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Thread: Politics and Peace

  1. #1 Politics and Peace 
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    So it's the year 2525 and peace has come to the world. Does politics still exist?


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    I'm trying really hard, but I can't imagine a world peace scenario. Sorry.


    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  4. #3  
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    Cooperative nations... one nation many continents... benevolent leaders... ... ... ? start there.
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    Since by then humans will have become extinct there will be world peace.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
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  6. #5  
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    I'm not sure what "peace" even means, really. Are we just talking about an end to wars? Because far more people die in domestic violence than in war.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Perpeutal war, not peace is the condition of man. So long as states exist there will be conflict between them, whether or not they are led by a knight or a scoundrel.
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    yeah just strife between nations. no more war. one world government if you like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    yeah just strife between nations. no more war. one world government if you like.
    I cannot begin to fathom the bureaucracy of such a project. Sovereignty would also be a huge difficulty.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    yeah just strife between nations. no more war. one world government if you like.
    We're far too different to govern under one legislative body. It's bad enough watching the States go at each other here in the US. I can't imagine a world government. Think Texas is a pain in the butt? Try getting North Korea reigned in.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    yeah just strife between nations. no more war. one world government if you like.
    We're far too different to govern under one legislative body. It's bad enough watching the States go at each other here in the US. I can't imagine a world government. Think Texas is a pain in the butt? Try getting North Korea reigned in.
    That's why the year is 2525 and that stuff has been taken care of. My question is does the politics aspect get taken care of as well? Politics suggest two sides good and evil (selfish Vs selfless if you will) has the world society evolved pas these types of politics?
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    yeah just strife between nations. no more war. one world government if you like.
    We're far too different to govern under one legislative body. It's bad enough watching the States go at each other here in the US. I can't imagine a world government. Think Texas is a pain in the butt? Try getting North Korea reigned in.
    That's why the year is 2525 and that stuff has been taken care of. My question is does the politics aspect get taken care of as well? Politics suggest two sides good and evil (selfish Vs selfless if you will) has the world society evolved pas these types of politics?
    Politics goes beyond good and evil. The hypothetical state has no existence (since there cannot really be any peace, even with a world government there will still be groups of conflicting interests) someone needs to sort out these conflicting interests, and this is where politics comes in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Perpeutal war, not peace is the condition of man. So long as states exist there will be conflict between them, whether or not they are led by a knight or a scoundrel.
    I would say struggle over "perpetual war." are they the same things? I'd like to think no.
    but does that mean politics and struggle (or war if you like) are the same thing or dependent on each other?
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    yeah just strife between nations. no more war. one world government if you like.
    We're far too different to govern under one legislative body. It's bad enough watching the States go at each other here in the US. I can't imagine a world government. Think Texas is a pain in the butt? Try getting North Korea reigned in.
    That's why the year is 2525 and that stuff has been taken care of. My question is does the politics aspect get taken care of as well? Politics suggest two sides good and evil (selfish Vs selfless if you will) has the world society evolved pas these types of politics?
    Politics goes beyond good and evil.
    Ya think? it comes down to perception of good and evil, no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Perpeutal war, not peace is the condition of man. So long as states exist there will be conflict between them, whether or not they are led by a knight or a scoundrel.
    I would say struggle over "perpetual war." are they the same things? I'd like to think no.
    but does that mean politics and struggle (or war if you like) are the same thing or dependent on each other?
    They're not the same as conflict would exist without the political system, politics can be a way of resolving conflict for the benefit of all. I don't see how this hypothetical scenario could exist, if we assume it exists it becomes a pointless exercise. Peace is the absence of conflict (if we can agree on this) so therefore in a peaceful society politics wouldn't need to exist because there would be no need to exercise power over another, apart from this is somewhat wrong as the economy would still need to be handled and therefore you'd need an institution to do this that would have power over others. ???
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    “CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others.”
    “HISTORY, n. An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.”
    “PATRIOT, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.”
    “PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect.”
    “POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.”
    ~Ambrose Bierce
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Peace is the absence of conflict (if we can agree on this) so therefore in a peaceful society politics wouldn't need to exist because there would be no need to exercise power over another, apart from this is somewhat wrong as the economy would still need to be handled and therefore you'd need an institution to do this that would have power over others. ???
    Yeah, this is essentially what I was getting at.
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    “The great questions of the day will be decided not by speeches and majority votes. . . but by blood and iron.”
    ~Otto von Bismark

    “A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.”


