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Thread: No more private Schools?

  1. #1 No more private Schools? 
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    I believe that all children should have an equal education. This should have nothing to do with how rich their parents are or the area where they grow up. This I suppose is a socialist view point or though I feel it is more about true equality. I feel the choice of being Tuition FEE private or state damages the poorest children of all nations. Why should children be condemned by the lack of wealth of their parents? Are they not Innocent? Private Schools seem to create elite classes based upon wealth and not upon intelligence. This can only damage society as a whole ( I feel ). For myself all children are our future and they shouldn't be unfairly treated from the word go. Could this be Possible? Is it not Fair? Why would not allowing TUITION FEE private Schools be a bad Thing?


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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I believe that all children should have an equal education. This should have nothing to do with how rich their parents are or the area where they grow up. This I suppose is a socialist view point or though I feel it is more about true equality. I feel the choice of being private or state damages the poorest children of all nations. Why should children be condemned by the lack of wealth of their parents? Are they not Innocent? Private Schools seem to create elite classes based upon wealth and not upon intelligence. This can only damage society as a whole ( I feel ). For myself all children are our future and they shouldn't be unfairly treated from the word go. Could this be Possible? Is it not Fair? Why would not allowing private Schools be a bad Thing?
    How would you go about prohibiting private schools?

    If it is wrong for someone to use their money, earned through work that contributes to the well-being of society, is it also wrong for you to use your money to purchase a TV when there are children in some countries dying of starvation?


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    Is it a child's fault that his education will be based upon his familes wealth?

    As for prohibiting private Schools....I think that's obvious. Although at moment it would be very difficult given the amount of private schools out there.
    Last edited by jonio; May 1st, 2014 at 10:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I believe that all children should have an equal education. This should have nothing to do with how rich their parents are or the area where they grow up. This I suppose is a socialist view point or though I feel it is more about true equality. I feel the choice of being private or state damages the poorest children of all nations. Why should children be condemned by the lack of wealth of their parents? Are they not Innocent? Private Schools seem to create elite classes based upon wealth and not upon intelligence. This can only damage society as a whole ( I feel ). For myself all children are our future and they shouldn't be unfairly treated from the word go. Could this be Possible? Is it not Fair? Why would not allowing private Schools be a bad Thing?
    I'm afraid it's only natural to want the best for your children. Just look at Diane Abbott (if you live in the UK, that is).

    At least the people who spend their money this way are (a) spending it to help their kids, not blowing it on fast cars or expensive holidays, and (b) they are leaving space in the state system for someone else even though they are paying for one themselves. And I agree with John G's more general point that those with more money will always have more choice than those with less - and as a society we don't seem to be too troubled by that. David Beckham doesn't get pilloried for having a nice house.

    And in practice, if one were to prohibit private schooling, the state system would be gamed by pushy parents even more than it is now, via moving house to good catchment areas, pushing up the local price of housing and again excluding the poorer from the good schools.

    I think myself that it is far better to focus on good schooling in the state sector, i.e. level up, rather than prohibit the best schools, which can only level down, weakening the competitiveness of the country in the process. I think the moral pressure in the UK now on private schools to do more to help state schools in their area with weaker facilities is a good thing. And generally breaking down the barriers between state and private sectors is a good thing too. The aim should be a good education for as many as possible, no matter how it is delivered.

    In France, where confidence in the state schools is higher, almost everybody uses them. But even there, there is a huge difference depending on neighbourhood and this is a motivation for choosing where to live - and affects house prices etc.
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    I'm not sure what the context is here, but will assume it's the US.

    There's several incorrect premises in the OP. Nearly half of private schools show no better performance than public schools. And in both private and public schools there's huge range and overlap between the two. Socioeconomic of the family has more of an effect than the school irrespective of whether it is private or public--the reasons for this are many including lack of health care for the poor and quality of enrichment in the home.

    You also assume parents send their kids to schools for the best academic opportunities, when in fact, a huge minority do not and instead pay for private schools that subscribe to their personal philosophies.

    And I'm not sure why parents should be restricted from buying things for their children including their education. What is the point of that? What's next, that we put a limit on the size of car they should own? Declaring that rich parents can't allow their children to play in the private park? Or wear shoes worth more than $50? Or perhaps no new clothes for younger children with same sexed older siblings (I mean poor kids wear hand me downs so rich kids must as well!)

    I would completely agree with baseline educational requirements for private schools to qualify with State attendance and educational laws to ensure that children are getting an education. (and yes many of the superstitious private school in the US would need to change).
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; May 1st, 2014 at 11:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    As for prohibiting private Schools....I think that's obvious.
    If it was obvious to me I would not have asked you how you go about doing it.

    Now please address my other question: "If it is wrong for someone to use their money, earned through work that contributes to the well-being of society, is it also wrong for you to use your money to purchase a TV when there are children in some countries dying of starvation?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    As for prohibiting private Schools....I think that's obvious.
    If it was obvious to me I would not have asked you how you go about doing it.

    Now please address my other question: "If it is wrong for someone to use their money, earned through work that contributes to the well-being of society, is it also wrong for you to use your money to purchase a TV when there are children in some countries dying of starvation?"
    What has your question got to do with this Thread?....I was talking from the child's perspective not yours who wants to buy what's best for your kids.

    I feel it is the un-equal system of the private schools ( the ideas it imprint on the brain of its pupils ) that for me is the problem. One that carries through the child's life into adult life. Yes in the U.k there are great state schools but the wealthy buy up all the houses around that catchment area so that their kids can get in. In some sense creating a kind of private school. I don't actually know what the difference in schools is in America....I would assume it varies on the funding that the school gets ( most of the time ) . My point is....are private schools good for our children? ...should not all schools be equally funded by the country as a whole? No choice, not better choice if your rich?.Where the opportunities are really about intelligence..are not all children innocent of Wealth? It is a fact that socially children are extremely effected by the place in which they start life. Does private schooling not encourage Class separation? No I am not a communist ( it doesn't work it goes against our nature) , but with schooling I feel it should be equal by principle. Which schools do our leaders go to? How much has wealth help them to their Position? ( as a whole, so please not odd examples ). For example the conservative party of England has become increasingly privately educated. Is it right that a child is brought up with the sense of importance on the fact that their school costs $100,000 a Year? You pay because this school is excellent? Are the smartest children of America/UK getting the best education or are they being wasted, replaced by a rich kid with lower natural abilities? . My argument is about the ideology around the private schooling system and the effects it has on our future. Our kids.


    By the way....obvious would be by banning them....which I stated would be very difficult to do.

    The religious schools vs secular schools are a little more complicated..that could be decided locally though and shouldn't have anything to do with private or state.
    Last edited by jonio; May 1st, 2014 at 01:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    As for prohibiting private Schools....I think that's obvious.
    If it was obvious to me I would not have asked you how you go about doing it.

    Now please address my other question: "If it is wrong for someone to use their money, earned through work that contributes to the well-being of society, is it also wrong for you to use your money to purchase a TV when there are children in some countries dying of starvation?"
    What has your question got to do with this Thread?....I was talking from the child's perspective not yours who wants to buy what's best for your kids.

    I feel it is the un-equal system of the private schools ( the ideas it imprint on the brain of its pupils ) that for me is the problem. One that carries through the child's life into adult life. Yes in the U.k there are great state schools but the wealthy buy up all the houses around that catchment area so that their kids can get in. In some sense creating a kind of private school. I don't actually know what the difference in schools is in America....I would assume it varies on the funding that the school gets ( most of the time ) . My point is....are private schools good for our children? ...should not all schools be equally funded by the country as a whole? No choice, not better choice if your rich?.Where the opportunities are really about intelligence..are not all children innocent of Wealth? It is a fact that socially children are extremely effected by the place in which they start life. Does private schooling not encourage Class separation? No I am not a communist ( it doesn't work it goes against our nature) , but with schooling I feel it should be equal by principle. Which schools do our leaders go to? How much has wealth help them to their Position? ( as a whole, so please not odd examples ). For example the conservative party of England has become increasingly privately educated. Is it right that a child is brought up with the sense of importance on the fact that their school costs $100,000 a Year? You pay because this school is excellent? Are the smartest children of America getting the best education or are they being wasted as in England? Based upon natural I.q. My argument is about the ideology around the private schooling system and the effects it has on our future. Our kids.


    By the way....obvious would be by banning them....which I stated would be very difficult to do.

    The religious schools vs secular schools are a little more complicated..that could be decided locally though and shouldn't have anything to do with private or state.
    Yes this has been the argument of the Left in Britain for years and years. But the problem is due to what John G and I in our different ways, have been saying. Unless you believe in communism, you have to have very very good (=almost universally agreed) reasons to interfere to prevent people having the freedom to spend the money they have legally earned in the way they want. Private education doesn't meet these criteria. Like you I lament the fact that in BOTH British political parties a lot of the senior posts are now held by privately educated people (Tony Blair, Ed Balls and Harriet Harman went to private schools for example). This has got worse not better in the last 20 years, which I strongly suspect is due to the disappearance of the grammar schools which supplied us with PMs such as Harold Wilson, Ted Heath and Margaret Thatcher.

    The thing that grammar schools and the good private schools have in common is they were/are selective. So people who are not clever just don't get in. It's not just a matter of money therefore, it is money plus aptitude. Also, from what I read, a lot of this falling back of the non-selective state schools at the top level may be due to lack of ambition by the state schools when it comes to putting people forward to the very best universities. Oxford and Cambridge do a lot of work these days to encourage the state sector to put their best people forward - to rebuild some of the grammar school ethos the state sector once had.

    In France it all seems more egalitarian ……until you get to university level. At that point there is huge competition to get to one of the Grandes Ecoles. All the leaders of industry and government went to one or other of those. Going to a straight university pretty well rules you out of contention. These places are highly selective - and of course a lot of private coaching is done by middle class parents to give their children a better chance.

    So I'm afraid whatever system you have, those with a good education themselves and some money will find ways to help their children as well as they can. That is not an argument for doing nothing, but in my opinion it IS an argument for levelling up rather than down.
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    Looked up some studies on private schools in the UK and it appears the situation is quite similar to that in the US: academic achievement isn't the only (or even a primary goal) for parents, nor are private schools really doing better than public schools.

    From a comparative performance study across hundreds of schools:

    See page 7 summary.

    http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard...es/2006461.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    As for prohibiting private Schools....I think that's obvious.
    If it was obvious to me I would not have asked you how you go about doing it.

    Now please address my other question: "If it is wrong for someone to use their money, earned through work that contributes to the well-being of society, is it also wrong for you to use your money to purchase a TV when there are children in some countries dying of starvation?"
    What has your question got to do with this Thread?....I was talking from the child's perspective not yours who wants to buy what's best for your kids.

    I feel it is the un-equal system of the private schools ( the ideas it imprint on the brain of its pupils ) that for me is the problem. One that carries through the child's life into adult life. Yes in the U.k there are great state schools but the wealthy buy up all the houses around that catchment area so that their kids can get in. In some sense creating a kind of private school. I don't actually know what the difference in schools is in America....I would assume it varies on the funding that the school gets ( most of the time ) . My point is....are private schools good for our children? ...should not all schools be equally funded by the country as a whole? No choice, not better choice if your rich?.Where the opportunities are really about intelligence..are not all children innocent of Wealth? It is a fact that socially children are extremely effected by the place in which they start life. Does private schooling not encourage Class separation? No I am not a communist ( it doesn't work it goes against our nature) , but with schooling I feel it should be equal by principle. Which schools do our leaders go to? How much has wealth help them to their Position? ( as a whole, so please not odd examples ). For example the conservative party of England has become increasingly privately educated. Is it right that a child is brought up with the sense of importance on the fact that their school costs $100,000 a Year? You pay because this school is excellent? Are the smartest children of America getting the best education or are they being wasted as in England? Based upon natural I.q. My argument is about the ideology around the private schooling system and the effects it has on our future. Our kids.


    By the way....obvious would be by banning them....which I stated would be very difficult to do.

    The religious schools vs secular schools are a little more complicated..that could be decided locally though and shouldn't have anything to do with private or state.
    Yes this has been the argument of the Left in Britain for years and years. But the problem is due to what John G and I in our different ways, have been saying. Unless you believe in communism, you have to have very very good (=almost universally agreed) reasons to interfere to prevent people having the freedom to spend the money they have legally earned in the way they want. Private education doesn't meet these criteria. Like you I lament the fact that in BOTH British political parties a lot of the senior posts are now held by privately educated people (Tony Blair, Ed Balls and Harriet Harman went to private schools for example). This has got worse not better in the last 20 years, which I strongly suspect is due to the disappearance of the grammar schools which supplied us with PMs such as Harold Wilson, Ted Heath and Margaret Thatcher.

    The thing that grammar schools and the good private schools have in common is they were/are selective. So people who are not clever just don't get in. It's not just a matter of money therefore, it is money plus aptitude. Also, from what I read, a lot of this falling back of the non-selective state schools at the top level may be due to lack of ambition by the state schools when it comes to putting people forward to the very best universities. Oxford and Cambridge do a lot of work these days to encourage the state sector to put their best people forward - to rebuild some of the grammar school ethos the state sector once had.

    In France it all seems more egalitarian ……until you get to university level. At that point there is huge competition to get to one of the Grandes Ecoles. All the leaders of industry and government went to one or other of those. Going to a straight university pretty well rules you out of contention. These places are highly selective - and of course a lot of private coaching is done by middle class parents to give their children a better chance.

    So I'm afraid whatever system you have, those with a good education themselves and some money will find ways to help their children as well as they can. That is not an argument for doing nothing, but in my opinion it IS an argument for levelling up rather than down.

