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Thread: No Logic Immigration helps the economy ?

  1. #1 No Logic Immigration helps the economy ? 
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
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    No Logic Immigration helps the economy.

    How?

    In twenty years when all the immgrants have retired will we need to bring in more workers from abroad to pay for them in retirement.

    How much of this green and pleasent land will need to be carved up to satisfy more settlers.

    This needs to be addresed before its to late, come on wake up M.Ps


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    More than half of Alabama's tomato crop rotted on the ground and a lot of the farmers who grew them went bankrupt.

    I'm watching what happens to their agriculture income with amusement. As ye sow so shall ye reap, and those who sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind.

    So saith the Prophet in the Holy Koran.

    Furthermore, Abraham's JHVH said, bind not the mouths of the kine (cattle) who tread (thresh) thy corn. For their work they should eat freely. By this shalt thou maintain the covenant with thy chattels.

    It's simple respect.

    Our member scheherazade could instruct you. She "asks" her horses to do things. This is the correct attitude. I "ask" my cats to do things; I could easily force them, but they are happy to do it for me because I treat them well and they love me. And I love them. If I can treat an animal like this, how much more respect should I give a human?


    Last edited by Schneibster; March 13th, 2014 at 03:50 PM.
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  4. #3  
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    Which Prophet would that be. ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    In twenty years when all the immgrants have retired will we need to bring in more workers from abroad to pay for them in retirement.
    We are already doing that. It might help you to look around the hospitals and see where the nurses come from. About half of them are recent immigrants.
    You see the same thing in our govt offices and oddly enough in our service industries too.
    It is not just the taxi drivers any more.
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    Every year millions die because they starve to death in Africa. but still they give birth in the hope one survives
    Now in this country food banks are every where. The world is over populated but still the birth rate goes up
    We need to sort it out. its out of control
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    Main main trouble with immigration it's mostly the poor and under-educated who want to immigrate. A country can only make so much room for under-contributors.

    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs. Can't be making room for Mexico's drop outs too.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Err, shall we curtail the birthrate?

    Just askin'.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs. Can't be making room for Mexico's drop outs too.
    Yep, no sense wasting a good education on them illegal immigrants.
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    Every year millions die because they starve to death in Africa. but still they give birth in the hope one survives
    That mainly happens nowadays in countries with wars going on. Africa still has a way to catch up with the rest of the world, but the birthrates in most African countries are dropping anyway.

    Watch this talk. Then think for a bit. Hans Rosling: Religions and babies | Talk Video | TED
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    In twenty years when all the immgrants have retired will we need to bring in more workers from abroad to pay for them in retirement.
    Are immigrants allowed to retire? Thought they were just deported...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    Every year millions die because they starve to death in Africa. but still they give birth in the hope one survives
    Now in this country food banks are every where. The world is over populated but still the birth rate goes up
    We need to sort it out. its out of control
    Thought the birth rate is up in under privileged countries because access to birth control is usually cut by religious zealots and sex is fun and doesn't cost anything to engage in. cheap entertainment that costs a ridiculous amount later on if you get pregnant
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    Thought the birth rate is up in under privileged countries because access to birth control is usually cut by religious zealots and sex is fun and doesn't cost anything to engage in. cheap entertainment that costs a ridiculous amount later on if you get pregnant
    Nup. The main drivers in countries with a high number of births per woman are extreme poverty (of the less than a dollar per day, hungry to bed every night, type poverty) where children are also needed to produce family income , high mortality rate of children - war, violence and poor health(care) are the problems here, along with poor or no education of women and little or no access to contraception. Indonesia, Bangladesh and Qatar are all strongly Islamic countries and all of them have a births per woman rate of less than 3 despite the wildly different wealth and average incomes of those three countries.

    Another Rosling talk helps with this Hans Rosling: Global population growth, box by box | Talk Video | TED
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs.
    Our own high school dropouts don't want the jobs that immigrants take.

    Personally I think we should take any law-abiding immigrant who wants to work here. It helps everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Thought the birth rate is up in under privileged countries because access to birth control is usually cut by religious zealots and sex is fun and doesn't cost anything to engage in. cheap entertainment that costs a ridiculous amount later on if you get pregnant
    Nup. The main drivers in countries with a high number of births per woman are extreme poverty (of the less than a dollar per day, hungry to bed every night, type poverty)
    Right. what costs more, going bowling or staying home and having sex? bowling in the short term, sex in the long term. I understand the more kids = more family income (American settlers did this on farms back when) but I doubt that would put the numbers where there are at now especially when there are no jobs. doesn't cost anything to initially engage in sex where anything else costs money. I'm probably wrong
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    billvon is against educating US citizens to take these jobs. He's in favor of them starving and dying of drug addictions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs.
    Our own high school dropouts don't want the jobs that immigrants take.
    Let's not bring this sound bite back into vogue. Besides it's only half the truth.

