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Thread: No more private Schools?

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)


    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools. Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ). Not which private school you came from. The class system should be taken out of schools. Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability. It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict. How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start? If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard. It is the one area of society that should be equal. That and health care for children. They are our future and all of them should be treated as such.
    Is this for me?
    Its not about you....its about equality for children. A fair education for them. I am sure wealthy privately educated people ( who can afford choice for their children) will be against such an idea . This whole argument for me is about what is fair for children. All of them. What is the fairest and best way to get the most from our brightest minds wherever they are from?.....how many potential Einsteins died with a bullet in the gutter? Their educational opportunities wasted because of where they were born. How much would decent funding in their schools have made a difference? Children should be spared politics, they should all have as equal a start as society can provide. The thing is, I know parents won't see it that way....they want what's best more for their own than anyone else's kids....I just feel children should be thought of collectively. That society should place equal importance in all of them...Private school prevents that. It creates an unfair advantage via money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Jonio, if you have the time, I would like an answer to my question from post #62.
    To be honest I wasn't expecting so many posts:-). I think everyone thinks I a commie :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    There's quite a fair bit of appeal to emotion going on here, not to mention other fallacies.

    Jonio, I have a question for you if you don't mind answering. Say I have the means and manpower to establish an enterprise that caters to a niche group of people (be they wealthy, gifted, talented, improvised, etc), am I to be forbidden to establish such an enterprise?
    If it creates a niche who end up dominating in government, military, business all because their parents can afford to pay you a lot of money then yes...you should be forbidden.
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  4. #104  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I think everyone thinks I a commie
    Based on what I've read in your posts so far, it is largely reliant on an appeal to emotions approach. Perhaps if you were to format your posts with clear intent on what you wish to achieve, and how your advocacy of (what appears to be) doing away/forbidding/outlawing private schools is the best way to achieve your intent, this thread of yours would not have gone in so many different directions as it have so far. Now, I understand that this is the politics subforum and that the appeal to emotions approach is to be expected to some degree, however, I'd like to see if you have something else to offer other than that particular card.

    So, if you are able to take the time to answer the question from post #62, we can perhaps make some progress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    If it creates a niche who end up dominating in government, military, business all because their parents can afford to pay you a lot of money then yes...you should be forbidden.
    Meaning to say that if I have the means and manpower to establish an enterprise that caters to a niche group of people, my responsibility of the service that I've provided extends further into their personal lives even after they have left my establishment? Even (many) years later? Is that what you are saying?
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    I am saying that if wealth overtakes ability in placing children straight into advantageous positions over others in life...as private education does in universities, politics, then yes for the greater good of our nations we should forbid it. Your responsibility has nothing to do with it. It should be societies responsibility. We should be providing an equal playing field for all children in our society to prosper. It is unjust and illogical to be placing wealth before ability as we do....It is unfair that politics of the west is becoming once again dominated by wealth over brains. Children are innocent of where they are born ( unless you believe in the hereditary caste system ). We as adults should be providing an equal start for a child's education. We do not. Its all about dads/mums wallet when it comes to schools. We do not make the most of our nations young because we treat them unfairly. The best do not rise to the top if only a select few get the chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I am saying that if wealth overtakes ability in placing children straight into advantageous positions over others in life...as private education does in universities, politics, then yes for the greater good of our nations we should forbid it. Your responsibility has nothing to do with it. It should be societies responsibility. We should be providing an equal playing field for all children in our society to prosper. It is unjust and illogical to be placing wealth before ability as we do....It is unfair that politics of the west is becoming once again dominated by wealth over brains. Children are innocent of where they are born ( unless you believe in the hereditary caste system ). We as adults should be providing an equal start for a child's education. We do not. Its all about dads/mums wallet when it comes to schools. We do not make the most of our nations young because we treat them unfairly. The best do not rise to the top if only a select few get the chance.
    How do you factor sending children abroad for private education, are you perhaps going to restrict that option as well? You do realize that what you are advocating here can only be applied at your local national level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)

    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools.
    It's not like this in America. NCLB withholds funds if the school does poorly (Thanks Bush)



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ).
    That is how it is in America sort of. there is a basic educational requirement that must be met, then daddy's money comes into play because the tuition fees are stupid large. but you don't automatically get into universities cause daddy's rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    The class system should be taken out of schools.
    that is impossible. it will always be there. you obviously missed my post where I said there is a full on class system at public school.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability.
    No they don't. Private schools have nothing to do with public schools. there is no competition between the two. Private schools take NOTHING away from public schools.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict.
    That is NOT created by private schools. The classes are already divided whether the sit next to each other in the same class or not. You seem to be under the impression that if we get rid of a symptom we cure the disease. So, lets ban sagging pants so we won't have a gang problem anymore, ridiculous!. It doesn't work that way. So you get rid of private schools, you think the rich won't hire tutors and buy all the latest learning gadgets for their kids to get a leg up on the other kids around them? that's still daddy's money at work. It just isn't surrounded by a building anymore, now you've hidden the situation instead of "fixing" it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start?
    They are not hindered because of Private schools. they are hindered because of Socioeconomics, something Private schools have no bearing on.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard.
    That is the situation anyway, regardless if private schools are around. The rich will alays be able to afford above what is provided. That doesn't magically go away if you ban private schools. Who says the teachers are of a lesser standard? We all have to take the same tests to be a teacher. Some states have stricter requirements than others. I happen to work in California, where the requirements are the strictest in the country.




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    It is the one area of society that should be equal.
    It should but it's not and will never be, even if you ban private schools. it's human nature to compete and those with more resources will always have a better advantage.

    your solution is to take their building away? Silly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)


    Yes I do.
    OK. So you also want to ban the good public schools. Sorry, can't agree with you. Education should strive to rise to the standard set by the best schools, not be crippled to the level of the worst.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)


    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools. Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ). Not which private school you came from. The class system should be taken out of schools. Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability. It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict. How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start? If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard. It is the one area of society that should be equal. That and health care for children. They are our future and all of them should be treated as such.
    Is this for me?
    Its not about you....its about equality for children. A fair education for them. I am sure wealthy privately educated people ( who can afford choice for their children) will be against such an idea . This whole argument for me is about what is fair for children. All of them. What is the fairest and best way to get the most from our brightest minds wherever they are from?.....how many potential Einsteins died with a bullet in the gutter? Their educational opportunities wasted because of where they were born. How much would decent funding in their schools have made a difference? Children should be spared politics, they should all have as equal a start as society can provide. The thing is, I know parents won't see it that way....they want what's best more for their own than anyone else's kids....I just feel children should be thought of collectively. That society should place equal importance in all of them...Private school prevents that. It creates an unfair advantage via money.
    None of that is the fault of the private school. it's how our society is constructed.
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  11. #111  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I am saying that if wealth overtakes ability in placing children straight into advantageous positions over others in life...as private education does in universities, politics, then yes for the greater good of our nations we should forbid it. Your responsibility has nothing to do with it. It should be societies responsibility. We should be providing an equal playing field for all children in our society to prosper. It is unjust and illogical to be placing wealth before ability as we do....It is unfair that politics of the west is becoming once again dominated by wealth over brains. Children are innocent of where they are born ( unless you believe in the hereditary caste system ). We as adults should be providing an equal start for a child's education. We do not. Its all about dads/mums wallet when it comes to schools. We do not make the most of our nations young because we treat them unfairly. The best do not rise to the top if only a select few get the chance.
    I understand what you are saying but that is not the school system, that is THE​ system.
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    Perhaps we ought to look at the proposal from a different angle. One of my functions in my current employment is stress testing the systems by design, perhaps we should take this approach to see what happens if jonio's proposal does goes through.

    If you are one of the families with a certain level of wealth, and the country that you are currently residing in has outlawed private schools entirely. What other options would you consider to provide your children with the best possible education to trump joino's restrictions? Do note that the proposal can only be applied at the local national level, whereas the rest of the world does not. How would this affect the quality of graduates churned out locally, and how would they compete with those from other parts of the world?

    I for one would consider sending my children abroad for the best possible education, and if & when they do come back, they may just (as jonio has said earlier) "dominateing in government, military, business all because their parents we can afford to pay".
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    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools. Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ).


    So you not only want to get rid of private secondary schools you want to also don't want to private colleges which are often applied to by wealthier only because they are more expensive.

    Why do you hate the most successful?
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    "Absolutely not! that was the model for the charter I worked at, "independent study." and what you described is exactly what they do. Everything was online (including the answers) and man were those kids underdeveloped academically! It does not work. Taking the students out of an academic environment and then leaving the choice to learn or not directly up to the student is a bad decision. at least at school, they may accidentally learn something."
    you appear to project your experience as an interpretation of what i say. I didnt say there was no curriculum (established by the teachers/school) or that children alone could pick what not to learn. But thanks for sharing, the points you make are worthy of investigation. thanks
    Last edited by icewendigo; May 2nd, 2014 at 09:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)


    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools. Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ). Not which private school you came from. The class system should be taken out of schools. Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability. It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict. How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start? If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard. It is the one area of society that should be equal. That and health care for children. They are our future and all of them should be treated as such.
    Is this for me?
    Its not about you....its about equality for children. A fair education for them. I am sure wealthy privately educated people ( who can afford choice for their children) will be against such an idea . This whole argument for me is about what is fair for children. All of them. What is the fairest and best way to get the most from our brightest minds wherever they are from?.....how many potential Einsteins died with a bullet in the gutter? Their educational opportunities wasted because of where they were born. How much would decent funding in their schools have made a difference? Children should be spared politics, they should all have as equal a start as society can provide. The thing is, I know parents won't see it that way....they want what's best more for their own than anyone else's kids....I just feel children should be thought of collectively. That society should place equal importance in all of them...Private school prevents that. It creates an unfair advantage via money.
    You make it seem as this is selfish? Obviously the government and society as a whole has thought of the children collectively, otherwise there would be no such thing as a public school system. I simply do not see why you feel that the private school concept influences more of this so called unfairness that society as a whole does. Are you wanting there to only be public grammar schools and community colleges? Or are you hypocritically saying that there should be no private grammar schools but private universities can remain, because the children have grown up? You act is if success is PURELY based on education. Sure, education plays a great role in success but this does not always apply. I understand that you feel it to be unfair for universities to accept applicants due to their parents wealth, however not all universities practice this. You cannot blame the entire educational system based on a few individuals or cases.

    P.S. You did make it about me in the post by starting it with: "So you argue..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "Absolutely not! that was the model for the charter I worked at, "independent study." and what you described is exactly what they do. Everything was online (including the answers) and man were those kids underdeveloped academically! It does not work. Taking the students out of an academic environment and then leaving the choice to learn or not directly up to the student is a bad decision. at least at school, they may accidentally learn something."
    you appear to project your experience as an interpretation of what i say. I didnt say there was no curriculum (established by the teachers/school) or that children alone could pick what not to learn. But thanks for sharing, the points you make are worthy of investigation. thanks
    I never said there was no curriculum. There is curriculum it was developed by the admin. They are work packets that are posted online along with the answers for the parents to "correct" their student's work. But that's seldom what happens, they copy the answer sheets turn them in for full credit and then bomb the tests, and then claim they are bad test takers. I actually had one kid write down for his essay "Answers will vary but should contain at least the following points..." Needless to say he copied directly from the answer sheet.

    Seat time is voluntary, "show up to class if you want. Just so long as you print out at least one page of the curriculum packet and turn it in so the school can show 'proof' to the state that they are enrolled and can collect the ADA $." and here's the kicker, You as a teacher are held accountable when those students score low low test scores because they copied all of the work and didn't show up to a class that they are not mandated to show up for. and then the teachers class averages are blasted all around for everyone to see, as if you had any hand in that kid's poor grades. It's bullshit.
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    Its is quite different from what I have in mind, thanks for providing details. (its sounds like the guy that died throwing himself off the Eiffel tower with wings in the early days of flight, the idea of using wings is one thing, how you implement it is another [at least other people learned from his mistake so its not a complete loss])
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Its is quite different from what I have in mind, thanks for providing details. (its sounds like the guy that died throwing himself off the Eiffel tower with wings in the early days of flight, the idea of using wings is one thing, how you implement it is another [at least other people learned from his mistake so its not a complete loss])
    You can give that credit to my grandfather.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I am not a communist.......lol........it doesn't work....its goes against humans greedy nature...that's why it collapsed...believe me I spent my time in eastern Europe...I know from them why it doesn't work.
    You may not be a communist, but your arguments are fodder for conservatives who accuse liberals of acting like crabs in a barrel. (Crabs in a barrel can’t climb out because they try to elevate themselves by grabbing anything above them, dragging everyone down to their level.)

    Again your anger would be better directed at looking for ways to provide opportunities to those who lack them rather than restricting opportunities that already exist in order to equalize things. It's not just about money. It's about culture and expectations. It's about having an uncle who happens to be a chemical engineer, or an a cousin in law school, or having access to a computer. It's knowing that your grades in high school actually matter because you do have a realistic expectation of affording university, and that it's not all pointless, busy work.

    I can't speak to the education systems in England, but in the US and Canada there are universities (like say Ohio State ) that rank highly in scientific research and other academic fields, but also have an open admissions policy. They will give anyone with a high school degree a chance, but will also gladly take your money and flunk your ass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I live in America as well (Ca.). And tracking students for anything (Specifically on IQ) is quite illegal. as a matter of fact Ca isn't even allowed to administer IQ tests on African Americans. I don't even know outside of Special Education who even conducts IQ test anymore.
    I live in Massachusetts.

    Are you saying that Californian schools put students into classes helter skelter without considering their intelligence? For example, 85 IQs and 115 IQs in the same class.

    To what level do the teachers teach? How do teachers deal with failure at one of the spectrum and boredom at the other end? How do teachers grade?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Are you saying that Californian schools put students into classes helter skelter without considering their intelligence? For example, 85 IQs and 115 IQs in the same class.
    Actually that's a quite normal range for most classrooms and well within any competent teacher's abilities. Likely in just about every public school in every state with the exception of the last couple years of high school.

    To what level do the teachers teach? How do teachers deal with failure at one of the spectrum and boredom at the other end? How do teachers grade?
    Curriculums, lesson plans, test and performance assessments are designed about learning objective achievable by students in that rather normal range--activities can be scaffolded to allow less capable students to achieve those objectives while also challenges the more capable students.

    It's the special education students with low cognitive ability (e.g. <75) and gifted (>130) that are more challenging and take special skills by the teacher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Are you saying that Californian schools put students into classes helter skelter without considering their intelligence? For example, 85 IQs and 115 IQs in the same class.
    Actually that's a quite normal range for most classrooms and well within any competent teacher's abilities. Likely in just about every public school in every state with the exception of the last couple years of high school.

    To what level do the teachers teach? How do teachers deal with failure at one of the spectrum and boredom at the other end? How do teachers grade?
    Curriculums, lesson plans, test and performance assessments are designed about learning objective achievable by students in that rather normal range--activities can be scaffolded to allow less capable students to achieve those objectives while also challenges the more capable students.

    It's the special education students with low cognitive ability (e.g. <75) and gifted (>130) that are more challenging and take special skills by the teacher.
    I didn't pick IQs of 85 and 115 out of the blue — that's a spread of two standard deviations (~2/3 of students)! I guess I'm wrong because different people keep telling me so. Still, I don't know how it works out okay. Apparently instructional scaffolding plays a critical role. Thanks, I'll read up on it.

    ###

    Now, back on the original topic, I just don't see how the government could enforce a law that prohibits private education of some sort. If my child attends public schools, then I can't hire a tutor to provide him with more education? It seems downright un-American to limit someone.

    Would he at least be allowed unlimited access to public libraries because they're "public"? If public libraries are limited access to minors, what would the authorities charge a violator with? Attempting to get a better education?

    It the schools determine that most students don't have access to the National Geographic Channel, the Discovery Channel and the History Channel, then my child can't watch them?

    This topic of limiting someone's education seems utterly unworkable, unless we're living in futuristic "1984" police state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I am not a communist.......lol........it doesn't work....its goes against humans greedy nature...that's why it collapsed...believe me I spent my time in eastern Europe...I know from them why it doesn't work.
    You may not be a communist, but your arguments are fodder for conservatives who accuse liberals of acting like crabs in a barrel. (Crabs in a barrel can’t climb out because they try to elevate themselves by grabbing anything above them, dragging everyone down to their level.)

    Again your anger would be better directed at looking for ways to provide opportunities to those who lack them rather than restricting opportunities that already exist in order to equalize things. It's not just about money. It's about culture and expectations. It's about having an uncle who happens to be a chemical engineer, or an a cousin in law school, or having access to a computer. It's knowing that your grades in high school actually matter because you do have a realistic expectation of affording university, and that it's not all pointless, busy work.