    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.”


    “A man will fight harder for his interests than for his rights.”


    “He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat.”


    “History is a set of lies agreed upon.”


    “I can no longer obey; I have tasted command, and I cannot give it up.”


    “If you wish to be a success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing.”


    “Men are more easily governed through their vices than through their virtues.”


    “The act of policing is, in order to punish less often, to punish more severely.”


    “The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue.”


    “There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit.”


    “Women are nothing but machines for producing children.”


    “You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.”


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    “Soldiers usually win the battles and generals get the credit for them.”


    “Treaties are observed as long as they are in harmony with interests.”


    “War justifies everything.”


    “The price of victory is blood!”
    ~Napoleon Bonaparte
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  20. #19  
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    I don't think politicians are going away any time soon, nor do I think there will ever be peace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    I don't think politicians are going away any time soon, nor do I think there will ever be peace.
    I feel worse about the future. I see big problems looming on the horizon caused by over-population. Wars and famine will be the result. I have no faith in mankind. To quote Charlton Heston as Taylor: "You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"
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    By 2525 nation-states may no longer be relevant, thus rendering our current concepts of war and politics moot. But I have to agree with the sentiment of the above posters that as long as man exists, there will be conflict of some sort. A world without conflict would not be housing human beings as we know them, and most likely would be the result of our extinction.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's why the year is 2525 and that stuff has been taken care of. My question is does the politics aspect get taken care of as well? Politics suggest two sides good and evil (selfish Vs selfless if you will) has the world society evolved pas these types of politics?
    I think your premises are screwed up.

    1. World government implies, as is evident in some of the responses, high level, global, one-size-fits-all decision making.
    2. Politics is the art of reconciling differing views on how to handle any situation. It is not about good or bad.

    Therefore, with world peace there would be a world government that took care of those matters that had global impact. There would also be small, semi-formal town hall meetings to deal with very local issues. And everything in between. That assures a sense of involvement in the decision making process.

    An outbreak of peace does not mean that all disagreement would disappear. There would be valid differences on the best way to implement almost any of the decisions that would be required. But the choice would not be between bad and good, but more akin to having fish or pasta as your main course.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    That's why the year is 2525 and that stuff has been taken care of. My question is does the politics aspect get taken care of as well? Politics suggest two sides good and evil (selfish Vs selfless if you will) has the world society evolved pas these types of politics?
    I think your premises are screwed up.

    1. World government implies, as is evident in some of the responses, high level, global, one-size-fits-all decision making.
    2. Politics is the art of reconciling differing views on how to handle any situation. It is not about good or bad.

    Therefore, with world peace there would be a world government that took care of those matters that had global impact. There would also be small, semi-formal town hall meetings to deal with very local issues. And everything in between. That assures a sense of involvement in the decision making process.

