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Thread: Furloughed "Non-essentials"

  1. #1 Furloughed "Non-essentials" 
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    Heard a spokesperson for the Government state that, "800,000 "non-essential" governmental employees will be furloughed" ".

    God-awful lot of payroll there. If they are non-essential, why the hell aren't they all sent out to be employed somewhere in the country's economy where their efforts will produce viable product, something of substance that will prove to ADD to domestic product, instead of remaining as parasitic liability? jocular


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    Because we're shipping all our employment off to China, now and boosting their economy, instead.

    This is why buying a quality hand tool that won't break under 100 ft lbs or torque is a difficult task or outrageously expensive.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    God-awful lot of payroll there. If they are non-essential, why the hell aren't they all sent out to be employed somewhere in the country's economy where their efforts will produce viable product, something of substance that will prove to ADD to domestic product, instead of remaining as parasitic liability? jocular
    Because non-essential does not equal "useless" or "nonproductive."

    The guy who orders the uniforms, vests, guns, ammunition, cars, radios etc for your local police department is probably considered non-essential. You could probably go a few weeks without him. But eventually he'd be sorely missed.
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    Essential basically boils down to protecting life and property. If a natural gas tanker explodes in Houston harbor, Syria launches a chemical attack on Israel, a Tsunami sweeps the West Coast, or Cat V Hurricane forms in the Gulf we probably want people to monitor, respond and advise. Most of the non-essential jobs are still important, such as the guy or girl who next case was reviewing a disability claims for the Sergeant with three kids recently discharged after loosing three limbs to a mortar attack in Afghanistan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Because we're shipping all our employment off to China, now and boosting their economy, instead.

    This is why buying a quality hand tool that won't break under 100 ft lbs or torque is a difficult task or outrageously expensive.
    Not if you buy some of the old used ones from closing factory sales. I scrounged a neat aluminum corded drill that ran off of compressed air.
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    I want one, too... Ship it to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    God-awful lot of payroll there. If they are non-essential, why the hell aren't they all sent out to be employed somewhere in the country's economy where their efforts will produce viable product, something of substance that will prove to ADD to domestic product, instead of remaining as parasitic liability? jocular
    Because non-essential does not equal "useless" or "nonproductive."

    The guy who orders the uniforms, vests, guns, ammunition, cars, radios etc for your local police department is probably considered non-essential. You could probably go a few weeks without him. But eventually he'd be sorely missed.
    Do you truly believe every one of those "non-essentials" would eventually be "sorely missed"? Members of Congress have innumerable aides and interns all on the payroll, something like four-thousand of them, or more. Are those folks actually producing results worthy of their being employed thusly? Why could my "local police department" not order it's own supplies? Or are you saying, the Fed supplies everything in order to maintain political "indebtedness" among the non-Fed sector? jocular
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    A bit off-thread: Now it's been made newsworthy that some character in Nevada has been convicted and sentenced to something like 2 years for illegally syphoning campaign contributions to Sen. Reid. Reid, of course, was not aware that some of the monies he received which captured the election were mis-begotten. Like he himself is. jocular
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    God-awful lot of payroll there.
    For a country of 340 million people I think that's pretty good. Might even be a bit underdone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Might even be a bit underdone.
    Let's just fire them all. After-all, the entire reason for the process is due to partisan bickering in the first place. Underdone, indeed.
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    Some congress critters are refusing or donating their pay.

    Which lawmakers will refuse their pay during the shutdown?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Do you truly believe every one of those "non-essentials" would eventually be "sorely missed"?
    Most of them, yes.

    There is a popular misconception, fostered by politicians who wish to gain entrance to public office, that there's oodles of waste, and that it's just a matter of "trimming the fat." It's a great image, right? It evokes an image of a careful politician just slicing off the waste without harming the meat, thus leading to more efficient government and less overall expenditure. Just elect Joe Politician and he will cut that fat away and reduce your taxes!

