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Thread: Yelena Isinbayeva.

  1. #1 Yelena Isinbayeva. 
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    Does anyone feel strongly about the comments made by Yelena Isinbayeva, a sporting icon in Russia, supporting Russia's new laws affecting gay people?
    She is said to be close to the circle of President Putin. Is it possible that, despite her fame, she came under pressure to announce her support for the new measures? One would have thought that other advisers, around her, would be aware the damage such comments would make, to her image, in many other countries.
    I am sure Putin, and his associates, are still able to put considerable pressure on individuals inside Russia. Sometimes I feel inclined to dismiss him as an ex-KGB thug, but I'm almost certain that would be unfair!


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    I disagree with her.

    Sure it's possible that the government put pressure on her, it's also possible it's her own thoughts on the matter.

    As for damage, I'm not so sure, about half the world and probably something like a quarter of America agrees with her.

    I'd love to see the American and European teams where purple buttons or something similar in subtle protest.


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    Here's a summary of the law:

    "Here is what Article 6.21 actually says:

    Propaganda is the act of distributing information among minors that 1) is aimed at the creating nontraditional sexual attitudes, 2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive, 3) equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations, or 4) creates an interest in nontraditional sexual relations.
    If you’re Russian. Individuals engaging in such propaganda can be fined 4,000 to 5,000 rubles (120-150 USD), public officials are subject to fines of 40,000 to 50,000 rubles (1,200-1,500 USD), and registered organizations can be either fined (800,000-1,000,000 rubles or 24,000-30,000 USD) or sanctioned to stop operations for 90 days. If you engage in the said propaganda in the media or on the internet, the sliding scale of fines shifts: for individuals, 50,000 to 100,000 rubles; for public officials, 100,000 to 200,000 rubles, and for organizations, from one million rubles or a 90-day suspension.

    If you’re an alien. Foreign citizens or stateless persons engaging in propaganda are subject to a fine of 4,000 to 5,000 rubles, or they can be deported from the Russian Federation and/or serve 15 days in jail. If a foreigner uses the media or the internet to engage in propaganda, the fines increase to 50,000-100,000 rubles or a 15-day detention with subsequent deportation from Russia."

    Russia's Anti-Gay Law, Spelled Out in Plain English
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    So why do you dislike the law? Do you think it does prohibit something that is younger people really need and something that is a duty of every conscious citizen to do?
    Because the definition of "propaganda" is pretty loose (for want of a better word). The way it's set up health authorities can't even do quite straightforward safer sex messaging directed at same sex people without running afoul of the laws.

    And it's predicated on a myth in the first place. No one "promotes" same sex activities to minors. The main activity relating to same sex relationships for people who deal with minors would be anti-bullying in schools. This legislation will be pro bullying at the schoolyard level.
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    Any discussion by even sexual education teachers about same-sex relationships, such in even a nuetral sense could easily be interpreted as equating non-traditional with traditional relationship--that would apply for adult or minor relationships. The law will sanction bullying by officials of the school against students who demonstrate, or discuss in anywhere their gay sexual preference. Media would obviously be in the same situation--put on a show that shows a main character as possibly gay (e.g., Gabrielle from a translated Xena/Hercules eposode) could be considered propaganda. The law is an attack on free speech, as well as largely anti-science.
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    I'm not sure that in every country parents and society are comfortable about any open sexual activity that minors have in the schools.
    I don't know where you are, but here the word gay has been used for years as an insult to and about people and as a sneer about anything at all that kids of school age want to denigrate. I have no idea whether this legislation would have an effect on people like me telling kids who dismiss the work I put in front of them as 'that's gay'. If I were to suggest that using gay as an insult for anything and everything was a bad thing to do would that put me offside with the authorities? I don't know but I wouldn't like to test it in countries like Russia, let alone those African countries that impose the death penalty for similarly undefined "support" for "the gay lifestyle".

    School kids rarely need to see anything remotely like "open sexual activity" to get their anti-gay juices flowing. All they need is the idea that gay is something horrible and they can make the life of anyone who looks a bit different into a living hell. If they are in fact gay, that's a bullies' bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Personally, I believe that any sexual themes should be completely removed from generally accessible mass media.
    What century are you living in?
    What other kinds of information would you like to control and censor according to your own judgements on what is acceptable?
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    What century are you living in?
    What other kinds of information would you like to control and censor according to your own judgements on what is acceptable?
    What do you think about recent initiative of British prime-minister to establish Internet censorship? British government introduces Internet censorship filters - World Socialist Web Site
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    What do you think about recent initiative of British prime-minister to establish Internet censorship? British government introduces Internet censorship filters - World Socialist Web Site
    Looks like an example of appallingly bad journalism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I'm not sure that having sexual education teachers in the schools is a good idea by itself. Personally, if I would be a minor I would prefer that teachers or any adults with sexual themes and sensual materials would stay away from me. I would regard it as a molestation. From what I know there is no regular sexual education teachers in Russia and many other countries.
    Sex education isn't regularly taught in Russia, which is one of the primary reasons they have high spread of Aids and other STDs, high teenage pregnancy rates and one of the highest rates of abortion.


    So, this is an officials in the schools who will bull minors?! I could hardly imagine something like this.
    It's easy, a gay student comes out of the closet, the teacher threatens him and parents with legal action...bullying.


    Personally, I believe that any sexual themes should be completely removed from generally accessible mass media.

    So much for Shakespeare I guess. Sexuality is part of the human (and every other animal) experience--why shouldn't it be part of media. Note the Russian law isn't just talking about pornography here. If an entertainment program, book or play, has a gay character, it could be construed as propaganda.

    In my understanding the freedom of speech is a something that relates primarily to political views or political messages.
    Than you understand wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Here's a summary of the law:

    "Here is what Article 6.21 actually says:

    Propaganda is the act of distributing information among minors....




    There's the issue right there. "Among minors". In the USA it's illegal to sell pornography to anyone under the age of 18. So .... it kind of seems hypocritical to be up in arms about this.

    Legislating what kind of literature a minor can and cannot be exposed to is already accepted in the USA.

    Beyond that, many American parents would be outraged if they discovered that anyone was trying to influence their children in a homosexual direction without their express permission. It's allowed in public schools only because the majority of parents have agreed to allow it, and even then many parents assert the right to bar it from being presented to their own children specifically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    It's easy, a gay student comes out of the closet, the teacher threatens him and parents with legal action...bullying.
    This is as much laughable as it is absurd. I can't imaging Russian teacher ever behaving like that.
    Why do you have trouble imagining a teacher would enforce a law?
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    Do you ever consider how many movies are rated "R" because of "Drug Reference" or "Swearing", but don't actually contain any violence or sexuality? Yet it's illegal for a child under the age of 17 to go to such a movie without a parent. Sometimes theaters are lax about it, but I've seen the rule enforced. I was at the ticket counter once in Portland and this guy asked if he could just let his two sons into the movie and then leave. The manager wouldn't hear anything of it. Last thing any theater owner wants is to have their license revoked.


