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  1. #1 Class and Society 
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    $#&cents


    Last edited by umbradiago; March 20th, 2014 at 02:02 AM. Reason: train de-railed, no injuries
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    Add some detail including your own ideas or this will be trashed for lack of substance.


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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    $#&cents
    I completely concur.
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    Fair enough. I was going to go on a working-class rant, then thought better of it. I will take-up where I left off. The US citizenry like to boast that America is a classless society, or aims to be, at the least. This is a crock of...stuff. Our mother country, Britain, provided Americans with British common law, generally a good thing. But, Anglophile that I am and will always be, England retains it's Royal family and all the tradition it contains, which is mixed, good and bad. The Queen is without political power, and justly so. But England remains terribly divided by social class as lingering result of Monarchy. America's founding was based upon the idea that social class was archaic and undemocratic as regards equality. A noble concept but utterly false. We have traded monarchy for oligarchy. The divide between the "haves" and the "have-nots" grows wider all the time as the standard for social position and class has been eroded and now is determined by money. Gordon Gecko has replaced the common man. I am a common man. I say this without anger, envy, or resentment. But, as I've worked by the sweat of my brow for 45 years, I have seen the purchasing power of my trade remain static while the middle class grew and the ownership class enriched themselves. If the working-class ever organizes, we could right this wrong. But the wealthy do not want others to join their country club. I wouldn't want to, I am working-class. You know us, we're the class which does most of the work. Every dollar I ever made was on the square. How many others can say that ? I inherited no titles and no money, and don't ask for either. Just a goddamned chance to provide a decent living standard. Don't think the Bastielle can't bet taken again. The US has made money the new monarchy and manned their walls with hired goons. I hope I haven't offended anybody. My intent was to offend everybody. Guess I'll find out.
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    $#&cents
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    The US citizenry like to boast that America is a classless society, or aims to be, at the least.
    We do? Last I heard, we were a capitalist nation built upon the backs of the lower class with the successes reaped by the wealthy few. And our divide grows every day. The middle class is spiraling toward extinction.
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    Who said I wasn't a capitalist ? I am. So is Warren Buffet and he says much the same thing I just wrote. Wanna' call HIM a non-capitalist ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    The US citizenry like to boast that America is a classless society, or aims to be, at the least.
    We do? Last I heard, we were a capitalist nation built upon the backs of the lower class with the successes reaped by the wealthy few. And our divide grows every day. The middle class is spiraling toward extinction.
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    Someone said you weren't a capitalist? I certainly don't remember saying that.
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    Consider the current immigration issue. This nation is badly in need of infrastructure repair and a working-class yearning for work. Why cannot these two factors combine ? Because the wealthy hoard their wealth and control the levers of power and, so, money. Hoarded money does NOTHING for an economy. Ask Adam Smith.
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    No, you didn't. Sorry if I hit you with buckshot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Someone said you weren't a capitalist? I certainly don't remember saying that.
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    That enough detail ? 'Cause I got more.
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    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Consider the current immigration issue. This nation is badly in need of infrastructure repair and a working-class yearning for work. Why cannot these two factors combine ? Because the wealthy hoard their wealth and control the levers of power and, so, money. Hoarded money does NOTHING for an economy. Ask Adam Smith.
    Sure, lemme go knock on the tombstone and see if anyone answers. Have you read Adam Smith? In my limited understanding (Wealth of Nations) mostly concerned currency itself, not the well-being of people. But, it's been a while since I browsed through it.
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    Look, if you've got the solution to our economic problems you could rule the free world. From my perspective, the problem isn't that we can't come up with good ideas, but that we cannot implement them. We have turned money into the ultimate goal and created a nation driven by greed. How do you spread the wealth when everyone wants it all?
    Last edited by Flick Montana; March 22nd, 2014 at 06:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
    No. He's with me at the National Anonymous Anarcho-Syndicalist Sod convention, or "NAASS" for short, as in "That's a naass economic philosophy you got there."
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
    He's suspended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Consider the current immigration issue. This nation is badly in need of infrastructure repair and a working-class yearning for work. Why cannot these two factors combine ? Because the wealthy hoard their wealth and control the levers of power and, so, money. Hoarded money does NOTHING for an economy. Ask Adam Smith.
    Sure, lemme go knock on the tombstone and see if anyone answers. Have you read Adam Smith? In my limited understanding (Wealth of Nations) mostly concerned currency itself, not the well-being of people. But, it's been a while since I browsed through it.
    Yes, Smith wrote about money, about wealth. I Only offer something better to DO WITH THE STUFF !
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Consider the current immigration issue. This nation is badly in need of infrastructure repair and a working-class yearning for work. Why cannot these two factors combine ? Because the wealthy hoard their wealth and control the levers of power and, so, money. Hoarded money does NOTHING for an economy. Ask Adam Smith.
    Sure, lemme go knock on the tombstone and see if anyone answers. Have you read Adam Smith? In my limited understanding (Wealth of Nations) mostly concerned currency itself, not the well-being of people. But, it's been a while since I browsed through it.
    Yes, Smith wrote about money, about wealth. I Only offer something better to DO WITH THE STUFF !
    So can most individuals. Until you find a way to successfully implement your ideas in a practical manner, this conversation is moot.
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    And no, I never read Wealth of Nations. I only know "about" it. But I have read "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", and we are on that path. We arm ourselves militarily until we become impoverished, but to hell with the working-class poor. Pride comes before the fall.
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    This place is beginning to smell like a snobitorium. I used to want to be a scientist. Now, not so much.
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    It's moot 'cause YOU say it is ? How much money did daddy leave YOU ? Not enough to buy compassion, I can see that. Carry your own fucking golf clubs.
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Consider the current immigration issue. This nation is badly in need of infrastructure repair and a working-class yearning for work. Why cannot these two factors combine ? Because the wealthy hoard their wealth and control the levers of power and, so, money. Hoarded money does NOTHING for an economy. Ask Adam Smith.
    Sure, lemme go knock on the tombstone and see if anyone answers. Have you read Adam Smith? In my limited understanding (Wealth of Nations) mostly concerned currency itself, not the well-being of people. But, it's been a while since I browsed through it.
    Yes, Smith wrote about money, about wealth. I Only offer something better to DO WITH THE STUFF !
    So can most individuals. Until you find a way to successfully implement your ideas in a practical manner, this conversation is moot.
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    There is at least one thing money cannot buy: perspective. If you don't get this, you have too much at stake to be honest.
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    I used to think "street smarts" was something uneducated people invented. Like, the wheel, for instance. The academic view is only one view of life. It's a good view but lacks....perspective. Some things are not found in books. Like, what is the smell of greed ? The academic world ought to put it's intellect to work on social, egalitarian causes, instead of disdain for the unenlightened. That may include yourselves, sometimes.
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    Fine. Have your people call my people. Or just call me directly, I don't screen my calls like the self-important. Got awfully quite. Did I cross some social boundary ? Good. I don't believe in them.