    I can't speak to the education systems in England, but in the US and Canada there are universities (like say Ohio State ) that rank highly in scientific research and other academic fields, but also have an open admissions policy. They will give anyone with a high school degree a chance, but will also gladly take your money and flunk your ass.

    The point of being a crab in a barrel points to one of the main reasons private schools should be banned. The highest standards should be the target for all schools. Individual wealth should not create that standard. It should be the target for all children. Equally. The society should set that standard for all schools. It is wealthy people keeping the crabs in the barrel when it comes to private schooling. Your American dream is just that....my argument is why should children be guilty of their parents Wealth? It should be a level playing field. Should it Not?

    America's Top Colleges Have a Rich-Kid Problem - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic

    Rich kid problem at top universities - Business Insider

    As for conservatives.......what is not conservative about Equality? If I have more money does that mean I should have different laws applied to me? One that means wealth gives my child a much better ( unfair ) chance in Life? Some conservatives in America ( the tea party ) are straight out of 18 th century England. Rupublican values are being lost.
    Last edited by jonio; May 3rd, 2014 at 02:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I live in America as well (Ca.). And tracking students for anything (Specifically on IQ) is quite illegal. as a matter of fact Ca isn't even allowed to administer IQ tests on African Americans. I don't even know outside of Special Education who even conducts IQ test anymore.
    I live in Massachusetts.

    Are you saying that Californian schools put students into classes helter skelter without considering their intelligence? For example, 85 IQs and 115 IQs in the same class.
    For the most part, yes. The students that have high enough grades can request honors classes (actually anyone can request but the students with higher grades get first shot and everyone requesting needs a teacher's letter of rec to get it, a counselor isn't going to put a student in honors if he's a D student.) we do have special ed for students with learning disabilities but the student has to again qualify for it. A full psychological assessment is conducted to see if the student indeed has a learning deficiency, and that's the only place we may see an IQ score (in the psych report), but that's really up to the psychologist who is administering the tests. Most don't use them or throw them in the report for "thoroughness" but nobody uses IQ scores. Nobody does IQ testing as the sole basis for anything anymore. it's basically been ruled obsolete. We haven't used IQ testing in 30 years.
    I just looked it up, It looks like tracking is not illegal in some states but it most certainly is illegal in California

    To what level do the teachers teach?
    All levels, it's called differentiated instruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    How do teachers deal with failure at one of the spectrum and boredom at the other end?
    Skillfully.

    It's all built around differentiated instruction and reteaching and teaching to the students' strengths.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    How do teachers grade?
    Like normal. A,B,C,D,F scale. Rubrics are all the fad in English right now. But the special ed students get certain accommodation/modifications agreed upon by an IEP (Individual Education Plan) team (usually the parent, teacher, Admin, the student and sometimes an advocate make up the team) Those students, while sometimes are mainstreamed into a general ed classes, are still entitled to the accommodations regardless if they are in a special education setting. So the general ed teacher must grade them based on what the IEP says.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)

    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools.
    It's not like this in America. NCLB withholds funds if the school does poorly (Thanks Bush)



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ).
    That is how it is in America sort of. there is a basic educational requirement that must be met, then daddy's money comes into play because the tuition fees are stupid large. but you don't automatically get into universities cause daddy's rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    The class system should be taken out of schools.
    that is impossible. it will always be there. you obviously missed my post where I said there is a full on class system at public school.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability.
    No they don't. Private schools have nothing to do with public schools. there is no competition between the two. Private schools take NOTHING away from public schools.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict.
    That is NOT created by private schools. The classes are already divided whether the sit next to each other in the same class or not. You seem to be under the impression that if we get rid of a symptom we cure the disease. So, lets ban sagging pants so we won't have a gang problem anymore, ridiculous!. It doesn't work that way. So you get rid of private schools, you think the rich won't hire tutors and buy all the latest learning gadgets for their kids to get a leg up on the other kids around them? that's still daddy's money at work. It just isn't surrounded by a building anymore, now you've hidden the situation instead of "fixing" it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start?
    They are not hindered because of Private schools. they are hindered because of Socioeconomics, something Private schools have no bearing on.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard.
    That is the situation anyway, regardless if private schools are around. The rich will alays be able to afford above what is provided. That doesn't magically go away if you ban private schools. Who says the teachers are of a lesser standard? We all have to take the same tests to be a teacher. Some states have stricter requirements than others. I happen to work in California, where the requirements are the strictest in the country.




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    It is the one area of society that should be equal.
    It should but it's not and will never be, even if you ban private schools. it's human nature to compete and those with more resources will always have a better advantage.

    your solution is to take their building away? Silly.


    That fact that you are alive should be proof enough that things are not impossible ( although I agree, to do what I am suggesting is close to impossible considering human nature ).Your entire system stems from the imagination of humans through the ages. Your idea of competition is based in wealth and you feel that can't change. That's fine but its wrong. Its your mindset that seems to be stuck with the idea that what is now will always be. There are state schools in the U.k that do fantastically well ( we have performance based schools ) , sadly wealthy people try all they can ( buying up the surrounding houses ) to get their kids into them. This can also be stopped if all the other schools are pushed to their same levels. Private schools seem to jump over many of these hurdles because of daddy wealth. They create a class of privately educated children who's purpose of existence is because they are far better than state schools ( whether true or not ) . They fill up the places in the best universities because their parents wealth gives them an advantage over most of the state schools. This system is unfair to all those children who's families do not have the same wealth. The more expensive the school the more it guarantees a place in a top university. They create an elite class based upon wealth not brains. Who knows how much further advanced our societies would be if all the little Einsteins out there had had an equal start? One where abilities override wealth...

    Also research yourself how rich privately educated students dominate your top universities. There's nothing fair about your school system....its a tea party myth.
    Last edited by jonio; May 3rd, 2014 at 03:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Now, back on the original topic, I just don't see how the government could enforce a law that prohibits private education of some sort. If my child attends public schools, then I can't hire a tutor to provide him with more education? It seems downright un-American to limit someone.
    I think Everone understands this at this point except Jonio.
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  27. #127  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    The point of being a crab in a barrel points to one of the main reasons private schools should be banned. The highest standards should be the target for all schools. Individual wealth should not create that standard. It should be the target for all children. Equally. The society should set that standard for all schools. It is wealthy people keeping the crabs in the barrel when it comes to private schooling. Your American dream is just that....my argument is why should children be guilty of their parents Wealth? It should be a level playing field. Should it Not?

    America's Top Colleges Have a Rich-Kid Problem - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic

    Rich kid problem at top universities - Business Insider

    As for conservatives.......what is not conservative about Equality? If I have more money does that mean I should have different laws applied to me? One that means wealth gives my child a much better ( unfair ) chance in Life? Some conservatives in America ( the tea party ) are straight out of 18 th century England. Rupublican values are being lost.
    you have been given the answer many times over... are you ignoring it?
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  28. #128  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)

    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools.
    It's not like this in America. NCLB withholds funds if the school does poorly (Thanks Bush)



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ).
    That is how it is in America sort of. there is a basic educational requirement that must be met, then daddy's money comes into play because the tuition fees are stupid large. but you don't automatically get into universities cause daddy's rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    The class system should be taken out of schools.
    that is impossible. it will always be there. you obviously missed my post where I said there is a full on class system at public school.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability.
    No they don't. Private schools have nothing to do with public schools. there is no competition between the two. Private schools take NOTHING away from public schools.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict.
    That is NOT created by private schools. The classes are already divided whether the sit next to each other in the same class or not. You seem to be under the impression that if we get rid of a symptom we cure the disease. So, lets ban sagging pants so we won't have a gang problem anymore, ridiculous!. It doesn't work that way. So you get rid of private schools, you think the rich won't hire tutors and buy all the latest learning gadgets for their kids to get a leg up on the other kids around them? that's still daddy's money at work. It just isn't surrounded by a building anymore, now you've hidden the situation instead of "fixing" it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start?
    They are not hindered because of Private schools. they are hindered because of Socioeconomics, something Private schools have no bearing on.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard.
    That is the situation anyway, regardless if private schools are around. The rich will alays be able to afford above what is provided. That doesn't magically go away if you ban private schools. Who says the teachers are of a lesser standard? We all have to take the same tests to be a teacher. Some states have stricter requirements than others. I happen to work in California, where the requirements are the strictest in the country.




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    It is the one area of society that should be equal.
    It should but it's not and will never be, even if you ban private schools. it's human nature to compete and those with more resources will always have a better advantage.

    your solution is to take their building away? Silly.


    That fact that you are alive should be proof enough that things are not impossible ( although I agree to do what I am suggesting is close to impossible considering human nature ).Your entire system stems from the imagination of humans through the ages. Your idea of competition is based in wealth and you feel that can't change. That's fine but its wrong. Its your mindset that seems to be stuck with the idea that what is now will always be. There are state schools in the U.k that do fantastically well ( we have performance based schools ) , sadly wealthy people try all they can ( buying up the surrounding houses ) to get their kids into them. This can also be stopped if all the other schools are pushed to their same levels. Private schools seem to jump over many of these hurdles because of daddy wealth. They create a class of privately educated children who's purpose of existence is because they are far better than state schools ( whether true or not ) . They fill up the places in the best universities because their parents wealth gives them an advantage over most of the state schools. This system is unfair to all those children who's families do not have the same wealth. The more expensive the school the more it guarantees a place in a top university. They create an elite class based upon wealth not brains. Who knows how much further advanced our societies would be if all the little Einsteins out there had had an equal start? One where abilities override wealth...

    Also research yourself how rich privately educated students dominate your top universities. There's nothing fair about your school system....its a tea party myth.
    They will have an unfair advantage because of daddy's wealth anyway. unless you really are advocating what I accused JrMonroe of crazy land talk.
    I didn't say it couldn't change. but it's not going to happen over night with a quick fix, like you seem to be suggesting. it has to come from the people and you certainly can't force it.
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  29. #129  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)

    I agree:-)


    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools.
    It's not like this in America. NCLB withholds funds if the school does poorly (Thanks Bush)



    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ).
    That is how it is in America sort of. there is a basic educational requirement that must be met, then daddy's money comes into play because the tuition fees are stupid large. but you don't automatically get into universities cause daddy's rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    The class system should be taken out of schools.
    that is impossible. it will always be there. you obviously missed my post where I said there is a full on class system at public school.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability.
    No they don't. Private schools have nothing to do with public schools. there is no competition between the two. Private schools take NOTHING away from public schools.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict.
    That is NOT created by private schools. The classes are already divided whether the sit next to each other in the same class or not. You seem to be under the impression that if we get rid of a symptom we cure the disease. So, lets ban sagging pants so we won't have a gang problem anymore, ridiculous!. It doesn't work that way. So you get rid of private schools, you think the rich won't hire tutors and buy all the latest learning gadgets for their kids to get a leg up on the other kids around them? that's still daddy's money at work. It just isn't surrounded by a building anymore, now you've hidden the situation instead of "fixing" it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start?
    They are not hindered because of Private schools. they are hindered because of Socioeconomics, something Private schools have no bearing on.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard.
    That is the situation anyway, regardless if private schools are around. The rich will alays be able to afford above what is provided. That doesn't magically go away if you ban private schools. Who says the teachers are of a lesser standard? We all have to take the same tests to be a teacher. Some states have stricter requirements than others. I happen to work in California, where the requirements are the strictest in the country.




    Quote Originally Posted by jonio
    It is the one area of society that should be equal.
    It should but it's not and will never be, even if you ban private schools. it's human nature to compete and those with more resources will always have a better advantage.

    your solution is to take their building away? Silly.


    That fact that you are alive should be proof enough that things are not impossible ( although I agree to do what I am suggesting is close to impossible considering human nature ).Your entire system stems from the imagination of humans through the ages. Your idea of competition is based in wealth and you feel that can't change. That's fine but its wrong. Its your mindset that seems to be stuck with the idea that what is now will always be. There are state schools in the U.k that do fantastically well ( we have performance based schools ) , sadly wealthy people try all they can ( buying up the surrounding houses ) to get their kids into them. This can also be stopped if all the other schools are pushed to their same levels. Private schools seem to jump over many of these hurdles because of daddy wealth. They create a class of privately educated children who's purpose of existence is because they are far better than state schools ( whether true or not ) . They fill up the places in the best universities because their parents wealth gives them an advantage over most of the state schools. This system is unfair to all those children who's families do not have the same wealth. The more expensive the school the more it guarantees a place in a top university. They create an elite class based upon wealth not brains. Who knows how much further advanced our societies would be if all the little Einsteins out there had had an equal start? One where abilities override wealth...

    Also research yourself how rich privately educated students dominate your top universities. There's nothing fair about your school system....its a tea party myth.
    They will have an unfair advantage because of daddy's wealth anyway. unless you really are advocating what I accused JrMonroe of crazy land talk.
    I didn't say it couldn't change. but it's not going to happen over night with a quick fix, like you seem to be suggesting. it has to come from the people and you certainly can't force it.

    I agree:-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Now, back on the original topic, I just don't see how the government could enforce a law that prohibits private education of some sort. If my child attends public schools, then I can't hire a tutor to provide him with more education? It seems downright un-American to limit someone.
    I think Everone understands this at this point except Jonio.

    I do understand this point....my point is private education limits our children.....well most of them!

    After school tuition has nothing to do with my point...if a child needs extra help, then he needs extra help...my point is that the school system needs to be equal by design. If a child needs after school tuition, it would probably mean he/she is behind compared to other children....that's fine....it won't mean he/she she will have an unfair advantage because of daddy money....children can teach themselves via the internet to catch up and do....other children don't need the extra help. Ideally all schools should be accounting for such differences in children and helping them towards such goals...Afterschool classes could be one of them. The state could provide this help so as you don't have to pay privately for it.

    All children should be given the best education we as a society can provide...your point about personal parents choice is governed by what you can afford...that is totally unfair to a child who has no control over the wealth of his/her parents...This is my whole point....If that's anti American then your should look at the values you think you are upholding.
    Last edited by jonio; May 3rd, 2014 at 04:29 AM.
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    Jonie, you really think your proposal is consistent with American values? Where you not only are obstructing parent responsibilities to educate their children, but would actually make it illegal? Are you kidding?

    Furthermore your idea that even banning private schools would somehow improve public schools is pure fantasy with no basis in fact or historical precedent. It's the sort of fuzzy headed logic that Moa used when he removed food from farmers, got rid of private farms and in a couple years killed millions by starvation. You also haven't' connected private secondary schools with the reason for acceptance into ivy league schools--you'll find it's not as much about the school they left (which really wasn't better than the public anyhow--a fact you keep ignoring), but the connections the wealthier parents had to their civil, business and academic communities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Jonie, you really think your proposal is consistent with American values? Where you not only are obstructing parent responsibilities to educate their children, but would actually make it illegal? Are you kidding?

    Furthermore your idea that even banning private schools would somehow improve public schools is pure fantasy with no basis in fact or historical precedent. It's the sort of fuzzy headed logic that Moa used when he removed food from farmers, got rid of private farms and in a couple years killed millions by starvation. You also haven't' connected private secondary schools with the reason for acceptance into ivy league schools--you'll find it's not as much about the school they left (which really wasn't better than the public anyhow--a fact you keep ignoring), but the connections the wealthier parents had to their civil, business and academic communities.
    Collective farming from mao and Stalin has nothing to do with banning private schools. Private schooling ( you can research ) , gets you into the best Universities because your parents can afford to pay for you to go into the best private schools. Therefore it is money that buys you the seat in the best universities...yes there are placements for poor students based upon superior marks but if you look at the stats..its woeful. This is denying American and British economies of their best minds. Best minds seem to = the most money....Yes connections are very important but poor children have absolutely little chance of making any. You make these connections through the Universities and your talents. If money buys you those connections rather than talent then that is totally unfair. You can't bring in Russian schools or Chinese into this argument because they have produce fantastic results...although they are now become more like yours. The system of communism fails after school and you have no argument against that. Russians were up with you in the space race....they have produced fantastic minds. George bush snr, George bush jrn is Americas fair and free system. Your politics like ours is dominated by wealthy privately educated kids. Nearly all the leaders are college-educated with almost half having advanced degrees. About 54 percent of the big-business leaders and 42% of the government elite are graduates of just 12 prestigious universities with large endowments.