    I understand the point about a parents right to freedom of choice and paying for a private school. Athough for me a child is innocent of its birth. Its pot luck. The freedom of choice for them is their parents. Wealth has everything to do with it. the grammar school was not really selective ( I went to one ) , it was about catchment area. ..I had to pass no extra exams to enter or be more talented. My family paid for me to catch the bus but nothing else. School was free. The school in my catchmen area was not good and had less funding from its council. It was poorly managed also. It was an experimental school that differed to grammar schools. My point with private schools is are they good for our society?. It is one thing to say you have to be smart to get into private school....smart is narrowed down a lot when it comes to say Eton? Unless everyone can afford their school fees. Yet Eton boys end up in very dominant positions in society. Oxford and Cambridge should be for our countries finest brains but alas its for a select few....it is in a sense a crime on our belief in an equal and fair schooling system.

    The secrets of Oxbridge: What London's public school powerhouses are doing right - Life & Style - London Evening Standard

    Is this the best future for our kids? not our own personal children, but our nations future Collectively? We preach equality but its a myth. Freedom of choice has nothing to do with it.
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    Private schools fall under the broader category of private education. So, if my child attends public schools, I would be prohibited from hiring a tutor to teach him more than that offered in public schools? I would be prohibited myself from teaching my child beyond what the public schools teach? I can't even broach a topic at the dinner table that public schools have not "approved"? My child comes to me with a question about a topic that public schools have not deemed appropriate for his age, so I must tell him that we can't talk about it because public schools prohibit it? Must I admonish my child in hushed tones for broaching a topic that the public schools have not approved for his age? Where do we draw the "line"?

    The Freedom of Speech protected by the First Amendment addresses not only information that a person can express, but also information that a person can receive, because there's no use of having freedom of "speech" if no one can hear it.

    Okay, so maybe this goes over the "line" — I take my child out of public school and put him into a private school or I home school him. I only deprive him of a public school education. But, to force every child to attend public school? — and let's be realistic here, they aren't "public" schools, they are "government" schools. How totalitarian must we be? Every child from age 5 through 18 must be indoctrinated under government control for 7 hours per day and for 200 days of each year and children are not allowed to be exposed to information not approved by the government for his age. That's very, very, very scary indeed ... and untenable.

    This reminds me of a "joke" on socialism attributed to one of the Rockefellers —
    A socialist walks by a great mansion and scoffs, "No one should be that rich!"
    A capitalist walks by a great mansion and remarks, "Everyone should be that rich."
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I believe that all children should have an equal education. This should have nothing to do with how rich their parents are or the area where they grow up. This I suppose is a socialist view point or though I feel it is more about true equality. I feel the choice of being private or state damages the poorest children of all nations. Why should children be condemned by the lack of wealth of their parents?
    If public schools = "condemned" then you propose to condemn ALL students. A system that allows some to escape condemnation is better than a system where no one can escape.

    Why would not allowing private Schools be a bad Thing?
    Less freedom = bad.

    How about home schooling? That varies hugely, and someone with smart parents benefits unfairly. Should we outlaw that, so children of non-genius parents are not "condemned?"
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    I think the differences in resources should be bridged, not that private schools should be banned. The school standards need to consistent otherwise we will continuously see detrimental affects on certain children, Jrmonroe is committing a few fallacies in his arguments. He's claiming the apparent and naturally odious government would consume our children with their rampant and infectious agenda which is a different situation in regards to fair schooling for all children that the OP seems to be claiming.

    I feel a proper education should be free and indelible within our society, i don't see detrimental affects of such a setup.
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    I sincerely hope your ppost was in jest, but in case it wasn't...


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Private schools fall under the broader category of private education. So, if my child attends public schools, I would be prohibited from hiring a tutor to teach him more than that offered in public schools? I would be prohibited myself from teaching my child beyond what the public schools teach? I can't even broach a topic at the dinner table that public schools have not "approved"? My child comes to me with a question about a topic that public schools have not deemed appropriate for his age, so I must tell him that we can't talk about it because public schools prohibit it? Must I admonish my child in hushed tones for broaching a topic that the public schools have not approved for his age? Where do we draw the "line"?
    "Where do we draw the 'line'??"Probably somewhere before you take the idea over into crazy land. It's not a matter of what is taught but the quality of what is being taught. Some think that the private Academies have better quality of instructors when it's already been pointed out that Private schools can be Highly selective with their population... something public school can't do. Your thoughts on the matter are a strawman, way to come along with a light breeze and knock him over.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    The Freedom of Speech protected by the First Amendment addresses not only information that a person can express, but also information that a person can receive, because there's no use of having freedom of "speech" if no one can hear it.
    ACHOOO. I'm allergic to hay and since this strawman is now spread out all over the ground i get a bit sneezy.
    This was never the situation being discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Okay, so maybe this goes over the "line" — I take my child out of public school ... I home school him.
    Your poor child.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    I only deprive him of a public school education. But, to force every child to attend public school?
    As a society, we try to draft laws against stupidity. we can only do so much. It's counterproductive/irresponsible in society to be ignorant. So, yes, we "FORCE" students into opportunities where they may learn things.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    and let's be realistic here, they aren't "public" schools, they are "government" schools. How totalitarian must we be? Every child from age 5 through 18 must be indoctrinated under government control for 7 hours per day and for 200 days of each year and children are not allowed to be exposed to information not approved by the government for his age. That's very, very, very scary indeed ... and untenable.
    Good lord, could you be anymore hyperbolic? "government schools" are for the public. There are laws that say students must learn. It's the Governments job to provide opportunity for that to happen if they are going to issue decrees like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Every child from age 5 through 18 ...are not allowed to be exposed to information not approved by the government for his age.
    Absolutely not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    This reminds me of a "joke" on socialism attributed to one of the Rockefellers —
    A socialist walks by a great mansion and scoffs, "No one should be that rich!"
    A capitalist walks by a great mansion and remarks, "Everyone should be that rich."
    The Rockefellers are the best capitalists EVER!! Anti trust law were created because of the Rockefellers. The Rockefellers kept others from being that rich in order for themselves to be that rich. Maybe that's the joke?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Private schools fall under the broader category of private education. So, if my child attends public schools, I would be prohibited from hiring a tutor to teach him more than that offered in public schools? I would be prohibited myself from teaching my child beyond what the public schools teach? I can't even broach a topic at the dinner table that public schools have not "approved"? My child comes to me with a question about a topic that public schools have not deemed appropriate for his age, so I must tell him that we can't talk about it because public schools prohibit it? Must I admonish my child in hushed tones for broaching a topic that the public schools have not approved for his age? Where do we draw the "line"?

    The Freedom of Speech protected by the First Amendment addresses not only information that a person can express, but also information that a person can receive, because there's no use of having freedom of "speech" if no one can hear it.

    Okay, so maybe this goes over the "line" — I take my child out of public school and put him into a private school or I home school him. I only deprive him of a public school education. But, to force every child to attend public school? — and let's be realistic here, they aren't "public" schools, they are "government" schools. How totalitarian must we be? Every child from age 5 through 18 must be indoctrinated under government control for 7 hours per day and for 200 days of each year and children are not allowed to be exposed to information not approved by the government for his age. That's very, very, very scary indeed ... and untenable.

    This reminds me of a "joke" on socialism attributed to one of the Rockefellers —
    A socialist walks by a great mansion and scoffs, "No one should be that rich!"
    A capitalist walks by a great mansion and remarks, "Everyone should be that rich."

    You seem to be going overboard and are turning this into a freedom vs non freedom debate. Does a child have the freedom of choice to where he is Born? Are wealthy families children more entitled to freedom than poor families children? Is that freedom to you? Choice means Money! Nothing else to debate on the freedom point. The school in which a child is placed is not about freedom for them. Its about pot luck. Your arguments are about your choice as master over your children. My point is all children deserve as close to the same educational opportunities as is possible. It should not matter if their parents are rich or not. That's equality, that's fair to all children. The future of us all and America. Private education ( which you pay for ) creates in-equality in children's futures as a whole. . School standards or state controlling your children's brains has nothing to do with this point. The standard or method of a childs education has nothing to do at all with my point also. All schools should be the best they can be, and all children should have the same access to it. Children are innocent to any political ideology, be it capitalism or socialism...... I am talking about a truly fair education system that creates equal opportunities for all children regardless of their families wealth. I feel that the private system creates the opposite.....please again stop with the freedom argument....where's the child's freedom in this? Does your point mean that if a parent doesn't give a dam about his kids education that he has the freedom to ruin his Life? Home tuition is free....if its proved that the parent educating his child fits into the standards set by the law then fair enough ....I feel you could possibly ruin their social skills by keeping them in home and again has nothing to do with the child but more what the parent thinks is best for the child. Which is good unless the parents are nuts.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    You seem to be going overboard and are turning this into a freedom vs non freedom debate. Does a child have the freedom of choice to where he is Born?
    No. Nor does he have the freedom to avoid a deformity like spina bifida. However, it would surely be a mistake to give all OTHER children a spinal cord defect so life was more "fair" to him.
    Are wealthy families children more entitled to freedom than poor families children?
    No, they can all make their own choices.
    My point is all children deserve as close to the same educational opportunities as is possible.
    That will never, ever happen. A kid with Down Syndrome won't have the same opportunities. A kid born into poverty in Sudan won't have the same opportunities. That's life. You can make sure they have OPPORTUNITIES (a good goal) you cannot make them EQUAL.
    Private education ( which you pay for ) creates in-equality in children's futures as a whole.
    You are mistaking equal opportunity for equal stuff. You do not have the right to any car you want. You simply have the right to BUY any car you want, if you can afford it. You do not have the right to become an engineer. You simply have the right to pursue that career, and become an engineer if you are smart enough.

    If you're not smart enough? Too bad. You can't then ban everyone else from engineering to make sure you are still "equal."

    I feel that the private system creates the opposite.....please again stop with the freedom argument....where's the child's freedom in this?
    I had the freedom to go to both public and private schools. Mostly I went public; for high school, college and grad school I went private. My choice, and a whole lot of my money. You want to remove the freedom I had as a child.
    Home tuition is free...
    Right. But not all parents are good homeschoolers.
    .I feel you could possibly ruin their social skills by keeping them in home
    So you want to ban homeschooling too? How about good food? After all it's unfair that some kids get it and some don't. How about athletics? It's unfair that some kids are strong and some aren't.
    and again has nothing to do with the child but more what the parent thinks is best for the child. Which is good unless the parents are nuts.....
    So ban good parents, too - otherwise it's unfair that some kids have nuts for parents. They just won't have the same opportunities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    You seem to be going overboard and are turning this into a freedom vs non freedom debate..
    Monroe simply ran with your OP using the obvious restriction to freedom of parents to make educational choices for their kids you were imposing.

    Isn't the point to get all kids as good an education to reach their potential as we can as a society? With that in mind, does it really matter how it's achieved? The worse thing we could do is get rid of parental choices when they are consistent with that goal.

    --
    And as someone who's homeschooled, it is anything but free--in fact it's a considerable expense of materials, supplemental activities and of course time.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; May 1st, 2014 at 06:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    You seem to be going overboard and are turning this into a freedom vs non freedom debate..
    Monroe simply ran with your OP using the obvious restriction to freedom of parents to make educational choices for their kids you were imposing.

    Isn't the point to get all kids as good an education to reach their potential as we can as a society? With that in mind, does is really matter how it's achieved? The worse thing we could do is get rid of parental choices when they are consistent with that goal.

    --
    And as someone who's homeschooled, it is anything but free--in fact it's a considerable expense of materials, supplemental activities and of course time.
    No I am talking about the unfair opportunities private education creates for children as a whole. It is the old terrified of anything that sounds socialist that has turned the question of the in-equality of the private school system into taking away freedoms of choice. Is the private school system Fair? Why don't people explain why they it think that it is? ...or is that the answer to why its Fair? because it gives rich people the freedom of choice. Whether private schools are good for a society or create a completely unfair advantage for children who's parents have the money is the question..As I have pointed out over and over, its not about freedom of choice if money is the only thing that gives you that choice....It is unfair and unjust....Do Christians believe that a child deserves to have less opportunities in life because of where he is Born? Is this freedom for your Kids? Are your children in a school you hate...one you know will get them nowhere but you can't afford to get them out of It? Is that the child's Fault?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Is the private school system Fair?
    As much as the public school system is. In my hometown (Oyster Bay/East Norwich) we had an OK school system. The Hicksville school system (yes that was really their name) was awful. Cold Spring Harbor was one of the best in the state. Is it fair that a kid born in Cold Spring Harbor got a great school while the Hicksville kids got a lousy school? Nope.

    But the worst possible solution would be to close Cold Spring Harbor schools so kids don't have an unfair advantage. The best solution would be to get the other schools up to that standard.

    because it gives rich people the freedom of choice.
    We weren't rich; my parents were public school teachers, and their parents were penniless immigrants. Fortunately I had the freedom to go to private schools, as did a lot of other poor kids. I knew a lot of them. One of them, Uneal, was getting a free ride to meet a quota the school had to meet. He had been born in India and his family had almost nothing.

    How would taking his choice away make things more fair?

    Do Christians believe that a child deserves to have less opportunities in life because of where he is Born?
    Nope. But that's an argument against public schools, not private schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    You seem to be going overboard and are turning this into a freedom vs non freedom debate. Does a child have the freedom of choice to where he is Born?
    No. Nor does he have the freedom to avoid a deformity like spina bifida. However, it would surely be a mistake to give all OTHER children a spinal cord defect so life was more "fair" to him.
    Are wealthy families children more entitled to freedom than poor families children?
    No, they can all make their own choices.


    What is your point? What has down syndrome children got to do with It?
    My point is all children deserve as close to the same educational opportunities as is possible.
    That will never, ever happen. A kid with Down Syndrome won't have the same opportunities. A kid born into poverty in Sudan won't have the same opportunities. That's life. You can make sure they have OPPORTUNITIES (a good goal) you cannot make them EQUAL.
    Private education ( which you pay for ) creates in-equality in children's futures as a whole.
    You are mistaking equal opportunity for equal stuff. You do not have the right to any car you want. You simply have the right to BUY any car you want, if you can afford it. You do not have the right to become an engineer. You simply have the right to pursue that career, and become an engineer if you are smart enough.