    Unfortunately, politicians have been "trimming the fat" for about 200 years. And we're getting to the point where the fat we trim isn't really fat any more.

    What else can we cut? We can stop maintaining bridges. (In fact we've already cut way back.) We can reduce government oversight. We can stop paying politicians. All those things sound pretty good in the short term. But do you really want to drive on those bridges, or be governed only by people who don't need to work to make a living?

    Or we can actually start cutting the meat. Cut pay for US troops; that will also reduce enrollment in the military and thus result in more savings. We can cut out fighter planes and ships, which reduces military strength, but we're probably stronger than we need to be already. We can cut medicare, medicaid and social security (where most of our money goes) - but that will absolutely be sorely missed. We can close the DMV and the IRS and the NTSB and the CDC, but then you don't get refunds, and your aircraft aren't as safe, and contagious diseases become more of a worry.

    Overall we DO spend way too much money. But it's not money that's easy to cut. We should (in fact we have to) cut expenditures, but the only way to do that will involve pain on our part. There's not much "fat" left to trim.

    Members of Congress have innumerable aides and interns all on the payroll, something like four-thousand of them, or more. Are those folks actually producing results worthy of their being employed thusly?
    Most of them are providing value to their respective bosses. Are they really providing value to us? Hard to say. If a politician employs too many people it would seem to make more sense to oust the politician rather than tell him he can't have enough staff to support him.

    Why could my "local police department" not order it's own supplies?
    They do. But if you get rid of the guy ordering all of them because he's "nonessential" then you will feel the pinch later.
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    [QUOTE=jocular;466955]
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Do you truly believe every one of those "non-essentials" would eventually be "sorely missed"?
    Of course not, but much of it is relative. The average American won't miss that guy who's no longer reviewing medical records for the VA; I won't miss the National Park Ranger assigned to that historical one room school house near Louisville Kentucky, but it would have been nice to go to the National Wildlife sanctuary that I went by today.

    Members of Congress have innumerable aides and interns all on the payroll,
    Aids and Congressional staffs probably aren't' the best examples of waste, given how complex the government is they probably should have more of them to sort out things--such as summarizing and confirming intent of 20,000 pages of legalize for this new program.

    The amount of government fat at the federal level is relatively low, and overall efficiency has dramatically improved over the past few decades--it's just a popular target.
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    Non-essential staff at the National Institutes of Health?

    Republicans hate children, too » Pharyngula
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    God-awful lot of payroll there.
    For a country of 340 million people I think that's pretty good. Might even be a bit underdone.
    Using your numbers, and the 800,000 non-essentials, that comes to one non-essential for every 425 persons. I challenge you to stop the first 425 persons you encounter (you would have to be HERE), and ask each one just exactly what, that they know of, was done for them, in their favor, recently, by an employee of the Federal Government. jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Some congress critters are refusing or donating their pay.

    Which lawmakers will refuse their pay during the shutdown?
    You cannot seriously BELIEVE that any truth lies in such B.S. being fed to the general public, can you? I am surprised at you! joc
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    [QUOTE=Lynx_Fox;466969]
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Do you truly believe every one of those "non-essentials" would eventually be "sorely missed"?
    Of course not, but much of it is relative. The average American won't miss that guy who's no longer reviewing medical records for the VA; I won't miss the National Park Ranger assigned to that historical one room school house near Louisville Kentucky, but it would have been nice to go to the National Wildlife sanctuary that I went by today.

    Members of Congress have innumerable aides and interns all on the payroll,
    Aids and Congressional staffs probably aren't' the best examples of waste, given how complex the government is they probably should have more of them to sort out things--such as summarizing and confirming intent of 20,000 pages of legalize for this new program.

