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  1. #201  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post


    Its not a problem with my perspective. It seems like a problem with Americans perspective. I get post calling me dumb because I point out that I think it is unhealthy for children to be brought up in schooling systems that group them together based on their parents wealth. I point out that Finlands schooling system is mostly free of private schools ( apart from some religious schools ) and their kids are smarter in almost all subjects on average than Americans.

    What type of person doesn't see that grouping children in schools based on wealth doesn't segregate them? Are they Smart? Yes banning private schools may be a pipe dream...In America...Not in Finland...( although they haven't done it for religious schools ).
    I went ahead and researched that, to see if you were telling the truth.

    Education in Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It seems it's true. Private schools are only allowed in Finland if they don't charge tuition of any kind. They have to support themselves off the same funding as public schools.

    On the other hand, the Wiki article also mentions that they are able to keep the class size in Finland's public schools to within 20 students per teacher. I don't think American public schools are comparable with that, although I am not sure.




    Lets just agree to dis-agree....this thread has run its course and is going round in circles. How many of those who call me dumb ( lol ) send their kids to private school I Wonder? Also its not about infinite funding....its about teaching methods, the way our school system works....we could actually save money and get more from our kids if schools were managed better in the first place. Saving us billions on crime, jobs and so on, in the schools America forgets. I feel the goal of any education system in the end should be to ban private schools. However long it takes to get there.
    I think you may have managed to revive this discussion with the reference to Finland. It would be helpful if you could add some further insight into it.

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    I always ponder the history that is taught in schools. I mean referring to a topic I mentioned in another post about the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.

    History seems to often dictate that Hitler was the biggest B***ard on earth. Why does the subject remain so ingrained in mainstream whilst others dont?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    I always ponder the history that is taught in schools. I mean referring to a topic I mentioned in another post about the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.

    History seems to often dictate that Hitler was the biggest B***ard on earth. Why does the subject remain so ingrained in mainstream whilst others dont?
    Cause it is proven and true!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    I always ponder the history that is taught in schools. I mean referring to a topic I mentioned in another post about the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.

    History seems to often dictate that Hitler was the biggest B***ard on earth. Why does the subject remain so ingrained in mainstream whilst others dont?
    Cause it is proven and true!
    Really?

    There will always be those who disagree.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_death_toll
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    disagreement doesn't disprove proven fact. *S*
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    disagreement doesn't disprove proven fact. *S*
    Why is there disagreement? No smoke without fire? possibly?

    Oh, no, we just all have to accept that everything is as it seems and just shut up and carry on!

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    If all students that attend school could become computer literate then everyone of them could take online courses at their home and get the same education equally. They could take other courses that they enjoy more as well when they finish their main courses so that they could excel if they want. Home schooling saves time and money plus cuts the amount of teachers needed to educate students. Brick and mortar buildings wouldn't be needed as much except for those needing more help with their school work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If all students that attend school could become computer literate then everyone of them could take online courses at their home and get the same education equally. They could take other courses that they enjoy more as well when they finish their main courses so that they could excel if they want. Home schooling saves time and money plus cuts the amount of teachers needed to educate students. Brick and mortar buildings wouldn't be needed as much except for those needing more help with their school work.
    What a silly idea. Do you have any idea of the dropout rate of web-based university courses? What degree of attendance do you think would be achieved, if we had kids under 10 dependent on the web to be educated?
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    They would be paid to do their classwork.
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    With technology becoming more and more advanced in terms of allowing an entire classroom to interact in a meaningful way, I like the idea of online classes. However, many classes have practical or lab-based requirements that would still require "brick and mortar" facilities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    nonsense!
    I get a strong undercurrent of class jealousy from Jonio; that may be informing his opinions on the topic. (i.e. "I don't like class divisions and I think that private schools cause them, so let's eliminate them.") Noble sentiment, just aimed at the wrong problem.

    I notice this often in poor/middle class people who want to destroy the rich so they feel better about their lot in life. They often express this as "I just want fewer class divisions" because that's a much more supportable goal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    nonsense!
    I get a strong undercurrent of class jealousy from Jonio; that may be informing his opinions on the topic. (i.e. "I don't like class divisions and I think that private schools cause them, so let's eliminate them.") Noble sentiment, just aimed at the wrong problem.

    I notice this often in poor/middle class people who want to destroy the rich so they feel better about their lot in life. They often express this as "I just want fewer class divisions" because that's a much more supportable goal.
    Yes class envy was the basis of an entire system of political thought in the UK back in the 1970s. I remember it well. Thatcher got rid of it but it seems to be creeping back, largely through being whipped up the the British Labour Party, the basis of whose attack on the government is largely built around the schools the main government figures went to. Childish or what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I get a strong undercurrent of class jealousy from Jonio; that may be informing his opinions on the topic. (i.e. "I don't like class divisions and I think that private schools cause them, so let's eliminate them.") Noble sentiment, just aimed at the wrong problem.
    I've sensed that too from the way jonio's posts were written, especially when he does not make up his mind on certain aspects of his story. At times he says the "rich" sends their children to private schools almost as a way to "buy" them entrance into high society, and then flips the story around by saying "In England rich people buy up the houses around the catchment area of the best FREE state schools.", not to mention that even if private educational institutions were abolished, the enrollment behaviour may not pan out the way that (s)he expects it to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post


    Its not a problem with my perspective. It seems like a problem with Americans perspective. I get post calling me dumb because I point out that I think it is unhealthy for children to be brought up in schooling systems that group them together based on their parents wealth. I point out that Finlands schooling system is mostly free of private schools ( apart from some religious schools ) and their kids are smarter in almost all subjects on average than Americans.

    What type of person doesn't see that grouping children in schools based on wealth doesn't segregate them? Are they Smart? Yes banning private schools may be a pipe dream...In America...Not in Finland...( although they haven't done it for religious schools ).
    I went ahead and researched that, to see if you were telling the truth.

    Education in Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It seems it's true. Private schools are only allowed in Finland if they don't charge tuition of any kind. They have to support themselves off the same funding as public schools.

    On the other hand, the Wiki article also mentions that they are able to keep the class size in Finland's public schools to within 20 students per teacher. I don't think American public schools are comparable with that, although I am not sure.




    Lets just agree to dis-agree....this thread has run its course and is going round in circles. How many of those who call me dumb ( lol ) send their kids to private school I Wonder? Also its not about infinite funding....its about teaching methods, the way our school system works....we could actually save money and get more from our kids if schools were managed better in the first place. Saving us billions on crime, jobs and so on, in the schools America forgets. I feel the goal of any education system in the end should be to ban private schools. However long it takes to get there.
    I think you may have managed to revive this discussion with the reference to Finland. It would be helpful if you could add some further insight into it.

    Showing that something has worked in at least one instance is strong evidence that it can work.
    Except that his proposal will increase class sizes. Also, Finland pays teachers a lot more and they all have Masters degrees, and his proposal will significantly cut school budgets so teachers will be paid less. It is funny that further privatizing education would bring us closer to the important aspects of Finland's education system, (better teachers, more money, smaller classes,) whereas his proposal will bring us farther from Finland's education system in every way that matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I get a strong undercurrent of class jealousy from Jonio; that may be informing his opinions on the topic. (i.e. "I don't like class divisions and I think that private schools cause them, so let's eliminate them.") Noble sentiment, just aimed at the wrong problem.
    I've sensed that too from the way jonio's posts were written, especially when he does not make up his mind on certain aspects of his story. At times he says the "rich" sends their children to private schools almost as a way to "buy" them entrance into high society, and then flips the story around by saying "In England rich people buy up the houses around the catchment area of the best FREE state schools.", not to mention that even if private educational institutions were abolished, the enrollment behaviour may not pan out the way that (s)he expects it to.
    The US has the same problem, I say problem because local financing of public schools is based on a 19th century models, still prominent in most States, and probably the leading contributor to large disparities in education per child between wealthy and poor communities. It effects classroom size, quality of teachers (through salaries) attracted to the school, ability to harness local resources (one of Finland's biggest advantages), whether preschool is available (quite important to identify developmental problems as early as possible), conduct educational trips off school grounds, number of support staff such as counselors and special education teachers, age of text books, parent education and assistance, and technology (not all that important compared to what it cost...but still). The net effect is the US have one of the lowest social economic mobilities among developed nations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I say problem because local financing of public schools is based on a 19th century models
    Hmm, were there any notable proposals from both the public and private sectors to revamp the system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The net effect is the US have one of the lowest social economic mobilities among developed nations.
    In Singapore, the primary issue that we are facing in terms of the educational system is that we are churning out more graduates than there are openings for positions. Not to mention the the influx of migrant professionals and workers. From what I can tell, the general sentiment on the ground here is that education is an investment that may or may not see viable returns upon securing employment. There are some highly educated staff within my company alone that often makes me wonder if these folks are "trained" rather than being actually educated. Sigh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I say problem because local financing of public schools is based on a 19th century models
    Hmm, were there any notable proposals from both the public and private sectors to revamp the system?
    It's a mixed bag, large part because education is a State and local responsibility in the US and some has address the problem in unique ways.
    For a dated view of where we came from:


    Educational Leadership:Beyond Instructional Leadership:Unequal School Funding in the United States

    The problem is still quite pronounced in some states, such as Virginia where this article discusses a $6000/child spending difference between poor and wealthier communities.
    http://www.dailyprogress.com/newsvir...a4bcf6878.html

    A partial solution in WA state has been to level and standardize teacher salaries in the public schools across the state. Unfortunately local funding primarily still takes up the support staff and buildings--a middle school I recently did temporary work in had more than 30 students in a science class; it was enough the general direction from administration is don't try to do labs because of inherent lack of supervision with such poor teacher to student ratios (it's not 30 kids...it's 300 fingers to keep track of).
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; May 7th, 2014 at 04:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    nonsense!
    I get a strong undercurrent of class jealousy from Jonio; that may be informing his opinions on the topic. (i.e. "I don't like class divisions and I think that private schools cause them, so let's eliminate them.") Noble sentiment, just aimed at the wrong problem.