    If you're not smart enough? Too bad. You can't then ban everyone else from engineering to make sure you are still "equal."

    I feel that the private system creates the opposite.....please again stop with the freedom argument....where's the child's freedom in this?
    I had the freedom to go to both public and private schools. Mostly I went public; for high school, college and grad school I went private. My choice, and a whole lot of my money. You want to remove the freedom I had as a child.
    Home tuition is free...
    Right. But not all parents are good homeschoolers.
    .I feel you could possibly ruin their social skills by keeping them in home
    So you want to ban homeschooling too? How about good food? After all it's unfair that some kids get it and some don't. How about athletics? It's unfair that some kids are strong and some aren't.
    and again has nothing to do with the child but more what the parent thinks is best for the child. Which is good unless the parents are nuts.....
    So ban good parents, too - otherwise it's unfair that some kids have nuts for parents. They just won't have the same opportunities.
    What is your point?...what has giving all other children spinal defects got to do with anything I have Wrote? Is your point the world is unfair and that's the way it Is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Is the private school system Fair?
    As much as the public school system is. In my hometown (Oyster Bay/East Norwich) we had an OK school system. The Hicksville school system (yes that was really their name) was awful. Cold Spring Harbor was one of the best in the state. Is it fair that a kid born in Cold Spring Harbor got a great school while the Hicksville kids got a lousy school? Nope.

    But the worst possible solution would be to close Cold Spring Harbor schools so kids don't have an unfair advantage. The best solution would be to get the other schools up to that standard.

    because it gives rich people the freedom of choice.
    We weren't rich; my parents were public school teachers, and their parents were penniless immigrants. Fortunately I had the freedom to go to private schools, as did a lot of other poor kids. I knew a lot of them. One of them, Uneal, was getting a free ride to meet a quota the school had to meet. He had been born in India and his family had almost nothing.

    How would taking his choice away make things more fair?

    Do Christians believe that a child deserves to have less opportunities in life because of where he is Born?
    Nope. But that's an argument against public schools, not private schools.
    I am talking about making all schools equal and the best they can be. Not ones where you get a quick paid ticket to the top. All children deserve an equal education. Private prevents that by its very nature. To add further to my point. It should be centrally funded equally. Not locally. So that the economics of the area would not effect the standard of the state school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I am talking about making all schools equal and the best they can be. Not ones where you get a quick paid ticket to the top.
    I'm all for that! Keep the best private schools and then bring every other school up to their level.
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    Errr, this is not fair. This is like taxing those with higher income more, versus those with mean to lower income. If you can afford a private school, why be condemned for it? I understand where you are coming from about the intelligence and wealth factor. However, think if all the wealthy children, which not all wealthy children go to private school, were to go to public school. That private schools were no longer an option anywhere around the world, I only say this because there are also boarding schools. Then, what says that those with wealthier parents will not be favoured more than those without? Would that not just create more issues in fairness within the school body? Demanding there to be no more private schools will not help create equality, instead it would just create internal conflicts and segregation within the combined group of wealthy and non-wealthy children. I am oppose to condemning the wealthier to spare the poor, after all, as stated above, it is fair to have access to things based on what you have earned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    My point is all children deserve as close to the same educational opportunities as is possible.
    you seem to be under the impression that private schools are automatically better than public schools. They are not. The student isn't a passive bystander in all of this. All Schools offer opportunity (public and private) it is up to the student to embrace that opportunity. All demographics being equal, a motivated student in public school is more likely to succeed than an unmotivated student at a private school. Not only that, but all of the best teachers don't only work at private schools and only crappy teachers work at Public, So your premise is faulty from the start.
    Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from and it does suck that some people can afford better things for their families by exploiting other peoples' families. but that is reality of the feudal system that we have now come back to live in again.

    I've been saying for years that our government means nothing if the businesses are allowed to become stronger than the government, only to find out (just recently) I've been completely validated by FDR:
    The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is fascism —
    I understand the idea for back when, because the government was strong and could crush people and businesses but now we have businesses that the threat of the government means nothing to them. businesses are stronger than our government. Do businesses care if we're free? nope. Should businesses be trusted with our freedom? absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It should not matter if their parents are rich or not. That's equality, that's fair to all children.
    Equal is not fair and fair is not equal. They are not synonyms. Right now our system is fair because it is not equal. trying to equalize it would make it not fair.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    No I am talking about the unfair opportunities private education creates for children as a whole..
    This isn't based on the school but the parents those kids are born to. that kid will "succeed" no matter what school he/she goes to. Look at geroge W., dumb as a bag of rocks but still quite the success isn't he?
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Do Christians believe that a child deserves to have less opportunities in life because of where he is Born?
    Nope. But that's an argument against public schools, not private schools.
    I fail to see how... a public school must take everyone while Private schools can be exclusionary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    All children deserve an equal education. Private prevents that by its very nature.
    not everyone who attends private school is guaranteed to succeed, just like not everyone who attends public school is doomed to fail.
    other than that the rest of your post is solid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Errr, this is not fair. This is like taxing those with higher income more, versus those with mean to lower income.
    and here is where we split. It is completely fair. you're right if you mean it's not equal but equal does not mean fair. a flat tax is completely NOT fair, and ruins society in the process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I believe that all children should have an equal education. This should have nothing to do with how rich their parents are or the area where they grow up. This I suppose is a socialist view point or though I feel it is more about true equality. I feel the choice of being private or state damages the poorest children of all nations.
    Think what you're asking for here. Either

    A) - The state needs to find enough money to give every child an education equal to the best possible private education.

    or

    B) - The state needs to prevent the children of wealthy parents from getting the best possible private education. In other words, force them to accept a worse education.


    A is obviously impossible. There isn't enough money in the world to give every kid an education equal to what the richest people are able to afford. It's not even possible in principle because there will always be someone who is "best" in their teaching field, and that person can't teach everyone.


    B is absurd. Society can't afford to forcibly undereducate its citizens. It's a waste. You're taking education that could have happened and destroying it. Like there's such a surplus of well educated people that we can afford to just go around stopping them from getting better educated.



    Why should children be condemned by the lack of wealth of their parents?
    Why are poor people allowed to even have kids? That seems to me to be the problem right there. Poor people aren't allowed to drive Ferraris, and everyone seems to be ok with that. Clearly a poor person shouldn't expect to be able to afford a Ferrari.

    Why are they allowed to have kids if they also can't afford that?

    It's not a silly comparison. Educating the children of poor parents may well end up costing as much as a Ferrari (maybe an entry level model anyway.)


    Are they not Innocent? Private Schools seem to create elite classes based upon wealth and not upon intelligence. This can only damage society as a whole ( I feel ). For myself all children are our future and they shouldn't be unfairly treated from the word go. Could this be Possible? Is it not Fair? Why would not allowing private Schools be a bad Thing?
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    Wealth should not create unfair advantages for childrens education ( although it does ). Education should be a level playing field and the brightest of our countries should have the same chance wherever they are born. Private schools create an unfair system based on wealth. That is not fair to children as they are innocent of wealth. What do the most expensive private schools teach their Children? That they are at the best school and are special. It creates a class distinction based unfairly on wealth. I believe this is wrong and goes against the idea of the so called American dream. That anyone can make it in America. Its a distorted myth. You have much more chance to make it in schools if your parents pay more. The more you pay the better the chance. Eton children of the U.k find themselves in Oxbridge in far more numbers than nearly all other schools. As I showed you before 5 schools in the U.k have more kids in Oxbridge than 2000 others. Is that because they are Smarter? Or Richer? Its the latter....I don't know how it is in Harvard but I am guessing it could be similar. My point is that money overides brains. Innocent children are blamed because of their parents wealth. Its not freedom. Its not equality. It doesnt bring out the best in our nations children. Money dictates your childs chances. Not natural ability.....Is this the future of mankinds Kids?

    As for paying for an equally good system....I agree, massive problems....that does not change the fact that private schools are morally and ethically wrong. I hope that it will change oneday. I hope that our nations will move beyond this for the future of our children. That brains beats wealth in the battle of education.
    Last edited by jonio; May 2nd, 2014 at 03:22 AM.
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    There's a lot of gaps in your logic here....first off you've already been shown that private schools don't do much better than public ones. Your blanket assumption is quite flimsy. While you are dwelling on the Oxford numbers, you'll also find that some public school also are quite successful in getting their children into ivy league schools--but most are not--just like private schools.

    Another touchy subject, but one worth bringing up is you are presuming that natural ability and wealth are independent variables. They are not. Poverty often relates to lack of prenatal, preschool and mother's healthcare, poor parenting (including abuse), and low enriched homes compared to wealthier family. Even if all children had identical schools, the children in impoverished communities would still on average result in lower achievement--it might even make it worse because they wouldn't be tailored to reach out and deal with specific community problems--equal doesn't mean fair and visa versa.

    "that private schools are morally and ethically wrong" This is really hitched to the caboose of the crazy train. How is it ethically wrong to want the best for your child?

    --
    I don't understand the open contempt for wealthy. One time fishing in Beaumont Texas a fiend and I watched a half dozen crabs try to climb out of a bucket. When one finally reached high enough to grip the edge and started to pull himself up, two other crabs attached themselves to the escaping one and caused his to loose his grip. My friend commented that crabs were like people.

    --

    Lets test this education logic on something else:

    I think the developed world should unlaw legal fatherhood. Children with fathers have higher success rates, more of them climbing up the socioeconomic ladder, better college achievement etc. This is unfair to fatherless children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    It's not a matter of what is taught but the quality of what is being taught.
    Then eliminate tenure.

    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    There are laws that say students must learn. It's the Governments job to provide opportunity for that to happen if they are going to issue decrees like that.
    ... and there are now laws that require students to have healthcare insurance, so must the government force them to obtain their healthcare only from government hospitals? I hope not.

    The *opportunity* that the government provides is in the form of public schools. However, it's not the government's job to *limit* educational opportunities.

    Besides, the laws don't say that students must *learn*. Good luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    My point is all children deserve as close to the same educational opportunities as is possible
    ... and all children have it — they have the option of attending public schools. It's the government's way of providing every child with the minimum amount of education that the government requires children to receive.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I am talking about the unfair opportunities private education creates for children as a whole.
    So, I ask you — Is it *not illegal* based on your proposed laws if I, or a tutor that I hire, teach my public-school children more than they learn at school?

    So then, is it a matter that either *all* students or *no* students will participate in the football team, space camp, etc?

    Regarding the alleged unfair opportunities private education supposedly creates, why should it stop at Grade 12? What about university? Why get them to the point where they can get a McJob, but no further? Why have sate universities if not everyone can attend?

    In discussing unfair opportunities for students, is it an unfair opportunity that richer students eat breakfasts at home instead of free breakfasts at school? Is it an unfair opportunity that richer students bring their lunches to school instead forcing them to eat free school lunches? Is it an unfair opportunity that the government helps feed poorer students during summer vacation?

    ###

    BTW, grmpysmrf and jonio, what's your opinion of current public school policy of separating each Grade into classes by IQ — for example, Grade 7 consists of the 7-1 Class, the 7-2 Class, the 7-3 Class, the 7-4 Class, etc? Why are the low IQ students in their classes denied the opportunities granted the high IQ students in their classes?
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    The controversy over private schools generally isn't whether people have a right to use their own money to send their kids to a different school (they do) but whether they should still be obligated to pay taxes that support public schools because it benefits society as whole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    The controversy over private schools generally isn't whether people have a right to use their own money to send their kids to a different school (they do) but whether they should still be obligated to pay taxes that support public schools because it benefits society as whole.
    I assume this is the controversy in the United States. If only it were the one we face here in the UK. Over here, people arguing against private schools cheerfully pocket the tax paid by non-users of state schools and then claim it's still unfair. Same goes for users of private medicine, who nonetheless continue to pay tax to support the NHS.
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    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ). As a society children should all be brought up as close to the same standards and opportunities as is possible. Private schools create a divide....create unfair advantages based upon wealth. That is not fair to innocent children and I believe not good for the future of us as a species. Unless of course we except that we will not move towards something better than what we have now. All adults should treat all children equally. Your personal wealth should not be able to create advantages for your children over that of others. As adults we should be doing all we can to make a better future for all children. Equally. All children deserve an equal start. All schools should be set to the highest standards achieved for all kids. Not just ones who have wealthy kids. As for the I.q point of earlier posts...why should children who are not as talented get the best positions? Your argument is null and void. You are saying that its not fair on those who have naturally less I.qs if all the best academic places goto those who have higher I.qs....Education should be about finding what is best for the child in question and pushed to help them achieve what is best for them...the private system seems to fail if all the wealthy kids end up in the best universities....whilst smarter less wealthy ones miss out on places....how is that good for us as a whole?