    Paint your own goddamned house.
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    Agreed. Your understanding is limited.
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Consider the current immigration issue. This nation is badly in need of infrastructure repair and a working-class yearning for work. Why cannot these two factors combine ? Because the wealthy hoard their wealth and control the levers of power and, so, money. Hoarded money does NOTHING for an economy. Ask Adam Smith.
    Sure, lemme go knock on the tombstone and see if anyone answers. Have you read Adam Smith? In my limited understanding (Wealth of Nations) mostly concerned currency itself, not the well-being of people. But, it's been a while since I browsed through it.
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    You are aware that a discussion forum isn't meant to be used as a tweeting platform right?
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    "Snobitorium" is not in Webster's,...yet. When it IS, somebody will claim it as his coinage. I stole it from Bill Murray. Put it on, see if it fits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    You are aware that a discussion forum isn't meant to be used as a tweeting platform right?
    Yes. Are you aware I don't give a fuck ? You think this would be the first dump I was tossed-out of ? Sorry, I thought Truth was valued, here. I can see that's "relative" to whose ox is being gored. Mmm...ox meat !
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    Da Schnieb is right; some here are so steeped in academic myopia they can't imagine those lessons life offers OUTSIDE of books and equations. Any of you know how to hit a slider ? Didn't think so. Easy outs.
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    I got a basketball game to watch. Go back to contemplating your naval. No, I don't mean navel; I mean warships. Okay ? Capice ?
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    Thanks for adding more detail--though I'm not certain how it relates to psychology.

    I tend to agree with much of your post. The US does tend to see itself as a place where people will rise and fall to a social class reflecting according to their merits, but nothing could be further from the truth. The reality is the US has become one of the last social-economical mobile nations in the developed world--if you are born to poor, you will likely remain poor regardless of potential; if you are born to rich parents, you'll likely continue to be rich all your life. There's a lot of reasons, this being just a few:

    -Education is almost entire locally financed, not far removed from the 19th century models--this creates huge gaps in quality of teachers, text books and educational infrastructure depending on where a child grows up. It is probably the number one problem related to socio-economic class mobility.

    -Our health care system doesn't take sufficient care of the poor. A sad fact is many preventable problems in children can be identified and mitigated prior to first grade, but simple aren't. So kids arrive in first grade with serious problems because it's the first time a real expert has seen the child--unfortunately it's often too late and not nearly as effective by that point. Children to poor families are put at a disadvantage.

    -Our social security system, is likewise very regressive--it is almost a certainty that a poor minority won't get his contribution back, while almost a certainty that a rich white person will.

    -Our tax structure and social programs aren't nearly progressive enough. A blue color worker who often works a risky job (such as I did as a commercial fishermen and often as a Soldier) pays the social security and medicare head tax+income taxes while most upper middle class and wealthier make more of their income from non physically risking investment capital gains which completely avoid social security, medicare as well as being taxed at a lower rate (I've made a killing the past five years through investments at no physical risk at all--yep it sure beats the hell out of ducking from mortar attacks).

    -Our criminal justice system and associated voting laws are heavily stacked against poor minorities with high incarcerations rates and laws that stigmatize them for life by not allowing them to vote, or get a good paying job--and than the rich have the gall to criticize the social problems, which in large part the rich created. (most simply have no clue about poverty other than by some abstraction)

    --
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    And no, I never read Wealth of Nations. I only know "about" it. But I have read "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", and we are on that path. We arm ourselves militarily until we become impoverished, but to hell with the working-class poor. Pride comes before the fall.
    While I agree that the military budget could be cut by a huge margin (as much as half) and still easily meet it's Constitutional requirement to defend the nation, it's somewhat irresponsible to ignore the even larger social programs, growing by a huge rates, which aren't even in the Constitution.

    --
    I also somewhat disagree with your framing this as American always being about class freedom. In reality, while we rejected pure hereditary power such a s kings, lords etc, the framers were among the wealthiest in America and our system largely established to preserve that relationship by excluding huge number of Southern minorities from voting, no votes for Senators nor the president (still true). And it has always been true that a large fraction of federal representatives and senators have been from long lines of rich and politically dynastic families--some holding power for more than half a century.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; March 21st, 2014 at 10:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
    He's suspended.
    Really ? Imagine my surprise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    You are aware that a discussion forum isn't meant to be used as a tweeting platform right?
    I don't tweet. This ain't idle fucking gossip; I'm talking about social inequity. The view is a little different from outside the castle walls. If you think the playing field is level, you're either deluded or the beneficiary of the inequitable social classist bullshit Limbaugh and other pin-heads espouse. I'm not an anarchist, like Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, or Tom Paine. Not so far, anyway. The wealthy have their tax-shelters, investment 'schemes, off-shore accounts, and inside information and a tax system which favors those who don't need any favors. The contempt with which the working-poor are held is abominable. We fill the jails and for-profit prisons for often victimless crimes. Blacks are incarcerated at a rate 20 times higher than whites while the rich build gated communities. We roof your houses, mow your lawns, tend your kids, drive the cabs, wash your soiled linen and then are derided and blamed for our shiftless-ness. Yea, I know the smell of classist arrogance well. We suffer ill health, early death, and do the work others won't, or can't, do. And we do it for bare subsistence wages. Wanna' be a millionaire ? Great. Just start with $ 900,000 dollars and it's a cinch. Try starting with nothing. Some have and done very well starting from scratch. Many cannot; they're just trying to survive. And the contempt shown them by those who have found success in America is disgustingly real.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    You are aware that a discussion forum isn't meant to be used as a tweeting platform right?
    I don't tweet.
    Your sequential and revisitational posts (sometimes without addressing anyone in particular) must have had me fooled.

    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    I'm talking about social inequity.

    ...
    Is there anything specific you would like to related back to the social sciences of psychology? I mean, is there something you would like to ask about why organisms do the things they do?
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    I haven't revised anything. I was addressing EVERYONE who thinks inherited wealth, a long tradition of holding the reins of power, and huge disparities in opportunity based on a money and social standing are things of the past. They are not. The vast majority of incarcerated persons are black. Is the behavior which sent them to jail based only upon some innate propensity for criminal behavior, or has it more to do with the scant opportunities allowed them and upon racist attitudes by police, the courts, and society at large ? I know what I think about these questions and I know why I think them. How do you explain this without acknowledging racist attitudes toward blacks and other minorities who lack access to power ?
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    You are aware that a discussion forum isn't meant to be used as a tweeting platform right?
    I don't tweet.
    Your sequential and revisitational posts (sometimes without addressing anyone in particular) must have had me fooled.

    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    I'm talking about social inequity.

    ...
    Is there anything specific you would like to related back to the social sciences of psychology? I mean, is there something you would like to ask about why organisms do the things they do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Your sequential and revisitational posts (sometimes without addressing anyone in particular) must have had me fooled.
    I haven't revised anything.
    I said revisitational, not revised; such as post #4, 16, 24, 27, 32.

    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    I was addressing EVERYONE who thinks inherited wealth, a long tradition of holding the reins of power, and huge disparities in opportunity based on a money and social standing are things of the past. They are not.
    Is there anyone here who holds that position? If yes, please name them. If no, you have no audience so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    The vast majority of incarcerated persons are black.
    I suspect you have a specific country in mind, since this does not seem to be the case in the country where I'm from and some other countries I've visited. Is the gist of your words applied on your local national scale, or can it be evident in other countries as well?


    Edits: Are you attempting to explain or seeking an explanation as to why the human race exhibit attitudes for inequality or at the very least do not the things that might alleviate inequality?
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
    He's suspended.
    Really ? Imagine my surprise.
    Yeah, he flipped his lid. Sort of like what you were starting to do in this thread.