    The amount of government fat at the federal level is relatively low, and overall efficiency has dramatically improved over the past few decades--it's just a popular target.
    I am, quite frankly, flabbergasted and nearly speechless by such utterings! Admit it, ya gotta be on the "take", right? joc
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    exactly what, that they know of, was done for them, in their favor, recently, by an employee of the Federal Government. jocular
    What all of them do for everyone is save millions of individuals the trouble of working out what ought to be done for ...

    providing benefits for veterans,
    providing medical research for mysterious diseases we can't pronounce the name of,
    providing routine and emergency reports for weather, shipping and storms
    providing agricultural research to control pests and diseases we can't pronounce the names of,
    allocating priorities / funding to strengthen or replace failing bridges
    investigating tax dodgers
    directing funds for purchase of firefighting and other safety equipment for public land
    negotiating with drug companies about the costs of vaccines for public health programs
    assessing flood control proposals

    ... along with thousands and thousands of tasks that are usually out of sight, out of mind when things are going along normally.

    Or are you seriously suggesting that someone in an East Coast city is entitled to disregard or devalue the work of public servants looking to control, prevent or to anticipate fighting forest fires in the Rockies?

    What have you done for me lately is a toddler level attitude to national government.
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    Weren't you saying a moment ago it was underdone? I'm thoroughly confused...
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    Weren't you saying a moment ago it was underdone?
    Yup. From my limited perspective, the US puts too little effort/ staffhours/ money into projects and activities that are quite routine in most rich countries and far too much effort/ violence/ staffhours into excessive approaches to enforcement of a whole variety of laws. On balance, they still fall short.

    I'm also completely aware of the large differences which distinguish the US from the rest of us apart from your huge population. And that your policies as well as structural stuff related to "states rights" has been permanently poisoned by race. The US would have had a good start to a universal health system in the 50s if Eisenhower's proposal had succeeded. Dwight D. Eisenhower: Special Message to the Congress Recommending a Health Program. One of the main obstacles to its implementation was the resistance of the southern democrats to the idea of health care for coloured folks being paid for by tax dollars. There are a couple of other issues.

    Firstly the legacy of lawlessness and extreme police approaches arising from Prohibition along with your silly gun laws mean that you've been unable to modernise and modify these approaches in the ways that other English speaking countries have. Secondly, the way the US has allowed itself to be bankrupted by cutting taxes to idiotic levels. All those Americans who look back longingly to the prosperity and stability of the 1950s are firstly looking through rose-coloured glasses (or whatever colour it takes to omit the black and indigenous populations of the time along with the deeply unattractive McCarthyism) but more importantly overlooking the tax collections of the time. Particularly in relation to high income earners




    http://www.businessinsider.com/histo...tes?op=1/?IR=T

    It's one thing for individual Americans to look across the border and envy the Canadian health system. They should look a bit harder at other aspects of social/ political organisation and, particularly, the lower levels of violence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Using your numbers, and the 800,000 non-essentials, that comes to one non-essential for every 425 persons. I challenge you to stop the first 425 persons you encounter (you would have to be HERE), and ask each one just exactly what, that they know of, was done for them, in their favor, recently, by an employee of the Federal Government. jocular
    Here would be my list:

    I flew across the world recently on business. Air traffic control helped my flight get off safely. The NTSB helped make sure the aircraft was safe.
    A few weeks before that I was at a skydiving competition. Again air traffic control managed the airspace so we could jump from 12,500 feet even though we were near Chicago and its airports.
    I drove to work yesterday. Those roads were paid for, in part, by the federal government.
    I got a flu shot earlier this year. That flu shot was based on the best guess of the CDC (and the WHO) as to what flu bugs would be prevalent this year. It's managed by the FDA to ensure that it's not going to make you sick.
    A few days ago I had to stay home to watch my son, so I called into a few meetings. The frequencies that that cellphone used were managed by the FCC to help ensure that it was available to my cellular carrier for my use.

    How about you? Do you ever fly, or go somewhere you need a passport, or drive on roads? Do you eat food that is sold in stores? Do you use cellphones, radios or TV's?

    Again, we spend far too much on government here. But to claim "they don't do anything for me; they're non-essential" is just silly.
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    I have a long-time friend who works at the CDC. Her concern was their impairment in tracking the spread of infectious disease while the furlough is in action. I sent her a text at 3 am that said, "Someone outside my house. Inquiring about my brains. Got any info?"