    Why don't people start posting about what's best for children ( our future ) than what's best for Them?
    Last edited by jonio; May 2nd, 2014 at 10:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Errr, this is not fair. This is like taxing those with higher income more, versus those with mean to lower income.
    and here is where we split. It is completely fair. you're right if you mean it's not equal but equal does not mean fair. a flat tax is completely NOT fair, and ruins society in the process.
    Noooooo! *sobs
    I just like expressing that opinion at any chance I get. Haha, do not worry, very rarely does anybody like that opinion or agrees with it. I mean I just do not think it is fair to pay in half a million dollars, where I could have easily paid in a fraction of that, had I been taxed the same as others of lower income. But I also hate paying in taxes so I oppose any taxes. Yes, you are correct, no taxes or a flat rate would ruin society. I will not argue that, because it is true, but I also just hate paying in taxes. *sobs like a whale
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ).
    Basically, you're a communist. I don't say that as a criticism, it's just the way you are looking at the world. You think the government should be an equalizer to remove the unfairness from the world. That's the way communists think. But you just can't do that without imposing draconian limits on people's freedom and dragging everyone else down to an equal state of misery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ). As a society children should all be brought up as close to the same standards and opportunities as is possible. Private schools create a divide....create unfair advantages based upon wealth. That is not fair to innocent children and I believe not good for the future of us as a species. Unless of course we except that we will not move towards something better than what we have now. All adults should treat all children equally. Your personal wealth should not be able to create advantages for your children over that of others. As adults we should be doing all we can to make a better future for all children. Equally. All children deserve an equal start. All schools should be set to the highest standards achieved for all kids. Not just ones who have wealthy kids. As for the I.q point of earlier posts...why should children who are not as talented get the best positions? Your argument is null and void. You are saying that its not fair on those who have naturally less I.qs if all the best academic places goto those who have higher I.qs....Education should be about finding what is best for the child in question and pushed to help them achieve what is best for them...the private system seems to fail if all the wealthy kids end up in the best universities....whilst smarter less wealthy ones miss out on places....how is that good for us as a whole?

    Why don't people start posting about what's best for children ( our future ) than what's best for Them?
    Not all rich kids end up in the best universities. Yes, some universities may take a higher importance to wealthy families, but this is also not absolute. Private schools are also filled with wealthy and extremely wealthy children. There will always be a divide within communities and within social classes. So to even think or ask for this so called fairness in regards to education is null as well. This will never happen, no matter how much you try to convince others and even if you were able to achieve to rid the world of private schools. Not everyone has an equal start, regardless of the school system, you will have those who are naturally smarter than others, and those who have disabilities that impede their intelligence to develop or expand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    It's not a matter of what is taught but the quality of what is being taught.
    Then eliminate tenure.
    You are out of your mind. Tenure exists because most admin get God complexes and want to get rid of teachers they don't like regardless of the job that they do. This happens constantly to nontenured teachers when admin is looking to make an example out of someone. Tenure keeps that from happening. What about when a teacher starts to top out the salary chart? Admin is looking to free up the budget so the more expensive teachers will be canned Regardless if they are a good teacher. Anyone that thinks teachers get tenure and are lazy is downright stupid and has obviously never been in a classroom full of students with nothing to do. teaching a lesson is much easier than having to endure bored students with no assignment.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    There are laws that say students must learn. It's the Governments job to provide opportunity for that to happen if they are going to issue decrees like that.
    ... and there are now laws that require students to have healthcare insurance, so must the government force them to obtain their healthcare only from government hospitals? I hope not.
    that is what the right has been pushing but private hospitals still exist and outnumber the clinics by a healthy margin.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    The *opportunity* that the government provides is in the form of public schools. However, it's not the government's job to *limit* educational opportunities.
    who said they were limiting opportunities? Opportunities are only really limited based on the funding the schools are able to get.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Besides, the laws don't say that students must *learn*. Good luck with that.
    I have already pointed that out. But a just government will provide the opportunity at the very least.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    My point is all children deserve as close to the same educational opportunities as is possible
    ... and all children have it — they have the option of attending public schools. It's the government's way of providing every child with the minimum amount of education that the government requires children to receive.
    we're in agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I am talking about the unfair opportunities private education creates for children as a whole.
    So, I ask you — Is it *not illegal* based on your proposed laws if I, or a tutor that I hire, teach my public-school children more than they learn at school?


    So then, is it a matter that either *all* students or *no* students will participate in the football team, space camp, etc?
    Again, he is under the impression that Private schools create an unfair advantage and not the position of privilege that the student already comes from. I can't speak for him because I don't necessarily support his argument, but I would think that tutors would have to be available for everyone and not selective like the private schools are. Same with space camp and football, but again, not an argument I can support.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Regarding the alleged unfair opportunities private education supposedly creates, why should it stop at Grade 12? What about university? Why get them to the point where they can get a McJob, but no further? Why have sate universities if not everyone can attend?
    because grade 12 is the minimum standard that the state has set as an acceptable standard of education. People can get better than a McJob with a grade 12 education. Because universities exist for those that would like to continue. We also have 2 year colleges for those who like to go to continue but perhaps don't have the money or the time or just plain don't want to go to a four year college. Everyone can attend universities.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    In discussing unfair opportunities for students, is it an unfair opportunity that richer students eat breakfasts at home instead of free breakfasts at school?
    Location has nothing to do with it. It is unfair that the richer kids get the opportunity to eat breakfast and the poorer kids don't. food is food no matter where you are eating it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Is it an unfair opportunity that richer students bring their lunches to school instead forcing them to eat free school lunches?
    Nobody is "forced" to eat school lunch. they can do without if they so choose. They are being provided a basic opportunity that they may not be able to have otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Is it an unfair opportunity that the government helps feed poorer students during summer vacation?
    No, but it certainly isn't the schools job to do so, but just out of curiosity what program is this?

    ###

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    BTW, grmpysmrf and jonio, what's your opinion of current public school policy of separating each Grade into classes by IQ — for example, Grade 7 consists of the 7-1 Class, the 7-2 Class, the 7-3 Class, the 7-4 Class, etc? Why are the low IQ students in their classes denied the opportunities granted the high IQ students in their classes?
    Where are they doing this? what you are talking about is illegal, it is called "tracking." I am against it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    The controversy over private schools generally isn't whether people have a right to use their own money to send their kids to a different school (they do) but whether they should still be obligated to pay taxes that support public schools because it benefits society as whole.
    correct. Tax money often times cannot be used for private school because often private schools are religious institutions and tax money shall not be used to support any religion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ).
    Basically, you're a communist. I don't say that as a criticism, it's just the way you are looking at the world. You think the government should be an equalizer to remove the unfairness from the world. That's the way communists think. But you just can't do that without imposing draconian limits on people's freedom and dragging everyone else down to an equal state of misery.
    That is nonsense....
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit.
    I don't think so. #1 Your starting with the assumption that a private school is better than a public school. So, again, your beginning premise is faulty. There is no guarantee that a private school is better than a public school. Private schools exist so that rich people don't have to send their students to school with the low life commoners. IT doesn't automatically mean that the education is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents.
    Again, under the assumption that Private school is better than public, which has not been show to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ). As a society children should all be brought up as close to the same standards and opportunities as is possible.
    Who says they are not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Private schools create a divide....create unfair advantages based upon wealth.
    THat is not done by the private schools, it is done by the financial and opportunity unfairness in our system. private schools is just a reflection of that unfair birth advantage. just because you go to a private school doesn't mean the education is better. IT just shows your parents are rich, nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    All adults should treat all children equally.
    So the kid in the wheelchair has to fail P.E. because we HAVE to treat him the same as the kids that can run? and since he can't run there is no way he can run the mile in the designated time?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Your personal wealth should not be able to create advantages for your children over that of others.
    Sure, but now you're changing the entire system. not only that, sometimes wealth has nothing to do with it. Maybe I get into a private school or get a good job simply because of who my parents know. My parents aren't wealthy but they know wealthy people... My cousin's family is not wealthy but he got into West Point because his dad knows a senator...Wealth has nothing to do with it.




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    As adults we should be doing all we can to make a better future for all children.
    We are, which is why the divide exists.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Equally.
    that's not fair


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    All children deserve an equal start.
    and they have one. they all leave the uterus.



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    All schools should be set to the highest standards achieved for all kids. Not just ones who have wealthy kids.
    who says they don't?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ). As a society children should all be brought up as close to the same standards and opportunities as is possible. Private schools create a divide....create unfair advantages based upon wealth. That is not fair to innocent children and I believe not good for the future of us as a species. Unless of course we except that we will not move towards something better than what we have now. All adults should treat all children equally. Your personal wealth should not be able to create advantages for your children over that of others. As adults we should be doing all we can to make a better future for all children. Equally. All children deserve an equal start. All schools should be set to the highest standards achieved for all kids. Not just ones who have wealthy kids. As for the I.q point of earlier posts...why should children who are not as talented get the best positions? Your argument is null and void. You are saying that its not fair on those who have naturally less I.qs if all the best academic places goto those who have higher I.qs....Education should be about finding what is best for the child in question and pushed to help them achieve what is best for them...the private system seems to fail if all the wealthy kids end up in the best universities....whilst smarter less wealthy ones miss out on places....how is that good for us as a whole?

    Why don't people start posting about what's best for children ( our future ) than what's best for Them?
    I'd still say you are barking up the wrong tree. It might be better to look at economic systems that create huge disparities of wealth, not limit what people can do with it once they have it. How can one argue that educating your kid is somehow worse than getting a face lift or buying a Mercedes?

    In Malcolm Gladwell's book The Outliers, he shows that statistically, poorer students in the US actually outlearn and out achieve rich kids, but lose those gains over the summer. Which means it's the over all supportive home and neighborhood environment, parents and other role models who read, attend cultural events, discuss various topics, can afford to go interesting places, etc. that makes the biggest difference. You can't prevent parents from taking their kids to the Smithsonian on vacation, or providing after school tutoring because it "isn't fair." You can only try to provide similar opportunities to disadvantaged kids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ).
    Basically, you're a communist. I don't say that as a criticism, it's just the way you are looking at the world. You think the government should be an equalizer to remove the unfairness from the world. That's the way communists think. But you just can't do that without imposing draconian limits on people's freedom and dragging everyone else down to an equal state of misery.
    That is nonsense....
    Sorry, brother, it's pretty accurate. Read into communism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ). As a society children should all be brought up as close to the same standards and opportunities as is possible. Private schools create a divide....create unfair advantages based upon wealth. That is not fair to innocent children and I believe not good for the future of us as a species. Unless of course we except that we will not move towards something better than what we have now. All adults should treat all children equally. Your personal wealth should not be able to create advantages for your children over that of others. As adults we should be doing all we can to make a better future for all children. Equally. All children deserve an equal start. All schools should be set to the highest standards achieved for all kids. Not just ones who have wealthy kids. As for the I.q point of earlier posts...why should children who are not as talented get the best positions? Your argument is null and void. You are saying that its not fair on those who have naturally less I.qs if all the best academic places goto those who have higher I.qs....Education should be about finding what is best for the child in question and pushed to help them achieve what is best for them...the private system seems to fail if all the wealthy kids end up in the best universities....whilst smarter less wealthy ones miss out on places....how is that good for us as a whole?

    Why don't people start posting about what's best for children ( our future ) than what's best for Them?
    Not all rich kids end up in the best universities. Yes, some universities may take a higher importance to wealthy families, but this is also not absolute. Private schools are also filled with wealthy and extremely wealthy children. There will always be a divide within communities and within social classes. So to even think or ask for this so called fairness in regards to education is null as well. This will never happen, no matter how much you try to convince others and even if you were able to achieve to rid the world of private schools. Not everyone has an equal start, regardless of the school system, you will have those who are naturally smarter than others, and those who have disabilities that impede their intelligence to develop or expand.
    Of course you have children who have different strengths....Ones who are naturally smarter than others....Schools should be working towards children's strengths....eg....a good scientist may not make a good soldier....Schools should bring out the best skills within children. To suit how they can adapt to society where both will benefit.... Money should have nothing to do with cheating children of their abilities...This goes to my point... Private schools seem to do this... They pay for an advantage... As I say over and over is it right of society to allow money to dictate that?....This is not a capitalist, communist debate....children know nothing of politics....why is this being brought into the debate?... I am writing about what's best for all children as a whole...an unfair system devised around money or one that goes to making it as good and as fair for all children. After school they can go into jobs and buy fast expensive cars and whatever other toys they like in the capitalist world..( I am not a communist, it doesn't work, it goes against human nature and has nothing to do with my point, how ever left it may seem ), This is about what is best for kids as a whole...All of them to benefit society as a Whole....Them, not you adults.... And your ideas of freedom of choice....Private schools may just be bringing kids up that instills the idea that dads money makes them smarter than poorer children..... How Dumb!
    Last edited by jonio; May 2nd, 2014 at 11:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    How can one argue that educating your kid is somehow worse than getting a face lift or buying a Mercedes?
    Let's not get ridiculous here, Education is not a "commodity," education is a right.

    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    You can't prevent parents from taking their kids to the Smithsonian on vacation, or providing after school tutoring because it "isn't fair." You can only try to provide similar opportunities to disadvantaged kids.
    Excellent point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Of course you have children who have different strengths....Ones who are naturally smarter than others....Schools should be working towards children's strengths....eg....a good scientist may not make a good soldier....Schools should be bring out the best skills within children. To suit how they can adapt to society where both will benefit....
    Assuming you have willing students.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Money should have nothing to do with cheating children of their abilities...
    Most often students do this to themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    This goes to my point... Private schools seem to do this...
    Why? how are you arriving at this conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    They pay for an advantage...
    What advantage?