    Just calm down and make your point. If you can address the issue of building a healthy economy, go for it. It's not necessary to go on the warpath.
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    A nation's economic health ought not measured by it's GDP. It should be measured by how it treats it's LEAST fortunate. In the US, this is BADLY, VERY BADLY. Sorry for my misunderstanding some
    responses. Warren Buffet says his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he, and that this is wrong. Investors send their money to work and pay 13% on profit from these. Any working-class
    shlubb is taxed, on his or her PHYSICAL LABOR, at a much higher rate. White-collar crime is seldom punished and when it is, the criminal is sent to a "prison" with a golf course. The poor, often guilty of simply being poor, are
    charged, convicted, and sent to overcrowded shit holes. Felons loose their right to vote. Wealthy investors profit from privately-run jails. Politicians prattle on about the needs and concerns of
    the middle-class. Where is the voice of the working-class heard ? Where ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    A nation's economic health ought not measured by it's GDP. It should be measured by how it treats it's LEAST fortunate. In the US, this is BADLY, VERY BADLY. Sorry for my misunderstanding some
    responses. Warren Buffet says his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he, and that this is wrong. Investors send their money to work and pay 13% on profit from these. Any working-class
    shlubb is taxed, on his or her PHYSICAL LABOR, at a much higher rate. White-collar crime is seldom punished and when it is, the criminal is sent to a "prison" with a golf course. The poor, often guilty of simply being poor, are
    charged, convicted, and sent to overcrowded shit holes. Felons loose their right to vote. Wealthy investors profit from privately-run jails. Politicians prattle on about the needs and concerns of
    the middle-class. Where is the voice of the working-class heard ? Where ?
    You're just stating problems we're all aware exist. The problem is implementation. How do we realistically correct the income disparity? That is the million dollar question.
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    By re-structuring the tax codes. By decriminalizing victimless crime. By investing in public education. By eliminating voter suppression. By government investment in job-creation for public works. By recognizing the government's duty to "provide for the general welfare". By treating mental illness as a medical problem, not a legal one. By redistributing wealth. By caring about others. By giving the poor not a handout, but a hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    By re-structuring the tax codes. By decriminalizing victimless crime. By investing in public education. By eliminating voter suppression. By government investment in job-creation for public works. By recognizing the government's duty to "provide for the general welfare". By treating mental illness as a medical problem, not a legal one. By redistributing wealth. By caring about others. By giving the poor not a handout, but a hand.
    Yes, but HOW?

    For instance, how do you fight voter discrimination when people are legally allowed to move districts around and change voting places and times? How do you close the loopholes that result from closing the loopholes.

    What you're saying initially is, "We have a disease and we need to cure it!" I'm asking, "How do we cure it?" You're responding with, "By finding a cure!"

    Your solutions aren't accounting for the fact that this isn't a utopia. You're proposing we use the establishment to fight the establishment. Institute laws against the powerful and vastly wealthy even though those are the people who are shaping the system. You're idealizing your solutions too much.

    I'm not trying to discourage you at all, but I want you to fully understand how incredibly difficult it is to make changes in an established system like ours. It's not as simple as, "Implement this" or "Implement that".
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    You are quite correct, Flick. I'm not being specific enough. Gerrymandering must be made illegal; it is just a method of disenfranchising certain groups and jerry-rigging the popular vote.
    Our constitution clearly expressed how House members are to be chosen-by state and county populations, not by drawing arbitrary lines based upon tax bases.
    The cure is in applying the Constitution as intended.
    "We, the people" should be taken literally. Not We the corporate interests or We the highest tax bracket.
    I propose we the people become more actively engaged in the political decision-making process.
    Educate our citizenry to understand and demand their Constitutional rights.
    Aggressively prosecute any and all entities which set out to deprive the people of their liberties.
    Use the Justice Department in the pursuit of that which it's name identifies.
    Speak truth to power and demand accountability from our elected leaders.
    Protect free speech and freedom of assembly.
    No religious litmus test for public office.
    This is a start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    A nation's economic health ought not measured by it's GDP. It should be measured by how it treats it's LEAST fortunate. In the US, this is BADLY, VERY BADLY. Sorry for my misunderstanding some
    responses. Warren Buffet says his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he, and that this is wrong. Investors send their money to work and pay 13% on profit from these. Any working-class
    shlubb is taxed, on his or her PHYSICAL LABOR, at a much higher rate. White-collar crime is seldom punished and when it is, the criminal is sent to a "prison" with a golf course. The poor, often guilty of simply being poor, are
    charged, convicted, and sent to overcrowded shit holes. Felons loose their right to vote. Wealthy investors profit from privately-run jails. Politicians prattle on about the needs and concerns of
    the middle-class. Where is the voice of the working-class heard ? Where ?
    You're just stating problems we're all aware exist. The problem is implementation. How do we realistically correct the income disparity? That is the million dollar question.
    The greatest asset any government has is it's people. Invest in them; make progressive taxation more progressive, i.e. you make more income, you pay a higher rate than present.
    Set minimum wage at a level where the lowest paying full-time employment enables one to subsist beyond the poverty level.
    Take away the corporation's "personhood", as established in the 1880's. Does a corporation get sick, tired, old ? Does it die ? Then it is not a person entitled to all the same rights as one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    You are quite correct, Flick. I'm not being specific enough. Gerrymandering must be made illegal; it is just a method of disenfranchising certain groups and jerry-rigging the popular vote.
    Our constitution clearly expressed how House members are to be chosen-by state and county populations, not by drawing arbitrary lines based upon tax bases.
    If you mean the federal Constitution. Actually it doesn't. It is left up the states the only conditions for the first 190 years being it's total numbers are proportional to the number of free-persons recounted every ten years and divided by an unspecified formula so it adds up to total number of representatives. It has absolutely nothing do with counties. And even now, only by quite recent extrapolations of the 14th amendment are Gerrymandering by race illegal--it can still be done based on party for example.

    I also think this highlights many of the problems with "We the people." Most people serious have no idea what's in the Constitution (and even less about their state) and don't know how it's applied and generally assume that federal regulations and laws always trumps state laws, when in fact the vast majority of federal laws are completely none binding on state--including speed limits, standardized testing, most environmental regulations, etc. States generally follow as a condition to receive federal tax dollars. So....if you want the kid in a poor district to actually get the same opportunities and education resources as one in a rich community--that effort needs to be directed at state level (not meaningless surveys ....but actual letters and attending hearings, the door to door grass roots get out and vote campaigns, and of course getting out and voting when offered the chance). General rants about federal/national problems, usually doesn't mean a federal response can fix the problem--the federal level often has no authority to fix or implement fixes or practical solutions.
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    Why is this in Behaviour and Psychology?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Why is this in Behaviour and Psychology?
    Somehow, the Politics or Economics subforums seems a better fit for what this thread appears to be about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Why is this in Behaviour and Psychology?
    I got lost.
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    Thanks Linx, for correcting me about how House is chosen. I'm a federalist. I don't give a shit about state's rights. Thought that question was settled long ago, or should have been. Thanks to the others for directions.
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    "the federal level often has no authority..." ? Then why did Eisenhower and Kennedy send the military to Selma and Birmingham to protect civil-rights activists ?
    The federal government is the primary authority in our Republic, though the States retain some (too much) autonomy. A devil's bargain. Madison would disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    You are quite correct, Flick. I'm not being specific enough. Gerrymandering must be made illegal; it is just a method of disenfranchising certain groups and jerry-rigging the popular vote.
    Our constitution clearly expressed how House members are to be chosen-by state and county populations, not by drawing arbitrary lines based upon tax bases.
    If you mean the federal Constitution. Actually it doesn't. It is left up the states the only conditions for the first 190 years being it's total numbers are proportional to the number of free-persons recounted every ten years and divided by an unspecified formula so it adds up to total number of representatives. It has absolutely nothing do with counties. And even now, only by quite recent extrapolations of the 14th amendment are Gerrymandering by race illegal--it can still be done based on party for example.