    She was not amused.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Heard a spokesperson for the Government state that, "800,000 "non-essential" governmental employees will be furloughed" ".

    God-awful lot of payroll there. If they are non-essential, why the hell aren't they all sent out to be employed somewhere in the country's economy where their efforts will produce viable product, something of substance that will prove to ADD to domestic product, instead of remaining as parasitic liability? jocular
    Umm... Dude! Have you checked out the unemployment rates? let's add another 800,000 to those roles? That's 800,000 people who are going to stop spending on anything not absolutely essential. 800,000 less customers for coffee shops, restaurants, auto mechanics, beauty shops. Those businesses are going to lay off some workers in an environment of reduced demand. What about the reduced amount of shipping and freight due to reduced demand? There go some trucking, rail, and longshoreman job's.
    No blood(money) in the parasites(consumers), no food for the next level of predator(goods and service providers). Everything dies!

    Now c'mon Jocular, those government workers are all somebody's dad, mother, sister, brother, mom, wife etc... And you just called every single employed, tax paying one of them a parasite. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Using your numbers, and the 800,000 non-essentials, that comes to one non-essential for every 425 persons. I challenge you to stop the first 425 persons you encounter (you would have to be HERE), and ask each one just exactly what, that they know of, was done for them, in their favor, recently, by an employee of the Federal Government. jocular
    Here would be my list:

    I flew across the world recently on business. Air traffic control helped my flight get off safely. The NTSB helped make sure the aircraft was safe.
    A few weeks before that I was at a skydiving competition. Again air traffic control managed the airspace so we could jump from 12,500 feet even though we were near Chicago and its airports.
    I drove to work yesterday. Those roads were paid for, in part, by the federal government.
    I got a flu shot earlier this year. That flu shot was based on the best guess of the CDC (and the WHO) as to what flu bugs would be prevalent this year. It's managed by the FDA to ensure that it's not going to make you sick.
    A few days ago I had to stay home to watch my son, so I called into a few meetings. The frequencies that that cellphone used were managed by the FCC to help ensure that it was available to my cellular carrier for my use.

    How about you? Do you ever fly, or go somewhere you need a passport, or drive on roads? Do you eat food that is sold in stores? Do you use cellphones, radios or TV's?

    Again, we spend far too much on government here. But to claim "they don't do anything for me; they're non-essential" is just silly.
    Not exactly "self-sufficient", are you? joc
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Not exactly "self-sufficient", are you? joc
    No, I'm not. Almost no one is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Heard a spokesperson for the Government state that, "800,000 "non-essential" governmental employees will be furloughed" ".

    God-awful lot of payroll there. If they are non-essential, why the hell aren't they all sent out to be employed somewhere in the country's economy where their efforts will produce viable product, something of substance that will prove to ADD to domestic product, instead of remaining as parasitic liability? jocular
    Umm... Dude! Have you checked out the unemployment rates? let's add another 800,000 to those roles? That's 800,000 people who are going to stop spending on anything not absolutely essential. 800,000 less customers for coffee shops, restaurants, auto mechanics, beauty shops. Those businesses are going to lay off some workers in an environment of reduced demand. What about the reduced amount of shipping and freight due to reduced demand? There go some trucking, rail, and longshoreman job's.
    No blood(money) in the parasites(consumers), no food for the next level of predator(goods and service providers). Everything dies!

    Now c'mon Jocular, those government workers are all somebody's dad, mother, sister, brother, mom, wife etc... And you just called every single employed, tax paying one of them a parasite. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    EVERYTHING about government is parasitic, can't you see that? Look up the definition: Government cannot exist without being parasitic, via taxation. I did NOT say parasitism, as such, was evil, or even unacceptable. What I AM saying is that, "employees" who perform various duties while producing no viable product, are parasitic.