    Our own high school dropouts don't want the jobs that immigrants take... for a 1.50 and hour. americans will do any job if you pay them right. but it cuts into the profit margin and greedy doesn't ever like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    billvon is against educating US citizens to take these jobs. He's in favor of them starving and dying of drug addictions.
    Just stop already! you're not cute, your not amusing. You're way past borish!
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    Sorry but people who are against immigrants are racists, grumpy.

    And people who are against educating black people are racists, grumpy.

    And people who are against black people getting jobs are racists, grumpy.

    And people who are against black people getting loans with a fair rate are racists, grumpy.

    That's people like you, grumpy.
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    what costs more, going bowling or staying home and having sex?
    Most married people have sex reasonably regularly. Sex isn't the problem. Contraception is.

    When women can get contraception they use it. The best kinds are the long term implants. One clinic visit, five years protection. Bliss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    Sorry but people who are against immigrants are racists, grumpy.

    And people who are against educating black people are racists, grumpy.

    And people who are against black people getting jobs are racists, grumpy.

    And people who are against black people getting loans with a fair rate are racists, grumpy.

    That's people like you, grumpy.
    are you ever right?
    You ASSume an awful lot for someone who thinks he isn't racist. You should work on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    what costs more, going bowling or staying home and having sex?
    Most married people have sex reasonably regularly. Sex isn't the problem. Contraception is.

    When women can get contraception they use it. The best kinds are the long term implants. One clinic visit, five years protection. Bliss.
    That's why I originally wrote this " because access to birth control is usually cut by religious zealots"
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs.
    Our own high school dropouts don't want the jobs that immigrants take.

    Personally I think we should take any law-abiding immigrant who wants to work here. It helps everyone.
    Lol. High school drop outs may not "want" jobs that immigrants take but they need them.

    The wage goes down if there are too many people competing for them. That may sound like a good thing, because in theory it lowers prices of services, but it puts us in a situation where if we were to cut down on welfare type programs, people would really be in the lurch.

    So we either need to debt spend at the government level to subsidize low wages, or pay higher prices for services at the checkout counter. I'd say the second option is more fiscally responsible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    Err, shall we curtail the birthrate?

    Just askin'.
    We'd be better off if we were able to do that, yes.

    But it's probably not politically possible. Too unpopular. (There's a funny tendency for people who like to breed to become numerous, and then get more votes.)


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs. Can't be making room for Mexico's drop outs too.
    Yep, no sense wasting a good education on them illegal immigrants.
    Yeah. Not if we can't afford it.

    And clearly we can't. There would be no debt spending at the Federal level if we could afford all the things we want to do for people.
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    Apparently I'm not allowed to tell the truth. Sorry Kojax.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs. Can't be making room for Mexico's drop outs too.
    Yep, no sense wasting a good education on them illegal immigrants.
    Yeah. Not if we can't afford it.

    And clearly we can't. There would be no debt spending at the Federal level if we could afford all the things we want to do for people.
    The other stuff you wrote in this post I don't agree with but I understand it's strictly opinion and it's not really hurting anything. but this last bit I completely disagree we can't afford NOT to educate people. Education is a right and the solution to our problems. if we educate everyone someone is bound to come up with a solution to whatever it is that we are ailing from. No education leads to things like... well, you've seen him on the board
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post

    The other stuff you wrote in this post I don't agree with but I understand it's strictly opinion and it's not really hurting anything. but this last bit I completely disagree we can't afford NOT to educate people. Education is a right and the solution to our problems. if we educate everyone someone is bound to come up with a solution to whatever it is that we are ailing from. No education leads to things like... well, you've seen him on the board
    America's already falling behind in producing enough high quality entrants to higher education - especially in light of its population (3rd largest in the world) and its financial position (highest GDP in the world by a large margin). Remedial maths and remedial English for college students is needed by far too many students.

    But the biggest issue is a good, comprehensive education for everyone who might become a tradesperson or a shop assistant or a bureaucrat in a bank/ insurance company or a busdriver or anything else. Democracy works best when citizens have the capacity to understand how the world works and how they can participate in making it better for themselves and for other people and can resist the blandishments of con merchants and critically view advertisements - both political and commercial. People are better off when they can understand health advice as well as being able to get better jobs/ manage whatever money they have. And that takes a good education.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post

    The other stuff you wrote in this post I don't agree with but I understand it's strictly opinion and it's not really hurting anything. but this last bit I completely disagree we can't afford NOT to educate people. Education is a right and the solution to our problems. if we educate everyone someone is bound to come up with a solution to whatever it is that we are ailing from. No education leads to things like... well, you've seen him on the board
    America's already falling behind in producing enough high quality entrants to higher education - especially in light of its population (3rd largest in the world) and its financial position (highest GDP in the world by a large margin). Remedial maths and remedial English for college students is needed by far too many students.