    So discussion about homosexuality is fine in the USA. But swearing or talking about drug use..... not so fine?


    My point is.... something about tea kettles calling the pot black? Or the other way around?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    The laws in democratic countries supposed to be passed on behalf of populations majority.
    Nope, they are actually passed to protect the minority and avoid tyranny of the masses or by leaders.

    Yet it's illegal for a child under the age of 17 to go to such a movie without a parent.

    Not sure any states have that law--though many theaters might enforce it as their policy. And this is sort of off topic, there's a big difference between what you might see in an R, NC-17, or X movie and the subtle types of information that might be construed as propaganda. For a teacher, it might be viewing Greek art, or discussing the life or Nero in Roman history, or just saying it's ok for two boys to hold hands on their way to the math class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Yet it's illegal for a child under the age of 17 to go to such a movie without a parent.

    Not sure any states have that law--though many theaters might enforce it as their policy. And this is sort of off topic, there's a big difference between what you might see in an R, NC-17, or X movie and the subtle types of information that might be construed as propaganda. For a teacher, it might be viewing Greek art, or discussing the life or Nero in Roman history, or just saying it's ok for two boys to hold hands on their way to the math class.
    I went ahead and did a search to make sure. Yes. At least one state, Tennessee, has it.

    TN Law: 18 to buy R-rated movie tickets - Action News 5 - Memphis, Tennessee

    And... with that.... the USA immediately falls off of its high horse. Looks like we allow censorship too, at least when it pertains to minors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Do you agree with this homophobic legislation?
    No!

    To me it is plain unjust and HATEFUL!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Fortunately for me I didn't encounter a school history teacher who would start conversation with children about sexual lifestyle of an ancient people. I would regard him as a pervert.
    Stanlye, you ought to place this statement in your signature line, then members would know instantly where you stood politically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by john galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stanley514 View Post
    fortunately for me i didn't encounter a school history teacher who would start conversation with children about sexual lifestyle of an ancient people. I would regard him as a pervert.
    stanlye, you ought to place this statement in your signature line, then members would know instantly where you stood politically.

    applause!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    A young Goulburn teacher has been arrested after allegedly making inappropriate comments to two 15-year-old students last week.
    I'm not sure why you posted that other than make some odd comparison between a teacher supporting in some way child-abuse and a history teacher actually teaching about the people who made that history (or were made by history). For example, it's simply irresponsible to teach about the Greek history without mentioning their sexuality in some fashion--it's a key component of their arts, culture and mythologies. Yet under the vague new propaganda laws a teacher might not even go as far as discuss the original Olympic games, the preparations for the battle of Thermopylae, or show a Greek wrestling sculpture out of fear that they might be charged with inferring that homosexuality is ok. (and we wonder why history is so damned boring to children?).

    The statement about boys holding hands is just as extreme. Children holding hands, hugging etc is part of the human experience and there not only nothing wrong with it--it's emotionally healthier for them. (as it is for adults).
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    Does anyone feel strongly about the comments made by Yelena Isinbayeva

    I dont, I dont follow olympics and never heard of Yelena something-something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    then members would know instantly where you stood politically.
    And where exactly? I'm ignorant about it. Could you provide similar precedents? I thought that indecent conversation with minors is part of criminal codex.
    A young Goulburn teacher has been arrested after allegedly making inappropriate comments to two 15-year-old students last week.
    Read more: Teacher charged with indecency
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    No offense intended, but I am not about to try to translate a web site in a language that I don't speak. So your URL really didn't give me any information!
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Does anyone feel strongly about the comments made by Yelena Isinbayeva

    I dont, I dont follow olympics and never heard of Yelena something-something.
    That really is a major disappointment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Does anyone feel strongly about the comments made by Yelena Isinbayeva

    I dont, I dont follow olympics and never heard of Yelena something-something.
    That really is a major disappointment.
    I have always loved sports and did gymnastics from age 8 to about 17.......I love watching the Olympics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    No offense intended, but I am not about to try to translate a web site in a language that I don't speak. So your URL really didn't give me any information!
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    Most likely not uncommon in the culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    A young Goulburn teacher has been arrested after allegedly making inappropriate comments to two 15-year-old students last week.
    I'm not sure why you posted that other than make some odd comparison between a teacher supporting in some way child-abuse and a history teacher actually teaching about the people who made that history (or were made by history). For example, it's simply irresponsible to teach about the Greek history without mentioning their sexuality in some fashion--it's a key component of their arts, culture and mythologies. Yet under the vague new propaganda laws a teacher might not even go as far as discuss the original Olympic games, the preparations for the battle of Thermopylae, or show a Greek wrestling sculpture out of fear that they might be charged with inferring that homosexuality is ok. (and we wonder why history is so damned boring to children?).
    To be honest, that stuff was never brought up in my high school. There was an official "sex education" class, but when studying Greek history, their sexual practices were never discussed.

    Besides that, honestly any attempt to get inside the bedrooms of an ancient culture is wildly speculative. It was not uncommon for leaders to smear each other with utterly inaccurate tales of scandal. Things believed precisely because they were unbelievable. Like consider how historians a thousand years from now might look at the stories that were spread about Catherine the Great of Russia during the Renaissance. For example the rumor which spread throughout all of France that she had died due to an accident while attempting to have sex with a horse, and it still often believed today by people who don't know better. (The truth is that she died of a stroke.)

    Catherine the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    What is your point?
    "Theatre whore"
    Wouldn't it have been simpler to just ask what the phrase means, rather than just posting a series of irrelevant links. Sheesh. (*)


    (*) Sheesh. Noun. An expression of exasperation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Could you provide me a citations regarding ancient sexuality from any regular U.S. or any "western" textbook for secondary school?
    It's an interesting sidebar that the American culture wars wage in children's text books today. Here's a short article that discusses it:
    How Texas Inflicts Bad Textbooks on Us by Gail Collins | The New York Review of Books
    Should this famous sculpture shown in a secondary school history or art class? My personal view is probably not in Middle School. But by High School it would be an excellent opportunity to discuss the Olympics, cultural views of Greek and Roman culture on nudity, and a bridge to the kids by comparing it to today's ultimate fighting contest. Under a general fuzzy laws in Russia though, it would be pretty easy to accuse the teacher of pushing homoerotic propaganda.
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    The American government has little authority to impose anything...it's mostly a State decisions even now (for good and bad). And even at that, State's usually stop at creating the standards of education and have little to do with creating the curriculum, that's left to the educators. I don't know how it works in Russia.