    I notice this often in poor/middle class people who want to destroy the rich so they feel better about their lot in life. They often express this as "I just want fewer class divisions" because that's a much more supportable goal.
    Yes class envy was the basis of an entire system of political thought in the UK back in the 1970s. I remember it well. Thatcher got rid of it but it seems to be creeping back, largely through being whipped up the the British Labour Party, the basis of whose attack on the government is largely built around the schools the main government figures went to. Childish or what?

    The lesson to learn from history is that class warfare begets class warfare. If the rich think they are under attack, they'll huddle closer and closer together.

    There is always a backlash. The rich aren't defenseless in this kind of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    I always ponder the history that is taught in schools. I mean referring to a topic I mentioned in another post about the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.

    History seems to often dictate that Hitler was the biggest B***ard on earth. Why does the subject remain so ingrained in mainstream whilst others dont?

    The people who Hitler targeted are the same people who run most of Hollywood. Go figure.

    If Japanese people controlled Hollywood we'd hear all about what a monster FDR was. If German people controlled Hollywood we'd hear all about the horrors of Stalin. I'm sure there's some group out there who thinks Churchill is a monster too, but I haven't read enough about British operations in North Africa and the Middle East during that war to say for sure who would or wouldn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I get post calling me dumb because I point out that I think it is unhealthy for children to be brought up in schooling systems that group them together based on their parents wealth.
    No you get called "dumb" because you are ignoring all of the points that show why your idea is pish. As a matter of fact, you are ignoring all of my posts that are shredding your ideas. Shocking that you are ignoring that which doesn't fit with your agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I point out that Finlands schooling system is mostly free of private schools ( apart from some religious schools ) and their kids are smarter in almost all subjects on average than Americans.
    That argument is specious at best and has been pointed out to you multiple times.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Its most of your points that have nothing in them....just going over the same unfounded points. Nothing about the effects on the children's minds going to posh expensive privileged schools. Nothing about the values it breeds in them. The class distinctions it breeds in them.
    Nothing in them? I'm on a public school campus everyday. Values are bread by parents not schools!!
    You have to be thinking of yourself when you say "unfounded points"



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Some say wealth segregation happens in schools anyway...yes but at least they mix .
    NO they don't, that why it's called "segregation." apparently you have never heard of cliques.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Especially the poor boys with the rich girls. In private posh schools they are kept in a bubble away from the rest of society.
    as well as on a public campus.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Then by all accounts end up in the best positions in life. Its seems in America and the U.k, in our politics. How can they say they speak for all when they are separated from all since Birth???
    THrough their parents stations in life NOT because of private schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Lets just agree to dis-agree....
    No. you lost!admit defeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    this thread has run its course and is going round in circles.
    Only because you keep bringing up your tired talking points again every time someone shoots them down. Just repeating the same crap that you have after somebody has just pointed out as wrong doesn't automatically make it a new and a valid argument again. You have provided nothing new since the start of your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    How many of those who call me dumb ( lol ) send their kids to private school I Wonder?
    MY son will go to Public school when he is old enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Also its not about infinite funding....its about teaching methods, the way our school system works....we could actually save money and get more from our kids if schools were managed better in the first place.
    California has the hardest requirements to become a teacher than any other state (save maybe New York) Si what makes a better teacher? the way they dress? their rapport? pray-tell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post

    On the other hand, the Wiki article also mentions that they are able to keep the class size in Finland's public schools to within 20 students per teacher. I don't think American public schools are comparable with that, although I am not sure.
    It's not. most public schools in America have a teacher pupil ration at 1:36 some districts are 1:40. P.E. is 1:80 most times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Averages don't tell the truth based on District. Small districts bring that average down and distort the actual numbers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If all students that attend school could become computer literate then everyone of them could take online courses at their home and get the same education equally. They could take other courses that they enjoy more as well when they finish their main courses so that they could excel if they want. Home schooling saves time and money plus cuts the amount of teachers needed to educate students. Brick and mortar buildings wouldn't be needed as much except for those needing more help with their school work.
    What a silly idea. Do you have any idea of the dropout rate of web-based university courses? What degree of attendance do you think would be achieved, if we had kids under 10 dependent on the web to be educated?
    Not only that but there is no telling who is taking those tests and courses on the other side of the computer. all to often when I worked at a school that had "online" classes a parent or older sibling would take those "classes/tests" but little johnny would get the credit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If all students that attend school could become computer literate then everyone of them could take online courses at their home and get the same education equally. They could take other courses that they enjoy more as well when they finish their main courses so that they could excel if they want. Home schooling saves time and money plus cuts the amount of teachers needed to educate students. Brick and mortar buildings wouldn't be needed as much except for those needing more help with their school work.
    What a silly idea. Do you have any idea of the dropout rate of web-based university courses? What degree of attendance do you think would be achieved, if we had kids under 10 dependent on the web to be educated?
    We do this with continuing Ed classes for CPA's, Attorney's, Doctors, INsurance Agents. Why would it not work?

    Parents would have to participate and discipline!

    WHICH they should be doing anyhow!
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    our public schools have a ratio of 22 max to a teacher.......when I grew up in a PRIVATE GRADE SCHOOL......our ratio was 55-57 with ONE teacher and no aides....and amazingly we LEARNED........we also learned how to work as a GROUP .....
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If all students that attend school could become computer literate then everyone of them could take online courses at their home and get the same education equally. They could take other courses that they enjoy more as well when they finish their main courses so that they could excel if they want. Home schooling saves time and money plus cuts the amount of teachers needed to educate students. Brick and mortar buildings wouldn't be needed as much except for those needing more help with their school work.
    What a silly idea. Do you have any idea of the dropout rate of web-based university courses? What degree of attendance do you think would be achieved, if we had kids under 10 dependent on the web to be educated?
    We do this with continuing Ed classes for CPA's, Attorney's, Doctors, INsurance Agents. Why would it not work?

    Parents would have to participate and discipline!

    WHICH they should be doing anyhow!
    Because a great part of what teachers do is motivation and a great deal of what kids get from being in class with their mates is motivation too. Most parents simply don't have the time, energy or professionalism to do this. If they go out to work, as most do, it is out of the question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If all students that attend school could become computer literate then everyone of them could take online courses at their home and get the same education equally. They could take other courses that they enjoy more as well when they finish their main courses so that they could excel if they want. Home schooling saves time and money plus cuts the amount of teachers needed to educate students. Brick and mortar buildings wouldn't be needed as much except for those needing more help with their school work.
    What a silly idea. Do you have any idea of the dropout rate of web-based university courses? What degree of attendance do you think would be achieved, if we had kids under 10 dependent on the web to be educated?
    We do this with continuing Ed classes for CPA's, Attorney's, Doctors, INsurance Agents. Why would it not work?

    Parents would have to participate and discipline!

    WHICH they should be doing anyhow!
    Because a great part of what teachers do is motivation and a great deal of what kids get from being in class with their mates is motivation too. Most parents simply don't have the time, energy or professionalism to do this. If they go out to work, as most do, it is out of the question.
    I do agree......the social part is very important also.

    Teacher bonding also.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    our public schools have a ratio of 22 max to a teacher.......when I grew up in a PRIVATE GRADE SCHOOL......our ratio was 55-57 with ONE teacher and no aides....and amazingly we LEARNED........we also learned how to work as a GROUP .....
    Unfortunately there is no longer that parent support. You knew if you didn't learn or when/if the teacher called home on your deviant behavior what was waiting. Now, the teacher calls home and parents project. You're just like that teacher that picked on me and YOU'RE the problem!!! seldom do teachers get any backup from home. The culture has changed. Now everyone is looking for imperfections so they have grounds for a lawsuit and can get rich quick.
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    Also too many people blame their teacher instead of them self when they fail to learn. It's one reason why I find it hard to sympathize with people who want the education system changed. Motivation is something you have to bring to the table yourself.

    However I wouldn't want to give up the ability to affect certain environmental changes by choosing a particular private school. When I was a teenager I was terrified of being singled out by a teacher for praise. I was a high functioning autistic, but that doesn't mean I functioned very well. There were certain social outcomes I simply could not endure.

    I determined that a teacher would never single me out for praise if my homework wasn't done. So I never did anymore homework than the minimum to pass my class, but paid attention so I could get A's on all my tests. It was a crude fix for the situation, but it enabled me to survive. I could still learn and not have to put myself in a social situation I couldn't handle.

    If I attended a private school that specialized in dealing with my situation, I wouldn't have needed to apply that fix. Towards the end, I would even miss questions on tests to which I knew the answers, because I realized that the tests made it obvious I wasn't being forced to get bad grades by ability. It made my parents more angry at me if my test scores were too high without accompanying grades. Kind of a feedback system at that point. I've had some years to think about it and I'm quite sure I couldn't have made any other choice that the one I made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Motivation is something you have to bring to the table yourself.
    Beautifully stated!!!!!

    I love it. What sucks is all of these legislators want to take the student completely out of it and make the teachers wholly responsible for these students that just don't care. There is no more responsibility on the student. as you correctly pointed out they aren't even responsible for motivation anymore.
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    What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic


    I think Americans are forgetting to think out of their box. Sad really. You have the largest economy in the world (by far ) , yet put it all in weapons and bombs to protect you from the outside world. Why don't you stick more of it into your education system collectively. My point has always been about the class divisions it creates within schools. Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools. Its not true to say private doesn't create divisions based on wealth. Especially in the most expensive schools. Your politics is riddled with expensive privately educated kids as is ours. So are your most famous Universities based on percentages to the rest of society. Clearly showing that private pays off. Yet Americans can't get It??? Is it because of the word Socialist....is it that this word is brainwashed into you as the evil that's in this World??? Your wrong and Finland proves it. We don't need private schools. We all need better schools. Banning them will not send us to the gutter. It will ( I believe ) create closer cohesion between the classes. It will give teachers a chance to bring them together.