    An outbreak of peace does not mean that all disagreement would disappear. There would be valid differences on the best way to implement almost any of the decisions that would be required. But the choice would not be between bad and good, but more akin to having fish or pasta as your main course.
    Truth be told I stole the idea from Laibach's cover of the song 2525... the lyric goes, "in the year 1996 there is no need for politics"
    the song is about war but I figured that lyric specifically spoke about peace. Probably lazily posted on my part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Peace is the absence of conflict (if we can agree on this) so therefore in a peaceful society politics wouldn't need to exist because there would be no need to exercise power over another, apart from this is somewhat wrong as the economy would still need to be handled and therefore you'd need an institution to do this that would have power over others. ???
    Yeah, this is essentially what I was getting at.
    War is failed diplomacy and often creates more trouble than it addresses.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Truth be told I stole the idea from Laibach's cover of the song 2525... the lyric goes, "in the year 1996 there is no need for politics"
    the song is about war but I figured that lyric specifically spoke about peace. Probably lazily posted on my part.
    I thought about it being a reference to In The Year 2525 but I had always interpreted that song to be more about the ages of man than about the end of mankind.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Truth be told I stole the idea from Laibach's cover of the song 2525... the lyric goes, "in the year 1996 there is no need for politics"
    the song is about war but I figured that lyric specifically spoke about peace. Probably lazily posted on my part.
    I thought about it being a reference to In The Year 2525 but I had always interpreted that song to be more about the ages of man than about the end of mankind.
    Could be but the majority seems to be talking about fighting to me, "war destroys the last skyline" "In the year 2525, if man is still alive..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Truth be told I stole the idea from Laibach's cover of the song 2525... the lyric goes, "in the year 1996 there is no need for politics"
    the song is about war but I figured that lyric specifically spoke about peace. Probably lazily posted on my part.
    I thought about it being a reference to In The Year 2525 but I had always interpreted that song to be more about the ages of man than about the end of mankind.
    God, nothing takes you back like music and scent. I remember when the original came out. The artists were from my neighborhood. They were a one-hit wonder and I can't recall their names. The Everly Brothers hailed from nearby Shenandoah, Iowa. Glenn Miller, from Crarinda, Ia., just down the road a bit. I grew-up in Marlon Brando's old neighborhood. What were we talking about ? Oh, yeah, the coming end-times.
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  29. #28  
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    god, nothing takes you back like music and scent.
    qft
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    I don't think "war destroys the last skyline" is in the 1969 lyrics, but I could be wrong, I was only about 13 back then.
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  31. #30  
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    here are the laibach lyrics
    along with the song it's dark and I love the guy's voice

    LAIBACH - 2525 Lyrics
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  32. #31  
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    Those lyrics are a lot different.
    Here is a lyrics site with the original version.
    Zager And Evans - In The Year 2525 Lyrics | MetroLyrics
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    Gee I'm lazy. Zager ad Evans. thanks
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Those lyrics are a lot different.
    Here is a lyrics site with the original version.
    Zager And Evans - In The Year 2525 Lyrics | MetroLyrics
    Wow massively different. I'd had heard the song before and it's super poppy compared to the laibach version but I always thought the lyrics were similar... Not even close.
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  35. #34  
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    "He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
    I somewhat agree with the sentiments expressed in this quote of Einstein, but depart on a logical/analysis level, because it appears to focus too much imo on the symptomatic individual behaviour without analysis what causes are contributing to the contemptuous behaviour.

    We know that Propaganda/Control of information/Secrecy has been used before during and after WW1 to shape the perceptions of the people in favour of WAR (our brains make decisions based on the information, crap in crap out, the marching soldier might not have had access to the education or information that Einstein has benefited from). We also know from the pertinent essay by Smedley Butler that War is a Racket, where Rackets are associated with Secrecy and Money(War Profiteering), both of which often play a role in facilitating War. Himler's quote shortened/paraphrased as ~civilans generally do not want to go to war but that the rulers decide~ is not even required to realize that Hierarchy also plays a major part, major part not only because the political structure or the army that goes to war, but hierarchies are also used to leverage the role that secrecy/disinformation and money play in the war, while money can also be leveraged to help hierarchy's grasp and with manipulation of information.


    So if peace is a reality, I imagine that money, hierarchies and secrecy/control of information no longer exist as we know them, that technology(3d printers, nano-replicator) and automation and new methods of participatory organization allow people to live in comfort without needing money, that such open transparent participatory organizations minimize hierarchic coercion (directly detrimental to liberty and indirectly detrimental to society) and institutional corporatism (detrimental to society), and that the people have free access to education and information from the various transparent organisations that form society which minimizes propaganda/secrecy and enables individuials to make informed decisions (instead of marching in rank and waving a flag).

    What I imagine is different from this, (since unlike the creators of star trek I have had access to many new concepts like open source development methods and many other sources of information) but the following in nonetheless closer to what I imagine than the dark age crap we have today:



    As for politics, I imagine they do exist but not as we know it.