    Does teaching history increase productivity of society?
    It that all education is for? It would be a particularly narrow view not shared by most educators. But even at that it still captures much if we take its broadest interpretation to include the teaching of our own culture, other cultures, good citizenship, good mental and physical health etc. Denying that 3-5% of all humans are LBGT everywhere and seemingly in all times with various degrees of acceptance doesn't improve productivity and is directly against most concepts of basic human rights. Education is the appropriate lens and place to explore the many facets of this even if it means a next generation that turns out less bigoted and ignorant about the world than their parents.
    --

    Probably my last post in this thread. The bigotry and ignorance being expressed here is turning my stomach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    But by High School it would be an excellent opportunity to discuss the Olympics, cultural views of Greek and Roman culture on nudity, and a bridge to the kids by comparing it to today's ultimate fighting contest. Under a general fuzzy laws in Russia though, it would be pretty easy to accuse the teacher of pushing homoerotic propaganda.

    The above image is almost certainly counter-factual based on the writers of the era. It was uncommon for homosexual relations to be between two men of the same age and status. Pedophilia was much more common.

    Homosexuality in ancient Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    All the more reason I'd rather not let high school teachers go into it. The teachers' own bias often overshadows the real facts.


    Renaissance art can be found for many counterfactual historical claims, due to the simple fact that the people of the era had at least as limited a knowledge of the classical era as we have today.
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    ...Of course, after saying all that, then I found this.

    Homosexuality in the militaries of ancient Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It seems that sometimes homosexual bonds were used in the military with success.





    ....still, though...... Anything we try to say to a teenager about the Greeks will be entirely out of context. There's no way for us to really know what they were really about.

    We may know what they did, but we're only speculating when we try to get inside their heads and figure out why, or what it all meant. That's the kind of speculation best made outside of a classroom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    What is your point?
    "Theatre whore"
    If you don't know what it means, it really doesn't hurt to ASK the definition from the person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    ...but that's cheating
    Why Doctor Demon!! YOU MADE A JOKE!!

    I need smelling salts!!! *fainting daintily in some good looking man's arms* *chuckle*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    then members would know instantly where you stood politically.
    And where exactly? I'm ignorant about it. Could you provide similar precedents? I thought that indecent conversation with minors is part of criminal codex.
    As it should be. Informing young people about sexual matters so that they can make informed decisions, avoid predators and be tolerant of those with diverse views is not, in my vocabulary, indecent.
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    Applying Stanley514's educational standards could cause problems in many subjects:

    Biology: "Evolution theory is based on the reproductive success of different populations. Therefore I cannot tell you about it. Instead I will read you a story from Winnie the Pooh."

    History: "And then the King was overthrown by his illegitimate son. Illegitimate? I'm sorry, I can't answer that. There will be no more history lessons."

    Agriculture: "Bees are important for pollinating various crops. But I'm afraid I can't say any more about that. Class dismissed."

    Religious Studies: "And then Shem begat ... I'm sorry, this class is cancelled. Why not go and play outside. But please don't look at any of the plants or animals.".


    There was an episode of the popular TV show I Love Lucy in the 1950s where Lucille Ball (the main character) was pregnant. The studio would not allow the word "pregnant" to be used because this would suggest that she and her husband had had, you know, ... s*x. Gasp! Shock!

    I like to think the world has moved on a little since then. But in some places, apparently not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    It's easy, a gay student comes out of the closet, the teacher threatens him and parents with legal action...bullying.
    This is as much laughable as it is absurd. I can't imaging Russian teacher ever behaving like that.
    Sexuality is part of the human (and every other animal) experience--why shouldn't it be part of media.
    If we have the "age of consent" why should not it apply to media? Freedom of speech should not create a problem with freedom of choice. For example I find some type of content irritating and repulsive to me. I do NOT want to watch it on TV or on the street. And this content catch me unprepared, since I do not know when it will be shown. What I have to do? It's good if you have Internet and could watch movies on demand. But many people do not. The best solution would be allow people to watch, read or listen whatever they want, but do it on-demand and in special places, which do not irritate majority of people.
    Have you been paying any sort of attention to the Russian, or US for that matter, new in the last 20 years??? People are very notably bullied when they have come out. you thinking that it wouldnt happen does not change the nature of the world, which shows it happens appallingly regularly.
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    Applying it the other direction, I had a science teacher once show the class a film that consisted entirely of animals having sex. Like, rated X material, except not humans. It was quite horrifying. But he couldn't get in trouble because animal sex doesn't have a rating.

    If we really want children to understand that various (rumored) homosexual relationships that defined ancient history, all like um.... 5 of them? I suppose you could always go to the Adult Video store and get some videos from there. Then they'd understand the mechanics of where the various body parts connect. Just be careful not to inform the American authorities that you're showing an adult film to minors, because you know that is illegal in the USA.

    Maybe when we want them to understand an important battle, we should go out and find movie footage of people killing each other. (Oh wait... my mistake. That would likely be rated "R" and therefore illegal to show to minors without parental consent.)

    Maybe have some professional soldiers show up and show them how to kill each other in combat, crushing wind pipes and all that. Then admonish them to be careful not to use those techniques on each other the next time they have a fight on recess. Or we could mix some explosives in class, to make sure they understand how the various bombings in history could happen?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Denying that 3-5% of all humans are LBGT everywhere and seemingly in all times with various degrees of acceptance doesn't improve productivity and is directly against most concepts of basic human rights. Education is the appropriate lens and place to explore the many facets of this even if it means a next generation that turns out less bigoted and ignorant about the world than their parents.
    I do not exactly see what size of some community has necessarily to do with education. For example 1.5 billions of worlds population are Chinese. Shell we include studying Mandarin Chines in school programs? 1.1 billions of world population are Hindus. Shell we include Hindi lessons in school program as well? 1.5 billions of world population are muslims. And 20 millions in U.S. as well. Shell we include studying Koran in the schools? And if not, why exactly? Are you islamophob? 30 millions of people in U.S. belong to Baptist denominations... If some minorities are not satisfied we could create facultative lessons I suggest...
    The Russian law is being very purposely widely interpreted so that same sex couples holding hands, or wearing rainbow logoed shirts, or saying the term "LGBT" are all considered to have broken the law. It is clearly an implementation of the conservative orthodox church in Russia as an attempt to suppress or jail LGBT people and allies.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    And tomorrow society of nudists will approach government and will demand that nudism should be included in school program too, because school children should know that "nudists are also people". And there is plenty of them in the world - nudists. Definitely for this purpose every school class room should be equipped with naturalistic figures of naked men and woman indistinguishable from a real people. Should children 9-11 years old be bothered with some nudity and indecency only because insignificant part of population feels insecure and want it to happen? I guess it not a something that a regular parent in Russia and some other Eastern European countries will agree with, at least in a foreseeable future.
    This is a slippery slope argument and fallacious. Nudism, an active conscious decision, is not in any way comparable to being LGBT which is an innate characteristic of a person.