    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.

    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    Last edited by jonio; May 9th, 2014 at 04:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If all students that attend school could become computer literate then everyone of them could take online courses at their home and get the same education equally. They could take other courses that they enjoy more as well when they finish their main courses so that they could excel if they want. Home schooling saves time and money plus cuts the amount of teachers needed to educate students. Brick and mortar buildings wouldn't be needed as much except for those needing more help with their school work.
    What a silly idea. Do you have any idea of the dropout rate of web-based university courses? What degree of attendance do you think would be achieved, if we had kids under 10 dependent on the web to be educated?
    We do this with continuing Ed classes for CPA's, Attorney's, Doctors, INsurance Agents. Why would it not work?

    Parents would have to participate and discipline!

    WHICH they should be doing anyhow!
    You can't do away with schools. Too many job losses and how can parents work?
    I'm a single parent and I am made to look for work by government or I dont get any money unless I prove I'm looking for work.
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    I'm there for my kid and do everything with no help from anyone. My conscience is clear on that. Some of us know how to do what we are supposed to.I don't have a social life or go out. I'm with them every night. Thats what good dedicated parents do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    our public schools have a ratio of 22 max to a teacher.......when I grew up in a PRIVATE GRADE SCHOOL......our ratio was 55-57 with ONE teacher and no aides....and amazingly we LEARNED........we also learned how to work as a GROUP .....
    Unfortunately there is no longer that parent support. You knew if you didn't learn or when/if the teacher called home on your deviant behavior what was waiting. Now, the teacher calls home and parents project. You're just like that teacher that picked on me and YOU'RE the problem!!! seldom do teachers get any backup from home. The culture has changed. Now everyone is looking for imperfections so they have grounds for a lawsuit and can get rich quick.
    We didn't have parent support.


    MY KIDS had parent support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Motivation is something you have to bring to the table yourself.
    Beautifully stated!!!!!

    I love it. What sucks is all of these legislators want to take the student completely out of it and make the teachers wholly responsible for these students that just don't care. There is no more responsibility on the student. as you correctly pointed out they aren't even responsible for motivation anymore.

    Yes Kojax, well said!

    I agree with both of you.

    I have three close friends who are teachers. I worked in schools. I get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic


    I think Americans are forgetting to think out of their box. Sad really. You have the largest economy in the world (by far ) , yet put it all in weapons and bombs to protect you from the outside world. Why don't you stick more of it into your education system collectively. My point has always been about the class divisions it creates within schools. Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools. Its not true to say private doesn't create divisions based on wealth. Especially in the most expensive schools. Your politics is riddled with expensive privately educated kids as is ours. So are your most famous Universities based on percentages to the rest of society. Clearly showing that private pays off. Yet Americans can't get It??? Is it because of the word Socialist....is it that this word is brainwashed into you as the evil that's in this World??? Your wrong and Finland proves it. We don't need private schools. We all need better schools. Banning them will not send us to the gutter. It will ( I believe ) create closer cohesion between the classes. It will give teachers a chance to bring them together.

    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.

    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    No, people are not accepting your proposal because you are unable to offer any solutions to the problems or address any of the criticisms levied at your position. You keep ignoring the fact that your proposal increases overcrowding and underfunding of schools. I believe you ignore it because you have no response to it.

    My idea of privatizing more schools, ironically, brings the public school system much closer to Finland than yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    our public schools have a ratio of 22 max to a teacher.......when I grew up in a PRIVATE GRADE SCHOOL......our ratio was 55-57 with ONE teacher and no aides....and amazingly we LEARNED........we also learned how to work as a GROUP .....
    Unfortunately there is no longer that parent support. You knew if you didn't learn or when/if the teacher called home on your deviant behavior what was waiting. Now, the teacher calls home and parents project. You're just like that teacher that picked on me and YOU'RE the problem!!! seldom do teachers get any backup from home. The culture has changed. Now everyone is looking for imperfections so they have grounds for a lawsuit and can get rich quick.
    We didn't have parent support.


    MY KIDS had parent support.
    That is good because some kids parents don't give a shit, they hardly spend time in the same room and some kids don't get cuddles. Possibly becoming emo kids.

    Some parents are also too busy doing what they have to do ie:work clean cook etc... I always spend time with mine for chats and mess arounds.

    There's also only so much we can do for them.

    Are your kids all grown up now? I have one who is 18 years and one who is 8 years old (both boys). When they reach teen years it can be difficult. I wanted to move in to the shed for a while.

    Bless him, he had an interview today, and he actually did his own tie today. It's a good job his Mummy picked up some helpful info during her years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic


    I think Americans are forgetting to think out of their box. Sad really. You have the largest economy in the world (by far ) , yet put it all in weapons and bombs to protect you from the outside world. Why don't you stick more of it into your education system collectively. My point has always been about the class divisions it creates within schools. Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools. Its not true to say private doesn't create divisions based on wealth. Especially in the most expensive schools. Your politics is riddled with expensive privately educated kids as is ours. So are your most famous Universities based on percentages to the rest of society. Clearly showing that private pays off. Yet Americans can't get It??? Is it because of the word Socialist....is it that this word is brainwashed into you as the evil that's in this World??? Your wrong and Finland proves it. We don't need private schools. We all need better schools. Banning them will not send us to the gutter. It will ( I believe ) create closer cohesion between the classes. It will give teachers a chance to bring them together.

    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.

    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    No, people are not accepting your proposal because you are unable to offer any solutions to the problems or address any of the criticisms levied at your position. You keep ignoring the fact that your proposal increases overcrowding and underfunding of schools. I believe you ignore it because you have no response to it.

    My idea of privatizing more schools, ironically, brings the public school system much closer to Finland than yours.

    How to pay for It??? Simple in America. Stop spending so much on your MILITARY!!!! Your missile defence budget (being a big waste of money) could be a start.....

    U.S. defense spending compared to other countries | pgpf.org

    Then manage your schools to get the most out of your teachers and students.....Just like Finland.
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  40. #240  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    How to pay for It??? Simple in America. Stop spending so much on your MILITARY!!!! Your missile defence budget (being a big waste of money) could be a start.....

    U.S. defense spending compared to other countries | pgpf.org

    Then manage your schools to get the most out of your teachers and students.....Just like Finland.
    Dont' derail your own thread. Finland spends less per student than the US--the US doesn't have a total education spending problem on average, but a distribution one. You should also know that Defense spending is both required and authorized federal spending, quite different from secondary education which is a State and local responsibility.

    I'll also add that teachers that don't motivate aren't effective teachers--child motivation is something that has to be taught and instilled, not something we teachers throw our hands up about and blame on parents etc.
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  41. #241  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools.
    My family was poor, and I went to a private school. I mixed with people from all over the world - from China, India, Turkey, Australia and South Africa. I never would have met them had I stayed in the public schools in my area.

    Your wrong and Finland proves it.
    Finland has excellent schools and they have private schools. Thus your own example proves that you are mistaken.
    We don't need private schools. We all need better schools.
    We don't need private schools OR public schools; we need better schools. If we can do that by closing all public schools, going all private and using a voucher system, great.
    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.
    By setting private schools on fire. Yes, lots of people would rather destroy than build; fortunately they are in the minority.
    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    So your school created class divisions as well. Good argument against public schools being the solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools.
    My family was poor, and I went to a private school. I mixed with people from all over the world - from China, India, Turkey, Australia and South Africa. I never would have met them had I stayed in the public schools in my area.

    Your wrong and Finland proves it.
    Finland has excellent schools and they have private schools. Thus your own example proves that you are mistaken.
    We don't need private schools. We all need better schools.
    We don't need private schools OR public schools; we need better schools. If we can do that by closing all public schools, going all private and using a voucher system, great.
    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.
    By setting private schools on fire. Yes, lots of people would rather destroy than build; fortunately they are in the minority.
    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    So your school created class divisions as well. Good argument against public schools being the solution.


    Stop with Finland and private schools will you.........Yes religious, but tuition Fees, do people pay???

    What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic

    The funding argument I haven't properly researched in America but everyone (but lynx) seems to think you have less funding per child than Finland in this thread. I feel that it comes down to the way the schools are managed and set up. I feel if there is not enough funding ( in the worlds largest economy ), then you should find it from alternate areas you may not need to invest so heavily in. Ones which in effect may be a drain without the results. I say the American military because apart from Russia, China and the middle east, the rest of us are your allies or we share our common enemies. Yet you spend so much on it and forget your poor disadvantage children (Unless of course you can afford to send them to private Schools). It is the ideology of private Schools I am against. All children of our societies deserve the same rights and funding of education. You can only disagree with me on this. Not anything else. Finland proves beyond doubt you can have a private free ( public funded ) education and be the best.

    If you think I am dumb, thick or talking nonsense ( as people have called me ) for saying this...then fair enough. How rude and stupid of you.

    Billvon, really read back your post and enlighten me with what point that last post had in it....
    Last edited by jonio; May 9th, 2014 at 01:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    everyone (but lynx) seems to think you have less funding per child than Finland in this thread.
    From Greatschools.org:
    "Finland spends only $7,500 per student, considerably less than the United States' average $8,700."
    So if we are to attempt to match Finland we'd have to cut per-student expenditures considerably.

    It is the ideology of private Schools I am against.
    It sounds to me like you oppose the a strawman you have created, a strawman where private schools create and expand class divisions in the US while public schools narrow this gap. That's the mistake you make. Improving education is a laudable goal, but you have to be solving a real problem to make real progress.

    Someone could next come along and propose closing all public schools since crime rates are higher there. "Children deserve to be educated in a crime-free environment," they might say, "and thus closing public schools will help that happen." He would be just as wrong as you would be. Again he would have a laudable goal (less crime in schools) but his solution, like yours, would simply make the problem worse.