    I also think this highlights many of the problems with "We the people." Most people serious have no idea what's in the Constitution (and even less about their state) and don't know how it's applied and generally assume that federal regulations and laws always trumps state laws, when in fact the vast majority of federal laws are completely none binding on state--including speed limits, standardized testing, most environmental regulations, etc. States generally follow as a condition to receive federal tax dollars. So....if you want the kid in a poor district to actually get the same opportunities and education resources as one in a rich community--that effort needs to be directed at state level (not meaningless surveys ....but actual letters and attending hearings, the door to door grass roots get out and vote campaigns, and of course getting out and voting when offered the chance). General rants about federal/national problems, usually doesn't mean a federal response can fix the problem--the federal level often has no authority to fix or implement fixes or practical solutions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Thanks Linx, for correcting me about how House is chosen. I'm a federalist. I don't give a shit about state's rights. Thought that question was settled long ago, or should have been. Thanks to the others for directions.
    You should unless you intend to change the US Constitution...because that it how the system is set up, whether you like it or not. Attempts to change many national problems through the federal government are for the most part wasted effort until at least 3/4 of the states agree.

    -
    "the federal level often has no authority..." ? Then why did Eisenhower and Kennedy send the military to Selma and Birmingham to protect civil-rights activists ?
    Because of the many thousands of issues that come up, race is one of the few where the Federal government actually retains authority to protect.
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    National defense is a federal responsibility. Why in hell does Arizona take it upon themselves ? The Constitution has been changed 28 times. A few more may be in order. Thanks for your response. As always, valuable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Thanks Linx, for correcting me about how House is chosen. I'm a federalist. I don't give a shit about state's rights. Thought that question was settled long ago, or should have been. Thanks to the others for directions.
    You should unless you intend to change the US Constitution...because that it how the system is set up, whether you like it or not.

    -
    "the federal level often has no authority..." ? Then why did Eisenhower and Kennedy send the military to Selma and Birmingham to protect civil-rights activists ?
    Because of the many thousands of issues that come up, race is one of the few where the Federal government actually retains authority to protect.
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    Why in hell does Arizona take it upon themselves ?
    Not really sure what you referring to. Of course Governors also retain authority to use their National Guard for internal problems.

    --
    And yes, this thread has strongly drifted into politics...more than psychology.
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    I was not referring to an "internal problem". I meant that Arizona acts upon national security matters when these are the domain of the feds. you're right, this is a topic for a different thread. My apology, I'm not familial enough with the proper way to use this site. I'll try to pay more attention, in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Why in hell does Arizona take it upon themselves ?
    Not really sure what you referring to. Of course Governors also retain authority to use their National Guard for internal problems.

    --
    And yes, this thread has strongly drifted into politics...more than psychology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    I was not referring to an "internal problem". I meant that Arizona acts upon national security matters when these are the domain of the feds.
    No idea what you are referring to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    I was not referring to an "internal problem". I meant that Arizona acts upon national security matters when these are the domain of the feds.
    No idea what you are referring to.
    Securing our borders is a federal responsibility. Arizona acts independently on this matter. That is not within the States authority.
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    What are they doing which you think they shouldn't be doing? While they are limited they can certainly assist with observation, reporting, and under similar restrictions as federal military troops on US soils.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
    He's suspended.
    Really ? Imagine my surprise.
    Yeah, he flipped his lid. Sort of like what you were starting to do in this thread.

    Just calm down and make your point. If you can address the issue of building a healthy economy, go for it. It's not necessary to go on the warpath.
    Yeah, dude! When did you turn into a nut bar?
    for like 9 posts you're arguing with no one and getting madder and madder over it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Look, if you've got the solution to our economic problems you could rule the free world. From my perspective, the problem isn't that we can't come up with good ideas, but that we cannot implement them. We have turned money into the ultimate goal and created a nation driven by greed. How do you spread the wealth when everyone wants it all?
    Yeah. To quote the Joker "This town deserves a better class of criminal."

    ' This Town Deserves a Better Class of Criminal ' JOKER CLIP - YouTube

    The quality of rich person is declining badly in America. It used to be about running business more efficiently. Now it's more about stopping anyone else from outgrowing. And securing the cheapest access to labor and resources by coercing the lowest possible price out of others.

    The problem with being really rich is you can't pass it on more than a few generations before the wealth dilutes and you start to run the risk that your grand kids will throw it all away. The rich in America are starting to see too many 2nd generation trust fund babies gut their parents' businesses. So if they can increase the wealth gap, then it becomes easier and easier to reassure themselves that their foolish grand kids won't be able to squander everything all the way. I can understand why they're doing it.


    Upward mobility is a curse to anyone in that position. Even a very poor businessperson can stay on top if they have an absolute advantage. But if newcomers are constantly entering the arena, that isn't going to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Blacks are incarcerated at a rate 20 times higher than whites while the rich build gated communities.
    They also commit 6.66 times as many murders per capita. The statistic may have a basis in behavior.

    FBI — Expanded Homicide Data

    Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    We roof your houses, mow your lawns, tend your kids, drive the cabs, wash your soiled linen and then are derided and blamed for our shiftless-ness. Yea, I know the smell of classist arrogance well. We suffer ill health, early death, and do the work others won't, or can't, do. And we do it for bare subsistence wages. Wanna' be a millionaire ? Great. Just start with $ 900,000 dollars and it's a cinch. Try starting with nothing. Some have and done very well starting from scratch. Many cannot; they're just trying to survive. And the contempt shown them by those who have found success in America is disgustingly real.
    The poor keep voting to make their own conditions worse. It's a kind of self hatred, I guess.