    Also statstics show definitively that areas which take an abstinence only or "parents only" approach to sex education have the highest rates of STDs and teen pregnancy, so your suggestion that "sex is evil stop talking about it" is one of the major problems.
    Last edited by Paleoichneum; August 28th, 2013 at 07:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    The Russian law is being very purposely widely interpreted so that same sex couples holding hands, or wearing rainbow logoed shirts, or saying the term "LGBT" are all considered to have broken the law.
    Could you give a link particularly about it?
    You have been given several links on it alread, here are three more

    the law will target Olympic players and tourists: Russia's Anti-Gay Law Will Impact Foreign Tourists, Possible Olympic Athletes: Report

    The law will not be suspended for the Olympics: Russia Will Not Suspend Anti-Gay Legislation For 2014 Sochi Olympic Games: Official

    The Olympic commity is uncertian of the laws and the Olympics: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3730925.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Applying it the other direction, I had a science teacher once show the class a film that consisted entirely of animals having sex. Like, rated X material, except not humans. It was quite horrifying.
    What frigging planet do you live on? What is horrifying about animals having sex? !!?##? I would have imagined that you don't object to watching animal documentaries where we see animals walking, running, sleeping, eating, socialising, but if it comes to having sex!!! Shock, horror - yes, it is horrifying!

    Let me share some background information with you. You are the consequence of more than half a billion years of sexual activity. Are you horrified?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Or we could get them to read your post to show them how to construct daft strawman arguments and hope they learn not to do it.
    Post 56 was meant as a response to post 53, which had also been a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Applying it the other direction, I had a science teacher once show the class a film that consisted entirely of animals having sex. Like, rated X material, except not humans. It was quite horrifying.
    What frigging planet do you live on? What is horrifying about animals having sex? !!?##? I would have imagined that you don't object to watching animal documentaries where we see animals walking, running, sleeping, eating, socialising, but if it comes to having sex!!! Shock, horror - yes, it is horrifying!

    Let me share some background information with you. You are the consequence of more than half a billion years of sexual activity. Are you horrified?
    Would you like to watch a video of your parents having sex?

    That is the sexual event that most particularly lead to your existence.


    My aversion to seeing animals having sex close up on camera should not be misconstrued as an aversion to them doing so. I'm happy for them to do so. I just prefer not to see it.
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    What did she say?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Would you like to watch a video of your parents having sex?

    That is the sexual event that most particularly lead to your existence.
    Strawman argument. We were talking about the pathology of your horror at seeing a documentary of animal procreation. You seem to have failed to realise that the film was almost certainly the educational authority's alternative to showing you human copulation as part of the sex education curriculum.

    My aversion to seeing animals having sex close up on camera should not be misconstrued as an aversion to them doing so. I'm happy for them to do so. I just prefer not to see it.
    There is a difference between preferring not to see it and being horrified by it. I can accept the former as a matter of personal taste. The latter encourages one to falll into the realm of amateur psychology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Would you like to watch a video of your parents having sex?

    That is the sexual event that most particularly lead to your existence.
    Strawman argument.
    Let's look at the full quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by Kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt


    Let me share some background information with you. You are the consequence of more than half a billion years of sexual activity. Are you horrified?
    Would you like to watch a video of your parents having sex?

    That is the sexual event that most particularly lead to your existence.
    If it was a strawman, then it was a strawman response to a strawman.

    I am the product of a half billion years of sexual activity, and that means I should not be horrified to see it? Hmmm.... would you like to see the last step in that process (your parents having sex)?

    By your own logic that last step should not horrify you.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    My aversion to seeing animals having sex close up on camera should not be misconstrued as an aversion to them doing so. I'm happy for them to do so. I just prefer not to see it.
    There is a difference between preferring not to see it and being horrified by it. I can accept the former as a matter of personal taste. The latter encourages one to falll into the realm of amateur psychology.
    You must understand that at that age, growing up Mormon, I hadn't been exposed to anything like that before. Neither human, nor animal. The film was very graphic. And sadly not entertaining either. (Watching animals go at it is about as entertaining as watching the ugliest humans you ever saw go at it.)

    I think you make a good point that it would be an ingenious way to teach the subject for a sex ed class, though. Unfortunately it was just for a general science class. If it were sex ed, I bet most of the students would be so grossed out they wouldn't even look at the opposite sex for a week or two after.
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    I always thought tht people"who liked to watch" were a tad on the kinky side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Would you like to watch a video of your parents having sex?

    That is the sexual event that most particularly lead to your existence.
    Strawman argument.
    Let's look at the full quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by Kojax
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt


    Let me share some background information with you. You are the consequence of more than half a billion years of sexual activity. Are you horrified?
    Would you like to watch a video of your parents having sex?

    That is the sexual event that most particularly lead to your existence.
    If it was a strawman, then it was a strawman response to a strawman.

    I am the product of a half billion years of sexual activity? Hmmm.... would you like to see the last hour of that process (your parents having sex)?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    My aversion to seeing animals having sex close up on camera should not be misconstrued as an aversion to them doing so. I'm happy for them to do so. I just prefer not to see it.
    There is a difference between preferring not to see it and being horrified by it. I can accept the former as a matter of personal taste. The latter encourages one to falll into the realm of amateur psychology.
    You must understand that at that age, growing up Mormon, I hadn't been exposed to anything like that before. Neither human, nor animal. The film was very graphic. And sadly not entertaining either. (Watching animals go at it is about as entertaining as watching the ugliest humans you ever saw go at it.)

    I think you make a good point that it would be an ingenious way to teach the subject for a sex ed class, though. Unfortunately it was just for a general science class. If it were sex ed, I bet most of the students would be so grossed out they wouldn't even look at the opposite sex for a week or two after.
    Did you live in an Urban/city setting? Living in a rural area, I had already seen hundreds, perhaps thousands, of instances of animal procreation before any sort of biology class. Cattle, deer, birds, pets, etc.
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    Watching animals go at it is about as entertaining as watching the ugliest humans you ever saw go at it.
    I had already seen hundreds, perhaps thousands, of instances of animal procreation before any sort of biology class.