    I cannot go more into this debate because all anyone states is that its unfair on a parents choice....You have a class system in America as bad as the one in the U.k. The American dream is a myth. You have been brainwashed so much from birth to be anti communist that anyone points out how unfair the school system is to all children ( for and against ) and why it is, he's thought of as a mao or Stalin or communist.....Oneday as in France and in Russia you will learn what happens when you allow a system to become so unfair....your streets will start burning. Daddy wealth should not buy positions....ability should....private schools do not allow for that...they keep it all for the minority.
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  33. #133  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Jonie, you really think your proposal is consistent with American values? Where you not only are obstructing parent responsibilities to educate their children, but would actually make it illegal? Are you kidding?

    Furthermore your idea that even banning private schools would somehow improve public schools is pure fantasy with no basis in fact or historical precedent. It's the sort of fuzzy headed logic that Moa used when he removed food from farmers, got rid of private farms and in a couple years killed millions by starvation. You also haven't' connected private secondary schools with the reason for acceptance into ivy league schools--you'll find it's not as much about the school they left (which really wasn't better than the public anyhow--a fact you keep ignoring), but the connections the wealthier parents had to their civil, business and academic communities.
    Collective farming from mao and Stalin has nothing to do with banning private schools. Private schooling ( you can research ) , gets you into the best Universities because your parents can afford to pay for you to go into the best private schools. Therefore it is money that buys you the seat in the best universities...yes there are placements for poor students based upon superior marks but if you look at the stats..its woeful. This is denying American and British economies of their best minds. Best minds seem to = the most money....Yes connections are very important but poor children have absolutely little chance of making any. You make these connections through the Universities and your talents. If money buys you those connections rather than talent then that is totally unfair. You can't bring in Russian schools or Chinese into this argument because they have produce fantastic results...although they are now become more like yours. The system of communism fails after school and you have no argument against that. Russians were up with you in the space race....they have produced fantastic minds. George bush snr, George bush jrn is Americas fair and free system. Your politics like ours is dominated by wealthy privately educated kids. Nearly all the leaders are college-educated with almost half having advanced degrees. About 54 percent of the big-business leaders and 42% of the government elite are graduates of just 12 prestigious universities with large endowments.

    I cannot go more into this debate because all anyone states is that its unfair on a parents choice....You have a class system in America as bad as the one in the U.k. The American dream is a myth. You have been brainwashed so much from birth to be anti communist that anyone points out how unfair the school system is to all children ( for and against ) and why it is, he's thought of as a mao or Stalin or communist.....Oneday as in France and in Russia you will learn what happens when you allow a system to become so unfair....your streets will start burning. Daddy wealth should not buy positions....ability should....private schools do not allow for that...they keep it all for the minority.
    Jonio, what proportion of the graduates from the best universities actually come from private schools? They way you talk anyone would think it is 100%.

    Two other aspects you do not mention, which have just as much influence on success as the choice of school, are heredity and parental upbringing. Both of these factors also tend to make it more likely that children of educated and successful parents will be able to repeat the trick. Academic aptitude is almost certainly inherited just as other traits are. And parental upbringing - the presence of books in the home, discussion round the dinner table, etc, have a massive influence on a child's priorities, whether they go to a state school or a private one. So do not imagine for an instant that if private education were to be done away with, everything would be "fair". It's a beautiful aspiration to make everything "fair" but it cannot be done in a free society, even if we could agree about what "fairness" consists of, which we can't.

    I really think your energy would be better directed to the ways in which we can improve the quality of state schools. Things such as partnerships with private schools, encouraging teachers to put their star pupils forward to the best universities (some of them actually avoid doing so for reasons of class prejudice, can you believe it?), refusing to allow pupils to select crap subjects for their A levels just so the school can book more A grades, and so on.
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  34. #134  
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    I may be wrong, but here (in the UK), entry policies to top universities (Oxford, Cambridge etc) actually look favorably on people educated at state schools.
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  35. #135  
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    Jonio,
    Private schools have NO bearing on public schools. Banning private schools would do NOTHING to help achieve your stated goal of educational equality.
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    Even if all of what jonio has said is true (and I'm not saying that it is true), there's nothing preventing families who are able to send their children abroad for private education in doing so should private schools at your local level be outlawed. Its basically back to square one if and when these students come back from abroad. Plus, while this proposal seeks to level the educational playing field for students who aren't able to travel abroad, somehow I suspect they would be out competed by those from other countries who aren't as restricted.
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  37. #137  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post

    Collective farming from mao and Stalin has nothing to do with banning private schools.
    It's the same broken philosophy in the name of "fairness."

    Private schooling ( you can research ) , gets you into the best Universities because your parents can afford to pay for you to go into the best private schools.
    Then why aren't you bothering to show data about the subject?

    Where is your data that shows private universities prefer to draw from private secondary school graduates? I've been accepted and attended seven different colleges/universities, two of which were private....not one had a preference for private school over public school as part of their attendance policies. Sure some were more expensive and ultimately cost is what drove me to Penn State rather than MIT--but what counted wasn't where I'd gone to school...but how I'd performed in my past schools, how I performed on test, and interviews, and what I'd done (jobs and other activities). (my first college was a private school....I got in as a high school drop out because everything else rocked).

    So please show us even ONE post secondary school where coming from a private secondary school is given preference. Just ONE.
    --

    I completely agree with your concerns about class in America--but you are barking up the wrong tree. You should be working to improving education for impoverished families and removing systemic barriers such as entire communities unable to get educational aid because they did a trivial crime years before, or health care is difficult to obtain for pregnant mothers, or to identify and help with early childhood developmental problems, or parent teaching for mother's who themselves were raised in broken homes so they don't simply follow their only bad example etc.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; May 3rd, 2014 at 10:18 PM.
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  38. #138  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    After school tuition has nothing to do with my point...if a child needs extra help, then he needs extra help...my point is that the school system needs to be equal by design. If a child needs after school tuition, it would probably mean he/she is behind compared to other children....that's fine....it won't mean he/she she will have an unfair advantage because of daddy money....
    So rich kids get extra help and poor kids are denied it?
    children can teach themselves via the internet to catch up and do...
    An excellent argument against banning private schools. Public school kids can just teach themselves via the Internet and catch up.
    All children should be given the best education we as a society can provide...your point about personal parents choice is governed by what you can afford...that is totally unfair to a child who has no control over the wealth of his/her parents...This is my whole point....
    I definitely agree that all children should be given the best education we can provide. We do that by making all schools as good as the best schools, not by banning the best schools.

    To put it another way (and to paraphrase) you see an excellent private school and think "no one should be allowed to get an education like that." I see such an excellent school and think "every child should get an education like that."
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I believe that all children should have an equal education. This should have nothing to do with how rich their parents are or the area where they grow up. This I suppose is a socialist view point or though I feel it is more about true equality. I feel the choice of being private or state damages the poorest children of all nations. Why should children be condemned by the lack of wealth of their parents? Are they not Innocent? Private Schools seem to create elite classes based upon wealth and not upon intelligence. This can only damage society as a whole ( I feel ). For myself all children are our future and they shouldn't be unfairly treated from the word go. Could this be Possible? Is it not Fair? Why would not allowing private Schools be a bad Thing?
    How does helping one person harm another? If something is good, then it is good. If it is good for people to increase in knowledge, then it is good to increase peoples knowledge and bad to restrict it. But not increasing someone's knowledge is not restricting them from increasing in knowledge. Not everyone can afford private schools, but if private schools are accepted to be better, ditching private schools hurts human advancement and is the most anti-humanistic thing you could do. Instead, we should ask how can we get more children into private school?

    An example. Starvation is bad. Ending starvation is good. If I have a hundred people, and only enough food for ten, I don't throw away all my food because I can't feed everyone.

    Your proposals hurts all children by taking the best food and restricting everyone's access to it. Helping one person does not mean dragging other people down.
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  40. #140  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    After school tuition has nothing to do with my point...if a child needs extra help, then he needs extra help...my point is that the school system needs to be equal by design. If a child needs after school tuition, it would probably mean he/she is behind compared to other children....that's fine....it won't mean he/she she will have an unfair advantage because of daddy money....
    So rich kids get extra help and poor kids are denied it?
    children can teach themselves via the internet to catch up and do...
    An excellent argument against banning private schools. Public school kids can just teach themselves via the Internet and catch up.
    All children should be given the best education we as a society can provide...your point about personal parents choice is governed by what you can afford...that is totally unfair to a child who has no control over the wealth of his/her parents...This is my whole point....
    I definitely agree that all children should be given the best education we can provide. We do that by making all schools as good as the best schools, not by banning the best schools.

    To put it another way (and to paraphrase) you see an excellent private school and think "no one should be allowed to get an education like that." I see such an excellent school and think "every child should get an education like that."
    I don't think that is achievable without stopping private schools. Students from wealthy backgrounds dominate all the best universities. It is much harder for intelligent poor students to go to them. There is help but still nowhere near enough. It will always be this way if daddy wealth can buy education. The stats are out there for all to see.What I am suggesting is nearly impossible but not impossible. The rich would be terrified to have their children mix with the poor. So private schools are really about class. If we raise the standard of all schools to be the equal of the best then there would be no need to go private. That's not going to happen because the wealthy elite won't let it. It will always be their children who have that advantage. There is nepotism on the rise in America and also Britain. Private education breeds it. Please everyone do your research. Also remember we in the middle allow it to happen by sleepwalking.

    BBC News - Private school influence in public life 'shocking' says Major

    Private school pupils monopolising top university places - Telegraph

    Elite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Your presidents send their kids to private schools. Private schools create an elite. One not based on equality of minds but on the in-equality of wealth.
    Last edited by jonio; May 4th, 2014 at 04:46 AM.
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  41. #141  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    After school tuition has nothing to do with my point...if a child needs extra help, then he needs extra help...my point is that the school system needs to be equal by design. If a child needs after school tuition, it would probably mean he/she is behind compared to other children....that's fine....it won't mean he/she she will have an unfair advantage because of daddy money....
    So rich kids get extra help and poor kids are denied it?
    children can teach themselves via the internet to catch up and do...
    An excellent argument against banning private schools. Public school kids can just teach themselves via the Internet and catch up.
    All children should be given the best education we as a society can provide...your point about personal parents choice is governed by what you can afford...that is totally unfair to a child who has no control over the wealth of his/her parents...This is my whole point....
    I definitely agree that all children should be given the best education we can provide. We do that by making all schools as good as the best schools, not by banning the best schools.

    To put it another way (and to paraphrase) you see an excellent private school and think "no one should be allowed to get an education like that." I see such an excellent school and think "every child should get an education like that."
    I don't think that is a achievable without stopping private schools. Students from wealthy backgrounds dominate all the best universities. It is much harder for intelligent poor students to go to them. There is help but still nowhere near enough. It will always be this way if daddy wealth can buy education. The stats are out there for all to see.What I am suggesting is nearly impossible but not impossible. The rich would be terrified to have their children mix with the poor. So private schools are really about class. If we raise the standard of all schools to be the equal of the best then there would be no need to go private. That's not going to happen because the wealthy elite won't let it. It will always be their children who have that advantage. There is nepotism on the rise in America and also Britain. Private education breeds it. Please everyone do your research. Also remember we in the middle allow it to happen by sleepwalking.

    BBC News - Private school influence in public life 'shocking' says Major

    Private school pupils monopolising top university places - Telegraph

    Elite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Your presidents send their kids to private schools. Private schools create an elite. One not based on equality of minds but on the in-equality of wealth.
    If it is that easy to just raise the quality of public schools to match private schools, then just do it. If it is possible for public schools to match the quality of private schools, then there is absolutely zero reason to abolish them because private schools no longer have an advantage. The rich can still have their private schools so there won't be mixing of the economic classes. Their children can still go somewhere selective, but both options will impart the same knowledge. Otherwise, you are deliberately setting humanity back and deliberately increasing overall ignorance in the human race. If public schools can be as good at imparting education as private, your proposition has no purpose. If private schools are inherently better than public, abolishing private schools directly attacks knowledge. Reducing the knowledge of the one on top to make him more equal to the one on bottom has the result of more overall ignorance. If you want to increase ignorance in favor of equality, okay, but understand what you are doing. You are becoming an enemy of knowledge and increasing ignorance for the sake of equality and removing some of the advantages of being rich. Is that worth it? Is lowering the average knowledge of humanity worth it for the sake of pushing outliars closer to the middle?
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  42. #142  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    After school tuition has nothing to do with my point...if a child needs extra help, then he needs extra help...my point is that the school system needs to be equal by design. If a child needs after school tuition, it would probably mean he/she is behind compared to other children....that's fine....it won't mean he/she she will have an unfair advantage because of daddy money....
    So rich kids get extra help and poor kids are denied it?
    children can teach themselves via the internet to catch up and do...
    An excellent argument against banning private schools. Public school kids can just teach themselves via the Internet and catch up.
    All children should be given the best education we as a society can provide...your point about personal parents choice is governed by what you can afford...that is totally unfair to a child who has no control over the wealth of his/her parents...This is my whole point....
    I definitely agree that all children should be given the best education we can provide. We do that by making all schools as good as the best schools, not by banning the best schools.

    To put it another way (and to paraphrase) you see an excellent private school and think "no one should be allowed to get an education like that." I see such an excellent school and think "every child should get an education like that."
    I don't think that is a achievable without stopping private schools. Students from wealthy backgrounds dominate all the best universities. It is much harder for intelligent poor students to go to them. There is help but still nowhere near enough. It will always be this way if daddy wealth can buy education. The stats are out there for all to see.What I am suggesting is nearly impossible but not impossible. The rich would be terrified to have their children mix with the poor. So private schools are really about class. If we raise the standard of all schools to be the equal of the best then there would be no need to go private. That's not going to happen because the wealthy elite won't let it. It will always be their children who have that advantage. There is nepotism on the rise in America and also Britain. Private education breeds it. Please everyone do your research. Also remember we in the middle allow it to happen by sleepwalking.

    BBC News - Private school influence in public life 'shocking' says Major

    Private school pupils monopolising top university places - Telegraph

    Elite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Your presidents send their kids to private schools. Private schools create an elite. One not based on equality of minds but on the in-equality of wealth.
    If it is that easy to just raise the quality of public schools to match private schools, then just do it. If it is possible for public schools to match the quality of private schools, then there is absolutely zero reason to abolish them because private schools no longer have an advantage. The rich can still have their private schools so there won't be mixing of the economic classes. Their children can still go somewhere selective, but both options will impart the same knowledge. Otherwise, you are deliberately setting humanity back and deliberately increasing overall ignorance in the human race. If public schools can be as good at imparting education as private, your proposition has no purpose. If private schools are inherently better than public, abolishing private schools directly attacks knowledge. Reducing the knowledge of the one on top to make him more equal to the one on bottom has the result of more overall ignorance. If you want to increase ignorance in favor of equality, okay, but understand what you are doing. You are becoming an enemy of knowledge and increasing ignorance for the sake of equality and removing some of the advantages of being rich. Is that worth it? Is lowering the average knowledge of humanity worth it for the sake of pushing outliars closer to the middle?

    Who's talking about lowering the average knowledge of Humanity? I think private schooling does just that. The ruling elite that is hugely privately educated makes decisions over the rest of the nations people. What understanding of others backgrounds and how each others lives are, do they have, if they are segregated from the word Go based on wealth? I think posh private school student are being brought up with a lack of social knowledge and then have a completely unfair advantage over those (possibly more intelligent) students that are denied the same schooling opportunities because their dad or mum do not have the funds. Their local council do not have the funds. So in the end George Bush jnr , snr end up in control. Making decisions for people who's lives they know nothing of. If these people had an opportunity to mix at school maybe their decisions would be based more on what is fair for all. It is the ideology of private education on our young that makes me feel they should be banned. Children are blank minds. We are printing a political ideology on them from the very moment they start. Schools should be equal and free of such practices. That can wait for when they leave school.
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  43. #143  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    The ruling elite that is hugely privately educated makes decisions over the rest of the nations people. What understanding of others backgrounds and how each others lives are, do they have, if they are segregated from the word Go based on wealth?
    Wouldn't the simplest solution be to NOT vote for, work for, and employ them, rather than abolish private schools?

    And I hate to sound boorish, but you still have not responded to at least one of the loopholes I've mentioned. In that, even if your country abolishes and outlaws private educational institutions,


    1. What means besides restricting more personal freedoms are you planning on enacting when families send their children abroad for the type of education that they aren't now able to get locally?
    2. What happens when these students now turned working adults come back home and filling the positions that you had intended to deny them in the first place?
    3. What is your plan for leveling the employment playing field when abroad-(privately?)-educated job applicants out-compete those educated locally because a possible prevailing perspective that they are still somehow better qualified (with a possibility that they really are)?
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  44. #144  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    The ruling elite that is hugely privately educated makes decisions over the rest of the nations people. What understanding of others backgrounds and how each others lives are, do they have, if they are segregated from the word Go based on wealth?
    Wouldn't the simplest solution be to NOT vote for, work for, and employ them, rather than abolish private schools?