    The USA could always criminalize illegal immigration, and thereby drive up the wage for lawn tenders, cab drivers, and linen washers. But everyone is scared the economy will crash if the wage for those kinds of jobs goes up.
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    All this moaning and groaning, but the US is still pretty high up on the net immigration list. There must be somebody who thinks there's opportunity here.
    List of countries by net migration rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    All this moaning and groaning, but the US is still pretty high up on the net immigration list. There must be somebody who thinks there's opportunity here.
    List of countries by net migration rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Our lack of opportunity looks like gold to what the opportunity probably looks like in their own countries. either that or our reputation is still strong even if our actual conditions aren't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    What are they doing which you think they shouldn't be doing? While they are limited they can certainly assist with observation, reporting, and under similar restrictions as federal military troops on US soils.
    Arizona is arresting and harassing Latinos, and sometimes shooting them. Is this "observation" or "reporting" ? Sure, they're breaking the law. And so would have millions of Europeans if there
    was a way to "sneak" across the Atlantic Ocean. They want the same thing my ancestors wanted. I don't blame them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    What are they doing which you think they shouldn't be doing? While they are limited they can certainly assist with observation, reporting, and under similar restrictions as federal military troops on US soils.
    Arizona is arresting and harassing Latinos, and sometimes shooting them. Is this "observation" or "reporting" ? Sure, they're breaking the law. And so would have millions of Europeans if there
    was a way to "sneak" across the Atlantic Ocean. They want the same thing my ancestors wanted. I don't blame them.
    I think most of those things are being exaggerated or part of an old policy which the US Supreme Court strongly ruled against two years ago in Arizona vs the United States. Most of the Az law was swept away, leaving only checks of immigration paperwork if there was a reasonable suspicion that they were undocumented. Do I think this tends to lead itself to harassment--yes. Is it Az doing the feds job of providing border security: not really -- immigration is not a serious threat to the nation, is at one of its lowest points in recent history. The Feds already put a lot of resources into "protecting" the border though admittedly seriously hampered by a confused mess of immigration policies and inefficient bureaucracy.
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    Seems to me you tended to agree with practically all of my post. Just sayin' . What made you unable to say that ? Was it anything to do with "Class" ? Just wondering, not accusing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Thanks for adding more detail--though I'm not certain how it relates to psychology.

    I tend to agree with much of your post. The US does tend to see itself as a place where people will rise and fall to a social class reflecting according to their merits, but nothing could be further from the truth. The reality is the US has become one of the last social-economical mobile nations in the developed world--if you are born to poor, you will likely remain poor regardless of potential; if you are born to rich parents, you'll likely continue to be rich all your life. There's a lot of reasons, this being just a few:

    -Education is almost entire locally financed, not far removed from the 19th century models--this creates huge gaps in quality of teachers, text books and educational infrastructure depending on where a child grows up. It is probably the number one problem related to socio-economic class mobility.

    -Our health care system doesn't take sufficient care of the poor. A sad fact is many preventable problems in children can be identified and mitigated prior to first grade, but simple aren't. So kids arrive in first grade with serious problems because it's the first time a real expert has seen the child--unfortunately it's often too late and not nearly as effective by that point. Children to poor families are put at a disadvantage.

    -Our social security system, is likewise very regressive--it is almost a certainty that a poor minority won't get his contribution back, while almost a certainty that a rich white person will.

    -Our tax structure and social programs aren't nearly progressive enough. A blue color worker who often works a risky job (such as I did as a commercial fishermen and often as a Soldier) pays the social security and medicare head tax+income taxes while most upper middle class and wealthier make more of their income from non physically risking investment capital gains which completely avoid social security, medicare as well as being taxed at a lower rate (I've made a killing the past five years through investments at no physical risk at all--yep it sure beats the hell out of ducking from mortar attacks).

    -Our criminal justice system and associated voting laws are heavily stacked against poor minorities with high incarcerations rates and laws that stigmatize them for life by not allowing them to vote, or get a good paying job--and than the rich have the gall to criticize the social problems, which in large part the rich created. (most simply have no clue about poverty other than by some abstraction)

    --
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    And no, I never read Wealth of Nations. I only know "about" it. But I have read "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", and we are on that path. We arm ourselves militarily until we become impoverished, but to hell with the working-class poor. Pride comes before the fall.
    While I agree that the military budget could be cut by a huge margin (as much as half) and still easily meet it's Constitutional requirement to defend the nation, it's somewhat irresponsible to ignore the even larger social programs, growing by a huge rates, which aren't even in the Constitution.

    --
    I also somewhat disagree with your framing this as American always being about class freedom. In reality, while we rejected pure hereditary power such a s kings, lords etc, the framers were among the wealthiest in America and our system largely established to preserve that relationship by excluding huge number of Southern minorities from voting, no votes for Senators nor the president (still true). And it has always been true that a large fraction of federal representatives and senators have been from long lines of rich and politically dynastic families--some holding power for more than half a century.
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    Self-hatred you guess ? Bad guess. Thought you weren't in the business of "supposing" ? Now, you are ? You don't know any working-class people. That's pretty evident. So is your distain for them. Like I've said, experience counts and not every life-lesson is in a textbook, Flick. Also, some poor folks are as smart as yourself, which is pretty smart. Yours is the attitude toward the working-class that I'm trying to illustrate. A smart person realizes that sometimes the village idiot is right and the experts wrong. I'm neither of the last two.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Look, if you've got the solution to our economic problems you could rule the free world. From my perspective, the problem isn't that we can't come up with good ideas, but that we cannot implement them. We have turned money into the ultimate goal and created a nation driven by greed. How do you spread the wealth when everyone wants it all?
    Yeah. To quote the Joker "This town deserves a better class of criminal."

    ' This Town Deserves a Better Class of Criminal ' JOKER CLIP - YouTube

    The quality of rich person is declining badly in America. It used to be about running business more efficiently. Now it's more about stopping anyone else from outgrowing. And securing the cheapest access to labor and resources by coercing the lowest possible price out of others.

    The problem with being really rich is you can't pass it on more than a few generations before the wealth dilutes and you start to run the risk that your grand kids will throw it all away. The rich in America are starting to see too many 2nd generation trust fund babies gut their parents' businesses. So if they can increase the wealth gap, then it becomes easier and easier to reassure themselves that their foolish grand kids won't be able to squander everything all the way. I can understand why they're doing it.


    Upward mobility is a curse to anyone in that position. Even a very poor businessperson can stay on top if they have an absolute advantage. But if newcomers are constantly entering the arena, that isn't going to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Blacks are incarcerated at a rate 20 times higher than whites while the rich build gated communities.
    They also commit 6.66 times as many murders per capita. The statistic may have a basis in behavior.

    FBI — Expanded Homicide Data

    Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    We roof your houses, mow your lawns, tend your kids, drive the cabs, wash your soiled linen and then are derided and blamed for our shiftless-ness. Yea, I know the smell of classist arrogance well. We suffer ill health, early death, and do the work others won't, or can't, do. And we do it for bare subsistence wages. Wanna' be a millionaire ? Great. Just start with $ 900,000 dollars and it's a cinch. Try starting with nothing. Some have and done very well starting from scratch. Many cannot; they're just trying to survive. And the contempt shown them by those who have found success in America is disgustingly real.
    The poor keep voting to make their own conditions worse. It's a kind of self hatred, I guess.

    The USA could always criminalize illegal immigration, and thereby drive up the wage for lawn tenders, cab drivers, and linen washers. But everyone is scared the economy will crash if the wage for those kinds of jobs goes up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Seems to me you tended to agree with practically all of my post. Just sayin' . What made you unable to say that ? Was it anything to do with "Class" ? Just wondering, not accusing.
    Huh?
    I'm not even sure what class you are. I suppose most would consider me lower middle class, raised in poverty with a long climb through a reasonably good post secondary education once I left my community, a few years as a research meteorologist and finally a career in the military moving from mechanic to officer. Most of the people from my home town never got out, never got a good college education, and are still poor--few had a gifted intellect either (something I had nothing to do with). I'm a moderate republican who's been watching my party move from intellectual and reason based pragmatism to anti-intellectual superstitious ones over the past two decades--and I'm pissed about it.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; March 24th, 2014 at 09:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Self-hatred you guess ? Bad guess. Thought you weren't in the business of "supposing" ? Now, you are ? You don't know any working-class people. That's pretty evident. So is your distain for them. Like I've said, experience counts and not every life-lesson is in a textbook, Flick. Also, some poor folks are as smart as yourself, which is pretty smart. Yours is the attitude toward the working-class that I'm trying to illustrate. A smart person realizes that sometimes the village idiot is right and the experts wrong. I'm neither of the last two

    That's the teapot calling the kettle black. What makes you "suppose" that I'm not a working class person myself?