    But the biggest issue is a good, comprehensive education for everyone who might become a tradesperson or a shop assistant or a bureaucrat in a bank/ insurance company or a busdriver or anything else. Democracy works best when citizens have the capacity to understand how the world works and how they can participate in making it better for themselves and for other people and can resist the blandishments of con merchants and critically view advertisements - both political and commercial. People are better off when they can understand health advice as well as being able to get better jobs/ manage whatever money they have. And that takes a good education.
    With the shop and rop classes getting cut doesn't help either
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    With the shop and rop classes getting cut doesn't help either
    GRrrr. Many years ago we got rid of our "tech" schools which catered entirely for people who weren't interested in higher education and many had a real interest in apprenticeships. But the general high schools also had woodwork and metalwork classes for all boys (we girls did a whole afternoon or morning each week on "Domestic Science" for two. whole. years.).

    But the inevitable results of getting rid of all those really good veteran tradie teachers over the previous few decades really showed up when we ran our tuition centre. We had several students who would have been good candidates for trade or trades assistant work - but they had neither the straight maths skills nor any hands-on practice - at anything.

    Come to think of it. When I was in primary school, the boys used to disappear off to a mysterious shed to do boystuff when we girls had to do needlework and knitting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    With the shop and rop classes getting cut doesn't help either
    GRrrr. Many years ago we got rid of our "tech" schools which catered entirely for people who weren't interested in higher education and many had a real interest in apprenticeships. But the general high schools also had woodwork and metalwork classes for all boys (we girls did a whole afternoon or morning each week on "Domestic Science" for two. whole. years.).

    But the inevitable results of getting rid of all those really good veteran tradie teachers over the previous few decades really showed up when we ran our tuition centre. We had several students who would have been good candidates for trade or trades assistant work - but they had neither the straight maths skills nor any hands-on practice - at anything.

    Come to think of it. When I was in primary school, the boys used to disappear off to a mysterious shed to do boystuff when we girls had to do needlework and knitting.
    Yep, home ec. is gone over here too.
    Some people don't want to go to college nor should they have to but they should get the basics down as well as be shown something they are interested. anything past geometry should all be elective not required. same with basic english. we spend so much time on college college college that we ignore the basics in favor of the complicated... it makes no sense. no point in putting a kid in algebra if he can't multiply
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    No Logic Immigration helps the economy.

    How?

    In twenty years when all the immgrants have retired will we need to bring in more workers from abroad to pay for them in retirement.
    All the more reason to make than full citizens as soon as possible so they start contributing to the social programs that fund old folks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    No Logic Immigration helps the economy.

    How?

    In twenty years when all the immgrants have retired will we need to bring in more workers from abroad to pay for them in retirement.
    All the more reason to make than full citizens as soon as possible so they start contributing to the social programs that fund old folks.
    Yeah but then the agriculture industry and walmart won't be able to hire them under minimum wage anymore. that defeats the purpose
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    no point in putting a kid in algebra if he can't multiply
    Right. But you have to do algebra if you're to do any serious trade qualification. Just being able to transpose all the various parts of those electrical or similar equations is entirely beyond you if you can't manipulate an equation to get x all on its own on one side of an equation.

    And multiplication must be taught from grade 2 onwards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    no point in putting a kid in algebra if he can't multiply
    Right. But you have to do algebra if you're to do any serious trade qualification. Just being able to transpose all the various parts of those electrical or similar equations is entirely beyond you if you can't manipulate an equation to get x all on its own on one side of an equation.

    And multiplication must be taught from grade 2 onwards.
    No, I get that but it can be taught in the trade classes as i applies. As it is right now we have kids that can't multiply and can't read better than at a 3rd grade level and yet they're being held to these standards that say they must and then teachers are being blamed for being "lazy." Why are we testing kids on algebra when we already know they can't do it? recipe for failure
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    No, I get that but it can be taught in the trade classes as i applies. As it is right now we have kids that can't multiply and can't read better than at a 3rd grade level and yet they're being held to these standards that say they must and then teachers are being blamed for being "lazy." Why are we testing kids on algebra when we already know they can't do it? recipe for failure
    Well, you go right ahead and take on the advocates of early years education who say that "we don't have time for that in school. Parents should teach times tables." I'm not kidding. I've tried to deal with the consequences for kids in all the following years. There are even primary teachers who teach Years 6 and 7 that multiplication is "just adding up". Trying to teach fractions, decimals and percentages to such educationally tortured children is torture for those of us who try to get them "ready" for stuff they should have been sailing through 3 or more years earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    Sorry but people who are against immigrants are racists, grumpy.

    .
    What evidence do you have ?
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    Choosing where you live should be a basic human right. Restricting immigration across national borders, which are essentially just lines on maps, is an elitist policy aimed at maintaining the divide between the haves and the have nots. America was founded on the notion of equal opportunity. Restricted immigration is exactly the opposite of equal opportunity and flies in the face of what America stands for.