    And you consider the 800,000 "employees" whose PAY depends solely on TAXES paid to their "employer", are an ASSET? And that were they added to the unemployment roles, they would be a WORSE burden to society than situated in their government jobs? You can't see that those folks struggling to pay their bills, PAY those 800,000 FIRST, in the form of monies STOLEN out of their paychecks before they even get them? jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    EVERYTHING about government is parasitic, can't you see that? Look up the definition: Government cannot exist without being parasitic, via taxation. I did NOT say parasitism, as such, was evil, or even unacceptable. What I AM saying is that, "employees" who perform various duties while producing no viable product, are parasitic. r
    Actually if there's a definition that needs looking up, it's the term parasitic. Parasites, by definition, offer nothing positive to the host. That's simply not the case for most government workers. The relationship between government worker and non-government tax payers is a symbiotic relationship.
    --
    And don't think they could be added to the unemployment roles anyhow...there's no one working at those offices. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Heard a spokesperson for the Government state that, "800,000 "non-essential" governmental employees will be furloughed" ".

    God-awful lot of payroll there. If they are non-essential, why the hell aren't they all sent out to be employed somewhere in the country's economy where their efforts will produce viable product, something of substance that will prove to ADD to domestic product, instead of remaining as parasitic liability? jocular
    Umm... Dude! Have you checked out the unemployment rates? let's add another 800,000 to those roles? That's 800,000 people who are going to stop spending on anything not absolutely essential. 800,000 less customers for coffee shops, restaurants, auto mechanics, beauty shops. Those businesses are going to lay off some workers in an environment of reduced demand. What about the reduced amount of shipping and freight due to reduced demand? There go some trucking, rail, and longshoreman job's.
    No blood(money) in the parasites(consumers), no food for the next level of predator(goods and service providers). Everything dies!

    Now c'mon Jocular, those government workers are all somebody's dad, mother, sister, brother, mom, wife etc... And you just called every single employed, tax paying one of them a parasite. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    EVERYTHING about government is parasitic, can't you see that? Look up the definition: Government cannot exist without being parasitic, via taxation. I did NOT say parasitism, as such, was evil, or even unacceptable. What I AM saying is that, "employees" who perform various duties while producing no viable product, are parasitic.

    And you consider the 800,000 "employees" whose PAY depends solely on TAXES paid to their "employer", are an ASSET? And that were they added to the unemployment roles, they would be a WORSE burden to society than situated in their government jobs? You can't see that those folks struggling to pay their bills, PAY those 800,000 FIRST, in the form of monies STOLEN out of their paychecks before they even get them? jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    What I AM saying is that, "employees" who perform various duties while producing no viable product, are parasitic.
    Agreed. I don't know of anyone in government who fits that description. You may think that the product a given worker produces is useless, but clearly not everyone does.

    (If we were to use your definition, then brewers would be considered parasites if the person opining on the topic did not like beer.)

    And you consider the 800,000 "employees" whose PAY depends solely on TAXES paid to their "employer", are an ASSET? And that were they added to the unemployment roles, they would be a WORSE burden to society than situated in their government jobs?
    Yes. In general it is better to pay someone to work than to pay them to do nothing.

    You can't see that those folks struggling to pay their bills, PAY those 800,000 FIRST, in the form of monies STOLEN out of their paychecks before they even get them? jocular
    Can you see that those 800,000 are ALSO struggling to pay their bills? In general it is preferable to give someone a job than to just give them money (IMO of course.)
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    Oh hey, and there is this; Taxpayers pick up bill if government shuts down