    I have disdain for people who vote to hurt themselves. Not for people who are working class. My disdain is for people who are working class and who vote to make things harder for the working class. It's the worst kind of idiocy.

    For example, I meet a lot of truck drivers who hate unions. Absolutely hate them. I can't understand it. I've seen both the inside and outside of a few trade unions, and I'm not dumb enough to think that union fees are going to cost me more than working for an un-negotiated wage does. But it's the working class that votes to gut the unions, because they think they might not get a job. They're misinformed into thinking the wage determines the number of openings in some kind of directly proportional relationship. (It does affect it, but to a much lesser degree.)
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    If I were you , I wouldn't attend ANY fight. I can tell you'd not last long without your lawyers. Need a better class of criminals ? Is that what I am ? I can smell your arrogance better than you can detect my working-class sweat. I don't care about the problems of the rich; why in the hell should I ? Your post says it would be wasted. Self hatred ? No. It's aimed at people like you, you smarmy little rich b*****d.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Look, if you've got the solution to our economic problems you could rule the free world. From my perspective, the problem isn't that we can't come up with good ideas, but that we cannot implement them. We have turned money into the ultimate goal and created a nation driven by greed. How do you spread the wealth when everyone wants it all?
    "Everyone" does not want all the wealth. It is only the already-wealthy who display such brazen, naked greed. kojax, it is my reasoned opinion that you don't know shit from shinola
    about the working class, and concern yourself about them even less. The poor keep voting to make conditions worse ? Is that how you rationalize your good fortune ? Nice try but that dog don't fuckin' hunt, my friend. "Upward mobility is a curse". Ah, noblesse oblige, you sorry excuse for a human being. I don't know where you live and I don't care. But you are despicable.

    Yeah. To quote the Joker "This town deserves a better class of criminal."

    ' This Town Deserves a Better Class of Criminal ' JOKER CLIP - YouTube

    The quality of rich person is declining badly in America. It used to be about running business more efficiently. Now it's more about stopping anyone else from outgrowing. And securing the cheapest access to labor and resources by coercing the lowest possible price out of others.

    The problem with being really rich is you can't pass it on more than a few generations before the wealth dilutes and you start to run the risk that your grand kids will throw it all away. The rich in America are starting to see too many 2nd generation trust fund babies gut their parents' businesses. So if they can increase the wealth gap, then it becomes easier and easier to reassure themselves that their foolish grand kids won't be able to squander everything all the way. I can understand why they're doing it.


    Upward mobility is a curse to anyone in that position. Even a very poor businessperson can stay on top if they have an absolute advantage. But if newcomers are constantly entering the arena, that isn't going to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Blacks are incarcerated at a rate 20 times higher than whites while the rich build gated communities.
    They also commit 6.66 times as many murders per capita. The statistic may have a basis in behavior.

    FBI — Expanded Homicide Data

    Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    We roof your houses, mow your lawns, tend your kids, drive the cabs, wash your soiled linen and then are derided and blamed for our shiftless-ness. Yea, I know the smell of classist arrogance well. We suffer ill health, early death, and do the work others won't, or can't, do. And we do it for bare subsistence wages. Wanna' be a millionaire ? Great. Just start with $ 900,000 dollars and it's a cinch. Try starting with nothing. Some have and done very well starting from scratch. Many cannot; they're just trying to survive. And the contempt shown them by those who have found success in America is disgustingly real.
    The poor keep voting to make their own conditions worse. It's a kind of self hatred, I guess.

    The USA could always criminalize illegal immigration, and thereby drive up the wage for lawn tenders, cab drivers, and linen washers. But everyone is scared the economy will crash if the wage for those kinds of jobs goes up.
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    Working.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
    He's suspended.
    Really ? Imagine my surprise.
    Yeah, he flipped his lid. Sort of like what you were starting to do in this thread.

    Just calm down and make your point. If you can address the issue of building a healthy economy, go for it. It's not necessary to go on the warpath.
    Yeah, dude! When did you turn into a nut bar?
    for like 9 posts you're arguing with no one and getting madder and madder over it.
    When ? Just now, like it ? Some of you are back-pedaling faster than a circus clown. I know this subject makes some people squirm. And I know why.
    Somewhere under all that material wealth lay a human conscience, roped and gagged by self-interest. Is anybody at this site willing to admit being other than middle-class or above ? If so, speak. If not, I will continue if permitted, and I seldom ask for permission.
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    That's an archaic phrase, kojax. It is offensive to blacks. How do I know ? Unlike you, I know some. The working-class votes against their own interests because Fox news tells them to and because our public education sucks. Plain enough ? I've also met lots of truck drivers who hated unions and every one of them was wrong. So are you, and you're educated. What's your excuse for voting Republican ? I'm not inciting class warfare, just informing the master there's trouble out in the fields and maybe he should look into it.QUOTE=kojax;543656]
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Self-hatred you guess ? Bad guess. Thought you weren't in the business of "supposing" ? Now, you are ? You don't know any working-class people. That's pretty evident. So is your distain for them. Like I've said, experience counts and not every life-lesson is in a textbook, Flick. Also, some poor folks are as smart as yourself, which is pretty smart. Yours is the attitude toward the working-class that I'm trying to illustrate. A smart person realizes that sometimes the village idiot is right and the experts wrong. I'm neither of the last two

    That's the teapot calling the kettle black. What makes you "suppose" that I'm not a working class person myself?

    I have disdain for people who vote to hurt themselves. Not for people who are working class. My disdain is for people who are working class and who vote to make things harder for the working class. It's the worst kind of idiocy.

    For example, I meet a lot of truck drivers who hate unions. Absolutely hate them. I can't understand it. I've seen both the inside and outside of a few trade unions, and I'm not dumb enough to think that union fees are going to cost me more than working for an un-negotiated wage does. But it's the working class that votes to gut the unions, because they think they might not get a job. They're misinformed into thinking the wage determines the number of openings in some kind of directly proportional relationship. (It does affect it, but to a much lesser degree.)[/QUOTE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    When ? Just now, like it ? Some of you are back-pedaling faster than a circus clown. I know this subject makes some people squirm. And I know why. Somewhere under all that material wealth lay a human conscience, roped and gagged by self-interest. Is anybody at this site willing to admit being other than middle-class or above ? If so, speak. If not, I will continue if permitted, and I seldom ask for permission.
    Not sure what you line of thinking is here, or why you're going off on a tangent about what social class people might be from, or if they might be hiding it somehow. The thread was actually going pretty well; there's no need at all for personal attacks (by anyone).