    All children of our societies deserve the same rights and funding of education. You can only disagree with me on this. Not anything else.
    I disagree. All children of our societies deserve excellent education, not "the same" level of education. If you can give 100% of the kids out there excellent education then you have succeeded. If you can give 50% of the kids out there excellent education, then you are on the right track. 10%? You have a lot of work to do. 0%? Inexcusable.

    What you are proposing is that giving no one an excellent education would be preferable to giving 50% of kids excellent education. And yes, I disagree with that. "Same" is not a goal for me. "Excellent" is.
    Billvon, really read back your post and enlighten me with what point that last post had in it....
    That we are better off as a society trying to rise to the highest common denominator than to sink to the lowest one.
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  44. #244  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic


    I think Americans are forgetting to think out of their box. Sad really. You have the largest economy in the world (by far ) , yet put it all in weapons and bombs to protect you from the outside world. Why don't you stick more of it into your education system collectively. My point has always been about the class divisions it creates within schools. Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools. Its not true to say private doesn't create divisions based on wealth. Especially in the most expensive schools. Your politics is riddled with expensive privately educated kids as is ours. So are your most famous Universities based on percentages to the rest of society. Clearly showing that private pays off. Yet Americans can't get It??? Is it because of the word Socialist....is it that this word is brainwashed into you as the evil that's in this World??? Your wrong and Finland proves it. We don't need private schools. We all need better schools. Banning them will not send us to the gutter. It will ( I believe ) create closer cohesion between the classes. It will give teachers a chance to bring them together.

    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.

    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    No, people are not accepting your proposal because you are unable to offer any solutions to the problems or address any of the criticisms levied at your position. You keep ignoring the fact that your proposal increases overcrowding and underfunding of schools. I believe you ignore it because you have no response to it.

    My idea of privatizing more schools, ironically, brings the public school system much closer to Finland than yours.

    How to pay for It??? Simple in America. Stop spending so much on your MILITARY!!!! Your missile defence budget (being a big waste of money) could be a start.....

    U.S. defense spending compared to other countries | pgpf.org

    Then manage your schools to get the most out of your teachers and students.....Just like Finland.
    Even if we do that, my proposal objectively creates less crowded schools and better funded schools if school budgets are the same. I can say my proposal gives more funding to. We should compare the merits of our proposals on fair footing so it is the education itself we are looking at. And with 100 percent certainty, an objective, mathematical, undeniable fact, is that your proposal has more crowded and more underfunded public schools than my proposal. If we have the same funding, (any plan you can come up with to give public schools more money I could also incorporate into mine so that is completely irrelevant, we have to assume we have the same funding or we arent even having a discussion,) then you have way more students and the same money. I have the same money to split between far fewer students.

    My public schools are better than yours in both of our proposals. They just are. Having private schools make public schools better. There is still inequality in my props, and you can say that you think equality is more important then quality of education, but that is exactly what you are arguing. My public schools are better, but you care more about equality. You are sacrificing overall education standards for equality. If you would rather have equal but less knowledgeable people, go for your plan.

    As for Finland, it is objective. It is fact. If more students in Finland paid the tuition in private schools, get funding for public schools remain the same, there would be more money per student in public schools in Finland. They just what and you can't argue that.

    what Finland has above the US isn't public schools. It is more funding. They have more money to pay teachers, and more money per kid. They also probably have better education standards and curriculum, but that is nothing to do with the lack of private schools. If we want to be more like Finland, first, we need more money and more quality teacher so we need to pay teachers more. Your proposal objectively reduces the amount of money schools have.
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  45. #245  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic


    I think Americans are forgetting to think out of their box. Sad really. You have the largest economy in the world (by far ) , yet put it all in weapons and bombs to protect you from the outside world. Why don't you stick more of it into your education system collectively. My point has always been about the class divisions it creates within schools. Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools. Its not true to say private doesn't create divisions based on wealth. Especially in the most expensive schools. Your politics is riddled with expensive privately educated kids as is ours. So are your most famous Universities based on percentages to the rest of society. Clearly showing that private pays off. Yet Americans can't get It??? Is it because of the word Socialist....is it that this word is brainwashed into you as the evil that's in this World??? Your wrong and Finland proves it. We don't need private schools. We all need better schools. Banning them will not send us to the gutter. It will ( I believe ) create closer cohesion between the classes. It will give teachers a chance to bring them together.

    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.

    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    No, people are not accepting your proposal because you are unable to offer any solutions to the problems or address any of the criticisms levied at your position. You keep ignoring the fact that your proposal increases overcrowding and underfunding of schools. I believe you ignore it because you have no response to it.

    My idea of privatizing more schools, ironically, brings the public school system much closer to Finland than yours.

    How to pay for It??? Simple in America. Stop spending so much on your MILITARY!!!! Your missile defence budget (being a big waste of money) could be a start.....

    U.S. defense spending compared to other countries | pgpf.org

    Then manage your schools to get the most out of your teachers and students.....Just like Finland.
    The US Military is only 18% of the Federal Budget. However the US government has a huge federal budget, so our total military spending ends up being bigger than that of many other countries which might be spending 50% or more of their budgets on their militaries.




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  46. #246  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic


    I think Americans are forgetting to think out of their box. Sad really. You have the largest economy in the world (by far ) , yet put it all in weapons and bombs to protect you from the outside world. Why don't you stick more of it into your education system collectively. My point has always been about the class divisions it creates within schools. Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools. Its not true to say private doesn't create divisions based on wealth. Especially in the most expensive schools. Your politics is riddled with expensive privately educated kids as is ours. So are your most famous Universities based on percentages to the rest of society. Clearly showing that private pays off. Yet Americans can't get It??? Is it because of the word Socialist....is it that this word is brainwashed into you as the evil that's in this World??? Your wrong and Finland proves it. We don't need private schools. We all need better schools. Banning them will not send us to the gutter. It will ( I believe ) create closer cohesion between the classes. It will give teachers a chance to bring them together.

    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.

    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    No, people are not accepting your proposal because you are unable to offer any solutions to the problems or address any of the criticisms levied at your position. You keep ignoring the fact that your proposal increases overcrowding and underfunding of schools. I believe you ignore it because you have no response to it.

    My idea of privatizing more schools, ironically, brings the public school system much closer to Finland than yours.

    How to pay for It??? Simple in America. Stop spending so much on your MILITARY!!!! Your missile defence budget (being a big waste of money) could be a start.....

    U.S. defense spending compared to other countries | pgpf.org

    Then manage your schools to get the most out of your teachers and students.....Just like Finland.
    The US Military is only 18% of the Federal Budget. However the US government has a huge federal budget, so our military spending ends up being bigger than that of many other countries which might be spending 50% or more of their budgets on their militaries.









    As for Finland, remember that Finland still has private schools, but they aren't allowed to charge tuition. So, really your argument is that private schools should only be allowed if they don't charge tuition, right?

    That changes the direction of the discussion. People who need special help for their children would still be able to get it in an education system that allows non-tuition private schools.
    That has always been my point. Yes if a child is disabled or needs special help it should be tuition free. All schools should be free and equal. All children deserve the same top standards . Private schools don't need to exist in Finland. If the wording private has confused people then I apologise. In the U.k private generally means your parents pay for it. All schools should be publicly funded. Free. Wealth being able to buy more opportunities in children (for me) is fundamentally wrong. All children are born innocent. They deserve the same educational opportunities. I feel that fee paying private schools create social exclusion to millions of children. Those who are successful and at the top of the table are dominated by people who went to fee paying private schools. Equality in education for me should be the goal of any education system. I believe it can be achieved ( as Finland points out) and we should do all we can to follow suit. I feel expensive private schools are creating elites in our societies and should be banned ( which I suppose does sound militant ) or our goal should be to make them obsolete. Wealth should not give advantages to a child's education. It should be a free equal playing field based upon excellence. I include religious schools as well. No tuition fees. Schools should not be allowed to charge them. If all of us in our society ( apart from those who would leave the country ) were governed by the same school rules. I believe we as communities would strive to put pressure to make them better. Its the way our systems work within the schools thats the problem.

    http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/...system-so-good
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    our public schools have a ratio of 22 max to a teacher.......when I grew up in a PRIVATE GRADE SCHOOL......our ratio was 55-57 with ONE teacher and no aides....and amazingly we LEARNED........we also learned how to work as a GROUP .....
    Unfortunately there is no longer that parent support. You knew if you didn't learn or when/if the teacher called home on your deviant behavior what was waiting. Now, the teacher calls home and parents project. You're just like that teacher that picked on me and YOU'RE the problem!!! seldom do teachers get any backup from home. The culture has changed. Now everyone is looking for imperfections so they have grounds for a lawsuit and can get rich quick.
    We didn't have parent support.


    MY KIDS had parent support.
    No No No, I mean parent support for the teacher.
    I've had more than a few calls where I call home on a student for acting like an ass in class only to have the parent reply, "So? What do you want me to do about it? You're the teacher, you figure it out." <click> Or "yeah he acts like that here at home. If you figure out how to handle him could you let me know cause I'm out of ideas."
    Back in my day the teacher had better be calling your house 'cause you did something good, otherwise it was a hard time trying to sit on a red ass for a few days. Those days are over. The parents want you to parent for them too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic


    I think Americans are forgetting to think out of their box. Sad really. You have the largest economy in the world (by far ) , yet put it all in weapons and bombs to protect you from the outside world. Why don't you stick more of it into your education system collectively. My point has always been about the class divisions it creates within schools. Yet you don't think So? My family is wealthy and yet I mixed with children whos families have very little. They are still my friends to this day. I would never have met them if I went to private schools. Its not true to say private doesn't create divisions based on wealth. Especially in the most expensive schools. Your politics is riddled with expensive privately educated kids as is ours. So are your most famous Universities based on percentages to the rest of society. Clearly showing that private pays off. Yet Americans can't get It??? Is it because of the word Socialist....is it that this word is brainwashed into you as the evil that's in this World??? Your wrong and Finland proves it. We don't need private schools. We all need better schools. Banning them will not send us to the gutter. It will ( I believe ) create closer cohesion between the classes. It will give teachers a chance to bring them together.