    I do not like any idea of world government, instead politically autonomous communities use inter-community-protocols of their choice while each community has a custom code of conduct (laws/guidelines) and uses a few methods to make decisions based on the type of question; technical or common preferences(direct democracy), personal preferences being the prerogative of individuals in accordance to the community preferences (and it would be easy to choose and move to different communities whose common preferences match your common preferences). Similar to a cruise control or a thermostat, default decisions/procedures could be selected to automate/facilitate the transparent decision process (both the processes and the information/parameters are transparent) which are used as long as no one perceives a problem, if something out of the ordinary occurs the automation is paused like switching cruise control back to manual and scalable direct democracy (transparent too) is used up to a community wide vote. Procedures/protocols/failures/solutions are available for all the worlds communities so they can upgrade, change or consider or review the methods they have. Note that since possessions are no longer an issue, and that you no longer have a mortgage, you are very mobile and can change communities, and since it is decentralized distributed network, people dont have the political skull bashing to try to convince people opposed to the idea while ensuring that a large portion of the people hate the end result, such political one size fits all circus of bikering would be minimized. The focus to problem solving would emphasize technical solutions and prevention/education as opposed to the reflex of relying on laws/repression.
    Last edited by icewendigo; March 6th, 2014 at 01:53 PM.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    So it's the year 2525 and peace has come to the world. Does politics still exist?
    Politics (definition)- activities that relate to influencing the actions and policies of a government, or getting and keeping power in a government.

    Politics - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary



    I believe large human societies need to have leaders, because without leaders there would be chaos. So I would say government leaders would still exist (and politics would also exist.)

    Even without war people would still have different desires of what they wanted their government to do. Some citizens may want resources used to build human settlements in space, others may want resources used to improve structures on Earth, others may want resources used to build a spacecraft to bring humans to another star with a Earth like planet, ex.ex. And people would use politics to try to get their desires fulfilled.

    And I believe certain environmental and social issues would still exist, like can people legally hunt certain animals, or can people use vulgar words on television. And people would use politics to try to get their desires enforced by the government.

    And I assume their would still be political parties. Perhaps one political party would desire most resources to be used to put humans on other planets. And the other political party would want resources used to improve human life and also build up and strengthen wildlife ecosystems, ex.ex.

    And liberals and conservatives would still exist, and perhaps the same (fundamental) desires they both have today, would still exist 500 years from now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Since by then humans will have become extinct there will be world peace.
    "Careful what you're dreamin' 'cause it some day may come true."
    -Hal Ketchum.


    With all respects,
    Chad.
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    The only problem with deriding politicians is that they're in charge.
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    I believe large human societies need to have leaders, because without leaders there would be chaos.

    Why?


    Some citizens may want resources used to build human settlements in space, others may want resources used to improve structures on Earth

    The Earth is big, we probably have raw materials/resources to do both (with recycling and alternate materials/substitutes)?



    Last edited by icewendigo; March 11th, 2014 at 01:51 PM.
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    Politics HAS to exists. And politics isn't synonym of wars and hate. Whoever says that is either a dumb communist or an anarchist
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    I believe the only way peace can exist between humans is genetic modification. To remove the hunter, conquerer, alpha that dominates our human history. We get close to overcoming these problems after major wars but that only lasts as far as the memory of those who witnessed such horrors. We set up the U.n to try and bring in international law to help protect us from a nuclear holocaust but without a real means to do anything unless everyone agrees. Its a mere token of good will. The closest thing to a peaceful existence will be a universal law , which prohibits war, prohibits regime control , and classes the human race as one, not as individual races. Laws that are in design to protect us from what we are...human. This would require humans defining themselves first and foremost as humans. Recognizing the flawed species that they are. I do not agree that we can educate our children to create a utopia unless we deal with our natural instinctive faults. The world is a reflection of our human nature. We are all part of the same problem. Sadly with religion, nationalism and a host of other human systems of existence , Humans will always be competing against themselves. I can't believe logic will defeat emotion. Once the tribal surfaces , humans revert back to the monkeys they are. Logic takes a back seat to madness and death. There is nothing logical about war apart from.. it keeps our populations down. We always have enemies ... if we don't we create them.

    As for politics...it has to be here unless we hand over all administrative control to a computer.
    Last edited by jonio; April 16th, 2014 at 01:06 AM.
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