    This is even more disturbing than the naked statues of humans, are you saying that there are nudist animals parading around without any clothes where you live? It should be censored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    This is a slipper slope argument and fallacious. Nudism, an active conscious decision
    I do not claim that nudists are inferior or nudism should be illegal. They have right to make their choice. And nudists could say : "walking naked is naturally to human because Adam was born naked and those who descended from monkeys walked naked for millions of years. Therefore it is natural to human to walk naked in the streets, public places etc." Therefore I'm not attempting to tell that nudists should be ignored because they are "wrong". I just do not see why education system should expose children to some nudity and indecency just to demonstrate some "natural things".
    I said nothing about nudism being illegal. And saying that people are actively trying to introduce nudism to the school curriculum is a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    is not in any way comparable to being LGBT which is an innate characteristic of a person.
    How do you know it exactly and could you give some proofs of it?
    nudism is an active decision made by someone. The gender and orientation of a person is innate. I can say this for certain as a gay man, and from the hundreds of thousands of other LGBT people who have NEVER decided to be LGBT. This is science we dont deal in "proofs". we deal in evidence and the evidence is quite clear. what are you specifically looking for me to provide that you yourself cant find?


    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Also statstics show definitively that areas which take an abstinence only or "parents only" approach to sex education have the highest rates of STDs and teen pregnancy, so your suggestion that "sex is evil stop talking about it" is one of the major problems.
    I'm not against to inform children who are over certain age about contraceptives, and urgency to avoid undesirable pregnancy and venereal diseases. Desirably it should be done by patient and qualified psychologist. But this info could be brief and decent and I do not see what does it have with sexual preferences of people. You just have to tell children that "every person should use contraceptives and venereal diseases could spread from any person to any other person and not even through sex only".
    Qualified psychologist? You expect teens that are interested in sex to see a psychologist? Sex education already avoids orientation, but that is part of the problem, it is left up to LGBT teens to figure out the precautions and steps involved in same-sex intercourse. Its not enough to say "sex should be safe" but we will NOT talk about any details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    But what relation does it have an Ancient Greeks and other absurdity...
    I said nothing about Greeks (the relevance is NOT absurd though).

    Out of curiosity what age range ARE you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    You have been given several links on it already, here are three more
    I requested you to provide link about some precedent that already happened and not some assumptions based on horror fairy tales.
    Show that they are "horror fairy tales". Show that you actually read the articles.

    *Tourists are already being arrested under the new law: Dutch Tourists Jailed Under Russia's 'Gay Propaganda' Law
    *The Russian administration is actively anti-LGBT: Dmitri Kisilev, Russian Official, Degrades Gays On National Television
    *The administration has specifically stated the law will be enforced during the Olympics: Vitaly Mutko, Russian Sports Minister, Says Anti-Gay Laws Will Be Upheld At Sochi Olympics
    *The Russian government already has a history of LGBT oppression: Russia Gay Rights Rally Ends In Activists' Arrest
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Qualified psychologist? You expect teens that are interested in sex to see a psychologist? Sex education already avoids orientation, but that is part of the problem, it is left up to LGBT teens to figure out the precautions and steps involved in same-sex intercourse. Its not enough to say "sex should be safe" but we will NOT talk about any details.
    What is concerning to teaching children how to use contraceptives I suggest it would be more appropriate to be done by medical personal including podiatrists and psychologists who could come to a school or welcome children in their cabinets for private conversation.
    Psychiatrists are mental health professionals, podiatrists are specialists in feet. Why the hell are either of them giving sex talks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    People without medical/psychological education may be less appropriate for a such task.
    WHY? Why would they be less up to the task when it involves addressing basic sex education? Giving basic sex ed requires no more knowledge then a basic understanding of biology. The onus is on you to show that the topic is too complex to be addressed to Jr high students as it currently is in many parts of the country. What are YOU afraid is going to happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Possibly such conversations would be better to hold individually. I do not see even closely necessity to tell difference between different type of sexual relations and "compare their social value" as the Russian law tells.
    again why? and who said ANYTHING about "comparing social value" Another of your strawmen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Sorry but children (let's say over 12 years old) should be really stupid to think that some type of intercourse requires contraceptives, but others of the same type do not.
    NO they are not, they just have NEVER had anyt sort of introducation to the topic yet and have NO background knowledge of the subject. Its is foolish and ignorant to suggest otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Or go in too much details about intercourse itself.
    Bull, the more that is known about how basic sex works the better prepared they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Sorry, but if children are innately know what type of sexual relations they need, then it doesn't need father explanations.
    I did not say they know how to have sex innately. I said they know the gender they are mentally and the orientation they are. YOU are the one that apparently thinks the only thing at LGBT means is sex. That is utter bull also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    The gender and orientation of a person is innate. I can say this for certain as a gay man, and from the hundreds of thousands of other LGBT people who have NEVER decided to be LGBT. This is science we don't deal in "proofs".
    Very well, so if this is innate then you should agree that heterosexual people should have innate misunderstanding of same sex relations and hence rejection of it on psychological (underconscious) level. In this case there is no sense to bombard "straight" people with LGBT messages constantly, it will cause only misunderstanding and rejection and growing irritation. Somebody could think that poor working people in Russia have no other troubles. What is then a sense to do it?
    NO i do not agree with that assertion at all, and the very large majority of people my age demographic and younger do not agree. Your innate reaction is quite clearly an "ewww gross, hide it, hide it" reaction based on having no knowledge of LGBT people.

    I am not bombarding anyone. every day LGBT people are bombarded with heteronormative messages from all front, but anytime an LGBT couple tries to do the smae thing a hetro couople does (hold hands or enjoy dinner together) they are told they are "flaunting"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Very well, so if this is innate then you should agree that heterosexual people should have innate misunderstanding of same sex relations and hence rejection of it on psychological (underconscious) level.
    No normal person would agree with such an idiotic statement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    You have been given several links on it already, here are three more
    I requested you to provide link about some precedent that already happened and not some assumptions based on horror fairy tales.
    Show that they are "horror fairy tales". Show that you actually read the articles.

    *Tourists are already being arrested under the new law: Dutch Tourists Jailed Under Russia's 'Gay Propaganda' Law
    *The Russian administration is actively anti-LGBT: Dmitri Kisilev, Russian Official, Degrades Gays On National Television
    *The administration has specifically stated the law will be enforced during the Olympics: Vitaly Mutko, Russian Sports Minister, Says Anti-Gay Laws Will Be Upheld At Sochi Olympics
    *The Russian government already has a history of LGBT oppression: Russia Gay Rights Rally Ends In Activists' Arrest

    I think a lot of Americans share in the desire not to have to have to put up with gay rights rallies. They just don't take it as far as the Russians I guess. Gay rallies are just annoying (not so much so that they deserve to be illegal but...... one might sometimes wish). Whatever someone wants to do in their bedroom is fine with me. However, I don't really want to hear about it.