    And I hate to sound boorish, but you still have not responded to at least one of the loopholes I've mentioned. In that, even if your country abolishes and outlaws private educational institutions,


    1. What means besides restricting more personal freedoms are you planning on enacting when families send their children abroad for the type of education that they aren't now able to get locally?
    2. What happens when these students now turned working adults come back home and filling the positions that you had intended to deny them in the first place?
    3. What is your plan for leveling the employment playing field when abroad-(privately?)-educated job applicants out-compete those educated locally because a possible prevailing perspective that they are still somehow better qualified (with a possibility that they really are)?
    Your point is that if you abolished private schools then all the state schools would be worse. Therefore rich people would leave the country and goto rich better private schools. In England rich people buy up the houses around the catchment area of the best FREE state schools. I am not at all talking about making the school systems worse causing rich people to send their kids abroad. My point has nothing to do with school standards. If a parent wanted to take his child off to an international school abroad then ok. I hope they wouldn't because our school system would be of the higest standard. One where brains comes before wealth. One were educational rights were equal. One where the brightest minds reach their potential. That would be better for the country as a whole. If there were no private schools then everyone would have to put much more commitment into state schools. You would raise the abilities of the country as a whole. Private schools simply buy their place at the top. Buy their positions in government. Create an unjust elite that is separated from the rest of the country.

    Your argument is based on state schools dragging everyone down to their poor lvl......I think the opposite. Raising all education to the same equal top standards. What defines a great School?
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    I went to a private Parochial School for 8 years.

    My parents could ILL afford it but being deeply religious and Catholic at that time....(they later became ordained Pentecostal AOG ministers) felt they rather give everything up than have me go to public school.

    I went to prison for 8 years. I then rebelled and went to public for 4 years.

    My 8 years taught me study skills.

    My 4 years gave me the arts to do what I wanted.

    Do I regret the 8 years?

    Not really. A learning curve.

    I toured performing most of my high school years and graduated a semester early although I could have the end of my junior year and attended the JC as an AP student and earned college units my last two years of High School also.

    My parents SACRIFICED for what they thought would be a high education.


    My kids went to public schools. We have GREAT public schools. Parents PARTICIPATE and take RESPONSIBILITY for the curriculum.

    I would NEVER advocate Private Schools not being allowed.

    It is a PARENTS CHOICE...and frankly....

    my niece and nephew were in a very exclusive private school......and after my BIL died...they moved up north......where they wound up in a PUBLIC SCHOOL and they were TWO YEARS behind in math.

    Never think that just cause it is private it is excellent.

    Never think that just cause it is public it isn't.
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  46. #146  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Your point is that if you abolished private schools then all the state schools would be worse. Therefore rich people would leave the country and goto rich better private schools.
    Sigh. How much of what I've said did you actually pick up?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    In England rich people buy up the houses around the catchment area of the best FREE state schools.
    Perhaps I've misread what you have been saying all along, or you haven't been clear in your message.

    Doesn't this contradict your position? On one hand, you seem to be implying that the wealthy have or will likely send their children to private schools where they receive "better quality education" and later dominate the political/business/military scene, and on the other hand, now they are not doing that by sending their children to state schools? Please clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I am not at all talking about making the school systems worse causing rich people to send their kids abroad. My point has nothing to do with school standards.
    Neither you nor I are saying that.

    Relating to my question #1 to #3 - What I'm asking is, should these "wealthy families" (based on what I have understood from your posts so far) decide not to have their children enroll locally because of the now absent private schools with the perspective that their child will receive a subjectively better private-education elsewhere (most likely abroad), and in accordance to your earlier post where you've said that it is these people that dominate many aspects of society in the positions that they hold, come back from abroad and occupying these positions again simply because they went to some prestigious school (abroad); it literally means even if you implement this proposal of yours, you are now back to square one.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    If a parent wanted to take his child off to an international school abroad then ok. I hope they wouldn't because our school system would be of the higest standard.
    How do you figure with the abolishment of private schools nationwide, the state school system being the only system that exists now, be of the highest standard? You aren't able to make any form of comparison if there's only one system with nothing to compare it with.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    One where brains comes before wealth. One were educational rights were equal. One where the brightest minds reach their potential. That would be better for the country as a whole. If there were no private schools then everyone would have to put much more commitment into state schools. You would raise the abilities of the country as a whole. Private schools simply buy their place at the top. Buy their positions in government. Create an unjust elite that is separated from the rest of the country.
    Sigh, the above quote is one example where you appear to be contradicting what you have said earlier; in that "In England rich people buy up the houses around the catchment area of the best FREE state schools.". You either have to make up your mind, or clarify exactly what it is you want to say about the private-state school enrollment habits of the wealthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Your argument is based on state schools dragging everyone down to their poor lvl......I think the opposite. Raising all education to the same equal top standards.
    I have made no arguments, however, I did raise a couple of points based on your earlier claim that the wealthy prefers private school education for their children, which is the opposite of what you are now saying that they prefer "the best FREE state schools". If you actually took the time to read my posts from #112 onwards, I'm attempting to identify loopholes in your idea, and how events may not pan out the way you think they will.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    What defines a great School?
    Quality educators, robust learning materials, and an environment conducive for knowledge absorption and the learning social skills, and at times the level of disciplinary action for wayward students.
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  47. #147  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post

    Collective farming from mao and Stalin has nothing to do with banning private schools. Private schooling ( you can research ) , gets you into the best Universities because your parents can afford to pay for you to go into the best private schools. Therefore it is money that buys you the seat in the best universities...yes there are placements for poor students based upon superior marks but if you look at the stats..its woeful. This is denying American and British economies of their best minds. Best minds seem to = the most money....Yes connections are very important but poor children have absolutely little chance of making any. You make these connections through the Universities and your talents. If money buys you those connections rather than talent then that is totally unfair.

    The gaining of connections is unfair.

    However the other part "best minds = most money" is in fact true. The reason its true is because better educated minds are better minds. They may not have started out better, but after they got educated they became better.

    Society needs all the competency it can get. Otherwise the economy will tank and we won't be able to afford to educate anyone.


    I cannot go more into this debate because all anyone states is that its unfair on a parents choice....You have a class system in America as bad as the one in the U.k. The American dream is a myth. You have been brainwashed so much from birth to be anti communist that anyone points out how unfair the school system is to all children ( for and against ) and why it is, he's thought of as a mao or Stalin or communist.....Oneday as in France and in Russia you will learn what happens when you allow a system to become so unfair....your streets will start burning. Daddy wealth should not buy positions....ability should....private schools do not allow for that...they keep it all for the minority.
    Parent's choice isn't the issue.

    Maximizing competency is the issue. Cut out private schools and the pool of competency will be reduced.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post

    Money doesn't buy natural ability...it only buys an unfair advantage.
    By "unfair advantage" I think you mean "unfairly greater ability to contribute to society."

    By your logic, all beautiful women should have surgery to uglify them. All smart people should have brain surgery to reduce their intelligence, and all strong people should have muscle mass removal surgery.

    Eliminating advantages of birth is usually only possible by downward adjustments. You have to eliminate good things just for the sheer joy of destruction. It's just jealousy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post

    And I hate to sound boorish, but you still have not responded to at least one of the loopholes I've mentioned. In that, even if your country abolishes and outlaws private educational institutions,
    He's ignored quite a few of my points/questions as well. Not to mention everybody elses points/questions that point out the fly in his ointment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Your point is that if you abolished private schools then all the state schools would be worse.
    That's not his point.
    But your point is that without private schools power, privilege and prestige magically disappear. They do not.
    School has nothing to do with the jobs that these elite people get. they would get those stations in life simply because of the influence their family wields, Not because of where they went to school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Your point is that if you abolished private schools then all the state schools would be worse.
    That's not his point.
    But your point is that without private schools power, privilege and prestige magically disappear. They do not.
    School has nothing to do with the jobs that these elite people get. they would get those stations in life simply because of the influence their family wields, Not because of where they went to school.
    Exactly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I don't think that is achievable without stopping private schools. Students from wealthy backgrounds dominate all the best universities. It is much harder for intelligent poor students to go to them.
    The best solution - upgrade public schools to the standards you imagine private schools maintain so that everyone has an equal chance.
    The worst solution - close all the best schools so no one gets a good education.

    The rich would be terrified to have their children mix with the poor.
    Uh - no. I don't know of a single rich person who is "terrified" that their children might mix with the poor.
    If we raise the standard of all schools to be the equal of the best then there would be no need to go private.
    Exactly! And no need to ban anything; schools could compete on merit, and parents could decide where to send their kids no matter what their income.
    Your presidents send their kids to private schools. Private schools create an elite. One not based on equality of minds but on the in-equality of wealth.
    Yep. Every parent wants to send their kids to the best schools possible. As mentioned before, the best way to do that is to ensure that all schools are "elite."
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  52. #152  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I don't think that is achievable without stopping private schools. Students from wealthy backgrounds dominate all the best universities. It is much harder for intelligent poor students to go to them.
    The best solution - upgrade public schools to the standards you imagine private schools maintain so that everyone has an equal chance.
    The worst solution - close all the best schools so no one gets a good education.

    The rich would be terrified to have their children mix with the poor.
    Uh - no. I don't know of a single rich person who is "terrified" that their children might mix with the poor.
    If we raise the standard of all schools to be the equal of the best then there would be no need to go private.
    Exactly! And no need to ban anything; schools could compete on merit, and parents could decide where to send their kids no matter what their income.
    Your presidents send their kids to private schools. Private schools create an elite. One not based on equality of minds but on the in-equality of wealth.
    Yep. Every parent wants to send their kids to the best schools possible. As mentioned before, the best way to do that is to ensure that all schools are "elite."
    And while we're at it, why don't we upgrade public housing so that the poor can all live in mansions!!

    Someone who works in the records department at Berkley pointed out to me recently that one of their biggest problems is professors who flaunt the rules and won't keep proper records. She mentioned that probably the reason they feel like they can get away with it is that a number of them are Nobel laureats. .... which got me thinking.,

    It seems the solution to the problem is simple: If we want to upgrade the state schools to be equally as good as Berkley, we just need to go to the Nobel prize commission and tell them to give out more Nobel prizes. That way there will be enough Nobel Laureats so the less costly colleges can afford to hire them also, right? Sound like a good solution?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rmbettencourt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    So you argue that you should have been banned from attending that posh, exclusive. snobby school, and instead sent to a school that was not in a wealthy and rich area? (Otherwise it would be unfair that you got to go to the posh school, and unfair that you were taught to be all high and mighty compared to an inner city student.)


    Yes I do. Equal funding for all schools. Placement in top universities based upon child's ability to the fairest standard that can be reached. ( not daddys wallet ). Not which private school you came from. The class system should be taken out of schools. Private schools create an unfair system in schools. One based on money. Not on a child's natural ability. It creates class divides in children from the word go. It creates a dominate elite in society that in the end causes great conflict. How will the poorest areas of our countries develop if the children in their schools are hindered unfairly from the start? If they know that no matter how hard they work their chances are less than those of a private school....that their teachers are of a lesser standard. It is the one area of society that should be equal. That and health care for children. They are our future and all of them should be treated as such.
    Is this for me?
    Its not about you....its about equality for children. A fair education for them. I am sure wealthy privately educated people ( who can afford choice for their children) will be against such an idea . This whole argument for me is about what is fair for children. All of them. What is the fairest and best way to get the most from our brightest minds wherever they are from?.....how many potential Einsteins died with a bullet in the gutter? Their educational opportunities wasted because of where they were born. How much would decent funding in their schools have made a difference? Children should be spared politics, they should all have as equal a start as society can provide. The thing is, I know parents won't see it that way....they want what's best more for their own than anyone else's kids....I just feel children should be thought of collectively. That society should place equal importance in all of them...Private school prevents that. It creates an unfair advantage via money.
    Oh absolutely. Bring all children to the lowest common denominator. In fact, let's think globally...


    1. Based on enrollment data, about 72 million children of primary school age in the developing world were not in school in 2005; 57 per cent of them were girls. And these are regarded as optimistic numbers.
    2. Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.
    Source

    Personally, I think we should entertain the option of making sure no child has a greater opportunity than the 72 million children that are not in school at all! They probably have productive jobs tending fields or something, why should anyone else do differently? Let them all eat cake...
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Your presidents send their kids to private schools. Private schools create an elite. One not based on equality of minds but on the in-equality of wealth.
    Yep. Every parent wants to send their kids to the best schools possible. As mentioned before, the best way to do that is to ensure that all schools are "elite."
    and really I'd say it was more for the security aspect rather than the non mixture of poor people. It's probably easier for the secret service to be accommodated through private school than public school.
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    Also, despite having no money my self, the circles I run in mean I know a lot of millionaires and one guy who may be close to a billionaire. They are just human beings, and no more or less likely to be bad people than anyone else. Your attitude is far more classist than most of theirs, which is prejudice plain and simple. Some are out of touch, but I know just as many crazy poor people. Don't let yourself get poisoned with paranoid propaganda that some rich elite is purposefully ruining the lives of everyone else and terrified of the working class rising up like some French Revolution style thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I don't think that is achievable without stopping private schools. Students from wealthy backgrounds dominate all the best universities. It is much harder for intelligent poor students to go to them.
    The best solution - upgrade public schools to the standards you imagine private schools maintain so that everyone has an equal chance.
    The worst solution - close all the best schools so no one gets a good education.

    The rich would be terrified to have their children mix with the poor.
    Uh - no. I don't know of a single rich person who is "terrified" that their children might mix with the poor.
    If we raise the standard of all schools to be the equal of the best then there would be no need to go private.
    Exactly! And no need to ban anything; schools could compete on merit, and parents could decide where to send their kids no matter what their income.
    Your presidents send their kids to private schools. Private schools create an elite. One not based on equality of minds but on the in-equality of wealth.
    Yep. Every parent wants to send their kids to the best schools possible. As mentioned before, the best way to do that is to ensure that all schools are "elite."
    And while we're at it, why don't we upgrade public housing so that the poor can all live in mansions!!

    Someone who works in the records department at Berkley pointed out to me recently that one of their biggest problems is professors who flaunt the rules and won't keep proper records. She mentioned that probably the reason they feel like they can get away with it is that a number of them are Nobel laureats. .... which got me thinking.,

    It seems the solution to the problem is simple: If we want to upgrade the state schools to be equally as good as Berkley, we just need to go to the Nobel prize commission and tell them to give out more Nobel prizes. That way there will be enough Nobel Laureats so the less costly colleges can afford to hire them also, right? Sound like a good solution?
    *smile* it is BERKELY! University of California, Berkeley.
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    I have absolutely nothing at all against rich people. As I say over and over again....a point which none of you seem to get....A child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth? For me this link just turns into, all about the parents and not about the children. If the ex conservative primeminister of the U.k makes a point of how privately educated people get dominant positions in politic and business then I think we can all agree there's a problem. Look up your own politicians . Wealth buys unfair advantages in education that then go into society. It creates almost an aristocracy . Many intelligent children futures are lost because of it. If your happy having wealth over brains running your country...then fine. Don't preach Christianity, don't preach the American dream. You only have a parents right to pay for his child's advantage as a defence. One that does not think of children as a whole. A nations children as a whole. Which is what my arguement is about. Children as a whole. We shouldn't be separating children based on wealth. Adults can separate themselves but we shouldn't be doing it with children. The best Universities should not be filled with wealthy kids...it should be filled with the brightest. Private schools prevent us from finding those brightest.
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  58. #158  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    A child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth?
    What are you going to do about the fact that children of such families are often brought up with little value given to learning, with no books in the house and no incentive to study. Banning private schools is not going to change that.

    I'm not sure it would change the most significant function of private schools (networking) either, as rich parents would do something like sending their kids to after-school clubs (where no learning took place to avoid your ban) where they would mix with other children of the rich and powerful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I have absolutely nothing at all against rich people. As I say over and over again....a point which none of you seem to get....A child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth?
    And a point that YOU have not addressed - why should a rich child be penalized and denied an excellent education just because you think you know what is better for him? He didn't ask to be born rich. Why do you want to harm him?
    Many intelligent children futures are lost because of it.
    And many intelligent children do very well in the "better" schools. Why do you want to harm them by denying them that good education?
    If your happy having wealth over brains running your country...then fine.
    Personally I preach the welfare of children over people who try to exploit children for their "social engineering" projects. If you want to change society - great, advocate for the society you want. Don't harm children to achieve your goals. If you try to harm children by closing good schools you'll find an awful lot of parents fighting you. Most parents don't take kindly to strangers trying to interfere with their child's upbringing, even if you think you have good motives.
    Children as a whole.
    You cannot help poor children by harming rich children. You cannot help limited children by harming brilliant children. "Pulling the best down" pulls everyone down.
    The best Universities should not be filled with wealthy kids...it should be filled with the brightest.
    Currently they are, with a fair number of dirt-poor kids in them, brought there by scholarships. Want to help the rest? Subsidize them to go to those best universities. What? You don't care enough to do that? Then that's fine too. Just don't expect anyone else to care much about your goals when you don't care enough to work on them directly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I have absolutely nothing at all against rich people. As I say over and over again....a point which none of you seem to get....A child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth?
    Upward mobility is a great ideal, but by necessity there are always only going to be a few people who get to be at the very top. The reason being that there are only a scarce few positions at the top.