    Save for the tiny percentage of Americans who are descended fully from native americans, we are ALL descended from immigrants. Why there should be this huge divide between being the child of an immigrant who arrived a generation or more ago and the child of an immigrant who arrives today completely escapes me.
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    ""if we were to open up our borders to skilled labour far more than we do, we would attract a very substantial quantity of skilled labour which would suppress (gesturing down) the wage levels of the skilled""
    -Alan Greenspan

    No it is quite logical. The Ownership class* is at war against workers and wages. Workers have been disorganized and atomised by policy and culture/psyops for decades and people dont quite see this or are totally unaware. The Immigrants are used to 1- suppress wages, 2- Divide and Conquer, 3-throw yet another Decoy to divert attention from the Ownership class/Elite/Oligarchs. Its a double whammy; The left wingers are fooled by concealing the objectives and appealing to their decency ("how dare you be against immigration, dont you love your fellow man? Open the flood gates!", the same way they can be fooled to support wars "We bomb them because we care, out of kindness and altruism, those who oppose the bombing are uncaring for the plight of those we bomb out of love...") while the right wingers are typically fooled by seeing the immigrants themselves as the problem("the elite who open the borders can do no wrong, we will be part of the elite one day, its those immigrants that are the problem".
    (note that politicians lie)



    (* Note that when I talk about the Elite, I do not simply mean the individuals but the end result of systemic mechanisms and outcome of various interests)
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    No, I get that but it can be taught in the trade classes as i applies. As it is right now we have kids that can't multiply and can't read better than at a 3rd grade level and yet they're being held to these standards that say they must and then teachers are being blamed for being "lazy." Why are we testing kids on algebra when we already know they can't do it? recipe for failure
    Well, you go right ahead and take on the advocates of early years education who say that "we don't have time for that in school. Parents should teach times tables." I'm not kidding. I've tried to deal with the consequences for kids in all the following years. There are even primary teachers who teach Years 6 and 7 that multiplication is "just adding up". Trying to teach fractions, decimals and percentages to such educationally tortured children is torture for those of us who try to get them "ready" for stuff they should have been sailing through 3 or more years earlier.
    It's criminal isn't it? or at least it should be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs. Can't be making room for Mexico's drop outs too.
    Yep, no sense wasting a good education on them illegal immigrants.
    Yeah. Not if we can't afford it.

    And clearly we can't. There would be no debt spending at the Federal level if we could afford all the things we want to do for people.
    The other stuff you wrote in this post I don't agree with but I understand it's strictly opinion and it's not really hurting anything. but this last bit I completely disagree we can't afford NOT to educate people. Education is a right and the solution to our problems. if we educate everyone someone is bound to come up with a solution to whatever it is that we are ailing from. No education leads to things like... well, you've seen him on the board
    We can't afford not to educate OUR OWN people. We most certainly can afford not to educate Mexico's people. Let Mexico educate them, if they want them educated.

    We really don't owe the rest of the world anything. America has done well over the last two centuries, but it's not our fault others haven't. In most cases, it is quite certainly their fault. In other cases, it isn't entirely their fault because they got colonized..... but America wasn't the one who colonized them.
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    Kojax, I think the problems caused by them not being educated far outweigh the cost of educating them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We need those unskilled jobs for our own high school drop outs. Can't be making room for Mexico's drop outs too.
    Yep, no sense wasting a good education on them illegal immigrants.
    Yeah. Not if we can't afford it.

    And clearly we can't. There would be no debt spending at the Federal level if we could afford all the things we want to do for people.
    The other stuff you wrote in this post I don't agree with but I understand it's strictly opinion and it's not really hurting anything. but this last bit I completely disagree we can't afford NOT to educate people. Education is a right and the solution to our problems. if we educate everyone someone is bound to come up with a solution to whatever it is that we are ailing from. No education leads to things like... well, you've seen him on the board
    We can't afford not to educate OUR OWN people. We most certainly can afford not to educate Mexico's people. Let Mexico educate them, if they want them educated.
    Again i disagree. the more education for everyone the better we all are not just "Our own people"

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We really don't owe the rest of the world anything.
    Who says we do? we're not doing it "for the rest of the world" except at the best possible scenario. at best we're doing it because we're altruistic at worst we're doing it because it still benefits us. either way it's win/win

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    America has done well over the last two centuries, but it's not our fault others haven't.
    I would argue that in quite a few cases it is our fault others have not done as well... besides that just because we have done well doesn't mean that we can ignore the troubles of others. That's extremely selfish and greedy and if you want to see what has been ruining the the US economy as of late just look to selfish and greedy

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    In most cases, it is quite certainly their fault. In other cases, it isn't entirely their fault because they got colonized..... but America wasn't the one who colonized them.
    This is really beside the point
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post

    We can't afford not to educate OUR OWN people. We most certainly can afford not to educate Mexico's people. Let Mexico educate them, if they want them educated.

    We really don't owe the rest of the world anything. America has done well over the last two centuries, but it's not our fault others haven't. In most cases, it is quite certainly their fault. In other cases, it isn't entirely their fault because they got colonized..... but America wasn't the one who colonized them.
    I really don't understand your argument here.

    First off most of the children here aren't illegal....most were either born here, or came with their parents under legal conditions, but are now undocumented because they didn't return when their visa etc expired.