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    As I say over and over is it right of society to allow money to dictate that....This is not a capitalist, communist debate....children know nothing of politics....why is this being brought into the debate.... I am writing about what's best for all children as a whole...an unfair system devised around money or one that goes to making it as good and as fair for all children. After school they can go into jobs and buy porches and whatever other toys they like in the capitalist world..( I am not a communist, it doesn't work, it goes against human nature and has nothing to do with my point, how ever left it may seem ), It is about what is best for kids as a whole...All of them to benefit society as a Whole....
    You have two competing interests. our system, our society is based on competition. unfortunately this includes Academics. essentially what you are saying is Education should be off limits to competition. that doesn't work because even if it's not financial other forms of competition will show up within the realm of academics and people will always have/find things that give them advantages over others.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Private schools may just be bringing kids up that instills the idea that dads money makes them smarter than poorer children..... How Dumb!
    that is essentially our whole argument. Dad's money doesn't make you smart. So now it's back to the student, private schools don't necessarily have better education.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ).
    Basically, you're a communist. I don't say that as a criticism, it's just the way you are looking at the world. You think the government should be an equalizer to remove the unfairness from the world. That's the way communists think. But you just can't do that without imposing draconian limits on people's freedom and dragging everyone else down to an equal state of misery.
    That is nonsense....
    Sorry, brother, it's pretty accurate. Read into communism.
    I am not a communist.......lol........it doesn't work....its goes against humans greedy nature...that's why it collapsed...believe me I spent my time in eastern Europe...I know from them why it doesn't work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Do Christians believe that a child deserves to have less opportunities in life because of where he is Born?
    Nope. But that's an argument against public schools, not private schools.
    I fail to see how... a public school must take everyone while Private schools can be exclusionary.
    Where I grew up, you could only go to the public school in the area you lived in. Too poor to move and you lived in Hicksville where housing is cheap? You're going to that lousy school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ).
    Basically, you're a communist. I don't say that as a criticism, it's just the way you are looking at the world. You think the government should be an equalizer to remove the unfairness from the world. That's the way communists think. But you just can't do that without imposing draconian limits on people's freedom and dragging everyone else down to an equal state of misery.
    That is nonsense....
    Sorry, brother, it's pretty accurate. Read into communism.
    I am not a communist.......lol........it doesn't work....its goes against humans greedy nature...that's why it collapsed...believe me I spent my time in eastern Europe...I know from them why it doesn't work.
    That was not communism, probably socialist dictatorship, very different... see the "Common misconceptions about Communist" thread in on page 2 or so. you may not be a communist but what you are proposing is very "Utopian Communist." Everybody, out of the goodness of their heart, will stop being greedy and do what is right for children and education. That is not sustainable let alone launch-able, because as you point out people are greedy by nature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Wealth should not create unfair advantages for childrens education ( although it does ).
    Yes, it should - and ideally it should create those advantages for everyone.

    What do the most expensive private schools teach their Children? That they are at the best school and are special.
    No, they don't.

    It creates a class distinction based unfairly on wealth. I believe this is wrong and goes against the idea of the so called American dream. That anyone can make it in America. Its a distorted myth. You have much more chance to make it in schools if your parents pay more. The more you pay the better the chance. Eton children of the U.k find themselves in Oxbridge in far more numbers than nearly all other schools.
    Good example. Your solution is to close down the best schools and send kids to the lousy schools instead. My solution would be to raise all schools to Eton's standards.
    As for paying for an equally good system....I agree, massive problems....that does not change the fact that private schools are morally and ethically wrong. I hope that it will change oneday. I hope that our nations will move beyond this for the future of our children. That brains beats wealth in the battle of education.
    They do. Brilliant kids get scholarships to wherever they want to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Do Christians believe that a child deserves to have less opportunities in life because of where he is Born?
    Nope. But that's an argument against public schools, not private schools.
    I fail to see how... a public school must take everyone while Private schools can be exclusionary.
    Where I grew up, you could only go to the public school in the area you lived in. Too poor to move and you lived in Hicksville where housing is cheap? You're going to that lousy school.
    That's just demographics, too poor to move means you're too poor to go to private school. If your talking school boundaries there are always ways around that. such as after school Babysitter lives in that area that you want, but you would be responsible for getting your child there cause the bus doesn't run into your boundary
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Of course you have children who have different strengths....Ones who are naturally smarter than others....Schools should be working towards children's strengths....eg....a good scientist may not make a good soldier....Schools should be bring out the best skills within children. To suit how they can adapt to society where both will benefit....
    Assuming you have willing students.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Money should have nothing to do with cheating children of their abilities...
    Most often students do this to themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    This goes to my point... Private schools seem to do this...
    Why? how are you arriving at this conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    They pay for an advantage...
    What advantage?



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    As I say over and over is it right of society to allow money to dictate that....This is not a capitalist, communist debate....children know nothing of politics....why is this being brought into the debate.... I am writing about what's best for all children as a whole...an unfair system devised around money or one that goes to making it as good and as fair for all children. After school they can go into jobs and buy porches and whatever other toys they like in the capitalist world..( I am not a communist, it doesn't work, it goes against human nature and has nothing to do with my point, how ever left it may seem ), It is about what is best for kids as a whole...All of them to benefit society as a Whole....
    You have two competing interests. our system, our society is based on competition. unfortunately this includes Academics. essentially what you are saying is Education should be off limits to competition. that doesn't work because even if it's not financial other forms of competition will show up within the realm of academics and people will always have/find things that give them advantages over others.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Private schools may just be bringing kids up that instills the idea that dads money makes them smarter than poorer children..... How Dumb!
    that is essentially our whole argument. Dad's money doesn't make you smart. So now it's back to the student, private schools don't necessarily have better education.
    If money is the reason schools compete ( or why teachers compete ) , then apply bonuses to teachers, there are many ways to compete. Private and state are no better and yet those in the run down areas of the city would not see it that way. Oxbridge would disagree. The political parties would disagree. There has been work by the government ( yes we as a nation are more to the left even if your conservative ) to address the fact that so many m.ps went to private schools but I feel why not get rid of them....?? Its all about the parent not the child....wealthy parents vs non wealthy parents.

    BBC News - Does a narrow social elite run the country?

    Is there a private school prejudice? - Telegraph

    Public school (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    I should also start a link.....do you have to be left or right Wing? Communist or Capitalist? Is there nothing in between in America? Is equality against capitalism? A child's start in Life?
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's just demographics, too poor to move means you're too poor to go to private school.
    Not with a scholarship. Again, case in point - Uneal. He was dirt poor, and if his only option was public school he'd have no choice. But since there was a private school that provided him with a scholarship, he had the opportunity to get a better education. Why deny poor people better educations?

    If your talking school boundaries there are always ways around that. such as after school Babysitter lives in that area that you want, but you would be responsible for getting your child there cause the bus doesn't run into your boundary
    Ah, so now you're advocating fraud? (It's based on your home address, not where the bus picks them up)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    .

    If money is the reason schools compete ( or why teachers compete ) , then apply bonuses to teachers, there are many ways to compete.
    How do you determine who gets bonuses?




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Private and state are no better and yet those in the run down areas of the city would not see it that way. Oxbridge would disagree. The political parties would disagree.
    Perception is not reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There has been work by the government ( yes we as a nation are more to the left even if your conservative )
    No we are not!! We're not even close to left, we're barely even close to the middle




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There has been work by the government...to address the fact that so many m.ps went to private schools but I feel why not get rid of them....??
    what are m.ps?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Its all about the parent not the child....wealthy parents vs non wealthy parents.
    It's like that for everything. "My kid is better than your kid" is never going away. Not even if you destroy private schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's just demographics, too poor to move means you're too poor to go to private school.
    Not with a scholarship. Again, case in point - Uneal. He was dirt poor, and if his only option was public school he'd have no choice. But since there was a private school that provided him with a scholarship, he had the opportunity to get a better education. Why deny poor people better educations?
    Well then get a scholarship... I'm not for destroying Private schools

    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    If your talking school boundaries there are always ways around that. such as after school Babysitter lives in that area that you want, but you would be responsible for getting your child there cause the bus doesn't run into your boundary
    Ah, so now you're advocating fraud? (It's based on your home address, not where the bus picks them up)
    Not at all. you can find child care in the boundary that you want. This is what my parents did to get me out of the school I was at. You go to the district and tell them that child care that you use is within another boundary and creates a hardship for your family. you supply them with the care provider's address and your granted the new school. Nothing fraudulent about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's just demographics, too poor to move means you're too poor to go to private school.
    Not with a scholarship. Again, case in point - Uneal. He was dirt poor, and if his only option was public school he'd have no choice. But since there was a private school that provided him with a scholarship, he had the opportunity to get a better education. Why deny poor people better educations?
    Well then get a scholarship... I'm not for destroying Private schools

    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    If your talking school boundaries there are always ways around that. such as after school Babysitter lives in that area that you want, but you would be responsible for getting your child there cause the bus doesn't run into your boundary
    Ah, so now you're advocating fraud? (It's based on your home address, not where the bus picks them up)
    Not at all. you can find child care in the boundary that you want. This is what my parents did to get me out of the school I was at. You go to the district and tell them that child care that you use is within another boundary and creates a hardship for your family. you supply them with the care provider's address and your granted the new school. Nothing fraudulent about that.
    I'm for absolutely destroying them and the toffs they produce....it has nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with money. They bring children up with an arrogance that they carry into society and positions. It is producing a class elite based upon dads money.....It doesn't help the economy having a bunch of twits brought up to believe they are superior via their dads wealth. Its stupid....
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's just demographics, too poor to move means you're too poor to go to private school.
    Not with a scholarship. Again, case in point - Uneal. He was dirt poor, and if his only option was public school he'd have no choice. But since there was a private school that provided him with a scholarship, he had the opportunity to get a better education. Why deny poor people better educations?
    Well then get a scholarship... I'm not for destroying Private schools

    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    If your talking school boundaries there are always ways around that. such as after school Babysitter lives in that area that you want, but you would be responsible for getting your child there cause the bus doesn't run into your boundary
    Ah, so now you're advocating fraud? (It's based on your home address, not where the bus picks them up)
    Not at all. you can find child care in the boundary that you want. This is what my parents did to get me out of the school I was at. You go to the district and tell them that child care that you use is within another boundary and creates a hardship for your family. you supply them with the care provider's address and your granted the new school. Nothing fraudulent about that.
    I'm for absolutely destroying them and the toffs they produce....it has nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with money. They bring children up with an arrogance that they carry into society and positions. It is producing a class elite based upon dads money.....It doesn't help the economy having a bunch of twits brought up to believe they are superior via their dads wealth. Its stupid....

    Ah. This is ignorant, chippy prejudice. The private schools that produce these elites are HIGHLY selective. They do not produce idiots. You are right that some can be arrogant and otherwise obnoxious, but don't make the error of thinking they are stupid. It is also true that there are quite a lot of private schools that are not very special intellectually, but these are not the ones (generally) who provide the future leaders. "Toffs" is an obnoxiously prejudiced term, by the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    .

    If money is the reason schools compete ( or why teachers compete ) , then apply bonuses to teachers, there are many ways to compete.
    How do you determine who gets bonuses?




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Private and state are no better and yet those in the run down areas of the city would not see it that way. Oxbridge would disagree. The political parties would disagree.
    Perception is not reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There has been work by the government ( yes we as a nation are more to the left even if your conservative )
    No we are not!! We're not even close to left, we're barely even close to the middle




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There has been work by the government...to address the fact that so many m.ps went to private schools but I feel why not get rid of them....??
    what are m.ps?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Its all about the parent not the child....wealthy parents vs non wealthy parents.
    It's like that for everything. "My kid is better than your kid" is never going away. Not even if you destroy private schools.
    Are you from the states or the U.K? Which left are you Comparing? Nhs, Free education for all is what we have in the U.K and is quite socialist not capitalist...Sadly we are becoming more to capitalist, but we are not Americas capitalism....Yet!!! M.ps are members of parliament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's just demographics, too poor to move means you're too poor to go to private school.
    Not with a scholarship. Again, case in point - Uneal. He was dirt poor, and if his only option was public school he'd have no choice. But since there was a private school that provided him with a scholarship, he had the opportunity to get a better education. Why deny poor people better educations?
    Well then get a scholarship... I'm not for destroying Private schools

    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    If your talking school boundaries there are always ways around that. such as after school Babysitter lives in that area that you want, but you would be responsible for getting your child there cause the bus doesn't run into your boundary
    Ah, so now you're advocating fraud? (It's based on your home address, not where the bus picks them up)
    Not at all. you can find child care in the boundary that you want. This is what my parents did to get me out of the school I was at. You go to the district and tell them that child care that you use is within another boundary and creates a hardship for your family. you supply them with the care provider's address and your granted the new school. Nothing fraudulent about that.
    I'm for absolutely destroying them and the toffs they produce....it has nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with money. They bring children up with an arrogance that they carry into society and positions. It is producing a class elite based upon dads money.....It doesn't help the economy having a bunch of twits brought up to believe they are superior via their dads wealth. Its stupid....

    Ah. This is ignorant, chippy prejudice. The private schools that produce these elites are HIGHLY selective. They do not produce idiots. You are right that some can be arrogant and otherwise obnoxious, but don't make the error of thinking they are stupid. It is also true that there are quite a lot of private schools that are not very special intellectually, but these are not the ones (generally) who provide the future leaders. "Toffs" is an obnoxiously prejudiced term, by the way.
    Selective......the smartest of a select few.......like I say......not fair. Money doesn't grow brains...why don't you look up how these super expensive schools teach their pupils...they are taught to feel superior...The best, but only because of their wealth do they get in ( ok selected from the selected so brains has a small something to do with it) but hardly fair to their placements in universities.

    Ok sorry for the word toffs.....Rich and deluded about themselves is a better way to describe some of them. There obviously have been some fantastic minds produce from private education but that's not my point. They could be produced from all sectors of society. Children deserve that chance. Wherever they are from in terms of wealth.

    That's not communist.....its more socialist but only with schools and children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I'm for absolutely destroying them and the toffs they produce....it has nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with money.
    They still have to meet some sort of educational standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    They bring children up with an arrogance that they carry into society and positions. It is producing a class elite based upon dads money.....
    You seem to be under the impression that schools raise children. They do not. You can find this behavior in students at public schools as well. If parents want to throw money away to keep their child from mingling with the masses then let them.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It doesn't help the economy having a bunch of twits brought up to believe they are superior via their dads wealth. Its stupid....
    that is not the doing of the school but the parenting style and the child's environment.
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    There's quite a fair bit of appeal to emotion going on here, not to mention other fallacies.