    America is just waiting for a match......I feel that school is a way to make sure it doesn't set itself on fire.

    Also I would like to add. That my friends who were from poor families in our neighbourhood have benefited with jobs and opportunities with the connections they made at our Grammar school. They found investment in their businesses.
    It's the parents not the schools
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    We don't need private schools OR public schools; we need better schools. If we can do that by closing all public schools, going all private and using a voucher system, great.
    Absolutely NOT! vouchers are education death!! Charter schools were a way to sneak vouchers in even though the voters in Ca. said no way. Man, if people think the kids are dumb now, just they wait 'til the charter generation starts "graduating." If you believe in a deity start praying for us all!
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    We don't need private schools OR public schools; we need better schools. If we can do that by closing all public schools, going all private and using a voucher system, great.
    Absolutely NOT! vouchers are education death!! Charter schools were a way to sneak vouchers in even though the voters in Ca. said no way. Man, if people think the kids are dumb now, just they wait 'til the charter generation starts "graduating." If you believe in a deity start praying for us all!
    I'd like to hear what you hate about it so much.

    Just curious, I'm fairly neutral either way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    No No No, I mean parent support for the teacher.
    I've had more than a few calls where I call home on a student for acting like an ass in class only to have the parent reply, "So? What do you want me to do about it? You're the teacher, you figure it out." <click> Or "yeah he acts like that here at home. If you figure out how to handle him could you let me know cause I'm out of ideas."
    Back in my day the teacher had better be calling your house 'cause you did something good, otherwise it was a hard time trying to sit on a red ass for a few days. Those days are over. The parents want you to parent for them too.
    While anecdotes are interesting the reality is kids of the past were by nearly every measure less disciplined, more prone to get pregnant or get a girl pregnant, commit violence and other crimes, far less aware of social issues or willing to be an advocate for other's rights than the current generation.



    Corporal discipline is about the worst way to teach someone the self control necessary to function well in a modern society.

    --

    That being said, there are still profound problems in some communities that certainly echo and translate into poor school performance and continuing inequality of performance from poor to wealthy communities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    our public schools have a ratio of 22 max to a teacher.......when I grew up in a PRIVATE GRADE SCHOOL......our ratio was 55-57 with ONE teacher and no aides....and amazingly we LEARNED........we also learned how to work as a GROUP .....
    Unfortunately there is no longer that parent support. You knew if you didn't learn or when/if the teacher called home on your deviant behavior what was waiting. Now, the teacher calls home and parents project. You're just like that teacher that picked on me and YOU'RE the problem!!! seldom do teachers get any backup from home. The culture has changed. Now everyone is looking for imperfections so they have grounds for a lawsuit and can get rich quick.
    We didn't have parent support.


    MY KIDS had parent support.
    No No No, I mean parent support for the teacher.
    I've had more than a few calls where I call home on a student for acting like an ass in class only to have the parent reply, "So? What do you want me to do about it? You're the teacher, you figure it out." <click> Or "yeah he acts like that here at home. If you figure out how to handle him could you let me know cause I'm out of ideas."
    Back in my day the teacher had better be calling your house 'cause you did something good, otherwise it was a hard time trying to sit on a red ass for a few days. Those days are over. The parents want you to parent for them too.
    Didn't get any calls on daughter, but *laughing* did get a few on son. They were disciplined at home. Bad behavior needs to be addressed by parents.

    However, that being said, my son had a teacher who HATED him. He loved the subject and took her as the only one teaching this class. She berated him, and I offered to talk to her but he BEGGED me not to. Well she gave him a D-, regardless that he did his homework, went to class and turned in his assignments punctually.

    It was a shame.

    So many great teachers......and one bad apple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Absolutely NOT! vouchers are education death!!
    Well, public education death perhaps, not education death. In many ways it would improve education. If every person in the US got $10,000 a year per student in the form of a voucher, schools would improve rapidly as parents chose the better schools and ignored the poor schools, which would then close for lack of funding.

    However there are enough other problems with the voucher program that it would not be my first choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Absolutely NOT! vouchers are education death!!
    Well, public education death perhaps, not education death. In many ways it would improve education. If every person in the US got $10,000 a year per student in the form of a voucher, schools would improve rapidly as parents chose the better schools and ignored the poor schools, which would then close for lack of funding.

    However there are enough other problems with the voucher program that it would not be my first choice.
    Parent's often don't pick "better schools," that is a big part of why vouchers aren't working and why nearly half of private schools don't perform any better than public ones, despite having an advantage of more rigorous acceptance standards and having fewer special education or behavior problems children etc. They are picking school that don't teach evolution, ones that will teach creationism or some other superstitions and are often immune to academic standards set out by the State or Federal government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    We don't need private schools OR public schools; we need better schools. If we can do that by closing all public schools, going all private and using a voucher system, great.
    Absolutely NOT! vouchers are education death!! Charter schools were a way to sneak vouchers in even though the voters in Ca. said no way. Man, if people think the kids are dumb now, just they wait 'til the charter generation starts "graduating." If you believe in a deity start praying for us all!
    I'd like to hear what you hate about it so much.

    Just curious, I'm fairly neutral either way.
    The voucher program takes public monies and uses is for private institutions thereby using public money to create a division within societies (basically, the real version of what Jono is complaining about. If this was what Jono was complaining about I would be completely on his side, but private institutions are completely funded privately and take no public funds).

    Secondly, vouchers theoretically would be used to fund students' private religious schools and that would mean that the state is supporting religious institutions with public money. Yet again, another no no. If we as a country want to create/have class divisions then so be it but my tax money is not going to support that and that's what vouchers do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    No No No, I mean parent support for the teacher.
    I've had more than a few calls where I call home on a student for acting like an ass in class only to have the parent reply, "So? What do you want me to do about it? You're the teacher, you figure it out." <click> Or "yeah he acts like that here at home. If you figure out how to handle him could you let me know cause I'm out of ideas."
    Back in my day the teacher had better be calling your house 'cause you did something good, otherwise it was a hard time trying to sit on a red ass for a few days. Those days are over. The parents want you to parent for them too.
    While anecdotes are interesting the reality is kids of the past were by nearly every measure less disciplined, more prone to get pregnant or get a girl pregnant, commit violence and other crimes, far less aware of social issues or willing to be an advocate for other's rights than the current generation.

    [<snip>]
    Corporal discipline is about the worst way to teach someone the self control necessary to function well in a modern society.

    --

    That being said, there are still profound problems in some communities that certainly echo and translate into poor school performance and continuing inequality of performance from poor to wealthy communities.
    I was a student through the 80's and the mid part of the 90's where most of those things are dipped low. However, those graphs don't really address the classroom behavior. Those are destructive outside the classroom behaviors. I dare say not many girls got pregnant in the classroom. So, while those kids may have been doing their own thing outside of the classroom, we were following the script in the classroom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I was a student through the 80's and the mid part of the 90's where most of those things are dipped low. However, those graphs don't really address the classroom behavior. Those are destructive outside the classroom behaviors. I dare say not many girls got pregnant in the classroom. So, while those kids may have been doing their own thing outside of the classroom, we were following the script in the classroom.
    The trends nearly the same as most teachers would expect because virtually nothing happens at home our outside the classroom that doesn't also spill into the school.

    But we can get more specific as well, showing homocides by students of other students in schools...it mirrors reduced violence of recent generation:

    National Statistics » Youth Violence Project » Curry School of Education

    The reality is the current generation, despite their problems is the best generation of children the US has ever had by a long shot. Only burned out or incompetent teachers can't cope with them and control their classrooms--and if they can't with today's kids they probably wouldn't have done no better with the bigoted, violent generation they came from but now remember with rose colored glasses (like every generation since Aristotle's complaints about youth).
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  58. #258  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Didn't get any calls on daughter, but *laughing* did get a few on son. They were disciplined at home.
    That's excellent and a long lost parenting move.


    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Bad behavior needs to be addressed by parents.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    However, that being said, my son had a teacher who HATED him. He loved the subject and took her as the only one teaching this class. She berated him, and I offered to talk to her but he BEGGED me not to. Well she gave him a D-, regardless that he did his homework, went to class and turned in his assignments punctually.
    At the risk of offending you, because I don't know your son, I would suggest that there perhaps was a reason he didn't want you to speak to the teacher. Teachers don't pick students out of the blue to "not like." Also, maybe it's my naivete, but I certainly wouldn't assign somebody a poor grade when their homework and test scores say differently. That is definitely a battle I would lose if I was ever called out on it.

    Depending on how long ago your son was in that class I would ask him about it again and find out what really was going on instead of relying on the one-sided explanation of a high school student trying to stay out of trouble. Was he defiant? was he tardy to class? Was his work done incorrectly? Did he cheat on assignments and tests? Did he challenge his/her authority on the subject or just his/her authority in general? There are many things that would contribute to his poor grade, and I would dare say there was a reason other than "Mr./Mrs XXXXX just doesn't like me."
    There are several students I absolutely loathe, but I would never grade them poorly for it. One kid comes to class high every day, but his work is completed and is acceptable and he scores well on tests so he has the B he has earned. It's a low B but I'm not knocking him down to a C, he gets the points he's earned. I will say though, if his grade was a 79.9 I would not bump him to a B he would get the C even though the B is a luxury I would afford any other student. But that's as far as the penalty extends for me when dealing with a prick student.

    Now, I will fully concede that there are personalities between students and teachers that don't mesh at all, but only a fool would act on that and even if they did act on it your son would've had to continually do things to make the teacher not forget that their personalities don't mesh in order to keep that sour taste fresh. At that point the lessons in class become "stay out of Mr./Mrs. XXXXX way." Which is a good lesson for life really, because we all encounter those people at work.




    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It was a shame.