    Second, in no way can, nor should we hold a child responsible for the action of their either their parents or their ancestors--to do so is an anathema to everything American is supposed to stand for.

    Lastly we certainly can afford to educate these children--we spend more than nearly any other nation on Earth per child as it is. It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of distribution of that money where even today some children get much more resources than others depending on where they live, and what we spend that money on. (high tech is a failure and sucking up more than anything else....well trained teachers are the key...not fancy huge touch screens with teachers that struggle to use them).

    And most of the anti immigrant discussion completely ignore the fact there there's no possible way to send these people back without become akin to an unconstitutional police state that raids homes on a massive level. They are here to stay, their kids are here to stay..and the better we educate them the better off they'll become fully productive Americans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    I "ask" my cats to do things; I could easily force them, but they are happy to do it for me because I treat them well and they love me. And I love them. If I can treat an animal like this, how much more respect should I give a human?
    Please provide peer reviewed scientific evidence to support your currently unsubstantiated assertion that your cats love you and are not simply using their predatory intelligence to enhance their survival probabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We can't afford not to educate OUR OWN people. We most certainly can afford not to educate Mexico's people. Let Mexico educate them, if they want them educated.
    Are you a native American? A descendant of the Clovis people? No? I guess your just another damn immigrant then.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We really don't owe the rest of the world anything.
    Really? Haven't you been following the financial news over the last few decades. You are in debt to the tune of trillions of dollars. You owe the rest of the world a bunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    America has done well over the last two centuries, but it's not our fault others haven't. In most cases, it is quite certainly their fault. In other cases, it isn't entirely their fault because they got colonized..... but America wasn't the one who colonized them.
    I'm going to hope Ice Wendigo comes past and handles this one. He'll have far more pertinent examples to give you. I'll do the executive summary. Bollocks.
    Last edited by John Galt; March 15th, 2014 at 06:40 AM. Reason: Adjacent posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    I "ask" my cats to do things; I could easily force them, but they are happy to do it for me because I treat them well and they love me. And I love them. If I can treat an animal like this, how much more respect should I give a human?
    Please provide peer reviewed scientific evidence to support your currently unsubstantiated assertion that your cats love you and are not simply using their predatory intelligence to enhance their survival probabilities.
    If I am deluding myself I prefer to continue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    If I am deluding myself I prefer to continue.
    Then I trust you see that the requirement for peer reviewed material on a science forum is context sensitive and to some extent subjective. If you insist on absolutism, as appears the case from your thread on the matter, then moderators would be forced to leave no colloquialism unturned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    If I am deluding myself I prefer to continue.
    Then I trust you see that the requirement for peer reviewed material on a science forum is context sensitive and to some extent subjective.
    Yes, and on a science forum I expect science to take primacy over legalisms and news articles, never mind personal opinions.

    And the scientific data show that minorities have been doing worse since Bush 43 and the Teapublicans destroyed affirmative action.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If you insist on absolutism, as appears the case from your thread on the matter, then moderators would be forced to leave no colloquialism unturned.
    What absolutism? I insist on everyone agreeing on the basic facts first. You haven't. The basic facts are in the scientific literature. This is a science forum. What's wrong here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by schniebster
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If you insist on absolutism, as appears the case from your thread on the matter, then moderators would be forced to leave no colloquialism unturned.
    What absolutism? I insist on everyone agreeing on the basic facts first. You haven't. The basic facts are in the scientific literature. This is a science forum. What's wrong here?
    you apply it selectively and ignore everything else or claim anything you don't agree with is "personal opinion."
    you're back to ignored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If you insist on absolutism, as appears the case from your thread on the matter, then moderators would be forced to leave no colloquialism unturned.
    What absolutism? I insist on everyone agreeing on the basic facts first. You haven't. The basic facts are in the scientific literature. This is a science forum. What's wrong here?
    In that case ante up and provide the peer reviewed data showing cats are capable of love, or withdraw the comment.

    While you are at it you can provide the full, documented justification for asserting that people who are against immigrants are racist. You have already been asked to do so by a member, Dave Wilson I think. Why have you not complied? If you are serious about this then you have to fully comply or accept the consequences - consequences you have implicitly recommended.

    I've not put on my moderator hat yet. As a fellow member I seriously suggest you get your act together on this one pretty damn sharpish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If you insist on absolutism, as appears the case from your thread on the matter, then moderators would be forced to leave no colloquialism unturned.
    What absolutism? I insist on everyone agreeing on the basic facts first. You haven't. The basic facts are in the scientific literature. This is a science forum. What's wrong here?
    In that case ante up and provide the peer reviewed data showing cats are capable of love, or withdraw the comment.
    Right after you prove humans do.

    You see first we have to define love.

    If you really want to get into it there is a lot of behavioral evidence that cats relate to people as mommies. It's a common trait in bred animals called "neoteny."

    I invite you to try to show that mammals don't love their mommies. Good luck with that.
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    Oh, and are moderators allowed to threaten people here?