    Jonio, I have a question for you if you don't mind answering. Say I have the means and manpower to establish an enterprise that caters to a niche group of people (be they wealthy, gifted, talented, improvised, etc), am I to be forbidden to establish such an enterprise?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    .

    If money is the reason schools compete ( or why teachers compete ) , then apply bonuses to teachers, there are many ways to compete.
    How do you determine who gets bonuses?




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Private and state are no better and yet those in the run down areas of the city would not see it that way. Oxbridge would disagree. The political parties would disagree.
    Perception is not reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There has been work by the government ( yes we as a nation are more to the left even if your conservative )
    No we are not!! We're not even close to left, we're barely even close to the middle




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There has been work by the government...to address the fact that so many m.ps went to private schools but I feel why not get rid of them....??
    what are m.ps?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Its all about the parent not the child....wealthy parents vs non wealthy parents.
    It's like that for everything. "My kid is better than your kid" is never going away. Not even if you destroy private schools.
    Are you from the states or the U.K? Which left are you Comparing? Nhs, Free education for all is what we have in the U.K and is quite socialist not capitalist...Sadly we are becoming more to capitalist, but we are not Americas capitalism....Yet!!! M.ps are members of parliament.
    I'm from the U.S.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Money doesn't grow brains...
    nobody but you is saying that it does. If it doesn't "grow brains" then it's hardly an unfair advantage is it? and you just nulled your own argument.



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    why don't you look up how these super expensive schools teach their pupils...they are taught to feel superior...The best, but only because of their wealth do they get in ( ok selected from the selected so brains has a small something to do with it) but hardly fair to their placements in universities.
    It's your claim you provide some evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There obviously have been some fantastic minds produce from private education but that's not my point. They could be produced from all sectors of society.
    Who stated there isn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Children deserve that chance. Wherever they are from in terms of wealth.
    No school is going to change the mindset of "privilege from wealth" whether it's a private school or public
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It seems that my point is being lost.....children are innocent of where they are born and the wealth they inherit. Its pot luck. Private schools creates a class based system that feeds into an unfair advantage for children based on the wealth of their parents. You adults can go on about freedom of choice all you like. You can go on about taxes and who pays them. It is not why I think private schools shouldn't exist. They should not exist because the entire system is unfair to children who have no choice where they are born ( they are innocent ). As a society children should all be brought up as close to the same standards and opportunities as is possible. Private schools create a divide....create unfair advantages based upon wealth. That is not fair to innocent children and I believe not good for the future of us as a species. Unless of course we except that we will not move towards something better than what we have now. All adults should treat all children equally. Your personal wealth should not be able to create advantages for your children over that of others. As adults we should be doing all we can to make a better future for all children. Equally. All children deserve an equal start. All schools should be set to the highest standards achieved for all kids. Not just ones who have wealthy kids. As for the I.q point of earlier posts...why should children who are not as talented get the best positions? Your argument is null and void. You are saying that its not fair on those who have naturally less I.qs if all the best academic places goto those who have higher I.qs....Education should be about finding what is best for the child in question and pushed to help them achieve what is best for them...the private system seems to fail if all the wealthy kids end up in the best universities....whilst smarter less wealthy ones miss out on places....how is that good for us as a whole?

    Why don't people start posting about what's best for children ( our future ) than what's best for Them?
    Not all rich kids end up in the best universities. Yes, some universities may take a higher importance to wealthy families, but this is also not absolute. Private schools are also filled with wealthy and extremely wealthy children. There will always be a divide within communities and within social classes. So to even think or ask for this so called fairness in regards to education is null as well. This will never happen, no matter how much you try to convince others and even if you were able to achieve to rid the world of private schools. Not everyone has an equal start, regardless of the school system, you will have those who are naturally smarter than others, and those who have disabilities that impede their intelligence to develop or expand.
    Of course you have children who have different strengths....Ones who are naturally smarter than others....Schools should be working towards children's strengths....eg....a good scientist may not make a good soldier....Schools should bring out the best skills within children. To suit how they can adapt to society where both will benefit.... Money should have nothing to do with cheating children of their abilities...This goes to my point... Private schools seem to do this... They pay for an advantage... As I say over and over is it right of society to allow money to dictate that?....This is not a capitalist, communist debate....children know nothing of politics....why is this being brought into the debate?... I am writing about what's best for all children as a whole...an unfair system devised around money or one that goes to making it as good and as fair for all children. After school they can go into jobs and buy fast expensive cars and whatever other toys they like in the capitalist world..( I am not a communist, it doesn't work, it goes against human nature and has nothing to do with my point, how ever left it may seem ), This is about what is best for kids as a whole...All of them to benefit society as a Whole....Them, not you adults.... And your ideas of freedom of choice....Private schools may just be bringing kids up that instills the idea that dads money makes them smarter than poorer children..... How Dumb!
    Let me give you a scenario.
    Child is born with learning disability. The child's parent is able to afford private school to teach this child carefully based on their needs. (Yes, I am aware that public school also have this and that in certain states, they will pay for a private school for the child. However, what are the chances that this will be EVERY child with said condition?) The child is able to live and exceed all expectations in regards to leaning and retaining the knowledge learnt, based on the fact they used the privilege they were born with. This child goes on to university and becomes successful. Now, based on YOUR petition, this would not even be remotely possible and the child would have suffered a fate that would have not been "fair". Do you think that this child should be punished equally based on your speculation about wealth and private schools? Even if you were to get rid of private schools, most universities are not public and if they were all to become public, then that will have an impact on society as well. The world moves with wealthy people being wealthy and offering income to those less fortunate to them. Have they not already paid enough taxes to make education affordable and to the most optimum quality possible to other children? You make it seem as public education is of the horrid and worst quality ever, which may or may not be true, but private schools are the same way. You cannot use any basis to make an argument like the one you seem to attempt to be doing. I was able to move forward in my education because of my family's money and I definitely do not feel superior or that I have paid for an advantage. I will not apologise for being born into a family with money to afford an "equal start", because I was technically born retarded and now I have beat all odds because of private schools. I have made my point and you have yet to explain certain arguments clearly. Politics aside, how do private schools create the allusion of paying for an advantage?
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Money doesn't grow brains...
    nobody but you is saying that it does. If it doesn't "grow brains" then it's hardly an unfair advantage is it? and you just nulled your own argument.



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    why don't you look up how these super expensive schools teach their pupils...they are taught to feel superior...The best, but only because of their wealth do they get in ( ok selected from the selected so brains has a small something to do with it) but hardly fair to their placements in universities.
    It's your claim you provide some evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There obviously have been some fantastic minds produce from private education but that's not my point. They could be produced from all sectors of society.
    Who stated there isn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Children deserve that chance. Wherever they are from in terms of wealth.
    No school is going to change the mindset of "privilege from wealth" whether it's a private school or public
    The arguement is they create a class divide that is unfair to children. . If your poor and live in a project, council estate your school is more likely to be under funded and your child will have less opportunities. Your child whatever his/her potential will be far less than someone who pays to have their children in a big posh school.....Money means qualifications....its wrong...it does not produce the best from our nations children and distorts ability with money....it is not fair as these school buy the best teachers, buy the pupils the best start in life. The whole reason behind them is to segregate children because of wealth. The more expensive the more arrogant. The more chance you get into a top university....it is completely selective.

    A level League Tables - Cambridge Qualifying Standard | A level League Tables - Cambridge Qualifying Standard | Gifted Talented & Able Children | The Good Schools Guide

    Independent school (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It is unjust to children who's parents are not wealthy. Its unjust to the overall future of our countries as money not brains are finding their way to the top....

    The practice should be stopped. Whether they will be is not in question here. I want to know why people think they are fair and good. All I have heard is freedom of choice or they are not so good..( which is worse when they make up so much of Parliament) .
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Wealth should not create unfair advantages for childrens education ( although it does ). Education should be a level playing field and the brightest of our countries should have the same chance wherever they are born. Private schools create an unfair system based on wealth. That is not fair to children as they are innocent of wealth.
    You're only looking at "fairness" and not at best outcomes. The better educated the population is, the more it can achieve. The more new technology and scientific breakthroughs and stuff like that.

    Unfair though it may be, if a very rich kid is afforded the best private tutors and consequently learns better management skills than he/she would have through private school - and then goes on to inherit and run the family business better because of it - lots of people will end up having jobs who wouldn't have if that same kid attended public school.

    Society is incompetent enough as it is without going out of our way to make it more incompetent just to level a playing field. (A field which will never be level anyway.)


    What do the most expensive private schools teach their Children? That they are at the best school and are special. It creates a class distinction based unfairly on wealth.
    As for paying for an equally good system....I agree, massive problems....that does not change the fact that private schools are morally and ethically wrong. I hope that it will change oneday. I hope that our nations will move beyond this for the future of our children. That brains beats wealth in the battle of education.

    The elitism of the schools is the problem, then. If kids are being hired out of college on the mere basis of their school, then what is being targeted is not their skill but their connections. The best lawyer firms want the richest clients, and it always helps to hire those peoples' children.

    The problem is graduates of less prestigious colleges who may have equal or greater skill getting passed over by industry.

    Naturally Oxford will have to cater to rich kids or Oxford would not make enough money to afford the best professors. But having the best teacher is no guarantee of a student gaining the best skill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Money doesn't grow brains...
    nobody but you is saying that it does. If it doesn't "grow brains" then it's hardly an unfair advantage is it? and you just nulled your own argument.



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    why don't you look up how these super expensive schools teach their pupils...they are taught to feel superior...The best, but only because of their wealth do they get in ( ok selected from the selected so brains has a small something to do with it) but hardly fair to their placements in universities.
    It's your claim you provide some evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There obviously have been some fantastic minds produce from private education but that's not my point. They could be produced from all sectors of society.
    Who stated there isn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Children deserve that chance. Wherever they are from in terms of wealth.
    No school is going to change the mindset of "privilege from wealth" whether it's a private school or public
    The arguement is they create a class divide that is unfair to children. . If your poor and live in a project, council estate your school is more likely to be under funded and your child will have less opportunities. Your child whatever his/her potential will be far less than someone who pays to have their children in a big posh school.....Money means qualifications....its wrong...it does not produce the best from our nations children and distorts ability with money....it is not fair as these school buy the best teachers, buy the pupils the best start in life. The whole reason behind them is to segregate children because of wealth. The more expensive the more arrogant. The more chance you get into a top university....it is completely selective.

    A level League Tables - Cambridge Qualifying Standard | A level League Tables - Cambridge Qualifying Standard | Gifted Talented & Able Children | The Good Schools Guide

    Independent school (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It is unjust to children who's parents are not wealthy. Its unjust to the overall future of our countries as money not brains are finding their way to the top....

    The practice should be stopped. Whether they will be is not in question here. I want to know why people think they are fair and good. All I have heard is freedom of choice or they are not so good..( which is worse when they make up so much of Parliament) .
    Anything can create a divide that is unfair to children, do you think that getting rid if private schools will help eliminate said divide? There will always exist a class divide, regardless of whether there are private schools or not. If you eliminate private schools, this will simply take place within the public schools and who is to say that the public schools will simply not create an elite team of teachers and instructors for those with money. This will just emphasise and be counterproductive to the children that are experiencing it. As of now, the children do not necessarily know that the wealthier have "an advantage over them". To them they are just going to school, school is school to them. This divide is created by the parents, not where the parents send their children. You cannot blame an edifice or organisation for an issue based on a misconstrued opinion you have.
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    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    The arguement is they create a class divide that is unfair to children. .
    IT's a faulty premise. That divide exists regardless of the school they go to. It is not created by the private school

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    If your poor and live in a project, council estate your school is more likely to be under funded and your child will have less opportunities. Your child whatever his/her potential will be far less than someone who pays to have their children in a big posh school.....Money means qualifications....its wrong...it does not produce the best from our nations children and distorts ability with money....it is not fair as these school buy the best teachers, buy the pupils the best start in life. The whole reason behind them is to segregate children because of wealth. The more expensive the more arrogant. The more chance you get into a top university....it is completely selective.
    All of this is not the fault of the private school, nor was it created by the private school. it actually has nothing to do what-so-ever with the private school. Because it's not forced segregation so nothing is wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It is unjust to children who's parents are not wealthy. Its unjust to the overall future of our countries as money not brains are finding their way to the top....
    again, not the fault of the private schools. Nor is it anyway connected to private schools. You need to take up the public school funding with the government, not point to a private school.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    The practice should be stopped. Whether they will be is not in question here. I want to know why people think they are fair and good. All I have heard is freedom of choice or they are not so good..( which is worse when they make up so much of Parliament) .
    you need to pay better attention then
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  71. #70  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    You are out of your mind.
    (Please don't insult fellow posters. It violates forum rules, and it irritates the moderators and administrators. )

    The solution to school administrators with god complexes is to re-train or fire them, and not to make teachers bulletproof because of seniority alone. Otherwise schools would continue to have administrators with god complexes (ie, original problem not solved) and it would allow some tenured teachers to become lazy and ineffective (ie, new problem created). Teaching is far from the only solution to eliminate boredom. We once had a substitute teacher who did magic tricks, seriously, and no one was bored — but we also didn't learn anything.

    what you are talking about is illegal, it is called "tracking." I am against it.
    I don't know where you live, but American schools have implemented IQ-based tracking for generations, and it's not illegal. Otherwise, low IQ students would sit in classes with high IQ students, and the low IQ students would either consistently fail and be miserable and/or the high IQ students would be bored and miserable. Consider AP, which is based wholly on IQ.

    No, but it certainly isn't the schools job to do so, but just out of curiosity what program is this?
    However, government is government when it comes to public school students, right? Certainly when integration was implemented in the South, it was the US Marshals Service that escorted students to school (see famous Norman Rockwell painting at end of post).

    When the federal government's USDA learned that low-income students were malnourished during summer vacation, it implemented the Summer Food Service Program.

