racist to describe a cultural or educational difference ? When only 25% ? of practicing Muslims live in the Arab Leauge Countries and 95% of all the violent jihad is apparently sanctioned in these countries, I believe the difference has to be culture and education.
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  52. #252  
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    Yeah. I see what you're getting at. Nobody is looking for a genetic cause, so I can't see a problem here.

    The issue is wondering why so much of the world's violence seems to be concentrated in one area. I'm leaning toward world view, rather than education level. There are plenty of areas on Earth where people are less educated. There are also plenty of other areas where Islam is dominant.

    I imagine part of it is combined feeling of humiliation. The 20th century was disproportionately humiliating for that region. They lost world war 1 only to find all of their territories were now claimed by one European power or another. One region (Palestine) gets colonized outright by Europeans (European Jewish people, but still, predominantly European). So they have two major wars trying to get rid of the colony, and both fail miserably.

    Saudi Arabia is the dominant cultural power in the region, and half of its citizens (or more) feel like the Saudi royal family is just a puppet dictatorship installed to serve the interests of the USA. (Ironic, since the Saudis have managed to manipulate the USA into helping them stack the oil market for themselves, with OPEC at the center.)

    I can see misguided patriotism working strongly in all of this. That, and they're probably getting an earful every day about the poor Palestinians, from Al Jazeera and other news outlets.
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  53. #253  
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    *LIKE* for John Galt.
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  54. #254  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post

    2. It ignores the fact that extremism arises in particular political and economic situations, wholly unrelated to ethnicity.
    .
    That isn't necessarily true. Several of the 9/11 attackers were from places that have no serious economic problems, and from families that were well off.
    Are you claiming that being well of, with no economic problems is not an example of an economic situation? I was crediting the audience to be able to understand the significance of an unqualified phrase "economic situations", rather than a qualified one such as "desperate economic situations", or "affluent economic situations".

    I am sure you are aware of the disillusionment common in many young persons that can, under particular conditions, lead to resentment against the entire system, rebellion and in extreme cases radicalization. Parents who "bask" in their solid social and economic position, while ignoring the plight of their fellows in - for example - Palestine can, inadvertently drive their children in just such a direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The anger of extremists tends to be focused on causes that are centered in places with bad economies, but the practitioners can be from any economic background under the sun.
    Which is entirely in line with what I said.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    As for "Arab Ethnicity", it would probably appear to be ethnic because ethnic Arabs usually speak Arabic. But probably the Arabic language is the common denominator, not Arabic ethnicity. I'm pretty sure the terror groups wreaking havoc on Iraq aren't ethnic Arabs, but they do predominantly speak Arabic.
    I completely agree. I was simplifying it for pineapple, who seems quite unaware of this, but is looking at this through the blinkered eyes of a racist. If he is not a racist-in the broadest sense, he needs to stop making racist posts. Duck quack, etc.

    In other Islamic countries with the same economic condition as the countries that make up the Arab league there is not the same proclivity towards violence. Culturally, Im not certain that the nomadic Arabs consider nationality because of the tribal type society they live in. Im using Arab to describe Mideastern ethnicity the same as I would describe Caucasian as a European ethnicity with out regard to nationality. My point is that it does not seem to be an economic condition but possibly a cultural difference between the different groups of Muslims. Culture would include education, imo.
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  55. #255  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007 View Post

    Culturally, Im not certain that the nomadic Arabs consider nationality because of the tribal type society they live in.
    Yeah. We don't need to become so colorblind that we don't even recognize another group's lack of colorblindness. The tribal issue is something I've heard from a number of people coming out of the middle East. Apparently, in that culture, your tribe is your nation. Hardly anyone cares where the official boundaries are drawn.

    I had a friend who was involved in training the Iraqi military, and he told me that one of the biggest problems was that soldiers would ignore military rank in favor of tribal standings. Made it kind of hard to have discipline.

    Ignoring cultural tendencies is pretty much exactly why it's so hard to figure out what to do over there. We keep trying to imagine these people thinking about things exactly how a European or American would think of them, and they keep "disappointing" us, by thinking about things their own way.
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