    Reported.
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    Moderator Warning: I gave you a friendly warning. It was not a threat: it was well meaning advice. You chose to ignore it.

    Be very clear, the onus is upon you to provide the supporting data for your assertion. That is the way science works. It is the way this forum works.

    Therefore, provide supporting data within forty eight hours, or withdraw your assertion, or accept a suspension. Your choice.

    Do not respond to this modnote in this thread. If you have issues with it, pm me, or a moderator, or report the post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    I "ask" my cats to do things; I could easily force them, but they are happy to do it for me because I treat them well and they love me. And I love them. If I can treat an animal like this, how much more respect should I give a human?
    Please provide peer reviewed scientific evidence to support your currently unsubstantiated assertion that your cats love you and are not simply using their predatory intelligence to enhance their survival probabilities.
    Who says humans aren't just "using their predatory intelligencce to enhance their survival probabilities", and then lying to ourselves about why we do it?


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We can't afford not to educate OUR OWN people. We most certainly can afford not to educate Mexico's people. Let Mexico educate them, if they want them educated.
    Are you a native American? A descendant of the Clovis people? No? I guess your just another damn immigrant then.
    I believe I am 1/16 native American. So by the "one drop rule",.... yes.

    Besides, the people who originally settled the USA didn't immigrate to "The USA". The immigrated to a land that bore almost no resemblance whatsoever to the present day United States, and then built the United States upon that land.

    It's like if a bunch of vagrants start moving into a farmer's cultivated land, squatting, and then harvesting his/her corn, claiming the farmer also is a "squatter" because he wasn't the first to occupy that land (back when it was uncultivated.) Mexico needs to reap what it sows. Elsewise, what's to stop generation after generation of Mexicans from trashing their own country and then immigrating to the USA to avoid the consequences of their own foolishness?






    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    We really don't owe the rest of the world anything.
    Really? Haven't you been following the financial news over the last few decades. You are in debt to the tune of trillions of dollars. You owe the rest of the world a bunch.
    And you think of educating other peoples' citizens as a way to reduce the national debt then?

    If they were willing to forgive our T-bills in exchange for us doing this, I'd be all for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    America has done well over the last two centuries, but it's not our fault others haven't. In most cases, it is quite certainly their fault. In other cases, it isn't entirely their fault because they got colonized..... but America wasn't the one who colonized them.
    I'm going to hope Ice Wendigo comes past and handles this one. He'll have far more pertinent examples to give you. I'll do the executive summary. Bollocks.
    Overwhelmingly, if something happens inside of Mexico, it is at least partly the fault of the Mexicans. If you start assigning blame to non-Mexicans, you start a bit of a vicious cycle.

    If historical wars are valid arguments for "fault", then I suppose maybe England owes the USA for all of our problems too, because they fought the war of 1812 and burned down our capital? That wasn't very nice of them, and I'm sure the emotional trauma caused some American somewhere to do something that might have triggered something that on down the line ultimately explains why I don't live in a nicer house than I do.

    So England owes me a nicer house!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Our own high school dropouts don't want the jobs that immigrants take... for a 1.50 and hour. americans will do any job if you pay them right. but it cuts into the profit margin and greedy doesn't ever like that.
    More to the point, greedy american consumers won't pay twice as much for US tomatoes over Mexican tomatoes. So upping the wage just bankrupts US farmers.
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    A problem that could easily be solved with a tariff. But then of course Mexico would counter with a tariff of its own, and that would be AWFUL!!!


    (Because then we'd lose out on all those sales we were never going to make anyway, tariff or no, to Mexican consumers. Who probably also don't want to pay too much for American grown tomatoes.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Our own high school dropouts don't want the jobs that immigrants take... for a 1.50 and hour. americans will do any job if you pay them right. but it cuts into the profit margin and greedy doesn't ever like that.
    More to the point, greedy american consumers won't pay twice as much for US tomatoes over Mexican tomatoes. So upping the wage just bankrupts US farmers.
    It won't bankrupt american farmers. the prices could stay roughly the same and the farmers just won't profit as much, but they will still have more than enough to live and thrive on.
    beside the point... are their any farmers left? I thought it was all agribusiness?
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    Here's a good start. My cats don't spray; they're healthy and well-adjusted and like their home and their humans. They scratch on their scratching posts; we have six, plus small ones salted around near their favorite sleeping spots; cats like to stretch and scratch when they wake up. All three of my cats will start purring when I pick them up because they know they will get affection from me.

    Here are some sites that say so:

    http://pets.thenest.com/cats-feel-af...s-do-5092.html
    http://cats.about.com/od/amyshojai/t...-show-love.htm
    http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-exp...shows-you-love

    According to their capabilities, they love me as they are able. And I have evidence. Are we done here?

    Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    It won't bankrupt american farmers. the prices could stay roughly the same and the farmers just won't profit as much,


    No, they won't. Most farms in the US are on razor thin margins right now. One of two things will happen:
    1) The costs will be passed on to the consumers and they will pay it
    2) Consumers will refuse to pay the higher costs and will instead buy Mexican tomatoes. Result - farms bankrupt, and the Mexican labor can then stay in Mexico.
    beside the point... are their any farmers left? I thought it was all agribusiness?
    We get most of our produce from a family farm, as do many people in our area. Where does your produce come from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    It won't bankrupt american farmers. the prices could stay roughly the same and the farmers just won't profit as much,
    No, they won't. Most farms in the US are on razor thin margins right now. One of two things will happen:
    1) The costs will be passed on to the consumers and they will pay it
    2) Consumers will refuse to pay the higher costs and will instead buy Mexican tomatoes. Result - farms bankrupt, and the Mexican labor can then stay in Mexico.
    Razor thin? no more subsidies?


    Quote Originally Posted by Billvon
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf
    beside the point... are their any farmers left? I thought it was all agribusiness?
    We get most of our produce from a family farm, as do many people in our area. Where does your produce come from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneibster View Post
    Here's a good start. My cats don't spray; they're healthy and well-adjusted and like their home and their humans. They scratch on their scratching posts; we have six, plus small ones salted around near their favorite sleeping spots; cats like to stretch and scratch when they wake up. All three of my cats will start purring when I pick them up because they know they will get affection from me.

    Here are some sites that say so:

    Do Cats Feel Affection to Their Owners Like Dogs Do? - Pets
    How Cats Love - 14 Ways Cats Show Their Love
    10 Ways Your Cat Shows You She Loves You

    According to their capabilities, they love me as they are able. And I have evidence. Are we done here?

    Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.
    Ha Ha! more anecdotal evidence. bring some science, oh ignored one!!!
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    People who think cats don't love people are really, really bad cat people and probably bad animal people in the first place.

    Dogs want a God.

    Cats want a Mommy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Razor thin?
    Yes.
    Where does your produce come from?
    Stater brothers
    One of the problems with today's level of societal understanding:
    "XXX is important to farms."
    "Why should I care about farms? I get my food from a grocery store, not a farm."
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    "Why should I care about farms? I get my food from a grocery store, not a farm."
    I know all produce comes from a farm (eggs, milk, etc...). That was my ignorant way of saying I don't know which exact farm it comes from. No sure if its trucked from mexico or grown loacally
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    There is a saying in agriculture, that for some tasks you either need "a machine, or a Mexican."

    I have no problem with farms increasing their level of mechanization. That just creates jobs for American engineers to build the machinery. Cheap labor just keeps us in the dark ages, because the farmer has hardly any incentive to purchase a machine when he can pay a human being a pittance to do all the same work over a longer period of time by hand.
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    But when you deal with an animal a real human with skills dealing with animals is a major asset, and should be paid appropriately. Not only that but no matter what's to happen to the animal, the animal should be well treated. This is simple ethics. You don't put test rabbits in urine- and feces-contaminated cages, merely because they're going to be killed as part of the test. They deserve clean cages, and a clean painless death, if for nothing else than the questions they answer. And the same must surely be true of livestock, if for nothing but our respect for the meat they provide. Clean enviroments, personal freedom to follow their instincts and be happy, and a clean, painless death. I think our stock animals deserve that of us.
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    So frankly, if it takes bringing Mexicans in to tend the cattle, pigs, sheep, and so forth, I'm in favor of it merely because it's better for the animals, and provides good jobs for the humans. Looks like a win/win to me. Maybe some white people would like to go tend these animals too, if it's not beneath their dignity <- heavy sarcasm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I have no problem with farms increasing their level of mechanization. That just creates jobs for American engineers to build the machinery. Cheap labor just keeps us in the dark ages, because the farmer has hardly any incentive to purchase a machine when he can pay a human being a pittance to do all the same work over a longer period of time by hand.
    That works as long as you don't care about unemployment, and don't mind paying more for food. However, per most polls, most Americans care about both those things a great deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    are their any farmers left? I thought it was all agribusiness?
    farmers=agribusiness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    are their any farmers left? I thought it was all agribusiness?
    farmers=agribusiness
    So it's not really farmers it's corporations that grow stuff
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    Corporations are people. Agribusiness are cooperation made up mostly of farmers with support business managers, transportation, wholesalers, lobbyist etc. The result is the cheapest food in the world. Separating agribusiness and farmers is a false distinction.
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    Corporations aren't people. if that's the case then Mitt Romney is one of the biggest serial killers out there, considering how many corporations he's "murdered."
    I'm talking corporations like "Dole," not a group of individuals struggling together and are loosely related through mutual interest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I'm talking corporations like "Dole," not a group of individuals struggling together and are loosely related through mutual interest.
    That's pretty much the definition of a corporation.
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  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I have no problem with farms increasing their level of mechanization. That just creates jobs for American engineers to build the machinery. Cheap labor just keeps us in the dark ages, because the farmer has hardly any incentive to purchase a machine when he can pay a human being a pittance to do all the same work over a longer period of time by hand.
    That works as long as you don't care about unemployment, and don't mind paying more for food. However, per most polls, most Americans care about both those things a great deal.
    It seems kind of hypocritical to talk about unemployment when you're defending the use of immigrants for a labor source.