    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Money doesn't grow brains...
    nobody but you is saying that it does. If it doesn't "grow brains" then it's hardly an unfair advantage is it? and you just nulled your own argument.



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    why don't you look up how these super expensive schools teach their pupils...they are taught to feel superior...The best, but only because of their wealth do they get in ( ok selected from the selected so brains has a small something to do with it) but hardly fair to their placements in universities.
    It's your claim you provide some evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There obviously have been some fantastic minds produce from private education but that's not my point. They could be produced from all sectors of society.
    Who stated there isn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Children deserve that chance. Wherever they are from in terms of wealth.
    No school is going to change the mindset of "privilege from wealth" whether it's a private school or public
    The arguement is they create a class divide that is unfair to children. . If your poor and live in a project, council estate your school is more likely to be under funded and your child will have less opportunities. Your child whatever his/her potential will be far less than someone who pays to have their children in a big posh school.....Money means qualifications....its wrong...it does not produce the best from our nations children and distorts ability with money....it is not fair as these school buy the best teachers, buy the pupils the best start in life. The whole reason behind them is to segregate children because of wealth. The more expensive the more arrogant. The more chance you get into a top university....it is completely selective.

    A level League Tables - Cambridge Qualifying Standard | A level League Tables - Cambridge Qualifying Standard | Gifted Talented & Able Children | The Good Schools Guide

    Independent school (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It is unjust to children who's parents are not wealthy. Its unjust to the overall future of our countries as money not brains are finding their way to the top....

    The practice should be stopped. Whether they will be is not in question here. I want to know why people think they are fair and good. All I have heard is freedom of choice or they are not so good..( which is worse when they make up so much of Parliament) .
    Anything can create a divide that is unfair to children, do you think that getting rid if private schools will help eliminate said divide? There will always exist a class divide, regardless of whether there are private schools or not. If you eliminate private schools, this will simply take place within the public schools and who is to say that the public schools will simply not create an elite team of teachers and instructors for those with money. This will just emphasise and be counterproductive to the children that are experiencing it. As of now, the children do not necessarily know that the wealthier have "an advantage over them". To them they are just going to school, school is school to them. This divide is created by the parents, not where the parents send their children. You cannot blame an edifice or organisation for an issue based on a misconstrued opinion you have.
    I am not blaming organizations, I am blaming the entire system of private schooling. The idea behind it. The idea that money seems to provide better education for children and better placements for children on their parents wealth. Denying innocent children of the fair right to an equal chance in life. There is nothing miscontrued about it. Your argument seems to be that that's the way of humans and if you provide children with equal funding, equal educational opportunities that they will create their own class divides. No adults will. The children will just go to school. It is a lie to say private schools do not instill an importance to the fact they are private and better than state schools. That's why parents pay for children to go to private school. The more you pay the better the school and the better chance your child will have. The more parents show off that their children go to a big posh school. This maybe ok for those who's parents can pay but not for those who's parents can't. it is totally unfair on all children. It doesn't provide the best for children overall, it doesn't bring the best to the top. It just creates children who's position in life has been bought. There is lots of evidence in what i say..far more than what you say.

    I would like to add that I don't hate people who have had an advantageous life....I have...I am very lucky because of my parents wealth, providing for me whilst I was growing up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Have they not already paid enough taxes to make education affordable and to the most optimum quality possible to other children?
    because the schools are underfunded that answer is, no.


    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    You make it seem as public education is of the horrid and worst quality ever, which may or may not be true, but private schools are the same way.
    He doesn't understand this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Have they not already paid enough taxes to make education affordable and to the most optimum quality possible to other children?
    because the schools are underfunded that answer is, no.


    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    You make it seem as public education is of the horrid and worst quality ever, which may or may not be true, but private schools are the same way.
    He doesn't understand this.
    Do you mean me when you say he doesn't understand This?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Money doesn't grow brains...
    nobody but you is saying that it does. If it doesn't "grow brains" then it's hardly an unfair advantage is it? and you just nulled your own argument.



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    why don't you look up how these super expensive schools teach their pupils...they are taught to feel superior...The best, but only because of their wealth do they get in ( ok selected from the selected so brains has a small something to do with it) but hardly fair to their placements in universities.
    It's your claim you provide some evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    There obviously have been some fantastic minds produce from private education but that's not my point. They could be produced from all sectors of society.
    Who stated there isn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Children deserve that chance. Wherever they are from in terms of wealth.
    No school is going to change the mindset of "privilege from wealth" whether it's a private school or public
    The arguement is they create a class divide that is unfair to children. . If your poor and live in a project, council estate your school is more likely to be under funded and your child will have less opportunities. Your child whatever his/her potential will be far less than someone who pays to have their children in a big posh school.....Money means qualifications....its wrong...it does not produce the best from our nations children and distorts ability with money....it is not fair as these school buy the best teachers, buy the pupils the best start in life. The whole reason behind them is to segregate children because of wealth. The more expensive the more arrogant. The more chance you get into a top university....it is completely selective.

    A level League Tables - Cambridge Qualifying Standard | A level League Tables - Cambridge Qualifying Standard | Gifted Talented & Able Children | The Good Schools Guide

    Independent school (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It is unjust to children who's parents are not wealthy. Its unjust to the overall future of our countries as money not brains are finding their way to the top....

    The practice should be stopped. Whether they will be is not in question here. I want to know why people think they are fair and good. All I have heard is freedom of choice or they are not so good..( which is worse when they make up so much of Parliament) .
    Anything can create a divide that is unfair to children, do you think that getting rid if private schools will help eliminate said divide? There will always exist a class divide, regardless of whether there are private schools or not. If you eliminate private schools, this will simply take place within the public schools and who is to say that the public schools will simply not create an elite team of teachers and instructors for those with money. This will just emphasise and be counterproductive to the children that are experiencing it. As of now, the children do not necessarily know that the wealthier have "an advantage over them". To them they are just going to school, school is school to them. This divide is created by the parents, not where the parents send their children. You cannot blame an edifice or organisation for an issue based on a misconstrued opinion you have.
    I am not blaming organizations, I am blaming the entire system of private schooling. The idea behind it. The idea that money seems to provide better education for children and better placements for children on their parents wealth. Denying innocent children of the fair right to an equal chance in life. There is nothing miscontrued about it. Your argument seems to be that that's the way of humans and if you provide children with equal funding, equal educational opportunities that they will create their own class divides. No adults will. The children will just go to school. It is a lie to say private schools do not instill an importance to the fact they are private and better than state schools. That's why parents pay for children to go to private school. The more you pay the better the school and the better chance your child will have. The more parents show off that their children go to a big posh school. This maybe ok for those who's parents can pay but not for those who's parents can't. it is totally unfair on all children. It doesn't provide the best for children overall, it doesn't bring the best to the top. It just creates children who's position in life has been bought. There is lots of evidence in what i say..far more than what you say.

    I would like to add that I don't hate people who have had an advantageous life....I have...I am very lucky because of my parents wealth, providing for me whilst I was growing up.
    You are blaming an organisation, the organisation that is public schools. Fine, then do not blame any systems.I just said that the parents are the ones to create that, I never said the children will, although they will. This is why schools have cliques, in university these cliques are sororities and they help climb up the ladder as well. Your statements are not absolute truth though, fine, maybe the private school you attended was that way, but not EVERY private school is that way. In any case, at the end of the day, as you have stated, the ones to create this are the adults, regardless of whether they are private schools or public schools. I am sure that this "unfairness" to children occurs within public schools as well. I do not see any reasoning behind your argument that positions have been bought. Name 10 public figures whose wealth has bought their position.

    What basis are you forming to say that private schools are the ones that create this so called idea. In any case, it is not the school itself, but the parents who are making such claims. Do not blame private schools as a whole for some of its members. I know for some children who go to certain private schools is due to religion, not wealth. Why include these schools into an unfunded idea?
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Have they not already paid enough taxes to make education affordable and to the most optimum quality possible to other children?
    because the schools are underfunded that answer is, no.


    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    You make it seem as public education is of the horrid and worst quality ever, which may or may not be true, but private schools are the same way.
    He doesn't understand this.
    I am beginning to see this, however what I do not see, is the reasoning behind his logic.
    avec amour,
    RM
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  77. #76  
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    The education system is an institutional relic corrupted by the monetary system.


    All the information and education material should be free and available to all online. Schools should be participative and students should participate in the creation of material, elements and create art that can be used by other schools and students. If parents/teachers/pedagogic-graduates elaborate a presentation/video/interactive-experience that is easy and helpful for student to learn, it would be accessible and improved upon like open source projects.
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  78. #77  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Well then get a scholarship... I'm not for destroying Private schools
    Agreed, good solution.
    Not at all. you can find child care in the boundary that you want. This is what my parents did to get me out of the school I was at. You go to the district and tell them that child care that you use is within another boundary and creates a hardship for your family. you supply them with the care provider's address and your granted the new school. Nothing fraudulent about that.
    As long as you go that route, agreed. However, a lot of people where I grew up (NY) would rent a room in another (better) school district, never live there, and claim that was their address so their kid could go to that school - and that _is_ fraud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I'm for absolutely destroying them and the toffs they produce....it has nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with money. They bring children up with an arrogance that they carry into society and positions. It is producing a class elite based upon dads money.....It doesn't help the economy having a bunch of twits brought up to believe they are superior via their dads wealth. Its stupid....
    Ah. Sounds like you just hate people with money, not private schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I'm for absolutely destroying them and the toffs they produce....it has nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with money. They bring children up with an arrogance that they carry into society and positions. It is producing a class elite based upon dads money.....It doesn't help the economy having a bunch of twits brought up to believe they are superior via their dads wealth. Its stupid....
    Ah. Sounds like you just hate people with money, not private schools.
    Despite his claim not to. Read the latter of post 71.
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  81. #80  
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    [QUOTE=jonio;561394]

    There is nothing miscontrued about it. Your argument seems to be that that's the way of humans and if you provide children with equal funding, equal educational opportunities that they will create their own class divides. No adults will. The children will just go to school.
    My argument is that society is already incompetent enough. Why force bad education on students who could have gotten good education? (Or mediocre education on children who could have had excellent education.)

    It shows a lack of value for education itself to be trying to reduce access to it. You know fell well that you can't level the playing field upward very far. You can only level it downward.


    It is a lie to say private schools do not instill an importance to the fact they are private and better than state schools. That's why parents pay for children to go to private school.
    Hold on there.

    In my teenage years I could have benefited quite a lot from attending a private school that focused on children with high functioning autism. And the irony is my parents actually did have the money to send me to one. It just didn't occur to anyone to do it.

    But it's not just for autism. Often times, parents will choose to send an exceptionally smart kid to a private school out of fear that the other kids will pick on them in public school. It happens more than anyone wants to admit. Private schools tend to have more teachers per child, and that makes it easier to supervise so they don't get picked on.

    The more you pay the better the school and the better chance your child will have. The more parents show off that their children go to a big posh school. This maybe ok for those who's parents can pay but not for those who's parents can't. it is totally unfair on all children. It doesn't provide the best for children overall, it doesn't bring the best to the top. It just creates children who's position in life has been bought. There is lots of evidence in what i say..far more than what you say.

    I would like to add that I don't hate people who have had an advantageous life....I have...I am very lucky because of my parents wealth, providing for me whilst I was growing up.
    Yeah. Sometimes private school gets used as a "social club" for children of rich people to rub shoulders with other rich kids. It's not about educating them better, just grouping them.

    I can see that objection making sense. The problem is just that you're convoluting the issue by targeting all private schools instead of focusing only on the elitist ones.

    Private schools should be required to have open, merit based, enrollment. The fees should be eligible for public funding and/or scholarships the same as college is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    You are out of your mind.
    (Please don't insult fellow posters. It violates forum rules, and it irritates the moderators and administrators. )
    I wasn't insulting you, I was stating a fact based on what you wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    The solution to school administrators with god complexes is to re-train or fire them,
    Good luck with that. especially at that level in the district, the job becomes uber-political and is not about job performance at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    and not to make teachers bulletproof because of seniority alone.
    Teachers are not "bulletproof," they are afforded due process, If admin wants to fire a tenured teacher they may do so, but it will not be on a whim and the administrator HAS to show just cause. Any Admin that complains that you can't fire a tenured teacher is lazy, pure and simple. If they are doing their job correctly, and doing follow ups and documenting, then there really isn't a problem with removing a tenured teacher. But those that want to scream loudest about tenure are generally misinformed or they are Admin that wanted to get rid of a teacher for personal/hasty reasons. Thankfully they are not allowed to do so.

    I've worked for both public and charter schools. the charter schools are by far the worst for education. there is no union, there is no contract, they are "At will employees." because there are no protections the admin plays favorites with the staff. they do not follow a salary scale, they can fire teachers at any time for any reason. the climate is horrible, there is no stability for the students, and the stress levels are ridiculous for teachers because you don't know if you will be fired for whatever at any time. Therefore the pressure to inflate grades and misreport test scores becomes huge because you don't want to be in Admin's radar.