    If it isn't birth luck, then it has to be some other, equally unfair kind of luck. There are too many people who want those positions, and if some barrier isn't put in place, it would be total war all the time.

    I've met ugly women who hate beautiful women, because they know they can never be a supermodel and "it isn't fair". Why, if they're willing to work just as hard (or harder) is their dream denied to them on the silly basis of genetics (the bad luck of being born to parents without the right genes)? That's the trouble with meritocracy. Sometimes the person who "merits" didn't do anything to deserve to "merit".





    The best Universities should not be filled with wealthy kids...it should be filled with the brightest. Private schools prevent us from finding those brightest.
    I don't understand why you think this happens. In most technical fields, like engineering or in my experience: insurance adjusting, if you've got enough credentials to get your first job, and you're exceptionally good at doing the work, you'll quickly get promoted. Hardly anyone really cares what university you came out of. Not really. You can rise to upper management without even having your bachelor's degree completed if you know how to do the work exceptionally well.

    If we're talking about politics, then you're talking about social connections - of which private schools are only a small part. They're one out of about a thousand different basis for connection that wealthy people use to keep themselves insulated.

    Do you really want to prevent children with special needs, like autism or certain learning disabilities denied the chance to attend a school that is specially designed to meet their particular needs, just to very slightly impair the ability of wealthy people to mingle?
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  61. #161  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I have absolutely nothing at all against rich people. As I say over and over again....a point which none of you seem to get....A child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth?
    we get that, the point you doing't seem to nderstand from us is that there is nothing special in private schools that make them better or worse than public school. They are there so that rich kids don't have to consort with common everyday people. NOTHING WHAT-SO-EVER to do with quality of education.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    For me this link just turns into, all about the parents and not about the children.
    Children are products of their parents, again education has nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    of the ex conservative primeminister of the U.k makes a point of how privately educated people get dominant positions in politic and business then I think we can all agree there's a problem.
    That is because of the networking and the nepotism NOT BECAUSE RICH PEOPLE ARE SMARTER.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Look up your own politicians . Wealth buys unfair advantages in education that then go into society.
    Right, but not "smarter" kids. Otherwise the Bush and Reagan kids would be smarter.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It creates almost an aristocracy .
    there's no almost about it. But it's not the Private schools that create it. It's Golf courses, yachts, and country clubs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Many intelligent children futures are lost because of it.
    Not because of private school but because they aren't in the social circles that lets' them use their intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    If your happy having wealth over brains running your country...then fine.
    Not the fault of a private school. It has nothing to do with private schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    You only have a parents right to pay for his child's advantage as a defence.
    Private school is NOT an advantage.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    We shouldn't be separating children based on wealth. Adults can separate themselves but we shouldn't be doing it with children.
    WE don't need to do this as parents/adults. Kids' already do this themselves. everybody picks on the dirty kid, nobody want to be seen being friends with the ugly kid. There is an entire class/caste system within schools and it's not imposed by adults. kids impose it on themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    The best Universities should not be filled with wealthy kids...it should be filled with the brightest. Private schools prevent us from finding those brightest.
    Private schools do no such thing.
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  62. #162  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    i have absolutely nothing at all against rich people. As i say over and over again....a point which none of you seem to get....a child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth? For me this link just turns into, all about the parents and not about the children. If the ex conservative primeminister of the u.k makes a point of how privately educated people get dominant positions in politic and business then i think we can all agree there's a problem. Look up your own politicians . Wealth buys unfair advantages in education that then go into society. It creates almost an aristocracy . Many intelligent children futures are lost because of it. If your happy having wealth over brains running your country...then fine. Don't preach christianity, don't preach the american dream. You only have a parents right to pay for his child's advantage as a defence. One that does not think of children as a whole. A nations children as a whole. Which is what my arguement is about. Children as a whole. We shouldn't be separating children based on wealth. Adults can separate themselves but we shouldn't be doing it with children. The best universities should not be filled with wealthy kids...it should be filled with the brightest. Private schools prevent us from finding those brightest.

    utter nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I believe that all children should have an equal education. This should have nothing to do with how rich their parents are or the area where they grow up. This I suppose is a socialist view point or though I feel it is more about true equality. I feel the choice of being private or state damages the poorest children of all nations. Why should children be condemned by the lack of wealth of their parents? Are they not Innocent? Private Schools seem to create elite classes based upon wealth and not upon intelligence. This can only damage society as a whole ( I feel ). For myself all children are our future and they shouldn't be unfairly treated from the word go. Could this be Possible? Is it not Fair? Why would not allowing private Schools be a bad Thing?
    when you think about it, it's not unfairly treated because it's just a cycle that gets broken once in a while.

    Parents Get Rich -> Children gets good Education -> Richer Children -> Childrends Children gets a better Education -> Richer Children.
    Normal People Normal Wage -> Public school -> Children -> Public school -> Childrends Children -> Public school

    as i stated above cycles somethimes gets broken, some can come from rich to nromal or other way.
    it's just fair, not saying i because i have money. i am not considered rich or anything i mean if they had better luck than other people and then they deserve it.

    they worked hard and they give their children the best education that they can give to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Painter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I believe that all children should have an equal education. This should have nothing to do with how rich their parents are or the area where they grow up. This I suppose is a socialist view point or though I feel it is more about true equality. I feel the choice of being private or state damages the poorest children of all nations. Why should children be condemned by the lack of wealth of their parents? Are they not Innocent? Private Schools seem to create elite classes based upon wealth and not upon intelligence. This can only damage society as a whole ( I feel ). For myself all children are our future and they shouldn't be unfairly treated from the word go. Could this be Possible? Is it not Fair? Why would not allowing private Schools be a bad Thing?
    when you think about it, it's not unfairly treated because it's just a cycle that gets broken once in a while.

    Parents Get Rich -> Children gets good Education -> Richer Children -> Childrends Children gets a better Education -> Richer Children.
    Normal People Normal Wage -> Public school -> Children -> Public school -> Childrends Children -> Public school

    as i stated above cycles somethimes gets broken, some can come from rich to nromal or other way.
    it's just fair, not saying i because i have money. i am not considered rich or anything i mean if they had better luck than other people and then they deserve it.

    they worked hard and they give their children the best education that they can give to them.

    really....lower middle class parents...private school....all graduated and went to college...one into theatre, one into creative writing and one into accounting.

    Middle class parents...who worked their butts off and now are more top end Middle class parents......both kids went to public schools and one is still in college.......one works and lives in Zurich in a high level position....other is still figuring out ....



    Your forumula (on purporse) faiied.
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  65. #165  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    . My point with private schools is are they good for our society?. It is one thing to say you have to be smart to get into private school....smart is narrowed down a lot when it comes to say Eton? Unless everyone can afford their school fees. Yet Eton boys end up in very dominant positions in society. Oxford and Cambridge should be for our countries finest brains but alas its for a select few....it is in a sense a crime on our belief in an equal and fair schooling system.

    The secrets of Oxbridge: What London's public school powerhouses are doing right - Life & Style - London Evening Standard

    Is this the best future for our kids? not our own personal children, but our nations future Collectively? We preach equality but its a myth. Freedom of choice has nothing to do with it.

    I'm noticing one major problem with this premise, which is that it should be pointed out that correlation is not necessarily causation.

    Rich people get into the best positions in society. Rich people get into the best private schools.

    Wouldn't it stand to reason to think that the fact they are rich is what opened those doors, and not the fact that they attended private schools?

    Politics is becoming more and more a money game. Certainly Hollywood is influenced by money. It's a lot easier to find investors for a film if a rich person's son or daughter is starring in the film. So rich kids have an easier time becoming film stars (especially the rich children of an established director or producer.)
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  66. #166  
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    [QUOTE=babe;562736]
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    i have absolutely nothing at all against rich people. As i say over and over again....a point which none of you seem to get....a child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth? For me this link just turns into, all about the parents and not about the children. If the ex conservative primeminister of the u.k makes a point of how privately educated people get dominant positions in politic and business then i think we can all agree there's a problem. Look up your own politicians . Wealth buys unfair advantages in education that then go into society. It creates almost an aristocracy . Many intelligent children futures are lost because of it. If your happy having wealth over brains running your country...then fine. Don't preach christianity, don't preach the american dream. You only have a parents right to pay for his child's advantage as a defence. One that does not think of children as a whole. A nations children as a whole. Which is what my arguement is about. Children as a whole. We shouldn't be separating children based on wealth. Adults can separate themselves but we shouldn't be doing it with children. The best universities should not be filled with wealthy kids...it should be filled with the brightest. Private schools prevent us from finding those brightest.

    Not utter nonsense.....do your research into Harvard and most of the other top universities....see how they disproportionately filled with kids from private schools with wealthy parents. In the U.k, even our ex priminsiters are making a point by pointing it out. I agree with others posts about how could you would change this system in a society like America, a society that bends towards elites like your George Bush jnr and senior. Your politics is riddled with rich privately educated politicians. My point about banning them was towards changing the ideology of schools. One where daddys wealth couldn't buy you a better chance in education. I suppose that goes against what Americans are. So I gracefully agree to dis agree...if you think that's nonsense as well then fair enough. The future of schooling and society will just carry on as it has done for the last few hundred years...like it has done before America existed. One where money and status gets you a place in all the best universities.
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    [QUOTE=jonio;562802]
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    i have absolutely nothing at all against rich people. As i say over and over again....a point which none of you seem to get....a child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth? For me this link just turns into, all about the parents and not about the children. If the ex conservative primeminister of the u.k makes a point of how privately educated people get dominant positions in politic and business then i think we can all agree there's a problem. Look up your own politicians . Wealth buys unfair advantages in education that then go into society. It creates almost an aristocracy . Many intelligent children futures are lost because of it. If your happy having wealth over brains running your country...then fine. Don't preach christianity, don't preach the american dream. You only have a parents right to pay for his child's advantage as a defence. One that does not think of children as a whole. A nations children as a whole. Which is what my arguement is about. Children as a whole. We shouldn't be separating children based on wealth. Adults can separate themselves but we shouldn't be doing it with children. The best universities should not be filled with wealthy kids...it should be filled with the brightest. Private schools prevent us from finding those brightest.

    Not utter nonsense.....do your research into Harvard and most of the other top universities....see how they disproportionately filled with kids from private schools with wealthy parents. In the U.k, even our ex priminsiters are making a point by pointing it out. I agree with others posts about how could you would change this system in a society like America, a society that bends towards elites like your George Bush jnr and senior. Your politics is riddled with rich privately educated politicians. My point about banning them was towards changing the ideology of schools. One where daddys wealth couldn't buy you a better chance in education. I suppose that goes against what Americans are. So I gracefully agree to dis agree...if you think that's nonsense as well then fair enough. The future of schooling and society will just carry on as it has done for the last few hundred years...like it has done before America existed. One where money and status gets you a place in all the best universities.
    And my kids..who were not from rich parents got accepted to many places....

    You need to get educated as to how things happen.

    IS there an element where a kid gets accepted because of pull......I would have to say yes, but is that the general population of the University....no.

    You are delusional in that.
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  68. #168  
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    [QUOTE=babe;562811]
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    i have absolutely nothing at all against rich people. As i say over and over again....a point which none of you seem to get....a child is innocent when born....so why is his education and chance in life penalized because of his parents lack of wealth? For me this link just turns into, all about the parents and not about the children. If the ex conservative primeminister of the u.k makes a point of how privately educated people get dominant positions in politic and business then i think we can all agree there's a problem. Look up your own politicians . Wealth buys unfair advantages in education that then go into society. It creates almost an aristocracy . Many intelligent children futures are lost because of it. If your happy having wealth over brains running your country...then fine. Don't preach christianity, don't preach the american dream. You only have a parents right to pay for his child's advantage as a defence. One that does not think of children as a whole. A nations children as a whole. Which is what my arguement is about. Children as a whole. We shouldn't be separating children based on wealth. Adults can separate themselves but we shouldn't be doing it with children. The best universities should not be filled with wealthy kids...it should be filled with the brightest. Private schools prevent us from finding those brightest.

    Not utter nonsense.....do your research into Harvard and most of the other top universities....see how they disproportionately filled with kids from private schools with wealthy parents. In the U.k, even our ex priminsiters are making a point by pointing it out. I agree with others posts about how could you would change this system in a society like America, a society that bends towards elites like your George Bush jnr and senior. Your politics is riddled with rich privately educated politicians. My point about banning them was towards changing the ideology of schools. One where daddys wealth couldn't buy you a better chance in education. I suppose that goes against what Americans are. So I gracefully agree to dis agree...if you think that's nonsense as well then fair enough. The future of schooling and society will just carry on as it has done for the last few hundred years...like it has done before America existed. One where money and status gets you a place in all the best universities.
    And my kids..who were not from rich parents got accepted to many places....

    You need to get educated as to how things happen.

    IS there an element where a kid gets accepted because of pull......I would have to say yes, but is that the general population of the University....no.

    You are delusional in that.
    Private education benefits the general population of the best universities. Compared to percentage of populations of state schools. Private educated kids dominate the best universities in the U.k....I looked at the usa and it seems the same. I looked at your point about good state schools and your right. There are great ones. Unfortunately for a lot of parents they can't seem to afford their kids to go to the top universities. Yes there are exceptions but its still dominated by private compared to state....look at the stats. Look how many private schools there are to state. Then look at the famous and best university places filled with private kids. Wealth buys you more spots....that is unfair to children. WHO ARE INNOCENT OF WHERE THEY ARE BORN!!! Did you chose your Parents? Yes its the way we humans are and I suppose what capitalism is about. I just think our kids should be free from politics. They should have equal funding in schools. Schools should be at the highest level for all. Private schools give weathy parents an advantage. They don't need to worry about the state of state schools because they can buy their way out of it. Leaving millions of other children in the gutter. Its the ideology of the system I am against. Capitalism can wait till after school. Yes my idea may seem a pipe dream, it may seem unfair to wealthy parents, but it will be a fair start for kids. All of them.....all schools need to be the best they can. All people should put into the same system for all kids. This is my last post on this subject....If nobody can see an alternative to the school systems we have, then its gonna be wealthy private school kids getting all the top places forever...I personally would be happy to ban private schools because it promotes class segregation in children, in education, that then goes into politics, business, law. Yes connections do, but that's because we allow those connections to go into schools. We should be looking to get the best from all our children. Not allow the wealthy to keep the best in education for themselves. That's unfair to innocent children.
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  69. #169  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Not utter nonsense.....do your research into Harvard and most of the other top universities....
    69% of the class of 2010 at Harvard was from public schools. You were saying?
    see how they disproportionately filled with kids from private schools with wealthy parents.
    Here's some actual experience, gained from actually going to one of these schools instead of reading stuff on the Internet -

    When I was at MIT, which is arguably one of the best (if not the best) technical school in the world, about 80% of the students were from public schools. Today about 70% are.

    Most are from California nowadays. Maybe you could ban kids from California because it's unfair.

    The student body was made up of poor kids, rich kids, foreigners, locals, white kids, asian kids, indian kids, snooty kids and down-to-earth kids. There were gorgeous women, nerdy guys, athletes, heavy drinkers, comic book aficionados and constant partyers. The one thing they had in common was they were all pretty smart. Maybe you could outlaw smart kids getting into good colleges, since that's unfair to the dumb kids.
    My point about banning them was towards changing the ideology of schools. One where daddys wealth couldn't buy you a better chance in education.
    You'd prefer a world where nothing can get you a better education. Glad I didn't live there when I went to school, or I would have missed out on an amazing opportunity.
    Last edited by billvon; May 6th, 2014 at 11:05 AM.
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  70. #170  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Not utter nonsense.....do your research into Harvard and most of the other top universities....
    69% of the class of 2010 at Harvard was from public schools. You were saying?
    Yale University students are also also mostly (55%) from public schools.
    Yale "Factsheet" | Office of Institutional Research

    --
    jonio perhaps you should actually look at the facts instead of being buried by facts that don't support your ideological arguments.
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  71. #171  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
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  72. #172  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Not utter nonsense.....do your research into Harvard and most of the other top universities....
    69% of the class of 2010 at Harvard was from public schools. You were saying?
    Yale University students are also also mostly (55%) from public schools.
    Yale "Factsheet" | Office of Institutional Research

    --
    jonio perhaps you should actually look at the facts instead of being buried by facts that don't support your ideological arguments.
    How many public schools to private are There? Mmmmmmmmm?
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  73. #173  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
    Are Americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | Sadhbh Walshe | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    America will learn possibly like the French did.....your equality and the U.ks is becoming a joke.
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  74. #174  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
    Are Americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | Sadhbh Walshe | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    Well duh! No ones is arguing against that point.