    If the reason the farmer has to mechanize is because he loses access to cheap immigrant labor and has to hire workers from his own nation, that would seem to lower unemployment for his home nation. That, and the machines aren't building themselves. Someone is getting hired to build them. Mechanization may lower the number of workers in the field itself, but it raises the number of workers in the machine factories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    I'm talking corporations like "Dole," not a group of individuals struggling together and are loosely related through mutual interest.
    That's pretty much the definition of a corporation.
    I knew somebody was gonna call me on that. When I think corporation I think successful oppressors Wal Mart, Kimberly clark, phillip morris... dudes in suits. not dudes in overalls.
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  74. #73  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    not dudes in overalls.
    I think of this guy.
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  75. #74  
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    He certainly doesn't look like a corporate stooge does he?
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    He certainly doesn't look like a corporate stooge does he?
    On the West coast he could well be.

    But I don't understand your condescension towards corporations or the tiny tiny % of people that manage them. The large agro businesses are mostly hundreds and thousands of people including those that actually drive combines--the blue collar far outnumber those white collar. The solitary farms are mostly gone because for the same reason many independent businessmen are now gone--the expertise required is well past anyone's ability to run things efficiently and there's no economy of scale. We should be glad they are mostly gone because like mom and pop stores they hard to charge all of too much to make things meet themselves. What small farms that still exist grow mostly niche crops and that's cool as well for those that can make it work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    He certainly doesn't look like a corporate stooge does he?
    On the West coast he could well be.

    But I don't understand your condescension towards corporations or the tiny tiny % of people that manage them.
    It's been my understanding, that corporations are the elite that screw the rest of the world out of their hard earned cash. Corporations have killed the family farms.
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    "Economy of scale" often comes in the form of the ability to make one, big, concentrated campaign donation to a senator or congressman. I'm pretty sure that's one of the main reasons we'll never be able to get rid of corn subsidies, or get subsidies for some of the other (more useful) crops up to the same level as corn subsidies.

    It's not because the nation is addicted. It's because a few corporations are heavily invested.





    Agricultural subsidy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







    The beneficiaries of the subsidies have changed as agriculture in the United States has changed. In the 1930s, about 25% of the country's population resided on the nation's 6,000,000 small farms. By 1997, 157,000 large farms accounted for 72% of farm sales, with only 2% of the U.S. population residing on farms. In 2006, the top 3 states receiving subsidies were Texas (10.4%), Iowa (9.0%), and Illinois (7.6%). The Total USDA Subsidies from farms in Iowa totaled $1,212,000,000 in 2006.[15] From 2003 to 2005 the top 1% of beneficiaries received 17% of subsidy payments.[15] In Texas, 72% of farms do not receive government subsidies. Of the close to $1.4 Billion in subsidy payments to farms in Texas, roughly 18% of the farms receive a portion of the payments
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    It's been my understanding, that corporations are the elite that screw the rest of the world out of their hard earned cash.
    Right. And poor people sit on their asses all day talking on their Obamaphones, having as many kids as possible so they can rake in the $$$ and living in luxury at the taxpayer's expense. Heck, they wouldn't work even if they could! It would interefere with their drug use.

    Stereotypes are fun but rarely accurate.
    grmpysmrf likes this.
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    We have a policy for LEGAL immigration and those who enter that way should be welcomed. Then we have people here , USA, that are ILLEGAL and as yet there's really very little the government is doing to get them out or imprison those who allow them to work for them. Without the government doing much about this problem shows me they want to flood the workforce with low income people to do their work for few Americans will work for such low wages.
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    Without the government doing much about this problem shows me they want to flood the workforce with low income people to do their work for few Americans will work for such low wages.
    Hanlon's Razor definitely applies here.

    Agree with most of your post, with the caveat that I think we should allow any law-abiding immigrant who wants to work to come here. We need more people who are willing to work those jobs. Otherwise our crops rot in the fields, and that's not good for anyone. However, if they come here illegally, throw the book at them.
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    People can complain about corporations or do their patriotic duty and get in on it as most Americans do:

    It was sad though to see folks pull away just when investing got so darn good...I'm talking 30%+/year returns on my conservative portfolio over the past five years.

    As for the small tiny farm we tend to romanticize like American Gothis... there was a reason for that grimace and sadness--the 20 hour work days, safety problems, huge % of spoiled food, high cost and vulnerability to the vagaries of the weather with few insurance options. No thanks--most of us should be glad that old inefficient farms have been replaced. On a broader scale corporations have been the economic engine for development of the entire modern world and center stage to better the human condition by just about every measure.

    That being said, I do think corporations need significant monitoring and regulations internationally and with full transparency for political donations at home.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; March 19th, 2014 at 08:19 PM.
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