    Boiled down it becomes not about teaching but trying to curry favor with admin. Whereas when you don't have to kiss the boss's ass you can focus on doing your job.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Otherwise schools would continue to have administrators with god complexes (ie, original problem not solved) and it would allow some tenured teachers to become lazy and ineffective (ie, new problem created).
    Schools will always have admin with God complexes. Removing Tenure places too much power in the hands of the one individual. Tenure forces the Admin and the staff to work together.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Teaching is far from the only solution to eliminate boredom. We once had a substitute teacher who did magic tricks, seriously, and no one was bored — but we also didn't learn anything.
    Substitute. not "teacher." A teacher is not getting away with that day in and day out. Not only that, with all of the tests and schooling we have to go through to teach, no teacher is doing that (Obviously some will, but the examples are few and far between. Although, I will give you, it seems like more because our "liberal media" always runs those conservative stories in an effort to promote a conservative agenda. Weird coming from the "liberal media" isn't it?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    what you are talking about is illegal, it is called "tracking." I am against it.
    I don't know where you live, but American schools have implemented IQ-based tracking for generations, and it's not illegal. Otherwise, low IQ students would sit in classes with high IQ students, and the low IQ students would either consistently fail and be miserable and/or the high IQ students would be bored and miserable. Consider AP, which is based wholly on IQ.
    I live in America as well (Ca.). And tracking students for anything (Specifically on IQ) is quite illegal. as a matter of fact Ca isn't even allowed to administer IQ tests on African Americans. I don't even know outside of Special Education who even conducts IQ test anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    No, but it certainly isn't the schools job to do so, but just out of curiosity what program is this?
    However, government is government when it comes to public school students, right? Certainly when integration was implemented in the South, it was the US Marshals Service that escorted students to school (see famous Norman Rockwell painting at end of post).
    ??? I don't understand what you're getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    When the federal government's USDA learned that low-income students were malnourished during summer vacation, it implemented the Summer Food Service Program.
    and so they used schools as a way distribute food... great. After all it is the government's job to provide for the common welfare of it's citizens, surely it can't have an entire subgroup of starving people. Otherwise, the Government would be delinquent in it's role. Schools are funded through the state BTW.

    It's be nice if my state participated in that. We don't have that program in Ca. at least not in the county Where I'm at. The schools can barely afford to keep the doors open for summer school let alone start giving out food.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Have they not already paid enough taxes to make education affordable and to the most optimum quality possible to other children?
    because the schools are underfunded that answer is, no.


    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    You make it seem as public education is of the horrid and worst quality ever, which may or may not be true, but private schools are the same way.
    He doesn't understand this.
    Do you mean me when you say he doesn't understand This?
    Yes
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    Privately educated MPs, actors and sports stars dominate society, says Gove - Telegraph

    Increase in number of MPs from private schools - Education News - Education - The Independent

    General Election 2010: MPs more 'socially exclusive' - Telegraph

    There is so much proof of private education getting a huge advantage in politics, business, media all because daddy can afford to send their kids to a posh private school its unreal.....name ten well known people did one of you write? How about hundreds. Its also getting worse. It is nonsense to say its fair on children who have no choice who their parents are or how much wealth they are born into.....the only defence anyone has wrote on this subject for private schools is that it is a parents right to choose which school their child goes to...I say what about a child's Choice? Its all about money, not about natural ability ( apart from those selected from the selected few).
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    I am sure that this "unfairness" to children occurs within public schools as well.
    Let me assure you there is a Class/Caste system within public schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Privately educated MPs, actors and sports stars dominate society, says Gove - Telegraph

    Increase in number of MPs from private schools - Education News - Education - The Independent

    General Election 2010: MPs more 'socially exclusive' - Telegraph

    There is so much proof of private education getting a huge advantage in politics, business, media all because daddy can afford to send their kids to a posh private school its unreal.....name ten well known people did one of you write? How about hundreds. Its also getting worse. It is nonsense to say its fair on children who have no choice who their parents are or how much wealth they are born into.....the only defence anyone has wrote on this subject for private schools is that it is a parents right to choose which school their child goes to...I say what about a child's Choice? Its all about money, not about natural ability ( apart from those selected from the selected few).
    Did you ever complain or want to go to public school when you were younger? For you to base your argument on the child's choice IS null and void. School is school to a child, I can see it already:
    "Do you want to go to public or private school?"
    "What?!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    All the information and education material should be free and available to all online. Schools should be participative and students should participate in the creation of material, elements and create art that can be used by other schools and students. If parents/teachers/pedagogic-graduates elaborate a presentation/video/interactive-experience that is easy and helpful for student to learn, it would be accessible and improved upon like open source projects.
    Absolutely not! that was the model for the charter I worked at, "independent study." and what you described is exactly what they do. Everything was online (including the answers) and man were those kids underdeveloped academically! It does not work. Taking the students out of an academic environment and then leaving the choice to learn or not directly up to the student is a bad decision. at least at school, they may accidentally learn something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I'm for absolutely destroying them and the toffs they produce....it has nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with money. They bring children up with an arrogance that they carry into society and positions. It is producing a class elite based upon dads money.....It doesn't help the economy having a bunch of twits brought up to believe they are superior via their dads wealth. Its stupid....
    Ah. Sounds like you just hate people with money, not private schools.
    I'm guilty of this. where some people are racist, I'm wealthist! Some people hear "black people" and think, "Ooh scary I hope they don't live next to me, or date one of my kids." I hear, "wealthy/rich" and think "greedy bastards that help no one but themselves at the expense of everyone else." I know it's wrong but I'm working on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Private schools should be required to have open, merit based, enrollment.
    "Merit" gives you the +1 one right there! I will give Jonio credit in this over all sense... It seems like merit today constantly takes a back seat to wealth but I don't see Private schools aiding in that process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I'm for absolutely destroying them and the toffs they produce....it has nothing to do with intelligence and all to do with money. They bring children up with an arrogance that they carry into society and positions. It is producing a class elite based upon dads money.....It doesn't help the economy having a bunch of twits brought up to believe they are superior via their dads wealth. Its stupid....
    Ah. Sounds like you just hate people with money, not private schools.
    I'm guilty of this. where some people are racist, I'm wealthist! Some people hear "black people" and think, "Ooh scary I hope they don't live next to me, or date one of my kids." I hear, "wealthy/rich" and think "greedy bastards that help no one but themselves at the expense of everyone else." I know it's wrong but I'm working on it.
    Laugh out loud. Too cute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    It seems like merit today constantly takes a back seat to wealth but I don't see Private schools aiding in that process.
    Hmm, not to my experience. The college I went to for undergrad was expensive, but there was zero - nada - no way to get into it without good test scores, recommendations and grades. High school was similar, although since it was less competitive the standards were lower.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I'm guilty of this. where some people are racist, I'm wealthist! Some people hear "black people" and think, "Ooh scary I hope they don't live next to me, or date one of my kids." I hear, "wealthy/rich" and think "greedy bastards that help no one but themselves at the expense of everyone else." I know it's wrong but I'm working on it.
    I think there's a big difference between having a reaction to someone who is rich and treating them differently. I was afraid of black people for a while after I was mugged in Times Square before New Year's Eve in the 80's - but I tried not to let that influence how I treated people of different races.

    (Personally after working with a guy who is worth about two billion, I'd find it hard to think of the rich as greedy bastards. Super nice guy, and has given away more money than he's kept. Which is why he is worth 'only' two billion.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Private schools should be required to have open, merit based, enrollment.
    "Merit" gives you the +1 one right there! I will give Jonio credit in this over all sense... It seems like merit today constantly takes a back seat to wealth but I don't see Private schools aiding in that process.
    That is because they do not and some people do not seem to see this. The whole concept presented here is like blaming public schools for miseducated or undereducated people. The school system itself does not contribute more than what society will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    It seems like merit today constantly takes a back seat to wealth but I don't see Private schools aiding in that process.
    Hmm, not to my experience. The college I went to for undergrad was expensive, but there was zero - nada - no way to get into it without good test scores, recommendations and grades. High school was similar, although since it was less competitive the standards were lower.
    No no, You're right when it comes to school. I was just talking in over all society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Privately educated MPs, actors and sports stars dominate society, says Gove - Telegraph

    Increase in number of MPs from private schools - Education News - Education - The Independent

    General Election 2010: MPs more 'socially exclusive' - Telegraph

    There is so much proof of private education getting a huge advantage in politics, business, media all because daddy can afford to send their kids to a posh private school its unreal.....name ten well known people did one of you write? How about hundreds. Its also getting worse. It is nonsense to say its fair on children who have no choice who their parents are or how much wealth they are born into.....the only defence anyone has wrote on this subject for private schools is that it is a parents right to choose which school their child goes to...I say what about a child's Choice? Its all about money, not about natural ability ( apart from those selected from the selected few).
    Did you ever complain or want to go to public school when you were younger? For you to base your argument on the child's choice IS null and void. School is school to a child, I can see it already:
    "Do you want to go to public or private school?"
    "What?!"
    What's your Point? That I am Bitter? I went to a grammar school...it was free but in a wealthy area of the country and received more funding than other schools in my area. I am from a reasonably privileged background and have benefited from it. This is not about me. It is about what is fair for children and how we get the best from ALL of our children's abilities. Money doesn't mean brains. Although it seems to me that private schools sell just that. I guess your wealthy or maybe privately educated....or send your kids to a posh school....and dont like it when someone questions that having money has nothing to do with how intelligent you are...not if daddy gave you it, its a mirage to say someone who went to Eton is naturally more intelligent than someone from an inner city school. They never have an equal opportunity to begin with. For the child their chances are dictated to by money. Money doesn't buy natural ability...it only buys an unfair advantage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Privately educated MPs, actors and sports stars dominate society, says Gove - Telegraph

    Increase in number of MPs from private schools - Education News - Education - The Independent

    General Election 2010: MPs more 'socially exclusive' - Telegraph

    There is so much proof of private education getting a huge advantage in politics, business, media all because daddy can afford to send their kids to a posh private school its unreal.....name ten well known people did one of you write? How about hundreds. Its also getting worse. It is nonsense to say its fair on children who have no choice who their parents are or how much wealth they are born into.....the only defence anyone has wrote on this subject for private schools is that it is a parents right to choose which school their child goes to...I say what about a child's Choice? Its all about money, not about natural ability ( apart from those selected from the selected few).
    Did you ever complain or want to go to public school when you were younger? For you to base your argument on the child's choice IS null and void. School is school to a child, I can see it already:
    "Do you want to go to public or private school?"
    "What?!"
    What's your Point? That I am Bitter? I went to a grammar school...it was free but in a wealthy area of the country and received more funding than other schools in my area. I am from a reasonably privileged background and have benefited from it. This is not about me. It is about what is fair for children and how we get the best from ALL of our children's abilities. Money doesn't mean brains. Although it seems to me that private schools sell just that. I guess your wealthy or maybe privately educated....or send your kids to a posh school....and dont like it when someone questions that having money has nothing to do with how intelligent you are...not if daddy gave you it, its a mirage to say someone who went to Eton is naturally more intelligent than someone from an inner city school. They never have an equal opportunity to begin with. For the child their chances are dictated to by money. Money doesn't buy natural ability...it only buys an unfair advantage.
    Do you think private schools get more funding from the government than public schools? Here in America Private schools are exactly that, private. They get NO government funding. if a private school is wealthy it is because they charge a high tuition and rich people pay it. Private schools are completely self sustaining. The government gives no money to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    What's your Point? That I am Bitter? I went to a grammar school...it was free but in a wealthy area of the country and received more funding than other schools in my area. I am from a reasonably privileged background and have benefited from it.
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)
    They never have an equal opportunity to begin with. For the child their chances are dictated to by money. Money doesn't buy natural ability...it only buys an unfair advantage.
    As in your case. How can that be made "fairer?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Privately educated MPs, actors and sports stars dominate society, says Gove - Telegraph

    Increase in number of MPs from private schools - Education News - Education - The Independent

    General Election 2010: MPs more 'socially exclusive' - Telegraph

    There is so much proof of private education getting a huge advantage in politics, business, media all because daddy can afford to send their kids to a posh private school its unreal.....name ten well known people did one of you write? How about hundreds. Its also getting worse. It is nonsense to say its fair on children who have no choice who their parents are or how much wealth they are born into.....the only defence anyone has wrote on this subject for private schools is that it is a parents right to choose which school their child goes to...I say what about a child's Choice? Its all about money, not about natural ability ( apart from those selected from the selected few).
    Did you ever complain or want to go to public school when you were younger? For you to base your argument on the child's choice IS null and void. School is school to a child, I can see it already:
    "Do you want to go to public or private school?"
    "What?!"
    What's your Point? That I am Bitter? I went to a grammar school...it was free but in a wealthy area of the country and received more funding than other schools in my area. I am from a reasonably privileged background and have benefited from it. This is not about me. It is about what is fair for children and how we get the best from ALL of our children's abilities. Money doesn't mean brains. Although it seems to me that private schools sell just that. I guess your wealthy or maybe privately educated....or send your kids to a posh school....and dont like it when someone questions that having money has nothing to do with how intelligent you are...not if daddy gave you it, its a mirage to say someone who went to Eton is naturally more intelligent than someone from an inner city school. They never have an equal opportunity to begin with. For the child their chances are dictated to by money. Money doesn't buy natural ability...it only buys an unfair advantage.
    I do not know, are you bitter?
    That is not my point, my point is what are you using as a basis for fairness? You have not answered my question with logic, but rather personal opinions, which is okay, however do not try to enforce these onto others. I know I have expressed personal opinions and have stated as so, however I simply cannot see the logic here about wanting to rid the world of private schools based on what seems like stereotypes. I do resent stereotypes, which is based on a personal level.
    So let me ask again.
    What is the unfair advantage that private schools provide EXCLUSIVELY?
    So far, the advantages you have mentioned or pointed out are not because of schools, but society as a whole.

    Yes, when I have children I WILL use my wealth to send them to the same "posh" school I went. I have no shame of this. I feel no discomfort nor feel questioned about what my parents did for me using their wealth.
    avec amour,
    RM
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    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)


    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools. Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ). Not which private school you came from. The class system should be taken out of schools. Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability. It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict. How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start? If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard. It is the one area of society that should be equal. That and health care for children. They are our future and all of them should be treated as such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)


    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools. Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ). Not which private school you came from. The class system should be taken out of schools. Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability. It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict. How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start? If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard. It is the one area of society that should be equal. That and health care for children. They are our future and all of them should be treated as such.
    Is this for me?
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    RM
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    Jonio, if you have the time, I would like an answer to my question from post #62.
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