    So lets keep the thread on topic.
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    Good for you. Thanks for the accurate description of the present GOP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Seems to me you tended to agree with practically all of my post. Just sayin' . What made you unable to say that ? Was it anything to do with "Class" ? Just wondering, not accusing.
    Huh?
    I'm not even sure what class you are. I suppose most would consider me lower middle class, raised in poverty with a long climb through a reasonably good post secondary education once I left my community, a few years as a research meteorologist and finally a career in the military moving from mechanic to officer. Most of the people from my home town never got out, never got a good college education, and are still poor--few had a gifted intellect either (something I had nothing to do with). I'm a moderate republican who's been watching my party move from intellectual and reason based pragmatism to anti-intellectual superstitious ones over the past two decades--and I'm pissed about it.
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    Yes, of course. Lets. I started this thread. I'm certain I know the topic. I'm still waiting for another worker-bee. I'll wait longer.
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    If I was half the man I used to be I'd TAKE A FLAME-THROWER TO THIS PLACE !

    Al Pacino-Scent of a Woman
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    If I was half the man I used to be I'd TAKE A FLAME-THROWER TO THIS PLACE !

    Al Pacino-Scent of a Woman
    Board brush statements aren't very constructive. Somehow this thread has touched a nerve, and I'm probably not the only one who's wondering why.
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    It has ? Who's nerve ? Not mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    If I was half the man I used to be I'd TAKE A FLAME-THROWER TO THIS PLACE !

    Al Pacino-Scent of a Woman
    Board brush statements aren't very constructive. Somehow this thread has touched a nerve, and I'm probably not the only one who's wondering why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    It has ? Who's nerve ? Not mine.
    Yes yours as indicated by your statements about flamethrowers, or odd assertions about people not admitting what class they are with no explanation of why you even think it's important.

    Connect the dots, explain yourself and cut out the incendiary language if you want to have a rational conversation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    If I were you , I wouldn't attend ANY fight. I can tell you'd not last long without your lawyers. Need a better class of criminals ? Is that what I am ? I can smell your arrogance better than you can detect my working-class sweat. I don't care about the problems of the rich; why in the hell should I ? Your post says it would be wasted. Self hatred ? No. It's aimed at people like you, you smarmy little rich b*****d.

    No. By "a better class of criminals" I was referring to the rich people in this country. We need a better class of rich people. I think that probably quite a lot of rich people are criminals, also. But I don't realistically expect to be rid of that. I'd just like to have a better class of them in charge.

    I said it because I don't entirely disagree with your main point. Re-read my post and I think you'll understand what I was trying to say better.


    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    That's an archaic phrase, kojax. It is offensive to blacks. How do I know ? Unlike you, I know some. The working-class votes against their own interests because Fox news tells them to and because our public education sucks. Plain enough ? I've also met lots of truck drivers who hated unions and every one of them was wrong. So are you, and you're educated. What's your excuse for voting Republican ? I'm not inciting class warfare, just informing the master there's trouble out in the fields and maybe he should look into it

    I don't usually vote republican. Republican is anti-union.

    The trouble for me with meeting black people is there just plain aren't very many of them near where I live. I'd have to travel in order to meet any and get to know them. The few I do know are hard to remember as black people, since a person's race isn't one of the traits I most identify them by once I know them. My black friends seem very white to me somehow. Almost like they were the same as a white person. Which is weird - since I keep hearing all these counter racists in the USA telling me that black people are supposed to be different from white people.

    I will say this, though: some of the friendliest truck drivers I've ever met turned out to be black.
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    That was a quote from a film. I touched my own nerve ? Why is class relevant to the thread ?

    That's what I expected. That's what I got.

    You may all stop staring at your shoes, now; close it up. I'll move on.

    Dots are just dots. Connect them or don't. It doesn't matter.
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    I owe you an apology, kojax. I completely misunderstood the direction from which you were coming. I've been advised my comments were incendiary. I disagree but seem to be getting nowhere with this topic, anyway. Must consider the audience. I agree with Obama; we can disagree without being disagreeable. Sorry for misreading you. I'm white but have an affinity for blacks and for any disenfranchised persons anywhere. Just wished this trait was more common, that's all. I'm no working-class hero. Don't even know what that is. My personal role-model is Superman. I know he's not real. But he's real enough for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    If I were you , I wouldn't attend ANY fight. I can tell you'd not last long without your lawyers. Need a better class of criminals ? Is that what I am ? I can smell your arrogance better than you can detect my working-class sweat. I don't care about the problems of the rich; why in the hell should I ? Your post says it would be wasted. Self hatred ? No. It's aimed at people like you, you smarmy little rich b*****d.

    No. By "a better class of criminals" I was referring to the rich people in this country. We need a better class of rich people. I think that probably quite a lot of rich people are criminals, also. But I don't realistically expect to be rid of that. I'd just like to have a better class of them in charge.

    I said it because I don't entirely disagree with your main point. Re-read my post and I think you'll understand what I was trying to say better.


    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    That's an archaic phrase, kojax. It is offensive to blacks. How do I know ? Unlike you, I know some. The working-class votes against their own interests because Fox news tells them to and because our public education sucks. Plain enough ? I've also met lots of truck drivers who hated unions and every one of them was wrong. So are you, and you're educated. What's your excuse for voting Republican ? I'm not inciting class warfare, just informing the master there's trouble out in the fields and maybe he should look into it

    I don't usually vote republican. Republican is anti-union.

    The trouble for me with meeting black people is there just plain aren't very many of them near where I live. I'd have to travel in order to meet any and get to know them. The few I do know are hard to remember as black people, since a person's race isn't one of the traits I most identify them by once I know them. My black friends seem very white to me somehow. Almost like they were the same as a white person. Which is weird - since I keep hearing all these counter racists in the USA telling me that black people are supposed to be different from white people.

    I will say this, though: some of the friendliest truck drivers I've ever met turned out to be black.
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    Parting shot: "Those of you in the back row, just rattle your jewelry"

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    god how I miss him
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    A long time ago, I took one of those "Which Super Hero Would You Be?" quiz things. Apparently, I have a Wonder Woman personality, lol, which I thought was rather quaint because I used to buy every one of her comic books back when they only cost 6 cents each.

    (Now, now, gentlemen, don't be pondering my age from that remark. I may have been buying them second hand. )


    I have just read this whole thread from start to finish and shall ponder upon it for a while before adding my comments. I have a brother to visit shortly whom I have not seen in about 18 months as he lives about 335 miles away. Later....
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    I shall wait with baited breath, Wonder Woman. I'm not sure what that means. And that describes my impression of you perfectly.
    Too bad this thread has been "moved". Evicted seems more precise. But, I have no evidence. Yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    A long time ago, I took one of those "Which Super Hero Would You Be?" quiz things. Apparently, I have a Wonder Woman personality, lol, which I thought was rather quaint because I used to buy every one of her comic books back when they only cost 6 cents each.

    (Now, now, gentlemen, don't be pondering my age from that remark. I may have been buying them second hand. )


    I have just read this whole thread from start to finish and shall ponder upon it for a while before adding my comments. I have a brother to visit shortly whom I have not seen in about 18 months as he lives about 335 miles away. Later....
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    LOL...

    That would be 'bated' breath.

    Bated | Define Bated at Dictionary.com

    Showered and clad, now must put on my 'eyes'.