    Apparently the shutdown actually cost's much more long range, than the salaries of the non-essential workers.
    Quote Originally Posted by From the Link
    The Pentagon alone is expected to furlough 400,000 civilian workers, according to a Defense official, who added that a shutdown would delay death benefits to the families of military who die on active duty.
    The government would also lose money from revenue, fees, and fines. The Environmental Protection Agency, for example, estimated that $63 million in environmental inspection fines weren’t collected in 1995-96. About 200,000 passport applications went unprocessed, as did 20,000-30,000 visa applications from foreigners every day, which meant lost application fees. Over 1,000 export licenses and their accompanying fees were also delayed, according to OMB.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Definitely. This isn't just a "dang, all the libraries are closed" issue. We will end up paying the price for this shutdown in the long term.
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular
    I AM saying is that, "employees" who perform various duties while producing no viable product, are parasitic.
    Like ambulance drivers, or firefighters. They don't actually manufacture anything. Law enforcement personnel are rarely involved in manufacturing. College professors don't actually manufacture material goods, neither do nurses. Oh, truck drivers don't actually manufacture any product, they just transport it. Same goes for aircraft pilots, they don't really manufacture anything.
    Of course, somebody, somewhere, has just improvised a bong. Now, they manufactured a material good.
    So while ambulance drivers, firefighters, police, college professors, nurses, truck drivers, and aircraft pilots are all parasites, the dude who just built a bong isn't.
    Okay, I get it.
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    EVERYTHING about government is parasitic, can't you see that? Look up the definition: Government cannot exist without being parasitic, via taxation. I did NOT say parasitism, as such, was evil, or even unacceptable. What I AM saying is that, "employees" who perform various duties while producing no viable product, are parasitic. r
    Actually if there's a definition that needs looking up, it's the term parasitic. Parasites, by definition, offer nothing positive to the host. That's simply not the case for most government workers. The relationship between government worker and non-government tax payers is a symbiotic relationship.
    --
    And don't think they could be added to the unemployment roles anyhow...there's no one working at those offices. :-)
    That definition is not entirely correct. There are parasites absolutely essential to maintaining the viability of their host. Perhaps government is one. jocular
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    There are parasites absolutely essential to maintaining the viability of their host. Perhaps government is one.
    Governments are just villages writ large.

    If we all lived in a smallish township and had no resources or facilities available from elsewhere, we'd do what government does. Neighbours would feed the kids of families who were a bit short for some reason or pop in to help out someone who was sick or injured. The whole town would roll up their sleeves to repair storm damaged houses or fight fires.

    The fact that we don't live in those circumstances doesn't mean that those sharing, charitable or neighbourly actions are no longer needed. We just organise them differently. We're much more in the position of Samaritans who don't even know the people they're helping - but we do it because it's the right thing to do.

    And we like to do it the easy way. Paying taxes is a hell of a lot easier and less time consuming, not to say stressful, than having to deal with dying children or assessing which people are the poorest and therefore the first in line for something or other or checking the bona fides of people claiming benefits/ subsidies/ grants of various sorts. And we insist on safe food and sturdy bridges and other public benefits which we may never get any personal result from - apart from living in a society that doesn't allow criminal negligence to spread salmonella through the population or hundreds of miners to die every year in unsafe working conditions.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular
    That definition is not entirely correct. There are parasites absolutely essential to maintaining the viability of their host. Perhaps government is one. jocular
    In that case they are called symbiotes; .wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiot
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  37. #36 Best summed up by one small child in THE BEST HAT KNOWN TO MANKIND! 
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    As reported in one Australian News site today:




    YOU can imagine the week this kid had. In fact, you probably lived the same thing when you were his age.

    Every day you’d ask mum how many sleeps until the zoo. You would go to bed at night and dream about it. And you’d brag to your mates at kindy about all the animals you were going to see.


    Then on the day, you put on the cutest thing in your wardrobe: a brown beanie with bear ears and a tuft of bear fur sprouting from the top.


    This kid is the cutest thing out.


    So it’s heartbreaking that when his big day at the zoo finally came, the front gate was shut and a sign advised visitors that they’ll just have to come back when the government shutdown is over.


    You see, under the current furlough, a bunch of national parks, monuments and attractions are closed because there’s no funding to keep them open.


    Stop the madness, America’s federal politicians.


    Look at this kid gazing longingly through the zoo gate and stop the madness.
    I think that about sums it up.
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