    How do you think an article that doesn't even mention private schools supports your idea to get rid of them?
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  75. #175  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
    Are Americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | Sadhbh Walshe | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    Well duh! No ones is arguing against that point.

    How do you think an article that doesn't even mention private schools supports your idea to get rid of them?
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    Last edited by jonio; May 6th, 2014 at 01:42 PM.
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  76. #176  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
    Are Americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | Sadhbh Walshe | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    Well duh! No ones is arguing against that point.

    How do you think an article that doesn't even mention private schools supports your idea to get rid of them?
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    Your argument hinges entirely upon favoring equality over human knowledge. Your points support that implicitly, but you deny it when it is brought up. If you think it is worth compounding human ignorance to make more equality, say so. If not, modify your position.

    Here is a better solution.

    Do not mess with private schools. People who fight for the lowering of humanity look at people on top and say how can I drag them down. People who want to raise them up say how can I bring everyone else up there? So leave private schools alone.

    Instead, make public schools have equal funding. Don't fund public schools based on local budgets. Right now? The education equality you talk about? It is worse in the public sector than anywhere else. So why are you trusting public schools to make things more equal, when they make them more unequal than anything? Your own system is broken. Fix the system before you destroy a functional system. Don't destroy something you don't like until you have an actual alternative.

    Here is the thing that is true by numbers and economics. For every private school that gets shut down, your public schools should get worse. For every private school out there, your public schools should get better.

    As much as many people argue that all programs ever are woefully underfunded and all programs need a ton more funds, it is total nonsense. The government is not magic. It cannot make things happen without money. And past a certain point, a point most states have already passed, taxing more reduces government funds. That's how it works. There is an optimal taxation amount before it becomes counter-intuitive. So we have a limited supply of money. We can't just increase education budgets. It doesn't work. Equalizing school funding is a start, but now all public schools are just somewhat underfunded instead of some having almost no funding at all. But that is the best part about equalizing public school funding. It will in all likelihood increase the amount of money each school has per kid. Because there will be fewer kids in the system. 1000 dollars split five ways goes twice as far as 1000 dollars split ten ways. And that is exactly what will happen.

    Right now, people with money have better public school options so they are happy keeping their kids in public school. People with money will not want their kids to go to a school that is as poor as everyone else, so they will take their kids out and send them to a private school. Don't try and stop them! Let them! Encourage them! The government only has so much money, but as long as people are willing to spend money above and beyond their taxation on education, education over all has more money! For every child that goes to private school, the public option now has more money to spend per kid! You might say, "Some schools get a certain amount of money for each kid!" but that comes from the overall money spent on education. That is X amount of dollars someone else doesn't get.

    Here's the thing. Every time a kid leaves the public school system for the private one, there is the potential for the public school to bridge that gap. Every time a kid goes from the private school system to the public school system, the public school system gets worse.

    Your ideal? A world with equality in education? It is impossible to achieve. BUT the closest thing to that? The closest way to achieve equality is for the system to have as much private schooling as possible, leaving public school for those who truly can't afford it but it will have a small enough group of kids that the public option will actually have enough money to compete with the private schools. Once again, over-regulation increases inequality.

    Your proposal will mean less money spent on education. It is completely inescapable. It is pure math. All the kids in private school now? Thrown into public school? That money spent on private schools doesn't go to public schools instead. That isn't how it works. And the people aren't just a cash cow to tax whatever you want. A country can only spend as much money as they have, and when they spend more, very bad things will happen.
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  77. #177  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
    Are Americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | Sadhbh Walshe | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    Well duh! No ones is arguing against that point.

    How do you think an article that doesn't even mention private schools supports your idea to get rid of them?
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    Your argument hinges entirely upon favoring equality over human knowledge. Your points support that implicitly, but you deny it when it is brought up. If you think it is worth compounding human ignorance to make more equality, say so. If not, modify your position.

    Here is a better solution.

    Do not mess with private schools. People who fight for the lowering of humanity look at people on top and say how can I drag them down. People who want to raise them up say how can I bring everyone else up there? So leave private schools alone.

    Instead, make public schools have equal funding. Don't fund public schools based on local budgets. Right now? The education equality you talk about? It is worse in the public sector than anywhere else. So why are you trusting public schools to make things more equal, when they make them more unequal than anything? Your own system is broken. Fix the system before you destroy a functional system. Don't destroy something you don't like until you have an actual alternative.

    Here is the thing that is true by numbers and economics. For every private school that gets shut down, your public schools should get worse. For every private school out there, your public schools should get better.

    As much as many people argue that all programs ever are woefully underfunded and all programs need a ton more funds, it is total nonsense. The government is not magic. It cannot make things happen without money. And past a certain point, a point most states have already passed, taxing more reduces government funds. That's how it works. There is an optimal taxation amount before it becomes counter-intuitive. So we have a limited supply of money. We can't just increase education budgets. It doesn't work. Equalizing school funding is a start, but now all public schools are just somewhat underfunded instead of some having almost no funding at all. But that is the best part about equalizing public school funding. It will in all likelihood increase the amount of money each school has per kid. Because there will be fewer kids in the system. 1000 dollars split five ways goes twice as far as 1000 dollars split ten ways. And that is exactly what will happen.

    Right now, people with money have better public school options so they are happy keeping their kids in public school. People with money will not want their kids to go to a school that is as poor as everyone else, so they will take their kids out and send them to a private school. Don't try and stop them! Let them! Encourage them! The government only has so much money, but as long as people are willing to spend money above and beyond their taxation on education, education over all has more money! For every child that goes to private school, the public option now has more money to spend per kid! You might say, "Some schools get a certain amount of money for each kid!" but that comes from the overall money spent on education. That is X amount of dollars someone else doesn't get.

    Here's the thing. Every time a kid leaves the public school system for the private one, there is the potential for the public school to bridge that gap. Every time a kid goes from the private school system to the public school system, the public school system gets worse.

    Your ideal? A world with equality in education? It is impossible to achieve. BUT the closest thing to that? The closest way to achieve equality is for the system to have as much private schooling as possible, leaving public school for those who truly can't afford it but it will have a small enough group of kids that the public option will actually have enough money to compete with the private schools. Once again, over-regulation increases inequality.

    Your proposal will mean less money spent on education. It is completely inescapable. It is pure math. All the kids in private school now? Thrown into public school? That money spent on private schools doesn't go to public schools instead. That isn't how it works. And the people aren't just a cash cow to tax whatever you want. A country can only spend as much money as they have, and when they spend more, very bad things will happen.
    I am not sure whether it is so much about funding in schools and more about the way pupils are taught. The thing that worries me about private schools is that it creates class within children. I go to the most expensive school and that makes me better than you. I think it helps separate society or adds to the separation in society.
    We should learn from countries such as Finland. Its mostly free and much better than Americas public system and private ( mostly ). Its the methods of teaching in schools that need changing. I respect your ideas on this subject but I go with countries like Finland. They do it better than us and don't have private schools. I was waiting for someone to bring up Finland but instead got loads of what about parents freedom of choice?..or why drag schools down to state levels?...Why don't we just change our methods of Teaching??? One where all children benefit. One without the need of private School. Maybe people like strange should think how he wasted all that money on private education. Also don't get a Samsung tablet to write on this website...it drives me mad:-):-)
    Last edited by jonio; May 6th, 2014 at 04:18 PM.
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  78. #178  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    [I am not sure whether it is so much about funding in schools and more about the way pupils are taught. The thing that worries me about private schools is that it creates class within children.
    And you think this DOESN'T happen with public schools? You think there aren't stark and obvious class distinctions within public primary and high schools?
    I go to the most expensive school and that makes me better than you.
    Most people in the most expensive schools don't think that. You may think that, that's fine - but the solution to that problem is changing the way you see things.
    I respect your ideas on this subject but I go with countries like Finland. They do it better than us and don't have private schools.
    Finland has private schools.
    I was waiting for someone to bring up Finland . . .
    Finland has private schools and has a great educational system. Therefore private schools can be part of a great educational system.
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  79. #179  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
    Are Americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | Sadhbh Walshe | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    Well duh! No ones is arguing against that point.

    How do you think an article that doesn't even mention private schools supports your idea to get rid of them?
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    Your argument hinges entirely upon favoring equality over human knowledge. Your points support that implicitly, but you deny it when it is brought up. If you think it is worth compounding human ignorance to make more equality, say so. If not, modify your position.

    Here is a better solution.

    Do not mess with private schools. People who fight for the lowering of humanity look at people on top and say how can I drag them down. People who want to raise them up say how can I bring everyone else up there? So leave private schools alone.

    Instead, make public schools have equal funding. Don't fund public schools based on local budgets. Right now? The education equality you talk about? It is worse in the public sector than anywhere else. So why are you trusting public schools to make things more equal, when they make them more unequal than anything? Your own system is broken. Fix the system before you destroy a functional system. Don't destroy something you don't like until you have an actual alternative.

    Here is the thing that is true by numbers and economics. For every private school that gets shut down, your public schools should get worse. For every private school out there, your public schools should get better.

    As much as many people argue that all programs ever are woefully underfunded and all programs need a ton more funds, it is total nonsense. The government is not magic. It cannot make things happen without money. And past a certain point, a point most states have already passed, taxing more reduces government funds. That's how it works. There is an optimal taxation amount before it becomes counter-intuitive. So we have a limited supply of money. We can't just increase education budgets. It doesn't work. Equalizing school funding is a start, but now all public schools are just somewhat underfunded instead of some having almost no funding at all. But that is the best part about equalizing public school funding. It will in all likelihood increase the amount of money each school has per kid. Because there will be fewer kids in the system. 1000 dollars split five ways goes twice as far as 1000 dollars split ten ways. And that is exactly what will happen.

    Right now, people with money have better public school options so they are happy keeping their kids in public school. People with money will not want their kids to go to a school that is as poor as everyone else, so they will take their kids out and send them to a private school. Don't try and stop them! Let them! Encourage them! The government only has so much money, but as long as people are willing to spend money above and beyond their taxation on education, education over all has more money! For every child that goes to private school, the public option now has more money to spend per kid! You might say, "Some schools get a certain amount of money for each kid!" but that comes from the overall money spent on education. That is X amount of dollars someone else doesn't get.

    Here's the thing. Every time a kid leaves the public school system for the private one, there is the potential for the public school to bridge that gap. Every time a kid goes from the private school system to the public school system, the public school system gets worse.

    Your ideal? A world with equality in education? It is impossible to achieve. BUT the closest thing to that? The closest way to achieve equality is for the system to have as much private schooling as possible, leaving public school for those who truly can't afford it but it will have a small enough group of kids that the public option will actually have enough money to compete with the private schools. Once again, over-regulation increases inequality.

    Your proposal will mean less money spent on education. It is completely inescapable. It is pure math. All the kids in private school now? Thrown into public school? That money spent on private schools doesn't go to public schools instead. That isn't how it works. And the people aren't just a cash cow to tax whatever you want. A country can only spend as much money as they have, and when they spend more, very bad things will happen.
    I am not sure whether it is so much about funding in schools and more about the way pupils are taught. The thing that worries me about private schools is that it creates class within children. I go to the most expensive school and that makes me better than you. I think it helps separate society or adds to the separation in society.
    We should learn from countries such as Finland. Its mostly free and much better than Americas public system and private mostly. Its the methods of teaching in schools that need changing. I respect your ideas on this subject but I go with countries like Finland. They do it better than us and don't have private schools. I was waiting for someone to bring up Finland but instead got loads of what about parents freedom of choice?..or why drag schools down to state levels?...Why don't we just change our methods of Teaching??? One where all children benefit. One without the need of private School. Maybe people like strange should think how he wasted all that money on private education. Also don't get a Samsung tablet to write on this website...it drives me mad:-):-)
    You're wrong on this one, Finland does have private schools. Finland was able to bring public education up to private levels of quality by actually improving public schools, not just torching private schools. Also, Finland has more money per person than we do. US population is far more bloated. We can't just make our education system as good as Finland's by inventing money. That is why Finland doesn't have the school charge for their private schools. They have the money that we don't. And we can't have an economy like Finland's, we are too big of a country. Your proposal makes our system less like Finland, because in your system public schools have less money and in mine public schools have more money. You might say there are other things you want to do to increase public funding, but cutting private schools means less money per child for public schools.

    Also, classist attitudes are primarily bred at home. And it looks like your paranoia about the wealthier caste's attitudes is more classist than most rich people.
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  80. #180  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    So your perspective is that if wealthy people's children had to go to the same schools as poor people, wealthy people would lobby to improve public schools?

    I totally agree that the children of any government agent should be in public school (so long as their security can be guaranteed.) They're government agents, so the system they create should be the system they must endure.

    But as for wealthy people in general, I'm not seeing your point. Those other rich people still pay for public school even if their own children aren't attending. The progressive tax system guarantees the upper middle class ones will pay more than the rest of us.

    If you're worried about the extremely rich, then are you also planning to deny their childrens' visas? If your own country's private schools aren't allowed to educate them, then they'll simply put them on an airplane and send them to a foreign country to attend private school there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
    Are Americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | Sadhbh Walshe | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    Well duh! No ones is arguing against that point.

    How do you think an article that doesn't even mention private schools supports your idea to get rid of them?
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    Your argument hinges entirely upon favoring equality over human knowledge. Your points support that implicitly, but you deny it when it is brought up. If you think it is worth compounding human ignorance to make more equality, say so. If not, modify your position.

    Here is a better solution.

    Do not mess with private schools. People who fight for the lowering of humanity look at people on top and say how can I drag them down. People who want to raise them up say how can I bring everyone else up there? So leave private schools alone.

    Instead, make public schools have equal funding. Don't fund public schools based on local budgets. Right now? The education equality you talk about? It is worse in the public sector than anywhere else. So why are you trusting public schools to make things more equal, when they make them more unequal than anything? Your own system is broken. Fix the system before you destroy a functional system. Don't destroy something you don't like until you have an actual alternative.

    Here is the thing that is true by numbers and economics. For every private school that gets shut down, your public schools should get worse. For every private school out there, your public schools should get better.

    As much as many people argue that all programs ever are woefully underfunded and all programs need a ton more funds, it is total nonsense. The government is not magic. It cannot make things happen without money. And past a certain point, a point most states have already passed, taxing more reduces government funds. That's how it works. There is an optimal taxation amount before it becomes counter-intuitive. So we have a limited supply of money. We can't just increase education budgets. It doesn't work. Equalizing school funding is a start, but now all public schools are just somewhat underfunded instead of some having almost no funding at all. But that is the best part about equalizing public school funding. It will in all likelihood increase the amount of money each school has per kid. Because there will be fewer kids in the system. 1000 dollars split five ways goes twice as far as 1000 dollars split ten ways. And that is exactly what will happen.

    Right now, people with money have better public school options so they are happy keeping their kids in public school. People with money will not want their kids to go to a school that is as poor as everyone else, so they will take their kids out and send them to a private school. Don't try and stop them! Let them! Encourage them! The government only has so much money, but as long as people are willing to spend money above and beyond their taxation on education, education over all has more money! For every child that goes to private school, the public option now has more money to spend per kid! You might say, "Some schools get a certain amount of money for each kid!" but that comes from the overall money spent on education. That is X amount of dollars someone else doesn't get.

    Here's the thing. Every time a kid leaves the public school system for the private one, there is the potential for the public school to bridge that gap. Every time a kid goes from the private school system to the public school system, the public school system gets worse.

    Your ideal? A world with equality in education? It is impossible to achieve. BUT the closest thing to that? The closest way to achieve equality is for the system to have as much private schooling as possible, leaving public school for those who truly can't afford it but it will have a small enough group of kids that the public option will actually have enough money to compete with the private schools. Once again, over-regulation increases inequality.