    So many great teachers......and one bad apple.
    Truth be told, students don't act all the same way in all of their classes. I have a student first period who is ridiculously respectful in class. It came as a shock when I saw him the other day talking back to his math teacher and running in and out of her class and just being a horrible person.I checked his behavior file and found this is the norm with the rest of his teachers. I would never suspect this student of this behavior based on how he is in my class but there it was on display. A full on Jekyll and Hide performance. Does that mean I'm the good apple in a barrel full of bad apple? I would say no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I was a student through the 80's and the mid part of the 90's where most of those things are dipped low. However, those graphs don't really address the classroom behavior. Those are destructive outside the classroom behaviors. I dare say not many girls got pregnant in the classroom. So, while those kids may have been doing their own thing outside of the classroom, we were following the script in the classroom.
    The trends nearly the same as most teachers would expect because virtually nothing happens at home our outside the classroom that doesn't also spill into the school.

    But we can get more specific as well, showing homocides by students of other students in schools...it mirrors reduced violence of recent generation:
    [<snip>]
    National Statistics » Youth Violence Project » Curry School of Education

    The reality is the current generation, despite their problems is the best generation of children the US has ever had by a long shot. Only burned out or incompetent teachers can't cope with them and control their classrooms--and if they can't with today's kids they probably wouldn't have done no better with the bigoted, violent generation they came from but now remember with rose colored glasses (like every generation since Aristotle's complaints about youth).
    "I'm sorry to have to call again Mrs. Doe. Johnny was making great strides in my class but he slipped today and murdered another student. I suspect you will have another talk with him about this.thank you so much for your understanding in the matter."

    I generally have no problems in my classes with behavior and I work at an inner city school (Inner city schools: the notoriously worst of the worst in public schools )
    and I'm well aware of the "the youth of today complaint."

    Do you have any defiance stats? (not that I have problems with that but those around me are drowning. It seems many don't know how to build rapport without handing over their authority or they think they are in charge because because they are the teacher and the kids will automatically respect that, not surprisingly those are the colleagues that are having the worst time.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post


    As for Finland, remember that Finland still has private schools, but they aren't allowed to charge tuition. So, really your argument is that private schools should only be allowed if they don't charge tuition, right?

    That changes the direction of the discussion. People who need special help for their children would still be able to get it in an education system that allows non-tuition private schools.
    That has always been my point. Yes if a child is disabled or needs special help it should be tuition free. All schools should be free and equal. All children deserve the same top standards . Private schools don't need to exist in Finland. If the wording private has confused people then I apologise. In the U.k private generally means your parents pay for it. All schools should be publicly funded. Free.
    With that out of the way, you probably have more common ground with others on this forum.

    Wealth being able to buy more opportunities in children (for me) is fundamentally wrong. All children are born innocent. They deserve the same educational opportunities. I feel that fee paying private schools create social exclusion to millions of children. Those who are successful and at the top of the table are dominated by people who went to fee paying private schools. Equality in education for me should be the goal of any education system.

    There are two separate issues here:

    1) - Buying of better training/knowledge.

    2) - Buying of opportunities.

    As for #2, it definitely is wrong to let people bribe their way to the front of the line. You don't want graduates of a certain private school to be favored over graduates of another for non-meritocratic reasons, like just because it is that school. Or on the blind assumption that all graduates of that school are better than all graduates of another school.


    As for issue #1 - Giving one's own child better training is not an attempt to deny anything to anyone else. That would be like arguing that if I buy a Corvette, I am attempting to force the rest of the world to drive around in less expensive cars. Or if I live in a city where the buses are free, but I choose to buy a car, it would be like arguing that I'm trying to force the rest of the world to ride the bus.

    If I put my kid in a tuition school and it only results in them knowing their ABC's better, and learning long hand multiplication at an earlier age - there's nothing unfair about my choice to do that. As long as they're not getting an unfairly improved chance of admission to college. Getting bumped to the front of the line with less scrutiny is unfair to the others who must get bumped to the back of the same line. But having better skills is not unfair.


    If all of us in our society ( apart from those who would leave the country ) were governed by the same school rules. I believe we as communities would strive to put pressure to make them better. Its the way our systems work within the schools thats the problem.

    Why is the Finnish school system so good? | Left Foot Forward
    I don't see why this would fail to happen in a society where tuition schools are present. The vast majority of the population is still going to be using the public system, and so they're still going to want the public system to be better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Well, public education death perhaps, not education death. In many ways it would improve education. If every person in the US got $10,000 a year per student in the form of a voucher, schools would improve rapidly as parents chose the better schools and ignored the poor schools, which would then close for lack of funding.

    However there are enough other problems with the voucher program that it would not be my first choice.
    How does a voucher system work? Do people get transportation to the better school across town? Does the money have to be used for education or would some be tempted to use it for other things? Can different "public" schools charge different amounts? If the "bad" schools did close down because of lack of funding, where would the rest of those students end up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    How does a voucher system work?
    You get a voucher that can only be used for tuition. One voucher per child.
    Do people get transportation to the better school across town?
    Free transportation? No. In many cases the town/county might provide cheap/free public transportation passes but that would not be part of a voucher program.
    Does the money have to be used for education or would some be tempted to use it for other things?
    It has to be used specifically for tuition.
    Can different "public" schools charge different amounts?
    In a "pure" voucher system every school can charge what it pleases. In most practical systems public schools either charge a fixed amount (equal to the voucher) or do not participate (i.e. enrolling in a public school means you do not get a voucher.)
    If the "bad" schools did close down because of lack of funding, where would the rest of those students end up?
    Well, the only reason they would lose all funding is if everyone pulled their kids out, so in that case there would be no "rest of the students." However you could see cases where very few kids were left in a school, and it was not enough to keep even a part of the school open. In that case it would be up to their parents where they went next. (Note - this actually happened to me when I went to school, although it was a purely public school.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Parent's often don't pick "better schools," that is a big part of why vouchers aren't working . . .
    Well, I'd say that they think different things are important, but yes - that's one of the problems with them.

    They are picking school that don't teach evolution, ones that will teach creationism or some other superstitions and are often immune to academic standards set out by the State or Federal government.
    Similar problems with public schools in many places, and a similar solution would apply - no public money (or voucher redemption) without a standard curriculum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Didn't get any calls on daughter, but *laughing* did get a few on son. They were disciplined at home.
    That's excellent and a long lost parenting move.


    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Bad behavior needs to be addressed by parents.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    However, that being said, my son had a teacher who HATED him. He loved the subject and took her as the only one teaching this class. She berated him, and I offered to talk to her but he BEGGED me not to. Well she gave him a D-, regardless that he did his homework, went to class and turned in his assignments punctually.
    At the risk of offending you, because I don't know your son, I would suggest that there perhaps was a reason he didn't want you to speak to the teacher. Teachers don't pick students out of the blue to "not like." Also, maybe it's my naivete, but I certainly wouldn't assign somebody a poor grade when their homework and test scores say differently. That is definitely a battle I would lose if I was ever called out on it.

    Depending on how long ago your son was in that class I would ask him about it again and find out what really was going on instead of relying on the one-sided explanation of a high school student trying to stay out of trouble. Was he defiant? was he tardy to class? Was his work done incorrectly? Did he cheat on assignments and tests? Did he challenge his/her authority on the subject or just his/her authority in general? There are many things that would contribute to his poor grade, and I would dare say there was a reason other than "Mr./Mrs XXXXX just doesn't like me."
    There are several students I absolutely loathe, but I would never grade them poorly for it. One kid comes to class high every day, but his work is completed and is acceptable and he scores well on tests so he has the B he has earned. It's a low B but I'm not knocking him down to a C, he gets the points he's earned. I will say though, if his grade was a 79.9 I would not bump him to a B he would get the C even though the B is a luxury I would afford any other student. But that's as far as the penalty extends for me when dealing with a prick student.

    Now, I will fully concede that there are personalities between students and teachers that don't mesh at all, but only a fool would act on that and even if they did act on it your son would've had to continually do things to make the teacher not forget that their personalities don't mesh in order to keep that sour taste fresh. At that point the lessons in class become "stay out of Mr./Mrs. XXXXX way." Which is a good lesson for life really, because we all encounter those people at work.




    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It was a shame.

    So many great teachers......and one bad apple.
    Truth be told, students don't act all the same way in all of their classes. I have a student first period who is ridiculously respectful in class. It came as a shock when I saw him the other day talking back to his math teacher and running in and out of her class and just being a horrible person.I checked his behavior file and found this is the norm with the rest of his teachers. I would never suspect this student of this behavior based on how he is in my class but there it was on display. A full on Jekyll and Hide performance. Does that mean I'm the good apple in a barrel full of bad apple? I would say no.
    I DO know my son.

    I did see his work.

    I did TALK to her after she sent home a photo he took and called it "inappropriate". There was NOTHING inappropriate about it. One student turned in pictures of his bra and panty clad girlfriend, and that was deemed appropriate, but a photo of a bunch of high school boys being silly, (no nasty nudity, gestures, just silly!!! was). I read what she wrote on EACH AND EVERY ONE OF HIS PHOTOGRAPHS!!.....it was plain rude.

    His student work was more along the lines of human behavior than contemporary pasture pieces. He liked taking pictures of people.


    He always treated, even the teachers he did not like with respect, because he KNEW if he did not, he'd get the "WRATH OF MOM", which would be worse.

    He was NEVER every reported for any bad or disrespect towards her in or OUT of her classroom.

    She simply did NOT like him.

    I have worked in two schools. A Junior High School and a Senior High School so kids ages to 19.

    There is a difference with some teachers on how they embrace thoughts of students.

    She plain "DID NOT LIKE HIM"!

    I cut ZERO slack for this teacher.

    I talked to a few other teacher friends who knew her. There was not a lot of respect among them. That speaks volumes.

    It wasn't my son, it was her.
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  65. #265  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Didn't get any calls on daughter, but *laughing* did get a few on son. They were disciplined at home.
    That's excellent and a long lost parenting move.