    As a general rule.... if a person doesn't share your particular sexual fetish (chubby chasing, g-milfs, bondage, cosplay, odd fluids...) They probably also don't want to hear about it.

    I think that most heterosexual people are disgusted by homosexuality. Not horrified. Not utterly revolted, but disgusted. It would be polite not to continually annoy people by telling them all about something they find disgusting.

    It would be like if your favorite food were dog vomit. And so you go around telling everyone all the interesting recipes you have found for preparing dog vomit. Then wear a T-shirt that says "I eat dog vomit!!!", and go march in a parade to celebrate dog-vomit-eater's rights.

    I know it shouldn't be illegal....... but you really can't blame the population for getting tired of it and wanting to express their annoyance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Did you live in an Urban/city setting? Living in a rural area, I had already seen hundreds, perhaps thousands, of instances of animal procreation before any sort of biology class. Cattle, deer, birds, pets, etc.

    Living in the city I've also seen people urinate in public. Portland, Oregon is a place that prides itself on weirdness. I'm surprised I haven't seen quite a lot of other things you can't show in a Rated PG movie.

    A movie can become rated R just because they say "Fuck" too many times. And we've already established that laws have been passed in at least one state of the USA, that prohibit the showing of a rated R movie to minors without parental consent.
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    I was just watching this French movie called "Farewell" set in the Soviet Era, which is about a KGB Colonel who began leaking information to French Intelligence. Anyway, one of the things the Colonel requested as recompense was a cassette tape of "Queen", for his son because it wasn't available in Communist Russia.

    Queen was openly gay..... so..... under this law I wonder if their music would become illegal in Russia again?
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    [QUOTE=kojax;455689]
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I think a lot of Americans share in the desire not to have to have to put up with gay rights rallies. They just don't take it as far as the Russians I guess. Gay rallies are just annoying (not so much so that they deserve to be illegal but...... one might sometimes wish). Whatever someone wants to do in their bedroom is fine with me. However, I don't really want to hear about it.
    Ahh, yes, because having the exact same days in the form of St Patricks day, Mardi gras, Carnvial, or just the everyday of Vegas is fine, but one day a year to celebrate the LGBT community is too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    As a general rule.... if a person doesn't share your particular sexual fetish (chubby chasing, g-milfs, bondage, cosplay, odd fluids...) They probably also don't want to hear about it.
    We are NOT forcing anything about our sex lives on you Kojax, you are the one who is automatically equating LGBT to guy/guy sex. The LGBT rights movement is about having the came civil rights as hetosexual couple have, and the heterosexual people have.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I think that most heterosexual people are disgusted by homosexuality. Not horrified. Not utterly revolted, but disgusted. It would be polite not to continually annoy people by telling them all about something they find disgusting.
    YOU think that, now provide the actual supporting statistics that support your assertion, YOU think is NOT valid evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    It would be like if your favorite food were dog vomit. And so you go around telling everyone all the interesting recipes you have found for preparing dog vomit. Then wear a T-shirt that says "I eat dog vomit!!!", and go march in a parade to celebrate dog-vomit-eater's rights.
    NO. In no way is it the same thing, and the fact that you think its a valid comparison is very sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I know it shouldn't be illegal....... but you really can't blame the population for getting tired of it and wanting to express their annoyance.
    So it shouldnt be illegal, but I should crawl back into my closet of self hate and not be seen by polite people like you?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Bull, the more that is known about how basic sex works the better prepared they are.
    So, could you tell which exactly info, materials and phrases on LGBT should be better included by government in school material? How often, what exactly and at which age children suppose to hear something about it? Maybe it does not goes in contradiction even with new Russian law?
    Do YOU even know what material is in current sex education classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    The gender and orientation of a person is innate.
    I'm not interested to disprove this statement but have some questions regarding it: 1) It was remarked many times and there is tons of evidence that in many places and cases when heterosexual men cannot live with normal to them sexual life they resort to the same sex relations.
    By whom is this reported/asserted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Practically majority of prisons. I heard something about School of Eton in England which at certain time was male-only institution. Many other schools for boys only. Often homosexuality is practiced as sort of evil game and part of "initiation" process for younger people in such schools. If sexual orientation is innate only, why do they do all this activities?
    Ahhh, so hearsay, situations where heterosexual release and major dominance hierarchy structures exist, not open areas where RAPE isnt the only option. And its very important to note that ALL the situations you have listed are either hersay or cases of rape, not mutual consent between to people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    2) Do you believe there is some genes of homosexuality which strictly program a person for same sex attraction? If yes, how many presents of people are carriers?
    Its not genes that are the major factor, its more and more evident that the homone/amniotic fluid conditions in the womb play the major part in orientation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    3) A bit on philosophy. Do you believe that a person who feels some urgencies to do something, he/she needs always do this activity? For example I feel urgence dictated by nature to walk naked. Should I always walk naked everywhere?
    If you are convinced that its is a choice, what SPECIFIC day di you choose to be attracted to women? What was you thought process where you weighed attraction to women with attraction to men and decided women were who you liked more? Also show its a choice and spend the next week being actively attracted to men, since you can choose what you want to be attracted to.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    As a general rule.... if a person doesn't share your particular sexual fetish (chubby chasing, g-milfs, bondage, cosplay, odd fluids...) They probably also don't want to hear about it.
    We are NOT forcing anything about our sex lives on you Kojax, you are the one who is automatically equating LGBT to guy/guy sex. The LGBT rights movement is about having the came civil rights as hetosexual couple have, and the heterosexual people have.
    Ok. Well.... since that's already been achieved, you can stop now.



    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I think that most heterosexual people are disgusted by homosexuality. Not horrified. Not utterly revolted, but disgusted. It would be polite not to continually annoy people by telling them all about something they find disgusting.
    YOU think that, now provide the actual supporting statistics that support your assertion, YOU think is NOT valid evidence.
    I stated it as my opinion. Admittedly I am a sample set of one. And even if I went out and did a proper study there'd be no way to be sure the results weren't tainted by popular or religious bias.

    But..... where do you think the past mistreatment came from? You honestly think it's 100% pure religious zeal? Nothing else? The preacher said it's bad, so people persecute?