    Your proposal will mean less money spent on education. It is completely inescapable. It is pure math. All the kids in private school now? Thrown into public school? That money spent on private schools doesn't go to public schools instead. That isn't how it works. And the people aren't just a cash cow to tax whatever you want. A country can only spend as much money as they have, and when they spend more, very bad things will happen.
    I am not sure whether it is so much about funding in schools and more about the way pupils are taught. The thing that worries me about private schools is that it creates class within children. I go to the most expensive school and that makes me better than you. I think it helps separate society or adds to the separation in society.
    We should learn from countries such as Finland. Its mostly free and much better than Americas public system and private mostly. Its the methods of teaching in schools that need changing. I respect your ideas on this subject but I go with countries like Finland. They do it better than us and don't have private schools. I was waiting for someone to bring up Finland but instead got loads of what about parents freedom of choice?..or why drag schools down to state levels?...Why don't we just change our methods of Teaching??? One where all children benefit. One without the need of private School. Maybe people like strange should think how he wasted all that money on private education. Also don't get a Samsung tablet to write on this website...it drives me mad:-):-)
    You're wrong on this one, Finland does have private schools. Finland was able to bring public education up to private levels of quality by actually improving public schools, not just torching private schools. Also, Finland has more money per person than we do. US population is far more bloated. We can't just make our education system as good as Finland's by inventing money. That is why Finland doesn't have the school charge for their private schools. They have the money that we don't. And we can't have an economy like Finland's, we are too big of a country. Your proposal makes our system less like Finland, because in your system public schools have less money and in mine public schools have more money. You might say there are other things you want to do to increase public funding, but cutting private schools means less money per child for public schools.

    Also, classist attitudes are primarily bred at home. And it looks like your paranoia about the wealthier caste's attitudes is more classist than most rich people.
    Sorry, I forgot about finlands private religious schools. I would ban them aswell, somethings should be taught at home. I have nothing against rich people and I am not poor. I don't think children should be educated with the ideas of expensive posh schools. They should mix with poorer children within their neighbourhoods. I think its rich people who are more scared of poor people. Maybe if america stops wasting money on daft missile defences it could match Finlands spending per head per capita. Or maybe use some of Harvards reserves. I want to make education equal for all children by quality and not because of daddies wealth. I hate the idea of a child being un-equally treated because of parents wealth. That can be left for home not by society and government.
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  82. #182  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    So your perspective is that if wealthy people's children had to go to the same schools as poor people, wealthy people would lobby to improve public schools?

    I totally agree that the children of any government agent should be in public school (so long as their security can be guaranteed.) They're government agents, so the system they create should be the system they must endure.

    But as for wealthy people in general, I'm not seeing your point. Those other rich people still pay for public school even if their own children aren't attending. The progressive tax system guarantees the upper middle class ones will pay more than the rest of us.

    If you're worried about the extremely rich, then are you also planning to deny their childrens' visas? If your own country's private schools aren't allowed to educate them, then they'll simply put them on an airplane and send them to a foreign country to attend private school there.
    We don't need private schools. Children shouldn't be segregated because of wealth in schools. It creates division from the word go. Children do not chose where they are born. We as a society should provide for them equally. Private schools create class and divide based upon wealth. Let the adults do that after school. Lets at least give our children equality not based on wealth in schools. My point is for the future. Also let them go abroad. I would rather my kids have a free education Finnish style. Its the teaching methods that need improving. Not the bricks and morter.
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  83. #183  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Lets at least give our children equality not based on wealth in schools. My point is for the future. Also let them go abroad. I would rather my kids have a free education Finnish style.
    In one of Finland's excellent private schools? Your plan would create an even sharper divide between the haves and have nots - the people who can afford to send their children abroad to school and the people who cannot.

    I think that's the biggest problem here. You might be well intentioned, but you would end up making the problem you are trying to solve worse by not thinking through solutions.
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  84. #184  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    So your perspective is that if wealthy people's children had to go to the same schools as poor people, wealthy people would lobby to improve public schools?

    I totally agree that the children of any government agent should be in public school (so long as their security can be guaranteed.) They're government agents, so the system they create should be the system they must endure.

    But as for wealthy people in general, I'm not seeing your point. Those other rich people still pay for public school even if their own children aren't attending. The progressive tax system guarantees the upper middle class ones will pay more than the rest of us.

    If you're worried about the extremely rich, then are you also planning to deny their childrens' visas? If your own country's private schools aren't allowed to educate them, then they'll simply put them on an airplane and send them to a foreign country to attend private school there.
    We don't need private schools. Children shouldn't be segregated because of wealth in schools. It creates division from the word go. Children do not chose where they are born. We as a society should provide for them equally. Private schools create class and divide based upon wealth. Let the adults do that after school. Lets at least give our children equality not based on wealth in schools. My point is for the future. Also let them go abroad. I would rather my kids have a free education Finnish style. Its the teaching methods that need improving. Not the bricks and morter.
    But your idea objectively makes public schools more overcrowded and have less money. Your view is willing to increase ignorance in the world in order to increase equality. If that is your philosophy, okay, fine, just admit that. You haven't once provided an argument on why quality of education would increase. How could you? Your proposal can't do that. And many many arguments have shown other proposals could create higher quality education which you have had no response to other than there is still inequality. If that is your philosophy, okay, but your idea absolutely decreases knowledge and increases ignorance and further underfunds public schools. How can you avoid that? I'm pretty sure you can't.
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  85. #185  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    So your perspective is that if wealthy people's children had to go to the same schools as poor people, wealthy people would lobby to improve public schools?

    I totally agree that the children of any government agent should be in public school (so long as their security can be guaranteed.) They're government agents, so the system they create should be the system they must endure.

    But as for wealthy people in general, I'm not seeing your point. Those other rich people still pay for public school even if their own children aren't attending. The progressive tax system guarantees the upper middle class ones will pay more than the rest of us.

    If you're worried about the extremely rich, then are you also planning to deny their childrens' visas? If your own country's private schools aren't allowed to educate them, then they'll simply put them on an airplane and send them to a foreign country to attend private school there.
    We don't need private schools. Children shouldn't be segregated because of wealth in schools. It creates division from the word go. Children do not chose where they are born. We as a society should provide for them equally. Private schools create class and divide based upon wealth. Let the adults do that after school. Lets at least give our children equality not based on wealth in schools. My point is for the future. Also let them go abroad. I would rather my kids have a free education Finnish style. Its the teaching methods that need improving. Not the bricks and morter.
    But your idea objectively makes public schools more overcrowded and have less money. Your view is willing to increase ignorance in the world in order to increase equality. If that is your philosophy, okay, fine, just admit that. You haven't once provided an argument on why quality of education would increase. How could you? Your proposal can't do that. And many many arguments have shown other proposals could create higher quality education which you have had no response to other than there is still inequality. If that is your philosophy, okay, but your idea absolutely decreases knowledge and increases ignorance and further underfunds public schools. How can you avoid that? I'm pretty sure you can't.
    The point is....Private education doesn't raise standards of education. I believe it increases ignorance in children. Not knowledge. Absolutely the opposite of what you say. It segregates children based on their wealth. Your argument of further underfunded schools is based on how America funds them in the first place. Finland seems to deal with it ok. You don't. Its also as I pointed out about the way you teach. The way the school works. Lets face it. America and Britain has a poor school system. I feel private makes it ok for those who have to not worry about it. Like the politicians who send their kids to private schools. I agree with everyone who says bring the level of state/public schools up...but then ban the private ones. Even those religious ones ( unlike Finland ). America and England just forgets its poor children. Private education encourages it.
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  86. #186  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I agree with everyone who says bring the level of state/public schools up...but then ban the private ones.
    Why ban schools that are equal to all other schools?
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  87. #187  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    So your perspective is that if wealthy people's children had to go to the same schools as poor people, wealthy people would lobby to improve public schools?

    I totally agree that the children of any government agent should be in public school (so long as their security can be guaranteed.) They're government agents, so the system they create should be the system they must endure.

    But as for wealthy people in general, I'm not seeing your point. Those other rich people still pay for public school even if their own children aren't attending. The progressive tax system guarantees the upper middle class ones will pay more than the rest of us.

    If you're worried about the extremely rich, then are you also planning to deny their childrens' visas? If your own country's private schools aren't allowed to educate them, then they'll simply put them on an airplane and send them to a foreign country to attend private school there.
    We don't need private schools. Children shouldn't be segregated because of wealth in schools. It creates division from the word go. Children do not chose where they are born. We as a society should provide for them equally. Private schools create class and divide based upon wealth. Let the adults do that after school. Lets at least give our children equality not based on wealth in schools. My point is for the future. Also let them go abroad. I would rather my kids have a free education Finnish style. Its the teaching methods that need improving. Not the bricks and morter.
    But your idea objectively makes public schools more overcrowded and have less money. Your view is willing to increase ignorance in the world in order to increase equality. If that is your philosophy, okay, fine, just admit that. You haven't once provided an argument on why quality of education would increase. How could you? Your proposal can't do that. And many many arguments have shown other proposals could create higher quality education which you have had no response to other than there is still inequality. If that is your philosophy, okay, but your idea absolutely decreases knowledge and increases ignorance and further underfunds public schools. How can you avoid that? I'm pretty sure you can't.
    The point is....Private education doesn't raise standards of education. I believe it increases ignorance in children. Not knowledge. Absolutely the opposite of what you say. It segregates children based on their wealth. Your argument of further underfunded schools is based on how America funds them in the first place. Finland seems to deal with it ok. You don't. Its also as I pointed out about the way you teach. The way the school works. Lets face it. America and Britain has a poor school system. I feel private makes it ok for those who have to not worry about it. Like the politicians who send their kids to private schools. I agree with everyone who says bring the level of state/public schools up...but then ban the private ones. Even those religious ones ( unlike Finland ). America and England just forgets its poor children. Private education encourages it.
    And yet, objectively and undeniably, this will put a massive financial burden on the school system. It is undeniable. Schools will be more underfunded if you throw that many more kids into it. That making private schools common increases the quality of public schools is not difficult logic. You seem determined on finding a way to drag people on top down. Why? Why is that your first solution? Why do you jump so quickly to destruction and violence? (Saying people can't send their children to private school is inherently violent. You are using threats of force to say what people can and cannot do with their own resources, and you will point a gun at anyone who defies it.) Why not try and find other solutions that raise people up, instead of drag people down? And your claims about how private schools create classiscm are themselves entirely based on classicism. They lack any substance other than anti-wealthy rhetoric.
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  88. #188  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    So your perspective is that if wealthy people's children had to go to the same schools as poor people, wealthy people would lobby to improve public schools?

    I totally agree that the children of any government agent should be in public school (so long as their security can be guaranteed.) They're government agents, so the system they create should be the system they must endure.

    But as for wealthy people in general, I'm not seeing your point. Those other rich people still pay for public school even if their own children aren't attending. The progressive tax system guarantees the upper middle class ones will pay more than the rest of us.

    If you're worried about the extremely rich, then are you also planning to deny their childrens' visas? If your own country's private schools aren't allowed to educate them, then they'll simply put them on an airplane and send them to a foreign country to attend private school there.
    We don't need private schools. Children shouldn't be segregated because of wealth in schools. It creates division from the word go. Children do not chose where they are born. We as a society should provide for them equally. Private schools create class and divide based upon wealth. Let the adults do that after school. Lets at least give our children equality not based on wealth in schools. My point is for the future. Also let them go abroad. I would rather my kids have a free education Finnish style. Its the teaching methods that need improving. Not the bricks and morter.
    But your idea objectively makes public schools more overcrowded and have less money. Your view is willing to increase ignorance in the world in order to increase equality. If that is your philosophy, okay, fine, just admit that. You haven't once provided an argument on why quality of education would increase. How could you? Your proposal can't do that. And many many arguments have shown other proposals could create higher quality education which you have had no response to other than there is still inequality. If that is your philosophy, okay, but your idea absolutely decreases knowledge and increases ignorance and further underfunds public schools. How can you avoid that? I'm pretty sure you can't.
    The point is....Private education doesn't raise standards of education. I believe it increases ignorance in children. Not knowledge. Absolutely the opposite of what you say. It segregates children based on their wealth. Your argument of further underfunded schools is based on how America funds them in the first place. Finland seems to deal with it ok. You don't. Its also as I pointed out about the way you teach. The way the school works. Lets face it. America and Britain has a poor school system. I feel private makes it ok for those who have to not worry about it. Like the politicians who send their kids to private schools. I agree with everyone who says bring the level of state/public schools up...but then ban the private ones. Even those religious ones ( unlike Finland ). America and England just forgets its poor children. Private education encourages it.
    And yet, objectively and undeniably, this will put a massive financial burden on the school system. It is undeniable. Schools will be more underfunded if you throw that many more kids into it. That making private schools common increases the quality of public schools is not difficult logic. You seem determined on finding a way to drag people on top down. Why? Why is that your first solution? Why do you jump so quickly to destruction and violence? (Saying people can't send their children to private school is inherently violent. You are using threats of force to say what people can and cannot do with their own resources, and you will point a gun at anyone who defies it.) Why not try and find other solutions that raise people up, instead of drag people down? And your claims about how private schools create classiscm are themselves entirely based on classicism. They lack any substance other than anti-wealthy rhetoric.
    Private schools are all about class....they separate those who can afford from those who can't. As I wrote in earlier posts, that should wait until children leave school.

    Also your point about dragging standards down....when Finland great schools are Free? Better than most of Americas private ones.
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  89. #189  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....Considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving Forward?

    Congress' Kids Absent from Public Schools | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)

    Its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what I suggested....I have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with It? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    So your perspective is that if wealthy people's children had to go to the same schools as poor people, wealthy people would lobby to improve public schools?

    I totally agree that the children of any government agent should be in public school (so long as their security can be guaranteed.) They're government agents, so the system they create should be the system they must endure.

    But as for wealthy people in general, I'm not seeing your point. Those other rich people still pay for public school even if their own children aren't attending. The progressive tax system guarantees the upper middle class ones will pay more than the rest of us.

    If you're worried about the extremely rich, then are you also planning to deny their childrens' visas? If your own country's private schools aren't allowed to educate them, then they'll simply put them on an airplane and send them to a foreign country to attend private school there.
    We don't need private schools. Children shouldn't be segregated because of wealth in schools. It creates division from the word go. Children do not chose where they are born. We as a society should provide for them equally. Private schools create class and divide based upon wealth. Let the adults do that after school. Lets at least give our children equality not based on wealth in schools. My point is for the future. Also let them go abroad. I would rather my kids have a free education Finnish style. Its the teaching methods that need improving. Not the bricks and morter.
    But your idea objectively makes public schools more overcrowded and have less money. Your view is willing to increase ignorance in the world in order to increase equality. If that is your philosophy, okay, fine, just admit that. You haven't once provided an argument on why quality of education would increase. How could you? Your proposal can't do that. And many many arguments have shown other proposals could create higher quality education which you have had no response to other than there is still inequality. If that is your philosophy, okay, but your idea absolutely decreases knowledge and increases ignorance and further underfunds public schools. How can you avoid that? I'm pretty sure you can't.
    The point is....Private education doesn't raise standards of education. I believe it increases ignorance in children. Not knowledge. Absolutely the opposite of what you say. It segregates children based on their wealth. Your argument of further underfunded schools is based on how America funds them in the first place. Finland seems to deal with it ok. You don't. Its also as I pointed out about the way you teach. The way the school works. Lets face it. America and Britain has a poor school system. I feel private makes it ok for those who have to not worry about it. Like the politicians who send their kids to private schools. I agree with everyone who says bring the level of state/public schools up...but then ban the private ones. Even those religious ones ( unlike Finland ). America and England just forgets its poor children. Private education encourages it.
    And yet, objectively and undeniably, this will put a massive financial burden on the school system. It is undeniable. Schools will be more underfunded if you throw that many more kids into it. That making private schools common increases the quality of public schools is not difficult logic. You seem determined on finding a way to drag people on top down. Why? Why is that your first solution? Why do you jump so quickly to destruction and violence? (Saying people can't send their children to private school is inherently violent. You are using threats of force to say what people can and cannot do with their own resources, and you will point a gun at anyone who defies it.) Why not try and find other solutions that raise people up, instead of drag people down? And your claims about how private schools create classiscm are themselves entirely based on classicism. They lack any substance other than anti-wealthy rhetoric.
    Private schools are all about class....they separate those who can afford from those who can't. As I wrote in earlier posts, that should wait until children leave school.