    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Bad behavior needs to be addressed by parents.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    However, that being said, my son had a teacher who HATED him. He loved the subject and took her as the only one teaching this class. She berated him, and I offered to talk to her but he BEGGED me not to. Well she gave him a D-, regardless that he did his homework, went to class and turned in his assignments punctually.
    At the risk of offending you, because I don't know your son, I would suggest that there perhaps was a reason he didn't want you to speak to the teacher. Teachers don't pick students out of the blue to "not like." Also, maybe it's my naivete, but I certainly wouldn't assign somebody a poor grade when their homework and test scores say differently. That is definitely a battle I would lose if I was ever called out on it.

    Depending on how long ago your son was in that class I would ask him about it again and find out what really was going on instead of relying on the one-sided explanation of a high school student trying to stay out of trouble. Was he defiant? was he tardy to class? Was his work done incorrectly? Did he cheat on assignments and tests? Did he challenge his/her authority on the subject or just his/her authority in general? There are many things that would contribute to his poor grade, and I would dare say there was a reason other than "Mr./Mrs XXXXX just doesn't like me."
    There are several students I absolutely loathe, but I would never grade them poorly for it. One kid comes to class high every day, but his work is completed and is acceptable and he scores well on tests so he has the B he has earned. It's a low B but I'm not knocking him down to a C, he gets the points he's earned. I will say though, if his grade was a 79.9 I would not bump him to a B he would get the C even though the B is a luxury I would afford any other student. But that's as far as the penalty extends for me when dealing with a prick student.

    Now, I will fully concede that there are personalities between students and teachers that don't mesh at all, but only a fool would act on that and even if they did act on it your son would've had to continually do things to make the teacher not forget that their personalities don't mesh in order to keep that sour taste fresh. At that point the lessons in class become "stay out of Mr./Mrs. XXXXX way." Which is a good lesson for life really, because we all encounter those people at work.




    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It was a shame.

    So many great teachers......and one bad apple.
    Truth be told, students don't act all the same way in all of their classes. I have a student first period who is ridiculously respectful in class. It came as a shock when I saw him the other day talking back to his math teacher and running in and out of her class and just being a horrible person.I checked his behavior file and found this is the norm with the rest of his teachers. I would never suspect this student of this behavior based on how he is in my class but there it was on display. A full on Jekyll and Hide performance. Does that mean I'm the good apple in a barrel full of bad apple? I would say no.
    I DO know my son.

    I did see his work.

    I did TALK to her after she sent home a photo he took and called it "inappropriate". There was NOTHING inappropriate about it. One student turned in pictures of his bra and panty clad girlfriend, and that was deemed appropriate, but a photo of a bunch of high school boys being silly, (no nasty nudity, gestures, just silly!!! was). I read what she wrote on EACH AND EVERY ONE OF HIS PHOTOGRAPHS!!.....it was plain rude.

    His student work was more along the lines of human behavior than contemporary pasture pieces. He liked taking pictures of people.


    He always treated, even the teachers he did not like with respect, because he KNEW if he did not, he'd get the "WRATH OF MOM", which would be worse.

    He was NEVER every reported for any bad or disrespect towards her in or OUT of her classroom.

    She simply did NOT like him.

    I have worked in two schools. A Junior High School and a Senior High School so kids ages to 19.

    There is a difference with some teachers on how they embrace thoughts of students.

    She plain "DID NOT LIKE HIM"!

    I cut ZERO slack for this teacher.

    I talked to a few other teacher friends who knew her. There was not a lot of respect among them. That speaks volumes.

    It wasn't my son, it was her.
    I was trying to be respectful, in my "other side" situation, I'm pretty sure I made that clear, so I'm not sure that your response merited all of that shouting. I'm sure that teacher was horrible, but I'd be willing to bet if you were to ask your son now, what beef there was, you might hear a little something more than what you didn't hear back when, but whatever. I don't wish to be shouted at again. So, good day.
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  66. #266  
    Forum Masters Degree DianeG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    How does a voucher system work?
    You get a voucher that can only be used for tuition. One voucher per child.
    Do people get transportation to the better school across town?
    Free transportation? No. In many cases the town/county might provide cheap/free public transportation passes but that would not be part of a voucher program.
    Does the money have to be used for education or would some be tempted to use it for other things?
    It has to be used specifically for tuition.
    Can different "public" schools charge different amounts?
    In a "pure" voucher system every school can charge what it pleases. In most practical systems public schools either charge a fixed amount (equal to the voucher) or do not participate (i.e. enrolling in a public school means you do not get a voucher.)
    If the "bad" schools did close down because of lack of funding, where would the rest of those students end up?
    Well, the only reason they would lose all funding is if everyone pulled their kids out, so in that case there would be no "rest of the students." However you could see cases where very few kids were left in a school, and it was not enough to keep even a part of the school open. In that case it would be up to their parents where they went next. (Note - this actually happened to me when I went to school, although it was a purely public school.)
    Well, it's an interesting alternative. I don't know how I feel about it - whether it would improve schools or leave some students in the dust.

    Sometimes I have doubts about forcing schools the conform completely to a free enterprise model. I heard a story on the radio about evaluating Head Start programs and shutting down those with the poorest performance statistics, but in some cases that could be like penalizing oncologists because they have higher mortality rates than other doctors.

    And I think that even though accountability in free enterprise is the gold standard according to conservatives, government run institutions are actually held to higher standards in many cases. Here's an illustration of what I mean by that:

    Let's say you decide to open a fitness center. You have to provide a variety of exercise equipment, kept well maintained, in a clean, pleasant environment, with enthusiastic, knowledgeable staff to assist your customers, at a reasonable price. If you don't, people will go else where. So I agree competition and economics holds one accountable.

    But lets say one day some body walks in to your fitness center and informs you that legislation has just been passed that now requires you to keep records about how many people who purchase memberships actually show up and work out, and you must show that your clients actually lose weight, improve their cardiovascular fitness and muscular strength, lower their blood pressure, and decrease their rates of diabetes, and stop smoking. If you can't do this, you will be shut down, and your staff fired, since they obviously are not doing their jobs properly.

    You would probably say "Wait, that's not fair. I provide a good product at a reasonable price. I follow all health and safety laws, etc, but what people actually do with that product, how successful they are, is not my responsibility. If somebody buys a gym membership just to meet girls, or stops at McDonalds on the way home, I have no control over that." And you'd be right.

    But the government is often responsible not just for the quality of a service, but the final outcome, whether it actually accomplishes certain objectives, in ways that the private sector rarely is.
    grmpysmrf likes this.
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  67. #267  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Didn't get any calls on daughter, but *laughing* did get a few on son. They were disciplined at home.
    That's excellent and a long lost parenting move.


    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Bad behavior needs to be addressed by parents.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    However, that being said, my son had a teacher who HATED him. He loved the subject and took her as the only one teaching this class. She berated him, and I offered to talk to her but he BEGGED me not to. Well she gave him a D-, regardless that he did his homework, went to class and turned in his assignments punctually.
    At the risk of offending you, because I don't know your son, I would suggest that there perhaps was a reason he didn't want you to speak to the teacher. Teachers don't pick students out of the blue to "not like." Also, maybe it's my naivete, but I certainly wouldn't assign somebody a poor grade when their homework and test scores say differently. That is definitely a battle I would lose if I was ever called out on it.

    Depending on how long ago your son was in that class I would ask him about it again and find out what really was going on instead of relying on the one-sided explanation of a high school student trying to stay out of trouble. Was he defiant? was he tardy to class? Was his work done incorrectly? Did he cheat on assignments and tests? Did he challenge his/her authority on the subject or just his/her authority in general? There are many things that would contribute to his poor grade, and I would dare say there was a reason other than "Mr./Mrs XXXXX just doesn't like me."
    There are several students I absolutely loathe, but I would never grade them poorly for it. One kid comes to class high every day, but his work is completed and is acceptable and he scores well on tests so he has the B he has earned. It's a low B but I'm not knocking him down to a C, he gets the points he's earned. I will say though, if his grade was a 79.9 I would not bump him to a B he would get the C even though the B is a luxury I would afford any other student. But that's as far as the penalty extends for me when dealing with a prick student.

    Now, I will fully concede that there are personalities between students and teachers that don't mesh at all, but only a fool would act on that and even if they did act on it your son would've had to continually do things to make the teacher not forget that their personalities don't mesh in order to keep that sour taste fresh. At that point the lessons in class become "stay out of Mr./Mrs. XXXXX way." Which is a good lesson for life really, because we all encounter those people at work.




    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It was a shame.

    So many great teachers......and one bad apple.
    Truth be told, students don't act all the same way in all of their classes. I have a student first period who is ridiculously respectful in class. It came as a shock when I saw him the other day talking back to his math teacher and running in and out of her class and just being a horrible person.I checked his behavior file and found this is the norm with the rest of his teachers. I would never suspect this student of this behavior based on how he is in my class but there it was on display. A full on Jekyll and Hide performance. Does that mean I'm the good apple in a barrel full of bad apple? I would say no.
    I DO know my son.

    I did see his work.

    I did TALK to her after she sent home a photo he took and called it "inappropriate". There was NOTHING inappropriate about it. One student turned in pictures of his bra and panty clad girlfriend, and that was deemed appropriate, but a photo of a bunch of high school boys being silly, (no nasty nudity, gestures, just silly!!! was). I read what she wrote on EACH AND EVERY ONE OF HIS PHOTOGRAPHS!!.....it was plain rude.

    His student work was more along the lines of human behavior than contemporary pasture pieces. He liked taking pictures of people.


    He always treated, even the teachers he did not like with respect, because he KNEW if he did not, he'd get the "WRATH OF MOM", which would be worse.

    He was NEVER every reported for any bad or disrespect towards her in or OUT of her classroom.

    She simply did NOT like him.

    I have worked in two schools. A Junior High School and a Senior High School so kids ages to 19.

    There is a difference with some teachers on how they embrace thoughts of students.