    Preacher said it's bad to do a lot of things. I don't see all the "sinners" getting persecuted. Just some of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    It would be like if your favorite food were dog vomit. And so you go around telling everyone all the interesting recipes you have found for preparing dog vomit. Then wear a T-shirt that says "I eat dog vomit!!!", and go march in a parade to celebrate dog-vomit-eater's rights.
    NO. In no way is it the same thing, and the fact that you think its a valid comparison is very sad.
    I think you project a lot of ulterior motives onto the heterosexual majority. Some kind of paranoia perhaps?

    The simplest answer is often the correct one. That it simply looks disgusting to them and so it offends their sense of decency.

    It reminds me of watching "Home Alone" the first time, where the kid finds his older brother's nude magazines. And of course he hasn't reached puberty yet, so he thinks that it's just disgusting to see so many naked people without any clothes on them.

    I think if your hormones don't align in such a manner as to cause you to find an image arousing, you probably wouldn't see the same beauty in it as what someone else might see.



    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I know it shouldn't be illegal....... but you really can't blame the population for getting tired of it and wanting to express their annoyance.
    So it shouldnt be illegal, but I should crawl back into my closet of self hate and not be seen by polite people like you?

    It's not self hatred to be discreet.

    Do you want to see pimpled heterosexual teenagers telling everyone about their masturbation sessions?

    Maybe have a few masturbation marches? Teenagers with T-shirts that say "I masturbate and I'm proud!!!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    This is a slipper slope argument and fallacious. Nudism, an active conscious decision
    I do not claim that nudists are inferior or nudism should be illegal. They have right to make their choice. And nudists could say : "walking naked is naturally to human because Adam was born naked and those who descended from monkeys walked naked for millions of years. Therefore it is natural to human to walk naked in the streets, public places etc." Therefore I'm not attempting to tell that nudists should be ignored because they are "wrong". I just do not see why education system should expose children to some nudity and indecency just to demonstrate some "natural things".
    is not in any way comparable to being LGBT which is an innate characteristic of a person.
    How do you know it exactly and could you give some proofs of it?
    Also statstics show definitively that areas which take an abstinence only or "parents only" approach to sex education have the highest rates of STDs and teen pregnancy, so your suggestion that "sex is evil stop talking about it" is one of the major problems.
    I'm not against to inform children who are over certain age about contraceptives, and urgency to avoid undesirable pregnancy and venereal diseases. Desirably it should be done by patient and qualified psychologist. But this info could be brief and decent and I do not see what does it have with sexual preferences of people. You just have to tell children that "every person should use contraceptives and venereal diseases could spread from any person to any other person and not even through sex only". But what relation does it have an Ancient Greeks and other absurdity...
    I was quite capable of informing my children of unwanted pregnancy and STD's without a professional psychologist of any kind. That was MY responsibility as their parent and not some freaking psychologist's!! I also had no problem with sex education being taught in schools.

    Kids on farms see animals having sex all the time! They don't come out damaged from the experience. IT IS NOT DIRTY!

    As for being naked. Well, we were born that way.

    I love swimming naked in the ocean and I do not wear a swimsuit in my pool, when I do laps, nor does my husband.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    2) Do you believe there is some genes of homosexuality which strictly program a person for same sex attraction? If yes, how many presents of people are carriers?
    Its not genes that are the major factor, its more and more evident that the homone/amniotic fluid conditions in the womb play the major part in orientation.
    As much as I've looked for one, I have never yet been able to find a study that conclusively showed a biological cause.

    If you know of one, could you please share it?




    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    3) A bit on philosophy. Do you believe that a person who feels some urgencies to do something, he/she needs always do this activity? For example I feel urgence dictated by nature to walk naked. Should I always walk naked everywhere?
    If you are convinced that its is a choice, what SPECIFIC day di you choose to be attracted to women? What was you thought process where you weighed attraction to women with attraction to men and decided women were who you liked more? Also show its a choice and spend the next week being actively attracted to men, since you can choose what you want to be attracted to.
    I'm really more convinced of emotional reasons. It's emotion, more than sex drive, that motivates heterosexual love. A person can become aroused by the exhaust pipe of a car if they have an emotional reason for it.

    Prison rape quite often takes the form of one man sodomizing another, but once they're on the outside most of the prison population is heterosexual. (In other words, heterosexual men often rape one another in prison, despite being heterosexual.) Emotionally a need is certainly being satisfied (the need for dominance.) and the body is reacting to that emotional need.


    To name a genetic cause just cheapens the whole issue of love.

    If it's all down to libido, then how would you explain people who mate for life? Staying together into advanced age, as their bodies gradually turn into shriveled shadows of their youth? A rich enough man can nail a young, beautiful woman no matter how old he is, yet many rich men choose not to.
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    Everyone I know who is gay, have always been gay.

    Went to high school with a couple of gay men. It was pretty clear they were born that way.

    Which is what I believe about GLT Etc.

    I love my gay friends, both male and female.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I think that most heterosexual people are disgusted by homosexuality. Not horrified. Not utterly revolted, but disgusted.
    I find that an extraordinary claim. Got any evidence (extraordinary or otherwise)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    but one day a year to celebrate the LGBT community is too much?
    Pardon for curiosity, but what exactly to celebrate in there?
    Can you explain what you mean by that question?
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    Why would anyone be DISGUSTED by homosexuality?
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    Maybe "disgust" isn't the right word. It evokes the feeling you get when a very very fat person, with lots of cellulite, lays on the beach in a g-string to sunbathe.

    Seeing that isn't a life defining horrible event. It's somewhat unpleasant, but if you look away then usually the image doesn't stay with you for long. Not something you want to see all the time either, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Maybe "disgust" isn't the right word. It evokes the feeling you get when a very very fat person, with lots of cellulite, lays on the beach in a g-string to sunbathe.

    Seeing that isn't a life defining horrible event. It's somewhat unpleasant, but if you look away then usually the image doesn't stay with you for long. Not something you want to see all the time either, though.
    Jesus. This sounds like your own problem, that your are projecting on to "most" people.

    Have you considered professional help?
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    I'm only thinking this about guy on guy sex. Lesbian sex is..... well... a little bit more interesting...
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    And another one goes on the ignore list. The first for being grossly offensive. Congratulations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Ok. Well.... since that's already been achieved, you can stop now.
    Oh really? I have the opportunity to have my marriage to equally recognized and respected in every one of the 50 states, and no state bans same sex marriage now? And there are no more people that call me disgusting if i was to hold hands or kiss my partner in publc?


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I stated it as my opinion. Admittedly I am a sample set of one. And even if I went out and did a proper study there'd be no way to be sure the results weren't tainted by popular or religious bias.