    Word of advice to the men...NEVER rush a woman when she is putting on her mascara.

    It does not end well.
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    Never have. Taking off was things was always more interesting. I just ate some bait. That's why. No, I wondered about that. Thanks and drive carefully.
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    LOL...

    That would be 'bated' breath.

    Bated | Define Bated at Dictionary.com

    Showered and clad, now must put on my 'eyes'.

    Word of advice to the men...NEVER rush a woman when she is putting on her mascara.

    It does not end well.
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    Sorry, my brother interrupted me, too. You get that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    England retains it's Royal family...The Queen is without political power, and justly so
    That's right - Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary; Her Majesty's Passport Office; Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs; Her Majesty's Prison Service; Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service; Her Majesty's Stationery Office; Her Majesty's Armed Forces; Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Education; Her Majesty's Land Registry and Her Majesty's Government obviously have nothing whatsoever to do with Her Majesty. I'm not sure when the next vote is to rename these 'government' departments.
    Scientists and religionists can be easily differentiated: one lot is arrogant, irascible and disdainful, the other believes in God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
    He's suspended.
    Really ? Imagine my surprise.
    Yeah, he flipped his lid. Sort of like what you were starting to do in this thread.

    Just calm down and make your point. If you can address the issue of building a healthy economy, go for it. It's not necessary to go on the warpath.
    Yeah, dude! When did you turn into a nut bar?
    for like 9 posts you're arguing with no one and getting madder and madder over it.
    When ? Just now, like it ? Some of you are back-pedaling faster than a circus clown. I know this subject makes some people squirm. And I know why.
    Somewhere under all that material wealth lay a human conscience, roped and gagged by self-interest. Is anybody at this site willing to admit being other than middle-class or above ? If so, speak. If not, I will continue if permitted, and I seldom ask for permission.
    Most of the time you have good ideas and great comments but when you write ^ this type of nonsense it's clearly your heart writing and not your head. Nobody is back peddling. It's not an all or nothing scenario. I happen to think Kojax is right. I see poor people voting republican constantly in my neck of the woods. He's right about people who need a union getting rid of it. they actually did that at the last job I was at. People vote against their own best interests constantly, it seems especially the poor. Where I live Fox News and the republicans have sold the people pride instead of the information needed to make a decent living.
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    Still wondering ? Just curious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    If I was half the man I used to be I'd TAKE A FLAME-THROWER TO THIS PLACE !

    Al Pacino-Scent of a Woman
    Board brush statements aren't very constructive. Somehow this thread has touched a nerve, and I'm probably not the only one who's wondering why.
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    Is it me or is umbradiago's writings starting to read like schniebster's rantings and ravings?
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    You failed to mention Her Majesty's office of SMILING and WAVING. Also The Holder of Historical Titles, title. I love England, but get over it. The past is a bucket of ashes.
    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    England retains it's Royal family...The Queen is without political power, and justly so
    That's right - Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary; Her Majesty's Passport Office; Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs; Her Majesty's Prison Service; Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service; Her Majesty's Stationery Office; Her Majesty's Armed Forces; Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Education; Her Majesty's Land Registry and Her Majesty's Government obviously have nothing whatsoever to do with Her Majesty. I'm not sure when the next vote is to rename these 'government' departments.
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    Little of both. What makes you so grumpy ? I get the smurf part.
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    Right. Then why are you dismissing my comments as crazy ? Politically, you and I are pretty close.
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Shneib, little help ? He's probably busy waiting tables. He's a Democrat, like me.
    He's suspended.
    Really ? Imagine my surprise.
    Yeah, he flipped his lid. Sort of like what you were starting to do in this thread.

    Just calm down and make your point. If you can address the issue of building a healthy economy, go for it. It's not necessary to go on the warpath.
    Yeah, dude! When did you turn into a nut bar?
    for like 9 posts you're arguing with no one and getting madder and madder over it.
    When ? Just now, like it ? Some of you are back-pedaling faster than a circus clown. I know this subject makes some people squirm. And I know why.
    Somewhere under all that material wealth lay a human conscience, roped and gagged by self-interest. Is anybody at this site willing to admit being other than middle-class or above ? If so, speak. If not, I will continue if permitted, and I seldom ask for permission.
    Most of the time you have good ideas and great comments but when you write ^ this type of nonsense it's clearly your heart writing and not your head. Nobody is back peddling. It's not an all or nothing scenario. I happen to think Kojax is right. I see poor people voting republican constantly in my neck of the woods. He's right about people who need a union getting rid of it. they actually did that at the last job I was at. People vote against their own best interests constantly, it seems especially the poor. Where I live Fox News and the republicans have sold the people pride instead of the information needed to make a decent living.
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    Flick, I don't have a lid to flip. Don't even wear hats. I like you folk's I honestly do. But, about some social issues you're burying your heads in the sand. Figuratively. And I'm gettin' tired of the opinion that opinions are worthless. Thought some of you were smarter than me. Most, in fact. I can see it ain't necessarily so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Right. Then why are you dismissing my comments as crazy ? Politically, you and I are pretty close.
    because your comments are crazy. They're not directed at anything, you're attacking anyONE (not their arguments) that doesn't agree with with assumptions and nonsense.

    You're right, politically we are aligned pretty close, but I, like most others following this thread, can't figure out where your hostility is coming from and why you've switched over to a combative poster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Little of both. What makes you so grumpy ? I get the smurf part.
    Doubtful if you don't understand the grmpy part
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    But England remains terribly divided by social class as lingering result of Monarchy
    Tell me about it. The upper middle classes wield power with smugness and disdain whilst the working class berate and denigrate the jobless and differently coloured. Multiculturalism (Orwellian for factionalizing the population) further perpetuates division in the lower classes,
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    Scientists and religionists can be easily differentiated: one lot is arrogant, irascible and disdainful, the other believes in God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Flick, I don't have a lid to flip. Don't even wear hats. I like you folk's I honestly do. But, about some social issues you're burying your heads in the sand. Figuratively. And I'm gettin' tired of the opinion that opinions are worthless. Thought some of you were smarter than me. Most, in fact. I can see it ain't necessarily so.
    See? this right here! you are assuming you know what everybody's stances are. I don't think anybody has really taken a stance on anything here. They'e just questining you. and you going on to say if people don't agree with you that makes you smarter than them. just shameful and bad form. nutbar postings, really.
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    Mr. Smoot, You are an example of why I love the UK.
    grumpy, you are sometimes why I want to leave America and go there, to Mother England. Now you're gonna' say "Go". Sorry. I've met lot's of Americans. Too many.
    Quote Originally Posted by samsmoot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    But England remains terribly divided by social class as lingering result of Monarchy
    Tell me about it. The upper middle classes wield power with smugness and disdain whilst the working class berate and denigrate the jobless and differently coloured. Multiculturalism (Orwellian for factionalizing the population) further perpetuates division in the lower classes,
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    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    Mr. Smoot, You are an example of why I love the UK
    I'm OK - it's the others you have to watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by umbradiago View Post
    grumpy, you are sometimes why I want to leave America and go there, to Mother England.
    These days it's more like motherf*cking England. I'm moving to China.
    Scientists and religionists can be easily differentiated: one lot is arrogant, irascible and disdainful, the other believes in God.
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