    She plain "DID NOT LIKE HIM"!

    I cut ZERO slack for this teacher.

    I talked to a few other teacher friends who knew her. There was not a lot of respect among them. That speaks volumes.

    It wasn't my son, it was her.
    I was trying to be respectful, in my "other side" situation, I'm pretty sure I made that clear, so I'm not sure that your response merited all of that shouting. I'm sure that teacher was horrible, but I'd be willing to bet if you were to ask your son now, what beef there was, you might hear a little something more than what you didn't hear back when, but whatever. I don't wish to be shouted at again. So, good day.

    I attempt to state my entire story....if you find that yelling...my apologies.


    And no.....I have asked him about her....

    I got the same answer 14 years later.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  68. #268  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Didn't get any calls on daughter, but *laughing* did get a few on son. They were disciplined at home.
    That's excellent and a long lost parenting move.


    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Bad behavior needs to be addressed by parents.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    However, that being said, my son had a teacher who HATED him. He loved the subject and took her as the only one teaching this class. She berated him, and I offered to talk to her but he BEGGED me not to. Well she gave him a D-, regardless that he did his homework, went to class and turned in his assignments punctually.
    At the risk of offending you, because I don't know your son, I would suggest that there perhaps was a reason he didn't want you to speak to the teacher. Teachers don't pick students out of the blue to "not like." Also, maybe it's my naivete, but I certainly wouldn't assign somebody a poor grade when their homework and test scores say differently. That is definitely a battle I would lose if I was ever called out on it.

    Depending on how long ago your son was in that class I would ask him about it again and find out what really was going on instead of relying on the one-sided explanation of a high school student trying to stay out of trouble. Was he defiant? was he tardy to class? Was his work done incorrectly? Did he cheat on assignments and tests? Did he challenge his/her authority on the subject or just his/her authority in general? There are many things that would contribute to his poor grade, and I would dare say there was a reason other than "Mr./Mrs XXXXX just doesn't like me."
    There are several students I absolutely loathe, but I would never grade them poorly for it. One kid comes to class high every day, but his work is completed and is acceptable and he scores well on tests so he has the B he has earned. It's a low B but I'm not knocking him down to a C, he gets the points he's earned. I will say though, if his grade was a 79.9 I would not bump him to a B he would get the C even though the B is a luxury I would afford any other student. But that's as far as the penalty extends for me when dealing with a prick student.

    Now, I will fully concede that there are personalities between students and teachers that don't mesh at all, but only a fool would act on that and even if they did act on it your son would've had to continually do things to make the teacher not forget that their personalities don't mesh in order to keep that sour taste fresh. At that point the lessons in class become "stay out of Mr./Mrs. XXXXX way." Which is a good lesson for life really, because we all encounter those people at work.




    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It was a shame.

    So many great teachers......and one bad apple.
    Truth be told, students don't act all the same way in all of their classes. I have a student first period who is ridiculously respectful in class. It came as a shock when I saw him the other day talking back to his math teacher and running in and out of her class and just being a horrible person.I checked his behavior file and found this is the norm with the rest of his teachers. I would never suspect this student of this behavior based on how he is in my class but there it was on display. A full on Jekyll and Hide performance. Does that mean I'm the good apple in a barrel full of bad apple? I would say no.
    I DO know my son.

    I did see his work.

    I did TALK to her after she sent home a photo he took and called it "inappropriate". There was NOTHING inappropriate about it. One student turned in pictures of his bra and panty clad girlfriend, and that was deemed appropriate, but a photo of a bunch of high school boys being silly, (no nasty nudity, gestures, just silly!!! was). I read what she wrote on EACH AND EVERY ONE OF HIS PHOTOGRAPHS!!.....it was plain rude.

    His student work was more along the lines of human behavior than contemporary pasture pieces. He liked taking pictures of people.


    He always treated, even the teachers he did not like with respect, because he KNEW if he did not, he'd get the "WRATH OF MOM", which would be worse.

    He was NEVER every reported for any bad or disrespect towards her in or OUT of her classroom.

    She simply did NOT like him.

    I have worked in two schools. A Junior High School and a Senior High School so kids ages to 19.

    There is a difference with some teachers on how they embrace thoughts of students.

    She plain "DID NOT LIKE HIM"!

    I cut ZERO slack for this teacher.

    I talked to a few other teacher friends who knew her. There was not a lot of respect among them. That speaks volumes.

    It wasn't my son, it was her.
    I was trying to be respectful, in my "other side" situation, I'm pretty sure I made that clear, so I'm not sure that your response merited all of that shouting. I'm sure that teacher was horrible, but I'd be willing to bet if you were to ask your son now, what beef there was, you might hear a little something more than what you didn't hear back when, but whatever. I don't wish to be shouted at again. So, good day.

    I attempt to state my entire story....if you find that yelling...my apologies.


    And no.....I have asked him about her....

    I got the same answer 14 years later.
    I found the caps to be yelling, yes.
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  69. #269  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Didn't get any calls on daughter, but *laughing* did get a few on son. They were disciplined at home.
    That's excellent and a long lost parenting move.


    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Bad behavior needs to be addressed by parents.


    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    However, that being said, my son had a teacher who HATED him. He loved the subject and took her as the only one teaching this class. She berated him, and I offered to talk to her but he BEGGED me not to. Well she gave him a D-, regardless that he did his homework, went to class and turned in his assignments punctually.
    At the risk of offending you, because I don't know your son, I would suggest that there perhaps was a reason he didn't want you to speak to the teacher. Teachers don't pick students out of the blue to "not like." Also, maybe it's my naivete, but I certainly wouldn't assign somebody a poor grade when their homework and test scores say differently. That is definitely a battle I would lose if I was ever called out on it.

    Depending on how long ago your son was in that class I would ask him about it again and find out what really was going on instead of relying on the one-sided explanation of a high school student trying to stay out of trouble. Was he defiant? was he tardy to class? Was his work done incorrectly? Did he cheat on assignments and tests? Did he challenge his/her authority on the subject or just his/her authority in general? There are many things that would contribute to his poor grade, and I would dare say there was a reason other than "Mr./Mrs XXXXX just doesn't like me."
    There are several students I absolutely loathe, but I would never grade them poorly for it. One kid comes to class high every day, but his work is completed and is acceptable and he scores well on tests so he has the B he has earned. It's a low B but I'm not knocking him down to a C, he gets the points he's earned. I will say though, if his grade was a 79.9 I would not bump him to a B he would get the C even though the B is a luxury I would afford any other student. But that's as far as the penalty extends for me when dealing with a prick student.

    Now, I will fully concede that there are personalities between students and teachers that don't mesh at all, but only a fool would act on that and even if they did act on it your son would've had to continually do things to make the teacher not forget that their personalities don't mesh in order to keep that sour taste fresh. At that point the lessons in class become "stay out of Mr./Mrs. XXXXX way." Which is a good lesson for life really, because we all encounter those people at work.




    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It was a shame.

    So many great teachers......and one bad apple.
    Truth be told, students don't act all the same way in all of their classes. I have a student first period who is ridiculously respectful in class. It came as a shock when I saw him the other day talking back to his math teacher and running in and out of her class and just being a horrible person.I checked his behavior file and found this is the norm with the rest of his teachers. I would never suspect this student of this behavior based on how he is in my class but there it was on display. A full on Jekyll and Hide performance. Does that mean I'm the good apple in a barrel full of bad apple? I would say no.
    I DO know my son.

    I did see his work.

    I did TALK to her after she sent home a photo he took and called it "inappropriate". There was NOTHING inappropriate about it. One student turned in pictures of his bra and panty clad girlfriend, and that was deemed appropriate, but a photo of a bunch of high school boys being silly, (no nasty nudity, gestures, just silly!!! was). I read what she wrote on EACH AND EVERY ONE OF HIS PHOTOGRAPHS!!.....it was plain rude.

    His student work was more along the lines of human behavior than contemporary pasture pieces. He liked taking pictures of people.


    He always treated, even the teachers he did not like with respect, because he KNEW if he did not, he'd get the "WRATH OF MOM", which would be worse.

    He was NEVER every reported for any bad or disrespect towards her in or OUT of her classroom.

    She simply did NOT like him.

    I have worked in two schools. A Junior High School and a Senior High School so kids ages to 19.

    There is a difference with some teachers on how they embrace thoughts of students.

    She plain "DID NOT LIKE HIM"!

    I cut ZERO slack for this teacher.

    I talked to a few other teacher friends who knew her. There was not a lot of respect among them. That speaks volumes.

    It wasn't my son, it was her.
    I was trying to be respectful, in my "other side" situation, I'm pretty sure I made that clear, so I'm not sure that your response merited all of that shouting. I'm sure that teacher was horrible, but I'd be willing to bet if you were to ask your son now, what beef there was, you might hear a little something more than what you didn't hear back when, but whatever. I don't wish to be shouted at again. So, good day.

    I attempt to state my entire story....if you find that yelling...my apologies.


    And no.....I have asked him about her....

    I got the same answer 14 years later.
    I found the caps to be yelling, yes.
    Well having been on the internet since 1988....the definition was that yelling was typing in ALL caps for the entire post........but EMPHASIS was when you posted on words you were trying to make sure stood out. Our definitions are not the same. *S*.
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  70. #270  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I found the caps to be yelling, yes.
    Well having been on the internet since 1988....the definition was that yelling was typing in ALL caps for the entire post........but EMPHASIS was when you posted on words you were trying to make sure stood out. Our definitions are not the same. *S*.
    tis all good, hugs and kisses
    Reply With Quote  
     

  71. #271  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    QUOTE=grmpysmrf;566304]
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I found the caps to be yelling, yes.
    Well having been on the internet since 1988....the definition was that yelling was typing in ALL caps for the entire post........but EMPHASIS was when you posted on words you were trying to make sure stood out. Our definitions are not the same. *S*.
    tis all good, hugs and kisses[/QUOTE]



    and back at you!!! *S*
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