    Also your point about dragging standards down....when Finland great schools are Free? Better than most of Americas private ones.
    And a colony on the moon could make good use of low gravity. What's your point?
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  90. #190  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    Imagine: if you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (And how to present an argument.)
    Are Americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | Sadhbh Walshe | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    America will learn possibly like the French did.....your equality and the U.ks is becoming a joke.
    That has to do with the lack of opportunity NOT private schools.
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  91. #191  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Because I feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....I feel that every child's funding should be part of one system.
    Private schools do not impact public schools FUNDING. Private schools are funded completely privately NO PUBLIC FUNDING IS USED FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS!
    Last edited by grmpysmrf; May 7th, 2014 at 01:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Those other rich people still pay for public school even if their own children aren't attending.
    Yes! even if they don't have kids they pay into the educational system.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    The progressive tax system guarantees the upper middle class ones will pay more than the rest of us.
    except that they don't. that money goes to lawyers to get them out of it rather than the country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    I want to make education equal for all children by quality and not because of daddies wealth..
    My god you are thick. I don't know how many different ways anyone can type it. Public education isn't even equal. PRIVATE SCHOOLS DO NOT MEAN BETTER QUALITY EDUCATION.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    We don't need private schools.
    We don't need Ferraris

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Children shouldn't be segregated because of wealth in schools.
    Well now you really are screwing over public schools because rich people don't live in regular neighborhoods they live in wealthy neighborhoods. So, now you need a public school for that wealthy neighborhood and now guess what you have? a publicly funded PRIVATE school. because poor people don't live in that neighborhood they don't go to that school. get a clue already!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    It creates division from the word go.
    you think classicism won't exist if we get rid of private schools? you are out of your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Children do not chose where they are born.
    Which is why we have public schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    We as a society should provide for them equally.
    Which is what PUBLIC schools attempt to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Private schools create class and divide based upon wealth.
    No they don't but neighborhoods do! lets ban wealthy neighborhoods and gated communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Let the adults do that after school.
    Yes let those parents undo the education of the public school

    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Lets at least give our children equality not based on wealth in schools.
    Then fund the public schools not destroy private schools
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  95. #195  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    private schools are all about class....they separate those who can afford from those who can't. As i wrote in earlier posts, that should wait until children leave school.
    so are public schools. You don't think that the poor kids know who the rich kids are at public schools?
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  96. #196  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Then look at the famous and best university places filled with private kids. Wealth buys you more spots....that is unfair to children. WHO ARE INNOCENT OF WHERE THEY ARE BORN!!!Did you chose your Parents?


    If a child has a naturally high IQ, is that not also the result of being born to parents who carried the DNA?

    Why would your argument apply only to wealth? Why not apply it to all "accidents of birth"? Where's the line you are going to draw in the sand?

    Why is good DNA different to you than good wealth status? Aren't they both random luck? Aren't they both things the "child is innocent" of having chosen?


    Schools should be at the highest level for all.
    Nobody disagrees that all schools should have infinity funding. It's just not possible because there is only a finite amount of wealth out there.



    All of them.....all schools need to be the best they can.
    Again. No disagreement.

    All people should put into the same system for all kids. This is my last post on this subject....If nobody can see an alternative to the school systems we have, then its gonna be wealthy private school kids getting all the top places forever...I personally would be happy to ban private schools because it promotes class segregation in children, in education, that then goes into politics, business, law. Yes connections do, but that's because we allow those connections to go into schools. We should be looking to get the best from all our children. Not allow the wealthy to keep the best in education for themselves. That's unfair to innocent children.

    Since you're basically alone, with everyone attacking your idea - I guess it makes sense to give up.

    Usually I try to take the side of whoever is outnumbered on these forums, if I can at all see eye to eye with them, but here I really can't. I'm sorry.

    It's sometimes hard to accept the world isn't ideal, and that you can't just wave a magic wand and make it ideal. I know the public education system sucks because I endured it, but I wouldn't want to deny someone else the chance to escape from it. If they have the means to escape, then I'll cheer for them. I didn't.







    Yes my idea may seem a pipe dream,
    Yes. You've hit the nail right on the head.

    That is the one and only problem with your perspective. But it's a really big problem.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Then look at the famous and best university places filled with private kids. Wealth buys you more spots....that is unfair to children. WHO ARE INNOCENT OF WHERE THEY ARE BORN!!!Did you chose your Parents?


    If a child has a naturally high IQ, is that not also the result of being born to parents who carried the DNA?

    Why would your argument apply only to wealth? Why not apply it to all "accidents of birth"? Where's the line you are going to draw in the sand?

    Why is good DNA different to you than good wealth status? Aren't they both random luck? Aren't they both things the "child is innocent" of having chosen?


    Schools should be at the highest level for all.
    Nobody disagrees that all schools should have infinity funding. It's just not possible because there is only a finite amount of wealth out there.



    All of them.....all schools need to be the best they can.
    Again. No disagreement.

    All people should put into the same system for all kids. This is my last post on this subject....If nobody can see an alternative to the school systems we have, then its gonna be wealthy private school kids getting all the top places forever...I personally would be happy to ban private schools because it promotes class segregation in children, in education, that then goes into politics, business, law. Yes connections do, but that's because we allow those connections to go into schools. We should be looking to get the best from all our children. Not allow the wealthy to keep the best in education for themselves. That's unfair to innocent children.

    Since you're basically alone, with everyone attacking your idea - I guess it makes sense to give up.

    Usually I try to take the side of whoever is outnumbered on these forums, if I can at all see eye to eye with them, but here I really can't. I'm sorry.

    It's sometimes hard to accept the world isn't ideal, and that you can't just wave a magic wand and make it ideal. I know the public education system sucks because I endured it, but I wouldn't want to deny someone else the chance to escape from it. If they have the means to escape, then I'll cheer for them. I didn't.







    Yes my idea may seem a pipe dream,
    Yes. You've hit the nail right on the head.

    That is the one and only problem with your perspective. But it's a really big problem.

    Its not a problem with my perspective. It seems like a problem with Americans perspective. I get post calling me dumb because I point out that I think it is unhealthy for children to be brought up in schooling systems that group them together based on their parents wealth. I point out that Finlands schooling system is mostly free of private schools ( apart from some religious schools ) and their kids are smarter in almost all subjects on average than Americans.

    What type of person doesn't see that grouping children in schools based on wealth doesn't segregate them? Are they Smart? Yes banning private schools may be a pipe dream...In America...Not in Finland...( although they haven't done it for religious schools ).

    Its most of your points that have nothing in them....just going over the same unfounded points. Nothing about the effects on the children's minds going to posh expensive privileged schools. Nothing about the values it breeds in them. The class distinctions it breeds in them.

    Some say wealth segregation happens in schools anyway...yes but at least they mix . Especially the poor boys with the rich girls. In private posh schools they are kept in a bubble away from the rest of society. Then by all accounts end up in the best positions in life. Its seems in America and the U.k, in our politics. How can they say they speak for all when they are separated from all since Birth???

    Lets just agree to dis-agree....this thread has run its course and is going round in circles. How many of those who call me dumb ( lol ) send their kids to private school I Wonder? Also its not about infinite funding....its about teaching methods, the way our school system works....we could actually save money and get more from our kids if schools were managed better in the first place. Saving us billions on crime, jobs and so on, in the schools America forgets. I feel the goal of any education system in the end should be to ban private schools. However long it takes to get there.
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  98. #198  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sowz37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lynx_fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    imagine: If you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (and how to present an argument.)
    are americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | sadhbh walshe | comment is free | theguardian.com

    well duh! No ones is arguing against that point.

    How do you think an article that doesn't even mention private schools supports your idea to get rid of them?
    because i feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....i feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving forward?

    congress' kids absent from public schools | intellectual takeout (ito)

    its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what i suggested....i have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with it? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    your argument hinges entirely upon favoring equality over human knowledge. Your points support that implicitly, but you deny it when it is brought up. If you think it is worth compounding human ignorance to make more equality, say so. If not, modify your position.

    Here is a better solution.

    Do not mess with private schools. People who fight for the lowering of humanity look at people on top and say how can i drag them down. People who want to raise them up say how can i bring everyone else up there? So leave private schools alone.

    Instead, make public schools have equal funding. Don't fund public schools based on local budgets. Right now? The education equality you talk about? It is worse in the public sector than anywhere else. So why are you trusting public schools to make things more equal, when they make them more unequal than anything? Your own system is broken. Fix the system before you destroy a functional system. Don't destroy something you don't like until you have an actual alternative.

    Here is the thing that is true by numbers and economics. for every private school that gets shut down, your public schools should get worse. For every private school out there, your public schools should get better.

    as much as many people argue that all programs ever are woefully underfunded and all programs need a ton more funds, it is total nonsense. The government is not magic. It cannot make things happen without money. And past a certain point, a point most states have already passed, taxing more reduces government funds. That's how it works. There is an optimal taxation amount before it becomes counter-intuitive. So we have a limited supply of money. We can't just increase education budgets. It doesn't work. Equalizing school funding is a start, but now all public schools are just somewhat underfunded instead of some having almost no funding at all. But that is the best part about equalizing public school funding. It will in all likelihood increase the amount of money each school has per kid. Because there will be fewer kids in the system. 1000 dollars split five ways goes twice as far as 1000 dollars split ten ways. And that is exactly what will happen.

    Right now, people with money have better public school options so they are happy keeping their kids in public school. People with money will not want their kids to go to a school that is as poor as everyone else, so they will take their kids out and send them to a private school. Don't try and stop them! Let them! Encourage them! The government only has so much money, but as long as people are willing to spend money above and beyond their taxation on education, education over all has more money! For every child that goes to private school, the public option now has more money to spend per kid! You might say, "some schools get a certain amount of money for each kid!" but that comes from the overall money spent on education. That is x amount of dollars someone else doesn't get.

    Here's the thing. Every time a kid leaves the public school system for the private one, there is the potential for the public school to bridge that gap. Every time a kid goes from the private school system to the public school system, the public school system gets worse.

    Your ideal? A world with equality in education? It is impossible to achieve. But the closest thing to that? The closest way to achieve equality is for the system to have as much private schooling as possible, leaving public school for those who truly can't afford it but it will have a small enough group of kids that the public option will actually have enough money to compete with the private schools. Once again, over-regulation increases inequality.

    Your proposal will mean less money spent on education. It is completely inescapable. It is pure math. All the kids in private school now? Thrown into public school? That money spent on private schools doesn't go to public schools instead. That isn't how it works. And the people aren't just a cash cow to tax whatever you want. A country can only spend as much money as they have, and when they spend more, very bad things will happen.
    i am not sure whether it is so much about funding in schools and more about the way pupils are taught. The thing that worries me about private schools is that it creates class within children. I go to the most expensive school and that makes me better than you. I think it helps separate society or adds to the separation in society.
    We should learn from countries such as finland. Its mostly free and much better than americas public system and private ( mostly ). Its the methods of teaching in schools that need changing. I respect your ideas on this subject but i go with countries like finland. They do it better than us and don't have private schools. I was waiting for someone to bring up finland but instead got loads of what about parents freedom of choice?..or why drag schools down to state levels?...why don't we just change our methods of teaching??? One where all children benefit. One without the need of private school. Maybe people like strange should think how he wasted all that money on private education. Also don't get a samsung tablet to write on this website...it drives me mad:-):-)


    nonsense!
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  99. #199  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sowz37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lynx_fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text
    imagine: If you hadn't been deprived of an education by them rich folks, you might have found out about paragraphs. (and how to present an argument.)
    are americans dumb? No, it's the inequality, stupid | sadhbh walshe | comment is free | theguardian.com

    well duh! No ones is arguing against that point.

    How do you think an article that doesn't even mention private schools supports your idea to get rid of them?
    because i feel that private schooling keeps the wealthiest from being bothered about the funding public schools get....i feel that every child's funding should be part of one system. Not one that the wealthiest of society can escape from....considering so many of your leaders send their kids to private schools. How can one expect them to be bothered about the poorest children in society. Also should children be segregated educationally by the wealth of their parents. Could this be something that keeps in-equality in society from moving forward?

    congress' kids absent from public schools | intellectual takeout (ito)

    its is unfair for children not to have equal rights within education.

    Also this was what i suggested....i have the facts to make an opinion on the subject....do you think we will ever move away from private education as a species or be stuck with it? Is there an alternative?.....not one person has even debated it.....just attacked my opinion.....look at my original post.....
    your argument hinges entirely upon favoring equality over human knowledge. Your points support that implicitly, but you deny it when it is brought up. If you think it is worth compounding human ignorance to make more equality, say so. If not, modify your position.

    Here is a better solution.

    Do not mess with private schools. People who fight for the lowering of humanity look at people on top and say how can i drag them down. People who want to raise them up say how can i bring everyone else up there? So leave private schools alone.

    Instead, make public schools have equal funding. Don't fund public schools based on local budgets. Right now? The education equality you talk about? It is worse in the public sector than anywhere else. So why are you trusting public schools to make things more equal, when they make them more unequal than anything? Your own system is broken. Fix the system before you destroy a functional system. Don't destroy something you don't like until you have an actual alternative.

    Here is the thing that is true by numbers and economics. for every private school that gets shut down, your public schools should get worse. For every private school out there, your public schools should get better.

    as much as many people argue that all programs ever are woefully underfunded and all programs need a ton more funds, it is total nonsense. The government is not magic. It cannot make things happen without money. And past a certain point, a point most states have already passed, taxing more reduces government funds. That's how it works. There is an optimal taxation amount before it becomes counter-intuitive. So we have a limited supply of money. We can't just increase education budgets. It doesn't work. Equalizing school funding is a start, but now all public schools are just somewhat underfunded instead of some having almost no funding at all. But that is the best part about equalizing public school funding. It will in all likelihood increase the amount of money each school has per kid. Because there will be fewer kids in the system. 1000 dollars split five ways goes twice as far as 1000 dollars split ten ways. And that is exactly what will happen.

    Right now, people with money have better public school options so they are happy keeping their kids in public school. People with money will not want their kids to go to a school that is as poor as everyone else, so they will take their kids out and send them to a private school. Don't try and stop them! Let them! Encourage them! The government only has so much money, but as long as people are willing to spend money above and beyond their taxation on education, education over all has more money! For every child that goes to private school, the public option now has more money to spend per kid! You might say, "some schools get a certain amount of money for each kid!" but that comes from the overall money spent on education. That is x amount of dollars someone else doesn't get.

    Here's the thing. Every time a kid leaves the public school system for the private one, there is the potential for the public school to bridge that gap. Every time a kid goes from the private school system to the public school system, the public school system gets worse.

    Your ideal? A world with equality in education? It is impossible to achieve. But the closest thing to that? The closest way to achieve equality is for the system to have as much private schooling as possible, leaving public school for those who truly can't afford it but it will have a small enough group of kids that the public option will actually have enough money to compete with the private schools. Once again, over-regulation increases inequality.

    Your proposal will mean less money spent on education. It is completely inescapable. It is pure math. All the kids in private school now? Thrown into public school? That money spent on private schools doesn't go to public schools instead. That isn't how it works. And the people aren't just a cash cow to tax whatever you want. A country can only spend as much money as they have, and when they spend more, very bad things will happen.
    i am not sure whether it is so much about funding in schools and more about the way pupils are taught. The thing that worries me about private schools is that it creates class within children. I go to the most expensive school and that makes me better than you. I think it helps separate society or adds to the separation in society.
    We should learn from countries such as finland. Its mostly free and much better than americas public system and private ( mostly ). Its the methods of teaching in schools that need changing. I respect your ideas on this subject but i go with countries like finland. They do it better than us and don't have private schools. I was waiting for someone to bring up finland but instead got loads of what about parents freedom of choice?..or why drag schools down to state levels?...why don't we just change our methods of teaching??? One where all children benefit. One without the need of private school. Maybe people like strange should think how he wasted all that money on private education. Also don't get a samsung tablet to write on this website...it drives me mad:-):-)


    nonsense!
    No babe, you talk nonsense. Go look up the best education systems in the world. You'll find Americans are one the stupid ones. I prove how Finland has very few private schools ( just religious schools ) and they are on average smarter than Americans. I guess your posts prove how bad its got in America.
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  100. #200  
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    [QUOTE=jonio;563129][QUOTE=babe;563123][quote=jonio;563010][quote=sowz37;562981][quote=jonio;562953][quote=lynx_fox;562942]
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonio View Post
    wall-o-text



    nonsense!
    No babe, you talk nonsense. Go look up the best education systems in the world. You'll find Americans are one the stupid ones. I prove how Finland has very few private schools ( just religious schools ) and they are on average smarter than Americans. I guess your posts prove how bad its got in America.
    I would beg to differ.

    However you definitely have unfounded issues with America and it's school system.

    As I said initially. My kids went to public schools....I went private till High School and then I also attended a public school. My spouse attended Public Schools.


    I think you need to broaden your research.....not all of America's public schools are perfect, but many are excellent.

    And funding has nothing to do with education sometimes. TEACHERS and PARENTS DO!

    So I repeat.

    You are full of unsubstantiated NONSENSE.

    Aloha
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