    But..... where do you think the past mistreatment came from? You honestly think it's 100% pure religious zeal? Nothing else? The preacher said it's bad, so people persecute?

    Preacher said it's bad to do a lot of things. I don't see all the "sinners" getting persecuted. Just some of them.
    Yes the vast majority of it is due to religious zeal. Prior to the late 1800s to early 1900s LGBT relations were not nearly so stigmatized. With the rise of bible literalism religious animus to LGBT people skyrocketed, and with the communist witch-hunts in the 50s LGBT people were painted as just as bad as commies.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I think you project a lot of ulterior motives onto the heterosexual majority. Some kind of paranoia perhaps?

    The simplest answer is often the correct one. That it simply looks disgusting to them and so it offends their sense of decency.

    It reminds me of watching "Home Alone" the first time, where the kid finds his older brother's nude magazines. And of course he hasn't reached puberty yet, so he thinks that it's just disgusting to see so many naked people without any clothes on them.

    I think if your hormones don't align in such a manner as to cause you to find an image arousing, you probably wouldn't see the same beauty in it as what someone else might see.
    And you still dont understand that what I do in the bedroom is NOT who I am as a person. SEX SEX SEX is all you can think of when LGBT conversations come up isnt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    It's not self hatred to be discreet.

    Do you want to see pimpled heterosexual teenagers telling everyone about their masturbation sessions?

    Maybe have a few masturbation marches? Teenagers with T-shirts that say "I masturbate and I'm proud!!!"
    Again, sex sex sex with you. Me holding hands, giving my husband a kiss, or having his picture at my desk is the SAME level of "advertisement" that every heterosexual person gets to do every day. And is much LESS then many do. YOU want LGBT people to go back into the closet so you can pretend we dont exist at all.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post

    As much as I've looked for one, I have never yet been able to find a study that conclusively showed a biological cause.

    If you know of one, could you please share it?
    Biology and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm really more convinced of emotional reasons. It's emotion, more than sex drive, that motivates heterosexual love. A person can become aroused by the exhaust pipe of a car if they have an emotional reason for it.

    Prison rape quite often takes the form of one man sodomizing another, but once they're on the outside most of the prison population is heterosexual. (In other words, heterosexual men often rape one another in prison, despite being heterosexual.) Emotionally a need is certainly being satisfied (the need for dominance.) and the body is reacting to that emotional need.


    To name a genetic cause just cheapens the whole issue of love.

    If it's all down to libido, then how would you explain people who mate for life? Staying together into advanced age, as their bodies gradually turn into shriveled shadows of their youth? A rich enough man can nail a young, beautiful woman no matter how old he is, yet many rich men choose not to.
    So you are asserting that LGBT people show NO emotional attraction/attachment to the people they choose to spend there lives with. Its alllllllll just about the sex and what gets us horny that second?

    BULLSH*T

    And I will ask you Kojax the same question:
    If you are convinced that its is a choice, what SPECIFIC day did you choose to be attracted to women? What was you thought process where you weighed attraction to women with attraction to men and decided women were who you liked more? Also show its a choice and spend the next week being actively attracted to men, since you can choose what you want to be attracted to.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Its not genes that are the major factor, its more and more evident that the homone/amniotic fluid conditions in the womb play the major part in orientation.
    Link to a study? Any theorization on how exactly it could program sexual orientation? Homone/amniotic fluid conditions in the womb are not genetically predetermined and purely accidental? Or what exactly the point of a study? And what percentage of population (at least) are innate gay?
    but one day a year to celebrate the LGBT community is too much?
    Pardon for curiosity, but what exactly to celebrate in there?
    Heres a place for you to start:
    Biology and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Why shouldn't we celebrate who we are?

    Im still waiting for a response to this question:
    If you are convinced that its is a choice, what SPECIFIC day di you choose to be attracted to women? What was you thought process where you weighed attraction to women with attraction to men and decided women were who you liked more? Also show its a choice and spend the next week being actively attracted to men, since you can choose what you want to be attracted to.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Maybe "disgust" isn't the right word. It evokes the feeling you get when a very very fat person, with lots of cellulite, lays on the beach in a g-string to sunbathe.

    Seeing that isn't a life defining horrible event. It's somewhat unpleasant, but if you look away then usually the image doesn't stay with you for long. Not something you want to see all the time either, though.
    Really? so you think we should all go back into the closets of shame and not be seen you "right" society? Just because kojax may get mental pictures of me and my BF in bed?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm only thinking this about guy on guy sex. Lesbian sex is..... well... a little bit more interesting...
    It really is allllllllll about sex for you, and you are showing the typical hypocrisy of "Ewww guy on guy, but OH may I watch the chick on chick, that makes me horny."
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  99. #98  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    What I find interesting to know if how sexual orientation and any kind of sexual behaviour could be programmed in human brain. Any theorizing on the subject. From what I found in wiki:
    The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has stated "some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime".[160] A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states: "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time".[161] One study has suggested "considerable fluidity in bisexual, unlabeled, and lesbian women's attractions, behaviors, and identities".[162][163]
    Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    What exactly do you mean when you use the term "programmed"
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  100. #99  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    I often feel like Im watching a movie set in the 1800 or connected to an alternate dimension when I read posts on the internet, its so unreal, its hard to relate.

    The purple teletuby being gay. Wow. Astounding.


    "I find that an extraordinary claim. Got any evidence (extraordinary or otherwise)?"

    Anyway, dont forget that we have people on earth living like cavemen, and conservatives have views that are similar to what existed decades or even centuries ago, not everyone up to par, if you go back in time and talk to someone in the middle ages, you cant assume what you tell them makes sense to them just out of hand, or that they "chose" to have prejudice that is prevalent in their culture (or that they are bad persons for reflecting views that are ubiquitous in their social environment).

    That means that for someone raised in a conservative/homophobic environment, the disguss/fear/madness/etc they feel when they see something like two man kissing is genuine. They will get around over time.

    When someone says 'most people are disgusted' , what they are actually saying is, 'in my sub-culture where I live, from my point of view, ...' in places where people are not disgusted, if you took a time machine and regressed and went back in time, you would end up in a time where the views expressed by conservatives are common.

    (But Im guilty myself, for some unknown reason, I dont like seeing men on men things, but strangely, good looking women on women is exciting, heh, go figure. )


    (BTW, the labels heterosexual and homosexual are a bit simplistic)
    Last edited by icewendigo; August 29th, 2013 at 11:21 AM.
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  101. #100  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    What I find interesting to know if how sexual orientation and any kind of sexual behaviour could be programmed in human brain.
    I have similar interests in the origin and programming of right-wing bigots.
    Strange, adelady and PhDemon like this.
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